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Annette Nolen Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 39	Posted - 2015.01.19 17:15:42 - [1] - Quote First and foremost, this is a suggestion to mitigate the all or nothing bumping meta in highsec right now. Obviously, look who I work for. But it's not ONLY for that. I'm proposing a "Warp Assist Module", probably med slot, with fitting requirements similar to webs/scrams. Despite having the name "Assist" in there, I think it should be an offensive module, for various reasons I'll cover. What it does: adds 0.5pts warp core stability to the target and removes alignment requirement for entering warp; once you are at 75%+ speed you will enter warp regardless of alignment assuming you are not negative WC points. It does this by overriding CONCORD safety mechanisms in the target; as a result, target will land at a random distance from the target warp location, say somewhere in a spherical shell between 25km and 100km of the target (specifics not too relevant, but basically you should not be able to instant dock/gate jump after using this thing). Like a cyno/bastion, it should set velocity of the activating ship to 0 and root that ship in place. Range similar to webs/scrams; 10k or so. It should have a minimum 30s cycle time before the effect lands on the target; I'd say starting at 60s with a skill-based 5s per level reduction. (An alternative approach is to make it use the hacking mini-game instead, since you are hacking the ship's CONCORD warp safety mechanisms). Because this is classified offensive, it would be in the ECM category. That means ships immune to ECM cannot benefit from this (supercaps I'm looking at you). Further, neutrals on field in highsec cannot intervene in bumping ops without incurring a GCC. I would classify it under the propulsion jamming category so inties get the regular bonuses for this. Why is this needed? Well, primarily, escaping a bump in a freighter is basically impossible once caught by a competent bumper. You are 100% trapped. Your only option is to muster a gank fleet to pop the bumper. I would like there to be a LEGAL mechanism to turn bumping into a less black and white activity. But but but... you can already avoid high-sec bumping by X, Y, Z...! Yeah... no. Perfect intel, scouting, and webbing isn't a 100% effective way to avoid being trapped by a bumper. There are two systems in high-sec EVE that cannot be avoided BY DESIGN and everyone knows this and how to lock 'em down. Nevermind that a bumping mach can outwarp a freighter and get ahead of it pretty easily regardless of where it's headed. Most importantly, those are options to AVOID bumping. Not to COUNTER bumping. This is a mechanism intended to provide a gameplay mechanic to counter bumping, as there currently is none. Doesn't this nerf bumping? Not really. The module intentionally has many limitations built in that high-sec gank/bump fleets SHOULD be able to overcome. At worst they can gank the assist ships if they can't manage to bump the target 10k out of range within the 30-60s cycle time. However, it requires them to work a bit harder to keep a ship bumped, and it gives a valid legal option for escaping bumps that doesn't require mustering your own gank fleet. Is this only for bumping? No, the +0.5 WCS should provide interesting gameplay options for lowsec gatecamps and other scenarios too. Anything that adds dynamics to pointing things should make infinite point HICs more fun to use, particularly in lowsec. And a whole generation of hero tackle can now also be hero untackle.
HiddenPorpoise Under Dark Sins of our Fathers 311	Posted - 2015.01.19 17:32:48 - [2] - Quote If you have someone following a freighter around with this wouldn't they be better off with a cruor or daredevil?
Annette Nolen Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 39	Posted - 2015.01.19 17:50:42 - [3] - Quote HiddenPorpoise wrote: If you have someone following a freighter around with this wouldn't they be better off with a cruor or daredevil? No because once you are actively being bumped, webbing does nothing.
HiddenPorpoise Under Dark Sins of our Fathers 311	Posted - 2015.01.19 18:04:01 - [4] - Quote But a freighter coming out of a warp 25-100km off at an odd angle is just setting up for another bump.
Annette Nolen Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 39	Posted - 2015.01.19 18:10:42 - [5] - Quote HiddenPorpoise wrote: But a freighter coming out of a warp 25-100km off at an odd angle is just setting up for another bump. Exactly. At this point you have a fair chance to get your support webber there. But so too do the bumpers have the chance to guess which celestial you warped to and get their mach on you first. It's intentional that it should not be a clean getaway; you'll still need to then escape with a proper pinpoint warp. More chances for bumpers to win, more "real" gameplay all around. (same arguments apply for any ship trying to escape, not just freighter bumping; e.g. a BS that escapes points with "hero untackle" in this manner will still be vulnerable to fast opposing inties figuring out where they warped to, landing there first, and simply re-pointing them... but now the battlefield is fluid) I have no desire to remove or totally nerf the ability to bump and gank freighters in highsec. I just want a legal mechanism to counter the act of bumping that makes the outcome no longer 100% certain in favor of the bumper. Sure, avoidance is great, but bumping as a mechanic has no actual mechanical counter, which is lopsided.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 14551	Posted - 2015.01.19 18:17:01 - [6] - Quote A web ship escorting a freighter Already does this job. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
HiddenPorpoise Under Dark Sins of our Fathers 311	Posted - 2015.01.19 18:19:15 - [7] - Quote Annette Nolen wrote: Exactly. At this point you have a fair chance to get your support webber there. That's not what happens when you web a cap as it's leaving warp; the issue gets compounded and it takes about 3 cycles to get the thing back on course, by which point's it's been bumped again.
