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Why integrated voice comms will suck.

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Shiraz Merlot Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:05:00 - [1] They need to be more stable than the client. And, er, that's it.
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:07:00 - [2] its totally retarded anyways much rather use vent, or ts anyways, why ccp is bothering with this is beyond me. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:08:00 - [3] 1. People will continue to use TS because TS allows you to chat while offline and not only communicate during crashes, but also orchestrate lame things like login traps. 2. It costs money. 3. TS will handle more people more reliably. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Valator Uel Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:13:00 - [4] Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. People will continue to use TS because TS allows you to chat while offline and not only communicate during crashes, but also orchestrate lame things like login traps. 2. It costs money. 3. TS will handle more people more reliably. Well I don't know about reliability because I haven't seen it yet (although technically it'll be as reliable as the server and client ). What would be nice though is if it could be used independantly whether the client or server is running (since it is "hosted" by Vivox and not CCP servers). I also hope CCP offer various payment options, like Corp, Alliance, private and temporary (eg just for a weekend) options.
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:13:00 - [5] Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. People will continue to use TS because TS allows you to chat while offline and not only communicate during crashes, but also orchestrate lame things like login traps. 2. It costs money. 3. TS will handle more people more reliably. 1. This I agree 2. TS cost money, the question is who is paying 3. We have not seen the system yet, how do you know TS is more reliable? ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:15:00 - [6] Originally by: evistin Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. People will continue to use TS because TS allows you to chat while offline and not only communicate during crashes, but also orchestrate lame things like login traps. 2. It costs money. 3. TS will handle more people more reliably. 1. This I agree 2. TS cost money, the question is who is paying 3. We have not seen the system yet, how do you know TS is more reliable? Teamspeak has been polished over the course of half a decade or more. CCP's technology is brand new. What are the odds it will be more reliable than TS? Plus, its integrated into EVE--it can't be more reliable. TS "costs money," but it can be run on pretty much any server for basically no cost. For a 1000-man alliance to use TS it costs a few bucks a month maybe to rent the space on the server, but for everyone to use voice comms it would cost 2000 dollars a month. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Sovy Kurosei Amarr Therianthropic Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:25:00 - [7] It wouldn't be so bad if you could have the voice client open without logging into Eve and you could get onto some kind of corp wide voice comms plan so one guy would pay for it but everybody could log into it. Otherwise it really gets blown out of the water by TeamSpeak and Ventrillo. ___________________
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:34:00 - [8] Shikari, the technology CCP is using is actually "old" and while being part of the client does give it problems, we have no idea on its implementation, it could be an external software that interacts with the client. Cost we also do not know, TS server cost about 0.29 cents per person to operate, so while its probably cheaper to run TS, I can say for sure till I see the numbers CCP puts up. ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
Allen Miles Caldari The Miles Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:36:00 - [9] Until we see it why talk about how it will suck? If you want to use TS, use it. If not, don't. After it is released and if it effects gameplay/lag, then lets talk about it. \|\|M\|\| Add Your Images or Add Your Corp to the DB!
Viktor Beck The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:44:00 - [10] I'm a little more concerned about why CCP are bothering putting something in the client that is not needed and will be used very little. I'd prefer them get Kali out.
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:46:00 - [11] Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. People will continue to use TS because TS allows you to chat while offline and not only communicate during crashes, but also orchestrate lame things like login traps. 2. It costs money. 3. TS will handle more people more reliably. 1) true - and it is huge. nothing like a disco (and disco from chat) to ruin things... though arguably most wish THAT level of meta-gaming would go away! 2) depend how they price it... 1-2 (insert currency here) would have to be max 3) dunno about that what looks really great about it is client integration. saw some demo footage - and dudes who are talking (in gang) light up on you map for you to warp to... etc... could really bring thing to another level. will have to see. most reviewer who have seen it have been pretty blown away IWRC... __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now Stealth Bomber Tweaks
ReePeR McAllem Amarr Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2006.10.01 01:47:00 - [12] Well when using TS or Vent each time you key up to speak, does it show where that person is on the map... no, with CCP's when you talk it will show exactly from where on the map that persons communicating from... pretty neat I think, and who knows it sucks yet? its not been tried by any of youze Courage is rightly esteemed the first of Amarr qualities... because it is the quality which guarantees all others
Quin Tal Expeto Libertas	Posted - 2006.10.01 02:10:00 - [13] It's undoubtably one more thing that will lag us to balls. Everyone uses Vent or TS anyways, I don't see what the big deal is.
Kaiu Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.10.01 02:25:00 - [14] Wow, no one is interested in the implementation and integration into the upgraded map, overview and fleet command mechanics...? For me, seeing and knowing by an indication on the map, who is speaking, which part of my fleet they are in and in which system instantly will be pretty helpful :) But yes, lag and outofgame issues will be interesting to see... ____________________ MOGarmy
Phoenix Lord The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.01 02:40:00 - [15] The only way id pay ($1-3 a month at most) for it is if you can "broadcast" your voice. Meaning you can talk while in space and anyone within 50km or so can hear you, or you can select a person and talk to that person only. I think that would be a fun and useful thing to have, its a lot better than having to open a private chat to tell someone to do something really quickly. ---------------- Meet... bunneh:
X ChaosX Caldari Panzershrek	Posted - 2006.10.01 02:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Phoenix Lord The only way id pay ($1-3 a month at most) for it is if you can "broadcast" your voice. Meaning you can talk while in space and anyone within 50km or so can hear you, or you can select a person and talk to that person only. I think that would be a fun and useful thing to have, its a lot better than having to open a private chat to tell someone to do something really quickly. Please no broadcasting your voice unless you can turn off hearing others broadcastings. I dont really want to listen to someone scream in my ear as I am fighting them. ______________________________________________ Originally by: Bill Shankly i see your another one of those lousy pirates that cant fight fair and call yourself apvper, what a joke u are.
