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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:03:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: Kaylana Syi
I would like to repeat for you "Torpedo t2 Raven is almost crap." use it only in small gangs having excellent commander. With latest changes torpedo t2 Raven does not exist at all as warship.
You have to be absolutely insane to believe your own words.
It is just because your pitiful alliance doesn't know what is real fleet battle.
When you will get some lessons from the Real Alliances you will also understand why torp raven is bull****, cruise raven is even bigger bull****. But without javelin torp t2 raven is completely useless, cruise t2 raven will do it job much better in every aspect.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:05:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 25/10/2006 10:06:04
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Most smart Raven pilots carry a mix of damage types seen as they loose no DPS for using Explosive over for example EM.
Yea
- But 10 sec for reload.
- difficult to guess how BS is tanked.
FYI, in real duel encounter blaster Mega > torp Raven.
As anyone who has fought torp ravens regularly in a Blasterthron will tell you, THAT IS NOT TRUE.
A well setup Raven can tank the DPS of a blasterthron long enough to break the blasterthrons own tank. Its actually nearly always a close-run thing.
If you have been losing Ravens to Blasterthrons regularly you need to go to fitting school.
In my own 1v1's with Torp Ravens, if they are well setup and using explosive torps on my EANM II/DC based tank, I nearly always lose if the fight starts at over 15km. Which nearly ALL solo fights do unless you have a covert ops alt.
Plus when you MWD over to them, you will ALWAYS overshoot slightly and you are getting zero DPS with your blasters while he is hitting you for MAX DAMAGE from the very start. Honestly, get a clue.
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Master OlavPancrazio
Einherjar Rising
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:10:00 -
[123]
In the above fight though, if you were really engaged by that raven at 15km. You could mwd away from it and warp away. So the raven can tank/gank the mega. The mega gets to choose if it fights or not.
The inherant disadvantage of caldari is if you setup to pwn other things solo, you have almost no way to hold them down in reality.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:12:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio
In the above fight though, if you were really engaged by that raven at 15km. You could mwd away from it and warp away. So the raven can tank/gank the mega. The mega gets to choose if it fights or not.
The inherant disadvantage of caldari is if you setup to pwn other things solo, you have almost no way to hold them down in reality.
Yeah, the Raven isnt a great solo PvP ship. Thats true.
But its the KING of solo PvE, which the mega absolutely sucks at.
Its called balance. No ship should be the King of All Things in EVE.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:19:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio
In the above fight though, if you were really engaged by that raven at 15km. You could mwd away from it and warp away. So the raven can tank/gank the mega. The mega gets to choose if it fights or not.
The inherant disadvantage of caldari is if you setup to pwn other things solo, you have almost no way to hold them down in reality.
Yeah, the Raven isnt a great solo PvP ship. Thats true.
Wow, you have to agree? I do not believe.
Also Raven is bull**** in fleet battles.
Quote:
But its the KING of solo PvE, which the mega absolutely sucks at.
Who cares about PvE? Mission runners in empire? And I know few other kings of PvE, including Dominix, command ships, HACs, etc.
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Master OlavPancrazio
Einherjar Rising
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:20:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 25/10/2006 10:21:27
Zixxa your last 4 posts are completely useless crap.
Stop posting.
He was talking about PvP in the non fleet battle sense. Not all of eve is huge 100+ man laggy node crashing battles. There's actually another part of eve that we enjoy, the smaller gang versus gang type of combat.
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Kenneys
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:21:00 -
[127]
I just recently finished training for T2 torpedos.
From looking at the stats of javelin missiles alone, i thought it would be a superb weapon, hence i spent a whole month training for it. (I'm only a 3 month old noob)
And then i tried to fit those things.. Hmm.. ate up all my powergrids..and i have rank 4 for all the +CPUS/PGS. Ok, add in +CPU and + Powergrid modules. Time to fit some shields so i can tank... *fit fit* Hmm i'm out of cpu and powergrid again.. Time to put on more +cpu and +grid modules. Hmm.. ok no space to fit anything else on lowerslots.
So i went out, and tested it. WOW! It did great damage on battlecruisers! I popped em fast! Dang!!!
For cruisers... nope. Cruise missiles did more dps (due to free low slots).
