for a new player, 8 days is a long time.

8 days,,,, is a long time ?

i don't understand exactly what you want? you think 8 days of training is the difference in players sticking around or not?

you really believe this?

i'm not whining about any % difference.

i'm just pointing out that new players shouldn't be forced to train things suboptimally due to simply being new to the game and that alone should be enough of an argument for wanting the attribute system revamped at minimum, and removed at best.

actually, all we've proven is that i'm right.

new players, because they're new are forced to suffer lower training times because of the range of skills they need.

For example, double-clicking in space to steer your ship is clearly explained in the initial tutorial, before the career agents. But, the majority of new players miss it, because they're focused on interacting, not reading. It's right up in front of them in black and white, but my personal straw poll says that 100% of them (+/- 0%) miss it.

It's easy to say that one should overhaul the new player experience to make the introduction to the game more about doing things and less about reading blocks of text, but that's spectacularly hard to execute (not that the folks working on the new player experience aren't trying!) -- particularly when the basic game mechanics are as complicated as EVE's.

again with the forced. did you never think it might designed that way for a reason, ffs.

and you are whining about 5%

Based on what logic?

There's also the matter of value for your sub fee. If you train slower, you're receiving less SP value for it.

8 days can also be especially painful if it's a prereq for something else, that has to be suffered.

i'm not whining about 5% at all, i'm not even whining. i just stated a fact that was called a "lie" then proved to be a truth.

sure it might be intentional; i'm also saying that intentional reason is stupid, especially in the climate of trying to improve new player retention.



not logic; fact, you know the fact in the post that quite obviously pointed out you either train 8 days slower or blow 3 remaps to achieve the same level of sp/hour us older players enjoy because we don't have to worry about training off remap support skills any more.

****, pretty sure it was you who even presented the proof. how quickly you forget.

for someone that wants nothing you're sure pushing the agenda here.

8 days,,, ffs

I think we're forgetting how serious the effects of attributes can be on the game. Jita and Amarr... influenced by the Achura stat distribution that used to drive character selection for a long time. That's been changed, but the momentum of Jita is a juggernaut at this point.

I mentioned it before, but when it comes to something like attributes and implant costs, there's no way to know how else players might behave if it was different.

The example of Jita and Achura's popularity is kind of important because it involves the same mechanic, of attributes and SP accumulation. I can't tell the future, but I'm willing to say I'm sure we'll find that EVE was gimped as a result of how attributes, remaps, and implants impinged on gameplay.

not logic; fact, you know the fact in the post that quite obviously pointed out you either train 8 days slower or blow 3 remaps to achieve the same level of sp/hour us older players enjoy because we don't have to worry about training off remap support skills any more.

****, pretty sure it was you who even presented the proof. how quickly you forget.

My personal take on learning implants is that they should be removed. If I want to spend ISK on hardwirings or pirate sets which improve my characters ability in PvP, that is a meaningful choice that has a varying impact depending on how much I want to spend.

Training Cybernetics V and dropping over half a PLEX to buy a +5 learning set - just to get Jump Drive Calibration V and all the other rubbish support skills I have to train at the moment a bit faster is not meaningful, its an expensive pointless mechanic and a chore. Its even worse for newer players who both want to achieve their short term skill training goals as quickly as possible, but also want to learn to PvP where their +3 set is more expensive than their 3M ISK frigate.

And yes I understand that technically removing things like learning implants is 'dumbing down' the game but in my opinion it is not significant. The complexity in EVE should come from ships, fleet compositions, fittings and tactics. Really for me the bottom line is that the risks you take engaging in PvP and the speed that you train skills really should be independent of each other.


The case for attributes and remaps I'm not even sure myself on. Specialised remaps are great especially for alts and older characters but it is frustrating at times. At the moment I'm on a balanced, non specialised remap and its rubbish knowing that really I could be opening up more hulls faster if I remapped Per/Wil. I certainly wouldn't miss them if they were removed and as above I don't think the removal would represent a significant dumbing down of the game.

Not to mention heavens forbid that a new player may actually want to try their hand at Exploration, Industry and Leadership thus training Corp skills, Leadership skills, Probing skills, Manufacturing skills and Mining skills, before they actually settle into the null doctrine of 'fly these specific ships with T2 fits'.
Lets not even start to think about how many remaps that would actually take for a new player to actually experience all the various types of game play EVE has to offer without training a single one sub optimally.

Ah there it is "T2 doctrine" which translates to "I'm just cattle and fine with it", which comes back to my earlier points on that.

i'm not pushing any agenda. i've just laid a fact out there and if you say you're fine with it. that's fine. although now i'm curious as to why you think it's fine that new players have no option but to train skills slower than vetrans?

oh snap somone notices and actully wants to counter my points ;)

when i lose my ship i consider the situation if i am going to lose my pod 100%( bubble , pipe bomb , gate camp smart bombs) i start upluging everysingle implant starting with learning +5s then hardwairing implants as all the 5 of them are cheaper than two +5.

i mentioned in one of my posts i mostly lose my implants by unpluging them not by being poded as i care more about kb rather than my wallet. ( page 36 just under point B)

the system works fine, you suggest it isn't.

you still haven't justified why it's perfectly acceptable for new players to get shafted on sp/hour unlike us veterans, mind you.

or if you have and i missed it, would you care to link the post?

for someone that wants nothing you're sure pushing the agenda here.

8 days,,, ffs

Sounds like "it would favour me personally if they got removed".

once in your lifetime in EVE you'll miss 8 days training. you call this being shafted?

i wasn't asking if the system worked.

i asked you why you think it's ok that new players are forced to train slower than the rest of us.

because 8 days is nothing. you again make out that nobody else had to train the very same way when we did, so how is anyone being shafted ?

you still haven't justified why it's perfectly acceptable for new players to get shafted on sp/hour unlike us veterans, mind you.

or if you have and i missed it, would you care to link the post?

the system works fine, you suggest it isn't.