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Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:00:00 - [1] Okay now those things might be slightly overpowered (just like a lot of the T2 ammos), but I really enjoy them in my missions. Now on Sisi Bane and Inferno Javs got: Exp radius: 400m (up from 300) Damage: 380 (down from 450) Speed penalty: Still the same Other stats: don't know, don't matter to me. Now I wonder, if those stats are correct, what exactly is the point in using Bane and Inferno Javs anymore? And why do Mjolnirs and Juggs still have the old stats? Is this another bug? --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:04:00 - [2] Ha-ha-ha! Torpedo t2 Raven is almost crap(no tank, no nos, no mwd, nothing), but with javelin nerfing it will be completely useless. CCP, would you be so kind to exchange useless torp skills for something more useful?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:06:00 - [3] "Slightly?" :) Its about time that those things get in line with the other weapons. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:09:00 - [4] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/10/2006 17:10:55 I wont mind a range reduction at all, but please leave the damage and exp radius alone. They don't nerf Barrage or Null into oblivion either, why do it to Javs? Either nerf em all or nerf none. And I only really use missiles in PvE, and there explosion velocity is meaningless. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:11:00 - [5] Edited by: Eilie on 24/10/2006 17:12:25 Good, torps arn't supposed to be better than cruise missiles. Thats why torps skill is rank4 and cruise is rank5. And yes, torps (like rockets and the new heavy assualt missiles) are supposed to be short range, while standard, heavy, and cruise missiles are the lower dmg but far range weapons!
Arakasai Caldari Blueprint Haus Serenus Letum	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:11:00 - [6] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 17:07:52 "Slightly" overpowered? :) Its about time that those things get in line with the other weapons. I would hope that they get a range reduction too, because they are meant to be SHORT RANGE weapons with that kind of damage. At the risk of turning this into yet another flame back and forth on the pros and cons of missiles I find I just have to ask this. How the heck do you know what they are meant to be? Clearly they are meant to be long range weapons because that is how they were implemented. I imagine if they were meant to be shor range weapons they would have been implemented as short range weapons.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:11:00 - [7] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 17:07:52 "Slightly" overpowered? :) Its about time that those things get in line with the other weapons. I would hope that they get a range reduction too, because they are meant to be SHORT RANGE weapons with that kind of damage. I would like to repeat for you "Torpedo t2 Raven is almost crap." use it only in small gangs having excellent commander. With latest changes torpedo t2 Raven does not exist at all as warship.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Arakasai Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 17:07:52 "Slightly" overpowered? :) Its about time that those things get in line with the other weapons. I would hope that they get a range reduction too, because they are meant to be SHORT RANGE weapons with that kind of damage. At the risk of turning this into yet another flame back and forth on the pros and cons of missiles I find I just have to ask this. How the heck do you know what they are meant to be? Clearly they are meant to be long range weapons because that is how they were implemented. I imagine if they were meant to be shor range weapons they would have been implemented as short range weapons. Well, even though I realize that guns and missiles arent supposed to be exacly the same, for turrets, you have short range, high damage ammo, and long range, low damage ammo. For missiles, you have torpedoes and cruise missiles. Cruise are fast, less damaging and torps are slow, high damage. It goes to reason that torps shouldnt have amazing range, because their damage will then far exceed the damage of turrets once the torpedoes start hitting. Yes, missiles dont hit instantly, but is it fair that they should have very high damage and very high range because of it? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Eilie Edited by: Eilie on 24/10/2006 17:12:25 Good, torps arn't supposed to be better than cruise missiles. Thats why torps skill is rank4 and cruise is rank5. And yes, torps (like rockets and the new heavy assualt missiles) are supposed to be short range, while standard, heavy, and cruise missiles are the lower dmg but far range weapons! looks that you never saw quickfit. Open this beatiful prgram and look for fitting requirements for torpedoes and explain why torpedos require impossible for Raven PG and impossible even for Raven CPU being worse than cruise missiles? For what hell they exist at all?
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:18:00 - [10] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/10/2006 17:19:31 Okay, complete stats for the nerfed Bane and Inferno Javs (unnerfed in brackets)[T1 torp in []] Exp Radius: 400m (300m)[400m] Flight time: 12.5s (25s)[30s] Max. Velocity: 3750m/s (3750 m/s)[1250m/s] Max. Velocity Penalty: -20% (-20%)[0] Exp. Velocity: 500m/s (500 m/s)[250m/s] Damage: 380 (450)[450] Now I know I only use them for PvE so my opinion does not count, but I think this is quite a bit too extreme. Nerf the flight time and even the exp velocity for all I care, but keep the radius and damage the same. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:18:00 - [11] Originally by: Eilie Edited by: Eilie on 24/10/2006 17:12:25 Good, torps arn't supposed to be better than cruise missiles. Thats why torps skill is rank4 and cruise is rank5. And yes, torps (like rockets and the new heavy assualt missiles) are supposed to be short range, while standard, heavy, and cruise missiles are the lower dmg but far range weapons! QFT. The whole "takes 10 minutes to get there" thing would be a bit of a clue, you'd think........ -----------------------------------------------
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:20:00 - [12] Bah! I Still have to train torps to level 5 for a dread down the road. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:21:00 - [13] Edited by: Hoshi on 24/10/2006 17:23:17 Either one of these changes on its own seem alright but both at the same time is over the top. Javlin are supposed to be the torpedo version of precision but with 400m explosion radius that not the case anymore. Now just became long range low damage ammo with very little practical use as long range (above 100km) is never going to be very usefull for missiles (in pvp at least that is, but how many use t2 ammo for pve?). Edit: They nerfed range as well? Then what is the point of using them at all? they reach the target slightly faster but that's about it.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:22:00 - [14] Dont forget that they nerfed the turret ammo damage as well. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:22:00 - [15] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/10/2006 17:19:31 Okay, complete stats for the nerfed Bane and Inferno Javs (unnerfed in brackets)[T1 torp in []] Exp Radius: 400m (300m)[400m] Flight time: 12.5s (25s)[30s] Max. Velocity: 3750m/s (3750 m/s)[1250m/s] Max. Velocity Penalty: -20% (-20%)[0] Exp. Velocity: 500m/s (500 m/s)[250m/s] Damage: 380 (450)[450] Now I know I only use them for PvE so my opinion does not count, but I think this is quite a bit too extreme. Nerf the flight time and even the exp velocity for all I care, but keep the radius and damage the same. But now we have good news, torp Raven is nerfed to death and we, caldari, have one setup to use, cruise. I really want reimbursement of my torpedo skill.
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:24:00 - [16] Why is only bane and inferno nerfed?
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:24:00 - [17] Originally by: Tassi Why is only bane and inferno nerfed? certainly it is bug, and all will be nerfed to death.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Jim McGregor Dont forget that they nerfed the turret ammo damage as well. Yes? How much? 50%?
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:25:00 - [19] Edited by: Tassi on 24/10/2006 17:25:59 If they change the jave torps like this none will use them anymore and everyone will go painters + rage EDIT: since ECM gets nerfed you have free meds for painters
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:26:00 - [20] Cry caldari, cry :)
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:26:00 - [21] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/10/2006 17:26:22 Well only bane and inferno being nerfed holds my hopes high that the nerfed ones are just a bug. And where is Barrage nerfed? Still looked its overpowered self to me when I checked... (Now I am droped and cannot recheck) --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Cry caldari, cry :) Why? Didn't you see the stats of the drake?
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:29:00 - [23] I cry as a mission-*****, not as Caldari. In fact I hate Caldari but I love ISK and Jav torps were great for multiplying the contents of my wallet :P --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:30:00 - [24] haha, brilliant :) About time, too. 600DPS from 240km? NOT ANY MORE.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 17:07:52 "Slightly" overpowered? :) Its about time that those things get in line with the other weapons. I would hope that they get a range reduction too, because they are meant to be SHORT RANGE weapons with that kind of damage. I would like to repeat for you "Torpedo t2 Raven is almost crap." use it only in small gangs having excellent commander. With latest changes torpedo t2 Raven does not exist at all as warship. You seem to forget that they are meant to be used in gangs. MOst if not all caldari ships (this includes amar) are meant to be more effective in gangs. Just cuz people use raven as solo ships doesnt mean that they are meant to be used as such. T2 Torp ravens dont suck as you seem to point out, otherwise the ship wouldnt be seen in pvp at all tbh. This is not really a nerf but rather a measure taken to bring an overpowered weapon down to the others' capabilities.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:33:00 - [26] Edited by: LUKEC on 24/10/2006 17:33:46 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Cry caldari, cry :) Looks like torp spec 5 will await bc 5 :P and bitter dog, it's not that easy to fit full rack of sieges either.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:33:00 - [27] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Eilie Edited by: Eilie on 24/10/2006 17:12:25 Good, torps arn't supposed to be better than cruise missiles. Thats why torps skill is rank4 and cruise is rank5. And yes, torps (like rockets and the new heavy assualt missiles) are supposed to be short range, while standard, heavy, and cruise missiles are the lower dmg but far range weapons! looks that you never saw quickfit. Open this beatiful prgram and look for fitting requirements for torpedoes and explain why torpedos require impossible for Raven PG and impossible even for Raven CPU being worse than cruise missiles? For what hell they exist at all? so? take out some of the stabs from your lowslots and use fitting modules fitting a full rack of torps is no problem for anyone but the most retarded raven pilot
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:36:00 - [28] Originally by: Rehmes You seem to forget that they are meant to be used in gangs. MOst if not all caldari ships (this includes amar) are meant to be more effective in gangs. Just cuz people use raven as solo ships doesnt mean that they are meant to be used as such. T2 Torp ravens dont suck as you seem to point out, otherwise the ship wouldnt be seen in pvp at all tbh. This is not really a nerf but rather a measure taken to bring an overpowered weapon down to the others' capabilities. Javelin dps now is below CRUISE DPS. For what hell shoudl I use torps? And care about fitting? Rage fit is usable only with zillion painters + few webbers + covert + . How many time you have zillion painters? And in any case it is NOT SUITABLE for FLEET BATTLE. And now it is ABSOLUTELY NOT SUITABLE for SMALL GANGS. You cannot kill with javelin(lock time+flight time), but you may scare enemy. At least stupid enemy which cannot use MWD to tank javelins. Now you may scare only industrial. Sometimes. When it is not tanked.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:37:00 - [29] Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 24/10/2006 17:33:46 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Cry caldari, cry :) Looks like torp spec 5 will await bc 5 :P and bitter dog, it's not that easy to fit full rack of sieges either. About as easy as a full rack of Tachs, Neutrons, 425 II's, or any other comparable decent weapon.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:42:00 - [30] Originally by: Testy Mctest Leandro, at the minute these kill everything, even frigates to an extent, and certainly kill everything cruiser sized or bigger. They're basically cruise missiles with much more damage and an irrelevent drawback. They're overpowered, so they've been nerfed. They needed it. I know, because I fly with multiple Ravens everytime I play, and they annihilate anything they hit; it's wrong that a battleship class ship can shoot everything from small to large with one kind of ammo. Drones do that too, but at least they have range issues. I predict price of sieges II droping to 2 mil again... might be good for reprocessing...