For frigates... Cruisers and T2 torps did about the same.. (which is almost negligible.. drones and smartbombs are the only efficient way to kill em)
For battleships.. T2 torps does the same damage as normal torps. Cruise missiles come pretty close due to the +dmg/rof modules.
After a week of trying it out... it dawned on me that i completely wasted one month of training time, and 80+ mil isk..
T1 cruise missiles are so much better to use: Much lower CPU/PG usage allows you to mount +dmg/+rof on the lowslots; More CPU/PG lets you make a better tank; Cruise missiles hit just as far as T2 torps.
Basically all T2 torps have over cruise missiles is kill battlecruisers faster. And for that, you have all sorts of drawbacks.
All in all, like many other caldaris out there, i find that torpedos look great on paper.. but in practise, cruise missiles are much better. I just wish that i didn't spent a whole month training them up.
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Master OlavPancrazio
Einherjar Rising
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:23:00 -
[128]
You forget that they kill BS faster. It's kind of a big difference.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:23:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio
In the above fight though, if you were really engaged by that raven at 15km. You could mwd away from it and warp away. So the raven can tank/gank the mega. The mega gets to choose if it fights or not.
The inherant disadvantage of caldari is if you setup to pwn other things solo, you have almost no way to hold them down in reality.
Yeah, the Raven isnt a great solo PvP ship. Thats true.
Wow, you have to agree? I do not believe.
Also Raven is bull**** in fleet battles.
Quote:
But its the KING of solo PvE, which the mega absolutely sucks at.
Who cares about PvE? Mission runners in empire? And I know few other kings of PvE, including Dominix, command ships, HACs, etc.
Well 100% of the playerbase PvE's at some point. And the Raven is the perfect ship for it, hell even I trained 3 weeks to use a Raven for PvE and it does better than my Mega which I have been training for over a year.
The Raven is amazing ship in small gangs. It will always have a place in PvP. But Javelins were ridiculous and needed a change.
Bascially, stop talking, because you are embaressing yourself.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:29:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
... but is it fair that they should have very high damage and very high range because of it?
That is not the problem of missiles but the Raven. Raven has bonuses in ROF and missile velocity. If Raven has bonuses in ROF and damage, torps would be low range weapons and cruises high range weapons. If so, cruises need more buff in velocity to longer distance with flight time. You can introduce new mods to increase more missile speed for extended range for cruise missiles and torps.
Other races have no problem in missiles because they do not have velocity bonus.
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Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind.
Pax Caldaria. |
Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:30:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio
You forget that they kill BS faster. It's kind of a big difference.
In SMALL gang encounters.
In AVERAGE/BIG gang encounters Raven is crap.
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Master OlavPancrazio
Einherjar Rising
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:30:00 -
[132]
Well, if CCP wanted to give the raven a damage bonus instead of missle velocity, I definately wouldn't be mad. 
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Master OlavPancrazio
Einherjar Rising
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:32:00 -
[133]
Didn't I tell you to stop posting in 10 different threads already?
Yes, yes, you said the same thing again. Raven's are crap in large fleet battles. No one cares. That's not a problem with the raven, its a problem with missles in general. Caldari can train for the rokh if they want to be part of the wonderful pvp world of the lagfest we call fleet battles.
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MECTO
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:35:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Yeah, the Raven isnt a great solo PvP ship. Thats true.
But its the KING of solo PvE, which the mega absolutely sucks at.
Its called balance. No ship should be the King of All Things in EVE.
according to your answers in my thread before - raven is insane solo pvp ship with rage torpedoes and immensive tank.. u don't agree?
Originally by: Kusotarre
I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:36:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Well 100% of the playerbase PvE's at some point.
But who cares about PvE after few months? Who? It is easy on any ship.
Quote:
And the Raven is the perfect ship for it, hell even I trained 3 weeks to use a Raven for PvE and it does better than my Mega which I have been training for over a year.
Oh, try to use Dominix. It's at least as good as Raven for PvE.
Quote:
But Javelins were ridiculous and needed a change.
