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Redundancy	Posted - 2003.10.13 18:00:00 - [1] Since the 'edit members' feature is fixed (but apparently very laggy) in 1259, we can finally make the corp hangars of the reinvigorated (post TQ-mirror) FCC available to everyone. With this comes the belated announcement that cloaking devices are available for testing (you'll find them in the 'new items' hangar when you have access). There's already an unofficial thread on the cloaking devices here. However, there's a lot of confusion, assumption, questions and so on in that thread, so I feel it would be better to keep that one as it is, and restrict this thread to feedback on the new items from testing experience. Redundancy
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2003.10.13 20:09:00 - [2] Very interested, came on soley for trying cloaking out. Skill now requires electronics lvl 5, which is logical but dissapointing in the sense that many cant test it for a looong time perhaps a temporary change is in order? then you can always get the devs to set it back to lvl 5 when it goes live. _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
Quiz	Posted - 2003.10.14 07:31:00 - [3] Also, not just bughunters can accept players to fight club and give them hangar access. Any player can. An application goes through the player applies -> gets offer back -> accepts steps. This is how to do it. Applying to fight club First, player who wishes to join fight club has to go to the system named PF-346 and dock at the station located at planet 1. If the player is a long way from that system, he can join the channel named eve-chaos within the game. If there is a bughunter there (name starting with BH) he can transport you to PF-346 if he is active and not sleeping. :) Just ask. When you are docked at the station, apply to fight club. You will get a offer back when another player decides to have a look at your application. Just ask people to do it in the eve-chaos channel. Getting accepted to fight club Any player on chaos can offer you to join fight club once you have sent a application. Asking someone to do it in the eve-chaos channel is a good way to get accepted fast, providing people feel helpful and are docked. To offer someone to fight club, click the Corp button on the left buttonbar and sort the applications on player names. Right click on the name of the player who wishes to join and click OK in the next dialog box. Player will now get a offer back and will have to accept it. Accepting a offer to fight club Click corp button, click view on the offer and then OK in the next dialog box. You now are a member of fight club. Getting hangar access Some player already in fight club has to click corp button, then the member tab, find you in the list and right click you. He will get a dialog box with the roles you can have in the corporation. Basicly, he should check every box he can find so you have full access to everything. Thats it. A lot of text for something very simple really. Maybe I should have drawn a pic, but I suck at drawing. :P
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.14 08:11:00 - [4] eh elec lvl5 kind of sucks... would be better if it was a mix of a few skills maybe of lvl4? btw does cloaking really have anything to do with your cap being -90%??? i mean why? sheilds and hmm speed kind of make sense but cap??? is that peace of high tech that much eating cap that it must use up 90% of your cap? just to do some tricks? i mean even warp core isnt that insane support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Bjorn Nilfheim	Posted - 2003.10.14 10:51:00 - [5] personally, i think that cloaking should be even higher level, on the order of jumpdrives, which require 3 level 5s to use. though i was a little upset when i undocked the day they changed the skill, and was no longer able to watch my ship cloak. It does seem to carry some high penalties, especially in light of the new changes to cap/shield overcharge draining method. As soon as i finish electronics level 5, ill look into it again. Admiral of the Forsaken Fleets Pillar of the Fallen Emperor
Johnson McCrae	Posted - 2003.10.14 15:07:00 - [6] The cap hit indicates how much POWER it takes to make a ship invisible. So it makes a LOT of sense. It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya! [ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
darkk	Posted - 2003.10.14 15:10:00 - [7] hi, here a few infos about the cloaking device Penaltys: (only when cloaking is active) - -100% shield - -100% cap - -90% speed - no module activation while cloaked - no warping while cloaked Skill Reqs: - electronic lvl 5 - cloaking lvl 1 (20% more speed while cloaked per level) Decloaking cloaked players: - use scanner, when u fly within 1.5 km the cloaked ship will decloak Prevent players to cloak: - simple lock - stay within 1.5 km
Singular	Posted - 2003.10.14 17:23:00 - [8] omg pirates are gonna love this. I know I am =) Im Yo Huckleberreh
Siolan	Posted - 2003.10.14 21:50:00 - [9] Edited by: Siolan on 14/10/2003 21:51:22 The de-cloak proximity may vary with ships of certain signature radius. In a Merlin, I de-cloaked at 1km, not 1.5km... Kind of sad they upped the skill req's, but I think it's good that it's a higher level skill, though maybe level 4 would be better, 5 does take a while. Depends on how expensive or rare the modules are. Maybe how rare they are corresponds to the skills they take? Personally, I'd like to see it a medium skill,and medium rarity, so it could be used as a tactic by more than a select few. But then again, despite it's drawbacks, it's a very powerful weapon, so maybe it should be very high in price and requirements... Besides... the effect is really, really cool :)
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.15 06:06:00 - [10] if it doesnt make you invis in local then its stupid... it will still show on the map that large fleet is coming and or players are moving in... etc... i sure hope they make it that you get removed from local, you should also not see in local as you are not there unless your ship scanners and stuff work and you can still some how tell who is in the system without giving away that you are there... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog

Drachir	Posted - 2003.10.15 06:52:00 - [11] From playing around with thse for a while it seems the cloaking is pretty much instant. I feel cloaking would become a must have module. If someone warps into a belt while you're mining with the intention of killing you, you can simple cloak before the other person can get a lock. Imo there needs to be a delay equal (or greater) to that of the jump in delay for being able to acquire a lock. my 2p
Volrath	Posted - 2003.10.15 07:51:00 - [12] Im actually disappointed at what cloaking means in eve right now, i was hoping for something that would make battles more tactical. Something that would make it possible to sneak a whole fleet through someone's space if he or she wasnt specifically watching out for cloaked ships (aka make you disappear in local as well). Cloaking as it is now doesnt add very much to the game, the only purpose i can see for it is more running away from combat (especially for indies). I would have hoped to see something that would make it possible to sneak up on someone (for instance, pirates camping a gate), decloak, and blast them to hell.
Toulak	Posted - 2003.10.16 11:48:00 - [13] Edited by: Toulak on 16/10/2003 11:49:06 Why would you need to remove people from local, you jump into the sector, your visible on local. You then warp to a location, the whole time your visible on local.. You get to the location they still see you warp in, you then cloak, then disappear from local.. I think it'd be kinda obvious your there Unless you were able to cloak and warp, are you able to do such with it? I need to get my butt on Chaos and test this really.
Volrath	Posted - 2003.10.16 17:46:00 - [14] Edited by: Volrath on 16/10/2003 17:47:17 I was hoping to warp while cloaked... Then we would really see some tactical combat, but even sitting at a well known pirate infested stargate with a whole cloaked fleet and taking the pirates out as they come in would have been fun. Now that you are visible on local, the cloaking device doesnt really add anything to PvP combat i.m.o., because the penalties are too severe to use it.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.16 18:55:00 - [15] Given the preliminary reports of the cloaking device's fitting and skill requirements, I'd say this initial model should not have the ability to warp while cloaked. It leaves nothing for anyone to upgrade to in the future (better versions simply not costing as much). And everyone will fly around cloaked as much as possible, creating another MWD situation. Where a module meant for tactical purposes got turned into a 'Must have' travel device. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Faramir	Posted - 2003.10.16 21:04:00 - [16] For the moment 2 comments: -Turrets do not cloak with the ship till the very last moment... the whole ship "flickers" while cloaking, the turrets are unaffected.. maybe a small thing, but it would be nicer if the "flickered" aswell. -warping right after uncloaking. this will be very very annoying!! Many will uncloak and immediately warp away. This will have ppl end up "mid-space" and untracable. VERY bad for PvP. This way everyone can get away since it is near impossible to get to someone mid-space! Plz take note!
Zeus	Posted - 2003.10.17 00:16:00 - [17] I've given the current cloaking device set up some serious thought and testing and I’ve basically concluded in its current state it holds no useful application other than eye candy. Lets start a basic run down of Pro's Vs Cons: Pro's -People can’t see you on screen, you are completely invisible to the main view in space. -People can’t target you while you are cloaked. Con's -In using the device you strip all your shields. -You Loss all but 10% of your cap. -You are reduced to a fraction of your starting speed (Though this is a trainable attribute) -You loss the ability to activate modules. -You loss the ability to target. -You loss the ability to warp. -People can still see you on scanner. -There is a short period while uncloaking where you are vulnerable and cannot target. -You need to use a high slot. -You cannot cloak when you are target or being targeted or within 1500m from anything e.g. station or player/npc. Well, anyone can see the Pro's list is far shorter than the Con's list but for the benefit of the doubt I did some testing. The cap drain renders laser and hybrid weapons useless, so it’s not even worth mounting them. In my tests I used missiles and in this scenario I waited around a station for a quarry to appear, in this case he was not looking for me on purpose. Uncloaking at my desired distance but he achieved target lock first firing at me a few times before I could start launching my missiles (This was cruiser combat) seeing me he immediately started heading towards me firing, to get into his optimal. Obviously I'm starting of with a disadvantage since I have no shields and am already into armour were he has shields and a booster. Using ECM modules in order to hide I have to break his lock. Now depending on the circumstances and what your using doing this negates the purpose for me cloaking since I wouldn’t really need to hide but none the less in order to use the cloaking device I have to be in a winning position. So he gets to close I hide and put distance between us and start again, by then his shields are back up. He has sustained a little damage were I am about 45% armour left. The result is clear, I am in no better position in using the cloaking device than without it. In fact I am at a disadvantage for using it because I have no shields. The 2nd scenario came as abit of a shock, I asked my quarry to try and find me using the scanner and this point I was talking about the other scanner at the bottom left next to auto pilot. But he actually used the bottom right scanner and found me instantly setting me to approach now I am unable to run AND HIDE this means if a person knows I am there he can find me so easily and I can do nothing not even run while he brings me into range or comes to park his ship within 1500m of me. Now I ask you what is the point of cloaking under these conditions? Using it makes you clearly the underdog and your not even hidden from your enemy! Suggestions There needs to be a price to cloaking, and I believe the speed shield loss is acceptable. The Cap is abit severe though I think it should be reduced or given the ability to reduce it with skill. But the current module and targeting restrictions are making the cloaking device useless. Its true you can’t be allowed to fire or perform actions on a target while cloaked at this moment in time. Perhaps later you can with some kind of advanced thing or ship but not now same goes for warping while cloaked. But in order for cloaking to work you must be able to target a enemy to have some kind of advantage for using the cloak and be able reduce that cap drain otherwise the device will not get used and will be another useless item like the energy vampires currently. Another thing needs to be the scanner, the cloak needs to hide people from the scanner since its enough people will be able to see you cloaking you cant expect them to be able to then see you moving on the scanner? What’s the point! But the possibility for some kind of future cloak hunting skills or devices are welcome :) Heres to hoping this will get read and taken on board Zeus Signing off
Zeus	Posted - 2003.10.17 00:30:00 - [18] I forgot to add this is the time when passive targeting modules become useful since they have always been useless before, same for ship scanners etc. Half the use of the cloaking device is to spy on people after all with them not even knowing it. The Other half is surprise attacks. Now I’m really signing off
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.10.17 01:23:00 - [19] As the situation is now, the ship classes does not truely carve out specific roles for the ships -- in particular, a cruiser is very much a discount battleship with slightly more speed and agility, but not enough to make much difference (except BB atm). The introduction of cloaking devices can change that by allowing cloaking only on frigates and cruisers. The cloaking skill should allow the pilot to cloak a lvl 1 frigate only. By training a "cloaking amplification" skill, larger ships can be cloaked (either by directly restricting the ship classes or some other parameter like signature radius). By skill lvl: Up to lvl 2 frigates Up to lvl 3 frigates Up to lvl 1 cruisers Up to lvl 2 cruisers Up to lvl 3 cruisers This will ensure: No cloaking industrials that can hide from any danger. No cloaking battle ships; It would put a lid on heavy fleets that can decloak and wipe out everything in sight. There would be a purpose to flying other war ships than battleships, other than to save isk. By making the "cloaking amplification" skill rank 3-5, there would be a much better distribution of pilots on different ship classes; A cloaking lvl 3 cruiser would be extremely expensive (in skill points), but not impossible, to train for. Thus pilots that don't specialize heavily in cloaking would be forced to fly some of the hardly-ever-used lvl 1 and lvl 2 cruisers. Provided that cloaking actually is useful also as an offensive strategy, a restriction to cruisers and frigates would make ship selection more interesting, rather than the prevailing get-the-largest-ship-with-the-largest-guns mentality.
