Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

This really surprised me too. I was able to make around 500-800m a month in highsec doing production only but now it will be closer to 100-300 o_o Kind of not really worth it anymore. People say the prices might go up and that could be true, but if the prices go up all around that does not help the production only people. The ratios between buying and selling will still be the same probably D:

did you ever stop to think what this is going to do to the economy?

did you ever stop to think what this is going to do to the economy?

Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Confirming it was a bad idea and you screwed up.

but i have to say that it is in direct odds with what the dev blogs on PI have stated and there was nothing in the patch notes at all about the price increase

you've got one dev blog that was advertised and pushed forward for attention that states that to keep costs as they were set the tax rate to 5% and then a wiki entry (which i haven't seen posted anywhere before this thread ) stating something completely different

also my main concern now is if they update the tax values on a monthly (or bi-monthly) basis then PI costs could very easily spiral out of control..

Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

The more taxes, replacement cost/fuel you have to consider on base prices the more expensive they will get but, it's not an option. Wait a littel bit, keep producing your stuff and leave it on your hangars, prices will probably become interesting in a few days/weeks

did you ever stop to think what this is going to do to the economy?

I'm sorry, sometimes I have trouble containing my evil glee at your realization that PI is no longer a free ISK printer in highsec and may actually require effort and risk to turn a much higher profit.

No, you haven't stopped to think about what this means for null sec. AFAIK customs offices can be popped by anyone sov or no sov. Prepare to lose all your POS fuel to your enemies via raids.

No, you haven't stopped to think about what this means for null sec. AFAIK customs offices can be popped by anyone sov or no sov. Prepare to lose all your POS fuel to your enemies via raids.

Customs Offices do reinforce. If you can hold a POS, you should be able to hold a Customs Office. And if you can't hold a POS... well, you shouldn't be stockpiling your PI goo in the Customs Office, anyways.

Customs Offices do reinforce. If you can hold a POS, you should be able to hold a Customs Office. And if you can't hold a POS... well, you shouldn't be stockpiling your PI goo in the Customs Office, anyways.

Oh, did you ever stop to think that they gave it much consideration?

Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

All you people that think random gankers can take out a POCO are smoking crack. They have 10 million shield hp.

God forbid. Goons will now have to fight to keep their free isk printer in nullsec alive.

All you people that think random gankers can take out a POCO are smoking crack. They have 10 million shield hp.

No, you haven't stopped to think about what this means for null sec. AFAIK customs offices can be popped by anyone sov or no sov. Prepare to lose all your POS fuel to your enemies via raids.

Thank you for implementing a solid system. This is a nice example of risk being rewarded and risk aversion being shunned.

So slightly less than a caldari small tower? And no RESISTS? YUMMM. 10 million hp is nothing.

Please, enlighten me as to why anyone would bother with deploying a POCO when the impact of taxes on their bottom line was somewhere in the neighborhood of one half of one percent of their profits? The new tax rates will get priced into PI goods, or competition from low sec/nullsec tax havens will put highsec PI'ers out of business.

Goons goons goons

What tax havens? Goonswarm intends to charge 15% and we're tech rich. Tiny corps of less then a dozen close friends might go with 0%, but I doubt many medium or large ones will be charging less than the 10% you'll be paying in highsec.


With good skills you can put down two extractor control units and some factories, and go from extraction to P2 all on one planet. This will be more profitable now than shipping P1s around to dedicated factory planets. I hope you like reconfiguring all your extraction planets.

Highsec factory planets aren't dead, they just aren't that good for P2s anymore. P3s and P4 will likely still require factory planets and the associated extra tax costs of exporting, importing and then re-exporting. Turning P2s into P3s and P4s will be cheaper to do in highsec than in goonspace, or anywhere with an Interbus CO.

Come take out my POCOs then if you think it's nothing.

Thing is that less offer will be available, more iskies you'll get from what you do.

The more taxes, replacement cost/fuel you have to consider on base prices the more expensive they will get but, it's not an option. Wait a littel bit, keep producing your stuff and leave it on your hangars, prices will probably become interesting in a few days/weeks

So unless higher end goods go up a lot more than lower end goods it won't matter for my type of PI.

