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Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
229
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:31:34 -
[61] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:I love watch lists as much as the next guy, but sometimes it feels overpowered as an intelligence source. Especially in w space where the lack of local adds to the mystery and shroud, but watch lists kind of undermine that. Any thoughts? How do you feel about local. If there we ever overpowered free intel... local chat would be it. Since you're a CSM and since you brought it up could you do us a favor and give your views as to the differences as you see them between the watchlist and local. Local - intant free intel you only have to be logged in for. Used costantly to avoid conflict. Allows risk free game play in all but WH. Watchlist - instant, but at least you have to do some up front work and add the dude for it to work (so not exactly 100% free). It's primarily used as an aid in creating conflict - not in avoiding it.
Not Chance, but I can see one major distinction
Local - only works in local
Watchlist - works anywhere in New Eden
Not saying Local is good, but it isn't of quite the same caliber, IMO, as the watchlist when it comes to scope
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Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2711
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 16:32:44 -
[62] - Quote
100% accuracy . . . oh to be able to alter that number
Have something that put a little random in it. False logins or delayed relay of information or both. Let them chase ghosts fora while. The closer you are to someone elses sov the more accurate they watchlist is, on your own turf? All of it becomes questionable.
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3226
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:18:27 -
[63] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just going to jump in quickly to stop any fears about this. Our general rule with the API is that you cannot get anything in it you cannot get in game.
thats the theory, but something like the siphon problem might manifest again. Where API made a module nearly useless.
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
37
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Posted - 2015.04.01 17:23:10 -
[64] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:blah blah blah blah eve is hard blah. Well, the Intel of local is mutual. Everyone in local can see everyone else in local. I can by counter watch list everyone in a corp that's my target, and use that info unbeknownst to them to figure out when to run locator agents. Or for instance a corp I am camping can watch list me and know when not to run sites, or when to. Kind of detracts from the mystery of it for me.
The same way the corp you are camping watchlists you, the same way you watchlist them and know when they are running sites, or how many numbers do they have on, or if they are waiting for your bomber in a cloaky something.
It's amazing I know! Every day you learn something new!
~lvl 60 paladin~
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Eanok
POS Party
Low-Class
11
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Posted - 2015.04.01 20:56:25 -
[65] - Quote
Absolutely nothing wrong with the watch list. It's a necessary part of warfare and tactics. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1918
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Posted - 2015.04.01 21:01:42 -
[66] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:100% accuracy . . . oh to be able to alter that number
Have something that put a little random in it. False logins or delayed relay of information or both. Let them chase ghosts fora while. The closer you are to someone elses sov the more accurate they watchlist is, on your own turf? All of it becomes questionable.
m
Yes, a little bit of random would be good. Opt out would be even better. I don't like people knowing when I am logged on all the time. I sometimes feel obliged to do things that I'm not in the mood for. Sometimes it would be good just to log in quietly.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
6
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Posted - 2015.04.01 21:34:42 -
[67] - Quote
Evan Roc wrote: SNIP .... They show both the hunted and hunter when the other in online, that's it. Many other factors involved before you consider them free intel
This is not how they work: - I can put you on a watch list that will inform me when you are online and I can choose do this secretly.
This behavior is unbalanced, ISK free and risk free.
It needs to be removed with the exception of mutual approval - and - it should become a function of the locator agents with appropriate charges and a percentage of failure.
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Eanok
POS Party
Low-Class
12
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Posted - 2015.04.01 22:26:05 -
[68] - Quote
No watch list means filthy spineless cowards can run and hide with damn near impunity.
Making changes just for the sake of making changes is just stupid. How about some polls on how POS changes are going to effect the wormhole community. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1919
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 22:34:27 -
[69] - Quote
Eanok wrote:No watch list means filthy spineless cowards can run and hide with damn near impunity. Making changes just for the sake of making changes is just stupid.
It works both ways. It is also a strong defensive tool. It is OP in both directions. Honestly, the amount of noise the wormhole community makes about local is incredible but just mention nerfing the watchlist and suddenly things are different.
Eanok wrote:How about some polls on how POS changes are going to effect the wormhole community.
How about you go post in the relevant threads?
