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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.09 03:08:00 - [61] Well I suppose every good thread has to get trolled eventually. sigh Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.09 06:19:00 - [62] Originally by: Rells Well I suppose every good thread has to get trolled eventually. sigh Eventually? I think you missed Nanobotter's posts. Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when backdoor bandit is in local.
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.09 07:49:00 - [63] Originally by: Rells Well I suppose every ~~good~~ thread has to get trolled eventually. sigh
Lucian Sulla	Posted - 2006.09.09 09:11:00 - [64] I think you're confusing skill with a herd of angry lemmings. Give me thirty three-day old players, equip them with griffins and a multispec jammer, and I can take down anything in the game. Are swarm tactics effective? You Bet! Do you need a lot of skill points and money to be effective in PvP? Nope, just need 29 other noobs. Does blowing up a battle ship make you a skilled player? No, it just means that it took 30 of you to do the job of one real player. Look, Agony is basically like a bunch of New York City*****roaches. They're small and gross, and make a crunchy sound when you step on them. Unfortunately, they breed like crazy, so there's not much a person can do against the horde. Just remember, these guys also have no idea how to fight 1vs1, so if you catch one alone, squash him good! Make sure you wipe the gooey stuff off your feet afterwards though, that junk will stain the carpet.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.10 07:26:00 - [65] Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Rells Well I suppose every good thread has to get trolled eventually. sigh Eventually? I think you missed Nanobotter's posts. No I replied to him. Anyway. I hope the post helps some people out and people ignore the sillyness. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.09.10 12:12:00 - [66] Originally by: Rells Well I suppose every good thread has to get trolled eventually Myth: Trolls are dangerous creatures Unlike common sense implies, they are rather harmless. They get nasty only if you start feeding them. So, should you want to take care of your threads, you gotta ignore derailing comments about your sister, and just focus on meaningfull posts. As even Nanobotter noted, great post despite the marketspeak. Every new fellow you encourage to go out there is a valuable tarH^H^H addition to our complex community. -Lasse P.S. And as related anecdote, every now and then we get fights were boths sides feel they won and had a good fight -> Eve at the best.
Kindakrof Caldari Cruor Frater Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2006.09.10 13:08:00 - [67] Actually, about that pirate and fear thing is totally wrong. A flashing red pirate does not use fear as his primary weapon. After you get down to -5 there is a button in the menu you can set it to 'Easy' That's how pirates win. --- --- --- my sig is pr0 Thanks for the lemon
RuleoftheBone	Posted - 2006.09.11 08:57:00 - [68] Trolls, silly/uninformed posts, and ship config arguing aside the OP actually has made a very useful post for us newer players. In fact I am seriously contemplating taking the course if Rells would not mind clarifying a few things: 1-While being new to EvE I have had the opportunity for a bit of PvP...in one case completely unplanned and resulting in the quick popping of my ship by a very skilled and overpowering pirate. In reading through your post and visiting your website it appears that your course is emphasizing flotilla-level/co-operative ganged tactics...is this correct? 2-Coming from a flight sim background (Janes series, Commanche-v-Hokum, FIV, etc etc) I fail to see how ACM is really implemented ingame. The way I have seen things this far maneuvers are really limited to "orbit at x", "approach", and click around space to change direction. It seems to me that individual combat is restricted to rock-paper-scissors modified by the skill attributes of the combatants.....is this a correct statement for me to make and how does your course work around these limitations? 3-It also appears that your course has the emphasis on teaching group battle tactics and overcoming the "fear" that folks might feel at risking thier virtual butts....what do you offer players who are already comfortable working in a team environment and already have a "virtual" instinct for going head-to-head where appropriate? Again...thanks for a useful post and look forward to your response. Bone
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.11 19:36:00 - [69] Originally by: RuleoftheBone 1-While being new to EvE I have had the opportunity for a bit of PvP...in one case completely unplanned and resulting in the quick popping of my ship by a very skilled and overpowering pirate. In reading through your post and visiting your website it appears that your course is emphasizing flotilla-level/co-operative ganged tactics...is this correct? PvP in Eve is best done as a team sport. AGONY pvps in small groups quite often but we teach the students initially to work in a gang and the class gangs are sometimes rather large. The impact of pvp basic is designed to be psychological as well as tactical. We want the students to lose their fear of 0.0 and thus some engagements are a bit overkill. However there have been hectic, fleet clash and multiship engagements in class times and occasionally murphy will intervene and part of the class will get