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Menrith Hadel
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2011.12.01 07:23:00 -
[211] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:
You're right and you're wrong... in wormholes the tax change right now has a huge effect, costs are through the roof on exports/imports, but once the contraptions are up the tax rate will be set to zero so we'll basically see no gain whatsoever. When you consider the taxes we were paying before the expansion it'll be a significant number of months before the tax savings (old rates) pay for the added expenses of the PCOs. Wormholes are impacted amongst the most simply because they receive no actual benefits to them at all.
PI product prices are going to rise significantly, due to the large amount of PI that will still be done in high-sec. You will be able to sell at that significantly higher price. Once you plop down some POCOs, you will be selling at a much higher price while paying no (or very little) extra tax (you'll be in the same position as everyone in lowsec/0.0 who is able to defend their POCOs, except you have the added defensive benefit of being in a wormhole). This patch will increase your profit margins by a potentially large factor and you're complaining because you'll have to drop a few hundred million on some structures that nobody will bother destroying due to the reinforcement timer. |
Jan'tor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 08:18:00 -
[212] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:It would have been much harder to give up, say, a named colony with thousand of residents that I had spend months cultivating by running aggressive recruitment campaigns among neighboring colonies and millions of ISK in infrastructure and facilities to keep spies and sabotages to a minimum.
I do a lot of PI, a whole goddamned lot of PI, but I wouldn't do whatever this is.
holla if your tax rates are 1% :toot: sup highsec |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
152
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 08:22:00 -
[213] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:
What about synth boosters manufactured in lowsec? Won't they be cheap easy to distribute now? Why don't you come to our home system and make them :)
Thanks for the offer, Jade, but as we can see from the discussion here, people expect a raise in price on POS fuel commodities meaning I am better off just selling the fuel I produce in your zero tax system than trying to do synth booster production. It is one thing to activities for little gain and another to put effort into something and lose ISK in the end.
Any way, there is no point in discussions at this point; POCOs bears all the marks of a feature that is going to flop. So let us take a look at it in a couple of months and see where it went.
Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
262
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:19:00 -
[214] - Quote
As long as it's profitable, people will do PI.
Notify: You are eaten by the Whumpus
http://goo.gl/uX5vk |
Endovior
Brothers At Arms
Intrepid Crossing
64
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:25:00 -
[215] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:As long as it's profitable, people will do PI.
Ultimately, it all comes down to that, yes.
So... having launched this threadnaught, my final conclusions amount to...
1: Highsec PI is screwed. People who were really heavily invested in doing PI in hisec with alts might unsub those alts, or possibly try their luck in lowsec. The fanatics will remain, working on much thinner margins.
2: Lowsec PI is up in the air, while people try to figure out just how feasible it is to put up and defend PoCos there. I'd hope for interesting arrangements, like pirates setting up PoCos and collecting protection money from PI-ers in exchange for free passage, but that kind of thing is more a factor of the gangs working the areas then anything else, and will vary heavily between regions.
3: Nullsec PI is going to be really profitable, but fraught with risk, as people try to bait in defence forces by reinforcing PoCos. Expect more fighting; which will neatly segue into the post-expansion wars.
4: Wormhole PI is going to remain slightly less profitable then Null, given the logistical costs of hauling stuff out. A wormhole corp shouldn't need to worry as much about people attacking their PoCos, so it's a safer investment there then in Null. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
430
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:48:00 -
[216] - Quote
Endovior wrote:
1: Highsec PI is screwed. People who were really heavily invested in doing PI in hisec with alts might unsub those alts, or possibly try their luck in lowsec. The fanatics will remain, working on much thinner margins.
Why?
PI harvest planets are still exporting goods to market, they're either charging 50 ISK more per unit today, or they're simply making a bit less on goods that are worth 250-900 ISK/u. All those hi-sec PI harvest planets are still producing 800-1200k ISK/day for their owners.
PI factory planets will need to pay attention now to the tariffs and include it in their profit calculations. Even with the currently screwed up prices as the market shakes out, the following products are still profitable to make if you buy the prior tier, import it, and sell the results:
P2: Biocells, Coolant, Enriched Uranium, Mechanical Parts, Microfiber Shielding, Nanites, Test Cultures, Transmitter, Viral Agent
P3: Biotech Research Reports, Cryoprotectant Solution, Hazmat Detection Systems, Hermetic Membranes, Industrial Explosives, Neocoms, Robotics, Smartfab Units, Vaccines
P4: all are profitable to make from the P3s
Smart producers will attempt to figure out whether it's better to do P2->P3 or P1->P3 (on a single planet), with a similar calculation for those who want to make P4s. Do you buy P3s and make it? Or do you setup a slightly more complex setup that takes P2 as an input to make the P4?
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Endovior
Brothers At Arms
Intrepid Crossing
64
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:48:00 -
[217] - Quote
*Shrugs*
I envision that competition from untaxed PI will drive Hisec producers, if not out of business, then at least to a fairly marginal level of profitability. Faced with such diminished income, I would imagine that the majority of Hisec PI operators will find a more profitable use of their time. |
leavwiz
Firestorm Tactical Research and Development
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 04:41:00 -
[218] - Quote
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:I laughed out loudly! This is MADNESS, CCP. With this PI supernerf, alot of POSs will be abandoned in no time. I am sorry but noone is willing to pay these amounts. What did you guys think?
