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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:45:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 19:48:26 Question: If someone wardecs my empire bound corp and we are smaller and less experienced than them, can we do anything? Yes and no. The right training of your players will put you in the position to be able to fight back against the war dec. However, empire wars tend to boil down to dock wars. The aggression timer is only a paltry 30 seconds so that bs can snipe your hauler and then dock before you can kill him. Killing a well tanked BS in under 30 seconds is EXTREMELY hard and takes a massive amount of force -- an amount of force you are unlikely to have if you are being griefer wardeced. Corps like Contraband have that kind of force but then people rarely try to "griefer war dec" Contraband. Your best bet is to make insta-undock bookmarks that allow you to get just about anything out of station, avoid deathtrap stations that hang you up on the structure when undocking and generally let the enemy die of boredom. Remember war is psychological. If you get the chance to catch one of them with a frig pack while they are out of dock range all the better. Getting your shiny T2 fitted BS blown up by a dozen frigs is a great psychological weapon. Question: How do I protect myself from pirates while mining? The best answer is to go with friends and have those friends be well trained. Pirates having a hard time with people in an area will generally seek easier prey elsewhere after a while. Question: How is it that pirates attack multiple ships while solo and come out on top? Are they just really good or something? Not really. Pirates cultivate an image of evil and fear and this is their major weapon. When a pirate warps into a belt of 10 ratting ships, he is generally counting on most of them running from his bright red flashing line in the overview. Flashing red is a primordial signal of danger and triggers flight reflexes in many people. The skull reinforces this for a bountied player. If those players in a belt had actually all ganged the pirate, he probably would have lost. Change your pirates to flash another color such as green and watch how that changes your fear response. Pirates compound this psychological weapon by being nasty and agressive in local, this leads to feelings of inferiority and rage and many people attack them in a "holy war" of rage. A pirate encountered by a competent gang commander who stays calm and ignores local will be a dead pirate. Question: I got into PvP last weekend and I was shaking so bad I could barely do anything. This never happens to me in Counterstrike or similar games so why does this happen here? In Eve you have something to lose in PvP and this is what makes PvP in Eve great. You experinced an extreme form of "the rush" that all pvpers have when in a very dangerous situation. Over time with experience that will diminish and you may even find yourself needing to PvP in more expensive ships to maintain a pleasing level of rush. For example, few AGONY vetrans get a rush off flying tech 1 frigs anymore. The rush can be tempered and controlled with training and experience. Training teaches you to react automatically so that you can function with the rush going on. It also teaches you how to channel that rush into reaction speed and good decision making. PvPing in Eve has been compared to actual combat in real life by many people who are in the military or ex military. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:45:00 - [2] Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 19:53:10 Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 19:50:55 Myth: Frigates just blob the opponents to kill them so it requires no skill. Actually this couldnt be further from the truth. You take 10 frigates flown by untrained pilots and encounter 10 flown by trained pilots and you will see the trained pilots come out victorious. This doesnt mean they wont take losses, but they will win the fight. A blob is an unorganized, poorly led gang. A fleet is a well organized an led gang. Myth: If I jump into 0.0 I will die in minutes. If you dont know what you are doing, yes. If you have training you can happily live and rat in 0.0 without problems. Yes, even 2 week old chars can go ratting with friends in 0.0 effectively, you dont need a BS. Myth: This older player in his HAC called me and my friends cowards for not engaging him and therefore I must be doing something wrong. This is called "smacktalk". The player, for whatever reason, is trying to irritate you and goad you. if you let him goad you into doing something you wouldnt have normally (fighting with your balls rather than your brain). Then you are a fool. People on these very forums have challenged some rediculous things. One person even suggested we attack 20 battleships with 20 frigates; and called us cowards for declining. Part of PvP is knowing your limitations -- what you can and can not engage. Sun Tzu philosophy is premised on maintaining the initiative and fighting the engagement on your terms. In the 1800s this was known as having "The Weather Gage". Myth: PvP is all about blob warfare. In a PVP-BASIC class not long ago, the frigate equipped class engaged a battleship right under the noses of a fleet of much more power (HACs, Battleships, Cruisers, etc) and destroyed the battleship and then withdrew. They continued the hit and run attacks for over an hour, blowing up several more pieces of hardware. They did take losses but comparing isk, they lost 15 mil in total after insurance and inflicted 1.5 billion estimated isk of damage on the opponent. In another incident a small AGONY gang of 10 ships mixed frigates, destrozers and light cruisers encountered a gate camp of several BS, including snipers, cruisers, interceptors and warp bubbles. The engagment was surgical in its precision and the pilots tore apart the gate camp. Less than an hour later the gate campers had withdrawn with massive isk losses. Both incidents prove that superior training destroys blob warfare. The difference is in the tactics employed and the skill of the players controlling the characters. Myth: War is about isk and I dont have enough. False; War is about psychology, not isk. If you defeat your opponents psychologically, they will lose. Myth: Ok then if I get training I can kill the snipers on lowsec gates with my friends. Snipers are often risk adverse and are often aligned and traveling at full speed to a warpout safespot. In addition, they frequently have at least one warp core stab. Therefore, even if you can arrange to warp in right on top of him that 5 seconds between him seeing you and you being able to lock him is plenty of time for him to warp out. Killing people employing coward tactics in Eve is very hard in lowsec. In 0.0 it can be done with interdictors. The best bet with a lowsec sniper is to ignore him. Fly in something fast, scan ahead with ships that warp out fast and dont stress over them. Stress is actually their main goals. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:45:00 - [3] Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 19:49:18 As I surf through the board while eating my lunch, I see a pattern that is all too familiar in the boards. There are some newerplayers here making all sorts of suggestions about Eve and getting flamed and beaten down by some people that have been here quite a while. The number of people trying to give out good advice to these newer players is not insignificant but they are often loss in a morass of flames, trolling comments and smacktalk. So I thought I would make a post to help out these newer players. Not so much a FAQ as a list of things that the newer player should know before they get turned off by Eve by other players. I fear this will be somewhat of a marathon post but I hope it will be worth the read. The intention of the post is to provide information to the new player. Yes, I do mention my corp and its services a few times but that isnt the core intention, but rather just a natural consequence of the subject matter. Please feel free to ask more questions on the thread as well. Finally to the vetrans, please keep the thread free of flames and smacktalk -- disagree all you want but lets talk like adults shall we. Myth: PvP in Eve requires millions of skill points and and tons of hardware. This is rubbish. Agony Unleashed has been training pilots to PvP (incidentally these pilots stay in their own corps so this isnt recruitment) for over 8 months and the vast majority of our students are players under 2 months old. We have had several trial accounts take the courses (sponsored by friends). These pilots do just fine and are able to take out battleships flown by three year old chars. The difference is that in Eve, unlike other MMOGs, time in game does not make you invincible or even close to invincible. Tactics and training are superior to skill points. We have had several multi-year players take our course for this reason; merely proving that they knew that skill points isnt all there is to know. Myth: The best way to start PvP is to get in a fast frigate, put on a Microwarp drive and a disruptor and go tackle for a bigger ship. This will probably teach you how to die and use your pod but that is about all. A tech 1 frigate with a MWD has the signal radius of a battlecruiser. For those new to Eve, that means that is it EXTREMELY easy to hit you with big guns. Without the MWD, its like a deck gun of a real life destroyer trying to target a Speed Boat. Anyone who tells you to go "tackle" to get into PvP is SERIOUSLY misinformed. On top of that, without exceptionally good skills you wont be able to hold MWD and disruptor on a target for long without running out of capacitor energy; so on top of being suicidal, it is ineffective. Myth: All you have to do to PvP is to press F1 - F8. Totally untrue. PvP in Eve is incredibly complex, to the point of making other games look just plain silly. Everything from how you set up your ship to how to fly it in combat is a science. Players that think PvP is just aobut hitting keys die very fast when confronted by experienced pvpers. Myth: Frigates are useless in PvP combat. This is silly in the extreme. Any competent fleet commander will realize the potential of a frigates and other light ships accompanying his heavies (Battleships and the like). They have the potential to do more than warp disrupt the opponent. In a pure frigate fleet as few as 8 to 10 well piloted frogates can destroy a competently flown battleship without taking a single loss. Myth: Frigates are worthless because one smartbombing battleship will just blow you up. Twelve have tried vs AGONY and 11 died. One didnt die because of a mistake made, not because of the viability of the setup. A smartbombing battleship is just an insurance collection claim when it encounters a well trained frigate wing. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:47:00 - [4] Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 19:47:41 Question: Can I live and survive in 0.0? Isnt it worse than lowsec? Sure. A 2 week old player can live in 0.0 if they have training. Several newer agony members enjoy ratting in 0.0 for money. No you cant take that battleship rat alone but with training you can take it out with a group of friends. 5 or 6 people in tech 1 frigs with training can easily rat million isk spawn groups. As for piracy, assume anyone in 0.0 that doesnt have standings with your corp is hostile. If you see them choose to withdraw or to engage first but never let them sieze the initiative if you can help it. That being said, many tactics used by pirates in lowsec (like gate sniping for 2 hours 200km off in a BS) would be FATAL in 0.0. Hence you dont see "pirates" there much. Most pirates are risk adverse and sniping 0.0 pilots that know what they are doing and potentially have access to covert ops ships and interdictors is dangerous. Question: I just joined an alliance and they gave me a bunch of money and said "go for it" in 0.0. What should I do? Get training pronto. Take some of that cash and take a PVP-BASIC course and learn how to not die. We kill dozens of pilots that we almost feel sorry for. They are thrown into 0.0 without a clue or training and they end up getting squished like ants. Alliances that just throw you to the wolves arent worth your time. If they have no care for their junior members then be careful of them. Many times you will be told to go "tackle" (as described above) and treated like cannon fodder. They will act like you are worthless. Quit that alliance pronto. Question: How can I get training and find out more? AGONY unleashed specializes in training new pilots ot pvp and to survive in lowsec and 0.0 space. We have deep programs that will keep you comming back, learning more every time you show up. This is our main business area and we have over 8 months experience and over 600 allumni. You will be given reading materials as well as in flight instruction. If you are in an alliance convince your corp to send you to us to be trained. You dont have to remain a victim. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Gift Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:48:00 - [5] ..1 sec Pirates of Eve, Join channel "Pirate" Today!