killed. We warn students attending that pvp is dangerous and there is a high chance of ending up in your clone bay. But if you do, we will collect you, get you back up to speed and out for revenge. Originally by: RuleoftheBone 2-Coming from a flight sim background (Janes series, Commanche-v-Hokum, FIV, etc etc) I fail to see how ACM is really implemented ingame. The way I have seen things this far maneuvers are really limited to "orbit at x", "approach", and click around space to change direction. It seems to me that individual combat is restricted to rock-paper-scissors modified by the skill attributes of the combatants.....is this a correct statement for me to make and how does your course work around these limitations? Nope. Eve combat is extremeley deep an detailed. It is tactical in nature rather than being focused on reflexes. However, some level of reflexes are involved. In basic we try to boil it down so students find they can handle the flow of tasks to be done. There are sometimes dozens of things to do in a very short timespan. Eve combat is the most deep combat I have seen in 15+ years of gameplay in pvp games. Originally by: RuleoftheBone 3-It also appears that your course has the emphasis on teaching group battle tactics and overcoming the "fear" that folks might feel at risking thier virtual butts....what do you offer players who are already comfortable working in a team environment and already have a "virtual" instinct for going head-to-head where appropriate? There is a lot of training you need to be effective in PvP. You can spend the next 2 years learning the hard and expensive way and you will get there. We can shortcut that process and get you there a lot quicker. AGONY corp pilots are relatively young as eve pilots go but they are quite good at pvp because of this shortcutting. Training, tactical combat with light ships and PvP in general are our specialties. Originally by: RuleoftheBone Again...thanks for a useful post and look forward to your response. Bone NP. =) Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.11 20:28:00 - [70] Heh, still all boils down to using large numbers in cheap ships to beat solo players...not my idea of competitive PVP, nor does it alter the fact your not really competing with the high sp expensive ship player you and your 15 friends in frigs pwned. I mean it is accurate and can be done, but it isnt remotely the same as saying you can compete with a high sp player in a decked out ship. I mean Your message seemed to be hey your 2 months old got a t1 frig and very little SP, don;t worry about pvp just learn to fly and go out and wtfpwn people! You don't support that, instead it is get 15 other new players and if you all can fly go pwn solo vets....which is fine but something completely different. I think alot of people think of PVP as player vs player, me vs you, my group vs your group, my corp vs your corp and not many people think of 20 on 1 gang bangs :P
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.11 20:57:00 - [71] "Question: How is it that pirates attack multiple ships while solo and come out on top? Are they just really good or something? Not really. Pirates cultivate an image of evil and fear and this is their major weapon. When a pirate warps into a belt of 10 ratting ships, he is generally counting on most of them running from his bright red flashing line in the overview. Flashing red is a primordial signal of danger and triggers flight reflexes in many people. The skull reinforces this for a bountied player. If those players in a belt had actually all ganged the pirate, he probably would have lost. Change your pirates to flash another color such as green and watch how that changes your fear response. Pirates often compound this psychological weapon by being nasty and agressive in local, this leads to feelings of inferiority and rage and many people attack them in a "holy war" of rage. A pirate encountered by a competent gang commander who stays calm and ignores local will be a dead pirate." This tip is so true. I used to steer clear of ratting groups, didnt want to be outnumbered, etc. But more often then not, you warp in, and the group scatters, leaving the one poor soul you netted with your warp scram. When the inverse happens, you warp in on someone, and all his friends immediately warp to the belt to help, you know its time to withdraw. Also, nice business idea you have there. Its things like this that make EVE great. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Gustavef Minmatar International Multi-Player Consortium	Posted - 2006.09.11 23:01:00 - [72] Speaking as a recent participant of their basic class, I would re-emphisize that the class is "basic." However, it does does give inexperience pilots two very important lessons: 1) It changes the idea of "If I go to 0.0 I WILL die" to "If I go to 0.0, I could get podded, but I can control a decent amount of the situation and get out with minimal losses" 2) Know how to use what you have is more important then just having the best stuff. I have to give Agony and Rells credit. By offering open training to anyone who desires, their organization is getting more people interesting in PvP. If even half of the players that go though their courses turn in to active PvPers (the other half at least learned how to survive PvP) that means more people who will stand and fight. (and loose their ships and have to buy new one to support us Empire Industrial Carebears ) -gustavef
Winter QC Amarr Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.09.12 01:24:00 - [73] Great post.
