Originally by: EnglishBob

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Eve-Mail, Manfred. The last thing these forum needs is another 200 BoB/Ascn 'you suck', 'No you suck' posts.

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Originally by: Voltron

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The post is nice, constructive and fairly to the point, however you probably should have left it at signing Avernus's post and sent Cyvok an eve-mail.

Volt

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Originally by: Manfred Sideous

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Originally by: Voltron

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The post is nice, constructive and fairly to the point, however you probably should have left it at signing Avernus's post and sent Cyvok an eve-mail.

Volt

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Probably right mate. I just felt compelled to write this post after having mud slung at my alliance and othe innocent entities. In all honesty is was a "Yo back the F off " post in a sublte yet polite way.

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Originally by: Manfred Sideous

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[
But yet FIX MC XELAS and others are called BOB lapdogs.

---

Originally by: Xianthar

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http://www.celestial-horizon.net/standings/standings.php

your -5.0

---

Originally by: w0rmy

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If your bite was as big as your bark, id say 'OMG Cyvok ya in trouble now!!'

But since it isnt, lollercopterorlmaoskates.

---

Originally by: Blacklight

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WTS shovels for digging bigger holes.

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Originally by: McMike

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Fix once had an small empire. Independent and proud.

Look at you now. Defending the people that slaughtered you into submission and now control and tax your alliance. Grow some nuts and take back what is yours back.

---

Originally by: McMike

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Fix once had an small empire. Independent and proud.

Look at you now. Defending the people that slaughtered you into submission and now control and tax your alliance. Grow some nuts and take back what is yours back.

---

Originally by: Goberth Ludwig

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Damn what happens to all those people whose self esteem doesnt depend on eve then?

Oh right, I'm asking in the wrong place

---

Originally by: Adhamhnon

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As to "attacking Xelas" and such, I refer you to the allaince territorial map.

http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/CRII/Latest.jpg

I didn't see any posts from Xelas debating the fact that they own fountain and not BoB, so a station in fountain would be a fair target would it not?

---

Originally by: Qual

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If you want an accurate map I recomend using the ingame map to see WHO is claiming WHAT. From that you would clearly see Xelas, MC, The Horde, Storm Armada and FIX claims in what the alliance map sets as "BoB" space.

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Originally by: Sharcy

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So when Molle said of Querious "Nice region, we'll take it", what he actually meant was "Nice region, we'll tell Joshua Foiritain to color it blue for BoB, but we won't actually do anything with it, it's still Fix's"? Come on now...

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

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Originally by: Xianthar

---

http://www.celestial-horizon.net/standings/standings.php

your -5.0

---

A small question for the ACSN folks.

You've got your hands full with BoB, obviously: they're tough opponents.

If so, why in the hell are you trying **** off FIX into attacking you? Do you think its easier to fight two alliances at once than to just fight one? It still doesn't make sense to me.

---

Originally by: Guma

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: Xianthar

---

http://www.celestial-horizon.net/standings/standings.php

your -5.0

---

A small question for the ACSN folks.

You've got your hands full with BoB, obviously: they're tough opponents.

If so, why in the hell are you trying **** off FIX into attacking you? Do you think its easier to fight two alliances at once than to just fight one? It still doesn't make sense to me.

---

it's easier to fight anything but BoB

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Originally by: Dianabolic

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Those words were never uttered in the direction of Querious, please try again.

---

Originally by: XoPhyte

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Edited by: XoPhyte on 26/10/2006 23:44:50
Until you see Cyvok himself call those alliances or corporations "lapdogs" as you reference, then I would not go so far as to say the comments of some pilots in our alliance speak for Cyvok. We have 5000 members in our alliance, we cannot control their opinions or what they say.

Until someone with authority in our alliance (which is not me btw) says these remarks, then this topic is pointless.

And eve-mail > eve-o

---

Originally by: "Cyvok, Spin This thread official announcment"

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Xelas, you need not die as slaves to BoB anylonger, now is your chance to make new friends.

BoB Meat Shield 0, ASCN 1.

---

Originally by: Stamm

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Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing

Originally by: Galavet

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w0rmy, Your the last person in Eve who should be talking about your bite being as big as your bark. Your nothing more than your fourm smack.

---

Originally by: Sharcy

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Originally by: Dianabolic

---

Those words were never uttered in the direction of Querious, please try again.

---

ORLY?

(You actually had me doubting my memory there for a sec, he even mentions you as the guy to speak to, heh...)

---

Quote:

---

Your ignorance of the situation only makes you look more desperate to try and drive that wedge in.

---

Originally by: Seleene

---

Have you actually read that post or understand the events that were happening at the time? Exactly how many FIX do you see in the opening pages of that thread? Maybe the statement was directed toward someone else?

---

Originally by: Gungankllr

---

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and the friend of my enemy is my enemy.

From a "Joe Nobody" standpoint, I'd say that is one of the major motivations in this fight.

In every conflict I've ever fought in, just putting "Friend to XXXX" has been enough to make you KOS.

I have the unique perspective of having been in both FIX and BoB at different times in my somewhat lengthy Eve history, although not everyone will remember me.

I know things change, when I was in BoB running in the northern territories, Xelas got poked at in gang/teamspeak for being completely worthless in fights unless they were sitting on a gate shooting people that came through.

I've talked to one or two Xelas guys about it that were willing to have a chat and not smack me in local, and in their eyes BoB treats them as important equals.

Like I said, things may have changed, as I haven't been in BoB for quite some time.

As for FIX, I was on the other side of the fence when BoB invaded the first time, felt weird to shoot at friends, but hey, it's a game.

My old corp Hadean Drive Yards left FIX a bit after the conflict pretty much winded down, and man... I don't think I've ever been prouder of an accomplishment when I found out from a buddy still in FIX that they were launching an outpost (I think it was their first?)

When I heard BoB popped their egg, I thought for sure it would be World War III from now until eternity.

But hey, things change.

After everything that has happened over the last several months, it's hard for me reconcile feeling pity or sadness for people that choose to ally themselves with BoB when they get involved in fighting.

A guy in Xelas made a post that rather moved me, about us taking their outpost.

