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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
106
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Posted - 2015.01.30 03:31:19 -
[31] - Quote
Like others here I wonder why you think these players should be forced out of an NPC anyway?
You cannot use force to get a group of players to do anything they do not want to do, it simply will not work when they can simply choose to spend their gaming dollars somewhere else. Hint this would be bad for ALL of us. In short the game as a whole is better off with these NPC players than it would be without them.
Even raising taxes on the NPC or expanding the things that are taxable is a bad idea. What is needed are ideas that would encourage / entice people to leave the NPC in favor of being in a player corp. War decs are one of the first things that need a serious look and yet they are at the top of the list of things people will fight to protect. In my discussion with players in NPC and trying to get them to come into a player corp war decs are the single largest thing holding people back. The last war dec the corp this character is in went through cost me 8 players that had been in the game less than 6 months. Yes they are still in the game, yes they are still active and yes I speak with them almost daily but they are now and will remain forever in an NPC.
This topic is about only allowing certain ships to be flown by those in a player corp, and while that specific idea is bad the general idea behind it is sound. The problem is what can we offer only to those in a player corp? POS or POC are out because of operating costs. Anyone got any ideas? |
Ronny Hugo
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
86
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Posted - 2015.01.30 03:56:39 -
[32] - Quote
Kicking you from corp in your vacation so when you come back you can't fly t3's anymore. Would be priceless. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2248
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Posted - 2015.01.30 05:59:34 -
[33] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Maybe the carrot approach with social corporations is not the best idea?
Because?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2406
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Posted - 2015.01.30 06:08:51 -
[34] - Quote
There is a carrot . . . it is called the tax rate.
There is a stick to convince folks not to leave npc corps, it is called wardecs.
Forcing players to play in the road so you can run them over is not an idea I support. I was about to add that forcing players to leave their own play styles behind is also bad but I realized that I have done that (I support the end of intercorp aggression mechanics aka awoxing)
Quote:Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes.
Walt Whitman
I want to encourage the social actions of the players, encourage the growth of communication and groupings. But not this way.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Quantum Distributions
1401
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Posted - 2015.01.30 06:46:13 -
[35] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I do not agree with forcing players out of NPC corps in this way. It's a players choice and style and there is already a tax punishment for remaining in there.
No matter how you word it or what restrictions you suggest, I believe them to be bad for the game. This is just more of that toxic approach from you, I mentioned before. I thought we agreed on that speed reduction thing?
New player resources:
Uni Wiki - General Info
Eve Altruist - PvP
Belligerent Undesirables - High Sec Pvp
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Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
726
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Posted - 2015.01.30 07:30:00 -
[36] - Quote
Trust is #1 biggest factor in EVE.
Both AWOX and NPC corp are causing big crying scenes over who is right.
1 is fixing the issue, not preventing AWOX whilst making it harder for the AWOX.
Second isn't really changing anything, cause NPC corp are not really doing anything to the game like CODE wanking permit protection.
Aside from that, as someone said you haven't been to CAS which goes back to trust. If you participated in a CAS Combat Day (CCD) which is basically a roaming fleet they hold every couple months they actually just wander out in null and blow crap up (they just had one a few days ago). Which is about trust, cause most people bring the bare minimum and not a gank target while some others supply the ships to newbie pilots.
tl;dr ; most people don't trust, AWOX like to exploit that, currently whine is AWOXers whining it will be harder to exploit trust over sudden invites but you can still fire with CONCORD showing up if that change goes live, NPC corps don't really care about trust as they bring what they want to lose to a fight, and for an NPC individual its just a loose collection of individuals with a chat channel < --- > like an alliance in null with an intel channel.
On the flip side, nothing stops you from pulling the trigger on an individual in an NPC corp, while in highsec, so you can destroy their ship, cause Wardecs are not required, you just need bigger balls. You don't really need more corps, they don't provide or offer what an NPC corp individual has aside from 11% tax and this imaginary fear that causes a lot of people not in an NPC corp that CONCORD is too powerful thus a higher tax is needed to get them out to attack them with wardec fee, which isn't needed BTW . Maybe if more individuals tried to be social instead of playing Counter Strike, you wouldn't have a problem you helped create in the first place |
Anthar Thebess
845
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Posted - 2015.01.30 08:11:23 -
[37] - Quote
Solution is very easy. We already have new "do not avox in higsec" tag that is able to be turned on in higsec.
