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Myths and Questions of Eve PvP.

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:45:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 19:48:26 Question: If someone wardecs my empire bound corp and we are smaller and less experienced than them, can we do anything? Yes and no. The right training of your players will put you in the position to be able to fight back against the war dec. However, empire wars tend to boil down to dock wars. The aggression timer is only a paltry 30 seconds so that bs can snipe your hauler and then dock before you can kill him. Killing a well tanked BS in under 30 seconds is EXTREMELY hard and takes a massive amount of force -- an amount of force you are unlikely to have if you are being griefer wardeced. Corps like Contraband have that kind of force but then people rarely try to "griefer war dec" Contraband. Your best bet is to make insta-undock bookmarks that allow you to get just about anything out of station, avoid deathtrap stations that hang you up on the structure when undocking and generally let the enemy die of boredom. Remember war is psychological. If you get the chance to catch one of them with a frig pack while they are out of dock range all the better. Getting your shiny T2 fitted BS blown up by a dozen frigs is a great psychological weapon. Question: How do I protect myself from pirates while mining? The best answer is to go with friends and have those friends be well trained. Pirates having a hard time with people in an area will generally seek easier prey elsewhere after a while. Question: How is it that pirates attack multiple ships while solo and come out on top? Are they just really good or something? Not really. Pirates cultivate an image of evil and fear and this is their major weapon. When a pirate warps into a belt of 10 ratting ships, he is generally counting on most of them running from his bright red flashing line in the overview. Flashing red is a primordial signal of danger and triggers flight reflexes in many people. The skull reinforces this for a bountied player. If those players in a belt had actually all ganged the pirate, he probably would have lost. Change your pirates to flash another color such as green and watch how that changes your fear response. Pirates compound this psychological weapon by being nasty and agressive in local, this leads to feelings of inferiority and rage and many people attack them in a "holy war" of rage. A pirate encountered by a competent gang commander who stays calm and ignores local will be a dead pirate. Question: I got into PvP last weekend and I was shaking so bad I could barely do anything. This never happens to me in Counterstrike or similar games so why does this happen here? In Eve you have something to lose in PvP and this is what makes PvP in Eve great. You experinced an extreme form of "the rush" that all pvpers have when in a very dangerous situation. Over time with experience that will diminish and you may even find yourself needing to PvP in more expensive ships to maintain a pleasing level of rush. For example, few AGONY vetrans get a rush off flying tech 1 frigs anymore. The rush can be tempered and controlled with training and experience. Training teaches you to react automatically so that you can function with the rush going on. It also teaches you how to channel that rush into reaction speed and good decision making. PvPing in Eve has been compared to actual combat in real life by many people who are in the military or ex military. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:45:00 - [2] Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 19:53:10 Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 19:50:55 Myth: Frigates just blob the opponents to kill them so it requires no skill. Actually this couldnt be further from the truth. You take 10 frigates flown by untrained pilots and encounter 10 flown by trained pilots and you will see the trained pilots come out victorious. This doesnt mean they wont take losses, but they will win the fight. A blob is an unorganized, poorly led gang. A fleet is a well organized an led gang. Myth: If I jump into 0.0 I will die in minutes. If you dont know what you are doing, yes. If you have training you can happily live and rat in 0.0 without problems. Yes, even 2 week old chars can go ratting with friends in 0.0 effectively, you dont need a BS. Myth: This older player in his HAC called me and my friends cowards for not engaging him and therefore I must be doing something wrong. This is called "smacktalk". The player, for whatever reason, is trying to irritate you and goad you. if you let him goad you into doing something you wouldnt have normally (fighting with your balls rather than your brain). Then you are a fool. People on these very forums have challenged some rediculous things. One