But holding a POS is different. A POS has guns and thus is (fairly) immune to small ships. And a system with sov has cyno jammers, so there will be no big ships until the cyno jammer is taken out. That means only one thing to defend in a system. Customs offices have no guns. So unless you're prepared to camp all your customs offices, prepare to run all over null sec responding to attack notifications...

Unless you own a POS is lowsec. Risk you always had AND higher operating cost. Win/win right?

It's a fixed percentage, so prices will be going up evenly across the board. I wouldn't rush out to sell your broadcast nodes for 1 million each right now...

Edit: Better yet - planetary launches are MORE expensive than the concord/interbus rates

10k/s regen

What???
what are rates of launchers compared to CO???

trying to force people into a certain game style has never worked before, you are going to need all the luck you can get.

So, CCP Nullarbor and CCP Omen uses the stick method to force a game play element through... Good luck with that. Considering that trying to force people into a certain game style has never worked before, you are going to need all the luck you can get.

Btw. screw booster production; I am now effectively losing ISK if I try to do that.

I'm sure someone will. Small tower evictions happen all the time, and it doesn't take supercaps to do it.

I see a small stick and a big carrot.

If you set up your own PCO's on the planets in your lowsec system, you are actually lowering your operating costs (and possibly opening an income stream from others) at increased risk.

by my calculations (and my Oracle fit) it takes 12 Oracles to break the tank (10k/s regen) of a POCO.


time to reinforce = 8mil (shields that need to be removed)/(DPS-10,000)

12 x 900 dps oracles = 10800 dps

8,000,000/(10800-10000) = 8,000,000/800 = 10,000 seconds = 167 minutes = 2.8 hours


on the other hand 20 x 900 dps oracles

18000 dps about 17 minutes

Posting in another ****-thread with OP whining about "problems" documented well in advance of the patch release.

If you people used the eve website for anything other than ****-posting about CCP features you perceive as problems, you would have known about this tax and ~shock~ ****-posted about it before patch release.

It is ridiculous. I have all my PI in low sec and way way too much. Can't assemble your own if youre in a npc corp from my understanding or if in a small 5-10 man corp probably not going to happen.

Guess we should just raise prices on everything then other will stop complaining about our PI tax complaining. Just needs to trickle down a bit.

The POCO doesn't regenerate at 10,000 shield per second. It has 10,000,000 shield point and regenerate in 50,000 seconds. That's 200 shield per second.

So it would take 12 Oracles a total of 13 minutes to reinforce a POCO.

There's practically no benefits at all to wormholes... it's pure expense.

Posting in another ****-thread with OP whining about "problems" documented well in advance of the patch release.

If you people used the eve website for anything other than ****-posting about CCP features you perceive as problems, you would have known about this tax and ~shock~ ****-posted about it before patch release.

You realize there's a difference between an armed structure and a floating target, yes?

Because you cant tank a POS

the person who told me the regen rate had it wrong then. i was surprised by how high it was.

I just took my tower down, and my subs run for another 20 days then I'm done.

Exorbitant customs duties are one of the many mechanics released with this expansion that is designed to get people to move into nullsec, something which I will not do.

Bye everyone!

You must admit, CCP. An overnight increase of 1000% is sort of Jita. I dont even run PI and I smell scam.

You must admit, CCP. An overnight increase of 1000% is sort of Jita. I dont even run PI and I smell scam.

The extra taxes are going right in the devs pockets! They are converting to plex and having parties showing of their monocoles and designer space jeans!!

Issler

Confirming it was a bad idea and you screwed up.

You pubbies know that the prices of planetary materials will increase to the point where this is profitable again, right? Probably even for most stuff in high-sec, too, though I can see a steady supply of plasma planet stuff from low/null out-competing high-seccers.

This thread is like a honeypot for people bad at economics. It's pretty awesome.

The markets will adjust to the new taxes. The tax changes secured the important future of PI in Eve.

Of course, the Goonies are failing to realize that this increase in PI prices will result in smaller corps finding their cost of maintaining their pos in high sec, low, whatever too expensive should the PI prices "adjust" accordingly.

Taking away people's ability to play how they want is bad for Eve.