Tao Han Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:09:00 - [6] While there are some good tips in here, I cant shake the feeling that this is some kind of recruiting thread?
Damon Ra	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:12:00 - [7] Originally by: Tao Han While there are some good tips in here, I cant shake the feeling that this is some kind of recruiting thread? /signed Shouldn't this be moved to the "recruitment" or "want to sell" forum?
Wanoah Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:13:00 - [8] If you ignore the subliminal advertising (), Rells is pretty much on the money here. Sadly, in many cases it will fall on deaf ears as most people seem to want to just have the game made easier for them rather than make an effort these days.
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:16:00 - [9] Great post. I request a Sticky. Ship lovers click here
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Tao Han While there are some good tips in here, I cant shake the feeling that this is some kind of recruiting thread? Agony is invite only corp and we dont recruit here. I will edit the post to make it seem less like marketing. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Nicocat Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:19:00 - [11] I approve. A well thought out and written post. I have a few things to add: 1) Even outside of a training class, frig wars are a blast. I've been an avid PvPer for a while now, and I NEVER take a Bship into battle unless I'm hunting a certain Scorpion with kill-rights on me. Cruisers are fun, BCs are fun, but nothing is as fun as taking a wave of frigates to annihilate things, especially in 0.0 space. I'm glad to see people are teaching others how to fight properly in them. However, if you plan to be the leader of such a group, consider investing in more metagame toys, like your own Teamspeak server, or simply a lot of extra training (In-game leadership skills and out-of-game tactics lessons). Commanding a frigate squad is considerably harder than virtually any other kind of squad short of a massive 60-man fleet. 2) Send your graduates my way in Mara. I need more playmates ;) ---------------------------- The opinions expressed by Nico do not reflect his corporation. He's just an ass. -Alexi Yes, I PvP in a Hookbill. How insane am I? EVE-Mail me and tell me!
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:20:00 - [12] love it great post sticky plz Hey i get paid to be ebil - Xorus So how much you want for the ebil goat??-Tirg I don't - Imz0r
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Nicocat 2) Send your graduates my way in Mara. I need more playmates ;) Too far away Im afraid. We do our courses in Syndicate. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rabbitgod Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:36:00 - [14] Awsome read. ---{24th member of the 23}---
DJ Xod Minmatar Eve Radio Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:51:00 - [15] Very nice, Rells. http://www.eve-radio.com
Easy Target Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.07 21:27:00 - [16] Nice post... :) Quote: Question: I got into PvP last weekend and I was shaking so bad I could barely do anything. This never happens to me in Counterstrike or similar games so why does this happen here? If u ever lose that, quit eve and take a break.. :) truth be told all people that do PVP get this "rush" during every battle where it isnt a cut and dried win... like was said it is just a case of controlling that rush. i still get it after 3 and a half years of eve, and 3 years of PVP gaming... just cos your PVP setup killed that last target with no problems doesnt mean it will kill the next target of the same ship class. I have lost a cruiser to a tech I frigate, i have also killed a cruiser in a tech I frigate... paper scissors stone.. anything but a gank isnt a guaranteed kill in eve... ----------------------------------------------- No i'm not good... but i have never claimed to be --------------------
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 21:51:00 - [17] Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 21:51:49 Originally by: Easy Target Nice post... :) Quote: Question: I got into PvP last weekend and I was shaking so bad I could barely do anything. This never happens to me in Counterstrike or similar games so why does this happen here? If u ever lose that, quit eve and take a break.. :) truth be told all people that do PVP get this "rush" during every battle where it isnt a cut and dried win... like was said it is just a case of controlling that rush. i still get it after 3 and a half years of eve, and 3 years of PVP gaming... We frequently have students that say they couldnt sleep at all after the class even after being up til late in the morning on a 12 hour wolfpack. Their adrenaline was going so much that they couldnt get to sleep for hours. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:09:00 - [18] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 07/09/2006 22:09:54 Interesting :) Would point out that you say to ignore smack, being called a coward etc and then later call lowsec snipers "cowards"... double standards? :P Also, just as a random drop-in, "weather gauge" in its original useage was fairly specific - just meant being upwind of the enemy when fighting in sailing ships, as being upwind gives you effective control over the field of engagement as old square-riggers found it much harder to move upwind than downwind and as with all ships couldn't get closer than 45 degrees to the wind anyway, so being upwind (and out of range initially) effectively allows you to dictate the terms of engagement. {edit} And yeah, the day you stop getting the shakes in equal combat is the day you lose your edge
Anara Serraph Serraph Family Holdings	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:11:00 - [19] <3 Rells 100% on the money this thread needs to be sticky
Souma12	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:36:00 - [20] yeh... forum mods make this a sticky please! it will help a lot of newbs
DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:41:00 - [21] Excellent post. Nice job. Would agree about reading in between the lines, but that is par for the course these days. Actually is a good idea to run a business like that - what else are we going to migrate to Eve from the real world? A little bit of criticism however (constructive hopefully) is in regards to the tackling in a frigate - pvp'ers should learn this first (and subsequently get kill a lot) as it teaches them valuable lessons early on at little to no cost. Plus it will take some of the edge off for future pvp scenarios (getting jumped, jumping into bubble camp, etc) that you can only get from the 'getting ganked' experience. Other than that, the majority of the stuff is dead on the money.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:01:00 - [22] Oh come on unless you blob with frigates you are sitting duck. Please don't tell me a frigate pilot 2 months old has a chance vs my Raven, with tech 2 precision cruise and a faction webber not to mention the 5 tech2 scout drones i got on your arse..... LEts not even get into what happens when I use a smaller tech2 ship decked in tech2 mods. I mean you are right that there is some basic strategy and set ups, but as a 2 month old pilot you are EXTREMELY limited in your set up options to start with. Can you contribute... yes a very little bit but still contribute, you do need to blob though. You are just missing far to many skills at 2 months to perform well. The difference between tech2 and tech1 is quite huge. Can a blob of 2 month old players in frigates cause some heart ache? Sure but your suggesting you don;t need to blob which is utter nonesense. 2 month old players in frigates are'nt even capable of breaking any decent tech 2 ships tank to be honest....unless they blob. I think it is a great post, it is extremely sugar coated relying on the special circumstances where you can survive with 2 month of sp in a t1 frig. None the less good info, just stretched a bit to far though. Now apply what rells said to a 6 month player and your cooking with gas.
Kari Awn Minmatar Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:14:00 - [23] Edited by: Kari Awn on 07/09/2006 23:16:21 Awesome post Rells. My husband, Rawk Awn, took your course and said it was worth it and everyone should take it if they plan on PvP, or just to have an idea of what PvP is like. I observed on a few occassions and listened in TS, he knows his stuff people. They should sticky this because it answers alot of questions alot of the newer players have. Great job!
Vim Spiritus Draconis	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:24:00 - [24] I'am all for new players into pvp with frigates, noob ships(cough) or cruisers. Teach a noob today see him bring down a battleship tomorrow thats my motto ^_^ /* Teach a noob today watch him takedown a battleship tomorrow... */
Caleb Paine Infinite Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:36:00 - [25] Nice read Rells, very useful. I hope a Mod will move it to Q&A and sticky it. Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Lucifer Fellblade Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:38:00 - [26] Well, I'm a complete newb to EVE, and I admit, I'm interested in something like this, if it is to be believed, I've been on the forums browsing for a while and this post seems to go against most of the other things you hear. Still, it tells that these things are possible but doesn't do much else, I guess thats why Rells mentioned the course so much.