Oscae Kitchen Sink Kapitals 19	Posted - 2015.01.19 18:34:01 - [8] - Quote Annette Nolen wrote: Why is this needed? Well, primarily, escaping a bump in a freighter is basically impossible once caught by a competent bumper. You are 100% trapped. I think this sums it up nicely. If you have someone doing their job and doing it well, there should be no 'get out of jail free card' that just lets you bypass their effort. It's like having a module that makes your ship survive when alpha'd. At that point, someone has done their job of alphaing you well, but you didn't like it, so just decided it would be good if it didn't happen to you. For this reason, unless you can tell me exactly how no one who bumps other ships will be butthurt if this is implemented, I can't support this product and/or service
Annette Nolen Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 39	Posted - 2015.01.19 18:34:26 - [9] - Quote baltec1 wrote: A web ship escorting a freighter Already does this job. Nope, it doesn't. Webbing is an avoidance technique. Once bumped, webbing is useless. Further, webbing, like all the other avoidance techniques, is not a magic bullet. Support webbers are not 100% perfect for avoidance. Further further, the module is not ONLY for countering bumping. As described it's also a whole new gameplay counter mechanic to tackling in general. HiddenPorpoise wrote: That's not what happens when you web a cap as it's leaving warp; the issue gets compounded and it takes about 3 cycles to get the thing back on course, by which point's it's been bumped again. Correct, there's no guarantee you will escape from the second location. Webbers can help here, just depending on your random alignment at the time. If you happen to drop out roughly aligned with something a support webber will absolutely help you get from 25% to 75% more quickly. If you aren't pointed in a good direction though, then yes, it might not be very helpful at all. Alternatively you might have a second warp assist alt there ready to throw you in a new direction, ideally one the bumpers don't get a chance to see. Regardless, the fact that it's not a perfect escape technique is, again, intentional. It's supposed to be balanced, and that means the aggressors should have a chance to re-acquire you as a target even after using this module, which they do. But it's no longer 100% certain either way who's is going to come out on top. Hence, gameplay.
Oscae Kitchen Sink Kapitals 19	Posted - 2015.01.19 18:35:10 - [10] - Quote Double post
Annette Nolen Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 39	Posted - 2015.01.19 18:42:24 - [11] - Quote Oscae wrote: If you have someone doing their job and doing it well, there should be no 'get out of jail free card' that just lets you bypass their effort. It's like having a module that makes your ship survive when alpha'd. At that point, someone has done their job of alphaing you well, but you didn't like it, so just decided it would be good if it didn't happen to you. There is a hard counter to being alpha'd; it's called buffer tank. Sure there's an upper limit, but you CAN fit to counter alpha strikes, especially if that alpha is coming from a single ship. Nevermind all the piloting options, depending on ship sizes, etc. In short there is no such thing as a 100% certain alpha strike. There is no mechanical counter to being bumped by a single ship. The only option is to avoid it in the first place, which isn't a counter at all. There are very few 100% certain traps/mechanics in EVE and those that exist tend to annoy people. This is one of those situations where a relatively balanced module can be introduced to remove the 100% certainty. Lastly, the module as described is not even close to a "get out of jail free" card. It's a "here's a lockpick, good luck getting out of jail" card.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 14552	Posted - 2015.01.19 20:13:53 - [12] - Quote Annette Nolen wrote: baltec1 wrote: A web ship escorting a freighter Already does this job. Nope, it doesn't. Webbing is an avoidance technique. Once bumped, webbing is useless. Thats the counter, you enter warp so fast they cant bump you. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Nolak Ataru Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC 587	Posted - 2015.01.19 20:52:47 - [13] - Quote Get webber buddy in Daredevil to burn 150+ km in the direction they're bumping you. Warp to him. Tada! Your freighter is safe(ish).
