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Sticky:[Scylla] Bouncer Sentry Drone Optimal and Falloff

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CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 12246	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:20:13 - [1] - Quote Hello everyone. We are updating Singularity as we speak with the first testing versions of our Scylla release coming immediately after Fanfest. If you've been watching CCP Rise's tweets, you already know that we have some important balance changes in the works and that more info will be coming this week. I'm making threads right now for two of the sets of changes coming in Scylla, and for details of the rest you should watch the o7 show tonight at 20:00 EVE Time and keep your eyes peeled for a Dev Blog that will drop in the coming days. I'm making threads for this subset of the planned changes today because these are the ones that are already running in today's SISI update. There are a number of balance issues that are being looked at surrounding Sentry Drones and the ships that use them, and more info on that will be revealed later. However one smaller tweak that I can announce now is that we are shifting some of the base optimal range on Bouncer sentry drones over to falloff. The change removes 5km of base optimal for T1 Bouncers (6km for T1 and Navy) and adds the same value to falloff. These are not the only balance changes coming in Scylla. All the details on those changes will be released in an upcoming dev blog. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Lazei Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation 60	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:26:39 - [2] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The change removes 5km of base optimal for T1 Bouncers (6km for T1 and Navy) and adds the same value to falloff. Says T1 on both. Is the 6km from T2?
dexter xio TURN LEFT 73	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:27:16 - [3] - Quote Hmm, interesting. NOFUN Diplomat xd

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 12247	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:28:35 - [4] - Quote Lazei wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The change removes 5km of base optimal for T1 Bouncers (6km for T1 and Navy) and adds the same value to falloff. Says T1 on both. Is the 6km from T2? Yup Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Mimiko Severovski Zero Fun Allowed 6	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:32:59 - [5] - Quote Good change.
Destoya Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 366	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:34:37 - [6] - Quote BLACK OPS HYPE
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1005	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:45:07 - [7] - Quote if it were me I'd do something like -40% or -50% optimal and falloff reduction on all sentry drones, or just remove them.
Swanky nutjob The Scope Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:47:56 - [8] - Quote Tracking is the problem, not optimal. Rise and Fozzie, killing off 0.0 by one poorly thought out balance change, one after another.
Winter Archipelago Furtherance. 344	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:50:32 - [9] - Quote Swanky nutjob wrote: Tracking is the problem, not optimal. Rise and Fozzie, killing off 0.0 by one poorly thought out balance change, one after another. Better to have multiple smaller changes that nail the issue completely (in the end) than one single massive change that completely ruins it. Ransoms are accepted in Isk, Mods, Ships, and Dolls.
Faife Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 279	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:50:43 - [10] - Quote Swanky nutjob wrote: Tracking is the problem, not optimal. Rise and Fozzie, killing off 0.0 by one poorly thought out balance change, one after another. I can see how you read that first post and thought that the minor falloff/optimal tweak was the only change that's coming in Scylla and nothing else was being changed. Emphasis on "you".

Princess Cherista State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:52:32 - [11] - Quote Paging Dinsdale
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 1331	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:58:44 - [12] - Quote Princess Cherista wrote: Paging Dinsdale Dinsdale hasn't posted since September 2014. I think he quit Eve. :( I miss him. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1098	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:06:31 - [13] - Quote i would hope some dps nerfs are incoming?? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Vince Draken Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 38	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:07:46 - [14] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The change removes 5km of base optimal for T1 Bouncers (6km for T2 and Navy) and adds the same value to falloff. . Tracking is your problem friend a ship with no tracking / damage mods using sentrys still hits the smallest of ships pretty easy bring sentrys in line with every other drone (Small / Medium / Large)
colera deldios 293	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:33:57 - [15] - Quote This is perfect the problem with Ishtar is the Drone Control range and Targeting range. With this Sentry drone change if you also: * Remove Ishtars drone control range bonus * Reduce Ishtars base targeting range by 7.5km * Reduce Ishtars CPU by 25 We get perfectly balanced Ishtar. DPS is really not the problem with Ishtars since you can easily just add more ships. Anyhow with these changes Ishtar is still viable at current ranges but they have to sacrifice that for a big hole in their tank. And if they want to retain tank they have to fight at closer ranges which means doctrines like Legions, Lokis, Zealots, Absos, ANR and even BS doctrines can take them on and then the skill falls onto the FC's and fleet members.
Schneevva Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 6	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:43:47 - [16] - Quote Will the day come when you're finally ready to admit that the real problem is that they all just have too much DPS/alpha for their range?
Altirius Saldiaro Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 297	Posted - 2015.02.26 19:09:15 - [17] - Quote Just make EWAR that hits a ship, affect that ship's drones. Tracking Disruption Sensor Dampening ECM Why is it that I can EWAR an Ishtar, but that Ishtar continues to provide bonuses to it's drones from it's fitted modules? At the very least, make it so that certain EWAR affects the bonuses provided by Drone Upgrade modules. EWAR is an already in-game counter weapon. Instead of nerfing ships and drones, give us the ability to use already in-game tools so that we can counter them ourselves.
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 1097	Posted - 2015.02.26 19:15:16 - [18] - Quote Or just make some absolute distinctions between sentries and heavy drones. Ishtar and navy vexor, bandwidth down to 100. Ishtar dronebay down to 225. Heavy drones bandwidth changed from 25 to 20. Ishtar and navy vexor loses 20% of its dps potential when using sentry drones. Keeps all of its dps when using heavies. Ishtar no longer can have a dronebay the size of a battleship (dronebay the size of the prophecy). Half the problems fixed right there. Yaay!!!!