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:43:00 - [31] Edited by: Zixxa on 24/10/2006 17:45:12 Originally by: Butter Dog so? take out some of the stabs from your lowslots and use fitting modules fitting a full rack of torps is no problem for anyone but the most retarded raven pilot You are so *tarded, or just noobish? Every idiot in the game could fit anything using RCU and CPU, but it is for small price no damage mods no damage controls no sensor backups(ever heard, dude?) And even with this modules it is NOT EASY to fit MWD 6 Sieges, some kind of tank and heavy NOS.
Hydrian Alante The Loot Company	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:48:00 - [32] Jav Torps are too overpowered. They need a nerf! But I think this nerf is to harsh. Just lower the damage to 380 but keep the ecplosion radius at 300 or just nerf it to 350.
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:48:00 - [33] If they nerf it like the way Leandro posted they will be useless and redundant. However, some nerf should be there because they are ridiculously overpowered, yes I use them you can still run normal torps for bs fights or rage + painter setups.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:48:00 - [34] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/10/2006 17:49:02 Originally by: Testy Mctest Leandro, at the minute these kill everything, even frigates to an extent, and certainly kill everything cruiser sized or bigger. They're basically cruise missiles with much more damage and an irrelevent drawback. They're overpowered, so they've been nerfed. They needed it. I know, because I fly with multiple Ravens everytime I play, and they annihilate anything they hit; it's wrong that a battleship class ship can shoot everything from small to large with one kind of ammo. Drones do that too, but at least they have range issues. And that is a reason to nerf them to a point where using cruise missiles is better in EVERY case? If they are too good against frigs in PvP then nerf their exp velocity. If their range is too long nerf their flight time or missile velocity. But why damage and exp radius? With those stats there is no reason to use them at all. They are much more expensive than T1 torps and do pretty much the same. They fly faster (ooooohh so great) and they have a slightly higher exp velo. Which matters squat if the target is so fast that the exp velo becomes a true damage-reducing factor. This must all be a conspiracy to make my give up PvE and go into the market and PvP full time... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:52:00 - [35] Originally by: Tassi If they nerf it like the way Leandro posted they will be useless and redundant. However, some nerf should be there because they are ridiculously overpowered, yes I use them you can still run normal torps for bs fights or rage + painter setups. Fury cruiser is better than normal torpedos. Rage torpedoes are too specific to be useful anywhere except real fleet command. Painters, webbers, inetl, coverts, etc. With damage output comparable to the standard guhship. And impossibility to use these toprs raven in fleet battle.
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:53:00 - [36] than we will all switch to the drake?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:56:00 - [37] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 17:56:03 Originally by: Tassi If they nerf it like the way Leandro posted they will be useless and redundant. However, some nerf should be there because they are ridiculously overpowered, yes I use them Yeah, NOW people start confessing... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:57:00 - [38] Originally by: Tassi than we will all switch to the drake? No, cuz in a turn drake will be nerfed too. And all missile weapon. I am switching to Gallente and Rokh. Because Rokh is for gallente it will be never nerfed.
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:59:00 - [39] Originally by: Zixxa No, cuz in a turn drake will be nerfed too. And all missile weapon. I am switching to Gallente and Rokh. Because Rokh is for gallente it will be never nerfed. Are you stupid?
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:00:00 - [40] Originally by: Tassi Originally by: Zixxa No, cuz in a turn drake will be nerfed too. And all missile weapon. I am switching to Gallente and Rokh. Because Rokh is for gallente it will be never nerfed. Are you stupid? He's just one of those "Caldari are missiles only" idiots...
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 17:56:03 Originally by: Tassi If they nerf it like the way Leandro posted they will be useless and redundant. However, some nerf should be there because they are ridiculously overpowered, yes I use them Yeah, NOW people start confessing... Most people have been saying for a long time that they where overpowered, that they should been nerfed at the same time as precision cruise. But it's one thing to nerf something overpowered and one thing to make it completly useless. I can't think of even one situation where I would be using these now. No point what so ever. It's like nerfing tremor to have 50% range bonus and do less damage than carbonized lead but give it a slight tracking bonus instead.
Dark PIne	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:03:00 - [42] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/10/2006 17:19:31 Okay, complete stats for the nerfed Bane and Inferno Javs (unnerfed in brackets)[T1 torp in []] Exp Radius: 400m (300m)[400m] Flight time: 12.5s (25s)[30s] Max. Velocity: 3750m/s (3750 m/s)[1250m/s] Max. Velocity Penalty: -20% (-20%)[0] Exp. Velocity: 500m/s (500 m/s)[250m/s] Damage: 380 (450)[450] So, using T2 javelins over T1 torps gives you -20% speed penalty and -16% damage penalty, but you gain +100% in explosion velocity. What is the supposed use of a javelin torpedo in Kali?
Robet Katrix Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:04:00 - [43] i can say, as a experienced user of jav torps, a few things. if they are nerfed as shown here, there will be no reason whatsoever to fit torps anymore. Most torp users figured that javs were in for a small nerf, i figured something on explosion velocity personally, but on dmg AND range as well? W T F mate. torps did more dmg to bs and cruisers, and comparable to precision dmg to frigs at lower velocity. I figured it was meant to be torp best vs BS both about equal on cruisers, and cruise best vs. frigs the thing is to fit a fullr ack of t2 seige you need a cpu and in most cases an rcu or at least one pds as well to run a mwd/nos other modules. Cruise being far easier to fit did a bit less dmg but allowed for more utility in your lows and other 2 highs. as it stands missiles will be the lowest DPS large weaponry in the game. javs outdid some thing in long range, even though 20 seconds to reach target with JAVS never seems to figure into range calculations. anyways. whats a load of crap. i now understand why people whine. because ccp always overdoes it. at least i have t2 cruise to work with as well... but those sucked to hell to begin with vs. anything bigger than a t1 cruiser.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:05:00 - [44] Originally by: Tassi Are you stupid? No. I am clever. And I am switching to Gallente. Do you follow me?
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:08:00 - [45] drake my friend!
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:09:00 - [46] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Testy Mctest Leandro, at the minute these kill everything, even frigates to an extent, and certainly kill everything cruiser sized or bigger. They're basically cruise missiles with much more damage and an irrelevent drawback. They're overpowered, so they've been nerfed. They needed it. I know, because I fly with multiple Ravens everytime I play, and they annihilate anything they hit; it's wrong that a battleship class ship can shoot everything from small to large with one kind of ammo. Drones do that too, but at least they have range issues. I predict price of sieges II droping to 2 mil again... might be good for reprocessing... Rage have got a rather nice boost, so I'm not sure about that.
El Yatta Caldari Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:09:00 - [47] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/10/2006 17:19:31 Okay, complete stats for the nerfed Bane and Inferno Javs (unnerfed in brackets)[T1 torp in []] Exp Radius: 400m (300m)[400m] Flight time: 12.5s (25s)[30s] Max. Velocity: 3750m/s (3750 m/s)[1250m/s] Max. Velocity Penalty: -20% (-20%)[0] Exp. Velocity: 500m/s (500 m/s)[250m/s] Damage: 380 (450)[450] Now I know I only use them for PvE so my opinion does not count, but I think this is quite a bit too extreme. Nerf the flight time and even the exp velocity for all I care, but keep the radius and damage the same. I dont understand this. I fly with jav torps a lot, and they are uber. Yes, they needed a nerf (although anyone who says they are useful vs frigs is clueless, last time I was tackled by a claw in my jav raven I didn't scratch it with javs, I killed it with warrior IIs). they needed a MEDIUM SIZED nerf, but now looking at the above they dont seem to be better than T1 in anyway at all! People (stupid people) said the same of rages, but they are fantastic vs capitals and in gangs with painters (such a lot of fun, but requires great co-ordination and sacrifice of ECM in the gang for painters). However, who is going to sacrifice a large chunk of damage for... a tiny range improvement (over t1's quite uber range for high-damage ammo) - 3x speed (no nerf) but just over 1/3 flight time (useless), and no longer any explosion radius improvement. So, whats the advantage of them, then? Exactly? Double explosion velocity? T2 torps are situational, rage's situation is vs capitals and when you have huginn support. So whats Javelin's sitution - vs. targets with 400 sig yet go faster than 250m/s? Whats that, dominixes with afterburners or something? My proposed changes would be: Attribute: My Nerf, \|SiSi Nerf\| (TQ) [Tech 1] Exp Radius: 320m \|400\| (300m)[400m] Flight time: 20s \|12.5s\| (25s)[30s] Max. Velocity: 3750m/s \|3750m/s\| (3750 m/s)[1250m/s] Max. Velocity Penalty: -20% \|-20%\| (-20%)[0] Exp. Velocity: 500m/s \|500m/s\| (500 m/s)[250m/s] Damage: 425 \|380\| (450)[450] I feel nerfing damage, range and explosion radius is enough, without removing the benefit in ALL of those departments. ---\|\|---
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:10:00 - [48] Rage got a boost? what??
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:14:00 - [49] Originally by: Zixxa Javelin dps now is below CRUISE DPS. For what hell shoudl I use torps? And care about fitting? Rage fit is usable only with zillion painters + few webbers + covert + . How many time you have zillion painters? QFT Javelins needed nerf, but that goes overboard tbh. We got now complete reverse, previously there was no need to use Fury cruises, now Javelins are worthless. Please strike a balance. On another subject cruises Fury, 10 secs flight time, max speed 1750, and damage only 15% more then generic cruises is this a joke or what?
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:15:00 - [50] There is no place to nerf further javelin in terms of damage. AFAIR it only 25% more damage that fury cruise. 10% less damage for javelin and you have to fit fury cruise, it is much more effective, simple to fit and precision cruise much more useful than javelins.