Skraelingz Gallente Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2006.09.12 03:31:00 - [74] Since when is superior numbers in a military engangement not a tactic... vive la blob! -----------------------------------------------
Eternal Fire	Posted - 2006.09.12 06:25:00 - [75] this is really just a long care bear loving, newbie hugging, pirate bashing, frigate obsessed post. now I have to thow up.
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.12 07:48:00 - [76] Originally by: Schlepperchen Originally by: Rells Myth: The best way to start PvP is to get in a fast frigate, put on a Microwarp drive and a disruptor and go tackle for a bigger ship. This will probably teach you how to die and use your pod but that is about all. A tech 1 frigate with a MWD has the signal radius of a battlecruiser. For those new to Eve, that means that is it EXTREMELY easy to hit you with big guns. Without the MWD, its like a deck gun of a real life destroyer trying to target a Speed Boat. Anyone who tells you to go "tackle" to get into PvP is SERIOUSLY misinformed. On top of that, without exceptionally good skills you wont be able to hold MWD and disruptor on a target for long without running out of capacitor energy; so on top of being suicidal, it is ineffective. A Rifter with a named MWD, small cap battery and cap relays can hold a 15km orbit with more then 2000m/s with a 20km running forever. It will outrun med drones and even med guns will have a problem to hit it below 30km range. I stopped reading your post at this point. You not gonna outrun my warrior II's. They eat interceptors. And 15km is still 10km inside NOS range Originally by: Posidrive So technically being a pirate is't quite as easy as I thought after reading this guide.
Firequill Gallente The Black Ops	Posted - 2006.09.12 09:59:00 - [77] Originally by: RuleoftheBone The way I have seen things this far maneuvers are really limited to "orbit at x", "approach", and click around space to change direction. It seems to me that individual combat is restricted to rock-paper-scissors modified by the skill attributes of the combatants.....is this a correct statement for me to make? You are only mentioning the execution of battle.. Consider this: 50% of the battles are decided when you are in the hangar, loading out. This is the stage where you plan the bulk of the battle. 40% is decided choosing the enemy/field of battle. This is where the tactics part comes in, using the scanner appropriately, having scouts, being aware and prepared etc. 9% is played out by blind luck, as in, unforeseen things can always happen. (f.o.i you could get your shiny interceptor caught on a roid when you warp in, and getting it turned to dust when odds were in your favor. And NOW the final 1 % !! Execution! Thats right, the button-pushing. the last percentage is dependent on wether or not you can time the f1-f8 correctly. And ironically enough, the final percentage is the hardest to overcome for most players. The tip to start pvp-ing by tackling is and always has been a good way to lessen that last "obstacle", de-sensitizing the pilot! (throwing him headfirst into the frontlines) Im referring to, Fear, doubt, Shaking hands.. and general jitters, which Will bring all the other components of the battle to a grinding halt and get you (and possibly others)killed! If this course that rells is more or less covertly advocating will help anyone on their way to becoming what they wish, then so be it. But i feel as i always have about such things: That the most efficient, loyal, ruthless and compassionate teacher you could ever hope for is the one staring back at you in the mirror! All but the last percentage of a battle can be taught and learned. The last must be Conquered! By you and You alone! Well, my frame of mind on the subject anyway, it has served me well.