Feodor Romanov Caldari Special Forces OLD MAN GANG 11	Posted - 2015.02.26 19:34:55 - [19] - Quote This changes will not change anything really. The problem of centry drones is in tracking. But not only the sentry drones is the problem. All Gallente droneboats is the most preferable ships in their class: Tristan. Algos, Vexor, Navy Vexor, Ishtar. Main reasons: - can use any tank: shield, armor, hull; - kite effectively or use thick tank; - great possibilities for fitting - any damage type - best E-war protection I have some thoughts what to do with them. 1. Restrict ship bonuses by thermal damage type. They can still use any drones they want but much less effective. 2. Devide ship doubled drones bonuses. For example: ships can have 10% to drones damage OR to drones HP; bonus 7,5% to drones max velocity or to tracking speed. Like all other ships have.
Anthar Thebess 891	Posted - 2015.02.26 19:48:34 - [20] - Quote 2 ship types that are issues for sentry drones : - isthars - carriers Solution: Ishtar: 1. reduce bandwidth to 100mb/s 2. adjust hvy drone bandwidth to 20mb Carriers: 1. [Capital Remote AID Rebalance](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=405279) 2. Create Capital Drone Link Augmentor for carriers 5k m3 size 30km range , only 1 per carrier. Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.

Chance Ravinne WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 110	Posted - 2015.02.26 19:57:55 - [21] - Quote Phoenix Jones wrote: Or just make some absolute distinctions between sentries and heavy drones. Ishtar and navy vexor, bandwidth down to 100. Ishtar dronebay down to 225. Heavy drones bandwidth changed from 25 to 20. Ishtar and navy vexor loses 20% of its dps potential when using sentry drones. Keeps all of its dps when using heavies. Ishtar no longer can have a dronebay the size of a battleship (dronebay the size of the prophecy). Half the problems fixed right there. This sounds like a more reasonable approach to me, though it would certainly impact more ships. For instance, any ship with 40m3 can now field two heavies. You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Nolak Ataru KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 678	Posted - 2015.02.26 20:25:42 - [22] - Quote http://eveion.blogspot.com/2013/12/ccp-introduces-balancing-on-fly.html Link related
Reagalan Amok. Goonswarm Federation 56	Posted - 2015.02.26 20:25:48 - [23] - Quote This isn't nearly a big enough change.
Komodo Askold No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad 304	Posted - 2015.02.26 20:32:29 - [24] - Quote Thank you for showing your interest on the issue with sentry drones and their ships. Again, better have numerous small changes than one single big change with the risk of breaking something else elsewhere. Looking forward to more information.
NSA Bivas BURN EDEN Northern Coalition. 8	Posted - 2015.02.26 20:50:09 - [25] - Quote booked YouTube Channel Twitch Channel-á
ImageQuest Caldari Provisions Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.02.26 22:13:42 - [26] - Quote On the similiar note...Dominix would do well with half of its high slots. Since they have no guns anymore their high slots are used mostly for neuts...deadzoning close proximity and killing doctrines like ahacs.
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 1099	Posted - 2015.02.26 22:54:54 - [27] - Quote Chance Ravinne wrote: Phoenix Jones wrote: Or just make some absolute distinctions between sentries and heavy drones. Ishtar and navy vexor, bandwidth down to 100. Ishtar dronebay down to 225. Heavy drones bandwidth changed from 25 to 20. Ishtar and navy vexor loses 20% of its dps potential when using sentry drones. Keeps all of its dps when using heavies. Ishtar no longer can have a dronebay the size of a battleship (dronebay the size of the prophecy). Half the problems fixed right there. This sounds like a more reasonable approach to me, though it would certainly impact more ships. For instance, any ship with 40m3 can now field two heavies. Ships with 50 bandwidth can currently field two heavies. I dont remember the last time I saw a thorax, arbitrator, or any ship with that bandwidth. You lose out on mobility and tracking with heavies vs others. Unbounused those things are slow. Yaay!!!!
Jennifer Maxwell Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 231	Posted - 2015.02.26 23:01:18 - [28] - Quote Feodor Romanov wrote: This changes will not change anything really. The problem of centry drones is in tracking. But not only the sentry drones is the problem. All Gallente droneboats is the most preferable ships in their class: Tristan. Algos, Vexor, Navy Vexor, Ishtar. Main reasons: - can use any tank: shield, armor, hull; - kite effectively or use thick tank; - great possibilities for fitting - any damage type - best E-war protection I have some thoughts what to do with them. 1. Restrict ship bonuses by thermal damage type. They can still use any drones they want but much less effective. 2. Devide ship doubled drones bonuses. For example: ships can have 10% to drones damage OR to drones HP; bonus 7,5% to drones max velocity or to tracking speed. Like all other ships have. You bring up a very good point. Why AREN'T Gallente ballanced towards one type of damage? Gallente are blaster boats, so that's kinetic and thermal. Caldari are blaster boats, kinetic and thermal. But the majority of Caldari ships that are missile, are also restricted to having bonuses for kinetic. The minority of Gallente ships are thus restricted; only the Gallente cov ops frigate come to mind. Why is there an exception?