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:18:00 - [51] Originally by: Tassi Rage got a boost? what?? Where??? As useless as ever.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:20:00 - [52] Originally by: Tassi Rage got a boost? what?? Say goodbye to 1000m explosion radius... and hello to a 600m radius.
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:22:00 - [53] hmm thats quite a boost, dmg still the same?
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:23:00 - [54] Originally by: Leandro Salazar With those stats there is no reason to use them at all. Im no good at pulling missile stats from the top of my head, but I'll take your word for that; hopefully they'll nerf them less by the time they come out, then. But to be perfectly honest, with the state of missiles in this game currently, I dont think I'll ever be unhappy to see missiles overnerfed; they're simply too unbalanced. Now, rage torps with a 600m explosion radius? Hmm.... Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:23:00 - [55] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Tassi Rage got a boost? what?? Say goodbye to 1000m explosion radius... and hello to a 600m radius. Great deal! Turn on MWD and be happy. With 100 m/sec explosion it is required some webbing toooooooo. And correct distance tooooo. And for Raven "famous" with its speed, agility, lots of PG to fit MWD and few free low slots to fit some nanos it is easy task. What the level of stupidity!
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:24:00 - [56] Originally by: Tassi hmm thats quite a boost, dmg still the same? Its not, bit less, can't remember off hand. And range is reduced. But thats fine its a close range weapon. Its going to hurt battleships a lot if you have a target painter though.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:31:00 - [57] Originally by: Butter Dog An MWD will give the average BS a sig radius of 2200. So won't they just hit for full damage? Because of explosion velocity. 5 times reduced damage half, 6 times reduced damage to 80%, 7 times(700m/sec - easy for any BS in game)reduces damage almost to zero. Guys, I am tired to explain so simple things. May be you will have some time to read the FAQ???
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:31:00 - [58] Edited by: Zar Dim on 24/10/2006 18:32:58 Originally by: Butter Dog An MWD will give the average BS a sig radius of 2200. So won't they just hit for full damage? 100 explosion velocity! Now calculate for how much damage it will hit?
Robet Katrix Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:00:00 - [59] no. if it's speed exceeds 100km the torps do substanially less dmg. meaning you need a web on it as well
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:12:00 - [60] I will await the time until Tuxford has worked out how to read his own writing or the benefits of copy+paste before casting any judgement.
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:26:00 - [61] Originally by: Robet Katrix no. if it's speed exceeds 100km the torps do substanially less dmg. meaning you need a web on it as well Yeah, now to the easy part, how to web someone in the raven. When this someone wants to keep a distance.
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:32:00 - [62] So one of the worst DPS ammo gets nerfed even more... This doesnt make any sense to me. WildCat
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:55:00 - [63] Edited by: Paigan on 24/10/2006 19:58:34 Originally by: Testy Mctest Leandro, at the minute these kill everything, even frigates to an extent, and certainly kill everything cruiser sized or bigger. They're basically cruise missiles with much more damage and an irrelevent drawback. They're overpowered, so they've been nerfed. They needed it. I know, because I fly with multiple Ravens everytime I play, and they annihilate anything they hit; it's wrong that a battleship class ship can shoot everything from small to large with one kind of ammo. Drones do that too, but at least they have range issues. Okay i agree that they were overpowered and needed a nerf. Half range and 400m explosionradius would be okay. But also less damage than T1 drives them hard to the edge of uselessness. For getting T2 turret ammo reduced from 200% imbalance to 150% imbalance (compared to T1 turrets, not to missiles), the T2 Torps get nerfed from 120% imbalance to around 70% "balance" (or 30% uselessness if you know what i mean) Javelins are hardly better than T1 Torps now, more like a variation on an equal tech level. While T2 turret ammo is still totally over the regular T2 bonus design. -- This game is still in beta stage
Nybbas Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:19:00 - [64] null get a large tracking nerf now, try to look at the other ammo types before you start complaining that they didnt get nerfed. Also HAHAHA JAVELIN TORPS FINALLY GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED! less damage than t1? ono!! Spike ammo does less damage than tech 1, you dont see my whining.
Commoner Caldari The Foundation of Free Traders The Core Collective	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:21:00 - [65] Originally by: Nybbas null get a large tracking nerf now, try to look at the other ammo types before you start complaining that they didnt get nerfed. Also HAHAHA JAVELIN TORPS FINALLY GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED! less damage than t1? ono!! Spike ammo does less damage than tech 1, you dont see my whining. Doesn't spike give better dmg than the longrange T1 counterpart?
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:36:00 - [66] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 17:07:52 "Slightly" overpowered? :) Its about time that those things get in line with the other weapons. I would hope that they get a range reduction too, because they are meant to be SHORT RANGE weapons with that kind of damage. I would like to repeat for you "Torpedo t2 Raven is almost crap." use it only in small gangs having excellent commander. With latest changes torpedo t2 Raven does not exist at all as warship. A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. Now that Void L has recieved a reduction in damage the Torp Raven vs. Blasterthron engagment will be even closer and you have the audacity to whine? ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Hex'Caliber Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:45:00 - [67] All t2 ammo has been changed so that the penalties only affect the weapon. Advanced blaster ammo has a severe tracking penalty now. A nightmare for ships like the Taranis and the high transversal speeds needed to stay alive and I hate to think what it will do to the Hyperion which already misses out on the tracking bonus of the mega. I am sure these changes will all see a fair amount of rebalancing before they hit live, or at least, I hope to god they do. Regards HexCaliber
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:47:00 - [68] Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:52:00 - [69] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:02:00 - [70] Originally by: Testy Mctest it's wrong that a battleship class ship can shoot everything from small to large with one kind of ammo. . /me looks at dominix, if you assume drones are ammo.... Originally by: Testy Mctest Drones do that too, but at least they have range issues. Being able to instantly hit at 205km with t1 gear not enough for the new drone snipers? --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
GrumpyCat	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:02:00 - [71] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Calling someone a noob when you're dieing to a torp raven in a megatron. So funny. Here's a hint fit MWD and heavy drones II.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:13:00 - [72] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Butter Dog An MWD will give the average BS a sig radius of 2200. So won't they just hit for full damage? Because of explosion velocity. 5 times reduced damage half, 6 times reduced damage to 80%, 7 times(700m/sec - easy for any BS in game)reduces damage almost to zero. Guys, I am tired to explain so simple things. May be you will have some time to read the FAQ??? 500 m/s = 93% base damage 600 m/s = 89% base damage 700 m/s = 85% damage 540 * 0.85 = 459 That's still more than a T1 torp. Please go back to arguing for stabs, it seems more your cup of tea.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:23:00 - [73] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Go-go to pilot "kindergarden", may be it helps to you
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:29:00 - [74] Originally by: GrumpyCat Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Calling someone a noob when you're dieing to a torp raven in a megatron. So funny. Here's a hint fit MWD and heavy drones II. Quite frankly he/she deserves it - hiding behind an alt, and calling someone a liar whilst clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Besides, I haven't died to a torp Raven, reading comprehension 4tl eh? But anyway let me enlighten you as to Torp Raven vs. Blasterthron, IÆm showing you the numbers but this is not simply æin theoryÆ, this is tried and tested with real shipsà Megathron; Ion Blaster II's Ogre II's Void Large, 2x Dmg mods, plate/rep Omni tank - typical balanced Blasterthron. 900 Dps + 317 dps (drones) (includes 3% Rof/large hybrid damage implants) 79/53/67/67 resists, 71 hp/sec repair. Raven, Siege II, 3x BCU II, Hammerhead II's Inv Field II's, XL C5-L with boost amp - yes I have fought this during testing with a good friend. 688 dps + 158 dps (drones) 57/83/74/66 resists, 156 hp/sec repair. Now look at the respective 'kill times' vs. the tanks: Megathron vs Raven, (797 dps vs 66% + 420 dps vs 74%) - 156/sec = 224 dps 7500/224 = 33.5 sec Raven vs Megathron, (688 dps vs 53% + 158 dps vs 67%) - 74/sec = 301 dps bleedthrough 10841/301 = 36 sec 2.5 seconds difference, and what did this assume? 1/ Both ships start firing at the same time. 2/ Both ships are stationary and within 2.6km So as you can see, sub 15km the Megathron wins by a gnats whisker (33%-50% Structure to put it into perspective), take the starting range over that and the Raven wins. Oh and what's a Raven's maximum range with torps again?... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:32:00 - [75] Originally by: GrumpyCat Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Calling someone a noob when you're dieing to a torp raven in a megatron. So funny. Here's a hint fit MWD and heavy drones II. Actually, Gabriel is right.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:32:00 - [76] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Go-go to pilot "kindergarden", may be it helps to you They should just ban alts from the forums... Anyway read the post above, and as I stated there, this is not simply 'theory' this is what happens in practice, unless of course you don't know how to fit a Tank/Gank Torp Raven. ...I mean you are less than a month into the game afterall... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:35:00 - [77] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: GrumpyCat Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Calling someone a noob when you're dieing to a torp raven in a megatron. So funny. Here's a hint fit MWD and heavy drones II. Actually, Gabriel is right. Zixxa is most more vehemently wrong than Gabriel will ever be right though
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:35:00 - [78] Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg Because of explosion velocity. 5 times reduced damage half, 6 times reduced damage to 80%, 7 times(700m/sec - easy for any BS in game)reduces damage almost to zero. Guys, I am tired to explain so simple things. May be you will have some time to read the FAQ??? 500 m/s = 93% base damage 600 m/s = 89% base damage 700 m/s = 85% damage Are you idiot? Never seen rage trops in action? So expecially for you, noobie, CCP created good missile guide where explained how high speed of targets protect you(noobie-forever) from missiles. Because real life warfare is not for you. Quote: That's still more than a T1 torp. If you HAVE ENOUGH TP IN RANGE. Quote: Please go back to arguing for stabs, it seems more your cup of tea. Please, get away, u dum noob. You do not understad eve basics of the gameplay and have experience of the trial user before tutorial.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:38:00 - [79] Edited by: Butter Dog on 24/10/2006 21:38:57 Originally by: Zixxa Are you idiot? Never seen rage trops in action? So expecially for you, noobie, CCP created good missile guide where explained how high speed of targets protect you(noobie-forever) from missiles. Because real life warfare is not for you. So you will have to use a web like every other close range T2 ammo? And?
