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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Defier Orilis
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
71
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Posted - 2014.12.02 16:37:04 -
[31] - Quote
How do you say "AMEN" in Jovian?
Cuz, I have the feeling I am going to die a lot more when the sleepers arrive... |
Tahnil
Sirius Fleet AXIOS.
52
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Posted - 2014.12.02 16:43:39 -
[32] - Quote
This is a very good change!
Helison wrote:While I agree that the process of upgrading clones was not the best experience, I dislike how much the death penalty is reduced with this change. Now it will be better in most cases to just self-destruct the pod after losing a ship than trying to get the pod safe. Please do not continue this path of making EVE easier and easier!
It depends! If your clone has expensive implants or if your medical clone is GÇô-áfor some reason GÇô-áfar away from your staging system / reshipping point, you still want to save your pod! |
Medalyn Isis
Aliastra Gallente Federation
449
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Posted - 2014.12.02 16:52:21 -
[33] - Quote
I am not sure if CCP have considered this, but how will this effect the current importance of medical facilities?
As of now, medical facilities are of vital strategic importance, as if your reanimate in a station without medical facilities, then you cannot upgrade your clone and basically cannot pvp unless you risk losing SP.
For this reason most people try and base their corporation at a location with a medical facility, and there is real meaning to death as if you are defending an area with no medical facility then when you are podded you end up out the fight. Many corporations have based themselves around stations with vital medical facilities for these reasons.
Are there any plans now to keep the importance of medical facilities? As of now they have no purpose with this change, and a massive blow has been struck to the strategic planning of many corporations. |
Eyrun Mangeiri
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
29
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Posted - 2014.12.02 16:55:28 -
[34] - Quote
Helison wrote:While I agree that the process of upgrading clones was not the best experience, I dislike how much the death penalty is reduced with this change. Now it will be better in most cases to just self-destruct the pod after losing a ship than trying to get the pod safe. Please do not continue this path of making EVE easier and easier!
And this is different from now because of what? It's not like anyone is getting poor because he is buying clone upgrades o_o
I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn they will be gone - whispering their hidden song.
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Vartan Sarkisian
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
163
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Posted - 2014.12.02 16:55:40 -
[35] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:You know what's funny? I've made this exact same argument to Greyscale et al about skillpoints: Quote:Skill point acquisition is very much tied to your subscription and the real money you spent on the game, so taking some of their skill points away can feel like wasted money to the player. You know whats worse? When that logical argument is ignored by the devs every time they change a skill. One of the biggest changes I can remember is the change to the ME % in industry recently. Players complained and complained about losing something valuable and replacing it with something worthless. And you know what? You guys didn't have a single GOOD argument for why you shouldn't have refunded everyone's SP. In my opinion every time a skill is changed regardless of how trivial or major, you should refund the SP of that skill. Period. No questions asked. SP is simply too intertwined with the subscription costs to treat changes to them so nonchalantly. Your point did not go undebated in the office.
Debated and yet ultimately ignored it would seem.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
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Draahk Chimera
0ne Percent. Odin's Call
41
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Posted - 2014.12.02 16:56:14 -
[36] - Quote
I do not like this change one bit, and few of your (CCP) arguments are valid.
Quote:A choice between a bad option of losing ISK, and a worse option of losing skillpoints.
You can say that about almost everything in EVE. You can make a poor choice by paying ISK for a hurricane, or a worse one by flying an ibis.
Quote:Small lapses of forgetfulness will no longer cause players to retrain weeks of lost skillpoint time.
Will you also replace the ships of pilots who "forgot" it was a bad idea to jump wormholes without a scout?
Quote:In addition, veteran players will have more reasons to undock in cheaper ships
No they wont. I am a 2005 character and I pvp in frigs and t1 cruisers all the time. The reason being that I do not have high grade slave implants. Many of my friends are also that age or even older and they too pvp in small ships regular. Those 04-05 toons who do not undock unless in a pirate bs or a capital will not start doing so just because they do not have to pay for a clone. It is the pirate implants that is the big cost you see.
Quote:Forgetting to upgrade the clone and losing skill points because of that is a terrible experience for new players
This is your (CCP) only valid argument and could be fixed by a warning box for players younger then, say, 3 months rather then taking away one huge risk vs. reward (also known as Darwinism) from EVE.