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 679	Posted - 2015.01.19 20:59:38 - [14] - Quote Oscae wrote: Annette Nolen wrote: Why is this needed? Well, primarily, escaping a bump in a freighter is basically impossible once caught by a competent bumper. You are 100% trapped. I think this sums it up nicely. If you have someone doing their job and doing it well, there should be no 'get out of jail free card' that just lets you bypass their effort. It's like having a module that makes your ship survive when alpha'd. At that point, someone has done their job of alphaing you well, but you didn't like it, so just decided it would be good if it didn't happen to you. For this reason, unless you can tell me exactly how no one who bumps other ships will be butthurt if this is implemented, I can't support this product and/or service The counterpoint to this is NO-ONE should be able to deprive a pilot of control of their vessel without some manner of combat flag applying. Bumpers and their "rights", as it were, have no traction with me until this is the case. If bumping is to be held in the same regard and have similar protections to straight up ganking, alphaing, hard tackling with a module etc then it is required to flag up in the same way otherwise it should remain a very much second class citizen in the pecking order. Ed: This idea at least need a friend and if a bumper wants to stop them.....fit a point. Plenty easy to counter.
Oscae Kitchen Sink Kapitals 20	Posted - 2015.01.19 21:16:00 - [15] - Quote afkalt wrote: Oscae wrote: Annette Nolen wrote: Why is this needed? Well, primarily, escaping a bump in a freighter is basically impossible once caught by a competent bumper. You are 100% trapped. I think this sums it up nicely. If you have someone doing their job and doing it well, there should be no 'get out of jail free card' that just lets you bypass their effort. It's like having a module that makes your ship survive when alpha'd. At that point, someone has done their job of alphaing you well, but you didn't like it, so just decided it would be good if it didn't happen to you. For this reason, unless you can tell me exactly how no one who bumps other ships will be butthurt if this is implemented, I can't support this product and/or service The counterpoint to this is NO-ONE should be able to deprive a pilot of control of their vessel without some manner of combat flag applying. Bumpers and their "rights", as it were, have no traction with me until this is the case. If bumping is to be held in the same regard and have similar protections to straight up ganking, alphaing, hard tackling with a module etc then it is required to flag up in the same way otherwise it should remain a very much second class citizen in the pecking order. Ed: This idea at least need a friend and if a bumper wants to stop them.....fit a point. Plenty easy to counter. There is no way to balance this though, the Jita undock would be a massacre as hundreds of innocent pilots were volleyed of the field by the ever indifferent CONCORD, or if we go the suspect flag route, fleets of Tornadoes camping outside to blap anyone undocking with a timer whilst remaining in the law. But I digress, this is a thread about anti ganker/bumper 'win' buttons as it were, not wether or not bumping is morraly wrong :P
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 680	Posted - 2015.01.19 21:34:37 - [16] - Quote I agree. Most elegant idea I've had is no bump without lock. Bump locked, flag up. Imperfect, but better...I think. Anyway, point is I don't think in the current metagame bumping is to be placed on a pedestal to protect and this idea (with some tweaks) has merit and is better than many other ideas
Nolak Ataru Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC 587	Posted - 2015.01.19 21:47:06 - [17] - Quote Bumping is used to keep capitals and supers unaligned and kept apart from each other to remove the ability to rep or fire. It is a perfectly valid mechanic, and if your freighter with 20b of loot is getting bumped, you can kiss it goodbye and next time don't move so much in a single freighter.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 680	Posted - 2015.01.19 22:15:55 - [18] - Quote Nolak Ataru wrote: Bumping is used to keep capitals and supers unaligned and kept apart from each other to remove the ability to rep or fire. It is a perfectly valid mechanic, and if your freighter with 20b of loot is getting bumped, you can kiss it goodbye and next time don't move so much in a single freighter. This will do exactly zero for a hictor pointed, or otherwise bubbled, capital ship. It remains a valid mechanic with this mod/concept.
Annette Nolen Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 41	Posted - 2015.01.19 22:53:41 - [19] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Annette Nolen wrote: baltec1 wrote: A web ship escorting a freighter Already does this job. Nope, it doesn't. Webbing is an avoidance technique. Once bumped, webbing is useless. Thats the counter, you enter warp so fast they cant bump you. So you are officially agreeing that there is NO mechanics counter to being bumped at the moment? None? It is 100% effective once initiated, and that the only valid counters in the game right now are, in fact, avoidance techniques to ensure bumping never begins and not actual counters to the mechanic of bumping itself? Just clarifying.