Niccolado Starwalker Syncore Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.01 02:54:00 - [17] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 01/10/2006 02:55:00 Originally by: Shiraz Merlot They need to be more stable than the client. And, er, that's it. 1. Voice servers will be run from and by Vivox. With other words, it will not be run by the same server, maybe and most likely not even in the same country! 2. Vivox have people with specialized knowledge on this field. They know what it is about. 3. EVE Online server will be ran paralell but integrated with EVE voice. What these integration features will include is not known, but from what I remember, eve mail voice messages, squadron and fleet based groups, ie. the people in the group ingame will be people in the group in voice, tied to your corporation and alliance 4. Yes, it will cost money, but from what I heard the cost is not much, and like 1-2 dollar extra per month. And for that you will get a voicechat program that is running independently from the game EVE, but will have features that branches straight into the game. 5. EVE voice will handle people just as good as other TS server. I would say as a matter of fact way better because you will be able to have features that can control the flow of people. One of the main problems today on EVE TS servers are Spies. Passwords are easily shared with out-of-corp member, but if EVE voice gives ties to corp/alliance chatrooms, spies will be reduces. At least the out-of-corp ones. 6. Sound quality is another matter. I have been using Teamspeak and ventrillo, and none of them gives a perfect soundpicture. Breakups are pretty common. I have experienced that important voice messages have disappeared under fleet OPs! And since its run on its exlusive server the sound picture most likely will be better! We dont know much about integration of EVE voice. Its scethcy, but I think it looks great. How it will turn out, remains to see, but to say it will suck before its launched - before we even know its complete feature list, including to say it needs to be more stable then the client, when A.) its run by a different host on a different server, who are specialized in this field is completely wrong. I plan to give it a try. And If these features are included and/or will improve my gameplay, I will gladly pay the extra dollar or two to be able to have an EVE online integrated voicechat
Kaiu Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.10.01 03:15:00 - [18] Did no one watch the mog cast? linked in my sig / He tests the system... ____________________ MOGarmy
WildAmishRose Caldari Vale Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.01 03:27:00 - [19] There are a lot of people in this world who aren't quite as tech savy as the rest of us. One of those people, my old man, plays Eve, and enjoys it quite a bit. However, no matter how hard I try, he doesn't get the teamspeak thing. Eve voice support will be nothing but positive for him. It will give him the chance to experience another level of immersion in the game, that most of you are busy being too l33t to understand not everyone can do. Not everyone has ventrillo. Not everyone has teamspeak. Not everyone knows how these programs work, or even that they exist. Adding this functionality to the eve client itself is one of the coolest things I've ever seen an MMO company do, it will be accessable, seemingly fairily cheap, and nothing CCP has shown me so far leads me to believe it won't work, or will be poorly integrated. I'll be trying it as soon as it comes out. My advice, stop naysaying and let CCP add functionality to make the game more enjoyable for others, without a holier than thou tirade of complaints.
xaix ikkul	Posted - 2006.10.01 03:57:00 - [20] this is stupid why pay for in game voice coms when the majority of us don't have to pay a dime when we use TS. I say this "feature" needs to be nerfed.
Kaiu Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.10.01 04:04:00 - [21] Who does everyone say it adds no features? Are you all simply isk GTC users and complaining about the costs..? ____________________ MOGarmy
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.01 04:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Shiraz Merlot They need to be more stable than the client. And, er, that's it. And you think they won't be because...? Its being done by a different company, and hosted on a different server. Really the big downside would you're only going to be able to use it once in game I'd bet, which will suck in itself. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.01 04:31:00 - [23] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: evistin Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. People will continue to use TS because TS allows you to chat while offline and not only communicate during crashes, but also orchestrate lame things like login traps. 2. It costs money. 3. TS will handle more people more reliably. 1. This I agree 2. TS cost money, the question is who is paying 3. We have not seen the system yet, how do you know TS is more reliable? Teamspeak has been polished over the course of half a decade or more. CCP's technology is brand new. What are the odds it will be more reliable than TS? Plus, its integrated into EVE--it can't be more reliable. What's the odds a company that makes its business off of communications, being able to make a better program than Teamspeak? Uh, pretty good, otherwise they wouldn't be in business. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Averi Draven	Posted - 2006.10.01 04:37:00 - [24] Well as far as the Quality is Concerned, I attended E3 this Year where CCP had a live demonstration. I was talking through the system to a guy at the other end of the country (can't remember where) and the Audio quality was Very Clear and Clean. I was Impressed!
Tbone Caldari Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.01 04:42:00 - [25] i wont use it. ----------------------------------------------- Finite Horizon
Tractormech	Posted - 2006.10.01 04:46:00 - [26] I have played other mmos with integrated voice chat. It's much handier than vent or ts. No extra addons to get so you can tell whose speaking, less programs running in the background, quicker integration, and MUCH better sound quality. Your also not sticking one poor helpful corp member with the cost of keeping up a server, but spreading it out. Not to mention this could add a whole new perspective to the game. Imagine being able to voice chat the target you are ransoming (not always i good idea i can imagine). Pick up groups also have an easy way of communication. You are also more secure from spies. If your not a member in the game theres no way to get access to a corp's chat. I can't really see any disadvantages that outwegh any of the advatages to this.
aggiedog	Posted - 2006.10.01 04:57:00 - [27] The only problem that I see in this is some people will pay and some won't. THis will cause problems in gangs if some people can't do voice chat. With TS or vent you can guarentee that everyone has the chance to do voice communications. --------------------------------------------- Forum Wars!...Because the battlefeild is laggy.