Daide Vondrichnov SnaiLs aNd FroGs 25	Posted - 2015.02.26 23:02:30 - [29] - Quote Phoenix Jones wrote: Chance Ravinne wrote: Phoenix Jones wrote: Or just make some absolute distinctions between sentries and heavy drones. Ishtar and navy vexor, bandwidth down to 100. Ishtar dronebay down to 225. Heavy drones bandwidth changed from 25 to 20. Ishtar and navy vexor loses 20% of its dps potential when using sentry drones. Keeps all of its dps when using heavies. Ishtar no longer can have a dronebay the size of a battleship (dronebay the size of the prophecy). Half the problems fixed right there. This sounds like a more reasonable approach to me, though it would certainly impact more ships. For instance, any ship with 40m3 can now field two heavies. Ships with 50 bandwidth can currently field two heavies. I dont remember the last time I saw a thorax, arbitrator, or any ship with that bandwidth. You lose out on mobility and tracking with heavies vs others. Unbounused those things are slow. you lose dps aswel, 5 medium are better than 2 heavies, more dps, better application etc...
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 51	Posted - 2015.02.27 00:12:40 - [30] - Quote Reagalan wrote: This isn't nearly a big enough change. CCP Fozzie wrote: There are a number of balance issues that are being looked at surrounding Sentry Drones and the ships that use them, and more info on that will be revealed later. However one smaller tweak that I can announce now is that we are shifting some of the base optimal range on Bouncer sentry drones over to falloff. There's more coming. Anthar Thebess wrote: 2. adjust hvy drone bandwidth to 20mb That affects many more ships than just the Ishtar. Suddenly the Myrmidon, for example, can field a full set of heavies. It would take more work than it seems to balance the drone ships again.

Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 297	Posted - 2015.02.27 00:52:15 - [31] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: 2. adjust hvy drone bandwidth to 20mb That affects many more ships than just the Ishtar. Suddenly the Myrmidon, for example, can field a full set of heavies. It would take more work than it seems to balance the drone ships again. Ahh those were the good old days :( And no, limiting Gal to just Therm Damage Drones is just lame. Every race has a pro and con to their weapon systems. Lasers have the fast reload. Missiles and Projectiles use no cap and have selectable damage. Dronee/Boats need some balance work done, that's for sure, but taking Gal down to single damage type isn't it. Nor is nerfing them all across the board. The end of the day, the issue is Sentries, and the Ishtar. Navy Vexor is strong, but expensive, without high resists, and you aren't going to see them take over after any Ishtar Nerf. As for the HP vs Damage bonuses.. Gotta remember, Drones are the only system where you can disarm a ship. On Drone-based ships HP can be very important.. unless you are going to let us replenish drones from Cargo just like you can with Ammo. Without the need to dock/use a depot/etc.
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 1100	Posted - 2015.02.27 03:34:14 - [32] - Quote Taking heavies Down to 20 bandwidth affects the vexor and prophecy (they would both have a different optimal load out, but would suffer with applied dps from the slower heavies). It affects the proteus, stratios, and myrmidon as they all get the option of fielding 5 heavies, but also suffer from the issue of applied damage (droneboat proteus and myrmidon are not widely used fleet comps in regards to how the Ishtar is currently). most people will continue to use mediums unless against a battleship, where heavies would be a better option. Neither are situations that are presently unbalanced or an issue currently. Yaay!!!!
Ines Tegator Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc. 565	Posted - 2015.02.27 05:54:40 - [33] - Quote Bouncer nerf misses the point. So does the announced Ishtar nerf of reducing the damage bonus. Tracking is the problem. Sentries are a BS sized weapon systems. They should not be able to track frigates and cruisers at close range. Sub-BS hulls should not get tracking bonuses to them. With their native high tracking, PLUS the tracking bonus on many ship hulls, sentry drones can apply their BS sized DPS to medium sized or smaller ships, and do it without need for webs or target painters. This should not be possible. Drones already offer the flexibility of being able to swap weapon class at will. No other weapon system can do this; it's part of their design and their key advantage. By carrying a stock of Light drones in their hold, even a BS can engage frigate sized targets. However, by changing your weapon class, you also change your DPS class. A Dominix using Light Drones is doing a fraction of it's DPS potential; this is a worthwhile tradeoff to hit small targets that would be able to speed tank you otherwise. Sentries don't need to make that tradeoff; that's why they are OP. Putting tracking bonuses on drone boats was a mistake that should never have been made; it sabotages the entire design philosophy of drones. Without the tracking bonuses, sentries are no more powerful then equivalent BS guns. This is how it should be. Be able to down-class at will to engage a smaller target is already a huge advantage. Overhaul Dscan! Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
Ines Tegator Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc. 565	Posted - 2015.02.27 06:01:00 - [34] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: 2. adjust hvy drone bandwidth to 20mb Quote: That affects many more ships than just the Ishtar. Suddenly the Myrmidon, for example, can field a full set of heavies. It would take more work than it seems to balance the drone ships again. Considering how crap heavy drones are (mostly their speed and ease of killing them, and lack of instant dps application), I'm ok with that. Right now, there is no reason I would ever use a heavy drone. This change would give them their niche. Also, drone bay should be a balance factor considered here. A VNI for example can only carry one flight of heavies/sentries, plus a a handful of backup drones or a smaller flight, but not both. Shooting them down to disable their DPS is a viable strategy. The Ishtar, on the other hand, is a different matter with its 375 m3 drone bay - that's three full sets of heavies to shoot through. Overhaul Dscan! Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
Swanky nutjob The Scope Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2015.02.27 06:07:00 - [35] - Quote Faife wrote: Swanky nutjob wrote: Tracking is the problem, not optimal. Rise and Fozzie, killing off 0.0 by one poorly thought out balance change, one after another. I can see how you read that first post and thought that the minor falloff/optimal tweak was the only change that's coming in Scylla and nothing else was being changed. Emphasis on "you". The damage bonus changes nothing.
