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afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 676	Posted - 2015.01.16 15:09:52 - [91] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: Sladislov wrote: Kenrailae wrote: Lol. The counter to awoxing is to impose artificial restraints on the game is it? ha ha. Not kill the awoxer back? wow.... As if any of these highsec pubs have ever pvp'd before Good time to learn. Yes, let me try and kill someone behind a concord protected invincible logi wall which would take two dozen T3s to break. More to the point, there is no API trail on a a fresh toon - are they just banned from joining corps now? Those letting in people with "killboards a mile long" will certainly fall for other tactics so I honestly see no problem here. speaking of, I understood alt recycling was only bannable to avoid a SS issue - NOT to hide the toon history. I may be wrong, I've never done it.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2180	Posted - 2015.01.16 15:12:35 - [92] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: If thats what its really about, catering to the masses of carebears, then EVE has pulled/is going to pull an 'ultima online'. If i ever believe thats whats happening, i will be QQing. But you still havent said why YOU are in favour of removing it. You still havent answered my question. And I'm not going to, because I've answered this same question dozens of times and running over old ground makes me want to stick my **** in a blender. Thread reported for redundancy. Then it'd be appreciated if you didnt go round telling people they cant post in a thread when you are the one unwilling to bring anything to the table. k bye @afkalt already said, you dont need to make AWOXing a concordable offense to get rid of risk free RR. not to mention thats not at all why its being removed. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Sladislov Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 58	Posted - 2015.01.16 15:15:52 - [93] - Quote afkalt wrote: Kenrailae wrote: Sladislov wrote: Kenrailae wrote: Lol. The counter to awoxing is to impose artificial restraints on the game is it? ha ha. Not kill the awoxer back? wow.... As if any of these highsec pubs have ever pvp'd before Good time to learn. Yes, let me try and kill someone behind a concord protected invincible logi wall which would take two dozen T3s to break. More to the point, there is no API trail on a a fresh toon - are they just banned from joining corps now? Those letting in people with "killboards a mile long" will certainly fall for other tactics so I honestly see no problem here. speaking of, I understood alt recycling was only bannable to avoid a SS issue - NOT to hide the toon history. I may be wrong, I've never done it. Fresh toons aren't that easy to awox on because you usually on train them up a few weeks, I also 100% agree that neutral RR while you're corp killing should be given a suspect flag or at least be able to be shot by the corp, makes things a lot fairer -á-á-á-á-á-á Sladislov Director of Silly semantics -á-á-á-á-á-áBroksi Kurth -á-á xXxBlack LegionxXx
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 676	Posted - 2015.01.16 15:18:43 - [94] - Quote You can train up a dangerous stratios pilot in about a fortnight/three weeks (cant remember exactly), and thats massive overkill. @Daichi Yamato I'm aware of that, but currently the notion of fighting back is laughable. Plus it would be a nightmare logistically for non awoxing to start inheriting flags all over the place in the event you RR someone who accidentally shot a corpmate/webbed a buddy into warp. I still maintain nothing of value was lost - but something of value (newbs being ok to enter corps) was gained. Idiots will still die, people will still find interesting ways to kill people. It's being removed because a pretty small, niche plyer group were making GOOD player corp access all but impossible for new starts. We dont want new starts staying in NPC corps and we dont want new starts going to crappy corps. <13 days for the minimums for a full neut stratios with geckos. Plenty to trainwreck unsuspecting stuff in highsec.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2180	Posted - 2015.01.16 15:26:04 - [95] - Quote - Safety settings - i dont think AWOXing is not valuable. Adds responsibility and consequences to actions. - i think its going to be even harder to find a good corp. Theres going to be a flood of corps that just want players to pay corp tax and a flood of NPC corp players who will want the cheaper tax. Get wardecced? swap corp. Theres going to be thousands, and its not like they are going to reject you or even look at your app. Good corps get obscured after this change. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 676	Posted - 2015.01.16 15:35:17 - [96] - Quote We'll have to agree to disagree - tax evasion is best served as a one man corp thing anyway. I still disagree with consequences and responsibility - a clean alt can be lethal in a little over a fortnight. How can you see that coming? Why should someone trying to give a home to a new start be nailed to the wall for it? It's stupid. The only sensible option for risk mitigation is to NOT allow them in, ever. It's a straight up shutout to new guys. Note that prolific, same toon gankers are of course easy to spot but that fact it is literally impossible to catch a fresh rolled one....where's the reward to that risk? There are many ways dumb players will still get killed - duels, baited into fullspawned mission with tackle at 0, offering reps that suddenly stop as the room is triggered...loads of ways to get people killed. Just needs a little more creativity and allows attentive players a fighting chance at stopping it instead of a sucker punch they could literally never have seen coming.