person even suggested we attack 20 battleships with 20 frigates; and called us cowards for declining. Part of PvP is knowing your limitations -- what you can and can not engage. Sun Tzu philosophy is premised on maintaining the initiative and fighting the engagement on your terms. In the 1800s this was known as having "The Weather Gage". Myth: PvP is all about blob warfare. In a PVP-BASIC class not long ago, the frigate equipped class engaged a battleship right under the noses of a fleet of much more power (HACs, Battleships, Cruisers, etc) and destroyed the battleship and then withdrew. They continued the hit and run attacks for over an hour, blowing up several more pieces of hardware. They did take losses but comparing isk, they lost 15 mil in total after insurance and inflicted 1.5 billion estimated isk of damage on the opponent. In another incident a small AGONY gang of 10 ships mixed frigates, destrozers and light cruisers encountered a gate camp of several BS, including snipers, cruisers, interceptors and warp bubbles. The engagment was surgical in its precision and the pilots tore apart the gate camp. Less than an hour later the gate campers had withdrawn with massive isk losses. Both incidents prove that superior training destroys blob warfare. The difference is in the tactics employed and the skill of the players controlling the characters. Myth: War is about isk and I dont have enough. False; War is about psychology, not isk. If you defeat your opponents psychologically, they will lose. Myth: Ok then if I get training I can kill the snipers on lowsec gates with my friends. Snipers are often risk adverse and are often aligned and traveling at full speed to a warpout safespot. In addition, they frequently have at least one warp core stab. Therefore, even if you can arrange to warp in right on top of him that 5 seconds between him seeing you and you being able to lock him is plenty of time for him to warp out. Killing people employing coward tactics in Eve is very hard in lowsec. In 0.0 it can be done with interdictors. The best bet with a lowsec sniper is to ignore him. Fly in something fast, scan ahead with ships that warp out fast and dont stress over them. Stress is actually their main goals. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:45:00 - [3] Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 19:49:18 As I surf through the board while eating my lunch, I see a pattern that is all too familiar in the boards. There are some newerplayers here making all sorts of suggestions about Eve and getting flamed and beaten down by some people that have been here quite a while. The number of people trying to give out good advice to these newer players is not insignificant but they are often loss in a morass of flames, trolling comments and smacktalk. So I thought I would make a post to help out these newer players. Not so much a FAQ as a list of things that the newer player should know before they get turned off by Eve by other players. I fear this will be somewhat of a marathon post but I hope it will be worth the read. The intention of the post is to provide information to the new player. Yes, I do mention my corp and its services a few times but that isnt the core intention, but rather just a natural consequence of the subject matter. Please feel free to ask more questions on the thread as well. Finally to the vetrans, please keep the thread free of flames and smacktalk -- disagree all you want but lets talk like adults shall we. Myth: PvP in Eve requires millions of skill points and and tons of hardware. This is rubbish. Agony Unleashed has been training pilots to PvP (incidentally these pilots stay in their own corps so this isnt recruitment) for over 8 months and the vast majority of our students are players under 2 months old. We have had several trial accounts take the courses (sponsored by friends). These pilots do just fine and are able to take out battleships flown by three year old chars. The difference is that in Eve, unlike other MMOGs, time in game does not make you invincible or even close to invincible. Tactics and training are superior to skill points. We have had several multi-year players take our course for this reason; merely proving that they knew that skill points isnt all there is to know. Myth: The best way to start PvP is to get in a fast frigate, put on a Microwarp drive and a disruptor and go tackle for a bigger ship. This will probably teach you how to die and use your pod but that is about all. A tech 1 frigate with a MWD has the signal radius of a battlecruiser. For those new to Eve, that means that is it EXTREMELY easy to hit you with big guns. Without the MWD, its like a deck gun of a real life destroyer trying to target a Speed Boat. Anyone who tells you to go "tackle" to get into PvP is SERIOUSLY misinformed. On top of that, without exceptionally good