Aiyshimin Fistful of Finns Triumvirate. 404	Posted - 2015.02.27 07:55:33 - [36] - Quote Ines Tegator wrote: Bouncer nerf misses the point. So does the announced Ishtar nerf of reducing the damage bonus. Tracking is the problem. Sentries are a BS sized weapon systems. They should not be able to track frigates and cruisers at close range. Correct, they shouldn't, and they don't.
Swanky nutjob The Scope Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2015.02.27 10:24:45 - [37] - Quote That is true but they're pretty good at all other ranges. THere is after all a reason why people abuse the **** out of Bouncers and Curators.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 758	Posted - 2015.02.27 10:27:54 - [38] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: Ines Tegator wrote: Bouncer nerf misses the point. So does the announced Ishtar nerf of reducing the damage bonus. Tracking is the problem. Sentries are a BS sized weapon systems. They should not be able to track frigates and cruisers at close range. Correct, they shouldn't, and they don't. Thank god the ishtars can't just dump the drones and run. Phew! Oh. Wait.
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER 7	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:34:45 - [39] - Quote Sentries do not need fixing. Simply remove the dreaded drone-assist and the Drone Damage Amp modules, which fixes all kinds of drone-related problems.
Panther X High Flyers The Kadeshi 48	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:44:51 - [40] - Quote Altirius Saldiaro wrote: Just make EWAR that hits a ship, affect that ship's drones. Tracking Disruption Sensor Dampening ECM Why is it that I can EWAR an Ishtar, but that Ishtar continues to provide bonuses to it's drones from it's fitted modules? At the very least, make it so that certain EWAR affects the bonuses provided by Drone Upgrade modules. EWAR is an already in-game counter weapon. Instead of nerfing ships and drones, give us the ability to use already in-game tools so that we can counter them ourselves. You forgot that Ewar is still broken. It's time to fix it so that ECM freaking works. But yes that is a good idea. My super smells of rich Corinthian Leather

Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1142	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:05:49 - [41] - Quote I feel that this change is more cosmetic than anything else. What is it supposed to accomplish when considered in conjunction with the other drone-related changes; Ishtar nerf? http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 1102	Posted - 2015.02.27 15:58:05 - [42] - Quote They are trying to address the symptom and not the cause, because people hate direct ship nerfs (see the fighters changes thread). It has to happen regardless. Yaay!!!!
Ben Ishikela 17	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:08:30 - [43] - Quote It seems like CCP has more Data on the use of the different types of sentry drones than they let us know. I can only approve upon this Change to the Bouncer if id see the graphs. If the bouncer is 5% more used than any other sentry and therefore nerfed, then i understand this neccessary change. please more GraphPron for less offtopic -1s. No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content! It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
GsyBoy Hooded Underworld Guys Northern Coalition. 12	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:27:40 - [44] - Quote As stated above really... Agree changes are required and sad to lose the Ishtar as a very capable and disposable ratter however changing sentries is not the answer as this will effect more than the Ishtar. I am guessing when sentries where be conceived the idea was for a powerful drone for a bigger class of vessel. If so, just increase bandwidth to 50 and increase battleships which are designed for drones such as the Domi, Rattlesnake, Sin. By drop the power of sentries you are indirectly reducing these battleships effectiveness which already have the bomb threat that the Ishtar/T3 doesnGÇÖt. More simple solution is to restrict sentries to BS class or reduced the Ishtar bandwidth. That being said one change to sentries that can be made is to make more of a sniper (low damage high range) and brawler (high damage, close range) classes. This divide is currently too close. However I feel the GÇÿsolutionGÇÖ to this GÇÿproblemGÇÖ is not neffing sentries.
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1143	Posted - 2015.02.27 16:39:55 - [45] - Quote I guess this will very slightly reduce applied dps at long range. WIth the reduction to the Ishtar's sentry drone damage bonus, this will further nerf them, but only at the limits of their engagement range. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Erufen Rito The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People 360	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:40:07 - [46] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: Our thoughts: - First, we wanted to establish whether the problem was more about the Ishtar or more about Sentry Drones. The data makes a pretty convincing case that it really is mostly the Ishtar. While several other ships (Dominix, Navy Vexor, Archon, etc.) are making use of sentries, none of them are anywhere near as sentry reliant as the Ishtar and none of them are coming close to the overall damage that Ishtars represent on TQ I am honestly hoping you mean on a ship by ship basis. However, it sounds like you just did a query for Ishtar damage, and used that number, and compared it to "battleship" damage, and compared them both. The immediate issue with that is, I find more Ishtar blobs on any given day, than Battleship blobs. So, I hope you meant on a ship by ship scenario. CCP Rise wrote: After deciding to just make a change to Ishtars, we considered what approach would be the most elegant. Options included changes to the bonuses, changes to base attributes (moving a mid slot was one example here), or possibly screwing around with sentry drone bandwidth use and adjusting other ships as needed. Eventually we settled on the bonuses, even though it means having the only drone damage bonus below 10% per level in the game. My main issue is tha, now a solo ishtar will fall short compared with any other HAC. I am NOT against balance, however I am against balance based on blob meta. The true underlying problem with drones as a whole is STILL drone assist. So you limited 5 ships per assistee. Last I checked, most fleets have 2-3 fast tackle ships. It takes away nothing to bring more instalock ceptors, have them kite to hell, and press F1 to engage 25 sentries at once. The problem is not the hull, it is drone assist. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Alexhandr Shkarov Swamphole Inc. 10	Posted - 2015.02.28 04:15:36 - [47] - Quote Swanky nutjob wrote: Tracking is the problem, not optimal. Rise and Fozzie, killing off 0.0 by one poorly thought out balance change, one after another. The problem with sentry drones is their use for very long-range engagements. Reducing their effective range potentially means closer warp-ins, allowing more counters for the Ishtar to manifest itself.