Sladislov Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 58	Posted - 2015.01.16 15:45:11 - [97] - Quote Training up tons of one-month alts and then discarding them is a bannable offense. -á-á-á-á-á-á Sladislov Director of Silly semantics -á-á-á-á-á-áBroksi Kurth -á-á xXxBlack LegionxXx
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2184	Posted - 2015.01.16 15:56:16 - [98] - Quote To turn one of CCP's points back on itself, Why are people accepting new players if the risks arent worth the rewards? They arent being shut out. Quote: We'll have to agree to disagree EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 676	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:10:29 - [99] - Quote Sladislov wrote: Training up tons of one-month alts and then discarding them is a bannable offense. It is to avoid security status problems I do not know if that extends to awoxing - as I have never tried (recycling).
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1031	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:19:18 - [100] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Livonian wrote: ...words... Step your game up son. lol, do you have any idea to whom you are talking? Livonian's game is so far above yours that you have to take a space elevator into orbit to even catch a glimpse of him. I am sad to see awoxing go. It has been an integral part of the Eve-O universe for so long its hard to imagine the game without it. But I understand why CCP is making this decision. Clearly they want to increase new player retention. And getting your **** awoxed on day 12 doesn't typically help with that. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 328	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:19:41 - [101] - Quote afkalt wrote: Yes, let me try and kill someone behind a concord protected invincible logi wall which would take two dozen T3s to break. More to the point, there is no API trail on a a fresh toon - are they just banned from joining corps now? Those letting in people with "killboards a mile long" will certainly fall for other tactics so I honestly see no problem here. speaking of, I understood alt recycling was only bannable to avoid a SS issue - NOT to hide the toon history. I may be wrong, I've never done it. Oh My, I do believe we have a winner. FINALLY, one of you have actually listed problems: neutral RR IS a problem. Using Duel's to bait, IS a problem. THOSE are things that need to be fixed, especially when this crap goes on in or next too Noob systems. THIS stuff is a problem. Awoxing and ganking are NOT. No, no API trail on a fresh character is NOT a problem. Toon cycling IS a problem. Again, THIS is something that needs fixed, not the risk of letting new people into your corp. The Law is a point of View
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1031	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:23:10 - [102] - Quote I have no problem with duel baiting. You get a nice pop-up that asks "Do you want to do this?" click yes or no. I was in a DST in the Amarr gate once and got asked by some random. Clearly, no. If you actually want to tank-test or what have you, 1v1s are available through this method. Neut RR logi without consequences is ******** imo. They should get some sort of a flag so that the enemy of the person being repped can shoot them. Suspect flag sounds about right. Consequences need to be had. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 329	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:27:37 - [103] - Quote Soldarius wrote: I have no problem with duel baiting. You get a nice pop-up that asks "Do you want to do this?" click yes or no. I was in a DST in the Amarr gate once and got asked by some random. Clearly, no. If you actually want to tank-test or what have you, 1v1s are available through this method. Neut RR logi without consequences is ******** imo. They should get some sort of a flag so that the enemy of the person being repped can shoot them. Suspect flag sounds about right. Consequences need to be had. Duel bait in Hek, Rens, Jita, Amarr, etc all you want. A least there peeps tend to have a couple days behind them and are old enough to start learning the hard way. It's despicable to do so in Noob systems. I've sat there and watched it be done on my high sec alts. I think that is the only time I've reported anyone. The Law is a point of View
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 48	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:27:56 - [104] - Quote Make the option off by default (allowing in-PvP by default), so people who don't think or pay attention and just assume they're safe can still be punished for not paying attention to tools they're given. Soldarius wrote: Neut RR logi without consequences is ******** imo. They should get some sort of a flag so that the enemy of the person being repped can shoot them. Suspect flag sounds about right. Consequences need to be had. That's already implemented. Currently, if you repair someone with a suspect timer or a limited engagement timer, then you become suspect. Unfortunately, if someone aggresses that neutral logi (if it's on station, anyway), then the logi docks up and undocks in a combat ship and kills the person who aggressed him.
