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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.10.18 10:28:00 -
[31]
- definatly no locking while cloaking
ECM takes cap, but not as much (exept multispectrals). Even with 10% cap you can still easily jam a target - this would make ECM even more unbalanced.
- not present in local, not present in scanner
A must, otherwise the device is useless. On a sidenote, IMO the presence in the local chat should be optional, since it makes any coordinated attacks pretty much impossible. Any massing of ships is detected immediatly.
- warping while cloaking
should be possible, but a pain in the ass. Let the 90% speed reduction be active while warping as well (and not reduceable - I would rather use the skill to decrease the range a ship has to come near you in order to detect you). If you warp with 0.2 au/sec cloaking will never become a must have travel acessory.
- no cloaking within 20 (30? 50?)km of a gate
Caused by the gate's radiation or whatever. To prevent people making undetectable instajumps.
- time to cloak should be 3 minutes (in which you cannot move), so it doesn't becomes an instant fleeing device in battles
free speech not allowed here |
Klydor
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Posted - 2003.10.18 12:01:00 -
[32]
Ana: I agree on all but the no targetting while cloaked. I think you should be able to target but any offensive action should render you visible. Such as ECM, Firing, Draining their cap etc
The code to detect offensive actions is already in game so we know it is possilbe. With this setup you could cloak and scan ships that pass and relay information to others. But you cannot use ecm or fire without decloaking.
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Zeus
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Posted - 2003.10.18 14:44:00 -
[33]
Another point I'd like to bring up is the inability to cloak when you are being targeted by a player or npc. This also makes the cloak abit useless. Since cloaking is also basically used to hide under extreme circumstances you will never be able to cloak again in a battle until you've won. It is true though that being able to break a lock of a player by cloaking without some counter is abit unfair. Once again I see the possibility for skill or module content here! *HINT*
Another sticky issue is cloaking while targeting something your self, you have to manually unlock your target first instead of it being done for you when you simply click cloak. These simple mouse clicks and seconds can mean life or death in a battle.
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Edward Preble
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Posted - 2003.10.18 19:51:00 -
[34]
I don't think that cloaking is useless, even with the current situation. 2-3 pirate cruisers wait at a gate; and a ship arrives, and they decloak and open up on it. Although the indy pilot may see a few people insystem, it's not a large fleet, so they may approach the gate. Without anyone visible, they can approach it without using warp lag to escape. Cruisers then decloak and ambush--they'll be at a disadvantage, but with a little coordination 3 cruisers with that disadvantage could still take on a battleship.
People are complaining that it won't be an effective fleet combat tool because you can't have 13 ships waiting silently--GOOD. The consquences of such actions would place way too much power in the hands of such fleets. Alliances like CFS or SA or CA could field fleets of 10-15 ships and ambush every enemy that came along.
In short, I think people are expecting it to be applied to more of the game than it should be. This shouldn't be an escape tool (we've got MWD for that) so not being able to cloak while someone has a firm lock on you is fine (and makes sense). It should be an ambush tool--but one that leaves the ambusher in a bit of a bind, forcing them to change tactics and make a cost benefit analysis.
As such, I think the current model assist small teams of raiders, which is excellent. I hope that signature radius will be directly tied to the effectiveness of cloaking--ie., you see a Merlin at 1km, but you'll see a battleship at 10-30km. It should be much, much easier to cloak small ships than large ships like battleships and indies.
Edward Preble
Coalition of Free Stars
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Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.10.18 20:18:00 -
[35]
 Quote:
Ana: I agree on all but the no targetting while cloaked. I think you should be able to target but any offensive action should render you visible. Such as ECM, Firing, Draining their cap etc
The code to detect offensive actions is already in game so we know it is possilbe. With this setup you could cloak and scan ships that pass and relay information to others. But you cannot use ecm or fire without decloaking.
Following scenario:
You fly towards a gate and from 1 sec to another you are ecm'ed, webbed and scrambled. And a scorp is uncloaking because he was using ECM. Big deal - you cannot do anything now anyway, he could as well have stayed cloaked for all the difference it made.
Sure , you could use warp stabs and/or MWD, but the scorp can easily have counters for those, 2 7.5k scrambler, 2 webber and 4 racespecific ECM and your anti-equipment very likely won't help you.