Smurfette Zoohl Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.02.28 11:07:12 - [48] - Quote Good thing...there trackin/optm was too good. While at it you could consider removing some high slots from domi. They were useful back in the days when domi actually used guns. Now it makes them killing weapons at short range. 3 slots would be more than enough.
Ben Hump KackarschClubstation 0	Posted - 2015.02.28 11:23:37 - [49] - Quote As on the Ishtar and the Tengu, just make them have different values for PvE vs PvP. To nerf the whole class makes it near impossible for individuals to do high level missions, or WH sleeper missions. And not everyone wants to join a corp etc. A lot of those changes will force people to either join a corp, or become so ineffective on their own, they will quit. Ben
Flaming Butterfly Black Serpent Technologies Black Legion. 2	Posted - 2015.02.28 17:18:50 - [50] - Quote You want more BS's on field... set Sentry Tracking to their BS Turret equivalent. [Base Stats] Gardes and Wardens to 425's. Garde II has base 0.036, Warden II has 0.012; 425mm Rail II is 0.01 Bouncers to 1400's; Bouncer II has 0.19; 1400mm II has 0.009 Curators to Tach's; Curator II has 0.028; Tachs have 0.014 Why take out a BS that tanks like crap after you fill mids/lows for sniping when an Ishtar. EFT Ishtard + 2 omni TE II + 2 DDA II = Tracking: Bouncers = 0.027; Garde = 0.051; Curator = 0.039; Warden = 0.017 DPS: Bouncer = 528; Curator = 553; Getting Range of BS weapon to about that of Racial Sentry Drone Apoc + Tach II + 2 TE II + 5 HS II = 576 DPS with Gamma L; Tracking is 0.028 Mael + 1400 II + 2 TE II + 2 Gyro II = 210 DPS with Nuclear L; Tracking is 0.014 Temp + 1400 II + 3 Gyro II + 2 TC II (tracking) = 354 DPS with Tremor L; Tracking however is 0.005 Temp + 1400 II + 3 Gyro II + 2 TC II (tracking) = 221 DPS with Nuke L; Tracking however is 0.019 Things only get better with the Garde II and slightly better for the Warden II. Ishtards are the only ship where you drop a horde of sentries and scoot ass away to avoid dps. What incentive is there to take out a Domi, Geddon, Apoc, Tempest, Rohk, Megathron (domi and geddon, even tho drone boats, are too slow to burn away) for range when the Ishtar optimal range bonus and the inherently OP sentry tracking are causing inbalance and an entire set of ships to gather dust. Ishtard New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage HAC tracking bonus is the issue... swap it for drone velocity bonus so they get in faster +5m control range and sentry optimal 10% drone velocity For too long BS's have been gathering dust since T3's and OP Hac's took their place... Why shouldn't a BS have a better electronics suite and lock minimum of 120km to be less vulnerable to damps, Long range weapons have greater tracking (and less damn PG because fitting them *** tank on armor ships) to overcome TD's, more sensor strength, and faster scan res? You've designed them out of the fight and into just missioning and some WH's. Battleships should be a thing feared, not laughed at. Please balance Worm and Gila now.

Tanasus SolorVentus 16	Posted - 2015.02.28 19:59:26 - [51] - Quote Nip / Tuck Lately, most important of all is what it will cut CCP.........eveonline increasingly begins to resemble some of the Facebook game. Some ships already have them as an article on Market, Ishtar will follow their Destiny. Keep balance ... success
ashley Eoner 451	Posted - 2015.02.28 21:53:14 - [52] - Quote Ines Tegator wrote: Bouncer nerf misses the point. So does the announced Ishtar nerf of reducing the damage bonus. Tracking is the problem. Sentries are a BS sized weapon systems. They should not be able to track frigates and cruisers at close range. Sub-BS hulls should not get tracking bonuses to them. With their native high tracking, PLUS the tracking bonus on many ship hulls, sentry drones can apply their BS sized DPS to medium sized or smaller ships, and do it without need for webs or target painters. This should not be possible. Drones already offer the flexibility of being able to swap weapon class at will. No other weapon system can do this; it's part of their design and their key advantage. By carrying a stock of Light drones in their hold, even a BS can engage frigate sized targets. However, by changing your weapon class, you also change your DPS class. A Dominix using Light Drones is doing a fraction of it's DPS potential; this is a worthwhile tradeoff to hit small targets that would be able to speed tank you otherwise. Sentries don't need to make that tradeoff; that's why they are OP. Putting tracking bonuses on drone boats was a mistake that should never have been made; it sabotages the entire design philosophy of drones. Without the tracking bonuses, sentries are no more powerful then equivalent BS guns. This is how it should be. Be able to down-class at will to engage a smaller target is already a huge advantage. Do you even know how much tracking sentry drones have? I can sit here and list hundreds of battleship fits that have far more tracking with large guns and similar ranges. Rails always have had abysmal tracking compared to other large turret choices. Terrible comparison.