Annette Nolen Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 41	Posted - 2015.01.19 22:57:49 - [20] - Quote Nolak Ataru wrote: Get webber buddy in Daredevil to burn 150+ km in the direction they're bumping you. Warp to him. Tada! Your freighter is safe(ish). I've never once had the EVE client accurately report my vector during bumping. There's no way to tell "the direction they're bumping me" because my facing moves around randomly. If you repeatedly CTRL-SPACE your ship during bumping you can get the client to update your true vector more frequently, which you will see results in your ship "snapping" to new facings on the fly, EVEN BETWEEN BUMPS (e.g. not immediately following a drastic change induced by a bump). Bottom line is that the client does NOT provide accurate piloting info in this scenario. Any technique dependent on manual piloting solutions like the one you describe is impossible to perform with anything but luck.
Annette Nolen Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 41	Posted - 2015.01.19 23:04:39 - [21] - Quote Nolak Ataru wrote: Bumping is used to keep capitals and supers unaligned and kept apart from each other to remove the ability to rep or fire. It is a perfectly valid mechanic, and if your freighter with 20b of loot is getting bumped, you can kiss it goodbye and next time don't move so much in a single freighter. Did you actually read the suggestion? Absolutely nothing in my proposal prevents the gameplay of bumping caps out of RR range. It gives the opposing fleet one possible counter which should be trivial for the bumping fleet to shut down easily; blap the immobile ship waiting 35s for his assist module to cycle (EDIT: or even simpler, just infinipoint the target cap). As to the second point, any large ship can be bumped regardless of what they're carrying. You're talking about avoidance yet again (don't be a target). I'm talking about adding an honest to god gameplay mechanic that actually provides a gameplay counter to active bumping as it occurs. Not guaranteed, not OP, and certainly not a free "I win" button. Just an active counter that turns bumping from being a perfectly effective mechanic into something that is no longer 100% certain.
Oscae Kitchen Sink Kapitals 21	Posted - 2015.01.19 23:25:32 - [22] - Quote Annette Nolen wrote: As to the second point, any large ship can be bumped regardless of what they're carrying. You're talking about avoidance yet again (don't be a target). I'm talking about adding an honest to god gameplay mechanic that actually provides a gameplay counter to active bumping as it occurs. Let's look at why people are bumped and subsequenlty ganked 1) you are autopiloting 2) you are carrying more value than is necassary/safe 3) you are pissing people off in local 4)a combination of the above 5)gankers gonna gank We don't need new mods and gameplay mechanics if you got ganked once too often trying to autopilot officer mods into Jita, don't be a target and you won't need to worry about being bumped/ganked. Yes it's avoidance, but if you can avoid it, why wouldn't you?
5pitf1re 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 6	Posted - 2015.01.19 23:34:40 - [23] - Quote Just get a webbing friend before getting bumped. If your webbing friend is not pants on head ******** it will be virtually impossible to get your freighter bumped.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 684	Posted - 2015.01.19 23:40:36 - [24] - Quote To be fair I'm preeeeeeetty damned sure RFF know about webbing. Only just noticed OP corp, interesting.
Annette Nolen Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 41	Posted - 2015.01.19 23:42:01 - [25] - Quote Oscae wrote: Yes it's avoidance, but if you can avoid it, why wouldn't you? There is no perfect avoidance technique. Addressing all of the things you listed does nothing to guarantee the avoidance of bumping. You can and will be bumped while flying as safely as feasible in a freighter in high-sec. You can and will be bumped even if you are empty, scouted the chokepoint ahead, brought a webber, fit 3 istabs, and have full nomads in your head. At which point you will be locked down with 100% effectiveness and no potential counter. You can try to deflect from the issue all you want, but at its heart this is a suggestion to provide a mechanical counter to the mechanics of bumping in a way that does not remove it from the game or negate its many varied and valid uses. I'm not sure why anyone would be arguing that a 100% effective tactic should be allowed to remain in EVE with no counters of any kind, except I guess those who have a vested interest in making sure the mechanic remains OP. Honestly the discussion around the impact on bumping is pretty well played out. I'm more interested to hear thoughts on the +0.5 WCS aspect of it at this point and if people think it would lead to "hero untackle" becoming a thing in fleet warfare, the use of inifipoint hics in subcap lowsec fights, etc.