What we need ( and we don't need this or the avox flag) is next one. No wardec possible , but at the same enabling this flag put on your corp the same NPC tax and rules you have in NPC corporation.
Now why? Because players moving out of the NPC corporations means actually more player to player interactions. Making new friends, and new enemies.
But wait , i will create this kind of corp and put some towers up, and they will be safe!
Like i stated , the same rules and the same tax like in NPC corp. So this corp cannot have Towers in : - higsec - lowsec etc and all the goodies that are offered by a normal corporation.
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Belynius
Dragron Riders Inc Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
7
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Posted - 2015.01.30 08:21:54 -
[38] - Quote
I'm not a fan of reducing player choice. This would also have negative repercussions on players, who for whatever reason, be it alliance sabotage, getting kicked from corp due to inactivity, would be unable to fly their ships. This would also simply increase the number of one man corps, as well as potentially trap some players in sov null.
Also, not all t2/faction ships remain the same. A stealth bomber is a far cry from a hulk or tengu.
It is up to us as the player base to ensure new players get a positive outlook on corporation life. |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
476
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Posted - 2015.01.30 11:04:19 -
[39] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Maybe the carrot approach with social corporations is not the best idea?
How about something that should make people scream and gnash their teeth at first but should settle down with time?
In order to fly Tech 2 & 3 ships, pirate, faction and capital ships you need to be in a private corporation. If you quit a private corporation and go back to an NPC one, you have 24 hours to move your ships before your license to fly them is revoked.
This means the new players are free to stay there in T1 ships safely while there is a foot pushing veterans out the door.
Well really npc corps only provide any measurable protection to people in highsec (as obviously flying anywhere else makes you a target) so while I agree we should be incentivising leaving npc corps I think a 25% tax rate and a reduction overall of highsec territory would do more.
People like to claim they play casually and this is why they need this and that bla bla I play like 4 hours a week tops and lived in lowsec for 4 years so I don't buy that crap. The issue isn't casual play it's just mewling from people who want no risk at all.
I say to them what can their money buy? Faster mission running? My money buys experiences including being the prey for an 8-man pirate gang. I visualise myself as a survivor and these other casual players as fat juicy pigs in their pig sty and I laugh at their complaints when the Butcher comes to town.
Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
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Mag's
the united
18979
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Posted - 2015.01.30 16:43:07 -
[40] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:Mag's wrote:I do not agree with forcing players out of NPC corps in this way. It's a players choice and style and there is already a tax punishment for remaining in there.
No matter how you word it or what restrictions you suggest, I believe them to be bad for the game. This is just more of that toxic approach from you, I mentioned before. I thought we agreed on that speed reduction thing? *cough* Why yes, of course I agree. Plus the extra tax, EHP reduction and we should also include the Pink Thorax with the purple veins. I'd like to fit the 'He looked at me funny' module on that Thorax, if that's OK?
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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nVus Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2015.01.30 18:42:38 -
[41] - Quote
If it makes any of you feel better, CAS corps fleet has had AWOX in fleets and it made us feel very special y'all are invited to join any of the CAS special interest groups and share your perspective and experiences with us in any and all aspects of your own gaming style.
It doesn't have to be an Us or Them/Carrot or Stick. You'd be more than welcome to take groups of CAS or any NPC corps on tour of your sovereignty wormholes or gate camps, we'd love that. Some of us might stay.
Envy out o7 |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
406
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Posted - 2015.01.30 20:05:56 -
[42] - Quote
The one thing I am curious about, is how many players in the NPC corporations are simply scouts/alts for other people and they don't bother leaving the NPC corporation because it's primary purpose is to just light up local, so who cares?
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
835
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Posted - 2015.01.30 20:16:31 -
[43] - Quote
The rage for asking a few questions was pretty surprising.
Going to work on the OP to try steer this more into a discussion.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Mag's
the united
18980
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Posted - 2015.01.30 21:19:34 -
[44] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:The rage for asking a few questions was pretty surprising. Which just goes to show the ignorance you have, for the game and it's player base.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2246
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Posted - 2015.01.30 21:33:54 -
[45] - Quote
I don't like NPC corps. For the most part, they're just somewhere for people to hide because parts of the game scare them or something. Whatever. You can increase the tax rate, you can restrict x, y and z, but none of these things will make the majority of the chickens join real corps. What will happen is that as each individual reaches their maximum tolerance for increased penalties for their cowardice, they'll quit the game. Whether or not that's good for the health of Eve is another debate entirely and not relevant to this thread.