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery Prolapse. 2128	Posted - 2015.03.01 01:33:32 - [53] - Quote I find the idea of nerfing a weapon system based on the poor balance you have made of one ship a bit bizarre. So what if bouncers are popular? 100MN AFK Ishtars are popular in Guristas space, ratting with Navy Wasps, but you aren't nerfing the Navy Wasp even though AFKtars are basically broken. As pointed out previously, tracking is the problem. Fozzie, here's my analysis, in case you missed it. The rise and rise of the ishtar, Gila and Rattler is related as much to the fitting as the weapons and ship bonuses. You seem to have ignored the fact you've added highslot drone buff modules, midslot drone buff modules, and lowslot drone buff modules. A viable shield kiting ishtar fit can and often does have all of these. The Bouncer isn't the problem - the proliferation of drone buff modules is the problem. Moving the Bouncer's DPS envelope from optimal out into more Falloff (as a hole) is fine, but people already use Omnidirectional Tracking links, Omnidirectional Tracking Computers, DDA's, etc etc. Maybe you can reverse the Omnilink out of the lowslot, just rid us of this unneccessary drone buff module, hmm? Or maybe give us highslot weapon tracking or TP modules to fill our utility highs with on, eg, the Ferox, or everything with utility highs (most ships). That would adddress tthe roblem by making every other ship have awesomesauce. Prolapse. Taking fights since 2014. Sudden Buggery. Got duumb? Hola, Batmanuel! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
Sabriz Adoudel Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 4761	Posted - 2015.03.01 03:17:12 - [54] - Quote Sensible change. Bouncers will remain good. Time will tell if this is enough or not. Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 307	Posted - 2015.03.01 06:45:04 - [55] - Quote I agree fully that Sentries need to be balanced more closely to their BS Turret stats found in actual Use. They are fixed guns, they don't move, meaning they always have perfect tracking on their side. Combine that the hull and modules to bonus that, and suddenly they are silly OP vs guns on a normal ship. This hurts even more when you can control them at range, and at speeds that would normally make BS grade guns miss the broadside of a stationary Titan. Now the mods are fine, though might need some balance work. Guns have the same mods as drones have, Lows for Damage, and Tracking+Range, as well as Scripted Mid's for Tracking/Range. The high slot adds control range, but that really doesn't mach up with anything that normal guns would have. As was suggested above, maybe a highslot Target Painter? Or a mod that wouldn't work with drones at all, a highslot scanner/sensor that improves Signature Resolution on Turrets and Explosion Radius on Missiles? Just a reminder btw Missiles still don't have their Lowslot equivalent to Tracking Enhancers.. Another option might be to have Sentries Tracking, Signature Resolution, etc degrade the farther away they are from your ship.. or at least in the range added by Hull/Highslot bonuses.. Anyway, while this is a step in the right direction, I don't think it's enough. And I for one would like to see drones nerfed more, so we can FINALLY get proper Drone Rigs (Damage for all sizes, not just Sentries for example..), as well as Hardwires and Boosters.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 866	Posted - 2015.03.01 08:53:23 - [56] - Quote GsyBoy wrote: As stated above really... Agree changes are required and sad to lose the Ishtar as a very capable and disposable ratter however changing sentries is not the answer as this will effect more than the Ishtar. I am guessing when sentries where be conceived the idea was for a powerful drone for a bigger class of vessel. If so, just increase bandwidth to 50 and increase battleships which are designed for drones such as the Domi, Rattlesnake, Sin. By drop the power of sentries you are indirectly reducing these battleships effectiveness which already have the bomb threat that the Ishtar/T3 doesnGÇÖt. More simple solution is to restrict sentries to BS class or reduced the Ishtar bandwidth. That being said one change to sentries that can be made is to make more of a sniper (low damage high range) and brawler (high damage, close range) classes. This divide is currently too close. However I feel the GÇÿsolutionGÇÖ to this GÇÿproblemGÇÖ is not neffing sentries. Sentries were fine before the introduction of the drone modules. That's when things went sideways. The introduction of the drone modules created the OP ishtar and the archons after downtime mess. Sometimes when you add one thing (drone modules) then you need to take away another (sentries from non BS hulls) to maintain balance. It appears that CCP is determined to do everything but balance out the addition of the drone modules. I think a lot of it has to do with effort. Changing the optimal on a given drone requires the coders to change 1 number. Making sentries BS only drones would require coders to actually code. Quick and easy is not equivalent to best. Come on CCP coders HTFU and actually fix the issue. (Sentry becomes BS only drone).