Mak'shar Karrde Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.01 05:54:00 - [28] If you can't use it while the game is not loaded/running then Teamspeak will always be more effective. Even while a fleet is enjoying the slideshow that is jumping into another large fleet, TS allows smooth and clear communication. I just can't imagine the same being true for an integrated system. The only place I can see it being useful is in Empire, where good communication is not the difference between life and death (for most). I imagine people will have a very long blocked list before long.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.01 06:25:00 - [29] Originally by: Weirda 1) true - and it is huge. nothing like a disco (and disco from chat) to ruin things... though arguably most wish THAT level of meta-gaming would go away! The real problem is that the commander of a fleet/squadron/group will not be able to accurately relay orders and do handoffs to those lower in the chain of command with an ingame client on client disconnects. As far as meta-gaming goes, if you could never disconnect from eve without losing your entire internet connection, you may have a point, but until then, an out of game client will be required for gang operations. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Julia Reave	Posted - 2006.10.01 10:17:00 - [30] Originally by: aggiedog The only problem that I see in this is some people will pay and some won't. THis will cause problems in gangs if some people can't do voice chat. With TS or vent you can guarentee that everyone has the chance to do voice communications. QFT
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.01 10:28:00 - [31] Originally by: aggiedog The only problem that I see in this is some people will pay and some won't. THis will cause problems in gangs if some people can't do voice chat. With TS or vent you can guarentee that everyone has the chance to do voice communications. You are making a lot of assumtions with that statement. I have seen people non-tech savy who can't run or figure out how to use TS or vent. Some of them are in a suitation where they can't log-on, family is there, or something like that. granted there is always an odd-one out, but for all we know, it could be that anyone can listen, but you pay to talk. We just have no idea how the VoIP system works. ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.01 10:32:00 - [32] Originally by: ReePeR McAllem Well when using TS or Vent each time you key up to speak, does it show where that person is on the map... no, with CCP's when you talk it will show exactly from where on the map that persons communicating from. Yes ofcorse, simply asking 'where are you now' is too hard. I offer great smelling flowers
BlackHole Bob Amarr JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.10.01 10:50:00 - [33] WTS: EvE in game voice service for ISK!!!!!! It wont be long before voice service cards will be available to buy and sell for ISK on the forums just like GTC Blackhole Bob CEO: R-U-OK Corporation In Game Player Guide EvE-NN.com - EvE News Network
Edgars Sults LFC 3rd Front Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.01 11:08:00 - [34] I really can't see the problem with voice integrated in EVE. If it wasn't reliable and the company which makes it wouldn't feel confident that their servers can't handle the amounts of people who want to talk, they wouldn't make it. And CCP wouldn't have given them the contract. Skype works. Why wouldn't it work on a much smaller scale? And it will be possible to pay for the service for the whole alliance or corp. I'm sure of that. So stop the whinage even before anything has happened. If you don't like the new voice system when it comes out, don't use it. Simple. Some people are never happy.
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.01 11:16:00 - [35] Originally by: Tbone i wont use it. /signed
Valator Uel Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.10.01 22:31:00 - [36] Does anyone know how this will work for people having more than one account? Having to pay more to use the same tool seems like a little robbery to me (but yes I don't mind paying double for more than one training character). A blog with a sneak preview would be cool.
Oriel Gallente Astralite Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.01 22:52:00 - [37] Why is anyone going to want to pay an extra Ç/$2-3 a month per account to use intergrated voice comms? If the financial reasons didn't deter (and they will) I still can't see what is so special about Vivox that will lure me away from using Teamspeak. CCP are wasting their time with it, tbh.
Mikal Drey Angels and Demons	Posted - 2006.10.01 23:05:00 - [38] hey hey did anyone catch the pod cast with the voice comms demo ? looked very good. as to it costing ? er.. who said that. isnt this an assumption ? also if CCP are like the millions of other companies it will be passed directly to the playerbase . . subscription increase anyone ? IF it works anything like the demo then i think it will actually change alot of the fleet communications. my PC hates Ts and my mic is constantly muted when and if i ever use it. also TS isnt exactly 100% secure but the Voice comms that CCP are going to implement wil have a very very secure channel. again thats IF it works like the demo. :))
Zeknichov Amarr Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.01 23:12:00 - [39] I didn't read this whole topic but the only way integrated will work is if it isn't truly integrated. If it's an external program that syncs with the client and can be used while not playing EVE. The reason programs like TS/Vent are so popular is because people can be chatting while not playing the game, can be used to play other games with people from their guild and work during downtime/crashes. Not to mention for the shady corps, organize login traps. Think of this like an FPS. Who actually uses the in game voice? pubers and nubs. All the competitive clans use vent.
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2006.10.02 01:11:00 - [40] I actually HATE games that have built in voice chat. I also refuse to play with anyone that requires you to use voice chat (as some do). I believe it should be optional, but if it is added to EVE I can see it becoming more of a requirement. I've been playing games for a long time and feel voice chat removes a lot of the immersion factor for me. When I get some loud mouthed Yank (no offense to the Americans) hollering out of my speakers it's no longer as fun. If they add chat at all I think it should be at least converted to synthesized chat. Voice chat also removes a lot of the skill factor from games. People no longer have to learn how to type fast to run organised events.
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2006.10.02 01:23:00 - [41] An in game voice comm, that relies on the stability of EVE Server/EVE client to work... Yeah, thats a brilliant idea Originally by: Avon Originally by: Dark Shikari What single item is larger than a jetcan? My ego?