Benglada Finite Auxiliary	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:47:00 - [27] i agree on the physchology thing, i jumped into 3 full pvp fit battleships and two of them warped out (the ones not scrambled) many many times. flashing redness ftw. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Red Ochre	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 20:16:55 Originally by: Tao Han While there are some good tips in here, I cant shake the feeling that this is some kind of recruiting thread? Agony is invite only corp and we dont recruit here. Reading through it i dont know how I could say some things differently. There really is no one else that does training for PvP. not so much recruitment but a plug for their services.......chuckle, very long winded commercial
Nymos Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.08 00:02:00 - [29] excellent post, really clears up alot of myths. the problem with those myths is that other noobs that got wtfpwnt a few times in low-sec or 0.0 give out this wrong advice. i recently had a discussion about the question of what player skills one needs to pvp. he said "isnt it just about the equipment"? no, it's not. unlike in other games, in eve the player skills count the most. knowing when and what to attack, how to attack, how to fly your ship properly, knowing what your and the opponent's ship are capable of, guessing his setup, have an idea about what's going on around you while fighting something in a gang etc etc. that all helps more than all faction gear and t2 ships. most of that comes only with experience, but you'll get there. if you sit there, lock, and hit F1-F8 you'll die... horribly fast. --
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.09.08 00:42:00 - [30] /Sticky this is a great read w valuable info..
Tareen Kashaar eXin Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.08 03:56:00 - [31] Originally by: Nymos edit: @flashing red... i disabled that completely, -5 sec looks like neutral. it doesnt add any valuable information so why even have it on overview? only thing flashing red are war targets and there i think "omg target!!", not "omg run!" :) I have mine to flashing green - same reason :D Excellent post! starts stickification lobby --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.08 04:39:00 - [32] Edited by: Rells on 08/09/2006 04:40:54 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Oh come on unless you blob with frigates you are sitting duck. A blob? Oh you mean a single tech 2 frigtate flown by an experienced pilot can take you out in your tech 2 fitted raven? YOu compare apples to gorillas and try to use it to justify your argument. And as a point of order, the coloquaial usage of "blob" is by a single jock with his nose in the air that just got taken out by a well organized and led gang. You got "blobbed" as you put it because you were STUPID or OUT MANEUVERED. That happens to be called "tactics". Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Please don't tell me a frigate pilot 2 months old has a chance vs my Raven, with tech 2 precision cruise and a faction webber not to mention the 5 tech2 scout drones i got on your arse..... LEts not even get into what happens when I use a smaller tech2 ship decked in tech2 mods. Most agony pilots would refer to you as a "tech 2 pinyata". Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 I mean you are right that there is some basic strategy and set ups, but as a 2 month old pilot you are EXTREMELY limited in your set up options to start with. Yes, people have been saying that since we started pvp university. They get really quiet in local when we send them home in their pod without their 200 million isk tech 2 fitted HAC. Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Can you contribute... yes a very little bit but still contribute, you do need to blob though. Again your usage of "blob." You sound to me like a large ship snob. One of those who think they should auto defeat all players who fly something smaller. Luckily CCP thinks such pilots are foolish as well. Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 You are just missing far to many skills at 2 months to perform well. The difference between tech2 and tech1 is quite huge. We have trial account students that do just fine. Trained players can do a great many things with little equipment but even a char with millions of SP will do horrible if the player controlling him isnt trained. Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Can a blob of 2 month old players in frigates cause some heart ache? Sure but your suggesting you don;t need to blob which is utter nonesense. 2 month old players in frigates are'nt even capable of breaking any decent teh 2 ships tank to be honest....unless they blob. Yes a single frigate cant break the tank of a tech 2 fitted raven. The player age and SP count is irrelevent to this rather amazingly obvious statment. Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 I think it is a great post, it is extremely sugar coated relying on the special circumstances where you can survive with 2 month of sp in a t1 frig. None the less good info, just stretched a bit to far though. Now apply what rells said to a 6 month player and your cooking with gas. We have proved people like you wrong hundreds of times and we will continue to do so. PvP Universtiy has had over 600 students and we are booked so solid that it is amazing. Elitists would like the newbie to be your tackler and water boy. We teach the newbies how to blow the elitists up. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Michiyo Daishi Royal Knights of Khanid	Posted - 2006.09.08 04:59:00 - [33] /request option 1 for STICKY! XD > want a sig like mine? :D
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.08 05:16:00 - [34] "A blob? Oh you mean a single tech 2 frigtate flown by an experienced pilot can take you out in your tech 2 fitted raven? YOu compare apples to gorillas and try to use it to justify your argument. And as a point of order, the coloquaial usage of "blob" is by a single jock with his nose in the air that just got taken out by a well organized and led gang. You got "blobbed" as you put it because you were STUPID or OUT MANEUVERED. That happens to be called "tactics"." Yawn, stop changing your own words. You said 2 month old in a t1 frig. I called your BS, and will put up my rigged up raven with webbers, and t2 precision missles with t2 drones vs your 2 month old t1 frig pilot and win every single time, worst case scenario I warp away. I aknowledged that if it is a small blob of those pilots i could be in trouble yes, BUT YOU SAID NO BLOBING either. Look I am not knocking what your saying but your exxagerating when you make claims like a t1 2 month old SP player can take a solid bigger ship set up to deal with small ships. That was my point. I hate to burst your bubble but people flying t2 fitting ships also know how to pilot, maybe not everyone of them but enough, plus flying can ONLY do so much..... and you know what if your webbed your piloting means JACK SH1T.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.08 05:19:00 - [35] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/09/2006 05:21:04 I agree with everything in this post... its sad to listen to the rookie corp channel and see people getting warned about trying to pvp before they are 6 months old. I hope posts like this help spread the knowledge that Eve is indeed a tactical game where setups matter alot more than skillpoints. Just get out there and lose 50 t1 frigates. That will teach you alot. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.08 05:56:00 - [36] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/09/2006 05:21:04 I agree with everything in this post... its sad to listen to the rookie corp channel and see people getting warned about trying to pvp before they are 6 months old. I hope posts like this help spread the knowledge that Eve is indeed a tactical game where setups matter alot more than skillpoints. Just get out there and lose 50 t1 frigates. That will teach you alot. 20 will do it with good leadership and leave you pretty much invulnerable to single ships. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Colonel Ripper The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.08 06:02:00 - [37] But losing 50 is so much more fun :D Good post, all new players should read it.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.08 06:07:00 - [38] Originally by: Colonel Ripper But losing 50 is so much more fun :D Good post, all new players should read it. I find more than 40 to be unmanageable with disconnects and so on. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Suki Casanave Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.08 06:21:00 - [39] sticky it !!!
Zingu	Posted - 2006.09.08 06:26:00 - [40] I guess another point with the frig gangs would be to gang up a player with high leadership skills, would realy make things go more smoothly I suppose. How good are attached battlecruisers with two, three gang modules in system to these swarms? I can imagine one of the biggest assets of a roaming frig swarm is its mobility and thus a BC would have problems keeping up, well not to mention one lost BC would hurt as much as loosing half the frigate swarm. Think I'll try out your courses once I've managed to secure a couple of jump clones.
Saerid Amarr FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.08 06:33:00 - [41] Edited by: Saerid on 08/09/2006 06:35:56 Too much of a recruiting post even if the material is otherwise good and useful. The tips are OK. Success in pvp seems to be mainly an attitude question in EVE for the new guys. Something along the lines of who dares wins. SP is overemphasized. As for tackling.. you're mixing apples and oranges there. New people aren't asked to tackle because it would be easy or necessary succesful, it just tends to be the lowest SP req niche job in bigger fleets (fleets in this context being mainly battleships and whatever else happens to be needed for support). And it is useful even if the rifters were going pop pop pop every 30 seconds. Which isn't to say there wouldn't be other options relatively early on, just not in the first week or so (EW BBs come to mind. Can get started with relatively few SPs and it'll keep going up in efficiency for a long time with more SP)
Nicocat Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.08 06:49:00 - [42] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/09/2006 05:21:04 I agree with everything in this post... its sad to listen to the rookie corp channel and see people getting warned about trying to pvp before they are 6 months old. I hope posts like this help spread the knowledge that Eve is indeed a tactical game where setups matter alot more than skillpoints. Just get out there and lose 50 t1 frigates. That will teach you alot. looks up from his diet of delicious cruisers 6 months?! Is that what they're telling rookies? ****, if I had to carebear it up for 6 months before I could whomp people, I'd play some random free MMO where level grinding actually dictated in-game 'skill.' I've been murdering people with the aid of my trusty, rusty Cyclone since about 3 months... ---------------------------- The opinions expressed by Nico do not reflect his corporation. He's just an ass. -Alexi Yes, I PvP in a Hookbill. How insane am I? EVE-Mail me and tell me!
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente Does Not Compute	Posted - 2006.09.08 07:05:00 - [43] Great post, A little bit too much self promosion mind. But ** it, He made the post he can self promote if he wants Alliaanna** DNC Treasure Hunt !!
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.08 08:09:00 - [44] If anybody can name one single corp or hell one single person, who has done more to promote PVP or done more to actively try to encourage newer pilots to try it out, I would like to hear it. Here is someone not only dispelling many of the myths cultivated on these forums in order to instill even more fear into inexperienced players(see point in OP about fear and awe) but also offering a proper course and a way to experience it for themselves. Rells is not asking you to like him, but even his greatest detractors have to grant him the respect he deserves. You dont have to fear your enemy but only a fool would fail to respect a dangerous opponent. When you are done with his course you will NOT be granted godlike powers of solo frigate PWNage, thats why they call their course PVP BASIC. You will come away with exactly that: The solid grounding on which to add your experience and the knowledge to avoid MANY of the common mistakes which will get you killed in PVP. It costs 5 mill now, but when you first use those skills to save your 100 mill ship you will understand that 5 mill was dirt cheap. When you save it for the 10th time still using those same tips....well its an investment that continues to pay off. Without a doubt the single best 5 mill I ever invested in EVE. Keep it up agony. Originally by: Posidrive So technically being a pirate is't quite as easy as I thought after reading this guide.