McChicken Combo HalfMayo The Happy Meal 408	Posted - 2015.03.01 10:15:05 - [57] - Quote GsyBoy wrote: That being said one change to sentries that can be made is to make more of a sniper (low damage high range) and brawler (high damage, close range) classes. This divide is currently too close. Spot on. I would have liked to see Bouncers lose DPS and get more range. Garde would keep the same DPS and lose a bit of range. Curator then Warden would fill the gap between. Tracking would decrease from bottom (Garde) to top (Bouncer). Serendipity Lost wrote: Sentries were fine before the introduction of the drone modules. That's when things went sideways. The introduction of the drone modules created the OP ishtar and the archons after downtime mess. The prototype Ishtar fit for blobs does not usually employ any of those modules. ~ Bookmarks in overview ~ Fleet improvements
M1k3y Koontz Aether Ventures Surely You're Joking 652	Posted - 2015.03.01 21:24:14 - [58] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: if it were me I'd do something like -40% or -50% optimal and falloff reduction on all sentry drones, or just remove them. Then they wouldn't even be able to hit towers, and they'd be entirely useless. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Delt0r Garsk Shits N Giggles 311	Posted - 2015.03.04 10:33:38 - [59] - Quote Sometimes i wounder if people posting here play eve. Swapping Optimal to falloff, is the same as leaving "range" the same and reducing DPS. Since you have to be closer to have the same damage potential as previously, it now tracks you worse. And less damage than before. Range is the obvious way to solve tracking issues. And no sentry's right now don't track like they use to now Ominis get stacking penelities. And any serious minatar pilot expects to use their weapons in falloff. Death and Glory! Well fun is also good.
Freelancer117 So you want to be a Hero 270	Posted - 2015.03.04 14:32:19 - [60] - Quote Quote: The change removes 5km of base optimal for T1 Bouncers (6km for T2 and Navy) and adds the same value to falloff. Nice catch The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans. http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg GÇÖChilde Roland to the Dark Tower came.GÇÖ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY3oMRLfArU

Josef Djugashvilis 2909	Posted - 2015.03.04 18:37:45 - [61] - Quote I had kind of hoped that after messing around with drones for the best part of two years, CCP might leave them alone for a while. This is not a signature.
St'oto Hell's Death Squad Templis CALSF 5	Posted - 2015.03.07 18:55:17 - [62] - Quote Grytok wrote: Sentries do not need fixing. Simply remove the dreaded drone-assist and the Drone Damage Amp modules, which fixes all kinds of drone-related problems. Ya that's the way to balance everything, remove features. /sarcasm. Seriously? I'm not even a drone focused character, nor do I even use the ishtar as much I did before it was buffed. (I used the Ishtar back in the day. But right now my "personal" flavor of the month has been T3s. For quite a long time. Anyways, we need the additional modules. Drone damage amps, etc. Removing those will not fix the issues. It will create more. Drones finally have nearly all the modules that other weapon systems have. Now they just need another look in terms of balance. Well not drones in their entirety. Just sentries to be honest. As they are honestly OP. How do you fix it? To be honest I'd say nerf the tracking on them. I agree they can hit all manner of targets at rather insane ranges. So being able to track AND do damage with such "precision" is rather insane. So to fix that, nerf their tracking. You "could" also nerf their damage. But to be honest, we should start small. Nerf the tracking, see how it pans out. If they are still OP, revisit their damage. We don't need the types of nerfs we used to get. Aka Drake, Hurricane, etc. Where nerfing something didn't mean balancing. It meant making it absolutely freaking useless for ANY application. CCP seems to be finally doing away with "mentality" so let's not return to it. (Well besides skynet but considering I'm NO EXPECT by any means in that department, I won't even comment on it.)
St'oto Hell's Death Squad Templis CALSF 5	Posted - 2015.03.07 19:05:55 - [63] - Quote Tanasus wrote: Nip / Tuck Lately, most important of all is what it will cut CCP.........eveonline increasingly begins to resemble some of the Facebook game. Some ships already have them as an article on Market, Ishtar will follow their Destiny. Keep balance ... success I seriously don't even know how to to respond to this comment. EVe is increasingly becoming some of the facebook games? How on earth do you figure? Please for god sakes, ELABORATE! Or just don't post. Either way we will all at the very least not lose brain cells trying to analyze your post.
Shandra Manaya Prision Break Inc. Northern Associates. 5	Posted - 2015.03.09 23:45:14 - [64] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hello everyone. We are updating Singularity as we speak with the first testing versions of our Scylla release coming immediately after Fanfest. If you've been watching CCP Rise's tweets, you already know that we have some important balance changes in the works and that more info will be coming this week. I'm making threads right now for two of the sets of changes coming in Scylla, and for details of the rest you should watch the o7 show tonight at 20:00 EVE Time and keep your eyes peeled for a Dev Blog that will drop in the coming days. I'm making threads for this subset of the planned changes today because these are the ones that are already running in today's SISI update. There are a number of balance issues that are being looked at surrounding Sentry Drones and the ships that use them, and more info on that will be revealed later. However one smaller tweak that I can announce now is that we are shifting some of the base optimal range on Bouncer sentry drones over to falloff. The change removes 5km of base optimal for T1 Bouncers (6km for T2 and Navy) and adds the same value to falloff. These are not the only balance changes coming in Scylla. All the details on those changes will be released in an upcoming dev blog. So now instead of ishtars killing just whit sentry drones now that ship will start to kill whith every drone nice :)
Mehrune Khan Viziam Amarr Empire 28	Posted - 2015.03.11 17:01:57 - [65] - Quote I liked the idea of making heavy drones 20m3 and 20 bandwidth, and then maybe nerfing the Ishtar and Vexor Navy Issue to 100 bandwidth each. It lets them both field 5 heavies but limits them to 4 sentries, which would make the Dominix the premier sentry drone ship. It also lets the Myrmidon field 5 heavy drones, which is an awesome buff for Myrmidon pilots. I don't think the drone bonuses to the Ishtar or VNI should be changed, nor should they receive any other nerf. I admit I am biased on this - I don't fly an Ishtar but I do have Gallente Battlecruiser 5 queued up as I was planning on blinging out a Myrm soon anyway. Don't touch the Myrm! Not that I'm saying I'm behind this - but if we were forced to take a nerf to the Ishtar that would be the way to do it. Nerf Ishtar and buff another drone ship in the process. Because drones are awesome.