Javelins was not so useful(you don't know why, but just believe). They generate good damage, was dangerous for small ships, etc. But cruise missiles were only slightly worse against battleships and better than javelins against cruiser-size and lesser ships. After nerf javelins are useless everywhere, because cruise t2 outperforms javelins in every aspect of the battle.
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MECTO
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:38:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Zixxa
Oh, try to use Dominix. It's at least as good as Raven for PvE.
not so good.. but don't need ammo 
Originally by: Kusotarre
I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:39:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio
Didn't I tell you to stop posting in 10 different threads already?
I am ingoring you.
Quote:
Yes, yes, you said the same thing again. Raven's are crap in large fleet battles. No one cares. That's not a problem with the raven, its a problem with missles in general. Caldari can train for the rokh if they want to be part of the wonderful pvp world of the lagfest we call fleet battles.
Yes, you are right. 70-90 days of traing for t2 hybrids and you have chance to be helpful in fleet battle.
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Master OlavPancrazio
Einherjar Rising
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:41:00 -
[138]
Yes, so why are you posting still?
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Zar Dim
Minmatar
Anus Horriblis
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:54:00 -
[139]
Please stay on topic, that's about javelins.
They are nerfed to such extent that right now there is absolutly no incenitive to use T2 Torps, and hence launchers. With upcoming rigs, it's much easier to fit 15% damage bonus rig on cruises and don't use Torps at all.
On the PVP you have to use T1 torps but once again given fix to fury cruises (now they are at least useful), it looks like fury cruises will have higher dps then torps (taking rigs in to the picture)
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Master OlavPancrazio
Einherjar Rising
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.25 10:56:00 -
[140]
I think we can all agree the t2 jav nerf is an overnerf.
At the same time we all can agree that javs are overpowered currently.
I hope tux tries to find the middleground to nerf them to, instead of the current extreme.
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Lord Augustus
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Posted - 2006.10.25 11:05:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio
Yeah, the Raven isnt a great solo PvP ship. Thats true.
But its the KING of solo PvE, which the mega absolutely sucks at.
Its called balance. No ship should be the King of All Things in EVE.
Except the domi
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.25 11:29:00 -
[142]
OK, let's drop the mega vs raven smackety smack. It's offtopic.
Javelins were good before. They had more velocity (thus range), better explosion velocity, better explosion radius.
This made them a good solid PvP weapon - there's a fair few <400m sig BS out there, and every cruiser you'd do a bit more damage than a 'normal' torp.
Ceptors you could give pain to, but only in the situations where turrets would also give them pain. E.g. MWD on, and not moving fast enough. You could just about scratch the paintwork with MWD off.
However, that basically made them in all ways better than t1 torps. I mean, speed loss? Irritating, but no more on a BS. But having a torp that's bigger, better and faster ... well 's a no brainer really, isn't it?
I think this change has gone a bit too far the other way. Now, there's not a lot of situations where you'd use javelin torps over 'normal' torps, or cruise missiles.
Much like rages in fact - yes, they're great if you have a huginn on your wing, but ... well if you've got a huginn pilot, just get 'em in another BS and do even more damage. I suppose they do permit a 'full gank' raven fit, of painters, BCS and rage, but when you have to paint a ship to 700m to break even, and it's still got worse velocity ...
That said, whilst I think this change removes a lot of the reasons to use T2 ammo, I'm also of the opinion that T2 ammo was just too good. When you have 'options' that a T1 fitted ship does not, you end up with (IMO at least) game breaking behaviour.
T2 should be good. This is fine. T2 weapons are better than their top end T1 equivalents - same stats, spec bonus, but trade off is harder fittings. That's all good in my book.
When you have stuff that utterly outclasses T1 though, in a 'use T2 or you lose' sense, then there starts to be a problem. If I have torps 5, and T2 launchers I'm already better than a corpmate with torps 4 and arby launchers.
This situation is even worse with the 'ultra-snipe' ammo, since at least javelin torps had flight time to worry about (and the old problem of start firing at 200km, and they'll be gone before you hit).
I wouldn't be too sad to see T2 ammo gone entirely, or at least severely re-thought as to what it's intended to do. IMO 'new capabilities' is bad. More interesting/versatile is fine.