I can tell he cares as much about his space as we do. But his alliance chooses to be friends or allies with the strongest PVP force in Eve.

I'm sorry you lost your outpost, but it's a casualty of war. You picked your side of the fence, which team you wanted to be on, and that's that.

I don't think that anyone in ASCN wants to keep your outpost, although Serpentis NPC's would be a cool change.

The bottom line is it opens up a second front to move into BoB space from, a second staging area.

If you guys were neutral, or even hostile to BoB, I don't think I would be typing this post right now.

This is a war, you're going to lose ships, stations and clones.

Just like we are going to lose ships and clones. Okay, and maybe a station here or there.

I hold no grudge against FIX and Xelas.

From everything I've heard, BoB wants us gone. Dead. Destroyed. Minced. Chopped. Pureed.

If I have to take a Xelas station to make things harder for them to deal with, then so be it.

That's all I wanted to say about that.

This post in no way should be associated as an official response to your question, for I am just "Joe Nobody" in ASCN.

If you want an official response, wait for a HC or CEO or Alliance CEO to respond.

---

Originally by: Seleene

---

Edited by: Seleene on 27/10/2006 10:01:19

Originally by: Sharcy

---

Originally by: Dianabolic

---

Those words were never uttered in the direction of Querious, please try again.

---

ORLY?

(You actually had me doubting my memory there for a sec, he even mentions you as the guy to speak to, heh...)

---

Have you actually read that post or understand the events that were happening at the time? Exactly how many FIX do you see in the opening pages of that thread? Maybe the statement was directed toward someone else?

EDIT - Additionally, do you know who Marv is? If you don't then stop right now.

---

Originally by: Sharcy

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Originally by: Seleene

---

Have you actually read that post or understand the events that were happening at the time? Exactly how many FIX do you see in the opening pages of that thread? Maybe the statement was directed toward someone else?

---

I was still a specatator back then, but yeah, I read and think I understand most of it. I'm not saying BoB conquered Querious from FIX and enslaved them that way (I read "in the direction of" as "with regards to", so there may be some confusion here). All I'm saying is BoB have staked their claim on Querious, rather definitively. To the general public, as one of which I'm speaking here, the current situation at the very least makes it appear that FIX must dance to BoB's tune in order to keep their home. I realize there are plenty of nuances that could be made, but until BoB and FIX state that Querious is under the sole control of FIX again (and the "We took it" statement retracted), most people will just take it at face value.

---

Originally by: McMike

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As much you like to think otherwise, you have no control of your space if bob says otherwise.

---

Originally by: Avernus

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Thing is, for the most part we're perfectly fine with letting people keep their assumptions. FIX isn't remotely interested in seeing a 5 month old post retracted where BoB laid claim to the region of Querious. We didn't lose space due to BoB, we are afforded the ability to operate in Querious due to BoB.

---

Originally by: Kyguard

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Lame.

---

Originally by: Avernus

---

Don't get me wrong Sharcy, I know where your point of view comes from, and it is very common. FIX have been called people's lapdogs since before we even had the name FIX to go by. Name calling doesn't do much to us, we don't care for it, but public perception is only as powerful as you allow yourselves to make it. (At least in most circumstances and situations)

When perception crosses over into us being targetted however, we tend to get a little ticked, and will take the time to correct assumptions people may have made. When it persists, people end up creating self-fulfilling prophecy when we hunt them down and add them to the trophy case. It certainly doesn't correct the perception, but we feel better about it after.

---

Quote:

---

We didn't lose space due to BoB, we are afforded the ability to operate in Querious due to BoB.

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: McMike

---

As much you like to think otherwise, you have no control of your space if bob says otherwise.

---

Guess what. The same applies to every other alliance in EVE.

If BoB decides that, say, Lotka Volterra should no longer have their space, in a few months, Lotka Volterra would probably no longer have their space!

---

Originally by: Seleene

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: McMike

---

As much you like to think otherwise, you have no control of your space if bob says otherwise.

---

Guess what. The same applies to every other alliance in EVE.

If BoB decides that, say, Lotka Volterra should no longer have their space, in a few months, Lotka Volterra would probably no longer have their space!

---

I think that DS just made an incredibly pertinent statement.

---

Originally by: McMike

---

Quote:

---

2) Rise up and take back what is yours. I seriously doubt ASCN has anything against you (or Xelas) except for the fact that you chose to live under the flag of those that conquered you. You aid them even if via simple taxation.

---

BOB is one of the few entities that have been consistent with their policies and actions. That is somthing we value alot in FIX. They are stable and dependable as friends and as enemies. When BOB tells you their gonna bring it they do exactly that. WHen they say they got your back they do exactly that.


Also I woukld like to point out when BOB came into Querious to take it. They werent shooting FIX matter of factly we were flying alongside them. Which IMO was a nice gesture they let us get in on some teeth kicking after ours had taken some tough hits.


As far as BOB blowing up our outpost egg. It sucked but not to bad . That was the funnest day Ive ever had in Eve. We WTFPWN'd a CODA fleet then got WTFPWND by BOB. But we did it with class and style. LoL I lost 4 battleships 1 battlecruiser and 1 cruiser to BOB that day and it ROCKED.


Bottom line is BOB are FIX's friends something we are proud to admit. IMO it will be that way till their is no one left to shoot then im sure it will be WTFBBQ days again.

Originally by: Mauxir

---

I call it like I see it.

Your viewpoint is yours and yours alone and I can respect it. But the thing is you can think whatever you want at the end of the line you are in Querious because BoB allow you to be there.

As an alliance you are not the supreme authority in the space that you inhabit, you are no more than a buffer for BoB. If you are cool with that then great but don't come here and sell us complete crap about FIX being a stand alone alliance that does whatever it wants.

You can delude yourself for as long as you want but I think the picture is pretty clear for the community.