skills you wont be able to hold MWD and disruptor on a target for long without running out of capacitor energy; so on top of being suicidal, it is ineffective. Myth: All you have to do to PvP is to press F1 - F8. Totally untrue. PvP in Eve is incredibly complex, to the point of making other games look just plain silly. Everything from how you set up your ship to how to fly it in combat is a science. Players that think PvP is just aobut hitting keys die very fast when confronted by experienced pvpers. Myth: Frigates are useless in PvP combat. This is silly in the extreme. Any competent fleet commander will realize the potential of a frigates and other light ships accompanying his heavies (Battleships and the like). They have the potential to do more than warp disrupt the opponent. In a pure frigate fleet as few as 8 to 10 well piloted frogates can destroy a competently flown battleship without taking a single loss. Myth: Frigates are worthless because one smartbombing battleship will just blow you up. Twelve have tried vs AGONY and 11 died. One didnt die because of a mistake made, not because of the viability of the setup. A smartbombing battleship is just an insurance collection claim when it encounters a well trained frigate wing. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:47:00 - [4] Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 19:47:41 Question: Can I live and survive in 0.0? Isnt it worse than lowsec? Sure. A 2 week old player can live in 0.0 if they have training. Several newer agony members enjoy ratting in 0.0 for money. No you cant take that battleship rat alone but with training you can take it out with a group of friends. 5 or 6 people in tech 1 frigs with training can easily rat million isk spawn groups. As for piracy, assume anyone in 0.0 that doesnt have standings with your corp is hostile. If you see them choose to withdraw or to engage first but never let them sieze the initiative if you can help it. That being said, many tactics used by pirates in lowsec (like gate sniping for 2 hours 200km off in a BS) would be FATAL in 0.0. Hence you dont see "pirates" there much. Most pirates are risk adverse and sniping 0.0 pilots that know what they are doing and potentially have access to covert ops ships and interdictors is dangerous. Question: I just joined an alliance and they gave me a bunch of money and said "go for it" in 0.0. What should I do? Get training pronto. Take some of that cash and take a PVP-BASIC course and learn how to not die. We kill dozens of pilots that we almost feel sorry for. They are thrown into 0.0 without a clue or training and they end up getting squished like ants. Alliances that just throw you to the wolves arent worth your time. If they have no care for their junior members then be careful of them. Many times you will be told to go "tackle" (as described above) and treated like cannon fodder. They will act like you are worthless. Quit that alliance pronto. Question: How can I get training and find out more? AGONY unleashed specializes in training new pilots ot pvp and to survive in lowsec and 0.0 space. We have deep programs that will keep you comming back, learning more every time you show up. This is our main business area and we have over 8 months experience and over 600 allumni. You will be given reading materials as well as in flight instruction. If you are in an alliance convince your corp to send you to us to be trained. You dont have to remain a victim. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Gift Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:48:00 - [5] ..1 sec Pirates of Eve, Join channel "Pirate" Today!
Tao Han Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:09:00 - [6] While there are some good tips in here, I cant shake the feeling that this is some kind of recruiting thread?
Damon Ra	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:12:00 - [7] Originally by: Tao Han While there are some good tips in here, I cant shake the feeling that this is some kind of recruiting thread? /signed Shouldn't this be moved to the "recruitment" or "want to sell" forum?
Wanoah Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:13:00 - [8] If you ignore the subliminal advertising (), Rells is pretty much on the money here. Sadly, in many cases it will fall on deaf ears as most people seem to want to just have the game made easier for them rather than make an effort these days.
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:16:00 - [9] Great post. I request a Sticky. Ship lovers click here
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Tao Han While there are some good tips in here, I cant shake the feeling that this is some kind of recruiting thread? Agony is invite only corp and we dont recruit here. I will edit the post to make it seem less like marketing. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?