RuleoftheBone	Posted - 2006.09.13 13:06:00 - [78] Thanks for the replies Rells and Firequill. I have a couple more comments though based on your responses-specifically: "Eve combat is extremeley deep an detailed. It is tactical in nature rather than being focused on reflexes. However, some level of reflexes are involved. In basic we try to boil it down so students find they can handle the flow of tasks to be done. There are sometimes dozens of things to do in a very short timespan. Eve combat is the most deep combat I have seen in 15+ years of gameplay in pvp games." Rells Err...with all due respect I am going to have to disagree with you there in a couple of aspects. While the nature of SHIP SETUP is very complex individual ship flying and combat tactics are not modeled-or rather modeled in a FUN way. While it may not be a fair comparison there is a big difference between EvE combat and "realistic" combat sims (i.e. Falcon IV, Steel Beasts, IL-2, Silent Hunter III, I-War etc) where one is required to monitor multiple MFD's(multifunction displays..usually with buckets of sub pages) and actually fly/drive the aircraft/tank/sub within the realms and limitations of "realistic" sim physics. It's even tougher in IL-2 where with realism cranked you don't have the "radars/sensors" etc and just use the old Mark I eyeball and the joystick hat to pan. Or computing a maual firing solution in SHIII. Or trying to overcome vector physics in I-War...just to name a few examples. Its all good....but there is no real ACM in EvE and it appears to come down to proper ship fitting, pilot skill levels, and team tactics. But then again I am a boring old grognard at heart . Also...from Firequill: "50% of the battles are decided when you are in the hangar, loading out.This is the stage where you plan the bulk of the battle." Again...with respect to you this does confirm the rock-paper-scissors model of combat in EvE. Having said that this is the very tricky part of EvE with the endless combinations of weapons/mods and ship types. It is way easier to load out an IL-2...or an F-16 for that matter...BUT-and a big but-there is no RTB (return to base) option when bounced over target--ya just gotta fight with what you bring or run away if you can....as opposed to the "I gotta dock and change out my NOS for AC's" EvE approach. Again....comparing "realistic" sims to EvE is very unfair on my part. Again...cheers for the answers from both of you and I more than likely will sign up for the course anyway as I am not really interested in the big ships in EvE (I am heading down the interceptor/covert ops route) and I want to learn to get the most from my Rifter/Thrasher in PvP situations. Bone out.......
Sever Aldaria Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.13 14:35:00 - [79] Edited by: Sever Aldaria on 13/09/2006 14:34:55 Originally by: RuleoftheBone I am heading down the interceptor[...] route You'll find yourself using some ACM when you get into those then. When you're flying 4+ km/s just using "approach" and "orbit" doesn't always cut it.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.13 16:06:00 - [80] Edited by: James Lyrus on 13/09/2006 16:09:46 Originally by: Skraelingz Since when is superior numbers in a military engangement not a tactic... vive la blob! It's never been a tactic. It's a strategy :). AGONY's PvP-BASIC I've heard good things about. Just a shame the ROE is pretty much contradictory to the ISS Charter. I'd also add that 0.0/PvP is nothing at all to do with skillpoints, and only partially to do with training. The real key is attitude. Are you prepared to risk what you've got, and hope on balance you come out ahead. I have seen characters under a month old, PvPing, living in 0.0 full time, and generally having a blast. I've seen characters 3 years old, that have never even been into lowsec. What the training does, aside from a bit of the strategy and tactics of PvP, is to let you control the totally immmense adrenaline rush you get.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.17 06:33:00 - [81] Originally by: James Lyrus I'd also add that 0.0/PvP is nothing at all to do with skillpoints, and only partially to do with training. The real key is attitude. Are you prepared to risk what you've got, and hope on balance you come out ahead. I would disagree. You training is 70% of pvp and it comes with the desire to pvp. The other 30% is not being risk adverse. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
codepic Mithril Inc Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.17 09:13:00 - [82] Originally by: Rells Myth: The best way to start PvP is to get in a fast frigate, put on a Microwarp drive and a disruptor and go tackle for a bigger ship. This will probably teach you how to die and use your pod but that is about all. A tech 1 frigate with a MWD has the signal radius of a battlecruiser. For those new to Eve, that means that is it EXTREMELY easy to hit you with big guns. Without the MWD, its like a deck gun of a real life destroyer trying to target a Speed Boat. Anyone who tells you to go "tackle" to get into PvP is SERIOUSLY misinformed. On top of that, without exceptionally good skills you wont be able to hold MWD and disruptor on a target for long without running out of capacitor energy; so on top of being suicidal, it is ineffective. Truth: The best way to start PvP is to get in a tackler-frigate You will learn the basics of signature radius, transversal velocity, locking times, orbiting ranges and what not in a tackling frigate You will not risk your whole wealth. PvP is fun only if you can afford loosing what you're flying. It also teaches from day 1 to do the risk assesment right... You don't keep MWD on ALL the time. Usually one cycle is enough to get close enough the target and start orbiting, after which the MWD is turned off... This will teach the right usage of MWD and also teach the basics of how MWD affects sig radius If a frigate starts taking damage, it warps to the closes celestial object or safespot, repairs itself during the warp and returns into the field to tackle the hostile. If a fleet has enough tacklers, they can do this constantly without loosing a single tackler. This will teach the new players how to save your ship in a tight situation, still without risk of loosing all your wealth. This information WILL prove valuable later on. And is effective. And if the tackler delays even 1 second before locking the primary/secondary, he will avoid the default "auto target back 1 targets" effect and will not be locked. Although, if a gang is properly set up, everyone should have this feature set to 0. It is BY FAR the best way to start with PvP. Period.