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2003.10.17 07:49:00 - [20] Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 17/10/2003 07:50:08 Quote: There would be a purpose to flying other war ships than battleships, other than to save isk. So fking true. Pain is meant to be felt**

Klydor	Posted - 2003.10.17 10:13:00 - [21] I'm heading onto chaos to test this out later. However if the above is true I see little point in cloaking. Imagine the scenario: 6 pirates always camp a jump in location in system T16. Knowing this the local alliance sends a fleet of 16 battleships to wait at the gate and 13 of them cloak. The pirates jump in as anticipated. Look at local and see 16 players. USing there long scanners they determine all 16 players are at the same stargate. They warp away and jump to another system. In this scenario what has cloaking got you? You may as well have sat in at the gate uncloaked and avoided all the disadvantages. I always thought cloaking would allow a ship to sit their without warping etc etc but able to passivly lock and scan all the enemy ships, relay that info back to the main fleet so that they can decide tactics and load outs to give them a much larger advantage. However I have to admin all the above is based on other peoples feedback.. I'm going on chaos later just to see if its true or not. If it is I doubt I'll bother with cloaking devices, you won't be suprising players and you'll be 1/2 dead before you start to attack.
Indigo Seqi	Posted - 2003.10.17 15:41:00 - [22] My thoughts on this. - You can remain cloaked pretty much forever, so any cap penalty is well justified by that imo. - Battleships are too big to be cloaked by this new, but still relatively primitive module. - You should disappear from local. If cloaking goes live and you're still visible in local, people will spot you in the system and be ten times as careful as they were before, because they know you could be cloaked somewhere. This only gets worse if the person sees multiple members of a hostile corp, to the point of him just logging off because the risk is too big.
Ian Wagner	Posted - 2003.10.17 15:54:00 - [23] Obviously, cloaking is still a "work in progress". Speed reduction + still showing up on long range scanners means any frigate or cruiser designated for EW could just click "approach" and drop your cloak, leaving you with no cap or shield, and ship(s) locking onto you. Hoped cloaking would allow those who did not wish to do PvP a way to avoid it, while adding a recon element to those that did. It apparently has a way to go yet...
McWatt	Posted - 2003.10.17 20:01:00 - [24] this game needs strategical cloaking (invisibility on map/local). and it needs it well done (well balanced) nobody cares about seeing a ship or not. this is a waste of time.
Doc Brown	Posted - 2003.10.17 21:00:00 - [25] Before everybody get's too huffy about the advantages/dis-advantes of cloaking, remeber that CCP wants to start small with it. They can always add features to the cloaking devices later (i.e.: anti-nerfs). _________________________________________________ There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations.
Zeus	Posted - 2003.10.17 21:37:00 - [26] There is still no point in adding a item that is utterly useless by the off chance it will become better later
Doc Brown	Posted - 2003.10.17 21:43:00 - [27] Quote: There is still no point in adding a item that is utterly useless by the off chance it will become better later Value is in the eye of the beholder. _________________________________________________ There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations.
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.17 22:12:00 - [28] for cloaking to be used by anyone... the cloaked ship and char should not show up in local/scanner's the cloaked ship should be able to use a passive targeter to lock on.. or else there is really no advantage... WHY does it matter about SHIP size??? the ships all have proportional cap and other items... so if there is any kind of issue, it is all fair in the % for all ships as it takes the % of whatever you have. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Astaroth	Posted - 2003.10.17 23:29:00 - [29] hmm one way of using current cloaking would be for a solo bb to stay in cloak until he spots an easy target and just let all the others pass, also warping to a spot just outside the grid barrier of a stargate and approaching it then in cloak. and yes scanner should not be able to locate a cloaked ship, and it would be nice to be able to use ship scanner while in cloak.
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.10.18 09:33:00 - [30] Edited by: xeno calligan on 18/10/2003 09:35:32 Slightly OT; Many problems arrise from the numerous methods by which players can be detected even though they are out of the maximal targeting range of the ship: They get listed on local They pop up in threats Can be detected by the built-in scanner They are clearly marked with crosshairs, alerting even most zombie players They can be detected on the map, using color by number of pilots in space As I see it, players should only be detectable if the ship has the capability -- i.e. they are within locking range and uncloaked. No clues should be provided until then. As for the #local channel, I think it would acceptable to let it cover the current constellation instead of the system.

Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.10.18 10:28:00 - [31] - definatly no locking while cloaking ECM takes cap, but not as much (exept multispectrals). Even with 10% cap you can still easily jam a target - this would make ECM even more unbalanced. - not present in local, not present in scanner A must, otherwise the device is useless. On a sidenote, IMO the presence in the local chat should be optional, since it makes any coordinated attacks pretty much impossible. Any massing of ships is detected immediatly. - warping while cloaking should be possible, but a pain in the ass. Let the 90% speed reduction be active while warping as well (and not reduceable - I would rather use the skill to decrease the range a ship has to come near you in order to detect you). If you warp with 0.2 au/sec cloaking will never become a must have travel acessory. - no cloaking within 20 (30? 50?)km of a gate Caused by the gate's radiation or whatever. To prevent people making undetectable instajumps. - time to cloak should be 3 minutes (in which you cannot move), so it doesn't becomes an instant fleeing device in battles free speech not allowed here
Klydor	Posted - 2003.10.18 12:01:00 - [32] Ana: I agree on all but the no targetting while cloaked. I think you should be able to target but any offensive action should render you visible. Such as ECM, Firing, Draining their cap etc The code to detect offensive actions is already in game so we know it is possilbe. With this setup you could cloak and scan ships that pass and relay information to others. But you cannot use ecm or fire without decloaking.
Zeus	Posted - 2003.10.18 14:44:00 - [33] Another point I'd like to bring up is the inability to cloak when you are being targeted by a player or npc. This also makes the cloak abit useless. Since cloaking is also basically used to hide under extreme circumstances you will never be able to cloak again in a battle until you've won. It is true though that being able to break a lock of a player by cloaking without some counter is abit unfair. Once again I see the possibility for skill or module content here! HINT Another sticky issue is cloaking while targeting something your self, you have to manually unlock your target first instead of it being done for you when you simply click cloak. These simple mouse clicks and seconds can mean life or death in a battle.
Edward Preble	Posted - 2003.10.18 19:51:00 - [34] I don't think that cloaking is useless, even with the current situation. 2-3 pirate cruisers wait at a gate; and a ship arrives, and they decloak and open up on it. Although the indy pilot may see a few people insystem, it's not a large fleet, so they may approach the gate. Without anyone visible, they can approach it without using warp lag to escape. Cruisers then decloak and ambush--they'll be at a disadvantage, but with a little coordination 3 cruisers with that disadvantage could still take on a battleship. People are complaining that it won't be an effective fleet combat tool because you can't have 13 ships waiting silently--GOOD. The consquences of such actions would place way too much power in the hands of such fleets. Alliances like CFS or SA or CA could field fleets of 10-15 ships and ambush every enemy that came along. In short, I think people are expecting it to be applied to more of the game than it should be. This shouldn't be an escape tool (we've got MWD for that) so not being able to cloak while someone has a firm lock on you is fine (and makes sense). It should be an ambush tool--but one that leaves the ambusher in a bit of a bind, forcing them to change tactics and make a cost benefit analysis. As such, I think the current model assist small teams of raiders, which is excellent. I hope that signature radius will be directly tied to the effectiveness of cloaking--ie., you see a Merlin at 1km, but you'll see a battleship at 10-30km. It should be much, much easier to cloak small ships than large ships like battleships and indies. Edward Preble Coalition of Free Stars
Ilia Volyova	Posted - 2003.10.18 20:18:00 - [35] Quote: Ana: I agree on all but the no targetting while cloaked. I think you should be able to target but any offensive action should render you visible. Such as ECM, Firing, Draining their cap etc The code to detect offensive actions is already in game so we know it is possilbe. With this setup you could cloak and scan ships that pass and relay information to others. But you cannot use ecm or fire without decloaking. Following scenario: You fly towards a gate and from 1 sec to another you are ecm'ed, webbed and scrambled. And a scorp is uncloaking because he was using ECM. Big deal - you cannot do anything now anyway, he could as well have stayed cloaked for all the difference it made. Sure , you could use warp stabs and/or MWD, but the scorp can easily have counters for those, 2 7.5k scrambler, 2 webber and 4 racespecific ECM and your anti-equipment very likely won't help you. If you are able to lock while cloaked you have a almost completly failsafe gatecamper. Nevermind that your argument with the ship scanner has a maior loophole. Every tried one? It is LOUD - if someone is scanning you with one you'll hear it. And it's operating range is pretty low 1-2 km - a ship will very likely see through your cloak before you scan it.
Zeus	Posted - 2003.10.19 01:40:00 - [36] It takes time to decloak and you cant target right away currently. I'm sure ccp can add a small delay of afew seconds like this before you can activate modules and such but not to long. If you get cought after that its your fault for being asleep on the job.