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
78
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Posted - 2015.04.01 22:49:02 -
[70] - Quote
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:The same way the corp you are camping watchlists you, the same way you watchlist them and know when they are running sites, or how many numbers do they have on, or if they are waiting for your bomber in a cloaky something.
It's amazing I know! Every day you learn something new!
And in the end a PVP game turns into risk management exercise. That is precisely what's wrong with intel like local or watchlists. Because it has no counter (except perhaps afk cloaking), it is 100% correct and it's given for free, players are encouraged to put excessive effort into risk avoidance. You then end up with ship spinning and afk cloaking threads.
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BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
137
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Posted - 2015.04.01 22:58:16 -
[71] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Just going to jump in quickly to stop any fears about this. Our general rule with the API is that you cannot get anything in it you cannot get in game. The game does not tell you when someone adds you as a contact/watchlist unless the person checks that little box to do it. The API is not going to either, at least not in any directly useful way.
When we did the yearly stats we thought it would be OK to add the number of times you have been added as a contact there because it's yearly aggregate information. There is no way to know in the last hour someone did it, all it tells you is X people did it in the year 2014.
Unless the game changes to tell you this stuff in the client the API wont either.
Hope that answers your questions/concerns about that. :)
Awesome to know, thanks Socks Four :) |
Eanok
POS Party
Low-Class
12
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 00:28:42 -
[72] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Eanok wrote:No watch list means filthy spineless cowards can run and hide with damn near impunity. Making changes just for the sake of making changes is just stupid. It works both ways. It is also a strong defensive tool. It is OP in both directions. Honestly, the amount of noise the wormhole community makes about local is incredible but just mention nerfing the watchlist and suddenly things are different. Eanok wrote:How about some polls on how POS changes are going to effect the wormhole community. How about you go post in the relevant threads?
I'm fine with no local.
How about you go polish Chance Ravine's shoes. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1922
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 00:33:00 -
[73] - Quote
Eanok wrote:Zappity wrote:Eanok wrote:No watch list means filthy spineless cowards can run and hide with damn near impunity. Making changes just for the sake of making changes is just stupid. It works both ways. It is also a strong defensive tool. It is OP in both directions. Honestly, the amount of noise the wormhole community makes about local is incredible but just mention nerfing the watchlist and suddenly things are different. Eanok wrote:How about some polls on how POS changes are going to effect the wormhole community. How about you go post in the relevant threads? I'm fine with no local. How about you go polish Chance Ravine's shoes.
That's exactly my point. No local is good because it adds risk and challenge and makes the game better because free intel is bad and cheapens tactics and all the rest. Unless you're talking about watchlists, apparently, where all that stuff is just fine.
FFS you can even record people's log on/off patterns with the notification feed just by setting the history and leaving your character logged in. Ridiculous.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Candi LeMew
Isogen 5
26299
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 04:59:05 -
[74] - Quote
Zappity wrote:That's exactly my point. No local is good because it adds risk and challenge and makes the game better because free intel is bad and cheapens tactics and all the rest. Unless you're talking about watchlists, apparently, where all that stuff is just fine.
You can even record people's log on/off patterns with the notification feed just by setting the history to on and leaving your character logged in. Ridiculous.
Yep, no local is good. That's partly why many wormholers enjoy living in w-space.
In your other post you mentioned wormhole community makes noise about no local? Wat.gif?
Why would we? We're happy. Don't care about what goes on in k-space for the most part.
The fact with watchlists is the majority of people don't have a problem and this honestly wouldn't even be a thing had Chance not made a thread about it. Nobody cared, other than a few scattered people, many of whom aren't even wormholers. Point in case is this thread that's predominantly full of people saying watchlists are fine. It's not wormholers making any noise really, other than to say "Away with this crap.".
=ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ...
Jack Miton > everyone knows im the best dusette
"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
GÖ¬ -ér-à-ò-é -ôew, -ôear none, -òave yo-àr love -ôor only one.
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Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery
Prolapse.
396
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Posted - 2015.04.02 05:16:11 -
[75] - Quote
confirming 'Away with this crap' is my default response on the topic.
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1924
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 05:37:38 -
[76] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Yep, no local is good. That's partly why many wormholers enjoy living in w-space.