If you are able to lock while cloaked you have a almost completly failsafe gatecamper.
Nevermind that your argument with the ship scanner has a maior loophole. Every tried one? It is LOUD - if someone is scanning you with one you'll hear it. And it's operating range is pretty low 1-2 km - a ship will very likely see through your cloak before you scan it.
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Zeus
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Posted - 2003.10.19 01:40:00 -
[36]
It takes time to decloak and you cant target right away currently. I'm sure ccp can add a small delay of afew seconds like this before you can activate modules and such but not to long. If you get cought after that its your fault for being asleep on the job.
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.10.19 12:01:00 -
[37]
Quote:
- definatly no locking while cloaking
ECM takes cap, but not as much (exept multispectrals). Even with 10% cap you can still easily jam a target - this would make ECM even more unbalanced.
- not present in local, not present in scanner
A must, otherwise the device is useless. On a sidenote, IMO the presence in the local chat should be optional, since it makes any coordinated attacks pretty much impossible. Any massing of ships is detected immediatly.
- warping while cloaking
should be possible, but a pain in the ass. Let the 90% speed reduction be active while warping as well (and not reduceable - I would rather use the skill to decrease the range a ship has to come near you in order to detect you). If you warp with 0.2 au/sec cloaking will never become a must have travel acessory.
- no cloaking within 20 (30? 50?)km of a gate
Caused by the gate's radiation or whatever. To prevent people making undetectable instajumps.
- time to cloak should be 3 minutes (in which you cannot move), so it doesn't becomes an instant fleeing device in battles
1. People dont check local very often.
The fact that pirates still kill tons of people at 1 location indicates that people dont check local and the map.
2. Warping during cloacked is a big no no in my eyes, only shield modules should be active.
3.
I agree no cloacking within gate radius, but for another reason. So on your point i disagree because: The speed atm is 15m/s while cloacked. It would take AGES to get to a gate, this is the reward for beeing so patient and the EXTREME loss of time.
4. Its not an instant fleeing device in battles now, because when you lock, or get locked at this moment on test you will not be able to cloack. However you can consider it as a tactical device in combat to escape indeed: In combination with ecm you can disable the lock on you so you can flee for a larger force. Not a bad thing imho.
- Overview of my testing on CHAOS -
Version 1259:
Cloacking at the moment is bugged, if you recloack, decloack and so on... You will not be able to warp away, use weapons, dock, or move fast what so ever... While you are still visible, your shield + cap is down however.. A big bug imho.
Cloacking is a good device at the moment on chaos:
Need high skills to use it (good)
Loss of shield + cap = good. Doesnt make it a pet module for caldari's then right away.
Loss of speed = great
Shouldnt dock, warp, lock, warp = great.
This device is VERY limited as it should be.
It can be VERY dangerous and unbalanced without current limitations.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.10.19 14:07:00 -
[38]
Sorry, but the only people who are not aware of the local channel are noobs or in a high sec system. Any halfway experienced player has always an eye on local - at least if he's mining/hunting in the outback.
Ambushing a mining ops of a rival corp is impossible that way, they will see at once if there's a maior force forming in their system due to local chat.
free speech not allowed here |
xeno calligan
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Posted - 2003.10.19 14:07:00 -
[39]
Edited by: xeno calligan on 19/10/2003 14:10:20
Quote:
2. Warping during cloacked is a big no no in my eyes, only shield modules should be active.
3. I agree no cloacking within gate radius, but for another reason. So on your point i disagree because: The speed atm is 15m/s while cloacked. It would take AGES to get to a gate, this is the reward for beeing so patient and the EXTREME loss of time.
- I think it should be possible to warp while cloaked. As I see it, the cloaking device is currently good for two things: camping and fleeing. It should be possible for smaller ships to warp while cloaked, so they can attack with the element of surprise and root out campers. I bet any pirate is not going to be hugely surprised when you suddenly decloak and engage him after you've warped in and cloaked. Could you expand a bit on your viewpoint?
- The cloaking skill improves your speed significantly as you train it.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2003.10.19 23:17:00 -
[40]
I have one question. Will you still be visible in the local cahnnel even if your cloaked?