Of course, the Goonies are failing to realize that this increase in PI prices will result in smaller corps finding their cost of maintaining their pos in high sec, low, whatever too expensive should the PI prices "adjust" accordingly.

Taking away people's ability to play how they want is bad for Eve.

No: the cost is passed on to the consumer.

Yeah, and at one point the consumer stops flying. It's called "demand destruction".

So, so bad at economics. What do you think happens to airfare prices in the real world when the price of crude oil goes up over a sustained period of time? Nothing, and planes all just stop flying? No: the cost is passed on to the consumer. Producers reliant on POS can also increase their sales price and continue making profits -- and they will.

Nothing is being taken away from people. The economic value of a certain activity is being increased. In time, markets will adjust.

That's actually probably the best explanation why alot of people don't like it. The impending wave of inflation doesn't sound particularly great to me. Maybe I'm missing something. That and the fact that smaller groups are going to have more issues getting POCO's up and keeping them defended.

PI will scale accordingly, I have little doubt of that. It's the cost of anything PI related scaling as well that I'm not looking forward too. But eh, if this is the course it goes, so be it.

The impending wave of inflation doesn't sound particularly great to me. Maybe I'm missing something. That and the fact that smaller groups are going to have more issues getting POCO's up and keeping them defended.

It's not inflation, it's price increases. There's quite a difference, there.

in-+fla-+tion [in-fley-shuhn] noun
1. Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency ( opposed to deflation).

Derp. No, it's not inflation. It's price increases. Hey are you American by any chance?

Of course, the Goonies are failing to realize that this increase in PI prices will result in smaller corps finding their cost of maintaining their pos in high sec, low, whatever too expensive should the PI prices "adjust" accordingly.

Taking away people's ability to play how they want is bad for Eve.

[quote=Ingvar Angst]If you find the PI-sourced fuels on the market to be too expensive, then a few of your corp-members should setup a few PI harvest planets. It's not hard and they'll still give you 1-2M ISK of P1 product per day per planet. So if you have 7-10 PI harvest planets (in low/null), you've just paid for that single large POS tower's fuel bill. If that amount of effort isn't worth it to you, then you'll have to pay the market price for the fuel.

[quote=Ingvar
So, so bad at economics. What do you think happens to airfare prices in the real world when the price of crude oil goes up over a sustained period of time? Nothing, and planes all just stop flying? No: the cost is passed on to the consumer. Producers reliant on POS can also increase their sales price and continue making profits -- and they will.

Nothing is being taken away from people. The economic value of a certain activity is being increased. In time, markets will adjust.

Right. And if you mine the ore yourself, the ship is free.

Would you say that these increasing costs are due to a surfeit of currency in the economy (per the inflation definition you just pasted) or would you say it's more related to the increases in the cost procuring those materials?


You didn't even read the definition you pasted, did you?

I can just picture your fat, sweaty fingers gleefully hitting the keys to copy and paste that definition. In my imagination, a single trickle of sweat washes over your eyes right as you copied that text, preventing you from noticing that inflation is not, in fact, what you think it is. Nice masterstroke, pal ^____^

But i will love to read the stories of fights that will be had for POCOs, rising PI collectives and the crumbling of those.
The sandbox is changing, it was all the time and it wont stop, you adapt or you die. If this change is too much for your PI actions you just didnt try hard enough.

Was going to keep Eve subbed while I played another mmo, but with the changes to PI, I won't be.

Thanks CCP for making this decision easier and saving me $45 a month.

I just took my tower down, and my subs run for another 20 days then I'm done.

Exorbitant customs duties are one of the many mechanics released with this expansion that is designed to get people to move into nullsec, something which I will not do.

Bye everyone!

Confirming it was a bad idea and you screwed up.

What he says ^^^

By turning up the tax to 17% you have killed PI for weeks or worse. People need the time to setup their own POCO's. I can read all the wiki's you post, but that doesn't change the chaos you guys created for PI.

..

An aside: I have not yet found two systems neighboring each other where you can get everything you need to fuel a POS.

So the new ones(at 10%) compared to the old, its really:
P0: 500%*old
P1: 6579%*old
P2: 10000%*old
P3: 1167%*old
P4: 270%*old

[Would you say that billions of ISK sitting in people's bank accounts doing nothing is part of the economy?