In your other post you mentioned wormhole community makes noise about no local? Wat.gif?
Why would we? We're happy. Don't care about what goes on in k-space for the most part.
I obviously wasn't clear enough, sorry. I know that you like no local. It seems strange to me that you are so keen on preserving other perfect intel. The wormhole community always teases null about local because it makes things easy.
Candi LeMew wrote:The fact with watchlists is the majority of people don't have a problem and this honestly wouldn't even be a thing had Chance not made a thread about it. Nobody cared, other than a few scattered people, many of whom aren't even wormholers. Point in case is this thread that's predominantly full of people saying watchlists are fine. It's not wormholers making any noise really, other than to say "Away with this crap.".
There have been threads about this before. Watchlist doesn't care if you are in a wormhole or k-space so it is not only a wormhole issue.
Oh, and more people in this thread are advocating for some sort of change than those who want the status quo. You can count them if you want.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Candi LeMew
Isogen 5
26300
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 06:00:03 -
[77] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I obviously wasn't clear enough, sorry. I know that you like no local. It seems strange to me that you are so keen on preserving other perfect intel.
People keep using the word "intel" and it just doesn't feel right.
I like having no local. Not for any intel related reason directly, but simply because of the atmosphere it gives to w-space. Cloak and dagger. In terms of watchlists it's just a tool and feature that I don't feel degrades from this atmosphere at all. Quite simply, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Zappity wrote:The wormhole community always teases null about local because it makes things easy.
They/we do? 
I thought it had more to do with gates, stations and F1 megablobs and the people who like that stuff.
Zappity wrote:There have been threads about this before. Watchlist doesn't care if you are in a wormhole or k-space so it is not only a wormhole issue.
Oh, and more people in this thread are advocating for some sort of change than those who want the status quo. You can count them if you want.
Sure. Look around features and ideas and you'll find threads on pretty much anything and everything, great ideas to terrible ones. But because threads have been made previously doesn't really mean much (worth noting it's not really been a discussion topic in this section before ... which tells you something). I mean heck, I've made suggestions for fashion related improvements, but that doesn't mean because I made a thread it's an actual thing (as much as I wish it would be). 
To me, keeping the appearance of physically simulated hair in final, rendered portraits is a much more pressing issue than watchlists. (corbexx  )
This is wormholes, where people are stylish and complain about POS mechanics, Jack Miton and arranged fights. Not watchlists and local.
As for this thread I have no need to tally up those for/against/abstain. I've lived in wormholes for almost five years and I've never heard anyone raise watchlists as a serious or vital issue. Never. I get that same vibe as I read this thread.
=ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ...
Jack Miton > everyone knows im the best dusette
"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
GÖ¬ -ér-à-ò-é -ôew, -ôear none, -òave yo-àr love -ôor only one.
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Krops Vont
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
52
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Posted - 2015.04.02 09:19:10 -
[78] - Quote
You can go about this multiple ways.
- Remove it from w-space usability. Every time you are in a wormhole, it doesn't work.
- Delay it, make it take time for online to show.
- FozzieFatigueGäó it. The more contacts you add, the less it works or something like that.
- Contacts only work on grid.
- Contacts only work if both parties have each other added.
- You require to place a structure where contacts work system wide. (This probably is skewed for those with TS or Solo)
- Remove watchlist from the game. Game changing, but think about it.
As with any human, we must map out everything for the sake of living. So what happens when you put the same aspect in a game with random events? They go nuts trying to figure out how to predict and map out everything.
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Pissfat
Reverse Production
64
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Posted - 2015.04.02 09:30:27 -
[79] - Quote
So much sooking in this thread about such a small thing really.
Leave it be.
I am Winthorp, you may remember me from such films as....
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March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1580
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 10:13:11 -
[80] - Quote
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:...
The same way the corp you are camping watchlists you, the same way you watchlist them and know when they are running sites, or how many numbers do they have on, or if they are waiting for your bomber in a cloaky something....
do you have access to personal data of all the people who has access to yours in RL (talking about government, your company, etc...)?
Or maybe you have access to financial data of your bank like they have access to your?