Angry Alt	Posted - 2006.10.02 01:31:00 - [42] Originally by: Oriel Why is anyone going to want to pay an extra Ç/$2-3 a month per account to use intergrated voice comms? If the financial reasons didn't deter (and they will) I still can't see what is so special about Vivox that will lure me away from using Teamspeak. CCP are wasting their time with it, tbh. Exactly. IF it catches on alliances/corps will have a 'reqirement' to use it, thus shutting out even more people. It's a useless feature that is already handled by TS/Vent. Forcing people to use it (which will happen if it's widely accepted) just locks out people who can't/won't pay for it. Wasted dev time IMO. Work on more server stability, take any devs working on this and move them to a more useful purpose that everyone will reap the benefits. I for one will definately not pay for this crap.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.02 03:28:00 - [43] Originally by: w0rmy An in game voice comm, that relies on the stability of EVE Server/EVE client to work... Yeah, thats a brilliant idea It doesn't rely on the EVE server. Inability/unwillingness to read FTL. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Chiron Typhon Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.10.02 03:47:00 - [44] Why are you all getting so bent about this? Don't like it, prefer TS or Vent then use them. Sure a large corp can set up a TS or Vent server because there's always one tech savvy guy in your corp who has access to software and hardware and money to burn. For smaller groups or bunches of friends, however, they can't use TS or Vent due to not having a server so they have to fall back on other serverless voice comms like Skype. If they can use an integrated voice comm that has useful in game functionality then why wouldn't they. The main sticker is the price, there's only so much people will pay for convenience in what is still a game. New and smaller by request =p "Draw them in by the prospect of gain, take them by confusion" -Sun Tzu
Sunsets	Posted - 2006.10.02 03:56:00 - [45] Main plus to integrated coms would be having channels w/ restrictions limiting specific corp/alliance access and gang access.
Mesuinu M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.02 04:02:00 - [46] There's two problems as I see it. The first is that in pvp ops, reliability is the key thing. If you are fighting and the node goes down with everyone crashing for example, the fact that presumably being logged in will be a requirement of it working will result in much more of a mess for organisation on these ops than TS, where you can still hear what everyone else is doing. The same goes if you drop connection for any other reason, with TS you can still hear what's going on. The second problem is that I can see a situation where it really becomes a requirement to have the integrated comms anyway just for the extra features it will offer, otherwise you will not be as useful a member of the team. It would be a bit sad to think many of us might have to run both systems just to have all the benfits. But all this is a bit premature. The proof will be in the pudding.
Harisdrop Gallente RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.02 04:53:00 - [47] There once was a game that was going to be a PVP game where there was going to be industrialization in a single server enviroment. Who would of thought that EVE would be here. I say before any whiner keeps the spew why not give it a chance. I personally will be going to any service that CCP thinks will make the game exp better. I hope they just put the cost of the voice comms in the subscription. I think that if they did that there would be 100% agreement that we should use it. I want controls for each device soo my sound wiill be great and not have the exspolsions over my comms.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.02 05:37:00 - [48] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: w0rmy An in game voice comm, that relies on the stability of EVE Server/EVE client to work... Yeah, thats a brilliant idea It doesn't rely on the EVE server. Inability/unwillingness to read FTL. But it relies on the eve client, which cannot be up if the eve server is down. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Thaylon Sen The Rat Pack	Posted - 2006.10.02 05:45:00 - [49] I'm really looking forward to it... It's gonna be so usefull
Cipher7 Dark and Light inc.	Posted - 2006.10.02 06:55:00 - [50] Edited by: Cipher7 on 02/10/2006 06:57:11 STOP ADDING USELESS SCHIT AND FOCUS FIRE ON THE LAG. Lag is primary target Instas are secondary Scram em Jam em Bam em There is no tertiary target at this time.
Dudley Beekle	Posted - 2006.10.02 07:09:00 - [51] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: w0rmy An in game voice comm, that relies on the stability of EVE Server/EVE client to work... Yeah, thats a brilliant idea It doesn't rely on the EVE server. Inability/unwillingness to read FTL. But it relies on the eve client, which cannot be up if the eve server is down. Who says? Just because it integrates with the client doesn't mean it relies on it. It's amazing that so many people will criticise something they know almost nothing about before they've even used it. There's even people whining about the work CCP is putting into it. CCP aren't. They've done a little bit for the integration but they said that most of it was nothing to do with them. Stop being so godamn negative and wait until it's released. Judge it then, ffs.
Complacency's Bane	Posted - 2006.10.02 07:49:00 - [52] If the new voice coms arent completely seperate from the EVE client, 2 things will totally kill it as a project: 1) EVE with sound on = EVE lagging. I havent run EVE with sound on in years, and most people I know are the same. 2) EVE crashes. A lot. Logging in after crashing with no way to ask if anything is clear is a good way to die. Often. Those two problems are the insourmountable ones with integrating it into the EVE client. The rest are minor and solvable with some thought and planning.
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.10.02 07:50:00 - [53] Originally by: Angry Alt Exactly. IF it catches on alliances/corps will have a 'reqirement' to use it, thus shutting out even more people. It's a useless feature that is already handled by TS/Vent. Forcing people to use it (which will happen if it's widely accepted) just locks out people who can't/won't pay for it. This is my one concern about integrated voice comms. From what I've seen so far the implementation of it is going to be superb and a real step up from TS/Vent. CCP aren't amateurs, Vivox are also very experienced and I think between them they'll come up with something very good. BUT as soon as it becomes a requirement for Corps & Alliances then it'll effectively be just an increase in the EVE subscription fee and that's not a good thing for everyone. I hadn't thought about the multiple accounts thing either - that's a question that CCP need to answer really, will those people with more than one account have to pay for voice comms on all their accounts? If that does turn out to be the case then that might be a more serious blow to take-up rates than anything else.