404 - Image not found
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EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
378
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Posted - 2014.12.02 16:59:36 -
[37] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:I am not sure if CCP have considered this, but how will this effect the current importance of medical facilities?
As of now, medical facilities are of vital strategic importance, as if your reanimate in a station without medical facilities, then you cannot upgrade your clone and basically cannot pvp unless you risk losing SP.
For this reason most people try and base their corporation at a location with a medical facility, and there is real meaning to death as if you are defending an area with no medical facility then when you are podded you end up out the fight. Many corporations have based themselves around stations with vital medical facilities for these reasons.
Are there any plans now to keep the importance of medical facilities? As of now they have no purpose with this change, and a massive blow has been struck to the strategic planning of many corporations. You can't set your clone to a non-medical station anymore with the abolition of podjumping. |
C DeLeon
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
307
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:01:27 -
[38] - Quote
It would be awesome if we would be able to manufacture clones with specialized bonuses (like bonus on scanning skills, command ship bonuses, ceptor bonuses, mining bonuses etc etc), being able to put implants in all of them and swap between the clones any time as long as the clone is at the same station as where we are. We should be able to haul around clones in the ships cargo hold. Death and clones would be tied to the economy and there would a real choice around the whole death is punishing and risk vs reward idea (better clones would cost more).
Also I don't like the current implant system. If we use some implants for a specific activity, we pretty much stuck with it for the next 24 hours until we can swap jump clones. I see it as the same problem as not going out and taking risks in small scale pvp because of high clone costs. It would solve this too.
(And we should be able to salvage some of the implants out of the corpses. Just imagine it! Collecting corpses as a new profession in eve) |
Medalyn Isis
Aliastra Gallente Federation
449
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:02:21 -
[39] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:I am not sure if CCP have considered this, but how will this effect the current importance of medical facilities?
As of now, medical facilities are of vital strategic importance, as if your reanimate in a station without medical facilities, then you cannot upgrade your clone and basically cannot pvp unless you risk losing SP.
For this reason most people try and base their corporation at a location with a medical facility, and there is real meaning to death as if you are defending an area with no medical facility then when you are podded you end up out the fight. Many corporations have based themselves around stations with vital medical facilities for these reasons.
Are there any plans now to keep the importance of medical facilities? As of now they have no purpose with this change, and a massive blow has been struck to the strategic planning of many corporations. You can't set your clone to a non-medical station anymore with the abolition of podjumping. Incorrect I believe. You can still set your clone location to your corporation office, which doesn't have to have a medical facility. |
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CCP Terminus
C C P C C P Alliance
22
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:02:42 -
[40] - Quote
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:Will you refund the isk for the clones we are sitting in now?
There will be no refunds relating to the removal of the upgrade mechanic.
It is both impractical (determining when a person last bought their clone and for what price seeing as factional warfare and previous balancing has changed prices) and undesirable from our view to do so. |
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EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
378
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:05:13 -
[41] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote: Incorrect I believe. You can still set your clone location to your corporation office, which doesn't have to have a medical facility.
You can do this once a year. Then you can't change it for the entire year without being locked out. Any corp that is getting podded enough to care where their clone is won't find that loophole all that useful given the downside. |
Valterra Craven
390
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:06:34 -
[42] - Quote
Harvey James wrote: i hope the against side won comfortably, you know when you train something it could be liable too change you just hope for the better, you can't insure against everything, eve is a game of risk
Except insurance actually exists in this game...
That aside, what logical reason are arguing against skill point resets on changes?
Every time Turbine made a change to how Legendary Items worked in Lord of the Rings Online, all of the points spent on legacies were reset. Every. single. time. They practically made changes to LI's every patch.
If something changes players should have the option of choosing to invest those SP into something else. Keep in mind I'm not arguing the extreme that SP should be refunded on balance changes like if they change the OP ship of the month like the ISHTAR and nerfed it. What I am saying is that when the skill changes roles like the Material Efficiency skill did, that the SP should have been refunded. |
Valterra Craven
390
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:08:50 -
[43] - Quote
Kolb wrote:
Didn't Greyscale or someone say they didn't want to redeem the points because it trivialized the efforts in training the skills up?