Hint: watchlist gives you ability to watch for someone but it's not that you always know who you can watch.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
231
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 12:53:02 -
[81] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Zappity wrote:That's exactly my point. No local is good because it adds risk and challenge and makes the game better because free intel is bad and cheapens tactics and all the rest. Unless you're talking about watchlists, apparently, where all that stuff is just fine.
You can even record people's log on/off patterns with the notification feed just by setting the history to on and leaving your character logged in. Ridiculous. Yep, no local is good. That's partly why many wormholers enjoy living in w-space. In your other post you mentioned wormhole community makes noise about no local? Wat.gif? Why would we? We're happy. Don't care about what goes on in k-space for the most part. The fact with watchlists is the majority of people don't have a problem and this honestly wouldn't even be a thing had Chance not made a thread about it. Nobody cared, other than a few scattered people, many of whom aren't even wormholers. Point in case is this thread that's predominantly full of people saying watchlists are fine. It's not wormholers making any noise really, other than to say "Away with this crap.".
People here also cried the sky is falling when the wormhole mass jump changes were discussed because they didn't want their MO to change. The list of negative effects of non-consensual watchlist is extensive
- Observing player log on/log off behavior without being present (sound familiar to NPC kill API? Positive this is still being used to do logoff-ski's by knowing when the target logs in)
- Correlating character behavior (matching mains to alts) through no active action other than log off/log on patterns (very important to gauge the number of *real* pilots in a corporation)
- Altering to war target activity without being in system (in local)
- Monitoring super/titan pilots for activity from anywhere in New Eden (see all the PL *multi-year* drops on pilots after watching for them)
- Market PvP when a player logs off
- Watchlisting an entire corporation to know their online numbers without scouting
- Tracking people camping/nomading in your wormhole (done this myself)
Name me one benefit to the watchlist the is not available through consensual watchlisting (ie: social connections) that falls into the arena of valid *active* information gathering. It seems to me that the people here that have no problem with watchlisting simply want the above benefits without having to do any scouting/active observing of their targets other than finding their corp name and watchlisting everyone on evewho.
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Candi LeMew
Isogen 5
26312
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 13:15:53 -
[82] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Name me one benefit to the watchlist the is not available through consensual watchlisting (ie: social connections) that falls into the arena of valid *active* information gathering. It seems to me that the people here that have no problem with watchlisting simply want the above benefits without having to do any scouting/active observing of their targets other than finding their corp name and watchlisting everyone on evewho.
Well you see the thing is, I don't have to name anything or prove anything.
You are the one who wants to change what is already a part of the game I'm fine with, so that falls on your shoulders and by your logic we should nerf forums, character sheets, employment history, corp and pretty much everything unless you're on grid with a pilot. How far do we take this "free intel" silliness?
It functions fine for both social and tactical use and it's balanced. The intel gained by it is negligible because it can work both ways. It's just one of the aspects of the world here that we live with. At the end of the day it's still a game that needs to provide some conveniences for it's players.
Essentially all of this from page 1 lol:
Seraph Essael wrote:Watchlists are fine. Its funny people complain about them even though they don't know they are watchlisted unless you check them to notify.
So, I am sat at a POS, watching this Domi, hoping he runs sites. I turn away for two secs to sort out the cat. Turn round and he's gone. If he logs off it tells me and I can go do other stuff instead. If it doesn't I'm left with my thumb up my arse wondering if he's online...
The watchlist doesn't tell you where said person is, what ship they're in, what fleet they're in or what friends they have. There is nothing wrong with the watchlist system and it should be left that way. Who gives a **** if you're being watchlisted, I'm probably on multiple watchlists, the horror, they know when I log in!!!
It works both ways: I'm hunting them, they see me come in due to a scout who drags my name into a channel the people in the wormhole all watchlist me... Does it impede the way I play... Nope... Should it? Nope...
Tl;dr: See first sentence.
*shrugs* There's really nothing more to say.
=ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ...
Jack Miton > everyone knows im the best dusette
"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
GÖ¬ -ér-à-ò-é -ôew, -ôear none, -òave yo-àr love -ôor only one.