Sosus Red Caldari Thunderbolts The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2006.10.02 09:02:00 - [54] if you people dont wnat to or are too cheap to use the program, then dont. Why complain? The the Hell wants to hear people *****ing about some feature that 99% of you have never seen and know nothing about. Sounds as if some people just like complaining. Use if you like it. Dont use it if you dont like it. I dont care if you love TS and want ts to have your babies.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.02 09:06:00 - [55] Originally by: Sosus Red if you people dont wnat to or are too cheap to use the program, then dont. Why complain? The the Hell wants to hear people *****ing about some feature that 99% of you have never seen and know nothing about. Sounds as if some people just like complaining. Use if you like it. Dont use it if you dont like it. I dont care if you love TS and want ts to have your babies. I think the problem starts when half the corp wants to use it and half dont. :) Its integrated into Eve in such a way that you really need everybody to use it, or none at all, otherwise you will have problems. I think it will have really good sound quality, and really good stability too since it operates on its own network. Im just worried the voice will disappear if you get disconnected from Eve. I hope thats not the case. We'll see. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Hed First Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.02 09:16:00 - [56] our alliance has vent - vent works great. somebody pays for the server somewhere, but it isnt me. i'm happy to contribute if asked, but of all the ppl in the alliance less than 1/3 ever fly in combat let alone even connect to the vent server. what am i saying? do you need voice comms to run a mining op in empire? nope... do you need voice comms to do missions in empire... no not really... low sec mining ops? again, not necessary but helpful alliance warfare? HELL YEAH you need voice comms... its voice comms or die TBFH... so the fate of this new system is gonna be decided by the 0.0 alliances to be sure 99.9% right? well heres a news flash... nobody . . . is . . . gonna . . . buy . . . it we got our own systems setup, its less hassle to give somebody an ip and pass than to cojole them into parting with their hard earned... ------------------------------------ I'm OMW
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.02 09:19:00 - [57] I hope CCP releases a seperate client that allows one to use voice coms even though the eve server is down. Otherwise itll be quite useless. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Bombcrater DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.02 09:35:00 - [58] Originally by: Dudley Beekle Who says? Just because it integrates with the client doesn't mean it relies on it. The big deal with the integrated voice comms is that it's integrated into the game. Either the voice client itself or the voice comms server is going to need a pipe into TQ to get access to real-time game data - who's in you gang, etc. If a node crashes that data isn't available any more, and bang goes the voice comms. TS sucks. I hate it with a passion. But a voice client that goes down with the cluster and requires a monthly subscription is far, far worse no matter how nice it is in use.
Bank O'Tree	Posted - 2006.10.02 09:51:00 - [59] Edited by: Bank O''Tree on 02/10/2006 09:51:27 I love all the ppl on both sides making statements about how a the new voice comms, will or will not lag out Eve. Or how it will or will not suck. Seriously, maybe about 1% of the player base in eve has even tried this. Leads me to believe that most of us our just talking out of our arse's. Anyways to add my two isk, I sincerly hope that CCP, allows all of us a 1-3 month free trial of this new feature when it comes out. To help facilitate informed choices on all our parts. *bah lousy alt was logged on, main is treelox
Fringey Black Omega Security E.R.A	Posted - 2006.10.02 10:33:00 - [60] Originally by: WildAmishRose There are a lot of people in this world who aren't quite as tech savy as the rest of us. One of those people, my old man, plays Eve, and enjoys it quite a bit. However, no matter how hard I try, he doesn't get the teamspeak thing. Eve voice support will be nothing but positive for him. It will give him the chance to experience another level of immersion in the game, that most of you are busy being too l33t to understand not everyone can do. Not everyone has ventrillo. Not everyone has teamspeak. Not everyone knows how these programs work, or even that they exist. That's a silly thing to say. Anyone smart enough to understand the mechanics of Eve is smart enough to download and read the help file for a simple program like TS.
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2006.10.02 11:39:00 - [61] Voice chat built into games destroys chatter. Go look at DDO. They have built in Voice chat and if you want to play it's almost a requirement. However it's not enbled by default so you dont hear anyone speaking. Go to the tavern and ask for help in the local chat. There may be 20 people there, but not one will reply because none of them are reading the chat. They are all listening to the voices. If it's added to EVE I'll not be using it. Seems a bit pointless adding it with a fee, when it's available to those that want it for free.
stoats girl	Posted - 2006.10.02 11:49:00 - [62] "We couldn't fix the server dying when people you know, pvp in a pvp game" "We'll try this instead" Awful idea unless I can yell at the sweatshop farmers in local.
Sean Dillon Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2006.10.02 11:56:00 - [63] Its sucks to CCP see do this, just to show they can. If they spended that money on hardware instead of voice speak it would have been alot better. I have been in a squad on battlefield 2, though BF2 allows voice chat ingame they still used teamspeak because it was better to use and you could actualy use it to talk strategies whilst loading a new map.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.02 11:58:00 - [64] Why does everyone ignore the new features this will bring? ---------- Nerf Caldaro!
Siigari Kitawa Gallente HelpCorp United	Posted - 2006.10.02 12:04:00 - [65] Wait, you have to pay for the EVE ingame comms? whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
Trojanman190 Caldari Everlasting Impact	Posted - 2006.10.02 12:31:00 - [66] Teamspeak = free. In game comm = not free. I think its pretty clear what most people will choose.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente HelpCorp United	Posted - 2006.10.02 12:33:00 - [67] Originally by: Trojanman190 Teamspeak = free. In game comm = not free. I think its pretty clear what most people will choose. So where can I read about the features? It'd better be really fscking cool to have to cost money.