I seem to remember an argument along those lines, or something similar. I just find it incredibly hypocritical to not make the change to SP then, but make the clone change now using reasoning that works for both of the changes. |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
334
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:09:19 -
[44] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:With the Rhea release on December 9 we will see changes to clones and what is happening with you skillpoints when you get pod killed. The most important changes are: - Removal of all clone grades
- No general loss of skillpoints upon death (special cases, like T3 cruiser aside)
- Setting your home station will cost 100,000 ISK instead of 5400 ISK.
Read more about these changes, why they are introduced and what other development we can expect regarding clones and death in CCP Terminus' latest dev blog A new Era of Clones.
So death just became a little less painful and cold hard eve universe a lot more friendly and fluffy
I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
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Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
81
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:09:53 -
[45] - Quote
Granted, some will take my following statement and simply say "that was your choice!"
On the other hand:
I have been playing for 10 years, and my subscription has been active for 9.5 of those. I love this game, enough to call it a hobby and to base life choices on it! I have a record of almost every single pod death I've suffered, (or at least those since the game started tracking it). I'm able to play maybe 5 hours a week, and when i do I participate with the group im with. If its mining or anoms or PvP, I join right in. Its taken me thise 10 years to accrue the 2B in assets and 500M in liquid ISK on this character. When (not if) i get podded it hurts, as each of thise pods cost 30M+ ISK each.
So, my real question: can we get a refund of the ISK invested in a soon-to-be useless mechanic? Playing the game would take me, personally, 8 weeks or so to make back that ISK. Im willing and able to do it, but I'd much rather be making content for other players, rather than ratting.
Thanks for the consideration
Cedric
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Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
334
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:12:01 -
[46] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:Will you refund the isk for the clones we are sitting in now? There will be no refunds relating to the removal of the upgrade mechanic. It is both impractical (determining when a person last bought their clone and for what price seeing as factional warfare and previous balancing has changed prices) and undesirable from our view to do so.
Isnt the current system an isk sink? What are you going to do to replace it and prevent isk inflation?
I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
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Medalyn Isis
Aliastra Gallente Federation
449
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:13:10 -
[47] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: Incorrect I believe. You can still set your clone location to your corporation office, which doesn't have to have a medical facility.
You can do this once a year. Then you can't change it for the entire year without being locked out. Any corp that is getting podded enough to care where their clone is won't find that loophole all that useful given the downside. I'm not sure how you don't see this, but this is incredibly useful, and in fact game changing for a corporation who lives in NPC null for instance where medical facilities are sparse. Now I can setup a corporation office at any location without having to worry about medical facilities, it literally planes the whole geography of a region such as Stain as certain areas where no go beforehand.
I get the one year cooldown drawback, but that will have little effect in reality as most corporations and pilots who operate in the area where I am stick to one location anyway, so they will simply set their clone at the new facility and then leave it there for good. |
Serenit Adoulin
Animus Supra Corpus Most Usual Suspects
18
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:19:34 -
[48] - Quote
Well i think thats a solid change :D I acutally saw people skill themself a entiere new character after their high skillled capital and whatnot else toon, so they could just get back in a HAC and go for PVP without risking a 200m+ pod. (Without any implants) That was before the clone grades got cheaper. After all those who would be really good in flying t1 frigates often don't do it because of too high SP on the toon. Great job CCP. Looking forward to take revenge on supercap pilots in a frig 1v1 :D |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
107
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:22:44 -
[49] - Quote
Inb4 pod fatigue. You die, you're skills are temporarily diminished.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
5690
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:24:22 -
[50] - Quote
One of the best changes yet!
The Paradox
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Aliventi
Hard Knocks Inc.
780
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:30:43 -
[51] - Quote
First: Awesome. This is a fantastic change that has been a long time coming. Great job getting this done.
Second, I honestly hope you all will continue this trend and look at attributes, attribute implants, and remaps. So much of the logic you just gave against clone grades applies to attributes. I'll highlight a few:
- New players can be badly surprised by this system since they have so many other important things to learn.