Leshrac Shepherd Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:38:00 - [80] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Leandro Salazar With those stats there is no reason to use them at all. Im no good at pulling missile stats from the top of my head, but I'll take your word for that; hopefully they'll nerf them less by the time they come out, then. To tell you the truth, if the problem is that T2 torps having 150km max range don't have enough range to warrant fitting them instead of T1, the solution comes from cutting the range on T1 torps, not increasing T2 range.
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:44:00 - [81] The problem, as many of you have pointed out was jav torps hitting small ships. Had they not nerfed the range of the torps too, this would have been kind of solved with the 400m exp radius. But anyone who uses jav torps for 100+ ranges will switch to cruise meaning smaller ships are in MORE danger. And to all those who say torps should be short ranged. I specifically remember Tuxford or TomB saying they wanted to give missle users more fleet/long range options when javelin torps were introduced. So I don't understand why the flight time was messed with in such a way. Javelin torps now do less damage than t1, but will obviously hit the target faster. If your in a close range fight, I'd prefer the damage. Javelins will have a niche of about 80-100km on a raven. Anything below that will be t1 torps, anything above that will be cruise. But I'm sure Tuxford already knows this and won't mind explaing his logic behind this
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:13:00 - [82] Originally by: Butter Dog haha, brilliant :) About time, too. 600DPS from 240km? NOT ANY MORE. Range wasn't the issue IMO. Signature and explosion velocity was why I used javelin torps. Ah well, needed it for citadels, but it does make both models of torp very limited in usefulness. Less damage, fair enough. Lower range, fair enough. 25% signature increase on top of these things makes their usefulness more debatable. OK, so they're still better on explosion velocity than T1s, but ... shrug. I'll play with the drake whilst I'm waiting for cruise 5 to finish.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:20:00 - [83] They are even listed in the market as 'Advanced long range torpedoes'. Guess someone has to make a new category now, like 'Obsolete suckage torpedoes'. The exp radius nerf really kills them. Why not nerf exp velocity instead and keep the exp radius? If a frig in PvP is slow enough to be affected by a 250 m/s exp velocity torp, it by all means should die imho. As for the flight time nerf, I am all for that. Long range missiles are a stupid concept by default. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:23:00 - [84] I guess i'll fit cruises again... furys + damps will still work. Nerf resistance 4tw.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:24:00 - [85] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Go-go to pilot "kindergarden", may be it helps to you They should just ban alts from the forums... Anyway read the post above, and as I stated there, this is not simply 'theory' this is what happens in practice, unless of course you don't know how to fit a Tank/Gank Torp Raven. ...I mean you are less than a month into the game afterall... Go-go to kinderarden and read "arythmeticss for dumbs" Mega kill time 5(str)+7(arm)+30(shield) = 42sec Raven kill time 6(str)+32(arm)+15(shield) = 56 sec Raven is dead, and left your quickfit theory for your mommy. Also I wonder how happy Raven choosing the only right missile. Shaman?
Robet Katrix Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:38:00 - [86] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Go-go to pilot "kindergarden", may be it helps to you They should just ban alts from the forums... Anyway read the post above, and as I stated there, this is not simply 'theory' this is what happens in practice, unless of course you don't know how to fit a Tank/Gank Torp Raven. ...I mean you are less than a month into the game afterall... just because he is new does not mean he is wrong. as it stands a blaster mega will kick the **** out of a raven 90% of the time, in solo one on one combat. The other 10% of the time the mega usually retains the ability to mwd away and warp away as well, since no ravens of any decent setup have a web. your calculations are off in so many ways im not going to waste my time, but if you actually think that TEIR 1 torps will beat a t2 megathron your an idiot.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:47:00 - [87] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 24/10/2006 22:54:50 Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Go-go to pilot "kindergarden", may be it helps to you They should just ban alts from the forums... Anyway read the post above, and as I stated there, this is not simply 'theory' this is what happens in practice, unless of course you don't know how to fit a Tank/Gank Torp Raven. ...I mean you are less than a month into the game afterall... Go-go to kinderarden and read "arythmeticss for dumbs" Mega kill time 5(str)+7(arm)+30(shield) = 42sec Raven kill time 6(str)+32(arm)+15(shield) = 56 sec Raven is dead, and left your quickfit theory for your mommy. Also I wonder how happy Raven choosing the only right missile. Shaman? Oh I feel a forum warning coming up, but by all means keep it up Firstly I never use quickfit, from what I've seen of other peoples use it uses too many errors. Secondly re-read the numbered assumptions in my post. Those kill times are only applicable if both ships start stationary within the 2.6km optimal of Void L. Thirdly this isn't an exercise in number crunching (my arithmetic is just fine thanks) this is tried and tested. Fourthly, post with your main, or is hiding behind an alt spamming insults the best you can do? ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:53:00 - [88] TBH, comparing megas to ravens is pointless. It almost never happens and their damages work in vastly different ways.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:54:00 - [89] Originally by: Robet Katrix Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Go-go to pilot "kindergarden", may be it helps to you They should just ban alts from the forums... Anyway read the post above, and as I stated there, this is not simply 'theory' this is what happens in practice, unless of course you don't know how to fit a Tank/Gank Torp Raven. ...I mean you are less than a month into the game afterall... just because he is new does not mean he is wrong. as it stands a blaster mega will kick the ** out of a raven 90% of the time, in solo one on one combat. The other 10% of the time the mega usually retains the ability to mwd away and warp away as well, since no ravens of any decent setup have a web. your calculations are off in so many ways im not going to waste my time, but if you actually think that TEIR 1 torps will beat a t2 megathron your an idiot. Then post how they are or STFU. This is tried and tested, not simply theory. Put Raven (T2 fitting with T1 torps) at >15km from a Blaster Megathron and your "kicking the out of a Raven 90% of the time" is utter *****s mate. From a 15km start its a 33%-50% structure job. Oh and one more thing, I'm not the one hiding behind an alt spamming insults here. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Nybbas Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:04:00 - [90] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 24/10/2006 23:00:55 Originally by: Robet Katrix Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Go-go to pilot "kindergarden", may be it helps to you They should just ban alts from the forums... Anyway read the post above, and as I stated there, this is not simply 'theory' this is what happens in practice, unless of course you don't know how to fit a Tank/Gank Torp Raven. ...I mean you are less than a month into the game afterall... just because he is new does not mean he is wrong. as it stands a blaster mega will kick the ** out of a raven 90% of the time, in solo one on one combat. The other 10% of the time the mega usually retains the ability to mwd away and warp away as well, since no ravens of any decent setup have a web. your calculations are off in so many ways im not going to waste my time, but if you actually think that TEIR 1 torps will beat a t2 megathron your an idiot. Then post how they are or STFU. This is tried and tested, not simply theory. Put Raven (T2 fitting with T1 torps) at >15km from a Blaster Megathron and your "kicking the ** out of a Raven 90% of the time" is utter nonsense mate. From a 15km start its a 33%-50% structure job. Oh and one more thing, I'm not the one hiding behind an alt spamming insults here. you were overgenerous in your calculations, you didnt even take into account that the megathrons DPS is actually less due to not only a nerf from the tracking speed from the void ammo, but also the fact that any close range fighting that involves movement is going to hurt your DPS bad because large guns + close range on any target is a nightmare, even with blasters on a megathron with level 5 skills. not to mention a ravens biggest shield resistances are going to be your only two damage types, while the enemy pilot is able to choose. : ) to everyone else disagreeing with him, congrats on being wrong. And to all you javelin torp users... cry more please. My only regret is that I wasn't able to use this overpowered weapon type a little bit more on my caldari alt before it was nerfed.