Personally, I'd go with giving javelin torps exactly the same stats as a cruise missile. No additional damage or anything. And no 'guided missile precision' either. (Although it'd be nice). Then they become worth using - you don't have more power, but what you do have is more versatility - you can 'swap' to cruise missile grade firepower. Of course, your T2 sieges also are harder to fit, and have a worse RoF than a 'normal' cruise launcher, but that's a reasonable tradeoff.
If this were done, then they'd be usable and useful. In fights where you 'needed cruise' you'd fit cruise, because they'd just be better. (And you can still do precision/fury/FoF as you need, which you wouldn't be able to do with siege launchers).
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.25 15:15:00 -
[143]
Good post, James!
Look at torpedos closer. It is just some kind of trash compared to cruise missile.(Of course, few exceptions exist ) But with javeline it may be useful! Of course, no tank, no NOS, little of protection, difficult fitting, PvP only, etc. But useful. If you are nerfing javeline, you are killing torpedo as weapon.
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Kamikaaazi
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Posted - 2006.10.25 15:19:00 -
[144]
this is just retarded. Raven will do more dps with rage assault missiles than it does with torps.
WANT TO SWAP TORP SKILL TO ASSAULT MISSILE SKILL!
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Goca
Minmatar
Steel Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 15:59:00 -
[145]
sooo happy I spent all this time on torpedo skills..
coolness.
so basically I just wasted how many months getting all the relevant skills up so I can actually do a little PVP with a ship I like and lo and behold these idiots nerf it..
yeah, overpowered my ass..
always fun watching snipers sit out 200km from a gate, you shoot at them and wait for your torps to finally reach them just as they warp off, all the while they are dealing instant damage to you..
it would be nice if they give some prior warning when they do ****headed stuff like this, you know "btw jav torps and Ravens will be bloody useless don't train the pieces of ****"..
ahh well the whiners got their way, as usual, hopefully the lag whiners also get their way...
I is Goca |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.25 16:39:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Goca
sooo happy I spent all this time on torpedo skills..
coolness.
so basically I just wasted how many months getting all the relevant skills up so I can actually do a little PVP with a ship I like and lo and behold these idiots nerf it..
yeah, overpowered my ass..
always fun watching snipers sit out 200km from a gate, you shoot at them and wait for your torps to finally reach them just as they warp off, all the while they are dealing instant damage to you..
it would be nice if they give some prior warning when they do ****headed stuff like this, you know "btw jav torps and Ravens will be bloody useless don't train the pieces of ****"..
ahh well the whiners got their way, as usual, hopefully the lag whiners also get their way...
No. You still get:
5% more damage
Torp spec (6% more RoF within a day or two, 8% within a week or so)
T2 sieges (on a par with arbalests + some capacity + the spec skill)
Citadel torps prereq.
Much like you got on Large hybrid 5, before they brought in the T2 ammo. Only without the capital prereqs, because they didn't exist either. People still found it worthy. Oh, and did I mention, that T2 large guns takes around 80 days training, where T2 torps are half that.
Even without T2 ammo, T2 weapons are good options. Long on training time, but very potent.
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Spaced Skunk
Yesodic Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.25 17:04:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Spaced Skunk on 25/10/2006 17:03:53
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/10/2006 17:10:55
I wont mind a range reduction at all, but please leave the damage and exp radius alone. They don't nerf Barrage or Null into oblivion either, why do it to Javs? Either nerf em all or nerf none.
And I only really use missiles in PvE, and there explosion velocity is meaningless.
Javelin torpedos should be fast and long ranged I think, with a choice of;
450 dmg/Same Precision
380 dmg/More Precision
You mention barrage and null (which is essential a kind of precision ammo when compared to missiles), and you know, they dont have the same damage as EMP or Antimatter, they have less, and it should be consistent with the missiles.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.25 17:05:00 -
[148]
Without t2 ammo best choice not t2(even if skills allow), but Arbalest. Easier to fit. Usually either better damage(additional BCS) or better tank. Period.
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Goca
Minmatar
Steel Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 17:31:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Zosimos Sabina
Ravens were awesome before Javelin torps, and they'll be awesome even without uber Javelin torps. The sky is not falling, get over it. 
lol, yeah "uber" torpedoes
gfy
I is Goca |
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