The attribute and remap system is difficult for a new player to understand. I cannot tell you how many times I have see new players waste all their remaps without having a clue as to what they should have done. I have heard everything from just plain clueless all the way to RPG players who who though Charisma would help them talk to NPCs.
- Forgetting to upgrade the clone and losing skill points because of that is a terrible experience for new players.
Not knowing or being able to afford implants is an SP loss compared to what you could have had. Same with remaps.
- Skill point acquisition is very much tied to your subscription and the real money you spent on the game, so taking some of their skill points away can feel like wasted money to the player.
If only you didn't have to pay ~500 mil for +5 implants to train perfectly on top of what you already paid just to play the game to get perfect sp/hour.
- In addition, veteran players will have more reasons to undock in cheaper ships, furthering our goal of increased interactivity within the game, since the cost of the higher clone grades could be orders of magnitude more than the cost of a PvP ship hull. We expect more risks to be taken more often by veterans because of this change.
+5 implants make veterans not want to undock and put those implants at risk. Even +3 implants make new players not want to do anything dangerous and put those implants at risk.
- Small lapses of forgetfulness will no longer cause players to retrain weeks of lost skillpoint time. This too should encourage veterans to fly even more boldly into battle without worrying about protecting valuable skills.
If your goal is to "Encourage veterans to fly even more boldly into battle with worrying about protecting X" then attribute implants need to die in a fire.
Oh and my favorite:
- We want every choice you make as a player to impact the world around you. From the rookie ship mining Veldspar to calling targets in the largest Alliance battles, your actions in the game should have meaning and affect other players either directly or indirectly.
Attribute, attribute implants, and remaps IN NO WAY are a choice that a player makes that impacts the world around them. They DO NOT affect other players directly or indirectly.
And add in:
- The same cannot be said for the current clone death mechanics. They are not a real choice, they are an illusion of choice. A choice between a bad option of losing ISK, and a worse option of losing skillpoints. A choice which does not affect the EVE universe as a whole, other than to empty players accounts of ISK and discourage the same interactions we want to foster.
Attributes have this one nailed. The illusion of choice is that you had a choice more beneficial than optimal remaps and the best implants you can afford. You lose isk buying implants or you lose SP for not having them. Attributes do not affect the Eve universe as a whole. Attribute implants empty players wallets of isk and discourage the interactions you want to foster.
For the love of New Even: GET RID OF ATTRIBUTES. Attributes, attribute implants, and remaps do far more harm than good. A simple everyone trains at 2700 sp/hour is a far better system. |
Gaia Ma'chello
V.I.C.E.
115
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:30:59 -
[52] - Quote
Grammar police alert!
"what is happening with you skillpoints when you get pod killed. "
Should be: "with your skill points"
Beyond that, I like not having to worry about med clones. It was just an annoyance, and a dis-enabler. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent
893
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:32:42 -
[53] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Confirming I've never lost JDCV at least twice.
Lost Wing Commander 5 here. Looks strange having FC 4 and WC 4. Still haven't retrained it.
As for what clone death may bring in the future, I am looking forward to scavenging implants and reprocessing biomass for a new clone industry.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Alty McAltypants
Eretz Israel
3
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:33:35 -
[54] - Quote
Overall, its a good change. It has removed that niggle that we would all get about when shipping up and weighing up the cost (or time to recoup the cost) of losing a clone. The 'cold hard eve' isn't dead, you can still plug in a bil + of implants or fit faction modules
CCP Terminus wrote:These medical clone changes are just the beginning of a larger project revolving around clones and their purpose in EVE. While we are still in the early stages of design, the Rhea changes are our first step towards the future possibilities of clones. We will maintain the meaningful nature of death and we are going to give you ways to interact with that death which will affect the whole EVE universe.
So far in this thread ideas on: 1) Growing clones to sell to players
2) Growing clones with specific enhanced abilities
To add
3) Clones for espionage...from a corpse, clone another pod pilot (set a pretty low time period on their shelf life like 15 mins or something). You could house them in a clove vat, break them out and infiltrate an enemy stronghold before you become gue!
4) Pod cannon, fire capsuleer pods around for no apparent point/reason.