Robet Katrix Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:04:00 - [91] Edited by: Robet Katrix on 24/10/2006 23:08:17 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Robet Katrix Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Go-go to pilot "kindergarden", may be it helps to you They should just ban alts from the forums... Anyway read the post above, and as I stated there, this is not simply 'theory' this is what happens in practice, unless of course you don't know how to fit a Tank/Gank Torp Raven. ...I mean you are less than a month into the game afterall... just because he is new does not mean he is wrong. as it stands a blaster mega will kick the ** out of a raven 90% of the time, in solo one on one combat. The other 10% of the time the mega usually retains the ability to mwd away and warp away as well, since no ravens of any decent setup have a web. your calculations are off in so many ways im not going to waste my time, but if you actually think that TEIR 1 torps will beat a t2 megathron your an idiot. Then post how they are or STFU. This is tried and tested, not simply theory. Put Raven (T2 fitting with T1 torps) at >15km from a Blaster Megathron and your "kicking the out of a Raven 90% of the time" is utter ***s mate. From a 15km start its a 33%-50% structure job. Oh and one more thing, I'm not the one hiding behind an alt spamming insults here. neither am i. I am in no way afraid to post with my main, so dont accusse me of being the last poster. If you TRULY believe this list the FULL setups for both ships, and the relevant skills. Raven, Siege II, 3x BCU II, Hammerhead II's Inv Field II's, XL C5-L with boost amp - yes I have fought this during testing with a good friend. I need to know what your mids are setup with and the other low. including your other two highs. I also need to know whats in your 8th mega high beacuase its very important. you dont consider cap. you dont factor in missile dmg type. you assume from your omni tank, exp dmg yet you dont properly account for it in your sheild calculations. you say you dont use quickfit, so were did you get your dps calculations. i'd like to see that as well. also your standard mega fitting is pretty **ty. edit: forgot to add in the wrecking factor.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:14:00 - [92] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 24/10/2006 22:54:50 Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Go-go to pilot "kindergarden", may be it helps to you They should just ban alts from the forums... Anyway read the post above, and as I stated there, this is not simply 'theory' this is what happens in practice, unless of course you don't know how to fit a Tank/Gank Torp Raven. ...I mean you are less than a month into the game afterall... Go-go to kinderarden and read "arythmeticss for dumbs" Mega kill time 5(str)+7(arm)+30(shield) = 42sec Raven kill time 6(str)+32(arm)+15(shield) = 56 sec Raven is dead, and left your quickfit theory for your mommy. Also I wonder how happy Raven choosing the only right missile. Shaman? Oh I feel a forum warning coming up, but by all means keep it up Firstly I never use quickfit, from what I've seen of other peoples use it uses too many errors. Secondly re-read the numbered assumptions in my post. Those kill times are only applicable if both ships start stationary within the 2.6km optimal of Void L. Thirdly this isn't an exercise in number crunching (my arithmetic is just fine thanks) this is tried and tested. Please, stop. You are wrong, cuz you a) choose good Mega setup for Raven b) choose best missile for Raven c) forgot to count structure and shield for Mega and structure with armour for Raven Skilled Mega pilot will eat Raven in above metioned setup. There is nothing to discuss.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:19:00 - [93] Originally by: Robet Katrix Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Robet Katrix Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Go-go to pilot "kindergarden", may be it helps to you They should just ban alts from the forums... Anyway read the post above, and as I stated there, this is not simply 'theory' this is what happens in practice, unless of course you don't know how to fit a Tank/Gank Torp Raven. ...I mean you are less than a month into the game afterall... just because he is new does not mean he is wrong. as it stands a blaster mega will kick the ** out of a raven 90% of the time, in solo one on one combat. The other 10% of the time the mega usually retains the ability to mwd away and warp away as well, since no ravens of any decent setup have a web. your calculations are off in so many ways im not going to waste my time, but if you actually think that TEIR 1 torps will beat a t2 megathron your an idiot. Then post how they are or STFU. This is tried and tested, not simply theory. Put Raven (T2 fitting with T1 torps) at >15km from a Blaster Megathron and your "kicking the out of a Raven 90% of the time" is utter ***s mate. From a 15km start its a 33%-50% structure job. Oh and one more thing, I'm not the one hiding behind an alt spamming insults here. neither am i. I am in no way afraid to post with my main, so dont accusse me of being the last poster. If you TRULY believe this list the FULL setups for both ships, and the relevant skills. Raven, Siege II, 3x BCU II, Hammerhead II's Inv Field II's, XL C5-L with boost amp - yes I have fought this during testing with a good friend. I need to know what your mids are setup with and the other low. including your other two highs. I also need to know whats in your 8th mega high beacuase its very important. you dont consider cap. you dont factor in missile dmg type. you assume from your omni tank, exp dmg yet you dont properly account for it in your sheild calculations. you say you dont use quickfit, so were did you get your dps calculations. i'd like to see that as well. also your standard mega fitting is pretty ty. You misunderstand my post, I'm not accusing you of hiding behind an alt, yet you appear to stand up for the alt poster while flaming me... The skills are maximum, the Megathron damage is read off the fitted modules in game**. The Raven damage was read off my co testers fitting's (though I may be mistaken and it was actually 4 BCU plus the Co-Processor, rather than 3 BCU + Power diag + Co-Processor). The 8th Megathron High slot is empty, because after fitting 7x Ion II, MWD, Web, Scrambler, Cap Injector, 2x EANM, 1x DCU, 1x 1600mm Tungsten and a LAR II you run out of CPU (again Maximum fitting skills), but of course you know that don't you? The other two high slots on the Raven are irrelevant...and finally just who are you with regards to being the fountain of all wisdom on what is a good/bad blasterthron setup? - that is THE standard Ion Blaster II setup for good reason, I myself have been flying the thing almost exclusively for as long as youÆve been in-gameà ---------- - Office Linebacker -
GrumpyCat	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:26:00 - [94] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Raven, Siege II, 3x BCU II, Hammerhead II's Inv Field II's, XL C5-L with boost amp - yes I have fought this during testing with a good friend. ... Doesn't fit even with max fitting(assuming 3 inv field IIs and two PDS II). Even if the raven leaves two empty high slots and one empty mid slot. Here's the real kicker, try to get a tech 2 shield booster on a raven with tech 2 torps. Also match you drone damage to raven's weakest resist that being EM. Raven excels at one thing, kicking the crap out of NPCs with select a damage and the ability to deal the same damage at all ranges. Training for a raven for pvp is waste unless your doing small gang(3-5) and have dedicated tackler/webber.
Robet Katrix Beagle Corp R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:29:00 - [95] Edited by: Robet Katrix on 24/10/2006 23:33:17 Quote: You misunderstand my post, I'm not accusing you of hiding behind an alt, yet you appear to stand up for the alt poster while flaming me... The skills are maximum, the Megathron damage is read off the fitted modules in game. The Raven damage was read off my co testers fitting's (though I may be mistaken and it was actually 4 BCU plus the Co-Processor, rather than 3 BCU + Power diag + Co-Processor). The 8th Megathron High slot is empty, because after fitting 7x Ion II, MWD, Web, Scrambler, Cap Injector, 2x EANM, 1x DCU, 1x 1600mm Tungsten and a LAR II you run out of CPU (again Maximum fitting skills), but of course you know that don't you? The other two high slots on the Raven are irrelevant...and finally just who are you with regards to being the fountain of all wisdom on what is a good/bad blasterthron setup? - that is THE standard Ion Blaster II setup for good reason, I myself have been flying the thing almost exclusively for as long as youÆve been in-gameà ok mate here are some interesting points based on this reply. 1. You just changed your setup from dual EAN + DC from omni, which is quite an important thing to note. It kinda changes like everything. 2. you admit your dps calculation is likely wrong. You say the damage mods are taken off ingame modules. 3. You did not answer my question to what was in the ravens mids. 4. my ignorance at the alt post comment not directed at me. 5. my experience in blasterthrons is no doubt inferior to yours in length, but it only takes so long to understand a ship. To understand my anger you need to realize this mate. Your race has the solo pwnmobiles. I get jav torps. they aren't incredibly useful in all sitautions and i know what and when i cant take what. edit : 57/83/74/66 resists, 156 hp/sec repair. can you please list how you got both parts of that?
El Yatta Caldari Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:33:00 - [96] Edited by: El Yatta on 24/10/2006 23:35:01 Far too many people who have responded with crap like "hah! 200km torps no more!" and "other short range ammo got a nerf" and stuff need to actually think about the weapon. Because missiles work in a very different way to guns, you rarely pick a missile type for range. You pick it for applications in your gang and what size/number of opponents you are likely to face. E.g. even though void got slapped with a nerf, there will still be situations (plenty of situations, even) when you are likely to use it over AM. I know I will, being a t2 blaster pilot as well as a t2 seige pilot! Now, there is no reason to use Javs. They needed a nerf, but now there isnt a reason for them being in the game. Ergo, too far. How is that difficult to see? All modules, ships, weapons and ammo should have a (situational) use! T2 javelin torpedoes no longer have that, they are worse in every way to t1 (which already have great range) and to cruise. EDIT: also, stfu about megathron! Raven vs mega is, as Shin pointed out, reasonably rare in 1v1 anyway, and anyway, this is about Javelins! Megathron has signature higher than 400 anyway, so you would always use t1 torps on it, or possibly fire rages if think you can smash him before he deactivates his MWD. ---\|\|---
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:36:00 - [97] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 24/10/2006 22:54:50 Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade A Tank/Gank torpedo raven with T1 torps leaves a Blasterthron with T2 ammo (Void L) dead if the starting range is >15km. Even <15km it's too damn close considering the range that Raven can hit out to. You lie. Period. You have no idea what you are talking about little noob, run along now. Go-go to pilot "kindergarden", may be it helps to you They should just ban alts from the forums... Anyway read the post above, and as I stated there, this is not simply 'theory' this is what happens in practice, unless of course you don't know how to fit a Tank/Gank Torp Raven. ...I mean you are less than a month into the game afterall... Go-go to kinderarden and read "arythmeticss for dumbs" Mega kill time 5(str)+7(arm)+30(shield) = 42sec Raven kill time 6(str)+32(arm)+15(shield) = 56 sec Raven is dead, and left your quickfit theory for your mommy. Also I wonder how happy Raven choosing the only right missile. Shaman? Oh I feel a forum warning coming up, but by all means keep it up Firstly I never use quickfit, from what I've seen of other peoples use it uses too many errors. Secondly re-read the numbered assumptions in my post. Those kill times are only applicable if both ships start stationary within the 2.6km optimal of Void L. Thirdly this isn't an exercise in number crunching (my arithmetic is just fine thanks) this is tried and tested. Please, stop. You are wrong, cuz you a) choose good Mega setup for Raven b) choose best missile for Raven c) forgot to count structure and shield for Mega and structure with armour for Raven Skilled Mega pilot will eat Raven in above metioned setup. There is nothing to discuss. Ah so we've run out of arguments now have we? What do you not understand about "Tried and tested"? What do you not understand about "assumes both ships start stationary, sat 2.6km away"? (I didn't 'forget' about structure/armour on the Raven, I was illustrating the point of Kill times vs the tanked layer under perfect and completely unrealistic starting conditions for the Megathron to be in. Any semi-intelligent Raven pilot knows a Megathron is armour tanked, and given it starts with base EXP resistance of 10% - should thus be throwing Bane torpedos at the tank. In Summary: At less than 15km, for comparable skills, the Megathron wins, barely surviving on structure. At greater than 15km the extra damage taken spells doom for the Megathron - it's that simple, and it's not as if it isn't well known (apart from in this thread apparently), it's been tested enough on TQ and Sisi. Now going back to my first post and first point Void L just had a 7% reduction in damage, to who's advantage does that swing things?... Like I said, you have no reason to complain about the effectivness of a Gank/Tank torpedo Raven (ask AC Tempest pilots about it while you're at it), and if you'd tested the actual fight as I have, you would realise that. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:50:00 - [98] Originally by: Robet Katrix Edited by: Robet Katrix on 24/10/2006 23:33:17 Quote: You misunderstand my post, I'm not accusing you of hiding behind an alt, yet you appear to stand up for the alt poster while flaming me... The skills are maximum, the Megathron damage is read off the fitted modules in game. The Raven damage was read off my co testers fitting's (though I may be mistaken and it was actually 4 BCU plus the Co-Processor, rather than 3 BCU + Power diag + Co-Processor). The 8th Megathron High slot is empty, because after fitting 7x Ion II, MWD, Web, Scrambler, Cap Injector, 2x EANM, 1x DCU, 1x 1600mm Tungsten and a LAR II you run out of CPU (again Maximum fitting skills), but of course you know that don't you? The other two high slots on the Raven are irrelevant...and finally just who are you with regards to being the fountain of all wisdom on what is a good/bad blasterthron setup? - that is THE standard Ion Blaster II setup for good reason, I myself have been flying the thing almost exclusively for as long as youÆve been in-gameà ok mate here are some interesting points based on this reply. 1. You just changed your setup from dual EAN + DC from omni, which is quite an important thing to note. It kinda changes like everything. 2. you admit your dps calculation is likely wrong. You say the damage mods are taken off ingame modules. 3. You did not answer my question to what was in the ravens mids. 4. my ignorance at the alt post comment not directed at me. 5. my experience in blasterthrons is no doubt inferior to yours in length, but it only takes so long to understand a ship. To understand my anger you need to realize this mate. Your race has the solo pwnmobiles. I get jav torps. they aren't incredibly useful in all sitautions and i know what and when i cant take what. edit : 57/83/74/66 resists, 156 hp/sec repair. can you please list how you got both parts of that? 1/I did nothing of the sort, 'OMNI TANK' is the common term for 2xEANM and 1 DCU 2/Oh FFS, I read the flipping numbers off the 'show info' tab when they were fitted to my ship in game they don't get any more correct than that! 3/Except for the Heavy Electrochemical Injector (you can actually boost for 60 seconds without this) it was already stated in the first post, XL C5-L, Boost amp, 3x inv Field II's 4/ok. 5/Only takes so long to understand, takes flippin' ages to truely gain every last bit possible from it So you're angry about the Dominix (that is the only BS solo-pwn mobile), well I guess that caused you to miss the point of my first post, namely: At present the Blasterthron vs Raven (T1 Torps) is very close under sub 15km conditions and pretty one sided above it (consider the range that Raven can fire out to - 80km vs 2.6km) and Void L just got a 7% damage reduction, making it an even closer fight in the sub 15km range (needs yet to be tested) Last bit, 156 hp/sec is an XL C5-L with boost amp, resistances from 3x Inv Field II's (check out the tanking guide spreadsheet which precisely matches the in-game fitted module values) ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Yamaeda	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:52:00 - [99] Originally by: Zar Dim Edited by: Zar Dim on 24/10/2006 18:29:06 Rage as useless as ever, Damage lowered from 675 to 540, quite a nerf tbh. As for explosion radius, you could increase BS radius using TPs, say 2 TP. But you can't lower BS speed exp. velocity remains the same 100 m/s, and you still have -20% cap recharge on every launcher. Rage vs BS (stationary): Before 675400/1000 = 270 Now 540400/600 = 360 buff vs bs = +33% (!) How's that "as useless as ever" and not a great buff? /Y
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:55:00 - [100] Originally by: El Yatta Edited by: El Yatta on 24/10/2006 23:35:01 Far too many people who have responded with crap like "hah! 200km torps no more!" and "other short range ammo got a nerf" and stuff need to actually think about the weapon. Because missiles work in a very different way to guns, you rarely pick a missile type for range. You pick it for applications in your gang and what size/number of opponents you are likely to face. E.g. even though void got slapped with a nerf, there will still be situations (plenty of situations, even) when you are likely to use it over AM. I know I will, being a t2 blaster pilot as well as a t2 seige pilot! Now, there is no reason to use Javs. They needed a nerf, but now there isnt a reason for them being in the game. Ergo, too far. How is that difficult to see? All modules, ships, weapons and ammo should have a (situational) use! T2 javelin torpedoes no longer have that, they are worse in every way to t1 (which already have great range) and to cruise. EDIT: also, stfu about megathron! Raven vs mega is, as Shin pointed out, reasonably rare in 1v1 anyway, and anyway, this is about Javelins! Megathron has signature higher than 400 anyway, so you would always use t1 torps on it, or possibly fire rages if think you can smash him before he deactivates his MWD. Your absolutely right about the situational use. I can think of one or two cases when someone might prefer to use a javelin torp, but 99.999% of the time they are worthless. I don't think CCP right now know what their purpose is either tho.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:03:00 - [101] Yeh, the nerf seems a bit extreme. I would of thought a range nerf, explosion radius nerf, and explosion velocity nerf would be of been alright. The problem with t2 javs is they hurt cruisers and frigs too much for a bs killing weapon. That's where they needed to be nerfed.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:08:00 - [102] Originally by: GrumpyCat Originally by: Gabriel Karade Raven, Siege II, 3x BCU II, Hammerhead II's Inv Field II's, XL C5-L with boost amp - yes I have fought this during testing with a good friend. ... Doesn't fit even with max fitting(assuming 3 inv field IIs and two PDS II). Even if the raven leaves two empty high slots and one empty mid slot. Here's the real kicker, try to get a tech 2 shield booster on a raven with tech 2 torps. Also match you drone damage to raven's weakest resist that being EM. Raven excels at one thing, kicking the crap out of NPCs with select a damage and the ability to deal the same damage at all ranges. Training for a raven for pvp is waste unless your doing small gang(3-5) and have dedicated tackler/webber. It fits just fine: 6x Siege II - 9925.2 MW/ 396 tf (weapon/adv. weapon upgs V) XL C5L, Boost Amp, 3x inv field - (500 Mw/ 170 tf) + (1 MW/ 50 tf) + 3x(1 MW/ 44tf) = 504 MW/ 352 tf Heavy Electrochmical Cap Booster - 1750 Mw/40 tf 3x BCU II, 1x Co Proc II, 1x Power Diag II - 3x(1 MW/40 tf) + (1 MW/ 0 tf) + 0 MW/20 tf = 5MW/ 140 tf Total usage = 12183.2 MW/ 928 tf Total available (max skills) = (9500 x1.25 x1.05) = 12468.75 Mw + (700x 1.25 x1.1) = 962.5 tf And yes it hurts like hell when facing it in Blasterthron, starting at 15km, dropping into Void L range at 2.6km, and coming out the other side with 33-50% structure remaining. Now consider Void L just lost 7% damage and tell me how you think the outcome alters... (That's me signing off, there is nothing more to be said) ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:23:00 - [103] To actually contribute to the topic, and get off the side-issue of Rages (which got a neat boost tbh) : 380 / 24 = 15.833 dps (Javs) 345 / 22 = 15.681 dps (Fury Cruise) That's not even 1% frickin' difference between Fury Cruise (225m exp radius after skills), which is completely pointless. So yeah, slap that 450 base damage back on Javs - at worst hit their flight time a little bit more, but it should be fine as is with a 33% damage reduction for cruisers as opposed to before. If you'd have to compromise, 430 is about as low as I'd go. That gives you the following versus cruisers : 161.25 / 24 = 6.71 dps vs cruisers (Javs) 230 / 22 = 10.45 dps vs cruisers (Fury Cruise) Looks right to me, tbh.
agent apple Syndicate Of Shadows	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:24:00 - [104] Nerf the range to 80km with max skill and drop damage a little but for the love of god dont take away the precision bonus it was just enough to allow torps to hit all BS for full damage as T1 dont. T2 ammo should not be getting damage reductions just as we get HP boosts or fights are just gonna end up "First one to run out of ammo loses" Balancing sure, nerfing no.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:27:00 - [105] Ugh. Just...ugh. I could've lived with the explosion radius hit, but a damage reduction, too? Javelins are what make a torp raven useful in the first place - normal torpedo flight time is just too freaking long. By the time T1 torps arrive (which will be the only useful torpedo type, now), it will be too late to matter in your average fight. Unlike other ships, the raven can't adjust range - it's too slow and lacks the slots, grid, and CPU to run a MWD. Even worse, with the combination of a damage nerf and an explosion radius nerf, they'll suck even for killing smaller ships. In short, there will be no reason to ever use javelin torps - they'll be useless against large ships and useless against small ships. This will make both types of tech II torpedos worthless; rage torpedos are already crap, and now javelins will be, too. Now both of the ships I fly will be **** in PvP; the hitpoint boost screws over low-DPS ships, removing the tempest's viability, and the javelin torpedo nerf makes the raven crap, too. Thanks, CCP. I'm getting closer and closer to cancelling my sub. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:43:00 - [106] Originally by: Testy Mctest They're basically cruise missiles with much more damage and an irrelevent drawback. No, they're not. Javelin torpedos DO NOT get the advantage of Guided Missile Precision. Quote: They're overpowered, so they've been nerfed. They needed it. I know, because I fly with multiple Ravens everytime I play, and they annihilate anything they hit; it's wrong that a battleship class ship can shoot everything from small to large with one kind of ammo. As opposed to not being able to kill smaller ships at all post-change? With the combination of the explosion radius nerf and the damage nerf, you might as well just use normal torpedos anyway. They'll be more effective and save you ISK. This change was stupid. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Xnmngerzompt	Posted - 2006.10.25 02:56:00 - [107] I was just about to start training Torp V too, looks like I dodged a bullet. Hopefully they will sober up and fix them and make them an attractive option again because nerfing something into pointlessness is just stupid.
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2006.10.25 05:57:00 - [108] Edited by: Zar Dim on 25/10/2006 06:03:15 Edited by: Zar Dim on 25/10/2006 06:00:14 Originally by: Yamaeda Rage vs BS (stationary): Before 675400/1000 = 270 Now 540400/600 = 360 buff vs bs = +33% (!) How's that "as useless as ever" and not a great buff? For starters try to get a grip of the issue first then respond. Ok, you pointed to me then now rages do 33% more damage to stationary targets! Well that's nice to know, but usually ships are moving when they try to hurt you. And for BS this mean speed around 150 m/s. Let's do some math: Rage Torp Damage: 540400/600100/150 = 240 T1 Torp Damage: 450400/400min[1,250/150] = 450 So T1 do almost twise(!) damage compared to rages. Now tell me genious will I EVER use rages? They still will shut down cap regen when i fit them. And will do less damage then T1, nice isn't it. Previously they at least do some damage to capital ships, but now they suck in this department too. Sometimes it's better to chew then to speak
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:09:00 - [109] Tbh, they only needed to nerf all torp range to about 50km on a raven and nerf the explosion radius a bit. It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:14:00 - [110] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 17:08:56 "Slightly" overpowered? :) Its about time that those things get in line with the other weapons. I would hope that they get a range reduction too, because they are meant to be SHORT RANGE weapons with that kind of damage. What about explosion velocity? Thats important. so how u got in close range with speed penalty? Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:38:00 - [111] Originally by: Tasty Burger Tbh, they only needed to nerf all torp range to about 50km on a raven and nerf the explosion radius a bit. Let me rephrase that. They should make t1 torps have about 40km range on a raven, 60km on javelin. Javelin would have all the other stats that t1 has except faster/lower flight time( enough to make 60km range), same explosion radius, but higher explosion velocity. No lower damage. It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:48:00 - [112] Edited by: Zixxa on 25/10/2006 06:48:31 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Ah so we've run out of arguments now have we? No, and main arg is you are paper tiger. Quote: What do you not understand about "Tried and tested"? Level of your tardness? Quote:* What do you not understand about "assumes both ships start stationary, sat 2.6km away"? (I didn't 'forget' about structure/armour on the Raven, I was illustrating the point of Kill times vs the tanked layer under perfect and completely unrealistic starting conditions for the Megathron to be in. You forgot about everythig except to chose best damage type for Raven. Quote: Any semi-intelligent Raven pilot knows a Megathron is armour tanked, and given it starts with base EXP resistance of 10% - should thus be throwing Bane torpedos at the tank. Please, left your delirium for a doctor. Even super intelligent pilot like me rarely know that next ship in encouter will be Mega. And too many armour tanked ships taked against explosive Quote: At less than 15km, for comparable skills, the Megathron wins, barely surviving on structure. At greater than 15km the extra damage taken spells doom for the Megathron - it's that simple, and it's not as if it isn't well known (apart from in this thread apparently), it's been tested enough on TQ and Sisi. Test it now in REAL ENCOUNTER. Solo Mega will ALWAYS RUN AWAY having bad distance and ALWAYS KILL torp RAVEN having right distance. Torp solo Raven CAN KILL OLY COMPLETELY RETARDED Mega pilot. Feel the difference.