Sladislov Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 58	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:28:12 - [105] - Quote Besides, no real awoxer goes around looking for new players to blow them up. They're only in it for the shiny kills. -á-á-á-á-á-á Sladislov Director of Silly semantics -á-á-á-á-á-áBroksi Kurth -á-á xXxBlack LegionxXx
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 48	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:31:27 - [106] - Quote Sladislov wrote: Besides, no real awoxer goes around looking for new players to blow them up. They're only in it for the shiny kills. There's a whole article that showcased people who did it specifically to kill new players and not only shiny kills. http://www.themittani.com/features/eve-scams-schemes-10-hour-hero
Sladislov Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 58	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:36:37 - [107] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Sladislov wrote: Besides, no real awoxer goes around looking for new players to blow them up. They're only in it for the shiny kills. There's a whole article that showcased people who did it specifically to kill new players and not only shiny kills. http://www.themittani.com/features/eve-scams-schemes-10-hour-hero "There are people in this game who are not playing for monetary gain. TheyGÇÖre not playing for killmails. TheyGÇÖre here to blow you up because (a) itGÇÖs funny and (b) **** you." edit im bad ye this was 5 years ago, im not sure if jihadsquad is still infiltrating corps to do this -á-á-á-á-á-á Sladislov Director of Silly semantics -á-á-á-á-á-áBroksi Kurth -á-á xXxBlack LegionxXx
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 330	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:39:03 - [108] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Sladislov wrote: Besides, no real awoxer goes around looking for new players to blow them up. They're only in it for the shiny kills. There's a whole article that showcased people who did it specifically to kill new players and not only shiny kills. http://www.themittani.com/features/eve-scams-schemes-10-hour-hero "There are people in this game who are not playing for monetary gain. TheyGÇÖre not playing for killmails. TheyGÇÖre here to blow you up because (a) itGÇÖs funny and (b) **** you." ha. that article is not about people who do it specifically to kill new players. That article is about killing players for fun and/or profit. That just happens to be easier on newer players, as a general rule, but certainly not always. EDIT: more specifically suicide ganking, like the guy above me said. The Law is a point of View
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 676	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:43:28 - [109] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Make the option off by default (allowing in-PvP by default), so people who don't think or pay attention and just assume they're safe can still be punished for not paying attention to tools they're given. Soldarius wrote: Neut RR logi without consequences is ******** imo. They should get some sort of a flag so that the enemy of the person being repped can shoot them. Suspect flag sounds about right. Consequences need to be had. That's already implemented. Currently, if you repair someone with a suspect timer or a limited engagement timer, then you become suspect. Unfortunately, if someone aggresses that neutral logi (if it's on station, anyway), then the logi docks up and undocks in a combat ship and kills the person who aggressed him. Doesn't work for awoxxing. No flags happen. RR sits behind concord.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2184	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:43:55 - [110] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Sladislov wrote: Besides, no real awoxer goes around looking for new players to blow them up. They're only in it for the shiny kills. There's a whole article that showcased people who did it specifically to kill new players and not only shiny kills. http://www.themittani.com/features/eve-scams-schemes-10-hour-hero "There are people in this game who are not playing for monetary gain. TheyGÇÖre not playing for killmails. TheyGÇÖre here to blow you up because (a) itGÇÖs funny and (b) **** you." new players? where? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 464	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:51:51 - [111] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Sladislov wrote: Besides, no real awoxer goes around looking for new players to blow them up. They're only in it for the shiny kills. There's a whole article that showcased people who did it specifically to kill new players and not only shiny kills. http://www.themittani.com/features/eve-scams-schemes-10-hour-hero "There are people in this game who are not playing for monetary gain. TheyGÇÖre not playing for killmails. TheyGÇÖre here to blow you up because (a) itGÇÖs funny and (b) **** you." New players are not the target of awoxing. I collected all the highsec awoxing kills as I desribed in the GD thread and you can see the average age of an awox victim is over three years in the game. Only a handful of new players get caught up in awoxes which makes sense as you are after juicier targets if you go to the trouble of training a spy and infiltrating a corp. This change only makes it safer for these established players with assets, and does nothing for new players that don't even know what awoxing is. Hopefully it makes these established corps more willing to take on new players, but it will also increase the number of failcorps and scam corps trying to attract new players for tax farming. It's not clear to me that this change helps new players at all. Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10 is a good idea.
Kane Ceres University of Caille Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:17:23 - [112] - Quote Corps already have more than enough tools to avoid being awoxed 99% of the time. If you accept someone with a mile long corp history - you deserve to be awoxed. If you accept someone with a blank app and no API check - you deserve to be awoxed. If you accept someone with lots of blue on blue on their killboard - YOU DESERVE TO BE AWOXED. With the kick at downtime feature the damage an awoxer can do is harshly limited. All this does is protect lazy people who are not willing to vet their applicants.
Mike Azariah The Scope Gallente Federation 2324	Posted - 2015.01.16 19:21:07 - [113] - Quote It was a good fix to a dumb rule. The switch to turn it on/off removes the only hesitation I had because of the effect a blanket rules would have on corp free-for-alls and RvB. Nothing I have read, here, has made me think otherwise but I will follow this thread looking for diamonds in the mud. As to a tax to have it on? No. I would be willing to consider having a tax or fee everytime you want to CHANGE the settingt excluding the first time when it is set. m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
Livonian Kaesong Kosmonauts 17	Posted - 2015.01.16 19:35:33 - [114] - Quote Mike Azariah wrote: It was a good fix to a dumb rule. The switch to turn it on/off removes the only hesitation I had because of the effect a blanket rules would have on corp free-for-alls and RvB. Nothing I have read, here, has made me think otherwise but I will follow this thread looking for diamonds in the mud. As to a tax to have it on? No. I would be willing to consider having a tax or fee everytime you want to CHANGE the settingt excluding the first time when it is set. m RIP decisions with consequence.