Dudley Beekle	Posted - 2006.10.02 12:33:00 - [68] Edited by: Dudley Beekle on 02/10/2006 12:34:41 Originally by: Bombcrater Originally by: Dudley Beekle Who says? Just because it integrates with the client doesn't mean it relies on it. The big deal with the integrated voice comms is that it's integrated into the game. Either the voice client itself or the voice comms server is going to need a pipe into TQ to get access to real-time game data - who's in you gang, etc. If a node crashes that data isn't available any more, and bang goes the voice comms. TS sucks. I hate it with a passion. But a voice client that goes down with the cluster and requires a monthly subscription is far, far worse no matter how nice it is in use. Yay for missing my point completely. integration can just mean "they communicate with each other". If one of them isn't present the one that is just carries on without it. To try and get this point across to the screaming ignorant hordes it's as if the authors of TS had got CCP to publish a chat API for the Eve client. If TS detected the Eve client was running it would talk to it and vice versa. If the Eve client crashes it needn't crash TS (if it did that would be a bug). Similarly if TS crashes it wouldn't have to effect the Eve client. Furthermore the devs would have next to no development to undertake and the voice chat would be completely separate to the game like they are with a current TS setup. For the poster who squawked about voice coms affecting lag:There's no particular reason why it should. I suppose that rendering speech bubbles on screen is a further hit for the graphics card but probably not a big one. The chat itself (processing and transmitting the audio) will be nothing to do with the Eve client or CCP. The only real issues to worry about are the subscription side. These are: * How much? * What about people that don't want to use it? * What about people with multiple accounts? The latter could be addressed by having it billed as a separate item I would imagine. The issue of people not using it is probably the sticking point. Both these are related though. If the pricing can be shared by all subscriptions it might end up so cheap that CCP can 'hide' it in the subscription. The trouble there is that some people's definition of "so cheap that.." varies. But FFS lay off the technical side. Most of you don't seem to know what you're talking about and are raising objections that either aren't relevant or can be easily addressed. Concentrate on the pricing model but that's the bit that's difficult. CCP/Vivox might actually appreciate some suggestions there
Nicholas Barker Caldari Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.02 13:06:00 - [69] i'm only going to use it if it means i can send people taunting voice comes, like when a 50 person frigate gang warps into a bombing geddon, send the FC a nice loud "LAAAAAAAAAAWL!" ------------------------------------- Help! I'm stuck in a hXc gig, send real music and beer fast!
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.02 13:14:00 - [70] Personally while I think it's a neat idea it's kind of silly to try adding it now. TBH I would rather use VENT or TS. Integrated voice coms in a game like EVE is a bit um... over rated. I'd rather have a TS or Vent Server that I can connect to from anywhere, anytime without having to log into the game to use it. And at the price point they're listing? It's just not worth it.
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.02 13:45:00 - [71] Oh, I don't know. Seems like with it being integrated into the client, there are a lot of possibilities. They've talked about adding fleet, squadron, and wing groups to gangs. Imagine if the squadron commander could set the fleet channel to listen only or 'talk on TAB', but use caps lock to talk in squadron and listen as well. Building a voice channel would be as easy as forming a gang (or fleet, squadron, etc). The gang leader could just right click on the gang window and mute all. Opening a voice chat with a buddy wouldn't require them to log into your TS server. Spies would have to get into gangs to hear anything. New corps who join an alliance wouldn't have to distribute all the server and password information for the new alliance server. New members to a corp wouldn't need to install new software if the new corp doesn't use the same client. Everyone knows everyone else has the same tools available presuming they're using the voice functions (TS overlay, for example). Will I pay $1 a month for it? Sure, but only if a significant amount of other people do as well. Paying a dollar for a telephone every month is a great deal, but only if everyone you'd want to call also has a telephone. THAT's the only problem I see. Not being able to talk if the client isn't running is minor to me. It's not like I really have any need to talk to people in game if I'm not sitting there playing anyway. Login traps using a 3rd party program are lame, but they'll continue. Those people will simply continue to use what they're using now. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.02 14:34:00 - [72] Erm. TS/Vent _isn't_ free. Even if you've got a copy somewhere, it eats a useful amount of bandwidth. OK, so you may have that spare, but even so... I can see a lot of potential for integrated comms. Just imagine if you set up a 'gang lead' 'fleet command' 'covert ops' sort of chain, so you can automatically 'mute' when one of the 'key' people are reporting. Or just have some kind of 'talk to EW group' button, or that kind of thing. Not to mention being able to see who's talking, and where they are and stuff. Got a lot of potential, I have to say. My only real concern is that if it's a bit more on your sub, however negligable, it's also going to mean that some will refuse, or will otherwise be unable to get it (GTC buyers perhaps?). With vent/TS it only requires one person to host, and a few more to donate, before you can make it mandatory for PvP ops. After all, there's no excuse to log in, even if you don't have a mic. shrug I'm not too worried, because at the end of the day, I've still got access to vent/TS. If it's not up to the job, I won't use it. If it is, I'll happily pay a bit extra for some cool new functionality.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.02 14:48:00 - [73] The only way I see this working is to integrate some special features just for EVE, like command hierarchies where each squadran can talk amongst themselves but still hear certain commanders. TS can sort of do that, but if the EVE client can do it better it might be worth it. I'm sure a lot of people will use both the ingame comms and TS for backup, or just as a seperate comm channel. Maybe have the entire gang on TS for important info that everyone needs to hear with the ingame comms reserved for chatting inside different units in your fleet (like snipers, EW ships and so on).