---

Originally by: darth solo

---

Originally by: Deamos

---

Honesty, I am interested and see where CELES was going with the neutral pilots bit. So....CELES with ASCN help now have Yoshimi... but what does this leave for the poor defenseless neutral? The whole idea of this conflict has switched from helping the little guy to striking at BoB and assisting ASCN in their little campaign. I know that ASCN isn't going to allow the so called innocent in docking at Yoshimi...So what gives CELES? You give up your little quest to become the lapdog of ASCN because you can't fight the big dog head on? Yes, I understand the whole enemy of my enemy is my friend bit, but why did you surrender Yoshimi to ASCN? Having a bit of the ol tucking the tail between your legs syndrome?

---

Thats a silly thing to say.. if anything wouldnt that make ASCN our lapdogs?. we ask for ASCNs help in taking down the POS network.. everyone knows that celes apoc have very little capital support.

XELAS only exist in fountain and have an outpost in fountain because of the backing of BOB, thats why u are a lapdogs. celes apoc does what we want and exist thru pure PVP ability.

ASCN get involved in a easy victory which celes apoc done all the hard work in, and we get rid of the hiding place of XS.

thats win win for ASCN and celes apoc.

ASCN wont be engaging corps with "friends of celes apoc" in the description.. we said we would defend these corps and we always do what we say.

d solo.

---

Quote:

---

You're right btw... you are a nobody, you've fully demonstrated that you know frigging squat about when you are talking about FIX.

---

Originally by: Avernus

---

Mauxir,
Perhaps the difference is that we have a completely different viewpoint of our relationship with BoB than the majority of Eve does? Think about it for a few minutes.

Originally by: McMike

---

Quote:

---

We didn't lose space due to BoB, we are afforded the ability to operate in Querious due to BoB.

---

OMG!

I'm just a nobody but let me get this straight.

FIX once held Querious as an independent alliance.
Suddenly, your telling us that BOB has given you the ability to operate in Querious without losing space. That defies all logic.

More accurately, they beat you down and you were forced to take their terms. Now, here you are pretending to be confused as to why your losing the odd ship. As this war is unfolding, it seems to me that FIX has two options.

1) Live in denial as slaves in Querious. Hey, they probably don't whip you but who really runs the show in Querious? Honestly.

2) Rise up and take back what is yours. I seriously doubt ASCN has anything against you (or Xelas) except for the fact that you chose to live under the flag of those that conquered you. You aid them even if via simple taxation.

---

McMike,

Your history of the events surrounding FIX's loss of Querious.... is pure ass. I'll break it down for you really quick here. FIX was fighting CODA: SA, Huzzah, Smash, Imperium, and a few others; over the course of months. We were down to 1 station, 9CG; half of FIX had just left and we had 450 pilots left. We were out of isk, out of ships, and getting ready to bail from 9CG to go rebuild elsewhere in preperation for our return.

/queue BoB

BoB comes in, and kicks the living crap out of CODA, who splinter and leave Querious faster than a politician from a burning *****house. FIX, didn't suddenly have a magical reserve of ships, isk or members; do you honestly think we were in a position to hold space at that point?? Seriously???

Now, what options does that leave FIX?
- Say 'Mine! Gimmie back!'
- Say 'You keep it, we're taking off to empire'
- Say 'We accept your proposal'

I'm not handing out details on the proposal, except that it should be common knowledge at this point that FIX found it to be extremely favorable.

You're right btw... you are a nobody, you've fully demonstrated that you know frigging squat about when you are talking about FIX.

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

You don't get it do you. If they needed your help vs ASCN you can bet your ass you would be there helping them because they control the space you live in. They "own" you.

Since they didn't need you, you were excused and had the permission to go play somewhere else. All I'm saying is that its hard to make a transition from a horse to a donkey and it seems to me you are still adjusting.

Its no shame being a lapdog but it is a shame that you don't see it.

---

Originally by: thoth foc

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

You don't get it do you. If they needed your help vs ASCN you can bet your ass you would be there helping them because they control the space you live in. They "own" you.

Since they didn't need you, you were excused and had the permission to go play somewhere else. All I'm saying is that its hard to make a transition from a horse to a donkey and it seems to me you are still adjusting.

Its no shame being a lapdog but it is a shame that you don't see it.

---

translation:

"Dear FIX,

I understand you better than u understand yourself, I have decided that my opinion is obviously correct, so although you may think you actually make decisions, i really make them for you. I dont believe you have enough honour to help a friend if they actually needed it, rather i have formulated a 'good' reason. Please accept my logic as absolute law, further free thought will result in more forum bashing and insults.

yours,
Mauxir"

---

Originally by: McMike

---

Quote:

---

You're right btw... you are a nobody, you've fully demonstrated that you know frigging squat about when you are talking about FIX.

---

Popping your new outpost was a sign of BOB love?
Do you now pay taxes to BOB in station that were once yours?
Who makes the final call on what goes on in former FIX space?

Your slaves of BOB.

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Originally by: thoth foc

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

You don't get it do you. If they needed your help vs ASCN you can bet your ass you would be there helping them because they control the space you live in. They "own" you.

Since they didn't need you, you were excused and had the permission to go play somewhere else. All I'm saying is that its hard to make a transition from a horse to a donkey and it seems to me you are still adjusting.

Its no shame being a lapdog but it is a shame that you don't see it.

---

translation:

"Dear FIX,

I understand you better than u understand yourself, I have decided that my opinion is obviously correct, so although you may think you actually make decisions, i really make them for you. I dont believe you have enough honour to help a friend if they actually needed it, rather i have formulated a 'good' reason. Please accept my logic as absolute law, further free thought will result in more forum bashing and insults.

yours,
Mauxir"

---

Copied that from the BoB forum squad instruction manual?

---

Quote:

---

Now the alliance page hasn't been updated since 2006.07.14, but your illustrious corporation doesn't even seem to be on there?

So you have the balls to come on here and take shots at my alliance, when your own alliance doesn't own it's own space, and lives in somebody elses? Why do I get the oddest feeling you're going to hear from fellow Alliance members today in regards to Eve-O forum posting habits?

Sucks to be you.

---

Originally by: Avernus

---

Originally by: Taz Devlin

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I have fought FIX on several occasions, and at no time have you managed to survive without your caretaker, so in all honesty, yes, you are lapdogs.

---

How's SA doing? ....or Coalition? oh.. right.