Yeah, and at one point the consumer stops flying. It's called "demand destruction".

[quote=Ptraci][quote=pmchem]

Absolutely, people are definitely going to stop flying T2 and supercapital ships just because they cost 17% more.

So, so bad at economics. What do you think happens to airfare prices in the real world when the price of crude oil goes up over a sustained period of time? Nothing, and planes all just stop flying? No: the cost is passed on to the consumer. Producers reliant on POS can also increase their sales price and continue making profits -- and they will.

Nothing is being taken away from people. The economic value of a certain activity is being increased. In time, markets will adjust.

POS fuel costs already yo-yo up and down +/- 20% over the course of a year. Some months, isotopes cost 300-400 ISK, then they cost 500-600 ISK. Some months it costs you 350M ISK to fuel that large tower, other months you pay closer to 450M ISK. So you either learn to live with that uncertainty, or build up a strategic stockpile of the fuel-components when prices are low and live off of them when prices are high. And you always include those variable costs in your profit/loss calculations and make sure that your margins can survive a 20% spike in fuel cost.

If you find the PI-sourced fuels on the market to be too expensive, then a few of your corp-members should setup a few PI harvest planets. It's not hard and they'll still give you 1-2M ISK of P1 product per day per planet. So if you have 7-10 PI harvest planets (in low/null), you've just paid for that single large POS tower's fuel bill. If that amount of effort isn't worth it to you, then you'll have to pay the market price for the fuel.

Hi all,

I've been running a big (high sec) PI operation for a year now.

I'm using all 9 toons (3 accounts) managing 46 planets to manufacture mainly robotics and some other stuff

Yesterday I paid over 6 mil ISK for something that used to cost me around 500k ???
WTH were you thinking CCP?

I made over 1,5 bil per a month and I'm not going to spent 500 mil of that every month on stupid tax
I'm really considering giving up on PI =(

This is plain ****

Was going to keep Eve subbed while I played another mmo, but with the changes to PI, I won't be.

Thanks CCP for making this decision easier and saving me $45 a month.

Bald move CCP.
This is gonna have a bad effect in eve guaranteed. specially in regions where these planet stuff aint that good or worth to buy custom office. I cant blaim anyone not wanting to buy it....its a huge investment that will only return the investment 2 years down the line..
bad bad move

in-+fla-+tion [in-fley-shuhn] noun
1. Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency ( opposed to deflation).

Derp. No, it's not inflation. It's price increases. Hey are you American by any chance?

I know its going to be painful to people who have gotten used to a certain level of risk-free profit but really this is exactly the kind of thing Eve Online needs to become dynamic again. Risk/reward for outfits willing to take the step of moving their operations to lowsec.

For the record its highly likely my corporation will be operating zero % (or extremely low rate) customs offices in lowsec (for everyone friends, neutrals, enemies) to represent our roleplay ideology as free trade anarchists.

We love the idea of encouraging settlement in lowsec and are happy for any small outfits / individuals making use of the facilties for free (tiny tax rates)

Having the hisec tax set high gives us a better chance to persuade people to make the jump.
Hence this is a good change.

Bullcrap. There's no added risk/reward with these PCOs at all. It's nothing but added expenses. People won't waste their time in lowsec defending these useless structures... if they can't keep one up they'll simply stop wasting their time with PI. It's even more useless in wormhole space... I don't know what the hell Nullabor was thinking even including them in wormholes. All they are are added, useless expenses, wasted isk. With these dumbassed tax rates we'll be setting them to 0% in hole in order to keep from screwing over corp and alliance folks and pretty much shutting the door on any of those mythical ninja-WH-PI people I hear of. Even a 1% tax at the new figures is more than what was being paid prior, so it's not worth having one at all when your own allies are going to be the only ones affected.

This is one change that if it went away wouldn't be missed, aside from the blowhards and griefers that is.

I'm just glad I went and brought a shed load of P4 products the second CCP released information about POCO's.

Checking the prices at Jita just before DT and I have already doubled my isk :)
]

...Please take off the blinkers and realise this is a multiplayer game and the game dynamics go further than your own narrow self interest...

you are my hero .... not

Excuse me.
Take a breath and consider.