Nasar Vyron S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS. 14	Posted - 2015.03.17 05:35:32 - [66] - Quote I like that this nerf finally starts to hit the source of the problem with sentries, however it will fail to accomplish anything just like the previous patches hitting Ishtars. Which btw, I don't really get why they kept targeting the Ishtar when it's damage was never really the issue. More the problem was with sentry damage application, which happens to be it's primary damage source. Combine that with it's low sig, fast, tanky hull happens to make the Ishtar the primary choice for most engagements. Let me lay a few things out here for anyone somehow not familiar with them yet. Currently with the use of a single Drone Link Aug. you can extent the range of your drone's lock range to over 100km. Bouncers can hit that entire range unmodified outside of skills. All that without sacrificing tank or prop mods which allows for it to kite enemy fleets around the drone ball within their drone's optimal. If the enemy fleet sits on the ball just drop the next set of sentries and swing back around, possibly re-scooping your previous drones. Now where does the problem? Sentries have amazing damage application over a large range, but so do all sniping platforms which sentries closely resemble. Why then do we not see more sniper Rohks? Megas? Nados? Nagas? Because they are immobile, and closing the gap causes them to lose nearly all ability to apply their damage. So why do Ishtars have so much luck when their primary damage effectively comes from sniping drones? That's the thing, FCs who sit their fleets on the Ishtar's drones typically take no damage until the Ishtar fleet redeploys another set of sentries. Forcing them to (stupidly) re-approach the new drone ball forcing them through their optimal damage range or flying away and warping on top of the new ball. Now you have 2 solutions to this that are really fairly simple and I'm curious why CCP hasn't taken the time to do so or overlooked it. 1) Reduce Ishtar drone bay such that it can only hold a single full flight of sentries, possibly down to 150 (1 set of lights and sentries). This removes their ability to kite and drop new drones if their original ball can no longer track. Forcing them to either abandon the fight or stay near their drones and scoop and move when the enemy moves in to brawl (Sentry Ishtars suck at brawling). 2) Remove drone control range and drone link aug. from effecting sentries. Attach specific lock ranges to each sentry past their initial optimal+falloff to allow for better use of omnidirectional mods. Sentries all now have a set ~20km control range, that if the controlling ship moves past they lose connection to their drones forcing the controlling ship to move back into range and reconnect to resume control or drop a new set of sentries. If you can't tell I'm a fan of the second option. I see sentries as the sniping platform drone, as such they should be subject to the same disadvantages as any sniping platform ship - low tracking and low mobility. The Ishtar as well as any drone platform can currently circumvent this by kiting away from their drones and tricking their opponents to fly within their drone's optimal at low transversal. This change would force the Ishtars/Vexor/Domi/SlowCat/etc fleets to make a decision: -Long range, low mobility/low orbit with sentries or be forced to constantly drop new flights of sentries as they get out of range. -Mobility via the use mobile drones (lights/mediums/heavies) which while their damage application is abysmal by comparison due to flight time, does not lock their ships to a single location. The first option just seems poor to me and would likely destroy all use of them for fleet combat outside of a hit and run pos bash, but is an option none-the-less. TL;DR - Give sentries a short control range forcing ships that make use of them to treat them like actual sniping platforms forcing lower mobility. Giving way to more use of mobile drones with mobility is desired.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1107	Posted - 2015.03.18 18:23:15 - [67] - Quote Optimal range of Bouncer sentry drones have been reduced by 14.3%. The same range has then been added to their falloff., from the patch notes, is this a typo or not as we haven't heard a thing in this thread for a long time? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic, nerf sentries. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Arsine Mayhem Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 385	Posted - 2015.03.19 02:48:40 - [68] - Quote Swanky nutjob wrote: Tracking is the problem, not optimal. Rise and Fozzie, killing off 0.0 by one poorly thought out balance change, one after another. Because not everyone has access to the same gear.
Kara Traice Viziam Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2015.03.22 03:09:22 - [69] - Quote Another nerf to sentries doesn't surprise me... from all the changes going on over the past year or more.. I think CCP has come down with Nerf Syndrome http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nerf+Syndrome They nerf one thing that is used commonly people migrate to the next best thing which then becomes perceived as OP and will be nerfed, on and on.
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 870	Posted - 2015.03.23 16:46:28 - [70] - Quote Sentry drones create crap gameplay. Sit still, ctrl-click, ctrl-F, repeat or... sit still, assign to someone else... read a book. Get rid of sentry drones altogether. Give the Dominix and Ishtar back their blaster bonuses. Let us fly again! Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Freelancer117 So you want to be a Hero 284	Posted - 2015.03.25 22:58:54 - [71] - Quote Will tech 2 drones get t2 resistances, with ehp balanced ? PS: please add a tech 2 salvage drone The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans. http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Sisyphus Amouh Ministry of War Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.03.29 16:56:45 - [72] - Quote Kara Traice wrote: Another nerf to sentries doesn't surprise me... from all the changes going on over the past year or more.. I think CCP has come down with Nerf Syndrome http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nerf+Syndrome They nerf one thing that is used commonly people migrate to the next best thing which then becomes perceived as OP and will be nerfed, on and on. Agreed, its a feature of the system. Gives the game momentum in development. They'd really have to be clueless not experiment with loadouts before introducing ships and features of ships.


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