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Originally by: Taz Devlin

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Regardless of how any other entity is doing, you guys are lapdogs.

---

Originally by: Scifa

---

Originally by: Taz Devlin

---

Regardless of how any other entity is doing, you guys are lapdogs.

---

Agreed.

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: Scifa

---

Originally by: Taz Devlin

---

Regardless of how any other entity is doing, you guys are lapdogs.

---

Agreed.

---

Wow, how bitter.

Maybe we'd pay attention if these comments were made by someone who didn't lose the war they're commenting on.

Come back and take Querious from us, then maybe we'll stop ignoring you.

---

Originally by: Mauxir

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Querious is not yours.

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 27/10/2006 14:05:38

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Querious is not yours.

---

Then why do we have more sovereignty over it than everyone else in EVE combined?

Oh wait, because its our region. Duh. Wow you people are dense. This aint rocket science, folks.

---

Originally by: Goberth Ludwig

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Damn what happens to all those people whose self esteem doesnt depend on eve then?

Oh right, I'm asking in the wrong place

---

Originally by: NATMav

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 27/10/2006 14:05:38

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Querious is not yours.

---

Then why do we have more sovereignty over it than everyone else in EVE combined?

Oh wait, because its our region. Duh. Wow you people are dense. This aint rocket science, folks.

---

Then claim it on the map.

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: NATMav

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 27/10/2006 14:05:38

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Querious is not yours.

---

Then why do we have more sovereignty over it than everyone else in EVE combined?

Oh wait, because its our region. Duh. Wow you people are dense. This aint rocket science, folks.

---

Then claim it on the map.

---

We do claim it on the map.

Go into your game, hit F10, and turn on "all factions and alliances" in the sovereignty screen.

Or is that too hard?

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Originally by: Mauxir

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Have you been drinking your **** again?

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Have you been drinking your **** again?

---

This kind of comment is proof that you have no logical arguments left at all

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: Mauxir

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Have you been drinking your **** again?

---

This kind of comment is proof that you have no logical arguments left at all

---

Yep just like you have no region left.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Have you been drinking your **** again?

---

This kind of comment is proof that you have no logical arguments left at all

---

Yep just like you have no region left.

---

All talk, no action. Either shut up, or come to Querious and show that you're willing to back your words with action.

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

You could have used that fighting spirit before BoB bent you over and had their way with you.

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

You could have used that fighting spirit before BoB bent you over and had their way with you.

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Maybe we'd pay attention if these comments were made by someone who didn't lose the war they're commenting on.

---

Originally by: DB Preacher

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

You could have used that fighting spirit before BoB bent you over and had their way with you.

---

That is highly amusing coming from someone who we actually did bend over and spank.

How is SA these days? Oh yeah, you don't exist.

amusing.

dbp

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Better to die than become one of your lackeys. At least we went down fighting unlike some.

Some like to be *****es other dont. Simple as that.

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

We do claim it on the map.

Go into your game, hit F10, and turn on "all factions and alliances" in the sovereignty screen.

It isn't that hard, folks

---

Originally by: DB Preacher

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Better to die than become one of your lackeys. At least we went down fighting unlike some.

Some like to be *****es other dont. Simple as that.

---

Not really.

SA hid and ran after we arrived in Stain.
CODA split up after three days.

FIX fought BoB for at least 3 months head on when we initially arrived in the south. They never hid, they never ran.

They then fought you and the rest of CODA bandwagon for a looooong time.

So no just even attempt to pretend you are anything compared to FIX, because you are not.

You are a relic of the past, bitter from your defeats throwing rocks in a glass house with no actual ability to back your words up.

dbp

---

Quote:

---

Go into your game, hit F10, and turn on "all factions and alliances" in the sovereignty screen.

It isn't that hard, folks

---

Originally by: Audrea

---

This is a nice summary for the uninformed.. except where you called us cowards that splinter and ran etc...
We gave a good fight to BoB there, and only reason we slowly failed to hold the ground, was failure at logistics level: getting new ships and replacements wasnt organized, the forces were loosing coherence etc.
Anyway its a long story and off topic, but try not to make it look as if we ran like cowards, unless you want to start a flame fest, I am sure it can be arranged

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Originally by: DB Preacher

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Better to die than become one of your lackeys. At least we went down fighting unlike some.

Some like to be *****es other dont. Simple as that.

---

Not really.

SA hid and ran after we arrived in Stain.
CODA split up after three days.

FIX fought BoB for at least 3 months head on when we initially arrived in the south. They never hid, they never ran.

They then fought you and the rest of CODA bandwagon for a looooong time.

So no just even attempt to pretend you are anything compared to FIX, because you are not.

You are a relic of the past, bitter from your defeats throwing rocks in a glass house with no actual ability to back your words up.

dbp

---

You got one thing right we are not like FIX, no where near them tbh and I think every Stainer is damn proud not to be like FIX.

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Come back and take Querious from us, then maybe we'll stop ignoring you. And no, BoB aint gonna stop you.

---

Originally by: DB Preacher

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

You could have used that fighting spirit before BoB bent you over and had their way with you.

---

That is highly amusing coming from someone who we actually did bend over and spank.

How is SA these days? Oh yeah, you don't exist.

amusing.

dbp

---

Originally by: Kunming

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Lots of blablabla...

I might be biased and misinformed in some points but this is pretty much the general scheme of things. FIX has always been lapdogs.. they should be proud of what they are, they played the diplomatic game very well!

---

Originally by: Kunming

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I might be biased and misinformed

---

Originally by: Mauxir

---

Thats cool I agree to disagree.

You traded in a little freedom for a little security. If you can live with that who am I to stop you.

But that road doesnt lead to higher rewards unfortunately.

---

Originally by: Scifa

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O look BoB to the rescue... Again!

---

Originally by: ponieus

---

Originally by: Scifa

---

O look BoB to the rescue... Again!

---

means alot from an alliance that cant hack it in 0.0..

but anyways my personal opinion is FIX fought for their right to be an 0.0 Allinace. We they got in trouble (IE: under attack by collation) Bob moved in to help an ALLIE. We made is so FIX can still stay in 0.0 where they deserve to be. That is whay Allies do for each other. I know its hard for some of you to understand but that is how it works when you have friends.

agian my personal feelings in this matter..