I've told you in the post above that my corp intends to put up these offices for low or non existant tax rates. We want to do that because we want to attract trade to lowsec. We're not asking you (or other loners) to put up offices and take responsibility for protecting them.

This change is CCP giving us (in star fraction) a tool to encourage activity in lowsec systems where we operate. Please take off the blinkers and realise this is a multiplayer game and the game dynamics go further than your own narrow self interest Ingvar Angst.

(and in future address me with a civil tongue when I post respectfully on an issue like this)

True, PI could have used more player generated conflict but I still think the best approach would have been to make that conflict on the planets instead of coating PI with completely different mechanics and game play.

you are my hero .... not

Planets and POCOs need to be very economically important to Eve players for people to fight over them... in DUST 514. These tax changes are way overdue and will be a good thing for the game long-term.

Taxes were always there, now people actually notice them. Adjust your spreadsheets.

Would you say that billions of ISK sitting in people's bank accounts doing nothing is part of the economy? Or do rising prices cause people to spend more thus expanding the money supply? Oh dear oh dear. I DO understand the situation very well. Money idling in someone's wallet is not part of the economy, just like money in unsubbed accounts is not part of the economy. But when people have an excuse to shove more ISK into the system, you will see fireworks. And yes it is inflation.

Planets and POCOs need to be very economically important to Eve players for people to fight over them... in DUST 514. These tax changes are way overdue and will be a good thing for the game long-term.

Taxes were always there, now people actually notice them. Adjust your spreadsheets.

+1 CCP to the taxes and whole new approach. Plus love the tears. Build your own stuff if you don't like the taxes.

Please, close your mouth... you're leaking stupid on the carpet.

The "market" will need time to adjust to this new mix of production costs: various tax rates per planet, volatility in the quantities of PI/T2 items actually reaching the market, sell off of stockpiles, and margin buy/sell orders by wealthy middle-market traders.

Please, close your mouth... you're leaking stupid on the carpet.

It's people building their own stuff that are currently being hit with this asinine increase in taxes.

I actually think the market already adjusted before the expansion came out. For example, robotics is up some 80% since they announced the changes. That's more than the cost of the tax even if you calculate in that you have to export, import to a factory planet, and re-export.

You should really learn the math.

Not if they've replaced the POCO with their own, or if they look at the prices and think "I'm still saving money".

stop bitching about the taxes and go around them by jet canning

Replacing the customs offices with your own simply incurs a what... 160M or so isk hit right away that will take many months (pre-patch levels) to recoup in savings from a 0% tax rate. You take the blow all at once, then have to look at this damnable object that's nothing more than an isk sucking worthless piece of crap floating in your wormhole. They add nothing to the experience of Eve at all from a wormhole perspective, and denigrate it for the lesser spaces outside wormholes.

stop bitching about the taxes and go around them by jet canning

Once the initial shock of the short-term reduction in cash flow has worn off, and these producers do what they must to meet their cash requirements, I'd expect to see these producers stockpiling as much as possible until average Buy order price > weighted average net cost of stockpiled items.

I disagree, Jade.

True, PI could have used more player generated conflict but I still think the best approach would have been to make that conflict on the planets instead of coating PI with completely different mechanics and game play. The core PI mechanics still consists of simplistic clicking and moving dots around and does in no way match the engaging game play that was presented at the fan fest prior to PIs introduction.

Further, that CCP has to so strongly manipulate the market to make POCOs a viable game play speak tons about how little POCOs add to the game by themselves. As example, CCP has not needed to increase construction prices of all tier 1 and 2 battlecruisers for people to become interested in buying a tier 3. And synth booster production? Well, that game play element has been completely sacrificed for the sake of POCOs.

While the increased PI costs can mostly be directed to increased prices for the final products, there is no way people will buy these boosters at all now. I find it really hard to support introduction of new game mechanics when they come at the direct cost of others when there are so many other things CCP could have been improving upon.

Finally, the POCO mechanics support the "numbers=win" and "nap feast" game play types that tire many people in zero sec. I am a firm opponent of promoting these game play types any more than necessary.