Krexus Amarr Reunited	Posted - 2006.09.08 08:17:00 - [45] The man is right, training and experience willwin over brute force. To OP excellent post it will help newer players in the world of PvP. --------- yes i kill topics They never got me Originally by: Red Knight Your forum-foo is strong
d'hofren Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.08 08:21:00 - [46] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 08/09/2006 05:25:33 "A blob? Oh you mean a single tech 2 frigtate flown by an experienced pilot can take you out in your tech 2 fitted raven? YOu compare apples to gorillas and try to use it to justify your argument. And as a point of order, the coloquaial usage of "blob" is by a single jock with his nose in the air that just got taken out by a well organized and led gang. You got "blobbed" as you put it because you were STUPID or OUT MANEUVERED. That happens to be called "tactics"." Yawn, stop changing your own words. You said 2 month old in a t1 frig. I called your BS, and will put up my rigged up raven with webbers, and t2 precision missles with t2 drones vs your 2 month old t1 frig pilot and win every single time, worst case scenario I warp away. I aknowledged that if it is a small blob of those pilots i could be in trouble yes, BUT YOU SAID NO BLOBING either. Look I am not knocking what your saying but your exxagerating when you make claims like a t1 2 month old SP player can take a solid bigger ship set up to deal with small ships. That was my point. Saying 10 frigs can take a BS is a reasonable claim. I hate to burst your bubble but people flying t2 fitting ships also know how to pilot, maybe not everyone of them but enough, plus flying can ONLY do so much..... and you know what if your webbed your piloting means JACK SH1T. Again great info it just came off to me like you were suggesting 1-2 guys in t1 frigs can pwns vets in decked out t2 ships, which is patently not true if your fighting a well played vet :P a bunch of guys in cheap t1 frigs can rock someone in a 150 mill BS set up or worse. to me 10 on 1 is blobing. I feel it is an aspect that is broke in eve that I think most folks use the phrase blob when the group gets to over 20 or so. less than that tends to be called either a gang or a small fleet. Bellow that it doesn't really show up on the map and as such isn't a "blob". Well, I know thats how it has worked for most folks I have flown with. Also not every t2 ship pilot know how to pilot in a pvp situation. Remember it is quite common to run into someone who has spent the last year flying agent missions in high sec. It seems to me that the best thing about rells courses is that he will help folks over that combat blindness that most folks suffer the first few times. Chop out the covert advertising and I would suggest a sticky.
Oleg K77	Posted - 2006.09.08 08:35:00 - [47] Difference between "fleet"/"squad" and "blob" is quite simple. "We" are the high organized and trained "fleet", "They" are ugly clueless "blob".

Saucerhead Forum Moderator	Posted - 2006.09.08 09:04:00 - [48] While i see lot of useful information in Rell's post, this thread will not be stickied, certainly not in EVE General Discussion, simply because we have to limit amount of stickied threads to keep the forums tidy. What i will do instead is link this thread from New to EVE? [READ ME!] thread in EVE New Citizens Q&A. -- Read the Rules!

Khajit Smitty Minmatar MisFunk Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.08 10:24:00 - [49] good post !! @The Tech2 fitted BS pilot with precision cruise's and T2 light drones - as rells said "T2 pinyata" gonna be xmas when you pop
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.08 10:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Rells "tech 2 pinyata" Originally by: Rells compare apples to gorillas roflcopter ----------
Darineah Charach Minmatar The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:42:00 - [51] Excellent post. Still hoping for an Aussie TZ friendly course, recent events in my corp have only made me hungrier to get better at PVP. ------- Boxing Kangaroo
Schlepperchen	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Rells Myth: The best way to start PvP is to get in a fast frigate, put on a Microwarp drive and a disruptor and go tackle for a bigger ship. This will probably teach you how to die and use your pod but that is about all. A tech 1 frigate with a MWD has the signal radius of a battlecruiser. For those new to Eve, that means that is it EXTREMELY easy to hit you with big guns. Without the MWD, its like a deck gun of a real life destroyer trying to target a Speed Boat. Anyone who tells you to go "tackle" to get into PvP is SERIOUSLY misinformed. On top of that, without exceptionally good skills you wont be able to hold MWD and disruptor on a target for long without running out of capacitor energy; so on top of being suicidal, it is ineffective. A Rifter with a named MWD, small cap battery and cap relays can hold a 15km orbit with more then 2000m/s with a 20km running forever. It will outrun med drones and even med guns will have a problem to hit it below 30km range. I stopped reading your post at this point.
Dupac Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:58:00 - [53] It's a very good post and I'd agree with 90% of it - something I can't say about 90% of posts :( but "Pirates often compound this psychological weapon by being nasty and agressive in local" I wouldn't tar everyone with the same brush - there are quite a number of pirates who don't smack, know what they are doing and are as good in small gangs as any other organisation out there....
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.08 13:01:00 - [54] Originally by: Schlepperchen A Rifter with a named MWD, small cap battery and cap relays can hold a 15km orbit with more then 2000m/s with a 20km running forever. It will outrun med drones and even med guns will have a problem to hit it below 30km range. I stopped reading your post at this point. Did you compute that with max skills or new player skills?
Sever Aldaria Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.08 15:36:00 - [55] Edited by: Sever Aldaria on 08/09/2006 15:42:18 Originally by: Vasiliyan Originally by: Schlepperchen A Rifter with a named MWD, small cap battery and cap relays can hold a 15km orbit with more then 2000m/s with a 20km running forever. It will outrun med drones and even med guns will have a problem to hit it below 30km range. I stopped reading your post at this point. Did you compute that with max skills or new player skills? Not only that, but what about yon theoretical geddon just 40km away from what you're orbiting? Now that you are the size of a battlecruiser and you can't orbit every ship at once, you'll go pop fast and painless. On the other hand, orbiting at 6000m with AB will give you about the same transversal w/out the huge sig radius, cap penalty, or the need to fill up all the rest of your slots with cap mods. Downside? you're in web range if the ship has a web but, then again, you too can web. Then again, orbiting at 500m no AB or mwd you get more transversal velocity than the other but now you're in smartbomb range if the ship has smartbombs but, then again, you too can sma... uhh, yeah.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.08 17:23:00 - [56] Originally by: Vasiliyan Originally by: Schlepperchen A Rifter with a named MWD, small cap battery and cap relays can hold a 15km orbit with more then 2000m/s with a 20km running forever. It will outrun med drones and even med guns will have a problem to hit it below 30km range. I stopped reading your post at this point. Did you compute that with max skills or new player skills? Not likely. Just the MWD takes a bit of time to get itself. Tack on the other engineering you need to make this go and you have a 1 to 2 month char, not counting learning skills. I could accomplish this (though I dislike suicide) but your average new player couldnt. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.09.08 17:33:00 - [57] Edited by: Death Kill on 08/09/2006 17:35:08 It might not be recruitment, but its the worst 'pat on the back' I have ever seen. Pity the law of 'jante' isnt wider known. Recruitment
Gabriel Kain	Posted - 2006.09.08 17:38:00 - [58] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 20:21:23 Myth: All you have to do to PvP is to press F1 - F8. Totally untrue. PvP in Eve is incredibly complex, to the point of making other games look just plain silly. Everything from how you set up your ship to how to fly it in combat is a science. Players that think PvP is just aobut hitting keys die very fast when confronted by experienced pvpers. True. Sadly all this science about fittings and flying techniques is only related to how you press f1-f8 which is in fact all you have to do.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.08 19:24:00 - [59] Originally by: Gabriel Kain Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 07/09/2006 20:21:23 Myth: All you have to do to PvP is to press F1 - F8. Totally untrue. PvP in Eve is incredibly complex, to the point of making other games look just plain silly. Everything from how you set up your ship to how to fly it in combat is a science. Players that think PvP is just aobut hitting keys die very fast when confronted by experienced pvpers. True. Sadly all this science about fittings and flying techniques is only related to how you press f1-f8 which is in fact all you have to do. Very very untrue. Stop flying with gank squads in "gank or flee" fleets and actually think tactically and strategically. You will find that in actuality you couldnt be more wrong if you tried. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Kaar Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.09.09 02:16:00 - [60] Originally by: Rells Very very untrue. Stop flying with gank squads in "gank or flee" fleets and actually think tactically and strategically. ROFL oh Rells you do make me laugh. --- ---
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.09 03:08:00 - [61] Well I suppose every good thread has to get trolled eventually. sigh Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.09 06:19:00 - [62] Originally by: Rells Well I suppose every good thread has to get trolled eventually. sigh Eventually? I think you missed Nanobotter's posts. Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when backdoor bandit is in local.
