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Anela Cistine GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 89	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:17:00 - [31] - Quote Linka Romanov wrote: Please, enlighten me as to why anyone would bother with deploying a POCO when the impact of taxes on their bottom line was somewhere in the neighborhood of one half of one percent of their profits? The new tax rates will get priced into PI goods, or competition from low sec/nullsec tax havens will put highsec PI'ers out of business. What tax havens? Goonswarm intends to charge 15% and we're tech rich. Tiny corps of less then a dozen close friends might go with 0%, but I doubt many medium or large ones will be charging less than the 10% you'll be paying in highsec. With good skills you can put down two extractor control units and some factories, and go from extraction to P2 all on one planet. This will be more profitable now than shipping P1s around to dedicated factory planets. I hope you like reconfiguring all your extraction planets. Highsec factory planets aren't dead, they just aren't that good for P2s anymore. P3s and P4 will likely still require factory planets and the associated extra tax costs of exporting, importing and then re-exporting. Turning P2s into P3s and P4s will be cheaper to do in highsec than in goonspace, or anywhere with an Interbus CO.
Jita Alt666 595	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:19:00 - [32] - Quote Mara Tessidar wrote: Cloora wrote: All you people that think random gankers can take out a POCO are smoking crack. They have 10 million shield hp. Goons goons goons Average planet count per system: 12 Number of low sec/null sec systems in Eve Online: 5200 (guestimate - can't remember from memory o.0) Good luck with that. Time for some blue balling.
Mara Tessidar Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 245	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:19:00 - [33] - Quote Anela you forgot to mention the 1% tax haven planets for factories. Sup pubbies. Notify: You are eaten by the Whumpus http://goo.gl/uX5vk
Linka Romanov Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:22:00 - [34] - Quote Anela Cistine wrote: Linka Romanov wrote: Please, enlighten me as to why anyone would bother with deploying a POCO when the impact of taxes on their bottom line was somewhere in the neighborhood of one half of one percent of their profits? The new tax rates will get priced into PI goods, or competition from low sec/nullsec tax havens will put highsec PI'ers out of business. What tax havens? Goonswarm intends to charge 15% and we're tech rich. Tiny corps of less then a dozen close friends might go with 0%, but I doubt many medium or large ones will be charging less than the 10% you'll be paying in highsec. With good skills you can put down two extractor control units and some factories, and go from extraction to P2 all on one planet. This will be more profitable now than shipping P1s around to dedicated factory planets. I hope you like reconfiguring all your extraction planets. Highsec factory planets aren't dead, they just aren't that good for P2s anymore. P3s and P4 will likely still require factory planets and the associated extra tax costs of exporting, importing and then re-exporting. Turning P2s into P3s and P4s will be cheaper to do in highsec than in goonspace, or anywhere with an Interbus CO. Highsec is actually 20% now. Plus lowsec and nullsec planets are far more resource-rich than their highsec counterparts. Even a 25% difference in the tax burden (15% vs. 20%) is likely to have a dramatic effect on the user's bottom line, because the tax burden is the main "cost" of running a planet that you don't have to buy factory inputs for.
Ptraci 3 R Corporation 208	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:23:00 - [35] - Quote Cloora wrote: Come take out my POCOs then if you think it's nothing. I'm sure someone will. Small tower evictions happen all the time, and it doesn't take supercaps to do it.