What you can do is entice *some* of the NPCs into becoming real people. Shooting them in the face is a good way to do that. Maybe CCP can do some things, too, but honestly I don't think it'd be worth them investing too much time in it because ultimately it comes down to us players to show NPCs the light.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
Sabriz for CSM
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AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
88
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Posted - 2015.01.30 22:21:54 -
[46] - Quote
I don't see what the bloody fuss is about. EVE is a sandbox, you can do whatever you like - staying in an NPC corp for 10 years is a valid game mechanic, just like ganking. I know quite a few folks who are still having a blast playing after years in an NPC corp... Sounds to me like you feel threatened by these players somehow, to wish to force them out of there.
Play and let play. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
835
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Posted - 2015.01.30 22:35:58 -
[47] - Quote
AeonOfTime wrote:I don't see what the bloody fuss is about. Incursion alts and the impact they have on the economy is one example.
(I like how I have gone from "theme park carebear" to being "toxic", though. What will be the next label of the day do you guys think?)
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Mag's
the united
18980
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Posted - 2015.01.30 23:44:43 -
[48] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I like how I have gone from "theme park carebear" to being "toxic", though. Gone from? It's one and the same.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
406
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Posted - 2015.01.31 00:32:21 -
[49] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Incursion alts and the impact they have on the economy is one example.
One of the first things that people get told when they start running incursions, is to get out of an NPC corp because of the 10% tax.
1 man corporations do wonders.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
835
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Posted - 2015.01.31 00:42:18 -
[50] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:1 man corporations do wonders. Just as bad for the hassle of declaring war on them. There should be a minimum number and activity requirement after the first two weeks.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Cadelanne Lennelluc
R.O.S.E. Sales division
0
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Posted - 2015.01.31 00:48:52 -
[51] - Quote
If you put the players out of the NPC corporation, where are you going to place them ? you can't put them in a random corporation.
If they just leave and have no corp, you can't wardec them either. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11556
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Posted - 2015.01.31 00:49:19 -
[52] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Incursion alts and the impact they have on the economy is one example.
One of the first things that people get told when they start running incursions, is to get out of an NPC corp because of the 10% tax. 1 man corporations do wonders.
Clearly, the only appropriate response is to buff suicide ganking.
That, or make incursion sites functional lowsec. I mean, honestly, if CONCORD isn't going to bother responding to twenty thousand Sansha ships, they damn sure shouldn't show up if I try and scram somebody.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
951
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Posted - 2015.01.31 00:50:22 -
[53] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Hopelesshobo wrote:1 man corporations do wonders. Just as bad for the hassle of declaring war on them. There should be a minimum number and activity requirement after the first two weeks. So my alt corp for my miners/researchers/drug prodcucers/PI alts that might sit completely Idle for months at a time shouldn't be permitted because it's not "active" enough?
It's scary that someone like you actually has significant backing in the game.
Well as significant as Provi gets.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
835
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Posted - 2015.01.31 01:31:42 -
[54] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Well as significant as Provi gets. Provi is voting for Core as far as I know. I won't be beating on that drum. You know, as well as I do, that a corp made as a tax dodge that is hollow is not how the corp system is intended to work. Cadelanne Lennelluc wrote:If you put the players out of the NPC corporation, where are you going to place them ? you can't put them in a random corporation. If they just leave and have no corp, you can't wardec them either. They won't be pushed out. They will only be limited in what they can do.
NPC corps are too comfortable and too rewarding with too much protection. As others have said though, the war declaration mechanics need an overhaul if this were implemented.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
29
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Posted - 2015.01.31 02:02:47 -
[55] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Edit: The possible issues (consider this in the eyes of CCP and the concepts they have for their game): - NPC corps are too comfortable, veterans remain there from day one to the day they quit, not exploring other ways of play the game. - Gankers and scouts hide in NPC corps to not be war declared on them and to anonymise themselves. - Null Sec alliances hide haulers in NPC corps. - People use NPC corps to hide from wars. There are some related problems: - War dec mechanics - Freedom of choice for current players. The goal of this thread is to discuss ways of getting veterans to take the step out of NPC corps, get a group of other veterans friends with them, make new corps and nurture newbies into exploring more of the game. / Edit Maybe the carrot approach with social corporations is not the best idea? How about something that should make people scream and gnash their teeth at first but should settle down with time? In order to fly Tech 2 & 3 ships, pirate, faction and capital ships you need to be in a private corporation. If you quit a private corporation and go back to an NPC one, you have 24 hours to move your ships before your license to fly them is revoked. This means the new players are free to stay there in T1 ships safely while there is a foot pushing veterans out the door.