For Bounty hunters or pirate radiers this can make a big difference as ppl can spot u coming cloaked or not.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
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Mongo Peck
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Posted - 2003.10.19 23:45:00 -
[41]
CCP ..... Listen to the people ....
"When cloaked ..... we do not want to show up in local" or "cloaking will be a waste of time !!!!!!!!!!
Mongo speaks !!
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omri
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Posted - 2003.10.20 08:22:00 -
[42]
the cloaking device is a piece of junk right now. it only adds to the already uncountable ways a foe can escape a fight. the only way it will ever be usefull is if
1= you dont show up in local
2= you can warp with it on.
other wise its a huge waste of time. thier are so many cons to the way it works now. i cant believe it got to the testing phase without someone saying " why dont we just ban all the pirates now and save them some time"
whoever thinks this will help keep anyone but the zombie miners in the game is saadly mistaken.
3 weeks and counting till i quit eve. i told myself i would give them 1 last chance to put some spice in the game. and the clock is ticking
and when i go i know most of the people who joined mf will go, i know this cuz 90% of those who joined said they were on the verge of quitting already and that maybe MF would change thier mind. go to eve lab and read "frigates on the brink of extinction" i think you will find it enlightning.
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Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.10.20 09:33:00 -
[43]
If the following is all true then the cloaking device is indeed pretty useless:
>>
* They get listed on local
* They pop up in threats
* Can be detected by the built-in scanner
* They are clearly marked with crosshairs, alerting even most zombie players
* They can be detected on the map, using color by number of pilots in space
>>
This is why I think so:
* They get listed on local
This gives the game away. My ideal position to make it fair would be for the cloaked ship to be completely removed from local - ie it doesn't appear and it cannot view who else is there. At the very least it shouldn't appear.
* They pop up in threats
Again this completely defeats the object of the module.
* Can be detected by the built-in scanner
This one might be OK as most systems won't have cloaked player in and most people won't be checking constantly.
* They are clearly marked with crosshairs, alerting even most zombie players
This is bad.
* They can be detected on the map, using color by number of pilots in space
Personally I think this is as it should be as I don't think the display is real-time anyway.
All the other constraints on the module are perfectly fine though IMO. I can see that if some of the suggestions in this thread got implemented everyone would be going around cloaked all the time. Personally I would prefer it to be a rare module used infrequently by small groups to lay traps rather than the sort of thing you see used by large fleets.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
xeno calligan
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Posted - 2003.10.20 15:06:00 -
[44]
@Athule
Ah, sorry for not making my previous post more clear. It was a stab at the general state of "detection" of ships, which is far too liberal per default for my taste (of course, I'd strongly advocate "scouting modules" if this was changed).
But even so, all the statements, except the crosshairs, also hold for cloaking 
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xeno calligan
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Posted - 2003.10.20 18:25:00 -
[45]
Regarding the fitting reqs. (patch 1268)
One size fits all it seems
I'll do my very best not to rant; The current fitting reqs. are mearly a slight inconvenience for a battleship, but at cruiser lvl the cpu starts to become a problem. At frigate lvl it's a cruel joke. Say goodbye to half you cpu, a sizeable ammount of you grid and, oh, btw we'll be needing one of your hardpoints as well since you have so many already. I'd say this pretty much cripples the frigates.
Why do we need another module that makes frigates and cruisers even more useless than they already are and enforce the bigger-is-always-better mentality? If you want to ballance ships, you should start by ballancing the ship classes instead of worrying about whether or not large turrets are ballanced perfectly. Ok, back on track:
Wish list (fitting wise)
- Should fit in med or low slots, not in a weapon slot. Med slots make the most sense IMO.
- Frigate sized fitting reqs.
- Prohibit use on battleships / industrials / titans.
Oh, my! What a nice module it could become.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2003.10.20 22:01:00 -
[46]
Giving battleships a cloak is a bad idea. battleships are for what their name suggests - all out battle.
Set up the cloacking device for frigates and cruisers cos otherwise your gonna have fleets of cloaked battleships which is gonna stop ppl from travelling about, especially if ppl find it works for avoiding the police.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Volrath
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Posted - 2003.10.20 22:51:00 -
[47]
I dont agree that battleships should be uncloakable, but i can agree with large/medium/small cloaking devices with matching fitting requirements and penalties.