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.09 07:49:00 - [63] Originally by: Rells Well I suppose every ~~good~~ thread has to get trolled eventually. sigh
Lucian Sulla	Posted - 2006.09.09 09:11:00 - [64] I think you're confusing skill with a herd of angry lemmings. Give me thirty three-day old players, equip them with griffins and a multispec jammer, and I can take down anything in the game. Are swarm tactics effective? You Bet! Do you need a lot of skill points and money to be effective in PvP? Nope, just need 29 other noobs. Does blowing up a battle ship make you a skilled player? No, it just means that it took 30 of you to do the job of one real player. Look, Agony is basically like a bunch of New York City*****roaches. They're small and gross, and make a crunchy sound when you step on them. Unfortunately, they breed like crazy, so there's not much a person can do against the horde. Just remember, these guys also have no idea how to fight 1vs1, so if you catch one alone, squash him good! Make sure you wipe the gooey stuff off your feet afterwards though, that junk will stain the carpet.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.10 07:26:00 - [65] Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Rells Well I suppose every good thread has to get trolled eventually. sigh Eventually? I think you missed Nanobotter's posts. No I replied to him. Anyway. I hope the post helps some people out and people ignore the sillyness. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.09.10 12:12:00 - [66] Originally by: Rells Well I suppose every good thread has to get trolled eventually Myth: Trolls are dangerous creatures Unlike common sense implies, they are rather harmless. They get nasty only if you start feeding them. So, should you want to take care of your threads, you gotta ignore derailing comments about your sister, and just focus on meaningfull posts. As even Nanobotter noted, great post despite the marketspeak. Every new fellow you encourage to go out there is a valuable tarH^H^H addition to our complex community. -Lasse P.S. And as related anecdote, every now and then we get fights were boths sides feel they won and had a good fight -> Eve at the best.
Kindakrof Caldari Cruor Frater Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2006.09.10 13:08:00 - [67] Actually, about that pirate and fear thing is totally wrong. A flashing red pirate does not use fear as his primary weapon. After you get down to -5 there is a button in the menu you can set it to 'Easy' That's how pirates win. --- --- --- my sig is pr0 Thanks for the lemon
RuleoftheBone	Posted - 2006.09.11 08:57:00 - [68] Trolls, silly/uninformed posts, and ship config arguing aside the OP actually has made a very useful post for us newer players. In fact I am seriously contemplating taking the course if Rells would not mind clarifying a few things: 1-While being new to EvE I have had the opportunity for a bit of PvP...in one case completely unplanned and resulting in the quick popping of my ship by a very skilled and overpowering pirate. In reading through your post and visiting your website it appears that your course is emphasizing flotilla-level/co-operative ganged tactics...is this correct? 2-Coming from a flight sim background (Janes series, Commanche-v-Hokum, FIV, etc etc) I fail to see how ACM is really implemented ingame. The way I have seen things this far maneuvers are really limited to "orbit at x", "approach", and click around space to change direction. It seems to me that individual combat is restricted to rock-paper-scissors modified by the skill attributes of the combatants.....is this a correct statement for me to make and how does your course work around these limitations? 3-It also appears that your course has the emphasis on teaching group battle tactics and overcoming the "fear" that folks might feel at risking thier virtual butts....what do you offer players who are already comfortable working in a team environment and already have a "virtual" instinct for going head-to-head where appropriate? Again...thanks for a useful post and look forward to your response. Bone
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.11 19:36:00 - [69] Originally by: RuleoftheBone 1-While being new to EvE I have had the opportunity for a bit of PvP...in one case completely unplanned and resulting in the quick popping of my ship by a very skilled and overpowering pirate. In reading through your post and visiting your website it appears that your course is emphasizing flotilla-level/co-operative ganged tactics...is this correct? PvP in Eve is best done as a team sport. AGONY pvps in small groups quite often but we teach the students initially to work in a gang and the class gangs are sometimes rather large. The impact of pvp basic is designed to be psychological as well as tactical. We want the students to lose their fear of 0.0 and thus some engagements are a bit overkill. However there have been hectic, fleet clash and multiship engagements in class times and occasionally murphy will intervene and part of the class will get killed. We warn students attending that pvp is dangerous and there is a high chance of ending up in your clone bay. But if you do, we will collect you, get you back up to speed and out for revenge. Originally by: RuleoftheBone 2-Coming from a flight sim background (Janes series, Commanche-v-Hokum, FIV, etc etc) I fail to see how ACM is really implemented ingame. The way I have seen things this far maneuvers are really limited to "orbit at x", "approach", and click around space to change direction. It seems to me that individual combat is restricted to rock-paper-scissors modified by the skill attributes of the combatants.....is this a correct statement for me to make and how does your course work around these limitations? Nope. Eve combat is extremeley deep an detailed. It is tactical in nature rather than being focused on reflexes. However, some level of reflexes are involved. In basic we try to boil it down so students find they can handle the flow of tasks to be done. There are sometimes dozens of things to do in a very short timespan. Eve combat is the most deep combat I have seen in 15+ years of gameplay in pvp games. Originally by: RuleoftheBone 3-It also appears that your course has the emphasis on teaching group battle tactics and overcoming the "fear" that folks might feel at risking thier virtual butts....what do you offer players who are already comfortable working in a team environment and already have a "virtual" instinct for going head-to-head where appropriate? There is a lot of training you need to be effective in PvP. You can spend the next 2 years learning the hard and expensive way and you will get there. We can shortcut that process and get you there a lot quicker. AGONY corp pilots are relatively young as eve pilots go but they are quite good at pvp because of this shortcutting. Training, tactical combat with light ships and PvP in general are our specialties. Originally by: RuleoftheBone Again...thanks for a useful post and look forward to your response. Bone NP. =) Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.11 20:28:00 - [70] Heh, still all boils down to using large numbers in cheap ships to beat solo players...not my idea of competitive PVP, nor does it alter the fact your not really competing with the high sp expensive ship player you and your 15 friends in frigs pwned. I mean it is accurate and can be done, but it isnt remotely the same as saying you can compete with a high sp player in a decked out ship. I mean Your message seemed to be hey your 2 months old got a t1 frig and very little SP, don;t worry about pvp just learn to fly and go out and wtfpwn people! You don't support that, instead it is get 15 other new players and if you all can fly go pwn solo vets....which is fine but something completely different. I think alot of people think of PVP as player vs player, me vs you, my group vs your group, my corp vs your corp and not many people think of 20 on 1 gang bangs :P
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.11 20:57:00 - [71] "Question: How is it that pirates attack multiple ships while solo and come out on top? Are they just really good or something? Not really. Pirates cultivate an image of evil and fear and this is their major weapon. When a pirate warps into a belt of 10 ratting ships, he is generally counting on most of them running from his bright red flashing line in the overview. Flashing red is a primordial signal of danger and triggers flight reflexes in many people. The skull reinforces this for a bountied player. If those players in a belt had actually all ganged the pirate, he probably would have lost. Change your pirates to flash another color such as green and watch how that changes your fear response. Pirates often compound this psychological weapon by being nasty and agressive in local, this leads to feelings of inferiority and rage and many people attack them in a "holy war" of rage. A pirate encountered by a competent gang commander who stays calm and ignores local will be a dead pirate." This tip is so true. I used to steer clear of ratting groups, didnt want to be outnumbered, etc. But more often then not, you warp in, and the group scatters, leaving the one poor soul you netted with your warp scram. When the inverse happens, you warp in on someone, and all his friends immediately warp to the belt to help, you know its time to withdraw. Also, nice business idea you have there. Its things like this that make EVE great. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Gustavef Minmatar International Multi-Player Consortium	Posted - 2006.09.11 23:01:00 - [72] Speaking as a recent participant of their basic class, I would re-emphisize that the class is "basic." However, it does does give inexperience pilots two very important lessons: 1) It changes the idea of "If I go to 0.0 I WILL die" to "If I go to 0.0, I could get podded, but I can control a decent amount of the situation and get out with minimal losses" 2) Know how to use what you have is more important then just having the best stuff. I have to give Agony and Rells credit. By offering open training to anyone who desires, their organization is getting more people interesting in PvP. If even half of the players that go though their courses turn in to active PvPers (the other half at least learned how to survive PvP) that means more people who will stand and fight. (and loose their ships and have to buy new one to support us Empire Industrial Carebears ) -gustavef
Winter QC Amarr Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.09.12 01:24:00 - [73] Great post.
Skraelingz Gallente Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2006.09.12 03:31:00 - [74] Since when is superior numbers in a military engangement not a tactic... vive la blob! -----------------------------------------------
Eternal Fire	Posted - 2006.09.12 06:25:00 - [75] this is really just a long care bear loving, newbie hugging, pirate bashing, frigate obsessed post. now I have to thow up.
