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Redundancy
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Posted - 2003.10.13 18:00:00 -
[1]
Since the 'edit members' feature is fixed (but apparently very laggy) in 1259, we can finally make the corp hangars of the reinvigorated (post TQ-mirror) FCC available to everyone. With this comes the belated announcement that cloaking devices are available for testing (you'll find them in the 'new items' hangar when you have access).
There's already an unofficial thread on the cloaking devices here. However, there's a lot of confusion, assumption, questions and so on in that thread, so I feel it would be better to keep that one as it is, and restrict this thread to feedback on the new items from testing experience.
Redundancy |
DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2003.10.13 20:09:00 -
[2]
Very interested, came on soley for trying cloaking out.
Skill now requires electronics lvl 5, which is logical but dissapointing in the sense that many cant test it for a looong time
perhaps a temporary change is in order?
then you can always get the devs to set it back to lvl 5 when it goes live. _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf |
Quiz
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Posted - 2003.10.14 07:31:00 -
[3]
Also, not just bughunters can accept players to fight club and give them hangar access. Any player can. An application goes through the player applies -> gets offer back -> accepts steps. This is how to do it.
Applying to fight club First, player who wishes to join fight club has to go to the system named PF-346 and dock at the station located at planet 1. If the player is a long way from that system, he can join the channel named eve-chaos within the game. If there is a bughunter there (name starting with BH) he can transport you to PF-346 if he is active and not sleeping. :) Just ask. When you are docked at the station, apply to fight club. You will get a offer back when another player decides to have a look at your application. Just ask people to do it in the eve-chaos channel.
Getting accepted to fight club Any player on chaos can offer you to join fight club once you have sent a application. Asking someone to do it in the eve-chaos channel is a good way to get accepted fast, providing people feel helpful and are docked. To offer someone to fight club, click the Corp button on the left buttonbar and sort the applications on player names. Right click on the name of the player who wishes to join and click OK in the next dialog box. Player will now get a offer back and will have to accept it.
Accepting a offer to fight club Click corp button, click view on the offer and then OK in the next dialog box. You now are a member of fight club.
Getting hangar access Some player already in fight club has to click corp button, then the member tab, find you in the list and right click you. He will get a dialog box with the roles you can have in the corporation. Basicly, he should check every box he can find so you have full access to everything.
Thats it. A lot of text for something very simple really. Maybe I should have drawn a pic, but I suck at drawing. :P
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.10.14 08:11:00 -
[4]
eh elec lvl5 kind of sucks... would be better if it was a mix of a few skills maybe of lvl4?
btw does cloaking really have anything to do with your cap being -90%??? i mean why? sheilds and hmm speed kind of make sense but cap???
is that peace of high tech that much eating cap that it must use up 90% of your cap? just to do some tricks? i mean even warp core isnt that insane support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Bjorn Nilfheim
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Posted - 2003.10.14 10:51:00 -
[5]
personally, i think that cloaking should be even higher level, on the order of jumpdrives, which require 3 level 5s to use. though i was a little upset when i undocked the day they changed the skill, and was no longer able to watch my ship cloak.
It does seem to carry some high penalties, especially in light of the new changes to cap/shield overcharge draining method. As soon as i finish electronics level 5, ill look into it again.
Admiral of the Forsaken Fleets Pillar of the Fallen Emperor |
Johnson McCrae
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Posted - 2003.10.14 15:07:00 -
[6]
The cap hit indicates how much POWER it takes to make a ship invisible. So it makes a LOT of sense. It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya!
[ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
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darkk
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Posted - 2003.10.14 15:10:00 -
[7]
hi, here a few infos about the cloaking device
Penaltys:
(only when cloaking is active)
- -100% shield - -100% cap - -90% speed - no module activation while cloaked - no warping while cloaked
Skill Reqs:
- electronic lvl 5 - cloaking lvl 1 (20% more speed while cloaked per level)
Decloaking cloaked players:
- use scanner, when u fly within 1.5 km the cloaked ship will decloak
Prevent players to cloak:
- simple lock - stay within 1.5 km
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Singular
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Posted - 2003.10.14 17:23:00 -
[8]
omg pirates are gonna love this. I know I am =)
Im Yo Huckleberreh |
Siolan
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Posted - 2003.10.14 21:50:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Siolan on 14/10/2003 21:51:22 The de-cloak proximity may vary with ships of certain signature radius. In a Merlin, I de-cloaked at 1km, not 1.5km...