NPC corp main here. o/ What playstyles are you suggesting I'm missing out on by being in CAS? Being a pawn subject to CTAs, paplinks and minimum logon times or face being kicked from corp? Sure. But other than that, I can't think of too much I'd need to be in a player corp to do that I can't in CAS. Bash or rep structures? Incredibly boring, but done that. Cap warfare? Been involved. Live in a wormhole, explore, mission, mine, manufacture? Done, or can do, those things. Shoot ships and be shot at? Every dang day. Okay, okay, I'm not subject to wardecs, but I use inties when I move small items and Red Frog when I move large. (Come to think of it, I could see Red Frog being the single entity most against the elimination or crippling of NPC corps.) Hung out and shot the bull on coms? Check.
(I might sound down on corps a bit, but I don't mean it in a mean way. I've had many positive interactions with players in corps. :-) |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
952
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Posted - 2015.01.31 02:03:16 -
[56] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:You know, as well as I do, that a corp made as a tax dodge that is hollow is not how the corp system is intended to work. Cadelanne Lennelluc wrote:If you put the players out of the NPC corporation, where are you going to place them ? you can't put them in a random corporation. If they just leave and have no corp, you can't wardec them either. They won't be pushed out. They will only be limited in what they can do. NPC corps are too comfortable and too rewarding with too much protection. As others have said though, the war declaration mechanics need an overhaul if this were implemented. You do realize that not one of the things I mentioned would actually taxed while in an NPC corp, right?
Being in a PC corp simply allows all my alts to access the resources of a POS.
And considering the game is at least fairly sandboxy, declaring that tax shelter corps are "not how the system is intended to work" is rather silly. It is not what many would consider an optimal use of the system, but saying it's not an intended use is a bit silly when CCP does not regulate how a corp functions. It it were and CCP was opposed to tax shelters, they would implement an NPC tax even when in a player corp. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
835
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Posted - 2015.01.31 02:24:38 -
[57] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:You do realize that ... I have no interest in nit-picking this further. You know there is a huge benefit to hollow corps and NPC ones and why people use them. You also know why if this changed people would scream for awhile but ultimately, the game would be better for it.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Kaarous Aldurald
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11557
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Posted - 2015.01.31 02:30:32 -
[58] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: You also know why if this changed people would scream for awhile but ultimately, the game would be better for it.
You are beyond delusional.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2305
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Posted - 2015.01.31 06:13:10 -
[59] - Quote
I'm all for coaxing or coercing people out of NPC corps and all against forcing them out.
CSM X: Sabriz Adoudel, Mike Azariah, Sugar Kyle, Corbexx, Jenshae Chiroptera
Highsec reform thread
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Anabella Rella
Gradient
1870
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Posted - 2015.01.31 09:07:31 -
[60] - Quote
No, bad idea.
A ham-fisted approach like this would simply make players decide to quit the game. This is a video game, not a RL job. No one NEEDS Eve to put food on the table and therefore will not put up with a bunch of onerous restrictions or arbitrary rules that make the game less enjoyable. People are paying money to play and to play the way they want to (obviously within the bounds of theTOS and game mechanics). No amount of brute force coercion will ever make a player do something he/she does not want to do, They'll simply find other games in which to spend their time; games that offer them enjoyment and freedom of choice.
Also let's face it; there are a LOT of godawful player run corps out there. As a recruiter for my corp I see the often very long employment histories and hear the horror stories of people who've bounced from one bad group to the next. Maybe instead of attacking the (IMO non-) issue of players remaining in NPC corps you should be trying to do more to make player run corps better. You should also accept the fact that there are those who for whatever reason will never leave their NPC corp. Have enough respect for that person's decision and the principle of the "sandbox" to allow them to play as they wish even if you disagree.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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