---

Originally by: ponieus

---

means alot from an alliance that cant hack it in 0.0..

---

Originally by: Joe Bloggers

---

I heard that you guys blew up a 30bil FIX outpost egg. Were you friends before then or only after?

---

Originally by: Shin Ra

---

I was thinking... I know OMG!

BoB really haven't made much progress. I began to think that BoB may have failed in what they set out to do, or not expected to much resistance.

However, I realised that I had been thinking of big alliances wars in a kind of blitzkreig sense. Forgetting, for example, SA vs CA. It went on for donkeys, everyone had a great time (yeah the smack was on a similar level to bob vs ascn but still).

So despite what your all saying to eachother, I'm sure its all fun and games in the end.

---

Originally by: LUKEC

---

What was KAOS empire? Enlighten us, please.

---

Originally by: ProphetGuru

---

Originally by: Kunming

---

I might be biased and misinformed

---

Least you got something right......

---

Quote:

---

We have now our "own" 0.0 space. We live there without taxes, we make our own policies.

---

Originally by: LUKEC

---

Edited by: LUKEC on 27/10/2006 16:38:46

Originally by: Kunming

---

We got Tenal from 5. (and failed to take it by force together with FE) and lived there...

---

So were you 5./FE's lapdogs? Yes or No will be enough.

---

Originally by: McMike

---

Quote:

---

We have now our "own" 0.0 space. We live there without taxes, we make our own policies.

---

Pleeeease.

* You had your own 0.0 space, you now live in BOB's 0.0 space. Look at alliance map and look at the sov of the station systems.
* You pay taxes as soon as your press the refine button in BOB's stations.
* You have your own policies AS LONG as they don't conflict with BOB's policies. If they do, BOB's dictates what you do. If you want to do something and bob said no, you would not do it.

BOB controls you. They may leave you be when your not needed but ultimately, BOB has final say on what happens in their space.

---

Originally by: Taz Devlin

---

I know I have no regrets about warring with FIX on any of the occasions.
My only regret is not telling BoB to stick theyr ceasefire the first time around.
Hindsight is allways 20/20

---

Originally by: Kunming

---

Originally by: LUKEC

---

Edited by: LUKEC on 27/10/2006 16:38:46

Originally by: Kunming

---

We got Tenal from 5. (and failed to take it by force together with FE) and lived there...

---

So were you 5./FE's lapdogs? Yes or No will be enough.

---

YES, but we didnt got tenal from 5/FE, we took it from NBSI (and lost capital ships in the process). We were lapdogs of .5. but we intended to change that, thats why we contacted G/D2 to help us, who had the same agenda of getting rid of FIVE but instead of keeping KAOS there they decided it would be better to have RAZOR, GUARD, whatever muppet alliance instead. (Our accomplishments in the ally tourney were both a blessing and a curse, D2 was afraid we would grow into a second BoB right on their doorstep, IMO its the same mistake as FA did, they could had strong allies in the south instead we saw weak muppets like PBL, which offered a good opportunity for BoB to move it, the north is the same atm: look how many ppl are active in Tenal during the day!?)

Oh and I bolded what you need to quote for your next reply

---

Originally by: Nez Perces

---

Edited by: Nez Perces on 27/10/2006 17:18:39

Originally by: Taz Devlin

---

I know I have no regrets about warring with FIX on any of the occasions.
My only regret is not telling BoB to stick theyr ceasefire the first time around.
Hindsight is allways 20/20

---

... I often think exactly the same thing Taz

Who knows what might have happened.

(I am referring to the way the Coalition war panned out, I believe you are too..)

The knock on effect of not fighting that war to its conclusion .. was extremely far reaching for both camps.

Ofc that wasn't the first time we had fought.. the first time was shortly after CA fell.....

---

Originally by: Manfred Sideous

---

Mods please lock this thread as it has degenterated and the original point of the thread seems lost are to have fallen upon deaf ears.

---

Originally by: James 315

---

Originally by: Manfred Sideous

---

Mods please lock this thread as it has degenterated and the original point of the thread seems lost are to have fallen upon deaf ears.

---

QFT

The debates in this thread about who owns what space are a waste of energy. Joshua does the official map and any disagreements with it (e.g. FIX owns part of Querious, etc.) need to be taken up in the map thread. Arguments in the rest of the forum will just go around in circles because nothing can be officially resolved.

---

Originally by: Taz Devlin

---

Actually, you would be wrong.
The op was warning CYVOK & co for accusing them of being lapdogs.
That is the discussion.

---

Originally by: Drake Modain

---

This whole thread just wreaks of complete desperation. ASCN must really be in dire straights if their main goal now is try to act like 10 year olds in a play ground trying to drive a wedge between 2 friends.

It seems to me like FIX and BOB are in a great situation in regards to each other. Mutually beneficial like any kind of relationship. If ind it comical that ASCN and their alts only real weapon is words at this point.

Gosh...what a unique strategy. Let's call anyone friendly with BOB a lap dog, in a feeble attempt to inspire in them some sort of irrational desire to fight their own allies in a last ditch desperate attempt to take some pressure off our corp.

What a gem, did Cyvok make that one up? lol =0) How many dif corps have you called lapdogs now? It's funny, by your definition 99% of all corps in the game would be lapdogs. From all accounts fix is a really cool gang of peeps and they're making their way in the universe the best way they can and are taking advantage of what's available to them and making friends with who they choose. You think calling them lapdogs is going to somehow make them think you are intelligent?

somehow I doubt it.

It's becoming more and more obvious that ASCN was completely totally unprepared for what a real war truely entails on eve. The fact that your'e trying to attack everyone friendly to bob right now in some brilliant 'strategem' at cutting off a bob supply chain is probably one of the worst decisiosn you could make.

All yer doing is stirring up more hornets nests that are going to land squarely in your already decimated lap.

I stll haven't seen anyone in ASCN be able to answer this simple question - how can you disrupt a supply chain that'snot in use?