Kietay Ayari Monopoly Money Operations 72	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:23:00 - [36] - Quote Tanya Powers wrote: Kietay Ayari wrote: This really surprised me too. I was able to make around 500-800m a month in highsec doing production only but now it will be closer to 100-300 o_o Kind of not really worth it anymore. People say the prices might go up and that could be true, but if the prices go up all around that does not help the production only people. The ratios between buying and selling will still be the same probably D: Thing is that less offer will be available, more iskies you'll get from what you do. The more taxes, replacement cost/fuel you have to consider on base prices the more expensive they will get but, it's not an option. Wait a littel bit, keep producing your stuff and leave it on your hangars, prices will probably become interesting in a few days/weeks D: You don't understand, I buy the base materials and process them, so if prices go up it does not help me. I make profit on the price difference between lower and higher end goods. So unless higher end goods go up a lot more than lower end goods it won't matter for my type of PI. Judging from the planets around Jita there are a lot of other people doing pure production as well. Oh well! I do like these changes despite what Im saying about them. Obviously I cant do it anymore but destroyable offices is fun! Ferox #1
Ptraci 3 R Corporation 208	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:25:00 - [37] - Quote Kietay Ayari wrote: So unless higher end goods go up a lot more than lower end goods it won't matter for my type of PI. It's a fixed percentage, so prices will be going up evenly across the board. I wouldn't rush out to sell your broadcast nodes for 1 million each right now... Edit: Better yet - planetary launches are MORE expensive than the concord/interbus rates
Umega Solis Mensa 3	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:26:00 - [38] - Quote Ptraci wrote: Endovior wrote: Customs Offices do reinforce. If you can hold a POS, you should be able to hold a Customs Office. And if you can't hold a POS... well, you shouldn't be stockpiling your PI goo in the Customs Office, anyways. But holding a POS is different. A POS has guns and thus is (fairly) immune to small ships. And a system with sov has cyno jammers, so there will be no big ships until the cyno jammer is taken out. That means only one thing to defend in a system. Customs offices have no guns. So unless you're prepared to camp all your customs offices, prepare to run all over null sec responding to attack notifications... Stop Talking. That is part of the point. It adds another layer to large warfare. Hitting logistic transports can be next to impossible.. now there is an option to deliver repeated body blows before a right hook. Smaller groups have a new method to be a thorn in the side of a larger entity. Alliance A attacks Alliance B.. they hit a system hard, B has to respond full force. Smaller raids swarm in and start hammering down COs while A holds up B in large fight. POS are like peasants.. if they aren't fed, they in turn can't feed the war machine. Seige warfare 101.. starve them out. That's just the tip of the iceberg of strategies to employ. And anyone not smart enough to re-evalute the changes and continue to churn out profits, aren't simply smart enough to be doing PI anyway. But they'll continue, they are too stupid to stop. The never ending supply of ships below material cost is proof of this. There will be plenty of PI materials. People that can't afford their towers now, oh well.. don't deserve it anyway. It will eventually find an equalibrum, everything will be fine, the tax will be a footnote eventually.. pointless whining on something that improves the experince, adds layers and diversity, opporitunity to the wise, and extra pewpew.. so again.. Stop Talking.
Jita Alt666 595	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:28:00 - [39] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Jita Alt666 wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice Thank you for implementing a solid system. This is a nice example of risk being rewarded and risk aversion being shunned. Unless you own a POS is lowsec. Risk you always had AND higher operating cost. Win/win right? If you set up your own PCO's on the planets in your lowsec system, you are actually lowering your operating costs (and possibly opening an income stream from others) at increased risk.
Denidil The Graduates Morsus Mihi 218	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:30:00 - [40] - Quote by my calculations (and my Oracle fit) it takes 12 Oracles to break the tank (10k/s regen) of a POCO. time to reinforce = 8mil (shields that need to be removed)/(DPS-10,000) 12 x 900 dps oracles = 10800 dps 8,000,000/(10800-10000) = 8,000,000/800 = 10,000 seconds = 167 minutes = 2.8 hours on the other hand 20 x 900 dps oracles 18000 dps about 17 minutes MM Bombers, Best Bombers Remove Drone Poo.
Avila Cracko Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 128	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:33:00 - [41] - Quote Ptraci wrote: Kietay Ayari wrote: So unless higher end goods go up a lot more than lower end goods it won't matter for my type of PI. It's a fixed percentage, so prices will be going up evenly across the board. I wouldn't rush out to sell your broadcast nodes for 1 million each right now... Edit: Better yet - planetary launches are MORE expensive than the concord/interbus rates What??? what are rates of launchers compared to CO???
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 57	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:35:00 - [42] - Quote Denidil wrote: 10k/s regen I believe it's actually 1k/s
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 57	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:35:00 - [43] - Quote Avila Cracko wrote: What??? what are rates of launchers compared to CO??? Just slightly lower. At least slightly lower in a wormhole launching coolant. Didn't check anything else or anywhere else.