Stoick Furious Ascent of Ages	Posted - 2006.10.02 14:53:00 - [74] I've only been playing the game for a week and a half now but I've already encountered so many game bugs and problems that could be easily fixed that I'd rather CCP actually polish their game before they spend all the extra time and effort integrating voice communications in. I mean the developers haven't even solved several lag problems and we're talking about adding another aspect to the game that will potentially make things much laggier. While CCP seems to do an admirable job at ommunicating with the community they don't seem to actually like implmeneting advice. I mean I've been here for literally less than two weeks and I can already point out atleast a half dozen quick and simple ways to reduce lag and server load and improve game play experience without actually altering anything that people would actually notice gameplay wise. To summarize, don't build another layer onto your game until you've fixed the ones you've already released. There's a massive forum listing of bugs, and people who are actually making suggestions in the development forum with very little response from CCP as far as I've seen. I hope that I'm wrong and it's just been an unusally slow two weeks for CCP. It just seems to me that a game that's been released for over two years shouldn't still have simple bugs, like naming secure cargo containers, and if they do, then the developer shouldn't be rolling out big upgrades until they're fixed.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.02 14:57:00 - [75] Quote: I've only been playing the game for a week and a half now but I've already encountered so many game bugs and problems that could be easily fixed that I'd rather CCP actually polish their game before they spend all the extra time and effort integrating voice communications in. Trust me, every time a new feature is mentioned, since the beta, people have stormed to the forums to demand CCP devote all their time to fixing bugs instead. If CCP listened we only just be getting the Exodus expansion that came out a year and a half ago. The truth is there will always be bugs, no matter how long they work on fixing them. Especially in a game like this. EVE is WAY more complicated than Planetside or WoW, it's inevitable that there'll be more bugs too. I've been playing since beta, I've seen tons of bugs come and go in that time, but you can never get them all.
Elgar1 Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2006.10.02 15:06:00 - [76] If it's a compulsory price hike then I'll not pay it. I'm already paying more in ú than all the US players who pay in $. My game fees are higher for this game than for any other MMO. It's a feature I don't like. It's a game feature I don't want. It's a game feature I'll not use. It's a game feature thats already available for free through TS and Vent. It's definately a game feature I'll not pay for.
Vikram Bedi	Posted - 2006.10.02 15:17:00 - [77] Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. People will continue to use TS because TS allows you to chat while offline and not only communicate during crashes, but also orchestrate lame things like login traps. 2. It costs money. 3. TS will handle more people more reliably. This all depends on the level of in game integration. If CCP gives us enough added functionality, people will drop TS in favor of the in game channel. Something as simple as automatically giving you a "talk to corp, talk to gang" switch would be great, and is totally impossible under TS.
Rina Shanu Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.10.02 15:23:00 - [78] Originally by: Dark Shikari 1. People will continue to use TS because TS allows you to chat while offline and not only communicate during crashes, but also orchestrate lame things like login traps. 2. It costs money. 3. TS will handle more people more reliably. Yeah DS but there are a lot of people in EVE that are not so well organised and do not or are not capable of using out of game voice comms. So those that use vent or ts have a unfair advantage over those that do not. having voice comm integrated in the game makes it a bit more fair. (IMHO those that do not use voice comms now will not use them when game incorporated or the number be small and only increase with time and most people in empire do not need voice comms unless in a war) my sig sucks
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.02 15:36:00 - [79] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 02/10/2006 15:37:23 Simply put: If it's an optional fee for an optional service: I'll opt out If it's a compulsory fee that I have to pay regardless of whether I want to or not: I'll probably de-subscribe. MMO's are expensive enough as is, thanks. I'm not about to pay EXTRA for a service I already get for free.
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2006.10.02 15:36:00 - [80] I wont use it, because my corporation doesent exist only in EvE. ----------------------------------------
Damisela Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.02 15:55:00 - [81] Integrated voice comms will put corps, who don't know how to get teamspeak/vent servers up, on a more even footing with those who do. Since voice comm is a huge tactical advantage, this is a good thing. If you think otherwise you might want to reconsider, since it puts you at the moral equivalent of a cheater.
Beef Hardslab	Posted - 2006.10.02 16:00:00 - [82] 1. Skype is free 2. Skype is free 3. Did I mention it's free?
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.10.02 16:35:00 - [83] logon traps are a lot harder to setup with integrated voice chat. apart from that i dont see why they shouldnt offer this service, i find this very remarkable lots of people use it, so why not offer it? ------ relaxed corp looking for members
SkeletonDenial Caldari ExCav Conglomerate The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.02 16:44:00 - [84] Edited by: SkeletonDenial on 02/10/2006 16:45:33 Originally by: Dark Shikari ....... If CCP gives us enough added functionality, people will drop TS in favor of the in game channel. Something as simple as automatically giving you a "talk to corp, talk to gang" switch would be great, and is totally impossible under TS. Vivox and Eve in the Garden of AGC Heres an article on it. The whole thing sounds cool to me due to the planned fetures that TS,VENT dont have like voice fonts, kick, ban, mute, roles, etc. I even go so far as to say I give up my 1 bottle of Dew every month to pay for this.