DemonStar Supernova Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2006.09.17 09:45:00 - [83] I only have one rule of PvP. Never ever hold back on your setup. You may be flying a more expensive ship, but those t2 guns and factional hardeners are the one thing that may give you an active edge in a battle. I dont know about you, but id rather side on the chance of a killmail than having some spare isk in my wallet when my oponent is scooping up my corpse. That being said, buy a group of ships strictly for PvP. Fit them well, and plan to lose them because you eventually will. I own 2 megas for this reason exactly, not to mention a small fleet of AF's and cruisers. You still stand to lose ISK, but you can never hit rock bottom. Plus, buying a ship that you've already doomed to destruction makes it that much easier to take into a fight in the first place, you already know what its meant for.
Savio	Posted - 2006.09.17 10:41:00 - [84] Good post :) tnx for the tips!
Zaldo Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.17 11:21:00 - [85] A sticky for this one pls Mining all day ^^
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.02 09:26:00 - [86] Originally by: DemonStar Supernova I only have one rule of PvP. Never ever hold back on your setup. You may be flying a more expensive ship, but those t2 guns and factional hardeners are the one thing that may give you an active edge in a battle. I dont know about you, but id rather side on the chance of a killmail than having some spare isk in my wallet when my oponent is scooping up my corpse. That being said, buy a group of ships strictly for PvP. Fit them well, and plan to lose them because you eventually will. I own 2 megas for this reason exactly, not to mention a small fleet of AF's and cruisers. You still stand to lose ISK, but you can never hit rock bottom. Plus, buying a ship that you've already doomed to destruction makes it that much easier to take into a fight in the first place, you already know what its meant for. This is bad advice for anyone new to pvp and great advice to give by people looking to prey on those newbies. Keep it cheap, get freinds and get training. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
xahldera Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.09 01:13:00 - [87] I wish I could agree to some of the above, but the fact of the matter is that there will always be those players who will beat you hands down in a PvP fight, no matter how hard you try. This is not to discourage anyone wanting to go out and fight PvP, this is just a warning that there are hardcore players out there who do nothing except play video games and have no life outside of it. So be prepared to be beat even if you follow the above advice to the letter. Xahldera I once saw a Megathron on escrow that was actually a piece of megacyte. -User on Corp Chatroom
Sovy Kurosei Amarr Therianthropic Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.09 01:49:00 - [88] Why is it that people are so inflammatory against Rells whenever he makes a new thread? Same thing happened in that one thread when a class of fourteen engaged a battleship and managed to take it out even when his friends warped in to assist. ___________________
Illistar DeathWing	Posted - 2006.10.09 02:40:00 - [89] I would love to go to one of these, but right now I'm struggling to get enough money to buy skill books let alone blow 5 mil for a few hours course. You have to relise that to new people that is alot of money. On top of that you want them to take many pre-req courses to get into the one they want.
MeGrand Gallente Thunder Talons	Posted - 2006.10.09 04:37:00 - [90] first off regrads for the longest decently wirtten post in ages decent advice too - even if it does read like a recuirtment add All the right letters - just not nessacarily in the right order

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my sig is pr0