Nicocat Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:19:00 - [11] I approve. A well thought out and written post. I have a few things to add: 1) Even outside of a training class, frig wars are a blast. I've been an avid PvPer for a while now, and I NEVER take a Bship into battle unless I'm hunting a certain Scorpion with kill-rights on me. Cruisers are fun, BCs are fun, but nothing is as fun as taking a wave of frigates to annihilate things, especially in 0.0 space. I'm glad to see people are teaching others how to fight properly in them. However, if you plan to be the leader of such a group, consider investing in more metagame toys, like your own Teamspeak server, or simply a lot of extra training (In-game leadership skills and out-of-game tactics lessons). Commanding a frigate squad is considerably harder than virtually any other kind of squad short of a massive 60-man fleet. 2) Send your graduates my way in Mara. I need more playmates ;) ---------------------------- The opinions expressed by Nico do not reflect his corporation. He's just an ass. -Alexi Yes, I PvP in a Hookbill. How insane am I? EVE-Mail me and tell me!
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:20:00 - [12] love it great post sticky plz Hey i get paid to be ebil - Xorus So how much you want for the ebil goat??-Tirg I don't - Imz0r
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Nicocat 2) Send your graduates my way in Mara. I need more playmates ;) Too far away Im afraid. We do our courses in Syndicate. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rabbitgod Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:36:00 - [14] Awsome read. ---{24th member of the 23}---
DJ Xod Minmatar Eve Radio Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:51:00 - [15] Very nice, Rells. http://www.eve-radio.com
Easy Target Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.07 21:27:00 - [16] Nice post... :) Quote: Question: I got into PvP last weekend and I was shaking so bad I could barely do anything. This never happens to me in Counterstrike or similar games so why does this happen here? If u ever lose that, quit eve and take a break.. :) truth be told all people that do PVP get this "rush" during every battle where it isnt a cut and dried win... like was said it is just a case of controlling that rush. i still get it after 3 and a half years of eve, and 3 years of PVP gaming... just cos your PVP setup killed that last target with no problems doesnt mean it will kill the next target of the same ship class. I have lost a cruiser to a tech I frigate, i have also killed a cruiser in a tech I frigate... paper scissors stone.. anything but a gank isnt a guaranteed kill in eve... ----------------------------------------------- No i'm not good... but i have never claimed to be --------------------
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 21:51:00 - [17] Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 21:51:49 Originally by: Easy Target Nice post... :) Quote: Question: I got into PvP last weekend and I was shaking so bad I could barely do anything. This never happens to me in Counterstrike or similar games so why does this happen here? If u ever lose that, quit eve and take a break.. :) truth be told all people that do PVP get this "rush" during every battle where it isnt a cut and dried win... like was said it is just a case of controlling that rush. i still get it after 3 and a half years of eve, and 3 years of PVP gaming... We frequently have students that say they couldnt sleep at all after the class even after being up til late in the morning on a 12 hour wolfpack. Their adrenaline was going so much that they couldnt get to sleep for hours. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:09:00 - [18] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 07/09/2006 22:09:54 Interesting :) Would point out that you say to ignore smack, being called a coward etc and then later call lowsec snipers "cowards"... double standards? :P Also, just as a random drop-in, "weather gauge" in its original useage was fairly specific - just meant being upwind of the enemy when fighting in sailing ships, as being upwind gives you effective control over the field of engagement as old square-riggers found it much harder to move upwind than downwind and as with all ships couldn't get closer than 45 degrees to the wind anyway, so being upwind (and out of range initially) effectively allows you to dictate the terms of engagement. {edit} And yeah, the day you stop getting the shakes in equal combat is the day you lose your edge
Anara Serraph Serraph Family Holdings	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:11:00 - [19] <3 Rells 100% on the money this thread needs to be sticky
Souma12	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:36:00 - [20] yeh... forum mods make this a sticky please! it will help a lot of newbs

DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:41:00 - [21] Excellent post. Nice job. Would agree about reading in between the lines, but that is par for the course these days. Actually is a good idea to run a business like that - what else are we going to migrate to Eve from the real world? A little bit of criticism however (constructive hopefully) is in regards to the tackling in a frigate - pvp'ers should learn this first (and subsequently get kill a lot) as it teaches them valuable lessons early on at little to no cost. Plus it will take some of the edge off for future pvp scenarios (getting jumped, jumping into bubble camp, etc) that you can only get from the 'getting ganked' experience. Other than that, the majority of the stuff is dead on the money.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:01:00 - [22] Oh come on unless you blob with frigates you are sitting duck. Please don't tell me a frigate pilot 2 months old has a chance vs my Raven, with tech 2 precision cruise and a faction webber not to mention the 5 tech2 scout drones i got on your arse..... LEts not even get into what happens when I use a smaller tech2 ship decked in tech2 mods. I mean you are right that there is some basic strategy and set ups, but as a 2 month old pilot you are EXTREMELY limited in your set up options to start with. Can you contribute... yes a very little bit but still contribute, you do need to blob though. You are just missing far to many skills at 2 months to perform well. The difference between tech2 and tech1 is quite huge. Can a blob of 2 month old players in frigates cause some heart ache? Sure but your suggesting you don;t need to blob which is utter nonesense. 2 month old players in frigates are'nt even capable of breaking any decent tech 2 ships tank to be honest....unless they blob. I think it is a great post, it is extremely sugar coated relying on the special circumstances where you can survive with 2 month of sp in a t1 frig. None the less good info, just stretched a bit to far though. Now apply what rells said to a 6 month player and your cooking with gas.
Kari Awn Minmatar Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:14:00 - [23] Edited by: Kari Awn on 07/09/2006 23:16:21 Awesome post Rells. My husband, Rawk Awn, took your course and said it was worth it and everyone should take it if they plan on PvP, or just to have an idea of what PvP is like. I observed on a few occassions and listened in TS, he knows his stuff people. They should sticky this because it answers alot of questions alot of the newer players have. Great job!
Vim Spiritus Draconis	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:24:00 - [24] I'am all for new players into pvp with frigates, noob ships(cough) or cruisers. Teach a noob today see him bring down a battleship tomorrow thats my motto ^_^ /* Teach a noob today watch him takedown a battleship tomorrow... */
Caleb Paine Infinite Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:36:00 - [25] Nice read Rells, very useful. I hope a Mod will move it to Q&A and sticky it. Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Lucifer Fellblade Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:38:00 - [26] Well, I'm a complete newb to EVE, and I admit, I'm interested in something like this, if it is to be believed, I've been on the forums browsing for a while and this post seems to go against most of the other things you hear. Still, it tells that these things are possible but doesn't do much else, I guess thats why Rells mentioned the course so much.
Benglada Finite Auxiliary	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:47:00 - [27] i agree on the physchology thing, i jumped into 3 full pvp fit battleships and two of them warped out (the ones not scrambled) many many times. flashing redness ftw. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Red Ochre	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 20:16:55 Originally by: Tao Han While there are some good tips in here, I cant shake the feeling that this is some kind of recruiting thread? Agony is invite only corp and we dont recruit here. Reading through it i dont know how I could say some things differently. There really is no one else that does training for PvP. not so much recruitment but a plug for their services.......chuckle, very long winded commercial
Nymos Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.08 00:02:00 - [29] excellent post, really clears up alot of myths. the problem with those myths is that other noobs that got wtfpwnt a few times in low-sec or 0.0 give out this wrong advice. i recently had a discussion about the question of what player skills one needs to pvp. he said "isnt it just about the equipment"? no, it's not. unlike in other games, in eve the player skills count the most. knowing when and what to attack, how to attack, how to fly your ship properly, knowing what your and the opponent's ship are capable of, guessing his setup, have an idea about what's going on around you while fighting something in a gang etc etc. that all helps more than all faction gear and t2 ships. most of that comes only with experience, but you'll get there. if you sit there, lock, and hit F1-F8 you'll die... horribly fast. --
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.08 00:42:00 - [30] /Sticky this is a great read w valuable info..



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