Kind of sad they upped the skill req's, but I think it's good that it's a higher level skill, though maybe level 4 would be better, 5 does take a while.
Depends on how expensive or rare the modules are. Maybe how rare they are corresponds to the skills they take?
Personally, I'd like to see it a medium skill,and medium rarity, so it could be used as a tactic by more than a select few. But then again, despite it's drawbacks, it's a very powerful weapon, so maybe it should be very high in price and requirements...
Besides... the effect is really, really cool :)
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.10.15 06:06:00 -
[10]
if it doesnt make you invis in local then its stupid... it will still show on the map that large fleet is coming and or players are moving in... etc...
i sure hope they make it that you get removed from local, you should also not see in local as you are not there unless your ship scanners and stuff work and you can still some how tell who is in the system without giving away that you are there... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
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Drachir
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Posted - 2003.10.15 06:52:00 -
[11]
From playing around with thse for a while it seems the cloaking is pretty much instant.
I feel cloaking would become a must have module. If someone warps into a belt while you're mining with the intention of killing you, you can simple cloak before the other person can get a lock.
Imo there needs to be a delay equal (or greater) to that of the jump in delay for being able to acquire a lock.
my 2p
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Volrath
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Posted - 2003.10.15 07:51:00 -
[12]
Im actually disappointed at what cloaking means in eve right now, i was hoping for something that would make battles more tactical. Something that would make it possible to sneak a whole fleet through someone's space if he or she wasnt specifically watching out for cloaked ships (aka make you disappear in local as well).
Cloaking as it is now doesnt add very much to the game, the only purpose i can see for it is more running away from combat (especially for indies). I would have hoped to see something that would make it possible to sneak up on someone (for instance, pirates camping a gate), decloak, and blast them to hell.
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Toulak
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Posted - 2003.10.16 11:48:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Toulak on 16/10/2003 11:49:06 Why would you need to remove people from local, you jump into the sector, your visible on local. You then warp to a location, the whole time your visible on local..
You get to the location they still see you warp in, you then cloak, then disappear from local.. I think it'd be kinda obvious your there
Unless you were able to cloak and warp, are you able to do such with it?
I need to get my butt on Chaos and test this really.
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Volrath
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Posted - 2003.10.16 17:46:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Volrath on 16/10/2003 17:47:17 I was hoping to warp while cloaked... Then we would really see some tactical combat, but even sitting at a well known pirate infested stargate with a whole cloaked fleet and taking the pirates out as they come in would have been fun. Now that you are visible on local, the cloaking device doesnt really add anything to PvP combat i.m.o., because the penalties are too severe to use it.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.16 18:55:00 -
[15]
Given the preliminary reports of the cloaking device's fitting and skill requirements, I'd say this initial model should not have the ability to warp while cloaked.
It leaves nothing for anyone to upgrade to in the future (better versions simply not costing as much). And everyone will fly around cloaked as much as possible, creating another MWD situation. Where a module meant for tactical purposes got turned into a 'Must have' travel device.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Faramir
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Posted - 2003.10.16 21:04:00 -
[16]
For the moment 2 comments: -Turrets do not cloak with the ship till the very last moment... the whole ship "flickers" while cloaking, the turrets are unaffected.. maybe a small thing, but it would be nicer if the "flickered" aswell.
-warping right after uncloaking. this will be very very annoying!! Many will uncloak and immediately warp away. This will have ppl end up "mid-space" and untracable. VERY bad for PvP. This way everyone can get away since it is near impossible to get to someone mid-space!
Plz take note!
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Zeus
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Posted - 2003.10.17 00:16:00 -
[17]
I've given the current cloaking device set up some serious thought and testing and I’ve basically concluded in its current state it holds no useful application other than eye candy.
Lets start a basic run down of Pro's Vs Cons:
Pro's -People can’t see you on screen, you are completely invisible to the main view in space. -People can’t target you while you are cloaked.
Con's -In using the device you strip all your shields. -You Loss all but 10% of your cap. -You are reduced to a fraction of your starting speed (Though this is a trainable attribute) -You loss the ability to activate modules. -You loss the ability to target. -You loss the ability to warp. -People can still see you on scanner. -There is a short period while uncloaking where you are vulnerable and cannot target. -You need to use a high slot. -You cannot cloak when you are target or being targeted or within 1500m from anything e.g. station or player/npc.