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Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
232
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 15:38:31 -
[83] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Obil Que wrote:Name me one benefit to the watchlist the is not available through consensual watchlisting (ie: social connections) that falls into the arena of valid *active* information gathering. It seems to me that the people here that have no problem with watchlisting simply want the above benefits without having to do any scouting/active observing of their targets other than finding their corp name and watchlisting everyone on evewho.
Well you see the thing is, I don't have to name anything or prove anything. You are the one who wants to change what is already a part of the game I'm fine with, so that falls on your shoulders and by your logic we should nerf forums, character sheets, employment history, corp and pretty much everything unless you're on grid with a pilot. How far do we take this "free intel" silliness? It functions fine for both social and tactical use and it's balanced. The intel gained by it is negligible because it can work both ways. It's just one of the aspects of the world here that we live with. At the end of the day it's still a game that needs to provide some conveniences for it's players.
The intel gained is not somehow diminished because you have the same tool at your disposal. There is no balance in the tactical use. The notion that it works both ways tactically is flawed. Yes, it is a tool that can be used by both parties, but it is not a mechanic that you know is being used on you therefore you have no indication to respond. It does not alert you that you are being watchlisted. I could be on hundreds of watchlists and have no idea that it is the case so how do I tactically have the ability to respond to those gathering intel on me specifically?
Yes, locator agents operate in a similar way but it is at least tempered with a cost to the user and requirement for standings and location and not freely given through no effort.
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MooMooDachshundCow
Incertae Sedis
206
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 16:08:29 -
[84] - Quote
I don't think that watchlist abuse really creates so much intel as to be a major swing factor either way. That said, I think it would be really interesting if watch list behaviors mimicked ratting API's/local in this way:
1. If you login to a system with local, you show on watchlists.
2. If you login to a wormhole system (or Thera) with no local, then watchlist doesn't automatically pop up.
3. This would be exempted for people that are on your personal watchlist as friendly, who would still always see you. Perhaps also members of your corp/alliance, or at least the director-level members.
4. Once you jump into k-space you show up on watchlists of anyone maybe?
5. Perhaps going back to a WH would take you back off?
This would be a good fix for the current meta. No reason that WH space should give anyone free intel. Also worth noting if nobody has yet that this would somewhat benefit smaller corps as they are the easiest to watchlist the whole group, and have fewer alts.
Yeah, well, it's just like my-áopinion, man.
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1242
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 16:20:08 -
[85] - Quote
MooMooDachshundCow wrote:I don't think that watchlist abuse really creates so much intel as to be a major swing factor either way. That said, I think it would be really interesting if watch list behaviors mimicked ratting API's/local in this way:
1. If you login to a system with local, you show on watchlists.
2. If you login to a wormhole system (or Thera) with no local, then watchlist doesn't automatically pop up.
3. This would be exempted for people that are on your personal watchlist as friendly, who would still always see you. Perhaps also members of your corp/alliance, or at least the director-level members.
4. Once you jump into k-space you show up on watchlists of anyone maybe?
5. Perhaps going back to a WH would take you back off?
This would be a good fix for the current meta. No reason that WH space should give anyone free intel. Also worth noting if nobody has yet that this would somewhat benefit smaller corps as they are the easiest to watchlist the whole group, and have fewer alts.
Nobody is arguing that it isn't great Intel or crap Intel, the argument seems to revolve around it being both uncontrollable intel, and free Intel.
Opt out system? Everybody would do it by default (mostly everybody). If so, then there should be a way to do that type of monitoring even if they opt out of it, but it should cost you.
Abilities stay, it's just not free unless it's consensual between friends, ally's, corps, etc. it doesn't have to cost billions, but a person shouldn't have the ability to watchlist half of new Eden with impunity, for free.
I do find it a bit wierd that this hasn't been iterated on.
Nobody disagrees with keeping watch lists, but it is essentially free Intel.
Yaay!!!!
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Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
37
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 16:21:19 -
[86] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:...
The same way the corp you are camping watchlists you, the same way you watchlist them and know when they are running sites, or how many numbers do they have on, or if they are waiting for your bomber in a cloaky something....
do you have access to personal data of all the people who has access to yours in RL (talking about government, your company, etc...)? Or maybe you have access to financial data of your bank like they have access to your? Hint: watchlist gives you ability to watch for someone but it's not that you always know who you can watch.