Steppa Musana Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 44	Posted - 2015.01.16 19:46:11 - [115] - Quote Last time I checked, the most famous awox in a while was against JT Clone Ares in stealing his alliance. In fact this is always the case. Pick any time period, the top stories on awoxing are never blowing up a corp member in highsec. This doesnt change anything except forcing pusses to take some risk while shooting corp member ships. But like eveyr other group of sissies, they whine to CCP instead of dealing with the change. I know guys, having some ACTUAL risk while shooting someone, it sounds all scary and stuff. Deal with it. Why does it help new players? Because it makes it far far easier for them to be accepted into a corp.
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 3274	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:25:55 - [116] - Quote Kane Ceres wrote: Corps already have more than enough tools to avoid being awoxed 99% of the time. If you accept someone with a mile long corp history - you deserve to be awoxed. If you accept someone with a blank app and no API check - you deserve to be awoxed. If you accept someone with lots of blue on blue on their killboard - YOU DESERVE TO BE AWOXED. With the kick at downtime feature the damage an awoxer can do is harshly limited. All this does is protect lazy people who are not willing to vet their applicants. If you accept a character with no employment history beyond their initial NPC corp and nothing suspicious on their API, do you deserve to be awoxed?
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 330	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:51:19 - [117] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: If you accept a character with no employment history beyond their initial NPC corp and nothing suspicious on their API, do you deserve to be awoxed? If you do even basic observation, it's usually not too hard to spot the real noobs from the pretenders. The Law is a point of View
Swiftstrike1 Swiftstrike Incorporated 858	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:59:37 - [118] - Quote Why is there so much concern about the removal of friendly fire? You will still be able to shoot anybody you like in hisec, but you will have to accept the consequences of breaking the law (i.e. Concord). You will still be able to infiltrate corps and use your roles to empty their corporate wallets and hangars You will still be able to con people into "exploring this wormhole" You can still offer to jump their ships to the other side of hisec in your JF/carrier if they bring them to lowsec first In my honest opinion, corp friendly fire has been a bug in the code for nearly 12 years and needs to be removed ASAP. Everyone else in EVE has to work hard to achieve their goals so why should hisec awoxing be such an easy "career"? Targeting, Sensors and ECM Overhaul
Kane Ceres University of Caille Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:01:56 - [119] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Kane Ceres wrote: Corps already have more than enough tools to avoid being awoxed 99% of the time. If you accept someone with a mile long corp history - you deserve to be awoxed. If you accept someone with a blank app and no API check - you deserve to be awoxed. If you accept someone with lots of blue on blue on their killboard - YOU DESERVE TO BE AWOXED. With the kick at downtime feature the damage an awoxer can do is harshly limited. All this does is protect lazy people who are not willing to vet their applicants. If you accept a character with no employment history beyond their initial NPC corp and nothing suspicious on their API, do you deserve to be awoxed? This only works once and there is almost always something that you can use to tell its an alt. It's just a matter of if people are actually going to put in the effort to protect their corpmates. The other problem I have with this change and the people saying its a good thing are people that have never tried both sides. I have been on both sides. I have been awoxed and have awoxed and the community for it is great and very supportive. I haven't done it since the last time I played but I don't understand how people with no idea about the playstyle. CCP has given people all the tools they need and now people need to get off their ass and protect their corps from awoxing or just pay some tax so that since they have no risk anymore they have less reward.
Livonian Kaesong Kosmonauts 18	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:25:09 - [120] - Quote Swiftstrike1 wrote: Why is there so much concern about the removal of friendly fire? You will still be able to shoot anybody you like in hisec, but you will have to accept the consequences of breaking the law (i.e. Concord). You will still be able to infiltrate corps and use your roles to empty their corporate wallets and hangars You will still be able to con people into "exploring this wormhole" You can still offer to jump their ships to the other side of hisec in your JF/carrier if they bring them to lowsec first In my honest opinion, corp friendly fire has been a bug in the code for nearly 12 years and needs to be removed ASAP. Everyone else in EVE has to work hard to achieve their goals so why should hisec awoxing be such an easy "career"? Better remove J-space poses then too since they are a bug. Oh wait emergent gameplay. You sure sound like someone who has never highsec awoxed before. At the end game it requires multiple accounts with heavy training into logistics and pvp, as well as the knowledge of how to fly ships in pvp and find others in space. In my case I spent years in nullsec "Getting Good" along with ~600m in ships to set up my dude. If you want to talk about easy careers why don't we look at highsec incursions? 80m-200m/hr on the regular, extremely small risk for competent players and you can do it while watching netflix.

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