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2003.10.19 12:01:00 - [37] Quote: - definatly no locking while cloaking ECM takes cap, but not as much (exept multispectrals). Even with 10% cap you can still easily jam a target - this would make ECM even more unbalanced. - not present in local, not present in scanner A must, otherwise the device is useless. On a sidenote, IMO the presence in the local chat should be optional, since it makes any coordinated attacks pretty much impossible. Any massing of ships is detected immediatly. - warping while cloaking should be possible, but a pain in the ass. Let the 90% speed reduction be active while warping as well (and not reduceable - I would rather use the skill to decrease the range a ship has to come near you in order to detect you). If you warp with 0.2 au/sec cloaking will never become a must have travel acessory. - no cloaking within 20 (30? 50?)km of a gate Caused by the gate's radiation or whatever. To prevent people making undetectable instajumps. - time to cloak should be 3 minutes (in which you cannot move), so it doesn't becomes an instant fleeing device in battles 1. People dont check local very often. The fact that pirates still kill tons of people at 1 location indicates that people dont check local and the map. 2. Warping during cloacked is a big no no in my eyes, only shield modules should be active. 3. I agree no cloacking within gate radius, but for another reason. So on your point i disagree because: The speed atm is 15m/s while cloacked. It would take AGES to get to a gate, this is the reward for beeing so patient and the EXTREME loss of time. 4. Its not an instant fleeing device in battles now, because when you lock, or get locked at this moment on test you will not be able to cloack. However you can consider it as a tactical device in combat to escape indeed: In combination with ecm you can disable the lock on you so you can flee for a larger force. Not a bad thing imho. - Overview of my testing on CHAOS - Version 1259: Cloacking at the moment is bugged, if you recloack, decloack and so on... You will not be able to warp away, use weapons, dock, or move fast what so ever... While you are still visible, your shield + cap is down however.. A big bug imho. Cloacking is a good device at the moment on chaos: Need high skills to use it (good) Loss of shield + cap = good. Doesnt make it a pet module for caldari's then right away. Loss of speed = great Shouldnt dock, warp, lock, warp = great. This device is VERY limited as it should be. It can be VERY dangerous and unbalanced without current limitations. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.10.19 14:07:00 - [38] Sorry, but the only people who are not aware of the local channel are noobs or in a high sec system. Any halfway experienced player has always an eye on local - at least if he's mining/hunting in the outback. Ambushing a mining ops of a rival corp is impossible that way, they will see at once if there's a maior force forming in their system due to local chat. free speech not allowed here
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.10.19 14:07:00 - [39] Edited by: xeno calligan on 19/10/2003 14:10:20 Quote: 2. Warping during cloacked is a big no no in my eyes, only shield modules should be active. 3. I agree no cloacking within gate radius, but for another reason. So on your point i disagree because: The speed atm is 15m/s while cloacked. It would take AGES to get to a gate, this is the reward for beeing so patient and the EXTREME loss of time. I think it should be possible to warp while cloaked. As I see it, the cloaking device is currently good for two things: camping and fleeing. It should be possible for smaller ships to warp while cloaked, so they can attack with the element of surprise and root out campers. I bet any pirate is not going to be hugely surprised when you suddenly decloak and engage him after you've warped in and cloaked. Could you expand a bit on your viewpoint? The cloaking skill improves your speed significantly as you train it.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2003.10.19 23:17:00 - [40] I have one question. Will you still be visible in the local cahnnel even if your cloaked? For Bounty hunters or pirate radiers this can make a big difference as ppl can spot u coming cloaked or not. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...

Mongo Peck	Posted - 2003.10.19 23:45:00 - [41] CCP ..... Listen to the people .... "When cloaked ..... we do not want to show up in local" or "cloaking will be a waste of time !!!!!!!!!! Mongo speaks !!
omri	Posted - 2003.10.20 08:22:00 - [42] the cloaking device is a piece of junk right now. it only adds to the already uncountable ways a foe can escape a fight. the only way it will ever be usefull is if 1= you dont show up in local 2= you can warp with it on. other wise its a huge waste of time. thier are so many cons to the way it works now. i cant believe it got to the testing phase without someone saying " why dont we just ban all the pirates now and save them some time" whoever thinks this will help keep anyone but the zombie miners in the game is saadly mistaken. 3 weeks and counting till i quit eve. i told myself i would give them 1 last chance to put some spice in the game. and the clock is ticking and when i go i know most of the people who joined mf will go, i know this cuz 90% of those who joined said they were on the verge of quitting already and that maybe MF would change thier mind. go to eve lab and read "frigates on the brink of extinction" i think you will find it enlightning.
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.10.20 09:33:00 - [43] If the following is all true then the cloaking device is indeed pretty useless: >> * They get listed on local * They pop up in threats * Can be detected by the built-in scanner * They are clearly marked with crosshairs, alerting even most zombie players * They can be detected on the map, using color by number of pilots in space >> This is why I think so: * They get listed on local This gives the game away. My ideal position to make it fair would be for the cloaked ship to be completely removed from local - ie it doesn't appear and it cannot view who else is there. At the very least it shouldn't appear. * They pop up in threats Again this completely defeats the object of the module. * Can be detected by the built-in scanner This one might be OK as most systems won't have cloaked player in and most people won't be checking constantly. * They are clearly marked with crosshairs, alerting even most zombie players This is bad. * They can be detected on the map, using color by number of pilots in space Personally I think this is as it should be as I don't think the display is real-time anyway. All the other constraints on the module are perfectly fine though IMO. I can see that if some of the suggestions in this thread got implemented everyone would be going around cloaked all the time. Personally I would prefer it to be a rare module used infrequently by small groups to lay traps rather than the sort of thing you see used by large fleets. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.10.20 15:06:00 - [44] @Athule Ah, sorry for not making my previous post more clear. It was a stab at the general state of "detection" of ships, which is far too liberal per default for my taste (of course, I'd strongly advocate "scouting modules" if this was changed). But even so, all the statements, except the crosshairs, also hold for cloaking
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.10.20 18:25:00 - [45] Regarding the fitting reqs. (patch 1268) High slot 75tf 10mw One size fits all it seems I'll do my very best not to rant; The current fitting reqs. are mearly a slight inconvenience for a battleship, but at cruiser lvl the cpu starts to become a problem. At frigate lvl it's a cruel joke. Say goodbye to half you cpu, a sizeable ammount of you grid and, oh, btw we'll be needing one of your hardpoints as well since you have so many already. I'd say this pretty much cripples the frigates. Why do we need another module that makes frigates and cruisers even more useless than they already are and enforce the bigger-is-always-better mentality? If you want to ballance ships, you should start by ballancing the ship classes instead of worrying about whether or not large turrets are ballanced perfectly. Ok, back on track: Wish list (fitting wise) Should fit in med or low slots, not in a weapon slot. Med slots make the most sense IMO. Frigate sized fitting reqs. Prohibit use on battleships / industrials / titans. Oh, my! What a nice module it could become.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2003.10.20 22:01:00 - [46] Giving battleships a cloak is a bad idea. battleships are for what their name suggests - all out battle. Set up the cloacking device for frigates and cruisers cos otherwise your gonna have fleets of cloaked battleships which is gonna stop ppl from travelling about, especially if ppl find it works for avoiding the police. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Volrath	Posted - 2003.10.20 22:51:00 - [47] I dont agree that battleships should be uncloakable, but i can agree with large/medium/small cloaking devices with matching fitting requirements and penalties.
Edward Preble	Posted - 2003.10.20 22:59:00 - [48] I think that they should implement signature radius for cloaking--a frigate can be detected at short range, while a battleship can detected at long range. It just shouldn't be as effective--hiding a half-mile long monstrosity with fusion reactors and enough firepower to destroy East Asia shouldn't be terribly convenient. Even more so if it hides people from local--in which case I'd get rid of cloaking for battleships entirely. People like to imagine large fleets waiting cloaked, but I don't think this is the best role for ingame action. Small teams of small-medium ships makes it a nice raiding tool, without being incredibly overpowered. As for frigate CPU--I think cloaking should be expensive. Perhaps you shouldn't be able to mount your entire normal loadout. In any case, most frigate guns don't take a ton of CPU--and with electronics 5 and a cpu booster, this shouldn't be an insurmountable problem. Edward Preble Coalition of Free Stars
Wild Rho	Posted - 2003.10.21 11:45:00 - [49] How about penalities for having the cloaked equipped like with the micro warp drives. Ships with the cloaking fitting have somthing like a quarter of their shields and two thirds of their normal cap capacity. This discourages ppl from using it in every battle situtation and more for when they just need to ambush a plyer or group of players. It also means it has a bigger effect on the larger ships as a bs is gonna loose alot of its shielding and cap capacity for having this cloak fitted so it cant go in fully armed like before. With cruisers and frigates this applies to but to a much lesser extent. Mainly it just makes pilots think before they just stick it on and go hunting. It also has to make them think before they attack a ship cos alothough they may be bigger they maynot now have the full war potential they had without the cloak. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2003.10.21 13:27:00 - [50] Quote: the cloaking device is a piece of junk right now. it only adds to the already uncountable ways a foe can escape a fight. the only way it will ever be usefull is if 1= you dont show up in local 2= you can warp with it on. other wise its a huge waste of time. thier are so many cons to the way it works now. i cant believe it got to the testing phase without someone saying " why dont we just ban all the pirates now and save them some time" whoever thinks this will help keep anyone but the zombie miners in the game is saadly mistaken. 3 weeks and counting till i quit eve. i told myself i would give them 1 last chance to put some spice in the game. and the clock is ticking and when i go i know most of the people who joined mf will go, i know this cuz 90% of those who joined said they were on the verge of quitting already and that maybe MF would change thier mind. go to eve lab and read "frigates on the brink of extinction" i think you will find it enlightning. The cloacking device shouldnt be a pirate tool, but a tool for everyone. Making people able to warp with it on shouldnt be, for instance: Why dont use a MWD? At this moment, cloack is in development. Story line as in technical aspect. In the story line, you can explain beeing visible on local as: Product is in development, but maybe in the future. Technical this tool may become too unbalanced if its not showed on local.. Dev's decide. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html

Veln	Posted - 2003.10.21 16:20:00 - [51] My 2 cents: You should not be able to warp with it on. RP: The Warp drives can't be cloaked Functional: Everyone would just run around cloaked if need be, albeit slowly. That's not terribly cool. EVE would look dead. You shouldn't be able to lock. RP: The cloaking field is to much interference. Functional: Can you imagine the damage a cloaked ECM vessel and a cloaked gunship could do? The hunted atleast need to have a second to think about his options while they lock. Otherwise, with a passive targeter, things could be really unbalanced. No appearance on local (or scanners) when cloak is active. RP: Your in radio silence and your not deteable anyway. Functional: "When cloak is active" is important. You'll appear on local when you warp around, but not when the device is on. To the attentive you are still there. Otherwise, the cloak has little use given the penalties. You need to be invisible. Fitting Requirements Functional: It would be nice if the CPU reqs were lessened or turned to a percentage of the ship total. It would be nice to see a rampant increase in the reqs for larger ships too. A mention was made to make the fitting of the device cripple other aspects of the ship like a MWD. That is somewhat appealing. Cloaking skill increases cap. RP: It's difficult to mask any large energy source. Functional: The ability to increase your speed while cloaked is kinda useless. Increase the cap by 10% per level seems more reasonable. That way after cloak, the ship has a fighting chance (lots of boosters or maybe lots of armor mods and use rails, etc). Just my 2 cents...