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.02 16:53:00 - [85] Originally by: James Lyrus Got a lot of potential, I have to say. Exactly. There's a ton of neat things that could be done with integrated voice chat, which people seem to be ignoring. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Sosus Red Caldari Thunderbolts The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2006.10.02 17:32:00 - [86] Originally by: Stoick Furious I've only been playing the game for a week and a half now . Im going to call you out on this...youve been playing for a week, exactly what are all these bugs you've encountered in that short time span? Ive been playing for three years and I rarely encounter bugs that I feel the need to whine about
Sosus Red Caldari Thunderbolts The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2006.10.02 17:35:00 - [87] Originally by: Taram Caldar Edited by: Taram Caldar on 02/10/2006 15:37:23 Simply put: If it's an optional fee for an optional service: I'll opt out If it's a compulsory fee that I have to pay regardless of whether I want to or not: I'll probably de-subscribe. MMO's are expensive enough as is, thanks. I'm not about to pay EXTRA for a service I already get for free. omg, if I have tp pay an exta $2 a month Ill quit!!! lol. Just dont go to McDonalds on night, if your that cheap. That'll save you $10 right there. You sound like a freeloader
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.02 17:42:00 - [88] Heh. It'd be nice if CCP could work some deal with Vivox just to prove to the world that VoIP can have a prominent place in MMOGs, not to mention as a paid service outside of games as an alternative to phone lines. Lots of mentions in articles, lots of showtime at conferences, add stuff to the trailers to show off voice fonts and in game voice comms, add a link to the paid service on the main page, etc, and get them to drop the price enough that CCP can absorb it into the existing premiums. Prove it can work seemlessly in a game like eve with as many people online at one time as we have, and there wouldn't be much question of it's viability. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Vikram Bedi	Posted - 2006.10.02 17:42:00 - [89] Originally by: SkeletonDenial Edited by: SkeletonDenial on 02/10/2006 16:54:49 Originally by: Dark Shikari ....... If CCP gives us enough added functionality, people will drop TS in favor of the in game channel. Something as simple as automatically giving you a "talk to corp, talk to gang" switch would be great, and is totally impossible under TS. Vivox and Eve in the Garden of AGC Here's an article on it. The whole thing sounds cool to me due to the planned features that TS,VENT dont have like voice fonts, kick, ban, mute, roles, etc. I'd even go so far as to say I would give up my 1 bottle of Dew every month to pay for this. Even better if you can pay for it with GTC's somehow.
Stoick Furious Ascent of Ages	Posted - 2006.10.02 17:44:00 - [90] Originally by: Xelios Trust me, every time a new feature is mentioned, since the beta, people have stormed to the forums to demand CCP devote all their time to fixing bugs instead. If CCP listened we only just be getting the Exodus expansion that came out a year and a half ago. Perhaps but you'd also have a finished game. It's not acceptable in other industries to charge headlong into developing addons without fixing production problems. Hell it's not even acceptable in the gaming industry. I'd sacrifice a new ship type for a game without bugs any day of the week. Originally by: Xelios The truth is there will always be bugs, no matter how long they work on fixing them. Especially in a game like this. EVE is WAY more complicated than Planetside or WoW, it's inevitable that there'll be more bugs too. I've been playing since beta, I've seen tons of bugs come and go in that time, but you can never get them all. It's got nothing to do with how technical other games are. In fact, EVE's engine is no doubt easier to work with than WOW for instance. The difference with WOW is that Blizzard is renowned for releasing polished games, even delaying them in order to ensure game quality. I don't think there's anything wrong with complaining about bugs for as long as I am paying for the game. If the bugs don't get fixed, I'll just stop playing and paying. That simple. CCP might not be worried. You may not be worried either right now, but in a year or so when you visit Jita and find that it's just you and 3 other people in there with Titan ships - you'll probably look back and wish that the developers had put more effort into fixing the bugs so that people still played the game.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.02 17:47:00 - [91] It wont work because to many corps play other games too and use the same vent/TS. Wherever you went - here you are.
Sosus Red Caldari Thunderbolts The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2006.10.02 18:03:00 - [92] Edited by: Sosus Red on 02/10/2006 18:05:20 Originally by: Stoick Furious Originally by: Xelios Trust me, every time a new feature is mentioned, since the beta, people have stormed to the forums to demand CCP devote all their time to fixing bugs instead. If CCP listened we only just be getting the Exodus expansion that came out a year and a half ago. Perhaps but you'd also have a finished game. Sorry to break it to you, in the MMO genre there is no such thing as a finished game. There are a lot of bugs in my Saints Row game. Is that a finished game? There are bugs in my Oblivion game. Would you consider that a finished game?
Idaeus Gallente Earned In Blood	Posted - 2006.10.02 18:06:00 - [93] Originally by: Xelios I'm sure a lot of people will use both the ingame comms and TS for backup, or just as a seperate comm channel. Maybe have the entire gang on TS for important info that everyone needs to hear with the ingame comms reserved for chatting inside different units in your fleet (like snipers, EW ships and so on). This is the way I intend to run it. +IOI?
Nicoli Voldkif Caelli-Merced	Posted - 2006.10.02 18:14:00 - [94] For all the nay sayers I see alot of advantages to this. My corp has been through about 13 TS/Vent servers. Why? because not all of us have the capavility to host one so when someone has the ability to host one we have one. when we don't have that person we're out of luck. Not to mention my corp does alot of work with alliances that we're not apart of and they don't want us to have access to thier TS server so again were out of luck. What this feature will hopefully allow us is the following: 1.VOIP server that is not depenndant on one person 2.The Ability to have single use Gang VOIP server(great when working with our alliance friends) 3. Ability to squash conversation when important info needs to go out 4. Ability to easily switch between Gang/Corp/Alliance (hopefully at least) Yes I can host a VIOP server but I only have DSL which has a crappy upload rate which would lag me out plus the fun part or making sure the PC doesn't get rebooted. So my corp has decided to go for the new intergrated Voice chat at the start and see how it works. Whether or not we will stick with it is a whole other story.
BlackSabbath Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.02 19:03:00 - [95] i ll buy a time card and try it for a month. with isk ofcourse ================================ "i am only here to **** you off"

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