If you can't win any fleet battles, BOB doesn't need any supply chain to beat you. I'm in what I'm sure you will refer to as a 'slave corp'...which just shows how ignorant you are, but we haven't even been glanced at for assistance in any way other than docking at a station (ouch, the isk hurts). I just don't think your leadership truely understands the situation you are in, or you'd probably already have disbanded.

Anyway my rant is over. 5 pages of ascn tryin to 'drive a wedge' or insult fix is just stupid. Frankly I'm surprised anyone is even dignifying this stupidity with a response.

oh please /sign if ya hear me lol

---

Originally by: Manfred Sideous But yet FIX MC XELAS and others are called BOB lapdogs. [/quote

---

Thats cause you are lapdogs, just like ascn was vs trust in ec.

Originally by: NATMav

---

The only good thing about this thread is the 0utbreak sigs.

---

Originally by: LUKEC

---

Originally by: Kunming

---

Originally by: LUKEC

---

Edited by: LUKEC on 27/10/2006 16:38:46

Originally by: Kunming

---

We got Tenal from 5. (and failed to take it by force together with FE) and lived there...

---

So were you 5./FE's lapdogs? Yes or No will be enough.

---

YES, but we didnt got tenal from 5/FE, we took it from NBSI (and lost capital ships in the process). We were lapdogs of .5. but we intended to change that, thats why we contacted G/D2 to help us, who had the same agenda of getting rid of FIVE but instead of keeping KAOS there they decided it would be better to have RAZOR, GUARD, whatever muppet alliance instead. (Our accomplishments in the ally tourney were both a blessing and a curse, D2 was afraid we would grow into a second BoB right on their doorstep, IMO its the same mistake as FA did, they could had strong allies in the south instead we saw weak muppets like PBL, which offered a good opportunity for BoB to move it, the north is the same atm: look how many ppl are active in Tenal during the day!?)

Oh and I bolded what you need to quote for your next reply

---

So turning to d2 would help your cause exactly in what way? I don't understand, really. It would turn you magically from lapdog to ally?
I think we are more discussing semantics than content here. Are d2 and RZR allies or is one lapdog of the other one? What about d2 and IRON(considering last year bob's roadtrip) or d2 & Morsus Mihi(and conflict with TCF)? Or for instance consider LV/VI/KOS... I hope it helps you understand my point of view.

This will be offtopic:
You lost capital ships on gate (was good fight, you made NBSI/PA happy after all hardcore spanking we were getting from 5. on daily basis). I still don't know why you didn't wait for server upgrade, lag was horrible.
About tenal... it's sh1thole. Nothing to do there apart from mining till your brains quit. Problems with branch/tenal is that they are/were(especially b4 nwo) so far from everything.

---

Originally by: Kunming

---

Back to topic which is FIX, FIX and BoB didnt had common enemies or goals... Back in time abit, FA vs UFS, FIX allies with FA cause it was the easy way out. FA then uses FIX as a southern bufferzone, despite them having no common goals or enemies. What purpose did FA have for FIX, protect them from attacks that may come from the lower regions which are already blocked by Querious?..

---

Originally by: McMike

---

Quote:

---

We have now our "own" 0.0 space. We live there without taxes, we make our own policies.

---

Pleeeease.

* You had your own 0.0 space, you now live in BOB's 0.0 space. Look at alliance map and look at the sov of the station systems.
* You pay taxes as soon as your press the refine button in BOB's stations.
* You have your own policies AS LONG as they don't conflict with BOB's policies. If they do, BOB's dictates what you do. If you want to do something and bob said no, you would not do it.

BOB controls you. They may leave you be when your not needed but ultimately, BOB has final say on what happens in their space.

---

Originally by: Krychton

---

The propganda/smear attempt in this entire thread is laughable. Calling alliances allied with other alliances "lapdogs". A sad attempt in dividing loyalties. Its called having friends and allies. Thats like me saying AXE are ASCN lapdogs, and I'm sure some people can make an arguement out of that.

Things must be desparate when people resort to this sort of behavior.

---

Originally by: Kunming

---

There is a difference between allying with an alliance to fight a common enemy and obeying another alliance in external and/or internal politics.. One is called an ally, the latter a lapdog.

The Coalition that fights RA is being held together by RA at the same time, I doubt the level of peace and understanding can be kept alive once RA is gone from the picture. V are great pvpers and I'd love to test out my skills vs them sometime

Back to KAOS, who wanted to ally with G/D2 to get rid of their overlords the .5., it doesnt mean KAOS would obey D2 in anyway, the cooperation was meant to take care of FIVE.

Back to topic which is FIX, FIX and BoB didnt had common enemies or goals... Back in time abit, FA vs UFS, FIX allies with FA cause it was the easy way out. FA then uses FIX as a southern bufferzone, despite them having no common goals or enemies. What purpose did FA have for FIX, protect them from attacks that may come from the lower regions which are already blocked by Querious?..

Sorry if I'm confusing you, but I personally rather say "Damn I got WTFPWNED, time to move on" instead of "I'm still here but I'm obeying some 3rd party"...

---

Originally by: Gallente Vengeance

---

Various and assorted garbage spewed by an obvious troll

---

Originally by: Avernus

---

Btw, does GNN have a website? You actually do a good job of snagging interviews in a timely manner.

---

Originally by: Slowboat

---

Edited by: Slowboat on 27/10/2006 19:49:27

Originally by: Gallente Vengeance

---

Various and assorted garbage spewed by an obvious troll

---

Yeah because, you know, that's not biased or anything.

---

Originally by: Slowboat

---

Edited by: Slowboat on 27/10/2006 19:49:27

Originally by: Gallente Vengeance

---

Various and assorted garbage spewed by an obvious troll

---

Yeah because, you know, that's not biased or anything.

---

Originally by: Kcel Chim

---

Originally by: Joe Bloggers

---

I heard that you guys blew up a 30bil FIX outpost egg. Were you friends before then or only after?

---

They blew up the egg after their standing reset which included Fix aswell.

Fix and Bob had and have a friendship which goes beyond "+v" forged with the mutual respect fighting against each other in 9cg and later together with each other in 9cg.