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Edward Preble
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Posted - 2003.10.20 22:59:00 -
[48]
I think that they should implement signature radius for cloaking--a frigate can be detected at short range, while a battleship can detected at long range. It just shouldn't be as effective--hiding a half-mile long monstrosity with fusion reactors and enough firepower to destroy East Asia shouldn't be terribly convenient.
Even *more* so if it hides people from local--in which case I'd get rid of cloaking for battleships entirely.
People like to imagine large fleets waiting cloaked, but I don't think this is the best role for ingame action. Small teams of small-medium ships makes it a nice raiding tool, without being incredibly overpowered.
As for frigate CPU--I think cloaking *should* be expensive. Perhaps you shouldn't be able to mount your entire normal loadout. In any case, most frigate guns don't take a ton of CPU--and with electronics 5 and a cpu booster, this shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.
Edward Preble
Coalition of Free Stars
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2003.10.21 11:45:00 -
[49]
How about penalities for having the cloaked equipped like with the micro warp drives.
Ships with the cloaking fitting have somthing like a quarter of their shields and two thirds of their normal cap capacity. This discourages ppl from using it in every battle situtation and more for when they just need to ambush a plyer or group of players.
It also means it has a bigger effect on the larger ships as a bs is gonna loose alot of its shielding and cap capacity for having this cloak fitted so it cant go in fully armed like before.
With cruisers and frigates this applies to but to a much lesser extent.
Mainly it just makes pilots think before they just stick it on and go hunting. It also has to make them think before they attack a ship cos alothough they may be bigger they maynot now have the full war potential they had without the cloak.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.10.21 13:27:00 -
[50]
Quote:
the cloaking device is a piece of junk right now. it only adds to the already uncountable ways a foe can escape a fight. the only way it will ever be usefull is if
1= you dont show up in local
2= you can warp with it on.
other wise its a huge waste of time. thier are so many cons to the way it works now. i cant believe it got to the testing phase without someone saying " why dont we just ban all the pirates now and save them some time"
whoever thinks this will help keep anyone but the zombie miners in the game is saadly mistaken.
3 weeks and counting till i quit eve. i told myself i would give them 1 last chance to put some spice in the game. and the clock is ticking
and when i go i know most of the people who joined mf will go, i know this cuz 90% of those who joined said they were on the verge of quitting already and that maybe MF would change thier mind. go to eve lab and read "frigates on the brink of extinction" i think you will find it enlightning.
The cloacking device shouldnt be a pirate tool, but a tool for everyone. Making people able to warp with it on shouldnt be, for instance: Why dont use a MWD?
At this moment, cloack is in development. Story line as in technical aspect. In the story line, you can explain beeing visible on local as:
Product is in development, but maybe in the future.
Technical this tool may become too unbalanced if its not showed on local..
Dev's decide.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
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Veln
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Posted - 2003.10.21 16:20:00 -
[51]
My 2 cents:
You should not be able to warp with it on.
RP: The Warp drives can't be cloaked
Functional: Everyone would just run around cloaked if need be, albeit slowly. That's not terribly cool. EVE would look dead.
You shouldn't be able to lock.
RP: The cloaking field is to much interference.
Functional: Can you imagine the damage a cloaked ECM vessel and a cloaked gunship could do? The hunted atleast need to have a second to think about his options while they lock. Otherwise, with a passive targeter, things could be really unbalanced.
No appearance on local (or scanners) when cloak is active.
RP: Your in radio silence and your not deteable anyway.
Functional: "When cloak is active" is important. You'll appear on local when you warp around, but not when the device is on. To the attentive you are still there. Otherwise, the cloak has little use given the penalties. You need to be invisible.
Fitting Requirements
Functional: It would be nice if the CPU reqs were lessened or turned to a percentage of the ship total. It would be nice to see a rampant increase in the reqs for larger ships too.
A mention was made to make the fitting of the device cripple other aspects of the ship like a MWD. That is somewhat appealing.
Cloaking skill increases cap.
RP: It's difficult to mask any large energy source.