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 151	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:38:00 - [44] - Quote So, CCP Nullarbor and CCP Omen uses the stick method to force a game play element through... Good luck with that. Considering that trying to force people into a certain game style has never worked before, you are going to need all the luck you can get. Btw. screw booster production; I am now effectively losing ISK if I try to do that. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á
Soi Mala Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen 76	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:44:00 - [45] - Quote Jowen Datloran wrote: trying to force people into a certain game style has never worked before, you are going to need all the luck you can get. Welcome to the "sandbox"...
Jita Alt666 595	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:45:00 - [46] - Quote Jowen Datloran wrote: So, CCP Nullarbor and CCP Omen uses the stick method to force a game play element through... Good luck with that. Considering that trying to force people into a certain game style has never worked before, you are going to need all the luck you can get. Btw. screw booster production; I am now effectively losing ISK if I try to do that. I see a small stick and a big carrot.
Cloora APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate 35	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:49:00 - [47] - Quote Ptraci wrote: Cloora wrote: Come take out my POCOs then if you think it's nothing. I'm sure someone will. Small tower evictions happen all the time, and it doesn't take supercaps to do it. You don't get it do you? If they don't have supers we can fight. If they do have supers and support, oh well. That's EVE. PVP is what this game is about not risk free ISK CEO and Major ShareholderAPEX ConglomerateMaker of Starsi softdrinks and Torped-Os! Cereal http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 589	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:50:00 - [48] - Quote Jita Alt666 wrote: Jowen Datloran wrote: So, CCP Nullarbor and CCP Omen uses the stick method to force a game play element through... Good luck with that. Considering that trying to force people into a certain game style has never worked before, you are going to need all the luck you can get. Btw. screw booster production; I am now effectively losing ISK if I try to do that. I see a small stick and a big carrot. Sadly, for wormholes this is stick only. There's practically no benefits at all to wormholes... it's pure expense. You're not going to abuse your corp/allies enough with taxes to turn this into a business... at least not if you still want a corp or allies... so basically this is just an expense, wasted isk. Completely useless compared to the old system. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Deviana Sevidon Jades Falcon Guards 113	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:50:00 - [49] - Quote At the end of the day, taxes are just added to the cost of a product. Since lowsec PI will be dead within the next month and taxes are just added on top of the costs of keeping a POS running, the results will be felt by practically everyone who likes to use T2 and T3 ships and modules. The changes strike me as a less then smart move by the responsible developers.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:55:00 - [50] - Quote Jita Alt666 wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Jita Alt666 wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice Thank you for implementing a solid system. This is a nice example of risk being rewarded and risk aversion being shunned. Unless you own a POS is lowsec. Risk you always had AND higher operating cost. Win/win right? If you set up your own PCO's on the planets in your lowsec system, you are actually lowering your operating costs (and possibly opening an income stream from others) at increased risk. This only holds true if you make your own POS fuel. To be honest never dealt with it, but given trade volumes it would suggest there are alot of people who aren't. I can see them being rather livid that a part of the game they choose not to partake in is (potentially) causing a great change in the way they operate. They can start making their own, but necessitating POCO placement and defense as well as PI operation on those who don't want it just to maintain current costs just seems like a bad idea.
Turkatron 1	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:57:00 - [51] - Quote Posting in another **-thread with OP whining about "problems" documented well in advance of the patch release. If you people used the eve website for anything other than -posting about CCP features you perceive as problems, you would have known about this tax and ~shock~ **-posted about it before patch release.
Tahna Rouspel BWE Special Forces Rage Alliance 20	Posted - 2011.11.29 23:12:00 - [52] - Quote Denidil wrote: by my calculations (and my Oracle fit) it takes 12 Oracles to break the tank (10k/s regen) of a POCO. time to reinforce = 8mil (shields that need to be removed)/(DPS-10,000) 12 x 900 dps oracles = 10800 dps 8,000,000/(10800-10000) = 8,000,000/800 = 10,000 seconds = 167 minutes = 2.8 hours on the other hand 20 x 900 dps oracles 18000 dps about 17 minutes The POCO doesn't regenerate at 10,000 shield per second. It has 10,000,000 shield point and regenerate in 50,000 seconds. That's 200 shield per second. So it would take 12 Oracles a total of 13 minutes to reinforce a POCO.