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.10.21 17:05:00 - [52] Quote: The cloacking device shouldnt be a pirate tool, but a tool for everyone. Making people able to warp with it on shouldnt be, for instance: Why dont use a MWD? Making it impossible to warp with a MWD will make it a pirate tool - because you will be able to make only one thing with it then - gatecamping. free speech not allowed here
Veln	Posted - 2003.10.21 19:08:00 - [53] Edited by: Veln on 21/10/2003 19:11:00 Why would you want to not be seen? Honestly now, any attack involving some sort of suprise such as this "cloaking field" would inevitably be linked to pirating or "cheating". I tend to recall the German U-boats were being accused of piracy and some pretty low things, despite providing a very real force for the German nation. Gate campers have no real use for a cloaking field anyway. They tend to obliterate the target with overwhelming force before they can react. Should they hide with a cloak field, get some little friends out (frigates) and start combing the area. Sooner or later one of them will be found. Given the current cloaking penalties... he should be easy pickings. Maybe the uncloak distance should be increased? 3k? edit: MWD? You can't activate anything while cloaked.
Zeus	Posted - 2003.10.22 18:47:00 - [54] I always seem to worry when people say things shouldn’t be in the game because pirates can do this, pirates could do that. It’s often said by the people who either don’t want to fight (and want a easy ride) or have little game experience to understand the mechanics of combat. It is encouraging to here we all agree to the need for enhanced stealth in the way the device works. But when we come to the sticky issue of combat people seem to be always addressing the issue from the pilot seat of an industrial ship. Rather than actually modes of combat its self. As said before what generally are the uses of a cloaking device and what “Can” it offer to the game in content and combat that cannot already be done in some form? Well it allows you to make tactical options from a position of stealth. So ok if say for example the wish’s of the board with regards to the appearance in local and the scanner get heard (which I agree to in a sense) and you are now Completely invisible and no one can know your there. Assuming all the other options are the same lets see what we can do. Since we all seem to be worried about gate camping -_- and were all in frail industrials -_- and we are in fact in 0.0 space -_- lets imagine a situation. Your there camping your happy ass of at a star gate in your Dominix lets say. Your cloaked and can give it as good as you can take it just minus your shields. Then comes your prey, an industrial flying alone quite happily with its teddy bears and “I love the world” stickers in its rear window. You are ready so you de-cloak, now here comes the uncertain part, is he or is he not paying attention. Well as much as I care what happens to a afk indy pilot in 0.0 space I don’t. So lets count up the seconds before the Dominix can fire. 3 Seconds no target time on de-cloak now without and sensor booster you have to add a further 8 without add 2 to 4 depending how many he has equipped. So lets make that 5-6 seconds before anything bad can happen. Anyone with Half a brain would have left by then. So shall we ask our self’s. Why did I bother cloaking :/ Now lets turn the tables, you’re an experienced battleship pilot waiting around a gate for a pirate that has been reported in the area to be around. Not only is he packing a mean set off guns he’s also padded out his mid slots with some useful items that make your life not worth living. You are waiting at a gate, your cloaked in say a Dominix like before while he is in an Armageddon. He is kitted out to attack and would probably engage you regardless of your cloak so If we follow the same chain of events as before your lock time is 6 seconds and his is 4, your minus your shields most of your cap and could probably be target jammed before you could even do so if he was equipped correctly and in another ship. How are you going to win the situation while retaining the cloak as a useful item? Well they only way I can see it working is if you can lock the target passively before you de-cloak. It’s the only way you have a possibility of winning a fight or if you can cloak while your targeted. Then it becomes a means of retreat and a means of attack otherwise it’s a useless item that makes someone jump in the seat for a brief period while they click warp. So once again why use it :/ I’d like to address the people who seem to think being a pirate and cheating come hand in hand. Piracy is part of the game and “should” be a viable but somewhat risky practise. True though many of the pirates to date have lacked in the common sense and courtesy department but there will always be some like that. So it stands to reason why there are not many in the game to begin with, perhaps because there’s no practical way of doing it currently but I will not get into that since it is not my concern. But I get the impression people would like methods of piracy to just go away completely. I usually try not to be judgemental in such things but these people just have no clue what so ever. Methods of piracy are methods of combat. By trying to make piracy go away you are simply making combat in it self go away and this seems very much to be a pvp game to me. Rather than saying “ Oh n000z don’t do that the pirates will ownz0r me” say “cool!! If we can do that then new possibilities for game are endless!”. So can we test this item and try to give suggestions to make it useful, rather than “Safe” It is not meant to be safe. It’s a tactical weapon of war and in the wrong hands is supposed to be dangerous.
Acuna Traos	Posted - 2003.10.22 18:54:00 - [55] I think certain modules that require very little power should be activate able in cloak, for one passive targeters. Its passive so it won't give your position away anyway. (however you do need some cap to do this so the 100% cap lo needs to be changed a little, or reduced with a second cloaking skill like 2% less reduction per lvl) However MWD and afterburners are not synonymous to stealth as they use huge amounts of power to operate. I also agree that you should not show up on local nor on the scanner, there should be a scanner module introduced that allows you to locate cloaked ships (as it is now), but not de-cloak them.
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.10.22 23:08:00 - [56] @Zeus: Very well said. @Acuna Traos: I said it twice already and I will say it again: There should be no targeting possible by anymeans with a cloaked ship. If you can they will become insta-jamming machines. free speech not allowed here
Astaroth	Posted - 2003.10.23 04:39:00 - [57] how about u loose lock when u uncloak and only modules such as passive targeter and scanners can be activated in cloak.
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.10.23 09:59:00 - [58] Quote: @Zeus: Very well said. @Acuna Traos: I said it twice already and I will say it again: There should be no targeting possible by anymeans with a cloaked ship. If you can they will become insta-jamming machines. While I agree that insta-jamming should be prevented, I also think that it should be possible while cloaked to lock passively and engage (causing decloaking). As Zeus said, otherwise what's the point? Picking a fight with a ship on equal terms except that you have 0 cap and shields to start with doesn't sound like too hot an idea. A simple solution: allow locks while cloaked, but prevent use of jamming devices for a short period as you decloak -- we could say that decloaking lights you up like a x-mas tree, so locking you is no problem (rendering jammers unusable for that period). Or: "just because"
Zeus	Posted - 2003.10.23 14:14:00 - [59] If you think about it using a normal lock methods means you are actively pinging your target or what ever and people can see that there being targeted by the electromagnetic mess that’s coming towards them. It would be probably better that you can only lock with a mid slot module activated that can achieve lock passively while cutting through interference from the cloak. This uses up a mid slot that people are so worried about also. Besides arnt you supposed to be hidden, it would be a big give away if you were targetted and no one was around :]
CT BadIronTree	Posted - 2003.10.23 15:48:00 - [60] Zeus have you personal test cloak in chaos? 1/3 the things you say are wrone.... please test them i will do the happy caerbear in my Megathron :P on more time... when you cloak you lose ALL your sheild and all your capasity ok? if you uncloak you can warp in 0.2 sec my friend 20000 km away and you cant warp to me... (with out the new scaner) jump from stargate in 0.5 sec :P with out the scaners to look for cloak people all we say are crap... + the new system scaner they are making + how in the hell with 0 capasite slowly recharging you are going to kill the indy or pirate? with 4 capasity bousters? cloak IS NOT for fighting is tackical weapon im my BS with 7 over drive i go 450 m/sec with cloak on i go 65 m/sec with cloak you cant warp you cant lock you cant use enything because you have 0 capasity only the low slot is working and 2-3 stuff that dont need capasity... GO and test is before you speak ============================================ Colossus Technologies The first and oldest corp in eve! BadIronTree Head of Production CSM Chat Log September 25, 2003: Fuhry> Some things we simply cannot test, and therefore we just put it on Tranq. cross our fingers and then get into panic mode. --------------------------------------- playing (or beta testing)since Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:06 (beta 5) ---------------------------------------

Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.10.23 16:07:00 - [61] Well, that module is there already, the passive targeters. But sacrificing a low slot isn't as bad there, a scorp or bb would still have plenty of lows left. It is true that cloaking seems to be pretty useless atm, but allowing it to instajam someone using cloaks to "counter" than would be wrong IMO. That's like allowing jumpin point camping to couter fundamental flaws in the combat system. free speech not allowed here
Zeus	Posted - 2003.10.23 16:59:00 - [62] Quote: Zeus have you personal test cloak in chaos? 1/3 the things you say are wrone.... please test them i will do the happy caerbear in my Megathron :P on more time... when you cloak you lose ALL your sheild and all your capasity ok? if you uncloak you can warp in 0.2 sec my friend 20000 km away and you cant warp to me... (with out the new scaner) jump from stargate in 0.5 sec :P with out the scaners to look for cloak people all we say are crap... + the new system scaner they are making + how in the hell with 0 capasite slowly recharging you are going to kill the indy or pirate? with 4 capasity bousters? cloak IS NOT for fighting is tackical weapon im my BS with 7 over drive i go 450 m/sec with cloak on i go 65 m/sec with cloak you cant warp you cant lock you cant use enything because you have 0 capasity only the low slot is working and 2-3 stuff that dont need capasity... GO and test is before you speak ***Reading CT BadIronTree's Post Standby** Translating** Well.. I tried to find some part of his post that actually talked about something I said being wrong but alas I could not find anything. You spoke truth's of wrap times etc. Yes you can warp quickly and jump quickly. But why am I going to sit around at a gate to wait for someone just so I can warp away from them when they come? And my friend you are actually wrong, you will notice that your capacitor bars are blacked out but 10% is still there just unusable. So my friend you are in fact wrong. Its not the fact you have no capacitor to do anything its that the game gives you error msg's saying your not allowed to do those things. So Yes I have tested it but unlike you it seems I have actual combat experience in fighting people who fight back in 0.0 space. You only seem to know how to ran away :) But this forum is not for those thing so lets stay on topic plz
Zeus	Posted - 2003.10.23 17:39:00 - [63] Seems the Atrributes shows -100% cap now but what I said was true before. Regardless this change has called into question even the basic use. And they have fixed the approach bug using scanner.