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.12 07:48:00 - [76] Originally by: Schlepperchen Originally by: Rells Myth: The best way to start PvP is to get in a fast frigate, put on a Microwarp drive and a disruptor and go tackle for a bigger ship. This will probably teach you how to die and use your pod but that is about all. A tech 1 frigate with a MWD has the signal radius of a battlecruiser. For those new to Eve, that means that is it EXTREMELY easy to hit you with big guns. Without the MWD, its like a deck gun of a real life destroyer trying to target a Speed Boat. Anyone who tells you to go "tackle" to get into PvP is SERIOUSLY misinformed. On top of that, without exceptionally good skills you wont be able to hold MWD and disruptor on a target for long without running out of capacitor energy; so on top of being suicidal, it is ineffective. A Rifter with a named MWD, small cap battery and cap relays can hold a 15km orbit with more then 2000m/s with a 20km running forever. It will outrun med drones and even med guns will have a problem to hit it below 30km range. I stopped reading your post at this point. You not gonna outrun my warrior II's. They eat interceptors. And 15km is still 10km inside NOS range Originally by: Posidrive So technically being a pirate is't quite as easy as I thought after reading this guide.
Firequill Gallente The Black Ops	Posted - 2006.09.12 09:59:00 - [77] Originally by: RuleoftheBone The way I have seen things this far maneuvers are really limited to "orbit at x", "approach", and click around space to change direction. It seems to me that individual combat is restricted to rock-paper-scissors modified by the skill attributes of the combatants.....is this a correct statement for me to make? You are only mentioning the execution of battle.. Consider this: 50% of the battles are decided when you are in the hangar, loading out. This is the stage where you plan the bulk of the battle. 40% is decided choosing the enemy/field of battle. This is where the tactics part comes in, using the scanner appropriately, having scouts, being aware and prepared etc. 9% is played out by blind luck, as in, unforeseen things can always happen. (f.o.i you could get your shiny interceptor caught on a roid when you warp in, and getting it turned to dust when odds were in your favor. And NOW the final 1 % !! Execution! Thats right, the button-pushing. the last percentage is dependent on wether or not you can time the f1-f8 correctly. And ironically enough, the final percentage is the hardest to overcome for most players. The tip to start pvp-ing by tackling is and always has been a good way to lessen that last "obstacle", de-sensitizing the pilot! (throwing him headfirst into the frontlines) Im referring to, Fear, doubt, Shaking hands.. and general jitters, which Will bring all the other components of the battle to a grinding halt and get you (and possibly others)killed! If this course that rells is more or less covertly advocating will help anyone on their way to becoming what they wish, then so be it. But i feel as i always have about such things: That the most efficient, loyal, ruthless and compassionate teacher you could ever hope for is the one staring back at you in the mirror! All but the last percentage of a battle can be taught and learned. The last must be Conquered! By you and You alone! Well, my frame of mind on the subject anyway, it has served me well.
RuleoftheBone	Posted - 2006.09.13 13:06:00 - [78] Thanks for the replies Rells and Firequill. I have a couple more comments though based on your responses-specifically: "Eve combat is extremeley deep an detailed. It is tactical in nature rather than being focused on reflexes. However, some level of reflexes are involved. In basic we try to boil it down so students find they can handle the flow of tasks to be done. There are sometimes dozens of things to do in a very short timespan. Eve combat is the most deep combat I have seen in 15+ years of gameplay in pvp games." Rells Err...with all due respect I am going to have to disagree with you there in a couple of aspects. While the nature of SHIP SETUP is very complex individual ship flying and combat tactics are not modeled-or rather modeled in a FUN way. While it may not be a fair comparison there is a big difference between EvE combat and "realistic" combat sims (i.e. Falcon IV, Steel Beasts, IL-2, Silent Hunter III, I-War etc) where one is required to monitor multiple MFD's(multifunction displays..usually with buckets of sub pages) and actually fly/drive the aircraft/tank/sub within the realms and limitations of "realistic" sim physics. It's even tougher in IL-2 where with realism cranked you don't have the "radars/sensors" etc and just use the old Mark I eyeball and the joystick hat to pan. Or computing a maual firing solution in SHIII. Or trying to overcome vector physics in I-War...just to name a few examples. Its all good....but there is no real ACM in EvE and it appears to come down to proper ship fitting, pilot skill levels, and team tactics. But then again I am a boring old grognard at heart . Also...from Firequill: "50% of the battles are decided when you are in the hangar, loading out.This is the stage where you plan the bulk of the battle." Again...with respect to you this does confirm the rock-paper-scissors model of combat in EvE. Having said that this is the very tricky part of EvE with the endless combinations of weapons/mods and ship types. It is way easier to load out an IL-2...or an F-16 for that matter...BUT-and a big but-there is no RTB (return to base) option when bounced over target--ya just gotta fight with what you bring or run away if you can....as opposed to the "I gotta dock and change out my NOS for AC's" EvE approach. Again....comparing "realistic" sims to EvE is very unfair on my part. Again...cheers for the answers from both of you and I more than likely will sign up for the course anyway as I am not really interested in the big ships in EvE (I am heading down the interceptor/covert ops route) and I want to learn to get the most from my Rifter/Thrasher in PvP situations. Bone out.......
Sever Aldaria Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.13 14:35:00 - [79] Edited by: Sever Aldaria on 13/09/2006 14:34:55 Originally by: RuleoftheBone I am heading down the interceptor[...] route You'll find yourself using some ACM when you get into those then. When you're flying 4+ km/s just using "approach" and "orbit" doesn't always cut it.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.13 16:06:00 - [80] Edited by: James Lyrus on 13/09/2006 16:09:46 Originally by: Skraelingz Since when is superior numbers in a military engangement not a tactic... vive la blob! It's never been a tactic. It's a strategy :). AGONY's PvP-BASIC I've heard good things about. Just a shame the ROE is pretty much contradictory to the ISS Charter. I'd also add that 0.0/PvP is nothing at all to do with skillpoints, and only partially to do with training. The real key is attitude. Are you prepared to risk what you've got, and hope on balance you come out ahead. I have seen characters under a month old, PvPing, living in 0.0 full time, and generally having a blast. I've seen characters 3 years old, that have never even been into lowsec. What the training does, aside from a bit of the strategy and tactics of PvP, is to let you control the totally immmense adrenaline rush you get.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.17 06:33:00 - [81] Originally by: James Lyrus I'd also add that 0.0/PvP is nothing at all to do with skillpoints, and only partially to do with training. The real key is attitude. Are you prepared to risk what you've got, and hope on balance you come out ahead. I would disagree. You training is 70% of pvp and it comes with the desire to pvp. The other 30% is not being risk adverse. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
codepic Mithril Inc Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.17 09:13:00 - [82] Originally by: Rells Myth: The best way to start PvP is to get in a fast frigate, put on a Microwarp drive and a disruptor and go tackle for a bigger ship. This will probably teach you how to die and use your pod but that is about all. A tech 1 frigate with a MWD has the signal radius of a battlecruiser. For those new to Eve, that means that is it EXTREMELY easy to hit you with big guns. Without the MWD, its like a deck gun of a real life destroyer trying to target a Speed Boat. Anyone who tells you to go "tackle" to get into PvP is SERIOUSLY misinformed. On top of that, without exceptionally good skills you wont be able to hold MWD and disruptor on a target for long without running out of capacitor energy; so on top of being suicidal, it is ineffective. Truth: The best way to start PvP is to get in a tackler-frigate You will learn the basics of signature radius, transversal velocity, locking times, orbiting ranges and what not in a tackling frigate You will not risk your whole wealth. PvP is fun only if you can afford loosing what you're flying. It also teaches from day 1 to do the risk assesment right... You don't keep MWD on ALL the time. Usually one cycle is enough to get close enough the target and start orbiting, after which the MWD is turned off... This will teach the right usage of MWD and also teach the basics of how MWD affects sig radius If a frigate starts taking damage, it warps to the closes celestial object or safespot, repairs itself during the warp and returns into the field to tackle the hostile. If a fleet has enough tacklers, they can do this constantly without loosing a single tackler. This will teach the new players how to save your ship in a tight situation, still without risk of loosing all your wealth. This information WILL prove valuable later on. And is effective. And if the tackler delays even 1 second before locking the primary/secondary, he will avoid the default "auto target back 1 targets" effect and will not be locked. Although, if a gang is properly set up, everyone should have this feature set to 0. It is BY FAR the best way to start with PvP. Period.
DemonStar Supernova Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2006.09.17 09:45:00 - [83] I only have one rule of PvP. Never ever hold back on your setup. You may be flying a more expensive ship, but those t2 guns and factional hardeners are the one thing that may give you an active edge in a battle. I dont know about you, but id rather side on the chance of a killmail than having some spare isk in my wallet when my oponent is scooping up my corpse. That being said, buy a group of ships strictly for PvP. Fit them well, and plan to lose them because you eventually will. I own 2 megas for this reason exactly, not to mention a small fleet of AF's and cruisers. You still stand to lose ISK, but you can never hit rock bottom. Plus, buying a ship that you've already doomed to destruction makes it that much easier to take into a fight in the first place, you already know what its meant for.
Savio	Posted - 2006.09.17 10:41:00 - [84] Good post :) tnx for the tips!