Functional: The ability to increase your speed while cloaked is kinda useless. Increase the cap by 10% per level seems more reasonable. That way after cloak, the ship has a fighting chance (lots of boosters or maybe lots of armor mods and use rails, etc).
Just my 2 cents...
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.10.21 17:05:00 -
[52]
Quote:
The cloacking device shouldnt be a pirate tool, but a tool for everyone. Making people able to warp with it on shouldnt be, for instance: Why dont use a MWD?
Making it impossible to warp with a MWD will make it a pirate tool - because you will be able to make only one thing with it then - gatecamping.
free speech not allowed here |
Veln
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Posted - 2003.10.21 19:08:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Veln on 21/10/2003 19:11:00
Why would you want to not be seen? Honestly now, any attack involving some sort of suprise such as this "cloaking field" would inevitably be linked to pirating or "cheating".
I tend to recall the German U-boats were being accused of piracy and some pretty low things, despite providing a very real force for the German nation.
Gate campers have no real use for a cloaking field anyway. They tend to obliterate the target with overwhelming force before they can react.
Should they hide with a cloak field, get some little friends out (frigates) and start combing
the area. Sooner or later one of them will be found.
Given the current cloaking penalties... he should be easy pickings.
Maybe the uncloak distance should be increased? 3k?
edit: MWD? You can't activate anything while cloaked.
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Zeus
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Posted - 2003.10.22 18:47:00 -
[54]
I always seem to worry when people say things shouldn’t be in the game because pirates can do this, pirates could do that. It’s often said by the people who either don’t want to fight (and want a easy ride) or have little game experience to understand the mechanics of combat.
It is encouraging to here we all agree to the need for enhanced stealth in the way the device works. But when we come to the sticky issue of combat people seem to be always addressing the issue from the pilot seat of an industrial ship. Rather than actually modes of combat its self.
As said before what generally are the uses of a cloaking device and what “Can” it offer to the game in content and combat that cannot already be done in some form?
Well it allows you to make tactical options from a position of stealth. So ok if say for example the wish’s of the board with regards to the appearance in local and the scanner get heard (which I agree to in a sense) and you are now Completely invisible and no one can know your there. Assuming all the other options are the same lets see what we can do. Since we all seem to be worried about gate camping -_- and were all in frail industrials -_- and we are in fact in 0.0 space -_- lets imagine a situation. Your there camping your happy ass of at a star gate in your Dominix lets say. Your cloaked and can give it as good as you can take it just minus your shields. Then comes your prey, an industrial flying alone quite happily with its teddy bears and “I love the world” stickers in its rear window. You are ready so you de-cloak, now here comes the uncertain part, is he or is he not paying attention. Well as much as I care what happens to a afk indy pilot in 0.0 space I don’t. So lets count up the seconds before the Dominix can fire. 3 Seconds no target time on de-cloak now without and sensor booster you have to add a further 8 without add 2 to 4 depending how many he has equipped. So lets make that 5-6 seconds before anything bad can happen. Anyone with Half a brain would have left by then. So shall we ask our self’s. Why did I bother cloaking :/
Now lets turn the tables, you’re an experienced battleship pilot waiting around a gate for a pirate that has been reported in the area to be around. Not only is he packing a mean set off guns he’s also padded out his mid slots with some useful items that make your life not worth living. You are waiting at a gate, your cloaked in say a Dominix like before while he is in an Armageddon. He is kitted out to attack and would probably engage you regardless of your cloak so If we follow the same chain of events as before your lock time is 6 seconds and his is 4, your minus your shields most of your cap and could probably be target jammed before you could even do so if he was equipped correctly and in another ship. How are you going to win the situation while retaining the cloak as a useful item? Well they only way I can see it working is if you can lock the target passively before you de-cloak. It’s the only way you have a possibility of winning a fight or if you can cloak while your targeted. Then it becomes a means of retreat and a means of attack otherwise it’s a useless item that makes someone jump in the seat for a brief period while they click warp. So once again why use it :/
I’d like to address the people who seem to think being a pirate and cheating come hand in hand. Piracy is part of the game and “should” be a viable but somewhat risky practise. True though many of the pirates to date have lacked in the common sense and courtesy department but there will always be some like that. So it stands to reason why there are not many in the game to begin with, perhaps because there’s no practical way of doing it currently but I will not get into that since it is not my concern. But I get the impression people would like methods of piracy to just go away completely. I usually try not to be judgemental in such things but these people just have no clue what so ever. Methods of piracy are methods of combat. By trying to make piracy go away you are simply making combat in it self go away and this seems very much to be a pvp game to me. Rather than saying “ Oh n000z don’t do that the pirates will ownz0r me” say “cool!! If we can do that then new possibilities for game are endless!”.