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.24 09:36:00 - [64] Does the cap regenerate whilst you are cloaked? If so, it would be useful. If not, then erm It'd be kinda pointless, right? [Heterocephalus glaber]
ChaosOne	Posted - 2003.10.24 10:11:00 - [65] disapointed in how the cloak works. perhaps if they make advanced cloak in the future, they can make it so you can warp whilst cloaked and it has no detrimental effects to your ship apart from using cap. to even out the battle you could have a delay when your ship un-cloaks of 5 - 7.5 secs in this time you have no shields cant lock or activate weapons or modules etc. you could then add into the game anchored cloaking sensors (deployable from ship) which can detect cloacked ships upto a certain distance (or partially detect) and allow people to lock them but with a greatly reduced chance of hitting the ship (increasing as they get closer to the sensors) this could add a whole new side to combat and tactics. just my thoughts on the cloaking saga
Ruffles	Posted - 2003.10.24 14:07:00 - [66] Ok, having read the whole lot. I think its pretty fair to say the general concensus is that a fleet of cloaked battleships undetectable unless you are within 1.5km is a bad thing. It is already a very powerful vessel. Power and CPU requirements of the modules needs to be different. The impact on a battleship loosing one turret slot isn't as great as it is for a cruiser or frigate. Some ideas: 1) Size should matter, and the systems should take that into account. I dread the day when we have fleets of cloaked battleships, and you telling me we can make things that big disappear without any energy emission detection? This surely should affect range massively if you decide battleships should cloak. It would be dire if the game completely degenerates into bigger-is-winner mentality. 2) Different negatives for different types of ships. Frigates perhaps having a loss of a medium module, but still remain high speed, but make the speed of movement increase the proximity detection (after all most of them are practially useless at present in fights anyway) and slightly increasing their lock times. After all a fast moving transparent thing might still catch the eye, or sensors. Cruisers are harder to balance I fear, as they will suffer in most places from the use of this module type. I really don't think battleships should have cloaking, it could be terribly bad for the game especially in light of the start they have taken, odds are that some possitive increases will come to the modules over time. I think I read somewhere about someone having a seperate skill to increase the type of ship they would be able to use cloaking on. The idea is a very good basic premise, and is something that could be looked at. That way the most powerful ships in the game can't be invisible, and have to take the fact that being that big and bad comes at a cost. 3) ECM is possibly the hardest thing to balance here. What is a fair time to wait post decloak for them to try this? I see that passive targetting has a use, but I agree with others all it takes is two ships one jamming you and another loaded with missiles, and you are dead anyway, no matter how little power those ships have. 4) Local chat seems to be a problem with a lot of things, people trying to bounty hunt, people knowing an attack is coming before it is due. My idea. Dispose of the list of people in local full stop. Let anyone talk there that wants to, but doing so might give away the fact they are there. Still allow it to be useful for chats, but do not show anyone in it at all. That way you settle both sides of the arguement, and no one just uses the fact that 5 people from the same corp jumped in as a reason to do anything at all. Loose the list of people in local chat, just make it a talking place. Just some thoughts, hope it helps stir up some more ideas.
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.24 23:07:00 - [67] you have some points but some things are funny... it is not possible to not have a number in local... think about it... it only takes a few sec... if someone types what will you put? an X on that players name? or what? i mean come on... the # also shows the people on the right side... so you take that out... you still have peoples names show with there msg... if you put an X what is the point in chatting if you have NO idea who said what... only know what you said LOL maybe make an option when you are clocked to show your self in local or not... or just be able to read local... and not have your name show up... BUT if you type it... then your cover is blown and you show up in local.... that is the best idea i can see. everyone without a cloaking device... and those who are do not have it active will show up in local as they do now... but when you cloak you will have disappear from local... or have option to show in local, just a toggle thing... BUT you still show be able to READ local... as that shouldnÆt give away your local thatÆs like just intercepting a transmition. NOW if you had a device that could track a person who is reading a local channel that would be cool... of course then you would have to give option to completely cut your self from local but then you will be truly gone from local and not detectable, unless someone uses some module to find you, within range. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Wild Rho	Posted - 2003.10.25 00:31:00 - [68] Maybe they should tie in cloaking abilites in with skill levels. When at level 1 u only have the basic use of a cloaking device such as u can still be seen in local and all that other crap. At max level u are virutally invisible and it takes a good counter module and skill to pick up on you or somthing. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.10.25 02:12:00 - [69] Quote: it is not possible to not have a number in local... think about it... it only takes a few sec... if someone types what will you put? an X on that players name? or what? i mean come on... the # also shows the people on the right side... so you take that out... you still have peoples names show with there msg... if you put an X what is the point in chatting if you have NO idea who said what... only know what you said LOL¦[/qoute] If you won't appear in local you cannot type something there as well, that is pretty clear. free speech not allowed here
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.10.25 09:41:00 - [70] Quote: Quote: it is not possible to not have a number in local... think about it... it only takes a few sec... if someone types what will you put? an X on that players name? or what? i mean come on... the # also shows the people on the right side... so you take that out... you still have peoples names show with there msg... if you put an X what is the point in chatting if you have NO idea who said what... only know what you said LOL¦[/qoute] If you won't appear in local you cannot type something there as well, that is pretty clear. I think if you read the original post again, you'll find the quote: "Dispose of the list of people in local full stop" While you wouldn't be able to see the listing of pilots currently in the system, you'd still be able to chat and see the name and the image of the pilot. It would work the same as if you have hidden the list by pressing the <person-icon> in the top-right corner of the chat window. Other than that, the local channel should be labeled "local" and not "local [#of-pilots-in-system]".

Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.25 21:41:00 - [71] Quote: Quote: Quote: it is not possible to not have a number in local... think about it... it only takes a few sec... if someone types what will you put? an X on that players name? or what? i mean come on... the # also shows the people on the right side... so you take that out... you still have peoples names show with there msg... if you put an X what is the point in chatting if you have NO idea who said what... only know what you said LOL¦[/qoute] If you won't appear in local you cannot type something there as well, that is pretty clear. I think if you read the original post again, you'll find the quote: "Dispose of the list of people in local full stop" While you wouldn't be able to see the listing of pilots currently in the system, you'd still be able to chat and see the name and the image of the pilot. It would work the same as if you have hidden the list by pressing the <person-icon> in the top-right corner of the chat window. Other than that, the local channel should be labeled "local" and not "local [#of-pilots-in-system]". why i the world would you hide all the local number of players? what benefit will this give? there are times when you want to know who is in hte system just because... THEN you would have to take out the # of pilots in SPACE!!! on the map as well, and this will just be stupid. The only thing that makes sense is that the person who activates cloaking then they should be gone from the # of people in space and in local... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.10.26 04:43:00 - [72] Quote: why i the world would you hide all the local number of players? what benefit will this give? there are times when you want to know who is in hte system just because... THEN you would have to take out the # of pilots in SPACE!!! on the map as well, and this will just be stupid. The only thing that makes sense is that the person who activates cloaking then they should be gone from the # of people in space and in local... The reason for hiding all information in #local about who is present would be to provide even more uncertaincy about a given system. The info on the map is delayed a few minutes, so it only gives you a rough idea of how many pilots are present -- it gives an assault force a small window of time to attack in without having the campers run because #local suddenly jumps from 5 to 15. IMO the problem with #local is more fundamental than pertaining to cloaking. Why should I be forced to let my presence be known? I think it should be an option -- if you wish, you can let yourself be listed in #local and by that also get access to the list.
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.26 10:23:00 - [73] Quote: Quote: why i the world would you hide all the local number of players? what benefit will this give? there are times when you want to know who is in hte system just because... THEN you would have to take out the # of pilots in SPACE!!! on the map as well, and this will just be stupid. The only thing that makes sense is that the person who activates cloaking then they should be gone from the # of people in space and in local... The reason for hiding all information in #local about who is present would be to provide even more uncertaincy about a given system. The info on the map is delayed a few minutes, so it only gives you a rough idea of how many pilots are present -- it gives an assault force a small window of time to attack in without having the campers run because #local suddenly jumps from 5 to 15. IMO the problem with #local is more fundamental than pertaining to cloaking. Why should I be forced to let my presence be known? I think it should be an option -- if you wish, you can let yourself be listed in #local and by that also get access to the list. well even though i see your point, i dont think ccp will do that now... its been that way since i remember though now i kind of agree with you but this should be done when ccp fixes the issue with lag and your ship loading etc... once that is fixed and they put this in as well as cloaking i could see this a great strat to use, but until those peaces dont come together it would be bad to put 1 without the others IMO support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Spaceman Jack	Posted - 2003.10.26 16:23:00 - [74] This would be a perfect oppertunity to make Frigates mean something again. Limit cloaks to Frigates.. Cruisers maybe.. but no Battleships or Indys. Or make the energy needs for such bigger ships restricivly high. Now you have an actual tactical need for a mixed fleet.
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.10.26 17:53:00 - [75] For what? For frigates (or cruiser) sitting cloaked somewhere and can do nothing when they uncloak. because they have no cap or shields? Cloaking has atm no tactical use at all. free speech not allowed here
Xavier VanXian	Posted - 2003.10.26 19:18:00 - [76] Quote: For what? For frigates (or cruiser) sitting cloaked somewhere and can do nothing when they uncloak. because they have no cap or shields? Cloaking has atm no tactical use at all. Thena make frigate cap and shields loses minimal or just small , cruiser loses may be on the other hand high, and battleships may be forbiden to cloak -- I'm minimal threat --
RoTorHeaD	Posted - 2003.10.27 01:02:00 - [77] Quote: Quote: For what? For frigates (or cruiser) sitting cloaked somewhere and can do nothing when they uncloak. because they have no cap or shields? Cloaking has atm no tactical use at all. Thena make frigate cap and shields loses minimal or just small , cruiser loses may be on the other hand high, and battleships may be forbiden to cloak Then change fitting requirements to -50% cpu and powergrid requirements of the equiped ship as well as no more than 500 shields or cap allowed on the ship when so equiped, whether cloaked or not. Keep the speed penalties while cloaked. Allow passive targeting while cloaked, but firing will uncloak it for a several seconds, but will auto recloak unless someone initiates a target lock or it takes damage. Set ECM restrictions that won't allow any ECM to be initiated in conjunction with a passive targeter. Allow ship, cargo, roid scanners to operate while cloaked. Allow cloaking while in warp, but prevent warping from one minute after cloaking. This should make cloaking somewhat useful.
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.27 06:30:00 - [78] what good will, cloaked frig's and cruisers do? vs a BB fleet? that has full cap and sheilds? I mean you uncloak with very slow speed and have no cap and no sheilds... how can that give you an advantage? when you are going to be fighting vs BB's this idea to limit only to frig and cruisers will make this item useless for sure, just like others have said support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Kunming	Posted - 2003.10.27 08:15:00 - [79] @Drutorn: I dont agree with ur last comment there, I would hate to see BSs cruising around in cloak an blowing up stations... Frigates and cruisers are doomed to extinction so CCP puts up a cloaking device to give them a role again, but this thing certainly needs balancing. My suggestion is: -If u can cloak u should be fast and agile and use it as a hit 'n run device. -If u can cloak u shouldn't be able to have thick armor with lots of protection. -Just take Star Trek as example, where the cloaking ships are (mostly) very agile ones, ballancing out the forces. Intercepting since BETA
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.10.27 21:11:00 - [80] Like this warbird you mean, which is bigger than the Enterprise? Actually there is no size/agility difference in ST I can see about the cloaking/noncloaking ships. The federation vessels are not more or less agile than the klingon or romulan ones and are not bigger either. free speech not allowed here

Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.27 22:20:00 - [81] Quote: @Drutorn: I dont agree with ur last comment there, I would hate to see BSs cruising around in cloak an blowing up stations... Frigates and cruisers are doomed to extinction so CCP puts up a cloaking device to give them a role again, but this thing certainly needs balancing. My suggestion is: -If u can cloak u should be fast and agile and use it as a hit 'n run device. -If u can cloak u shouldn't be able to have thick armor with lots of protection. -Just take Star Trek as example, where the cloaking ships are (mostly) very agile ones, ballancing out the forces. WHAT IS THE POINT? its not like you can blow up stuff when your cloaked!! why would you limit to what ship can cloak or not... there is no logic, unless you want to make different cloaking as in high slot and mid slot and have diff % and stuff... but there is nothing that should stop a ship to be cloaked just based on size... you could cloak a station, if you had enough power to keep it cloaked and a powerful enough cloaking device.. because that is just way out there in size... unlike a cruiser or a frig... they are not who konws how far fetched in size. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Eva Luna	Posted - 2003.10.28 12:12:00 - [82] How about balancing Cloaking with: 1) Skill Say it lets you Cloak a certain sized Ship. Either do it by Ship type (Level 1 for Frigates, etc) or by Signature Radius. You could add other Skills for improving Cloaked Speed, etc ("Controlled Engine Emissions" etc) 2) Penalties I could believe a Frigate Cloaking easily... its NOT that big, engine heat and shield output, etc will be a lot less than a Battleship. A Frigate Cloak would take less to maintain than a Cruisers Cloak. Scale the penalties to the Ship type (or to Signature Radius?). This would encourage people to use Cloaking on Frigates, etc instead of Battleships, but not leave anybody out Just a thought WTB: Ewok Hangglider Blueprint!