---

Originally by: Major Stormer

---

So you had to make your own thread instead of just eve-mailing?

---

Originally by: Miv333

---

Originally by: Major Stormer

---

So you had to make your own thread instead of just eve-mailing?

---

I like the public posting, as its true.

SPeaking of, why does ASCN mess with every one else, when only bob is fighting em? Trying to get the whole of eve against em?

---

Quote:

---

BNC took a little time out of the fight to do a couple of other things, had a quiet couple of weekends on the trot and didn't hit FIX much at all. We actually started getting messages from FIX asking if we were ok and when would we be coming to visit again, they missed us! I've never had that from an opponent in Eve before now except the smacky "bring it you tards we're gonna own you" and that was certainly not the tone from FIX.

---

Originally by: Joe Bloggers

---

Originally by: Kcel Chim

---

Originally by: Joe Bloggers

---

I heard that you guys blew up a 30bil FIX outpost egg. Were you friends before then or only after?

---

They blew up the egg after their standing reset which included Fix aswell.

Fix and Bob had and have a friendship which goes beyond "+v" forged with the mutual respect fighting against each other in 9cg and later together with each other in 9cg.

---

So.... Bob and Fix were friends. Then BoB blows up FIX's 30bil outpost egg. This builds up Fix's respect for bob, since it was only done after a standings reset. Did Fix know about this standings reset in advance? And after BoB blow up a 30 bil outpost, they are friends?

Pardon my logic, if that were me, I would be seeking revenge!

---

Originally by: Mahrin Skel

---

To understand what happened at the end of the CODA war, you have to understand where we were at: Most of the corps who wanted to move somewhere else in 0.0 and start fresh had already left, to form PURE. Many of our best PvP'ers had left to join Outbreak. And the ones who didn't have the stomach for a losing fight had left by dribs and drabs throughout the course of the war. So what was left was figuring on drawing back to the 3-F gateway and it's vicinity, and staging a guerilla war to keep fighting against CODA. And for the two weeks that CODA was fighting in 9CG against BOB, that's exactly what we did, racking up a few hundred kills on pilots trying to move between there and Empire. BOB was still shooting at us when we crossed paths, but not going out of their way to find us.

But FIX had one bargaining chip left: We still had 3 large POS's in 9CG, although we lacked the means to keep them from being put in Reinforced, we had managed to keep them from being knocked out, and fueled in spite of being shot at by *everyone*. CODA had two, BOB had one, no one could muster the force to either knock POS's out completely, or to put up more. That is when the deal with BOB was struck, while we still had the means to negotiate as equals. We took Sovereignty with our POS's, which BOB defended, and gave BOB docking rights, putting an end to the station ping-pong.

Did we give up the stations? Technically, we gave up 9CG after CODA folded like a wet paper towel, but the fact is that even if BOB had said "Here's your stations back, try not to lose them again" (and how would that have been less humiliating than the deal we made?), at that point we lacked the means to defend them. We weren't humiliated, we were humbled, but we still had our honor and our pride. BOB respected that, and we respected them. We needed time to rebuild, and the deal with BOB offered us that.

If BOB came to us and asked us to join them in their fight against ASCN, we'd probably do so, because it would be BOB coming to us as equals and asking for help, a status we have earned through the loss of many ships and our determination to rebuild. And if ASCN continues to treat us with contempt, we may do so on our own.

So keep in mind, we were *beaten*. Flat broke (I personally spent 2 billion isk in the last month of the war, and ended it with less than 100M). Lacking enough numbers at every level to defend Q even if we'd still owned it. But we'd gone down proud and swinging, and managed to retain the ability to influence and decide the battle for Querious. At that point, all we had left was our pride, and the stubborn refusal to accept any option that drove us out of Q for good.

So look down on us for living in BOB's shadow if you like. Try to create FUD in our relationship with BOB, hoping that by saying "BOB's Lapdogs" often enough you can influence our actions to be more to your liking. But know this: FIX chose our course with eyes wide open, and we don't care what people who never liked us think of our choice. Our friends understand, and we feel our honor is intact, so to hell with anyone who can't see it.

--Dave

---

Originally by: Joe Bloggers

---

Originally by: Kcel Chim

---

Originally by: Joe Bloggers

---

I heard that you guys blew up a 30bil FIX outpost egg. Were you friends before then or only after?

---

They blew up the egg after their standing reset which included Fix aswell.

Fix and Bob had and have a friendship which goes beyond "+v" forged with the mutual respect fighting against each other in 9cg and later together with each other in 9cg.

---

So.... Bob and Fix were friends. Then BoB blows up FIX's 30bil outpost egg. This builds up Fix's respect for bob, since it was only done after a standings reset. Did Fix know about this standings reset in advance? And after BoB blow up a 30 bil outpost, they are friends?

Pardon my logic, if that were me, I would be seeking revenge!

---

Originally by: Scifa

---

O look BoB to the rescue... Again!

---

Originally by: Rikeka

---

As an ASCN fella said, no one from command has posted anything about FIX on the forums; calling them ¿lapdogs¿.

---

Originally by: Avernus

---

Actually, Gallente Vengeance did a bit on ASCN from their view, and BoB from their view as well. Neither read as biased... entertaining and injected with some colour yes, but not biased.

EvilFlyingMonkey,
For a guy that doesn't like FIX, and does judge us harshly, at least you back your feelings with solid reasoning for why it is you feel that way.

Taz,
You're one of the few people that have been around long enough to know exactly where things began to go wrong with QDF/FIX and SA/SE/Coalition. Kind of like the same way CFS history continues to haunt FIX years after, our two groups have been locked into a repeating history. You know better than most how the trust between our two groups got breached to begin with.

---

Originally by: Isotobe

---

This is the most accurate version I have read so far in this post.

How do I know? I was there for the full 3 weeks running the CODA resupply gang from Badi to the front lines, and a number of times had to break up the Fix gate camps at 3-FK of which Mahrin was there nearly every time. It must also be noted that this action was the exception to the normal no show of any other Fix in the region.

Dunno exactly what the rest of this post is about, except the fact that ASCN are looking like they are trying to get anyone to help them fight Bobbits.