Just the fact that you compared a spaceship game to rl tells me a lot of intel about you.
~lvl 60 paladin~
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unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc.
Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
158
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 20:14:00 -
[87] - Quote
So first lets remove local from null sec.
About watchlists, make it concentual , problem of to much intell solved.
If both needs to agree then you can still keep the social part of the system.
The rest of the intel you should be able to get with eyeball on the pos and or new structures.
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Krops Vont
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
55
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Posted - 2015.04.02 20:32:05 -
[88] - Quote
Watchlist only does half the play. Tells you if they are on or off, not if they are in the same wormhole as you. ;)
As with any human, we must map out everything for the sake of living. So what happens when you put the same aspect in a game with random events? They go nuts trying to figure out how to predict and map out everything.
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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
164
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 22:42:57 -
[89] - Quote
I started this thread on a lark yet it seems like a very divisive issue. I think it would be possible to preserve both the social nature of watch lists and the spookiness of j space.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Prolapse.
2223
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 23:00:59 -
[90] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:I love watch lists as much as the next guy, but sometimes it feels overpowered as an intelligence source. Especially in w space where the lack of local adds to the mystery and shroud, but watch lists kind of undermine that. Any thoughts?
OK, here's my take on this.
When your clowns came into my hole, and set up EVE's Second Least Impressive Wormhole Camp (you outdid yourselves this week, btw) I parked an alt on the wormhole entrance and added every idiot who jumped through.
I went to zkillboard and researched each idiot to determine which other clown-arse moron he flew with. Soon i had scried out who was in my hole, which one had a bomber and who had a Falcon, who had a 800M Wingspan "doctrine" Stratios spendo-punching bag.
I had a good idea who was in my hole, and since they were on watchlists, and i had researched their behaviour on zkillboard, I came to a conclusion.
#1 - You are all US TZ and you were "hell camping" an AU TZ corp
#2 - As long as we didn't idle n the wormhole with MWD's running in a T1 frigate, we would be fine, because bomber camps against 150K EHP cloaky proteuses are, well, pretty damn pointless
#3 - I could tell who was online, what they were flying, and address the risk and alleged threat your clowns posed at any one time.
The watchlist was not the be-all and end-all of my intelligence gathering. Researching zkillboard and using half of one fifth of my brain was the majority of it.
I realised immediately, you and yours had no real teeth. You hadn't sieged anyone out. Haulers and mining barges would kill your bombers more often than not. You needed 12 guys to do anything. We could, and did, go about our business without interference. Finally, you were engaged in a collossal waste of time because your idiots never once brought a decent interdiction option to the field.
So is a watchlist bad? No.
it's a tool. A small and ineffectual tool. Which is why a small and ineffectual tool is trying to get it removed I suppose.
Sure, it's prone to abuse. Blood Union would invest billions of ISK in dreads, dread alts, etc, and seed hem into C5's inhabited by bears and pull logon traps partly informed by watchlists. But, and I'll educate you about what really happened because you weren't even playing the game when it happened, BU quit wormholes mostly when CCP removed API kill logging support and jump logging from wormhole systems, thereby invalidating BU's intel tool known as Siggy.
BU didn't even need to WL their victims to pull logon traps. a WL pinging with sign-ons is handy but it wouldn't have stopped them without the removal of NPC kill logging and jump logging which just showed a nice red or yellow flag on the holes in Siggy.
Would i want WL's removed? no. You know why? i have friends. Without a WL, the only way I now my friends, enemies and frienemies are online is to be in the same channel as them (local or otherwise).
Sure, some people may hate the fact I WL their whole active member base, but the key is that you and yours didn't get kills because a Wl informed me you were online. You didnt get kills because you were bad. Then you turned tail and ran abecause your corp is pathetic and weak when it comes to a pitched battle. if you hate the fact that camping a hole for weeks with bombers merely sees you get added to Wl and your sign on is greeted by derision in Local, well tough.
Prolapse. Taking fights since 2014.
Sudden Buggery. Got duumb? Hola, Batmanuel!
http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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