ChironV	Posted - 2003.10.28 17:04:00 - [83] Edited by: ChironV on 28/10/2003 17:05:13 For PVP its tactically useless. Carebear heaven. However. It did occur to me that if you load up with cap injectors you can recover from a dead cap to 50% or above with these injectors. Add on armor and you may have enough to instantly wjam, web and obliterate foes as you appear in front of them. Has anyone given cap injectors a try? ________________________________________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
Kunming	Posted - 2003.10.29 07:56:00 - [84] I think u ppl forget that bigger ships are "really" slow, and need ABs or MWDs to get a decent speed, since the cloaking device is taking away all your energy that means bigger ships will go like snails. This limits the operation range of BSs and Cruisers in various missions, that means frigates will have a new role again. Maybe with the introducing of elite frigates some unbalances in the ship classes will be solved, since the fast frigates are actually not that fast cause they dont have the energy and capacitor advantage of the bigger ones (which can use numerous amounts of MWDs or ABs)... Well that were my 2 cents. Intercepting since BETA
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.10.30 21:29:00 - [85] you're targetted and under attack. Guns are firing, drones are circling, and missiles are inbound. You activate your cloak. What happens??? You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Loana	Posted - 2003.10.31 01:04:00 - [86] They should just use the same principle as Earth and Beyond Cloacking... they wy they did it was wicked. Also For example do more damage with beams after u decloak... and stuff like that. EnB had some great ideas, not sure how its now as i quit playing once EVE was out.
ElCoCo	Posted - 2003.10.31 11:07:00 - [87] Quick Q for you testers.... WHEN the cloak drops when you are within 1,5km of another ship...does it also drop if a fellow corp or gang member closes in on you? Too many posts so sorry if some1 already said that
Kunming	Posted - 2003.10.31 11:36:00 - [88] Quote: Like this warbird you mean, which is bigger than the Enterprise? Actually there is no size/agility difference in ST I can see about the cloaking/noncloaking ships. The federation vessels are not more or less agile than the klingon or romulan ones and are not bigger either. I was not thinking of the romulan warbird ofcourse more like the klingon "Bird Of Prey" (cant remember the original name was it Vortcha or something?) Anyway I found out a tactic where 3-4 cloaked frigates can easyly take out a BS in 3-4secs. And sorry that I wont tell it u. But I can tell one thing: Speed is of the essence in the cloaking and think that CCP has balanced the device very good. Intercepting since BETA
ElCoCo	Posted - 2003.10.31 13:28:00 - [89] Quote: Anyway I found out a tactic where 3-4 cloaked frigates can easyly take out a BS in 3-4secs. And sorry that I wont tell it u. But I can tell one thing: Speed is of the essence in the cloaking and think that CCP has balanced the device very good. 3-4 secs?...what will the frigs be firing? It`s hard enough for 4 BS`s to finish another1 in 10 secs with wrecking hits...and that`s if he`s afk or forgot to shield boost or whatever
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.10.31 16:57:00 - [90] Quote: Anyway I found out a tactic where 3-4 cloaked frigates can easyly take out a BS in 3-4secs. And sorry that I wont tell it u. Then get off the test server and stop hunting for secret potential exploits? You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.

Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.11.01 09:40:00 - [91] Edited by: Ana Khouri on 01/11/2003 09:42:31 Quote: you're targetted and under attack. Guns are firing, drones are circling, and missiles are inbound. You activate your cloak. What happens??? Nothing - since you cannot cloak when you are targeted. Quote: 3-4 secs?...what will the frigs be firing? It`s hard enough for 4 BS`s to finish another1 in 10 secs with wrecking hits...and that`s if he`s afk or forgot to shield boost or whatever She probably thinks of of 4 kestrels firing cruise missles. Won't be enough, though. First, the cloaking device is a highslot item, so a kestrel only will be able to mount 3 launchers. With 4 kestrels that's a maximum damage of 4000 damage - that will only kill the BS shields (or it's shields and half of his armor if he uses a MWD). free speech not allowed here
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.11.01 13:16:00 - [92] Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 01/11/2003 13:35:35 um star trek lets see .. :) vortcha are as far as I can remember the larger klingon main battle ships that only pop up in the big war scenes ususally (possibly older too .. but larger all the same) Birds of prey are relatively small, agile ships packing largeish guns and a cloak, they uncloak behind/to the side of someone, let off a full volley and recloak and reposition to repeat it over, so a larger enemy doesn't get a good chance to counter-attack would be good if frigates could do that .. :) the romulan Warbirds and other starfleet star-ship size cloaking vessels tend to just uncloak and start firing .. presumably too expensive (and/or there too slow/not agile enough) to pull off the same strategy as the birds of prey (edit add :) ) or they couldnt be bothered doing the cgi ;) . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.11.02 15:18:00 - [93] The only improvement I¦d like to see is being able to warp cloaked and being able to enable or disable the module in warp. Apart from this though I think the module is totally ok. IMO cloaking should be used by scouts and spies only, therefor the current restrictions are fine. Cloaking in battleships is basically useless but IMO battleships shouldn¦t be able to cloak anway. I think the best would be to limit cloaking to frigates only. Mai's Idealog
Kaylon Syi	Posted - 2003.11.04 20:08:00 - [94] Quote: The only improvement I¦d like to see is being able to warp cloaked and being able to enable or disable the module in warp. Apart from this though I think the module is totally ok. IMO cloaking should be used by scouts and spies only, therefor the current restrictions are fine. Cloaking in battleships is basically useless but IMO battleships shouldn¦t be able to cloak anway. I think the best would be to limit cloaking to frigates only. Sorry I disagree. Cloaking as far as I can tell ( yes I like star trek ) is a a popular device because we have seen it in Star Trek. Every Sci-Fi game that I have played has had some form of cloak based around ST. Also ( here comes my Trek Geek Speek ) in a Nex Generation Episode "Pegusus" The Enterprise under Picard fitted a Cloak that could pass thru objects. Why should Frigates only be able to use Cloaks. Do you have anything against Cruisers and BS using cloaks. Its our ship that takes the resource hit not yours. If you don't want to see an Armageddon, Apoc, Raven or Scorpion ( the only ships i would use it on - maybe typhoon ) uncloak in front of you and blast you to smitherenes... don't go to a place where it can happen....
sokkusu	Posted - 2003.11.05 09:34:00 - [95] bs shouldn't cloak because : 1 ) there are powerfull enough (it have too many advantage over the other class). 2 ) actualy, once you have a bs, the frigates are useless. It'll give another option to this class ship but to be a newbie ship.
Waahoo	Posted - 2003.11.05 12:14:00 - [96] Quote: Ana: I agree on all but the no targetting while cloaked. I think you should be able to target but any offensive action should render you visible. Such as ECM, Firing, Draining their cap etc The code to detect offensive actions is already in game so we know it is possilbe. With this setup you could cloak and scan ships that pass and relay information to others. But you cannot use ecm or fire without decloaking. I think you should be able to lock while cloaked so long as initiating this action causes you to decloak, this includes using the passive targeters therwise they would be fitted in tandem. Actually do it, as this would allow lock and give the cloaked ship that element of surprise it was looking for, but tie up a mid slot as well. If the shields dont come up to fast the target would stilll have a chance to kill the aggressor -- Proud to be a Dentist.....pliers and drills at the ready. Is it safe? <buzzzzzz>
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.07 01:36:00 - [97] Make the penalties go up with size of ship (Size - that doesnt just eman class). But give the frigates a break and let them have the smallest posible penalty of all.... and, ftlog, make different modules for each class of ship. There are only 3 classes atm after all...
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.11.08 13:19:00 - [98] 4 with indys free speech not allowed here
Deadflip2	Posted - 2003.11.09 14:00:00 - [99] Quote: @Drutorn: I dont agree with ur last comment there, I would hate to see BSs cruising around in cloak an blowing up stations... Frigates and cruisers are doomed to extinction so CCP puts up a cloaking device to give them a role again, but this thing certainly needs balancing. My suggestion is: -If u can cloak u should be fast and agile and use it as a hit 'n run device. -If u can cloak u shouldn't be able to have thick armor with lots of protection. -Just take Star Trek as example, where the cloaking ships are (mostly) very agile ones, ballancing out the forces. its fine the way it is, bss are ment to be uber unless the pilot is a rela elite, ccp shouldnt help to ballance this, besides bss do cost 1000 times as much as a frigate! --- "this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me. I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist OMG im a pretzel!!!
Aron Wyx	Posted - 2003.11.11 17:57:00 - [100] Having read only half of the posts above I don't know if anybody allready suggested this, but I think it would be nice if there were different types of cloaking devices corresponding to the different ship classes i.e. a frigate cloaking module (that required skill level 1) a cruiser cloaking module (requirering a skill level of 3) and an industrial and/or battleship cloaking module (that require skill level 5). Then the three different modules could have power and cpu requirements that were fitting for the ship classes and the effectiveness of the three types could be controlled seperately - in paticular the uncloaking delay and the detection range (both should be larger foe larger ships). Just my thoughts anyway... Aron Wyx

VILA Restal	Posted - 2003.11.16 14:05:00 - [101] How about making the first cloaking modules available on Tranquility for frigates only? It would make sense RP-wise, as the technology is new & would require more research and testing before cloaking devices for larger ships were developed. It would also mean 'real' testing would be able to be done, using more players than are currently using the test server. I feel it would then be easier for the devs to decide if the current set-up is unbalanced BEFORE giving the technology to the huge damage-dealing monstrosity that is a battleship.