John Phalanx	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:57:00 - [113] Edited by: John Phalanx on 25/10/2006 06:57:34 I dont Understand why the mega hast to be better at close range than a raven is it written in some kind of eve law book that megathorns cannot lose 1 vs 1 and if they do its becouse the other ships is overpowerd?
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.10.25 07:08:00 - [114] Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 25/10/2006 07:09:11 Originally by: Nybbas to everyone else disagreeing with him, congrats on being wrong. And to all you javelin torp users... cry more please. My only regret is that I wasn't able to use this overpowered weapon type a little bit more on my caldari alt before it was nerfed. You sir, master the art of argument, nub The result is that every raven user will either fly the nighthawk or the drake until they got their skills trained up for using turrets. Gonna be nice to see all the diversity on the battlefields, like rokhs and megathrons, and megathrons and rokhs and perhaps a m-strom sometimes. .. my iskies anyways
Anatolli Korenchken AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2006.10.25 08:14:00 - [115] Edited by: Anatolli Korenchken on 25/10/2006 08:15:39 Edited by: Anatolli Korenchken on 25/10/2006 08:15:06 Hmm, Jav Torp distance reduced by a half, and BE raven targetting range also reduced by half (due to new WCS changes). Still seems like a viable setup at 125km range (dampener range). Didn't CCP say they wanted combat to be closer in? Too bad for that other javelin nerf though, yes I think they are over doing it a bit in the current build, but remember these stats can and probably will change. --------------- Computer: HULL BREACH. Core implosion imminent. Controller: "SH*T! Prime the escape pod now! Commander! Commander what are your orders!" Commander: "Deploy the Gummy Bears."
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:54:00 - [116] Zixxa stop being a tard, do you have to litter every post with insults? Most smart Raven pilots carry a mix of damage types seen as they loose no DPS for using Explosive over for example EM. It works out exactly as I stated, not my problem you can't accept the facts of the matter. In perfect conditions (ignoring misses due to tracking, ignoring time spent MWD'ing to target) the Megathron wins, however it just got a 7% nerf to damage, so you as a torpedo Raven pilot have nothing to complain about. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:56:00 - [117] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/10/2006 17:07:52 "Slightly" overpowered? :) Its about time that those things get in line with the other weapons. I would hope that they get a range reduction too, because they are meant to be SHORT RANGE weapons with that kind of damage. I would like to repeat for you "Torpedo t2 Raven is almost crap." use it only in small gangs having excellent commander. With latest changes torpedo t2 Raven does not exist at all as warship. You have to be absolutely insane to believe your own words. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:59:00 - [118] Originally by: Leandro Salazar I cry as a mission-*****, not as Caldari. In fact I hate Caldari but I love ISK and Jav torps were great for multiplying the contents of my wallet :P I am sorry but the raven breaks PVP combat from the aspect that you can make insane amounts isk from PVE off low skill investment. Welcome again... to EVE. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:59:00 - [119] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Most smart Raven pilots carry a mix of damage types seen as they loose no DPS for using Explosive over for example EM. Yea - But 10 sec for reload. - difficult to guess how BS is tanked. FYI, in real duel encounter blaster Mega > torp Raven.
El Yatta Caldari Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:00:00 - [120] Gabriel Karde and Zixxa, have you quite finished talking utter crap about the entirely irrelivant Mega Vs Raven ''issue'' (its so not an issue) in this thread about JAVELIN TORPEDOES - these do not apply to the megathron! Mega has a base sig higher than 400! Congratulations! You are pointless! Please do not drag this thread off topic more! I am using a lot of exclamations! Javelins are the worst butchered of the T2 ammo changes, but hail, null, void and all other short ranges seem to be displaying all kinds of values, and as tux said in a Hail-related thread that he hadnt updated more t2 ammo changes (recent) yet, its worth waiting to see. What has been done to long ranged ammo might be good, I havent tested it yet but I like a small range nerf off of Trem/Spike/Aurora and removal of shield penalty from Javelin hybrid. ---\|\|---
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:03:00 - [121] Originally by: Kaylana Syi I would like to repeat for you "Torpedo t2 Raven is almost crap." use it only in small gangs having excellent commander. With latest changes torpedo t2 Raven does not exist at all as warship. You have to be absolutely insane to believe your own words. It is just because your pitiful alliance doesn't know what is real fleet battle. When you will get some lessons from the Real Alliances you will also understand why torp raven is bull**, cruise raven is even bigger bull**. But without javelin torp t2 raven is completely useless, cruise t2 raven will do it job much better in every aspect.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:05:00 - [122] Edited by: Butter Dog on 25/10/2006 10:06:04 Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Gabriel Karade Most smart Raven pilots carry a mix of damage types seen as they loose no DPS for using Explosive over for example EM. Yea - But 10 sec for reload. - difficult to guess how BS is tanked. FYI, in real duel encounter blaster Mega > torp Raven. As anyone who has fought torp ravens regularly in a Blasterthron will tell you, THAT IS NOT TRUE. A well setup Raven can tank the DPS of a blasterthron long enough to break the blasterthrons own tank. Its actually nearly always a close-run thing. If you have been losing Ravens to Blasterthrons regularly you need to go to fitting school. In my own 1v1's with Torp Ravens, if they are well setup and using explosive torps on my EANM II/DC based tank, I nearly always lose if the fight starts at over 15km. Which nearly ALL solo fights do unless you have a covert ops alt. Plus when you MWD over to them, you will ALWAYS overshoot slightly and you are getting zero DPS with your blasters while he is hitting you for MAX DAMAGE from the very start. Honestly, get a clue.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:10:00 - [123] In the above fight though, if you were really engaged by that raven at 15km. You could mwd away from it and warp away. So the raven can tank/gank the mega. The mega gets to choose if it fights or not. The inherant disadvantage of caldari is if you setup to pwn other things solo, you have almost no way to hold them down in reality.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:12:00 - [124] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio In the above fight though, if you were really engaged by that raven at 15km. You could mwd away from it and warp away. So the raven can tank/gank the mega. The mega gets to choose if it fights or not. The inherant disadvantage of caldari is if you setup to pwn other things solo, you have almost no way to hold them down in reality. Yeah, the Raven isnt a great solo PvP ship. Thats true. But its the KING of solo PvE, which the mega absolutely sucks at. Its called balance. No ship should be the King of All Things in EVE.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:19:00 - [125] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio In the above fight though, if you were really engaged by that raven at 15km. You could mwd away from it and warp away. So the raven can tank/gank the mega. The mega gets to choose if it fights or not. The inherant disadvantage of caldari is if you setup to pwn other things solo, you have almost no way to hold them down in reality. Yeah, the Raven isnt a great solo PvP ship. Thats true. Wow, you have to agree? I do not believe. Also Raven is bull** in fleet battles. Quote:** But its the KING of solo PvE, which the mega absolutely sucks at. Who cares about PvE? Mission runners in empire? And I know few other kings of PvE, including Dominix, command ships, HACs, etc.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:20:00 - [126] Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 25/10/2006 10:21:27 Zixxa your last 4 posts are completely useless crap. Stop posting. He was talking about PvP in the non fleet battle sense. Not all of eve is huge 100+ man laggy node crashing battles. There's actually another part of eve that we enjoy, the smaller gang versus gang type of combat.
Kenneys	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:21:00 - [127] I just recently finished training for T2 torpedos. From looking at the stats of javelin missiles alone, i thought it would be a superb weapon, hence i spent a whole month training for it. (I'm only a 3 month old noob) And then i tried to fit those things.. Hmm.. ate up all my powergrids..and i have rank 4 for all the +CPUS/PGS. Ok, add in +CPU and + Powergrid modules. Time to fit some shields so i can tank... fit fit Hmm i'm out of cpu and powergrid again.. Time to put on more +cpu and +grid modules. Hmm.. ok no space to fit anything else on lowerslots. So i went out, and tested it. WOW! It did great damage on battlecruisers! I popped em fast! Dang!!! For cruisers... nope. Cruise missiles did more dps (due to free low slots). For frigates... Cruisers and T2 torps did about the same.. (which is almost negligible.. drones and smartbombs are the only efficient way to kill em) For battleships.. T2 torps does the same damage as normal torps. Cruise missiles come pretty close due to the +dmg/rof modules. After a week of trying it out... it dawned on me that i completely wasted one month of training time, and 80+ mil isk.. T1 cruise missiles are so much better to use: Much lower CPU/PG usage allows you to mount +dmg/+rof on the lowslots; More CPU/PG lets you make a better tank; Cruise missiles hit just as far as T2 torps. Basically all T2 torps have over cruise missiles is kill battlecruisers faster. And for that, you have all sorts of drawbacks. All in all, like many other caldaris out there, i find that torpedos look great on paper.. but in practise, cruise missiles are much better. I just wish that i didn't spent a whole month training them up.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:23:00 - [128] You forget that they kill BS faster. It's kind of a big difference.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:23:00 - [129] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio In the above fight though, if you were really engaged by that raven at 15km. You could mwd away from it and warp away. So the raven can tank/gank the mega. The mega gets to choose if it fights or not. The inherant disadvantage of caldari is if you setup to pwn other things solo, you have almost no way to hold them down in reality. Yeah, the Raven isnt a great solo PvP ship. Thats true. Wow, you have to agree? I do not believe. Also Raven is bull** in fleet battles. Quote:** But its the KING of solo PvE, which the mega absolutely sucks at. Who cares about PvE? Mission runners in empire? And I know few other kings of PvE, including Dominix, command ships, HACs, etc. Well 100% of the playerbase PvE's at some point. And the Raven is the perfect ship for it, hell even I trained 3 weeks to use a Raven for PvE and it does better than my Mega which I have been training for over a year. The Raven is amazing ship in small gangs. It will always have a place in PvP. But Javelins were ridiculous and needed a change. Bascially, stop talking, because you are embaressing yourself.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:29:00 - [130] Originally by: Jim McGregor ... but is it fair that they should have very high damage and very high range because of it? That is not the problem of missiles but the Raven. Raven has bonuses in ROF and missile velocity. If Raven has bonuses in ROF and damage, torps would be low range weapons and cruises high range weapons. If so, cruises need more buff in velocity to longer distance with flight time. You can introduce new mods to increase more missile speed for extended range for cruise missiles and torps. Other races have no problem in missiles because they do not have velocity bonus. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Pax Caldaria.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:30:00 - [131] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio You forget that they kill BS faster. It's kind of a big difference. In SMALL gang encounters. In AVERAGE/BIG gang encounters Raven is crap.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:30:00 - [132] Well, if CCP wanted to give the raven a damage bonus instead of missle velocity, I definately wouldn't be mad.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:32:00 - [133] Didn't I tell you to stop posting in 10 different threads already? Yes, yes, you said the same thing again. Raven's are crap in large fleet battles. No one cares. That's not a problem with the raven, its a problem with missles in general. Caldari can train for the rokh if they want to be part of the wonderful pvp world of the lagfest we call fleet battles.