Zaldo Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.17 11:21:00 - [85] A sticky for this one pls Mining all day ^^
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.02 09:26:00 - [86] Originally by: DemonStar Supernova I only have one rule of PvP. Never ever hold back on your setup. You may be flying a more expensive ship, but those t2 guns and factional hardeners are the one thing that may give you an active edge in a battle. I dont know about you, but id rather side on the chance of a killmail than having some spare isk in my wallet when my oponent is scooping up my corpse. That being said, buy a group of ships strictly for PvP. Fit them well, and plan to lose them because you eventually will. I own 2 megas for this reason exactly, not to mention a small fleet of AF's and cruisers. You still stand to lose ISK, but you can never hit rock bottom. Plus, buying a ship that you've already doomed to destruction makes it that much easier to take into a fight in the first place, you already know what its meant for. This is bad advice for anyone new to pvp and great advice to give by people looking to prey on those newbies. Keep it cheap, get freinds and get training. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
xahldera Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.09 01:13:00 - [87] I wish I could agree to some of the above, but the fact of the matter is that there will always be those players who will beat you hands down in a PvP fight, no matter how hard you try. This is not to discourage anyone wanting to go out and fight PvP, this is just a warning that there are hardcore players out there who do nothing except play video games and have no life outside of it. So be prepared to be beat even if you follow the above advice to the letter. Xahldera I once saw a Megathron on escrow that was actually a piece of megacyte. -User on Corp Chatroom
Sovy Kurosei Amarr Therianthropic Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.09 01:49:00 - [88] Why is it that people are so inflammatory against Rells whenever he makes a new thread? Same thing happened in that one thread when a class of fourteen engaged a battleship and managed to take it out even when his friends warped in to assist. ___________________
Illistar DeathWing	Posted - 2006.10.09 02:40:00 - [89] I would love to go to one of these, but right now I'm struggling to get enough money to buy skill books let alone blow 5 mil for a few hours course. You have to relise that to new people that is alot of money. On top of that you want them to take many pre-req courses to get into the one they want.
MeGrand Gallente Thunder Talons	Posted - 2006.10.09 04:37:00 - [90] first off regrads for the longest decently wirtten post in ages decent advice too - even if it does read like a recuirtment add All the right letters - just not nessacarily in the right order
Christina Vallentine Caldari Tau Ceti Global Production Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.09 05:07:00 - [91] Edited by: Christina Vallentine on 09/10/2006 05:08:37 I just saw this post now, and you know what. It is one of the first posts I have seen that didn't make me feel like I should just train and not even bother to log in for the next few months because there is nothing I can do but suck around all of you vets. You guys with your un-question marked avatars might not understand this, but this game is very intimidating at first. I have had 3 friends come to play this game because I asked them to try it out. They all left after reading these forums and getting discouraged and intimidated. >_< so thank you for being cool Rells, I appreciate it.
Soporo	Posted - 2006.10.09 06:11:00 - [92] Edited by: Soporo on 09/10/2006 06:12:18 Nods /signed Also... Quote: this is really just a long care bear loving, newbie hugging, pirate bashing, frigate obsessed post. *****s up Tell us how you REALLLLY feel sometime.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.09 19:02:00 - [93] Originally by: Illistar DeathWing I would love to go to one of these, but right now I'm struggling to get enough money to buy skill books let alone blow 5 mil for a few hours course. You have to relise that to new people that is alot of money. On top of that you want them to take many pre-req courses to get into the one they want. Well you are probably going about making money the wrong way. 5 mil can be made in a couple of weeks even by a total newbie. Come talk to us for advice on this. As for the prerequisite courses, they are necessary. Believe me when I say we will have you busy for 5 to 9 hours and you will feel like you are "drinking from a firehose" as one of my instructors put it. Originally by: Christina Vallentine Edited by: Christina Vallentine on 09/10/2006 05:08:37 I just saw this post now, and you know what. It is one of the first posts I have seen that didn't make me feel like I should just train and not even bother to log in for the next few months because there is nothing I can do but suck around all of you vets. You guys with your un-question marked avatars might not understand this, but this game is very intimidating at first. I have had 3 friends come to play this game because I asked them to try it out. They all left after reading these forums and getting discouraged and intimidated. >_< so thank you for being cool Rells, I appreciate it. My pleasure. I hope it helps. Join our channel AU_PVP_UNIVERSITY if you have more questions. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.09 19:03:00 - [94] Originally by: Soporo Edited by: Soporo on 09/10/2006 06:12:18 Nods /signed Also... Quote: this is really just a long care bear loving, newbie hugging, pirate bashing, frigate obsessed post. *****s up Tell us how you REALLLLY feel sometime. There are very few people (amoung those that like or dislike me) that would call me a carebear. The posts do get a laugh from my corporation members though. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Novan Leon	Posted - 2006.10.09 21:15:00 - [95] Great informational post. I need to come over to Syndicate and try out my T1 drone frigate against your alumni. T1 drone frigate config still in process
zeKzn Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.10.09 21:35:00 - [96] wrong forum on which to ask, yes, but are students required to have a mic and/or talk on vent or just listen? ____ Itty-Bitty Crow <3
Beor0d Congregatio	Posted - 2006.10.09 22:02:00 - [97] I like the post, shows up that you can survive and have some fun in pvp even if you are not 10 mill + SP char or whatever :) I like the idea of recruiting players for pvp. Never heared of that _______________________ Mining makes mad
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.09 22:23:00 - [98] Originally by: zeKzn wrong forum on which to ask, yes, but are students required to have a mic and/or talk on vent or just listen? Havign a Mic is good but you at LEAST need to be able to hear. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2006.10.09 22:30:00 - [99] Originally by: Rells Originally by: zeKzn wrong forum on which to ask, yes, but are students required to have a mic and/or talk on vent or just listen? Havign a Mic is good but you at LEAST need to be able to hear. Discrimination against deaf people???? Even in Iceland thats illegal only kidding
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.09 23:32:00 - [100] So I have a question Rells- What sort of training is available from AU that will allow a "noob" player/character to compete directly with older more experienced players flying T2 fitted ships, HACs etc. Explain to me how SP and ISK are a non-factor for the majority of PVP engagements in Eve. Enlighten me as to the proper training and combat techniques that will allow players to engage targets of superior size and firepower and still come out ahead given an equal number of opponents on each side. It doesn't seem to me that you're teaching sustainable long term tactics and techniques that can be employed outside of a 10 man ECM Frigate gang. In my opinion you come off like a used car salesman. For those that don't know any better and who can't tell the difference I'm sure your customers are amazed and astounded with the results you can achieve with an experienced fleet commander and what basically amounts to a swarm of oversized drones with which to attack a target. Because I said so...
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.10 01:36:00 - [101] Of course this guy is not being serious and actually just trying to be sarcastic but dont let folk like them get you down. Lets answer him just for fun. Originally by: murder one So I have a question Rells- What sort of training is available from AU that will allow a "noob" player/character to compete directly with older more experienced players flying T2 fitted ships, HACs etc. Explain to me how SP and ISK are a non-factor for the majority of PVP engagements in Eve. Player knowledge is the key to this game. You could take a group of 5 frigates vs 5 other frigates and the people that will come out on top will be those with training in pvp that know how to fit, fly and use their ships properly. Its the difference between a 10 man frig gang that blows up the dominix and the 10 man frig gang that gets munched by the same dominix. What you have trained up means nothing if you dont know how to use it. I couldnt possibly count the number of idiotic setups I have seen in the game for a starters. Interceptors with warp core stabs, Amarr ships using projectile guns, and the old favorite suicide ship ... "a fast frig with a microwarp and warp disruptor" The problem with eve is that there are a lot of "older" players that would love to havethe new players be their cannon fodder waterboys and have no desire to learn. There are also a lot of o"older" players that have been around a year or two and just plain have no clue. How many smartbombers have come after an agony gang? Answer 15. How many have died? Answer 14 (one lived only because a mistake was made and he was stabbed to the wazu). All of these people were battleship pilots with lots of "experience" that didnt have the brains to realize that their tactic was futile. Originally by: murder one Enlighten me as to the proper training and combat techniques that will allow players to engage targets of superior size and firepower and still come out ahead given an equal number of opponents on each side. OK. www.agony-unleashed.com I think there is a free PVP-BASIC slot in about a month. Im a business man. I train people to fight people. Im not giving away the info for free. Originally by: murder one It doesn't seem to me that you're teaching sustainable long term tactics and techniques that can be employed outside of a 10 man ECM Frigate gang. Sustainable? What isnt sustainable about flying tech 1 frigs and destroyers? At any rate you make a classic mistake, well I doubt YOU do but you want your opponets to. You advocate that an engagement is only "real" if its 15 to 15 or 5 to 5 or something like that. That is rubbish. In a combat situation, you pick the engagements you can win and decline those you cant win. Combat isnt fair and I doubt many of my clients are interested in beign "fair" with the pirates or the opposing alliance. Originally by: murder one In my opinion you come off like a used car salesman. LOL ... Originally by: murder one For those that don't know any better and who can't tell the difference I'm sure your customers are amazed and astounded with the results you can achieve with an experienced fleet commander and what basically amounts to a swarm of oversized drones with which to attack a target. I train them. I dont toss them in a frig, say do what I say, and fly off. They get 5 hours of instruction and often more than 7 hours wolfpack time. They ask questions, get answers, learn why and what and where of combat. They leave the course much much more capable than they came. Any PVP-WOLFPACKS graduate can execute maneuvers with gangs that will tear pirates to ribbons and teach enemies that a frigate / destroyer gang is to be feared, not laughed at. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.10 01:42:00 - [102] Originally by: Gloria Stitz Originally by: Rells Originally by: zeKzn wrong forum on which to ask, yes, but are students required to have a mic and/or talk on vent or just listen? Havign a Mic is good but you at LEAST need to be able to hear. Discrimination against deaf people???? Even in Iceland thats illegal only kidding Yeah, I call primaries in braille. Get with the times Rells.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.10 05:39:00 - [103] Just to reply to your reply Rells (I'm not going to waste everyone's time re-quoting everything) - I guess I came off a little harsh, but I think that you should also educate new players about the realities of "end-game" PVP, not just what you can do using a limited SP set and the minimum of equipment. They need to understand that there isn't a viable substitute for SP, ISK and experience, all other factors (manpower) being equal. I totally agree with picking your battles, and I also agree that there are plenty of people out there with absolutely horrible setups. I'm happy to see that you're taking an interest in new players well beings, if at a price, but I think it would be more genuine if you'd temper your amazing tales of PVP dominance with some information concerning the realistic limitations of what you can and can't do. You keep mentioning your groups are killing battleships. Ok, that's fine, but any experienced PVPer isn't particularly impressed with that since they understand the game mechanics and therefore realize how the current game balance can be horribly exploited to make killing a BS with a bunch of Frigs a veritable cakewalk. What if the 15 man Frig gang encountered a nice 6 man cruiser gang? Of course you'd probably never engage such a target as I'm sure you'd realize that there is a very good chance you might get shredded and ruin your kill record. All I'm saying is that you paint too good of a picture to people who don't even have enough information to start asking the right questions. So ya, ends up sounding like you're selling snake oil. Because I said so...