Don't you think its kind of ridiculous that there are customs offices around unknown planets anyway. Perhaps wormhole PI should start with an expensive program of settlement and colonization and terriforming before you could use the planets in the first place.

How does one jet can planetary resources?

So, I say again (respectfully), bullcrap. There's no risk/reward being added by these damnable contraptions. Just unnecessary and ill-thought out expense. And like I stated, these things really show their true worthlessness in wormholes, where the couple K in exports you'll save with 0% tax settings won't recoup the cost of these abominations for months (or longer). Just wasted isk. No added risk/reward.

Link your wearhouse or launch pad to your comand center then launch from said comand center.

It launches a jet can into space and you get the Book mark. then warp to it and your set.

It costs a little under current Interbus / Concord Taxes.

Don't think of it as an added expense. Think of it as the normal expense, and the absurdly low cost of doing business before now was an introductory sale which has now ended.

How do you jetcan them back to a different planet for further refinement?

Don't even think of it as an expense. It's a profitable long term investment. The PI prices will likely balance out based on the cost of high sec PI, so that means with the tax priced in. If you don't build a POCO in a wormhole, you'll be making normal profits. If you build one and evade the tax, you'll make normal profits + the tax.

"Normal" tax was 2 or 3 K for a shipment of P2 goods up, half that to import to a different planet for further processing, and another small tax to export processed goods. Now?

5000 Precious metals... 617K or so in taxes. Importing them to the next planet brings the taxes to over a million, with comparable taxes on other imported goods, meaning something like robotics, which requires four P2 items, has already been hit for 4M in taxes just to consolidate 5K of each item. Then you're hit again on the refined products you're exporting. We've gone, without exaggerating, from around 10K to millions of isk in taxes for something that provides little to no benefit to the game, and absolutely no benefit to wormhole existance. It's pure cost, pure expense. No added risk, no added rewards.

As much as I do not like the new taxes within our wormhole, I agree with them.

It will force us to build some custom offices, and in turn other people to build some in their wormhole.

The 1 month or so of an extra tax till we get all our planets setup is nothing.

A little growing pain here and there, but what a great patch this was. The game looks amazing, and there were lots of adjustments everywhere.

You don't understand. The prices of the goods you produce went way up prior to the patch to take the new expense into account. The prices you can sell the stuff for is not fixed, it fluctuates based on how much it costs to make the stuff, how much of a pita it is, etc. So if everybody's costs go up X ISK, the price goes up X too. But in a wormhole you at least have the option to avoid the tax increase and make the usual profits PLUS the amount that the taxes are costing other players.

Most of what's produced, POS fuel, remains in the wormhole. Some excess will eventually get out to market, sure, and any non-fuels you may have going as well, but the majority remains in the hole and therefore is exempt from your line of reasoning. This is why this is pretty much simply a useless expense.

How does it help you? Seriously, how do these PCOs help you in any way, shape or form in your alleged wormhole? Eight planets, that's about a billion or so spent if you make your own gantries, much more if you buy them. For what value? What gain?

"Normal" tax was 2 or 3 K for a shipment of P2 goods up, half that to import to a different planet for further processing, and another small tax to export processed goods. Now?

5000 Precious metals... 617K or so in taxes. Importing them to the next planet brings the taxes to over a million, with comparable taxes on other imported goods, meaning something like robotics, which requires four P2 items, has already been hit for 4M in taxes just to consolidate 5K of each item. Then you're hit again on the refined products you're exporting. We've gone, without exaggerating, from around 10K to millions of isk in taxes for something that provides little to no benefit to the game, and absolutely no benefit to wormhole existance. It's pure cost, pure expense. No added risk, no added rewards.

Most of what's produced, POS fuel, remains in the wormhole. Some excess will eventually get out to market, sure, and any non-fuels you may have going as well, but the majority remains in the hole and therefore is exempt from your line of reasoning. This is why this is pretty much simply a useless expense.

I always enjoy your posts, but are going to have to pick an argument and stick with it.

Either the tax rate is a huge amount of money you can't aford to lose... or...

the tax rate savings is too low to pay off the expense of a POCO in a reasonable amount of time.