So can we test this item and try to give suggestions to make it useful, rather than “Safe” It is not meant to be safe. It’s a tactical weapon of war and in the wrong hands is supposed to be dangerous.
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Acuna Traos
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Posted - 2003.10.22 18:54:00 -
[55]
I think certain modules that require very little power should be activate able in cloak, for one passive targeters. Its passive so it won't give your position away anyway. (however you do need some cap to do this so the 100% cap lo needs to be changed a little, or reduced with a second cloaking skill like 2% less reduction per lvl)
However MWD and afterburners are not synonymous to stealth as they use huge amounts of power to operate.
I also agree that you should not show up on local nor on the scanner, there should be a scanner module introduced that allows you to locate cloaked ships (as it is now), but not de-cloak them.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.10.22 23:08:00 -
[56]
@Zeus: Very well said.
@Acuna Traos: I said it twice already and I will say it again: There should be no targeting possible by anymeans with a cloaked ship. If you can they will become insta-jamming machines.
free speech not allowed here |
Astaroth
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Posted - 2003.10.23 04:39:00 -
[57]
how about u loose lock when u uncloak and only modules such as passive targeter and scanners can be activated in cloak.
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xeno calligan
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Posted - 2003.10.23 09:59:00 -
[58]
Quote:
@Zeus: Very well said.
@Acuna Traos: I said it twice already and I will say it again: There should be no targeting possible by anymeans with a cloaked ship. If you can they will become insta-jamming machines.
While I agree that insta-jamming should be prevented, I also think that it should be possible while cloaked to lock passively and engage (causing decloaking). As Zeus said, otherwise what's the point? Picking a fight with a ship on equal terms except that you have 0 cap and shields to start with doesn't sound like too hot an idea.
A simple solution: allow locks while cloaked, but prevent use of jamming devices for a short period as you decloak -- we could say that decloaking lights you up like a x-mas tree, so locking you is no problem (rendering jammers unusable for that period). Or: "just because" 
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Zeus
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Posted - 2003.10.23 14:14:00 -
[59]
If you think about it using a normal lock methods means you are actively pinging your target or what ever and people can see that there being targeted by the electromagnetic mess that’s coming towards them. It would be probably better that you can only lock with a mid slot module activated that can achieve lock passively while cutting through interference from the cloak. This uses up a mid slot that people are so worried about also.
Besides arnt you supposed to be hidden, it would be a big give away if you were targetted and no one was around :]
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CT BadIronTree
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Posted - 2003.10.23 15:48:00 -
[60]
Zeus
have you personal test cloak in chaos?
1/3 the things you say are wrone....
please test them
i will do the happy caerbear in my Megathron :P
on more time... when you cloak you lose ALL your sheild and all your capasity ok?
if you uncloak you can warp in 0.2 sec my friend 20000 km away and you cant warp to me... (with out the new scaner)
jump from stargate in 0.5 sec :P
with out the scaners to look for cloak people all we say are crap...
+ the new system scaner they are making
+ how in the hell with 0 capasite slowly recharging you are going to kill the indy or pirate? with 4 capasity bousters?
cloak IS NOT for fighting is tackical weapon
im my BS with 7 over drive i go 450 m/sec
with cloak on i go 65 m/sec
with cloak you cant warp you cant lock
you cant use enything because you have 0 capasity
only the low slot is working and 2-3 stuff that dont need capasity...
GO and test is before you speak
============================================
Colossus Technologies
The first and oldest corp in eve!
BadIronTree Head of Production
CSM Chat Log September 25, 2003:
Fuhry> Some things we simply cannot test, and therefore we just put it on Tranq. cross our fingers and then get into panic mode.
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playing (or beta testing)since Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:06 (beta 5)
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