Ordo Abchao	Posted - 2003.11.18 05:16:00 - [102] Quote: How about making the first cloaking modules available on Tranquility for frigates only? It would make sense RP-wise, as the technology is new & would require more research and testing before cloaking devices for larger ships were developed. It would also mean 'real' testing would be able to be done, using more players than are currently using the test server. I feel it would then be easier for the devs to decide if the current set-up is unbalanced BEFORE giving the technology to the huge damage-dealing monstrosity that is a battleship. I would think it would be the opposite as new technologies usualy start as monstrosities and then get miniturized. Order out of Chaos
Blueblooded	Posted - 2003.11.19 01:39:00 - [103] I have a few opinions on some general issues regarding cloaking. * First I think that an advanced cloaking mechanism should be able to fool the ship scanners. In order to uncloak a ship you should need some kind of uncloaking device with equal (but not nessesary the same) disadvantages. * I think that logicaly a small ship should be easier to cloak then a large ship, i.e the cloaking module should be ship class specific, perheps with greater disadvantages for lager ship classes. * If cloaking should be a offencive weapon it could require a high slot, but it "feels" more lika a med slot kind of module, used as a sort of shield or protection. * I think that the skill requirements to fit a cloaking device shouldn't be so high, I would like to say that the skill investment should be like shield harderners or less but I also realy would like some kind of "advanced cloaking operation" witch reduces the penalies for a much higher skill investment. * Locking while cloaking should be disabled, at least without any passive targeting modules. It would be a neet feature if you could lock with passive targeting and use ship/cargo scanners in order to spy on other ships or maby you could use other modules aswell (i.e weapons) since the penaly greatly reduces the combat capabilitys anyway. Ofcurse you should be instanly uncloaked when fireing or using any other offencive weapons(i.e EW). * Disapearing from local while cloaked should not be alowed. Hiding your ship from beeing seen is hardly the same thing as not transmitting any signals. I could agree if all chatt windows were closed since then the cloaked ship then has no communiction. But then again, cloaking only make the ship disapear right? --- well this was my humble opinion. Cloaking, if implemented in a good way, could be great and probebly improve the combat experience. This should be fun ---------------------------------------- "The royal blood is blue, hence my name"
Kunming	Posted - 2003.11.20 01:52:00 - [104] I think there is a difference between cloaking and phase shifting... Everyone thinks that the cloaking device in EVE is a phase cloaker. The cloaking device in EVE can be seen as the stealth feature of the RL bombers and fighters. (eg. F-117) U know its there but u just cant locate it, and if u get close enough u gonna see it! A phasing device is a more futuristic one; putting the ship (material) in to a sub-space bubble, making it unable to get affected by the normal universe. Ofcourse its discusable for how long a ship can stay in this state and/or should there be scanners that scan the space fabric for sub-space changes. So my last word on this is dont expect this to be of too much use for PvP or "running", just another tool for caldari pirates. I can already imagine ppl whining about it, and devs nerfing it even more, lol Intercepting since BETA
Nervar	Posted - 2003.11.21 14:55:00 - [105] Well i finnaly got my ass on to chaos and tryed the cloacking device. My conclusion is: At its current state its uterly useless. The speed shouldnt get nerfed and locking while cloacked should bee possible. -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
Reiisha	Posted - 2003.11.24 00:23:00 - [106] Hmm.... everyone just wants the cloaking device to be the ultimate pvp module it seems..... no cap drain no speed reduce targetting ability "firing ability" while cloaked invisibility/no invisibility in local In other words, not a single drawback? I think this thread will go on for a little while :D Gamersland.nl, DE site voor PC gaming!
Drutort	Posted - 2003.11.24 08:28:00 - [107] Quote: Hmm.... everyone just wants the cloaking device to be the ultimate pvp module it seems..... no cap drain no speed reduce targetting ability "firing ability" while cloaked invisibility/no invisibility in local In other words, not a single drawback? I think this thread will go on for a little while :D its not about NO... its about NOT -100% stuff like that... heck -50% in some areas is bad enough no they have to make it -100% in say sheilds? why not skill to make the negative or the penelties to go down a bit... and im all for diff class cloaking as well... and for diff ships... if you think about it it should be different item just like gun sizes for ships... make cloaking have strengths and make it so that you could use a frig cloaking device on a BS but it would not work very well and could be detected very easy... and you would need a BS size cloaking to work right... just like you can put a S gun on a BS even though it does dmg its quite weak vs a L gun and the range etc... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Victor Mason	Posted - 2003.11.24 11:59:00 - [108] I think that they are great :D look forward to them on TQ :D no cap and no sheild is realist :D just fit Cap boosters :D
Sasha D	Posted - 2003.11.24 15:37:00 - [109] Greetings all, it is certainly very heated up topic and so I decided to put some "oil into the fire". I sincerely hope that CCP/Polaris/GM reads our postings. I think as every technology cloack have to start from the beginning. I am a newbie into this game but developed few of the oppinions already. I thought that pseudo cloack already existed in form of sensor units until a friend of mine proved me wrong. It appears at current moment sensor units is only to determine a sensor strenght for jamming/antijamming purposes. My original thought was sensor strenght was (or may be itshould be ;) defnied by actually seeing the ship (rectangle) on the screen. Let say my sensor strenght is 16 that mean I can see a human ship rectangle at 130km but can not target it tough. THe less sensor unit strenght the closer distance for the ship to be detected. In another words may be the need for cloack can be introduced by "fixing" or "modifiying" sensor units. Cause now for example to jam the ship the ship's sensor strenght have to be reduced to a 0 or negative. It all makes sense but please correct me if I am wrong the sensor unit is not really a dynamic variable at the current state of the game. May be the approach it is just a bit "phased out" so to speak. :) I think what we have been discussing as "cloack" should be at least 4-5 new skills and many many more items. And I think CCP should not "roll up" this technology but leave something for the future updates and our non human intelligence which I have a gut feeling eventually will be introduced into this universe. :) The sensor units I think have to become dynamic variable instead of static. Which will add another side into the game which is not actual cloacking but would spice up the game tremendously. Again I played this game for close to 2 months so still may be wrong on it. Let say there is a modules multisensor backups they really do NOT do anything except protect ship from potential jamming instead of increasing ship's actual sensor strenght - in my mind it is equals ability to see ships from a particular distance make them being visible to the sensors. Let say we can make each sensro unit equals to 7km-8km of vision or ability SEEING the ship not locking it up only seeing it the form of rectangle on the screen. That would create a lot of situations where one ship wth lesser sensor strenght will not be able to see a ship at the dsitance with higher sensor strenght. AT this point from reports of my freinds in corporation and my own searches is not begin done this way. Each ship's rectangle disappeears after 138 km doesn't matter which ship frigate cruiser or BS. In another words sensor strenght connected only to jamming antijamming abilities instead of being ACTUAL dynamic variable. THan if that would be "fixed" it will give a waay more exciting possibilities where sensor backup modules will be not only installed for jaming and antijamming purposes but for ACTUAL increasing of ability of seeing ship in the form of rectangle on the screen than it makes only sense that bascially targeting boosters - or what has been called a sensor boosters will take care of actual ability to target ship. In my first days of playing this game I was soo sure that there is a difference between seeing ship (sensor units ECCM/ECM) and targeting ship (sensor boosters/sensor dampeners). IN the case of ecm/eccm will create a cases where ships approaching will be literally invisible to the other ships casue the difference between sensor strenghts. I would love to see it in the future patches. Now there is such a thing as invisibility whic may be achieved or should be achieved by a few ways. First is simply "tricking" opponents sensors in assuming that opponent is not there. Right now I think sensor units is totally... well.... undeveloped. It is my understanding that even a ship with sensor strenght 1 will do all things regulary as a ship with sensor strenght 16 whic is a bit silly to me :) Under ideal circumstances ship that is away let say 80km from a ship should not be visible to a ship with sensor strenght 4 but should be visible with ship with sensor strenght 14 or 16. ( just example) That would create a case os... shall we call it "sensor cloacking". It is a bit risky but I think it is already bein implemented with NPC ships. I was flying a Maller in my early days and encountered Shansa's beast. After a lock Shansa disappeared from my screen completely. Literally... the cross has vanished.. than I engaged my eccm 2 points for all races low and behold suddenly cross for Shansa beast reappeared about 7km from me :) I was sooo sure he jammed me. I am not sure how right I am but this is a case of "cloacking" by cheating enemy sensors. Does it makes sense? BUt I don't think the same code is implemented for PVP cases. Only NPC cases. Again please correct me if I am wrong but I am still slightly confused about whole thing named cloacking.
Sasha D	Posted - 2003.11.24 15:46:00 - [110] Now there is may be another way of cloack more authentic way of cloack is by using ( I don't know a better way of putting it) a gravimetric cloack/magnetometric cloakc/light cloakc (against ladars) and radio cloack. This type of cloack will work agasinst certain sensors types casue they are sooo very different in it's characteristics. So we may have a race specific cloacks with a different strenght and different properties. Let CPP introduce some rare pirate cloack devices. Let say a left overs of technology Jovia empire left before it passed trough that blackhole in no return region. I think imagination is our best friend here :) The idea behind sensor types was sooo cool for a different races. I think CCP should expand this idea. Now there is should be also a multirace cloacks that is very rare and can be taken only from 50-60k ships and pirate battelships that will appear in teh future. I believe a future introduction of non human intelligence or development of the story in regard to Jovians will give us a possibility of meeting a totally new type of cloakc. A transdimensional subatomic accelerator that will give a ship and it's crew within magnetic grid containment field to get out of phase so to speak with current space and time continuum. Only non human intelligence that iwll be later introduced into the game <that is my gut feeling> should posses such a technology. Also how which ship can be subatomicaly accelerated should be define by the race. ANd let say to ahve from 5 to 10 different levels of acceleration. The last method would allow ship simply to pass trough the matter and it can not be detected by any tech available currently. THat would be cool. Now to get down to Earth so to speak :) I hope first which sensor cheating level of cloacking will be fixed by CCP. Second cloacking device should have a few skill books for it. FIrstly cloacking device should be race specific and the most rare ones can be obtained from 50-60k spawns. These ones will be multiracial and even these ones should have few types available. Let's make it really interesting. :) The skills are.. let say: 1. Cloack operation - the skill will have 5 levels and will require Engineering level4 and Electronics level4 will give a cap points . 2. Cloack containment field efficiency - the skill will have 5 levels and will require navigation level 4 and engineering level 4 and Electronics level4 will grant a speed as to how fast ship will go without loosing it's cloack cause obviously speed will be destabilizing factor on the cloack. 3. Frigate Cloack - the skill will have 5 levels the skill will be absollutely to maintain a cloack within a prticular range of the nearby ships. The higher sill the closer ship can get to the near by ships without being noticed 4.Cruiser cloack (same things for cruisers) 5. BS cloack coack (same things for BS) 6. Titan cloack (same things for titans) Obviously it is not how I thing it "should be". It is just food for thought for al to concider deveopers included. THere is another thing that pops into my mind is a comment I heard about disbalance between BS and frigates. I personally do not see any disbalance. Battleships cost like 57 mil up to a 100 mil. PEOple have to put a LOT of work even to get to that level. SO I think there is no disbalance. I had to mine 12 hours a day for 3 weeks even to get to the cruiser level. I think some of the experienced players in Eve forgetting how tough sometimes it can be for a noobs to advance in this game :) SO who ever drives cruisers and battelships... the way I see it as driving mercedes XLR :) Yeah it takes a lot of time to get there.. but it is well earned and heey what if person looses BS it is a huuuuge loss for many but a few very very veyr rich people in eve. :) The platinukm insuracne for BS costs like 30 million isk. lol... :) OK I will wrap up this post. Sasha. CEO of OMega Technologies. p.s. Few days ago we lost an Appoc to mister "TANK CEO". :) THat is a huuuge loss and it takes us a while economically to recover. So if U ask me ships are very well balanced. ANd draw back of battleships? It is not how powerfull they are but PIRCE PRICE and again PRICE :) I been playing this game for 2 months and still driving a cruiser and do not plan go on BS level not for another month or so.