Well, anyone can see the Pro's list is far shorter than the Con's list but for the benefit of the doubt I did some testing.
The cap drain renders laser and hybrid weapons useless, so it’s not even worth mounting them. In my tests I used missiles and in this scenario I waited around a station for a quarry to appear, in this case he was not looking for me on purpose. Uncloaking at my desired distance but he achieved target lock first firing at me a few times before I could start launching my missiles (This was cruiser combat) seeing me he immediately started heading towards me firing, to get into his optimal. Obviously I'm starting of with a disadvantage since I have no shields and am already into armour were he has shields and a booster. Using ECM modules in order to hide I have to break his lock. Now depending on the circumstances and what your using doing this negates the purpose for me cloaking since I wouldn’t really need to hide but none the less in order to use the cloaking device I have to be in a winning position. So he gets to close I hide and put distance between us and start again, by then his shields are back up. He has sustained a little damage were I am about 45% armour left. The result is clear, I am in no better position in using the cloaking device than without it. In fact I am at a disadvantage for using it because I have no shields.
The 2nd scenario came as abit of a shock, I asked my quarry to try and find me using the scanner and this point I was talking about the other scanner at the bottom left next to auto pilot. But he actually used the bottom right scanner and found me instantly setting me to approach now I am unable to run AND HIDE this means if a person knows I am there he can find me so easily and I can do nothing not even run while he brings me into range or comes to park his ship within 1500m of me.
Now I ask you what is the point of cloaking under these conditions? Using it makes you clearly the underdog and your not even hidden from your enemy!
Suggestions
There needs to be a price to cloaking, and I believe the speed shield loss is acceptable. The Cap is abit severe though I think it should be reduced or given the ability to reduce it with skill. But the current module and targeting restrictions are making the cloaking device useless. Its true you can’t be allowed to fire or perform actions on a target while cloaked at this moment in time. Perhaps later you can with some kind of advanced thing or ship but not now same goes for warping while cloaked. But in order for cloaking to work you must be able to target a enemy to have some kind of advantage for using the cloak and be able reduce that cap drain otherwise the device will not get used and will be another useless item like the energy vampires currently. Another thing needs to be the scanner, the cloak needs to hide people from the scanner since its enough people will be able to see you cloaking you cant expect them to be able to then see you moving on the scanner? What’s the point! But the possibility for some kind of future cloak hunting skills or devices are welcome :)
Heres to hoping this will get read and taken on board
Zeus Signing off
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Zeus
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Posted - 2003.10.17 00:30:00 -
[18]
I forgot to add this is the time when passive targeting modules become useful since they have always been useless before, same for ship scanners etc. Half the use of the cloaking device is to spy on people after all with them not even knowing it. The Other half is surprise attacks.
Now I’m really signing off
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xeno calligan
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Posted - 2003.10.17 01:23:00 -
[19]
As the situation is now, the ship classes does not truely carve out specific roles for the ships -- in particular, a cruiser is very much a discount battleship with slightly more speed and agility, but not enough to make much difference (except BB atm). The introduction of cloaking devices can change that by allowing cloaking only on frigates and cruisers.
The cloaking skill should allow the pilot to cloak a lvl 1 frigate only. By training a "cloaking amplification" skill, larger ships can be cloaked (either by directly restricting the ship classes or some other parameter like signature radius). By skill lvl:
- Up to lvl 2 frigates
- Up to lvl 3 frigates
- Up to lvl 1 cruisers
- Up to lvl 2 cruisers
- Up to lvl 3 cruisers
This will ensure:- No cloaking industrials that can hide from any danger.
- No cloaking battle ships; It would put a lid on heavy fleets that can decloak and wipe out everything in sight.
- There would be a purpose to flying other war ships than battleships, other than to save isk.
- By making the "cloaking amplification" skill rank 3-5, there would be a much better distribution of pilots on different ship classes; A cloaking lvl 3 cruiser would be extremely expensive (in skill points), but not impossible, to train for. Thus pilots that don't specialize heavily in cloaking would be forced to fly some of the hardly-ever-used lvl 1 and lvl 2 cruisers.
Provided that cloaking actually is useful also as an offensive strategy, a restriction to cruisers and frigates would make ship selection more interesting, rather than the prevailing get-the-largest-ship-with-the-largest-guns mentality.
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2003.10.17 07:49:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 17/10/2003 07:50:08
Quote: There would be a purpose to flying other war ships than battleships, other than to save isk.