5) Corpse cannon, see 4) but with corpses
6) Corpse implant salvaging (an idea that's pretty old but nonetheless)...
7) Corpse collection - gotta catch me all
... I will stop now
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Medalyn Isis
Aliastra Gallente Federation
451
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:36:19 -
[55] - Quote
Judging from some of the posts by players in this thread, I believe there are many other games which would be better suited to themselves other than eve.
What I am basically reading is people basically want to remove all consequences from the game.
Leave eve as one of the few niche game where consequences matter, there are plenty of other games for people who don't like consequences. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1182
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:40:31 -
[56] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Judging from some of the posts by players in this thread, I believe there are many other games which would be better suited to themselves other than eve.
What I am basically reading is people basically want to remove all consequences from the game.
Leave eve as one of the few niche game where consequences matter, there are plenty of other games for people who don't like consequences. You are overreacting. Death still has plenty of consequence. In fact, it retains ALL the consequence it used to have GÇö-áthe current system doesn't actually introduce any consequence. The current system just means you have to remember to do a little bit of busywork every time you die. There's not a meaningful choice or any sort of skill involved in remembering to update your clone. Removing the mechanic is unabashedly positive.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Medalyn Isis
Aliastra Gallente Federation
451
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:42:19 -
[57] - Quote
Querns wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Judging from some of the posts by players in this thread, I believe there are many other games which would be better suited to themselves other than eve.
What I am basically reading is people basically want to remove all consequences from the game.
Leave eve as one of the few niche game where consequences matter, there are plenty of other games for people who don't like consequences. You are overreacting. Death still has plenty of consequence. In fact, it retains ALL the consequence it used to have GÇö-áthe current system doesn't actually introduce any consequence. The current system just means you have to remember to do a little bit of busywork every time you die. There's not a meaningful choice or any sort of skill involved in remembering to update your clone. Removing the mechanic is unabashedly positive.
Quintessen wrote:Good change overall. Now I'd like to see other penalties removed that prevent people from playing the game itself. I'm thinking standings penalties for missions for factions you care about. I'm thinking about standings loss from faction warfare. So Querns, you agree with stuff like this?
I'm not talking about the removal of clones, but some of the other suggestions which players are coming up with in this thread. |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
291
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:45:11 -
[58] - Quote
I chose EVE because it had harsh consequences for mistakes, the possibility to lose skill points being the most important of these. Yes, losing a level V skill is indeed a negative experience (I've trained Astrometric Rangefinding V twice, herp derp), but the existence of such brutalities create the necessary contrast to positive experiences.
Without butthurt, there can be no joy either. This is the yin and yang of everything, and games aren't exceptions.
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Barrett Fruitcake
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:45:19 -
[59] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:Will you refund the isk for the clones we are sitting in now? There will be no refunds relating to the removal of the upgrade mechanic. It is both impractical (determining when a person last bought their clone and for what price seeing as factional warfare and previous balancing has changed prices) and undesirable from our view to do so. Isnt the current system an isk sink? What are you going to do to replace it and prevent isk inflation?
More pvp |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1182
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:45:28 -
[60] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Querns wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Judging from some of the posts by players in this thread, I believe there are many other games which would be better suited to themselves other than eve.
What I am basically reading is people basically want to remove all consequences from the game.
Leave eve as one of the few niche game where consequences matter, there are plenty of other games for people who don't like consequences. You are overreacting. Death still has plenty of consequence. In fact, it retains ALL the consequence it used to have GÇö-áthe current system doesn't actually introduce any consequence. The current system just means you have to remember to do a little bit of busywork every time you die. There's not a meaningful choice or any sort of skill involved in remembering to update your clone. Removing the mechanic is unabashedly positive. Quintessen wrote:Good change overall. Now I'd like to see other penalties removed that prevent people from playing the game itself. I'm thinking standings penalties for missions for factions you care about. I'm thinking about standings loss from faction warfare. So Querns, you agree with stuff like this? I'm not talking about the removal of clones, but some of the other suggestions which players are coming up with in this thread. I don't agree that what you're quoting there is even remotely relevant to this discussion. There is no slippery slope here GÇö-áI'd ask that you refrain from trying to introduce one.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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