Kal'ar Rinah Nadyr Heavy Industries 3	Posted - 2011.11.29 23:14:00 - [53] - Quote Turkatron wrote: Posting in another **-thread with OP whining about "problems" documented well in advance of the patch release. If you people used the eve website for anything other than -posting about CCP features you perceive as problems, you would have known about this tax and ~shock~ -posted about it before patch release. actually while the increased tax rate was well documented before the patch, the increase in items "taxable value" was not which you'd know if you used this thread for anything other than **-posting, amusing no?
Random Alternate State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2011.11.29 23:16:00 - [54] - Quote SpaceSquirrels wrote: It is ridiculous. I have all my PI in low sec and way way too much. Can't assemble your own if youre in a npc corp from my understanding or if in a small 5-10 man corp probably not going to happen. Guess we should just raise prices on everything then other will stop complaining about our PI tax complaining. Just needs to trickle down a bit. I love high prices, I just sell for 50% less than the lowest price x my 4 other alts. nom nom nom
Denidil The Graduates Morsus Mihi 218	Posted - 2011.11.29 23:23:00 - [55] - Quote Tahna Rouspel wrote: Denidil wrote: by my calculations (and my Oracle fit) it takes 12 Oracles to break the tank (10k/s regen) of a POCO. time to reinforce = 8mil (shields that need to be removed)/(DPS-10,000) 12 x 900 dps oracles = 10800 dps 8,000,000/(10800-10000) = 8,000,000/800 = 10,000 seconds = 167 minutes = 2.8 hours on the other hand 20 x 900 dps oracles 18000 dps about 17 minutes The POCO doesn't regenerate at 10,000 shield per second. It has 10,000,000 shield point and regenerate in 50,000 seconds. That's 200 shield per second. So it would take 12 Oracles a total of 13 minutes to reinforce a POCO. the person who told me the regen rate had it wrong then. i was surprised by how high it was. MM Bombers, Best Bombers Remove Drone Poo.
Ptraci 3 R Corporation 208	Posted - 2011.11.29 23:25:00 - [56] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: There's practically no benefits at all to wormholes... it's pure expense. Why? You'd think that if you're the only one in your wormhole it would make sense to pop the interbus customs offices and anchor your own, and set yourself a zero tax rate. Yeah it would be a PITA and a lot of up front expense, but after that no more tax. No one is going to go pop people's customs offices in wormholes unless they seriously plan on moving in.
Dalloway Jones Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 146	Posted - 2011.11.29 23:32:00 - [57] - Quote I would be completely down with the change if they had done something to make PI less mind numbingly horrible at the same time. They have made something that was a bit of a boring chore into more of a boring chore.
Endovior Brothers At Arms Intrepid Crossing 62	Posted - 2011.11.29 23:33:00 - [58] - Quote Turkatron wrote: Posting in another **-thread with OP whining about "problems" documented well in advance of the patch release. If you people used the eve website for anything other than -posting about CCP features you perceive as problems, you would have known about this tax and ~shock~ **-posted about it before patch release. Speaking as the OP... no, it wasn't properly documented. That's the whole point. Seeing as how I make my ISK off PI, I've been following the information on PI fairly closely. The tax rate changes were mentioned, but the base value changes were not. Not that I'm 'whining'; I've got the capital to put up PoCo's, so the long-term impact of all this is 'I make more ISK', which I'm not about to complain about. The hisec PI crowd? Yeah, they're getting screwed. I approve; less people doing PI in hisec also means more money for me.
Catlos JeminJees E.M.P. Industries Shadow of xXDEATHXx 33	Posted - 2011.11.29 23:40:00 - [59] - Quote i see this as an oportunity for Med to large sized high sec corps. They go to their nearest Low sec system and monopolize the POCO of that system. set the price at a half deacent rate and can make a **** tone of isk. I say med to large because they would have to be defended. This flows perfect with the great EVE tradition of the more risk you take the more money you make and the more money you can lose. For null bears like my self this is just a temporary nusance. that will be made up for in the end . Also i dont think the Price of PI will go up that much maybe at first but not for ever. From doing PI in Low sec to doing PI in null sec i can tell you that the majority of PI in the market comes from Null .(majority not all, befor you Trolls start up) . the leves of PI production are un matched in null or WH
Dbars Grinding Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2011.11.29 23:41:00 - [60] - Quote yay for the death of PI was a pain in the ass anyways.

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