One or the other, you can't argue both ways and maintain credibility.

Ugh... I must have been unclear. Apologies there.

Stick with the tax rate being too high. The thing is, there won't be much if any recoupment in wormholes because, let's face it, having the tax rate at anything higher than zero percent is simply screwing your corp members or alliance members. Even 1% with these new calculations are a marked increase in taxes. So it's not that the taxes are too low to recoup the expense, it's that you're not going to be screwing your own people to do that. Well... some may, good luck to their future as a corp, but that's a different issue.

The point stands, the PCOs are purely (regarding wormholes for sure) a worthless, unneeded and unnecessary added expense with no actual benefits being realized from the inhabitants. Even with a zero tax, it would be many, many months before the tax savings would ever catch up to the expense, especially when you consider the original taxes that were being paid, which is what the comparison is and should be based upon.

Ugh... I must have been unclear. Apologies there.

Stick with the tax rate being too high. The thing is, there won't be much if any recoupment in wormholes because, let's face it, having the tax rate at anything higher than zero percent is simply screwing your corp members or alliance members. Even 1% with these new calculations are a marked increase in taxes. So it's not that the taxes are too low to recoup the expense, it's that you're not going to be screwing your own people to do that. Well... some may, good luck to their future as a corp, but that's a different issue.

The point stands, the PCOs are purely (regarding wormholes for sure) a worthless, unneeded and unnecessary added expense with no actual benefits being realized from the inhabitants. Even with a zero tax, it would be many, many months before the tax savings would ever catch up to the expense, especially when you consider the original taxes that were being paid, which is what the comparison is and should be based upon.

You just said it yourself: there is a benefit to owning your own POCO, because you can give yourself and your corporation favorable tax rates. This means there is now a benefit to owning space, because it gives you a competitive advantage against users who have to pay CONCORD taxes in highsec. This drives conflict, and introduces a new "Landlord" playstyle that didn't exist previously.

It sounds like you mostly live in a wormhole, meaning the tax change will impact you even less than the vast majority of players, because it's very unlikely someone is going to be bothered to get together a fleet, probe out your hole, reinforce your POCO, sit around for 24 hours+, and then nuke it after reinforced. This allows you to effectively get your PI goods 10% or more cheaper than the rest of the player base, because you can set your own taxes to 0%, providing you with a sizeable discount to your POS costs.

The fact that you are so bothered by the new taxes means that the developers have done an adequate job of incentivizing the use of the new POCOs. If taxes were the pittance they were previously, no one would bother with the hassle of setting up a POCO, and we would have a shallower game as a result.

The "benefit" is forced. It's an illusion of a benefit simply because it's the only way around the now exhorborant taxes for PI importing/exporting that Nullabor, in his infinite "wisdom", crammed down the communities throats to push an idea that he's to emotionally attached to to realize it actually adds nothing to the game. The problem is that if you don't use one of these contraptions on every planet in your hole you're now being penalized... and to put one up you're being penalized heavily in a front-loaded fashion. You're right and you're wrong... in wormholes the tax change right now has a huge effect, costs are through the roof on exports/imports, but once the contraptions are up the tax rate will be set to zero so we'll basically see no gain whatsoever. When you consider the taxes we were paying before the expansion it'll be a significant number of months before the tax savings (old rates) pay for the added expenses of the PCOs. Wormholes are impacted amongst the most simply because they receive no actual benefits to them at all.

I'd argue the PCOs make it a shallower game by forcing a useless expense on players that will ultimate drive up costs, reduce low sec PvP and eventually become an annoyance item offering little to no benefits unless you're the mega-alliance type that can force your underlings to use them at the tax rate you determine.

This is why all you carebears need to enjoy PvP also to understand why this is a good change.

I am a HUGE carebear but love PvP. I just bought a POCO for 120 million and all the upgrade components. I now get to shoot down an Interbus CO with my Alliance exposing us to potential PvP and risk. Then I get to set up our own POCO and we have to defend it exposing us to more potential conflict. THEN I get to set the taxes to my friends and enemies and potentially **** someone off and maybe get more PvP out of this! And if I set up my POCO at a well used planet I will get some extra income to pay for the potential risk. And I get my PI mats off planet for free.