PI has become endgame for the rich people out there.
already dismantled my POS, no point in trying to make things or do research cheaply for others while absorbing ever expanding mat costs. The absurd PI tax makes my small, solo player planets a waste of time.
I could stay and run the same tired missions that have been offered in high sec for years without any hope of new challenges.
or i could waste my time flying into gank fests at low sec gates.
The idea that somehow hi sec small players will still continue to enjoy big profits from production or PI is laughable and the constant suicide kills of high sec miners has made it abundantly clear that CCP wants us out of high sec or out of the game.
I have billions in isk (yes, all earned risk free). so i have no problem buying bpo's to make things for friends. I play for free with plex. My pleasure in playing was being able to help outfit people and just enjoy the relaxation of mining, research, production, and run the occasional high sec mission.
The PI tax was just another straw in the back breaking string of idiocy that started with incursions (only large fleets need apply)
, then incarna (oh boy i can see a moving figure of my avatar in a room) , and now crucible (pay higher prices to move stuff around in friendly space so that everything will be so expensive that you are forced to move to or deal with low sec players).
I did a goodbye thread elsewhere in the forums and got flamed for my opinion. so be it. The harsh truth is, people are leaving and the recent updates arent attracting new players to feed the grist mill. So maybe I am not alone in thinking CCP has made a mistake here. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
66
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 04:48:00 -
[219] - Quote
HS has low risk, therefore should have low (relative) profit from PI.
CCP is just fixing a mistake of having the PI tax rate set at original PI prices, instead of current ones. No different than when they set insurance to be based on mineral value. |
Jita Alt666
609
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:54:00 -
[220] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:HS has low risk, therefore should have low (relative) profit from PI.
CCP is just fixing a mistake of having the PI tax rate set at original PI prices, instead of current ones. No different than when they set insurance to be based on mineral value.
QFT (and to bump thread so more whines can be generated) |
Lord Zim
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
205
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 08:32:00 -
[221] - Quote
leavwiz wrote:already dismantled my POS, no point in trying to make things or do research cheaply for others while absorbing ever expanding mat costs.
Then don't absorb the mat costs? Do the logical thing and pass the costs on? This isn't rocket science.
leavwiz wrote:I could stay and run the same tired missions that have been offered in high sec for years without any hope of new challenges.
or i could waste my time flying into gank fests at low sec gates.
Or you could train up for transporters and be 95% safe. I had no issues with running 1-5 trips (or more) back and forth to/from solitude along its lowsec path every day for 3-4 months. |
PongTong
Psykotic Meat
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:11:00 -
[222] - Quote
My mil of isk:
High sec PI : too much work for too little gain. Setup about 15 planets (3 chars) a month later and made 50-100m isk? didn't think it was worth the effort. High sec is safe, but it still took a whole day to setup the planets and ~ 1 hour each day to refresh etc. Another day for the month to clear out stock and sell etc.
Now there is even less gain - at least at the old market price. who know if PI go up 10x price it could be a different story.
Null sec PI : Farm / Factory setup = win. Getting it out to Jita would cut you back a bit, but like many already know, the isk you make per month covered the month's sub + bonus enough to buy a faction boat if are careful with it.
Stable alliance this wouldn't have much effect. Initial isk + time investment to put up offices. But which alliance doesn't have hardcore pve bears? There will be plenty of drive to do the initial hard work and get the offices going.
Unstable regions will be fun. you might not even have an Office if the invading sides are keen to apply pressure.
Low sec PI : I used to think this was the best location. One of the things I hated doing is rebuilding a PI network after moving to a new location. But low sec bordering high sec wasn't affected by this. You'd have to be patient and wait out pirates, but not too difficult once a month. Getting it to Jita compared to deep space null is cheaper too, enough to offset the slightly lower returns compare to null. Not anymore.
New changes is definitely going to screw with this stability! who's gonna control the offices? how high will the tax be set? 100% gtfo? not me - can't be assed. I will just soldier on and see how badly the isk cut is. Low-sec 'npc sov' corps should rejoice though, now you can put your flag poles up in the system.
I am actually quite intrigue by this change, it is definitely a push for a more profiteering environment - what eve is all about!. I think fighting over the busy low sec border planets will be the cake. The tax you get from the offices are substantial. And unlike selling the damn things, its instant isk. You get your cut straight away! Not to mention the chance is still there to catch those badges and steal more of the loot.
If the profits from PI does go south - oh well stop and time for more incursions!
And lastly, to the people thinking of waiting it out before exporting. Have you considered:
- The next owner of your office will set a nasty high price.
- The cost of PI is projected to go UP. The tax per percent - if it maintains a close match to Jita price - will also go UP.
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Barakkus
1115
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:29:00 -
[223] - Quote
I don't know, I went around to my planets and messed with stuff like I usually do a couple times a week. Taxes didn't seem that outrageous. I think this is a case of more forum drama queens QQing for the most part. |
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