So f**king true.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
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Klydor
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Posted - 2003.10.17 10:13:00 -
[21]
I'm heading onto chaos to test this out later. However if the above is true I see little point in cloaking.
Imagine the scenario: 6 pirates always camp a jump in location in system T16. Knowing this the local alliance sends a fleet of 16 battleships to wait at the gate and 13 of them cloak.
The pirates jump in as anticipated. Look at local and see 16 players. USing there long scanners they determine all 16 players are at the same stargate. They warp away and jump to another system.
In this scenario what has cloaking got you? You may as well have sat in at the gate uncloaked and avoided all the disadvantages.
I always thought cloaking would allow a ship to sit their without warping etc etc but able to passivly lock and scan all the enemy ships, relay that info back to the main fleet so that they can decide tactics and load outs to give them a much larger advantage.
However I have to admin all the above is based on other peoples feedback.. I'm going on chaos later just to see if its true or not. If it is I doubt I'll bother with cloaking devices, you won't be suprising players and you'll be 1/2 dead before you start to attack.
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Indigo Seqi
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Posted - 2003.10.17 15:41:00 -
[22]
My thoughts on this.
- You can remain cloaked pretty much forever, so any cap penalty is well justified by that imo. - Battleships are too big to be cloaked by this new, but still relatively primitive module. - You should disappear from local. If cloaking goes live and you're still visible in local, people will spot you in the system and be ten times as careful as they were before, because they know you could be cloaked somewhere. This only gets worse if the person sees multiple members of a hostile corp, to the point of him just logging off because the risk is too big.
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Ian Wagner
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Posted - 2003.10.17 15:54:00 -
[23]
Obviously, cloaking is still a "work in progress". Speed reduction + still showing up on long range scanners means any frigate or cruiser designated for EW could just click "approach" and drop your cloak, leaving you with no cap or shield, and ship(s) locking onto you.
Hoped cloaking would allow those who did not wish to do PvP a way to avoid it, while adding a recon element to those that did. It apparently has a way to go yet...
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McWatt
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Posted - 2003.10.17 20:01:00 -
[24]
this game needs strategical cloaking (invisibility on map/local). and it needs it well done (well balanced)
nobody cares about seeing a ship or not.
this is a waste of time.
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Doc Brown
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Posted - 2003.10.17 21:00:00 -
[25]
Before everybody get's too huffy about the advantages/dis-advantes of cloaking, remeber that CCP wants to start small with it.
They can always add features to the cloaking devices later (i.e.: anti-nerfs). _________________________________________________
There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
Zeus
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Posted - 2003.10.17 21:37:00 -
[26]
There is still no point in adding a item that is utterly useless by the off chance it will become better later
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Doc Brown
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Posted - 2003.10.17 21:43:00 -
[27]
Quote: There is still no point in adding a item that is utterly useless by the off chance it will become better later
Value is in the eye of the beholder. _________________________________________________
There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
Drutort
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Posted - 2003.10.17 22:12:00 -
[28]
for cloaking to be used by anyone... the cloaked ship and char should not show up in local/scanner's the cloaked ship should be able to use a passive targeter to lock on.. or else there is really no advantage...
WHY does it matter about SHIP size??? the ships all have proportional cap and other items... so if there is any kind of issue, it is all fair in the % for all ships as it takes the % of whatever you have.
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Astaroth
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Posted - 2003.10.17 23:29:00 -
[29]
hmm one way of using current cloaking would be for a solo bb to stay in cloak until he spots an easy target and just let all the others pass, also warping to a spot just outside the grid barrier of a stargate and approaching it then in cloak.
and yes scanner should not be able to locate a cloaked ship, and it would be nice to be able to use ship scanner while in cloak.
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xeno calligan
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Posted - 2003.10.18 09:33:00 -
[30]
Edited by: xeno calligan on 18/10/2003 09:35:32 Slightly OT; Many problems arrise from the numerous methods by which players can be detected even though they are out of the maximal targeting range of the ship:
- They get listed on local
- They pop up in threats
- Can be detected by the built-in scanner
- They are clearly marked with crosshairs, alerting even most zombie players
- They can be detected on the map, using color by number of pilots in space
As I see it, players should only be detectable if the ship has the capability -- i.e. they are within locking range and uncloaked. No clues should be provided until then. As for the #local channel, I think it would acceptable to let it cover the current constellation instead of the system.
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