If high sec ones were cheap then no one would bother with low sec.

This was a needed buff to low sec and PvP and all you whiners need to quit EvE and go farm in LOTRO instead.

This is the best change of the patch and adds more sand to the sandbox.

C'mon, who you kidding? You really expect us to buy this line of crap? How many of these mythical defense fleets do you expect to lose to a larger force that jumped you when you took the bait of your PCO being attacked before people decide it's not worth it? How many PCOs do you think you'll lose before you realize it's not worth it? How many times do you think you can mobilize your alliance to defend one of your structures that you put up in what, low sec? that only benefits your corp wallet before they decide it's not worth defending your structure?

Seriously now, think about it. PCOs are bait for you to bite into and die on the hook of. Anyone in low that's seriously looking to blow some ships simply needs to have a small force start attacking the PCO, wait for you all to arrive then send the large force in to eradicate you.

Even if you're particular alliance manages to pull it off once or twice, how many others will find it worthwhile, be able to muster enough people willing to lose their ships to PCO traps before they give up?

Seriuosly. You're either deluding yourself or trying to delude others.

That works both ways.

POCO's serve as shiney lures all over space to draw in people trying to pop them.

Not that they appear to be very effective at that... so far custom offices of all types appear to be largely ignored.

Has anyone spotted the predicted mass extermination of these things yet?

Don't know about empire space, but I already have a couple gantries in the hole with the upgrade materials so we'll be putting these overpriced Interbus pieces of crap out of our misery soon enough. Then of course the tax rate will be zero for corp and alliance to avoid CCP continuing to screw us on the taxes, which means it'll be months before we save enough in taxes (compared to the old rates) for these to even be worth it.

Wasted isk, that's all it is. Wasted isk.

Personally I'd make the tax rate comparable to Empire until the POCO has paid for itself, then reduce the tax to zero if you prefer. Or use it as an additional modest revenue stream for your corp.

Remember CCP isn't screwing you on taxes when you pay them to yourself. In fact, the higher tax rate in Empire (and the corresponding increase in market prices to compensate) means you will actually be making (saving) more money than ever before compared to everyone else.

This is why all you carebears need to enjoy PvP also to understand why this is a good change.

I am a HUGE carebear but love PvP. I just bought a POCO for 120 million and all the upgrade components. I now get to shoot down an Interbus CO with my Alliance exposing us to potential PvP and risk. Then I get to set up our own POCO and we have to defend it exposing us to more potential conflict. THEN I get to set the taxes to my friends and enemies and potentially **** someone off and maybe get more PvP out of this! And if I set up my POCO at a well used planet I will get some extra income to pay for the potential risk. And I get my PI mats off planet for free.

If high sec ones were cheap then no one would bother with low sec.

This was a needed buff to low sec and PvP and all you whiners need to quit EvE and go farm in LOTRO instead.

This is the best change of the patch and adds more sand to the sandbox.

did you ever stop to think what this is going to do to the economy?

Yes this is great for Alliances who can muster blobs, so all of the rest of us Non-Alliance carebears are now forced to play your way?

KOTOR is in Beta right now I hear.

It will utterly destroy the economy. Much like the introduction of NPC corp taxes did. (I do miss those threadnaughts).

Wait...What's that I hear? EVE didn't collapse? The economy muddled through just fine?

I guess all you doom and gloomers have your answer, then.

HTFU, yo!

Mr Epeen

Not really, since KOTOR was released in 2003. I think you mean SW:TOR.

did you ever stop to think what this is going to do to the economy?

Your Idea of PVP is 20 to 1

Yes this is great for Alliances who can muster blobs, so all of the rest of us Non-Alliance carebears are now forced to play your way?

Taxes are lower in low sec then high sec

Please explain this to the people who CCP laid off because they didn't listen to the player base.

This is the best change of the patch and adds more sand to the sandbox.

You does not equal the playerbase. You are a whiney minority.

Confirming glad to see that Ingvar's "hole" got temp nerfed and that in my opinion he is whining close to that of the pirates when CONCORD got buffed.

And VERY VERY VERY glad to say to you for once.

WORKING AS INTENDED!

See you once they implement cloaking changes!