Sedsiss	Posted - 2003.11.25 06:10:00 - [111] I've been play testing with cloaks for a week now, and have a scorpion which can uncloak, lockdown+jam + kill. It is a great module, but you need a high level cloak skill to counteract the horrible speed penalty (horrible as in cloaking without it drops you to around 12m/s in a bb, which does suck, but is balanced). With cap injectors i can regains all my cap in under 2.5 seconds, which is when i get lock and lockdown. The cloaks DOES need to remove you from the local bar, it was stated before that it would and to back track would be making them gimped. Whats the point of cloaking if they know your there?
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.25 09:46:00 - [112] Edited by: xeno calligan on 25/11/2003 09:47:25 Quote: The cloaks DOES need to remove you from the local bar, it was stated before that it would and to back track would be making them gimped. Whats the point of cloaking if they know your there? Indeed. And it should be possible to warp while cloaked too. Otherwise cloaking is only good for ambush and escaping (sort of, anyway). If you use cloaking to attack, you currently have to warp to the location uncloaked and then cloak. I bet they'll be really surprised when your BS decloaks a few km from the warp-in point a few minutes later. And I bet they'll be really surprised to see that you're still in the same ship.
Sasha D	Posted - 2003.11.25 12:25:00 - [113] Heey everybody, sorry for my a ittle "disjointed post" I been playin Eve for like 20 hours and was literaly falling to sleep.. Yup... people HAVE to be removed from local list or... should be given an option to connect to inner system network or not. It actually should be people's choice with coack or without cloack. I may want to maintain "broadcast silence" or may want to participate in inner system local network. It would be keewl if CCP could make it like this: If you type something in local chat it will automatically hook U up to local network otherwise there is always should be an option to be listed or not to be listed. I never could understand from the first day I played this "local chat" thing. If somebody needs to scout or find somebody send frigate scouts or spies and investigate. It is a sensor's job on the contrary "local chat" job. Local chat is just too easy of finding people in the system. That would make game I think more tactically diverse and heey let's keep map statistics for people who really wanna dig so to speak. To go back directly at cloack issue... ABSOLUTELY.... people with cloack should not even be given an option to be connected to local chat or disconnected from it. They should be disconnected automatically at a time when cloack has been engaged. However.. U typed something U get appeared in local chat. Actually frigates are excellent tool for scouting but heey I am pretty sure it is not used 90% of a time. It is enough simply to get a noob alt and get a waaay more detailed results about the system ad people in it than a scout. As I said from a first day I started playing eve never could understand this "local" thing. To know where all people in a whole system that is in space with presumption that system may have populated planets with billions and billions of people. .... No comment. I am looking forward very much for this module to appear in game Sasha D, CEO of Omega Technologies
Gan Ning	Posted - 2003.11.27 10:16:00 - [114] Quote: How about making the first cloaking modules available on Tranquility for frigates only? I would support that, gives them more purpose. Or alternatively how about changing cloaking so that the bigger the ship is the longer it takes to cloak?
Inquisitus	Posted - 2003.11.27 22:47:00 - [115] Yeah, they HAVE to remove cloaked people from the local chat, and it must be possible to warp while cloaked, otherwise they're gonna know you're there anyway
DarK	Posted - 2003.11.28 05:57:00 - [116] Skill at using Cloaking devices. 20% per level bonus to cloaked velocity How is the bonus calculated? so if for example my ship can go at 300m/s, and i cloak I will be going 30m/s. If i have lvl4 cloaking would it be 30*1.8 = 54 ? Or does it lessen the penalty of the device itself?
MyZteRio	Posted - 2003.11.28 12:04:00 - [117] If only frigates and cruisers would be able to cloak that would make more sense to use these. If BS cannot it would make people choose lower ships above only the biggest. How are u going to cloak something as big as a BS anyway. ------------------------------------------------------------- A virtual Life takes 1/2 a lifetime, if it's worth living.
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.11.29 06:31:00 - [118] Quote: I've been play testing with cloaks for a week now, and have a scorpion which can uncloak, lockdown+jam + kill. ...because scorps are so underpowered already. i especially like how you overcome all the "penalties" in 2.5 seconds... and the counter to cloaking is...? And it will be introduced after how many ships are destroyed with no defense? I'm starting to think the tech introductions are designed to be moneysinks and nothing else. Warpjammers before WCS, webifiers and still no countermodule as promised, etc.... and midslots still rule the day. As fun as this all sounds, there's lots more to do as far as real work in sustainable content, mechanics, and the storyline, before i'm gonna be overjoyed about a pretty trinket to wow us natives. I assure you, the dazzle of the effect will wear off after the screaming starts. You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Azure Skyclad	Posted - 2003.11.30 04:18:00 - [119] Reel this back some and implement a more realistic system for sensor use then cloaking can become and extension of it rather than a bolt on which has little to do with sensors at all. (thats a long sentence i know. It's 4am though ) La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs Star Fraction http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/
Buddrow	Posted - 2003.12.04 02:55:00 - [120] good god, cloaking is pretty well balanced as i see it. its just not for every setup and requires alot of compensation. while yes there should be some more features at least TESTED with it im not so sure they should make it with the modual yet. warping should be possible with cloak... but that then requiers cap adjustment, cause if its a 0 your not warping far. other than that some of you need to be creative with your setups. projectiles don't use energy.... armor can be tanked out. there is alot of options. they just require ALOT of sacrificing. ---------------------------------- "Give me but one firm spot on which to stand, and I will move earth." Archimedes c.287 - 212 BC

StealthNet	Posted - 2003.12.04 06:03:00 - [121] I've been playing with cloaking now for a couple of days. I would like to say that the shield and capacitor cap are justified. But I can't see why a so drastic speed cap. You will be already without any shields or cap, reducing the speed to 20m/s ish is too much. Making it a 20% cap (the other way around) is much more balanced imho. _______________________________________________
Drutort	Posted - 2003.12.04 20:45:00 - [122] Quote: good god, cloaking is pretty well balanced as i see it. its just not for every setup and requires alot of compensation. while yes there should be some more features at least TESTED with it im not so sure they should make it with the modual yet. warping should be possible with cloak... but that then requiers cap adjustment, cause if its a 0 your not warping far. other than that some of you need to be creative with your setups. projectiles don't use energy.... armor can be tanked out. there is alot of options. they just require ALOT of sacrificing. ya and your right, set ups that only some ships will be able to use and all other ships just left in the dust, because the cloak takes away all there strength... and well you get jack then if you dont have what the ship is made for... cloaking will not be used to get within range, it will most likely be, a see and run thing... but if you cant have it on while warping then there is no point at all... because you will be locked before you get there andn what is the point? they know you are there why even bother with cloak if the hole point of cloak so they dont know that you were there... but since youc ant do that there is no reason to use it and have all of those penelties you will just die a lot faster then not having it on... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Serge	Posted - 2003.12.05 10:54:00 - [123] Its a great tool! Fit it on a Tempest with one huge cap-boost and you shoot crap out of anyone. When you have a lock of the surprised you will have cap, you get shields with your X-L shield booster quickly and your guns need no cap so you are a perfect surprise present :) Why be able to warp while cloaked? Don¦t see the need for this! cloak is needed for a scout that watches gates, for a rat or a rathunter that waits for his prey. It¦s not a tool for Joe everage but for the patient hunter! *********************************************** ... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha
Buddrow	Posted - 2003.12.05 18:26:00 - [124] well i belive it was inteded as a ambush modual and not to be used regularly like a sb or a 425 rail. its a rare modual and therefor requires special circumstances. ---------------------------------- "Give me but one firm spot on which to stand, and I will move earth." Archimedes c.287 - 212 BC
KIAHicks	Posted - 2003.12.07 14:35:00 - [125] Edited by: KIAHicks on 07/12/2003 14:41:40 One of the ways I imagined cloaking would work benefit wise, would be to strap a cloaking device + passive targetter + cargo/module scanner on a frigate. Then send the scount to find out details about the camping pirates or other enemy forces. This possibilty means defensive forces need to keep a high speed frigate or more in their fleets that can whizz around all their ships to check there are no cloaked enemy vessels within the 5km distance required to module scan. IMO this would bring more variety to engagments... You'd have to decide whether to have a few high speed ships to help prevent your loadouts been revealed, or whether to just go with the firepower... And that is just one possibly scenario for cloaking, assuming you could do any NONE OFFENSIVE action whilst cloaked and still remain cloaked. It would also require the possibility to warp while cloaked, otherwise you'd have to be very lucky (or should that be unlucky) to be sitting right where the enemy forces will be massing. Finally this would also assume that larger ships would have more trouble locating a smaller ship, which is why a high speed frigate/cruiser would be used AND also that the location distance (to cause a cloaked ship to appear) was not LARGER than the maximum scan distance for cargo/module scanners, otherwise everytime you got close enough to module scan you'd appear and get blasted :P Cloaking should have advantagous uses, but likewise ways to counter it that cause a slight disadvantage (eg the trade off between speed and other critical modules). IMO the nearest real life parrallel would be large aircraft carriers travelling the oceans. Alone they're a big target to the enemys submarines, but with destroyer escort the submarines have a greater chance of been detected.. Ok I'm not too up on the latest technological advances in submarine detection... But I think the comparison holds for WW2 style battles. As to modern day, the submarine is pretty undetecable :P Keenon: "After sitting in the system for FIVE hours without even a (go away)"...
Gan Ning	Posted - 2003.12.08 15:38:00 - [126] Edited by: Gan Ning on 08/12/2003 15:40:12 Cloaking is pretty useless now with the targeting changes. The problem is you can't cloak while you are being targeted. And now that some ships can have a 1 second or under lock speed theres no chance of cloak being used as an evasion tactic. We were testing gate camping on chaos earlier and i warped to gate with the campers and my ship ground to a stop right infront of them. I was thinking it was a new warp field thingy but they said it was just a webifier. The funny thing is the split second I was able to activate my abs just after warp is when they got me.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.12.08 20:58:00 - [127] Cloaking really needs a visual representation for the pilot of the cloaked vessel. Navigation is pretty wacky without one since the camera drone never really assumes a chase position. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
RoToraTTack	Posted - 2003.12.08 22:49:00 - [128] Quote: Cloaking really needs a visual representation for the pilot of the cloaked vessel. Navigation is pretty wacky without one since the camera drone never really assumes a chase position. Very much agreed -
Demonus	Posted - 2003.12.13 18:24:00 - [129] I logged on chaos server today but couldn¦t find a cloaking device. So where can i get one?
MrGold	Posted - 2003.12.16 16:28:00 - [130] What would be cool is a 'Predator' style cloaked graphic effect, just so you know where your ship is.



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