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.10.10 05:43:00 - [104] agony do their thing of course a 6 man cruiser gang would probably roaster toaster a 15 man noobie PVP frig gang then again thats the way the game works so its all moot pretty much
Xs 142	Posted - 2006.10.10 07:08:00 - [105] Ohh, the booksmart man is making me feel jiggly in the brainbox! Thank you. Originally by: Oveur Eternally yours, The other dumbass
Novan Leon	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:43:00 - [106] Originally by: murder one Just to reply to your reply Rells (I'm not going to waste everyone's time re-quoting everything) - I guess I came off a little harsh, but I think that you should also educate new players about the realities of "end-game" PVP, not just what you can do using a limited SP set and the minimum of equipment. They need to understand that there isn't a viable substitute for SP, ISK and experience, all other factors (manpower) being equal. I totally agree with picking your battles, and I also agree that there are plenty of people out there with absolutely horrible setups. I'm happy to see that you're taking an interest in new players well beings, if at a price, but I think it would be more genuine if you'd temper your amazing tales of PVP dominance with some information concerning the realistic limitations of what you can and can't do. You keep mentioning your groups are killing battleships. Ok, that's fine, but any experienced PVPer isn't particularly impressed with that since they understand the game mechanics and therefore realize how the current game balance can be horribly exploited to make killing a BS with a bunch of Frigs a veritable cakewalk. What if the 15 man Frig gang encountered a nice 6 man cruiser gang? Of course you'd probably never engage such a target as I'm sure you'd realize that there is a very good chance you might get shredded and ruin your kill record. All I'm saying is that you paint too good of a picture to people who don't even have enough information to start asking the right questions. So ya, ends up sounding like you're selling snake oil. This is one of the reasons the OP sounds like a recruiting advertisement, it sounds too good to be true, especially for us that understand the basic principle of warfare in EVE. Yes, frigates are fun to fly and can be used effectively in groups against much larger targets, but I think maybe you're building them up to sound like more than they are. Do you offer any classes on cruiser or battleship warfare?
Mark Weston Caldari The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.10 14:07:00 - [107] Edited by: Mark Weston on 10/10/2006 14:07:12 Originally by: Novan Leon This is one of the reasons the OP sounds like a recruiting advertisement, it sounds too good to be true, especially for us that understand the basic principle of warfare in EVE. Yes, frigates are fun to fly and can be used effectively in groups against much larger targets, but I think maybe you're building them up to sound like more than they are. The problem is that it's easy for newer players to feel helpless in the face of high SP characters and tech2 kit. The OP (and AUs courses) are a really valuable counterpoint to that atitude (often reinforced by those "that understand the basic principle of warfare in EVE"). The new PvPer in EVE can have fun and can win fights. New to EVE? Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
KIATolon Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.10 14:54:00 - [108] Rells, great post and you know I have a lot of respect for you but I strongly disagree with what you think about frig tackling. If you tackle enough in a rifter then you learn how to stay alive, and when you can stay alive in a rifter whilst tackling then you'll find have overcome a huge hurdle in pvp. 1) losing ships wont be an issue 2) you wont panic because your screen lights up red (most decent tacklers are getting shot at by half the fleet). You have your way of teaching I guess, and others have theirs - but please dont dismiss other people as wrong. The best pvpers in omega are almost all, the best frigate pilots... they got that way by learning how to tackle... now I know that judging your students is not necessarily a fair comparison but I've faught 30 members of your corp with 10 of ours whilst fighting 8 bs/hacs at the same time (you warped in on us :( ) and won... because our frig pilots are generally unshakeable and tough to kill. btw "I" dont count, I die whenever I get into a frig, even if it's docked :(
Novan Leon	Posted - 2006.10.10 17:02:00 - [109] Originally by: KIATolon Rells, great post and you know I have a lot of respect for you but I strongly disagree with what you think about frig tackling. If you tackle enough in a rifter then you learn how to stay alive, and when you can stay alive in a rifter whilst tackling then you'll find have overcome a huge hurdle in pvp. 1) losing ships wont be an issue 2) you wont panic because your screen lights up red (most decent tacklers are getting shot at by half the fleet). You have your way of teaching I guess, and others have theirs - but please dont dismiss other people as wrong. The best pvpers in omega are almost all, the best frigate pilots... they got that way by learning how to tackle... now I know that judging your students is not necessarily a fair comparison but I've faught 30 members of your corp with 10 of ours whilst fighting 8 bs/hacs at the same time (you warped in on us :( ) and won... because our frig pilots are generally unshakeable and tough to kill. btw "I" dont count, I die whenever I get into a frig, even if it's docked :( 10 frigates vs 8 battleships/heavy assault cruisters + 22 other and the 10 frigates won?
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.10 17:13:00 - [110] I signed up for a class and I'm happy I did. Look. PvP is mainly about attitude and conditioning. You need a tough mental attitude, and you need to undock with the mindset that you'll be docking in a pod (or as a clone.) I go out there every chance I get. It's not just for the pleasure. Each time I go out, I get more desensitized. I used to freeze up when I saw flashy red, now it's just another indicator. As you learn, your confidence goes up, your mental toughness goes up. It's almost irrelevant whether the teacher is a good PVPer or not. Just getting a number of new players together in a gang, in ships they intent to lose, into lowsec....that's what really empowers the new player. Every new player should be taking these classes, or similar classes. Every new player should be in some kind of Academy or University or some kind of PVP intro class, just for the confidence that comes from having fired your guns at someone in anger. Flying a cheap frigate like a condor or slasher or atron or executioner, as a tackler, with low sp clone, is the cheapest and best way to learn PVP bar none. Those small ships are so fast, you just stick an afterburner on em and they haul arse, they're like mini-interceptors. I flew my first battle in a Slasher vs pirates, in fact that Slasher survived 3 battles, then I had about another half dozen battles in a Rifter before I lost it. It was fun and educational and didn't cost me anything (the frigs were free.) IMHO every new player should take that route. Go. Take the classes. Sign up for academy corps. Tackle tackle tackle. Lose a few ships. Lose a clone or two. That's how you learn.
Sinnbad Mayhem	Posted - 2006.10.10 17:56:00 - [111] Excellent suggestions but I have a couple suggestions and would like share my noob experience in PVP: 1. MWD on Fast Frigs is not useless. It is excellent for travel time and tackling, and making bookmarks for fleet. You want your tacklers to get to you fast especially without BMs in hostile space. In my limited but somewhat successful profession as tackler/bait I have enjoyed watching T2 fitted ships die as my 2,8K m/s tackler got on them quick. If setup correctly, you can live long enough for your firepower to do the job. But if my ship dies, meh, its 250k and mods fitted from level 1 agents. No big deal. If more people got in gangs in low sec and just lived a little, PVP would not be the mystery that it seems to some. It really is not hard and hope more noobs like me try it.
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.10 18:25:00 - [112] There's mixed good and bad advice in this thread. What I worry, both with Rells and his detractors, is that there are a lot of people out there that are going to teach newbies the "right" way to PVP, and discount completely the power of originality, ingenuity and surprise. It is good sometimes to learn by trial and error, because you just might find out something that nobody else thought of - or better still, find your own, preferred way of fighting. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Gobo Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.11.09 03:12:00 - [113] PvP training sounds like a cool idea, but I imagine it would be too expensive for the people who really need it. ________________________________________________ Currently flying Brutix.

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