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:35:00 - [134] Originally by: Butter Dog Yeah, the Raven isnt a great solo PvP ship. Thats true. But its the KING of solo PvE, which the mega absolutely sucks at. Its called balance. No ship should be the King of All Things in EVE. according to your answers in my thread before - raven is insane solo pvp ship with rage torpedoes and immensive tank.. u don't agree? Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:36:00 - [135] Originally by: Butter Dog Well 100% of the playerbase PvE's at some point. But who cares about PvE after few months? Who? It is easy on any ship. Quote: And the Raven is the perfect ship for it, hell even I trained 3 weeks to use a Raven for PvE and it does better than my Mega which I have been training for over a year. Oh, try to use Dominix. It's at least as good as Raven for PvE. Quote: But Javelins were ridiculous and needed a change. Javelins was not so useful(you don't know why, but just believe). They generate good damage, was dangerous for small ships, etc. But cruise missiles were only slightly worse against battleships and better than javelins against cruiser-size and lesser ships. After nerf javelins are useless everywhere, because cruise t2 outperforms javelins in every aspect of the battle.
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:38:00 - [136] Originally by: Zixxa Oh, try to use Dominix. It's at least as good as Raven for PvE. not so good.. but don't need ammo Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:39:00 - [137] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Didn't I tell you to stop posting in 10 different threads already? I am ingoring you. Quote: Yes, yes, you said the same thing again. Raven's are crap in large fleet battles. No one cares. That's not a problem with the raven, its a problem with missles in general. Caldari can train for the rokh if they want to be part of the wonderful pvp world of the lagfest we call fleet battles. Yes, you are right. 70-90 days of traing for t2 hybrids and you have chance to be helpful in fleet battle.
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:41:00 - [138] Yes, so why are you posting still?
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:54:00 - [139] Please stay on topic, that's about javelins. They are nerfed to such extent that right now there is absolutly no incenitive to use T2 Torps, and hence launchers. With upcoming rigs, it's much easier to fit 15% damage bonus rig on cruises and don't use Torps at all. On the PVP you have to use T1 torps but once again given fix to fury cruises (now they are at least useful), it looks like fury cruises will have higher dps then torps (taking rigs in to the picture)
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:56:00 - [140] I think we can all agree the t2 jav nerf is an overnerf. At the same time we all can agree that javs are overpowered currently. I hope tux tries to find the middleground to nerf them to, instead of the current extreme.
Lord Augustus	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:05:00 - [141] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio Yeah, the Raven isnt a great solo PvP ship. Thats true. But its the KING of solo PvE, which the mega absolutely sucks at. Its called balance. No ship should be the King of All Things in EVE. Except the domi
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:29:00 - [142] OK, let's drop the mega vs raven smackety smack. It's offtopic. Javelins were good before. They had more velocity (thus range), better explosion velocity, better explosion radius. This made them a good solid PvP weapon - there's a fair few <400m sig BS out there, and every cruiser you'd do a bit more damage than a 'normal' torp. Ceptors you could give pain to, but only in the situations where turrets would also give them pain. E.g. MWD on, and not moving fast enough. You could just about scratch the paintwork with MWD off. However, that basically made them in all ways better than t1 torps. I mean, speed loss? Irritating, but no more on a BS. But having a torp that's bigger, better and faster ... well 's a no brainer really, isn't it? I think this change has gone a bit too far the other way. Now, there's not a lot of situations where you'd use javelin torps over 'normal' torps, or cruise missiles. Much like rages in fact - yes, they're great if you have a huginn on your wing, but ... well if you've got a huginn pilot, just get 'em in another BS and do even more damage. I suppose they do permit a 'full gank' raven fit, of painters, BCS and rage, but when you have to paint a ship to 700m to break even, and it's still got worse velocity ... That said, whilst I think this change removes a lot of the reasons to use T2 ammo, I'm also of the opinion that T2 ammo was just too good. When you have 'options' that a T1 fitted ship does not, you end up with (IMO at least) game breaking behaviour. T2 should be good. This is fine. T2 weapons are better than their top end T1 equivalents - same stats, spec bonus, but trade off is harder fittings. That's all good in my book. When you have stuff that utterly outclasses T1 though, in a 'use T2 or you lose' sense, then there starts to be a problem. If I have torps 5, and T2 launchers I'm already better than a corpmate with torps 4 and arby launchers. This situation is even worse with the 'ultra-snipe' ammo, since at least javelin torps had flight time to worry about (and the old problem of start firing at 200km, and they'll be gone before you hit). I wouldn't be too sad to see T2 ammo gone entirely, or at least severely re-thought as to what it's intended to do. IMO 'new capabilities' is bad. More interesting/versatile is fine. Personally, I'd go with giving javelin torps exactly the same stats as a cruise missile. No additional damage or anything. And no 'guided missile precision' either. (Although it'd be nice). Then they become worth using - you don't have more power, but what you do have is more versatility - you can 'swap' to cruise missile grade firepower. Of course, your T2 sieges also are harder to fit, and have a worse RoF than a 'normal' cruise launcher, but that's a reasonable tradeoff. If this were done, then they'd be usable and useful. In fights where you 'needed cruise' you'd fit cruise, because they'd just be better. (And you can still do precision/fury/FoF as you need, which you wouldn't be able to do with siege launchers).
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:15:00 - [143] Good post, James! Look at torpedos closer. It is just some kind of trash compared to cruise missile.(Of course, few exceptions exist ) But with javeline it may be useful! Of course, no tank, no NOS, little of protection, difficult fitting, PvP only, etc. But useful. If you are nerfing javeline, you are killing torpedo as weapon.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:19:00 - [144] this is just retarded. Raven will do more dps with rage assault missiles than it does with torps. WANT TO SWAP TORP SKILL TO ASSAULT MISSILE SKILL!
Goca Minmatar Steel Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:59:00 - [145] sooo happy I spent all this time on torpedo skills.. coolness. so basically I just wasted how many months getting all the relevant skills up so I can actually do a little PVP with a ship I like and lo and behold these idiots nerf it.. yeah, overpowered my ass.. always fun watching snipers sit out 200km from a gate, you shoot at them and wait for your torps to finally reach them just as they warp off, all the while they are dealing instant damage to you.. it would be nice if they give some prior warning when they do **headed stuff like this, you know "btw jav torps and Ravens will be bloody useless don't train the pieces of **".. ahh well the whiners got their way, as usual, hopefully the lag whiners also get their way... I is Goca
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:39:00 - [146] Originally by: Goca sooo happy I spent all this time on torpedo skills.. coolness. so basically I just wasted how many months getting all the relevant skills up so I can actually do a little PVP with a ship I like and lo and behold these idiots nerf it.. yeah, overpowered my ass.. always fun watching snipers sit out 200km from a gate, you shoot at them and wait for your torps to finally reach them just as they warp off, all the while they are dealing instant damage to you.. it would be nice if they give some prior warning when they do **headed stuff like this, you know "btw jav torps and Ravens will be bloody useless don't train the pieces of **".. ahh well the whiners got their way, as usual, hopefully the lag whiners also get their way... No. You still get: 5% more damage Torp spec (6% more RoF within a day or two, 8% within a week or so) T2 sieges (on a par with arbalests + some capacity + the spec skill) Citadel torps prereq. Much like you got on Large hybrid 5, before they brought in the T2 ammo. Only without the capital prereqs, because they didn't exist either. People still found it worthy. Oh, and did I mention, that T2 large guns takes around 80 days training, where T2 torps are half that. Even without T2 ammo, T2 weapons are good options. Long on training time, but very potent.
Spaced Skunk Yesodic Nomads Corp	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:04:00 - [147] Edited by: Spaced Skunk on 25/10/2006 17:03:53 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/10/2006 17:10:55 I wont mind a range reduction at all, but please leave the damage and exp radius alone. They don't nerf Barrage or Null into oblivion either, why do it to Javs? Either nerf em all or nerf none. And I only really use missiles in PvE, and there explosion velocity is meaningless. Javelin torpedos should be fast and long ranged I think, with a choice of; 450 dmg/Same Precision 380 dmg/More Precision You mention barrage and null (which is essential a kind of precision ammo when compared to missiles), and you know, they dont have the same damage as EMP or Antimatter, they have less, and it should be consistent with the missiles.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:05:00 - [148] Without t2 ammo best choice not t2(even if skills allow), but Arbalest. Easier to fit. Usually either better damage(additional BCS) or better tank. Period.
Goca Minmatar Steel Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:31:00 - [149] Originally by: Zosimos Sabina Ravens were awesome before Javelin torps, and they'll be awesome even without uber Javelin torps. The sky is not falling, get over it. lol, yeah "uber" torpedoes gfy I is Goca

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