Annette Nolen Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 41	Posted - 2015.01.19 23:47:53 - [26] - Quote 5pitf1re wrote: Just get a webbing friend before getting bumped. If your webbing friend is not pants on head handicapped (seriously, that's considered profane?) it will be virtually impossible to get your freighter bumped. It takes a minimum of two webbers to guarantee one will be available on every gate owing to the weapons timer. One webber is insufficient and leaves a freighter open to bumping at some point on shorter warps. And if those two webbers are not both perfect Rapier pilots, there can and will be gates where there is plenty of window for a bumper to get there first. Plus, webbers can be ganked too. Which is fine, I have no problem with that, but popping a webber should not allow an attacker to transition the mechanics into something that is now 100% in their favor. And again, this is all focusing on avoidance. Avoidance is great; I'm not asking for more avoidance techniques. I'm proposing a mechanical counter to the actual mechanics of active bumping. As it is, in high-sec, once bumping is initiated it is 100% effective. You think 100% effective tactics are healthy for EVE?
5pitf1re 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 7	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:13:15 - [27] - Quote I'm not saying the mechanics are not broken. I'm saying that you really have to do it proper wrong to get bumped. Been doing this many many times with only one pilot.
Ice Dolly GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy 0	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:16:28 - [28] - Quote Oscae wrote: Annette Nolen wrote: As to the second point, any large ship can be bumped regardless of what they're carrying. You're talking about avoidance yet again (don't be a target). I'm talking about adding an honest to god gameplay mechanic that actually provides a gameplay counter to active bumping as it occurs. Let's look at why people are bumped and subsequenlty ganked 1) you are autopiloting 2) you are carrying more value than is necassary/safe 3) you are pissing people off in local 4)a combination of the above 5)gankers gonna gank We don't need new mods and gameplay mechanics if you got ganked once too often trying to autopilot officer mods into Jita, don't be a target and you won't need to worry about being bumped/ganked. Yes it's avoidance, but if you can avoid it, why wouldn't you? I have been bumped for none of these reasons, in empty ships. I have been bumped just because I showed up. So the bumper decided to just bump away. What is being proposed here is to have a tool to deal with the bumping but still allowing interaction after the jump away. The way it is now, as Annette Nolan states and it is true, once you get into a bumping situation, that is pretty much it unless they either get a ganking squad or they get bored bumping and abandon the activity. How is that fair game play? Just asking!!!
Annette Nolen Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 43	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:25:33 - [29] - Quote 5pitf1re wrote: I'm not saying the mechanics are not broken. I'm saying that you really have to do it proper wrong to get bumped. Been doing this many many times with only one pilot. Yay for being lucky, I guess. Your counter-argument is to leave a broken mechanic in EVE because it hasn't yet personally affected you? The hilarity of this suggestion is that this will impact almost none of the current freighter bumping/ganking. Most pilots will still be AFK and therefore unable to use this option. The fact that empty JFs are still getting bumped and ganked even though they literally have a more powerful "I win" button than what this module proposes is clear evidence that this will do nothing to stop the long term trend of freighter bumping/ganking. Which is fine by me. Philosophically speaking, the CODE. crowd should be 100% in support of this proposed module. It provides active, attentive pilots a non-trivial, not guaranteed counter to bumping. It does nothing to help AFK pilots, and is certainly not a sufficiently reliable escape plan that it suddenly makes it smart to haul 20B through high-sec.
Oscae Kitchen Sink Kapitals 23	Posted - 2015.01.20 00:34:03 - [30] - Quote Annette Nolen wrote: Oscae wrote: Yes it's avoidance, but if you can avoid it, why wouldn't you? Addressing all of the things you listed does nothing to guarantee the avoidance of bumping. You can and will be bumped while flying as safely as feasible in a freighter in high-sec. You can and will be bumped even if you are empty, scouted the chokepoint ahead, brought a webber, fit 3 istabs, and have full nomads in your head. At which point you will be locked down with 100% effectiveness and no potential counter. Look at the last item on the list Oscae wrote: 5)gankers gonna gank Sometimes, sht happens and people blow you up, there's really not much you can do about that, you consent to non-consensual PvP when you undock, first rule of EvE. Annette Nolen wrote:* You can try to deflect from the issue all you want, Alright let's talk about non consensual bumping then. Your proposed module sounds good for when you are being bumped for no reason, the bumper in question is not looking to gank you, just to ruin your day, in which case, yes, it is unfair that a 1 day old pilot can lock your fully trained ship down with minimal effort. However, what happens when an organised group of people get together and make an effort to bump you out of align to gank you. Your mod now makes all of their hard work redundant as you disregard physics and slingshot yourself to the nearest celestial. Sure they can follow you, but what's to say you're not already aligning back to gate with a webber freind to speed things up? How can your proposal help in the first situation but not be a pain to balance for the second?

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