I would help you, alas I dont like ASCN, I dont like Bob or Fix either, but they have earnt respect (not including the forum) on the battlefield.

Oh 1 last thing, no ASCN flames or threats please, just check local I am there daily.

---

Originally by: Avernus

---

Umm, Taz, just in case you are thinking of the Trigger/Droewa incident, the breach happened prior to that in our eyes...

Just the diplomacy comment made me wonder if we're thinking of the same thing.

---

Originally by: Dianabolic

---

Rikeka - you can see an, as yet incomplete, account of the CODA conflict from RKK perspective at www.reikoku.net/forums/

---

Originally by: Manfred Sideous

---

Edited by: Manfred Sideous on 26/10/2006 23:35:40
Dear Sir


It seems that you your alliance and your allies like to sling mud and accusations in the direction of entities that have good relations to the alliance Band Of Brothers. For the most part they have grossly overstated and unfounded. Most of us have sat queitly trying to figure out your motivations for doing so. As you will notice FIX MC XELAS The Horde and other entities having good relations with Band Of Brothers have stayed impassive and quiet. This is a ASCN & BOB conflict the last time I checked.




But yet FIX MC XELAS and others are called BOB lapdogs. There has been unprovoked attacks on FIX MC and XELAS as well. Dear Sir from what ive seen from killboards forums and player accounts ASCN has their hands very full. Now it would seem that AAA will be attacking your biggest ally and supporter.




Now with those things taken into consideration do still wish to sling mud make attacks and unfounded accusations. I can tell you Cyvok you are providing a catalyst fueling desires for entities that are at this point staying out of the conflict. Perhaps these entities will reach their ropes end with the strife you are attempting to serve.



So I ask you Cyvok is this what you want? Do you really want to provide a catalyst and justification for us "Lapdogs" as you call us to pounce? I would think that you humble down and stop slinging mud. Your hands seem to be full with your current obligations do you really want more?


In my estimation your E-peen isnt big enough to get into a ****ing contest with the folks your slinging mud at.

Edit- Addendum
Notice* This is a pod pilots personal perception of the current situation and does not reflect the official opinion of aforementioned entities.

---

Quote:

---

So I ask you Cyvok is this what you want? Do you really want to provide a catalyst and justification for us "Lapdogs" as you call us to pounce?

---

Originally by: Mahrin Skel

---

To understand what happened at the end of the CODA war, you have to understand where we were at: Most of the corps who wanted to move somewhere else in 0.0 and start fresh had already left, to form PURE. Many of our best PvP'ers had left to join Outbreak. And the ones who didn't have the stomach for a losing fight had left by dribs and drabs throughout the course of the war. So what was left was figuring on drawing back to the 3-F gateway and it's vicinity, and staging a guerilla war to keep fighting against CODA. And for the two weeks that CODA was fighting in 9CG against BOB, that's exactly what we did, racking up a few hundred kills on pilots trying to move between there and Empire. BOB was still shooting at us when we crossed paths, but not going out of their way to find us.

But FIX had one bargaining chip left: We still had 3 large POS's in 9CG, although we lacked the means to keep them from being put in Reinforced, we had managed to keep them from being knocked out, and fueled in spite of being shot at by *everyone*. CODA had two, BOB had one, no one could muster the force to either knock POS's out completely, or to put up more. That is when the deal with BOB was struck, while we still had the means to negotiate as equals. We took Sovereignty with our POS's, which BOB defended, and gave BOB docking rights, putting an end to the station ping-pong.

Did we give up the stations? Technically, we gave up 9CG after CODA folded like a wet paper towel, but the fact is that even if BOB had said "Here's your stations back, try not to lose them again" (and how would that have been less humiliating than the deal we made?), at that point we lacked the means to defend them. We weren't humiliated, we were humbled, but we still had our honor and our pride. BOB respected that, and we respected them. We needed time to rebuild, and the deal with BOB offered us that.

If BOB came to us and asked us to join them in their fight against ASCN, we'd probably do so, because it would be BOB coming to us as equals and asking for help, a status we have earned through the loss of many ships and our determination to rebuild. And if ASCN continues to treat us with contempt, we may do so on our own.

So keep in mind, we were *beaten*. Flat broke (I personally spent 2 billion isk in the last month of the war, and ended it with less than 100M). Lacking enough numbers at every level to defend Q even if we'd still owned it. But we'd gone down proud and swinging, and managed to retain the ability to influence and decide the battle for Querious. At that point, all we had left was our pride, and the stubborn refusal to accept any option that drove us out of Q for good.

So look down on us for living in BOB's shadow if you like. Try to create FUD in our relationship with BOB, hoping that by saying "BOB's Lapdogs" often enough you can influence our actions to be more to your liking. But know this: FIX chose our course with eyes wide open, and we don't care what people who never liked us think of our choice. Our friends understand, and we feel our honor is intact, so to hell with anyone who can't see it.

--Dave

---

Originally by: Avernus

---

Gawd... we turned into a bunch of forum *****s overnight.

Dark has an excuse, he already was one...
/boots Dark out of the thread.

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: Avernus

---

Gawd... we turned into a bunch of forum *****s overnight.

Dark has an excuse, he already was one...
/boots Dark out of the thread.

---

Its a disease

---

Originally by: Doppleganger

---

Stuff

---

Originally by: Avernus

---

Gawd... we turned into a bunch of forum *****s overnight.

Dark has an excuse, he already was one...
/boots Dark out of the thread.

---

Originally by: Mahrin Skel

---

Vassals are not slaves. In feudal political structures, everyone but the Sovereign is a vassal, incluing the major and minor nobility, subordinate royalty, and so on. In fact, the "serfs" whose status often is slavelike are *not* vassals.

--Dave

---

Originally by: Taz Devlin

---

Originally by: Mahrin Skel

---

Vassals are not slaves. In feudal political structures, everyone but the Sovereign is a vassal, incluing the major and minor nobility, subordinate royalty, and so on. In fact, the "serfs" whose status often is slavelike are *not* vassals.

--Dave

---

The fact that you or anyone else controls the space you live in is just business, plain and simple.
But the fact that big bro has come to the rescue everytime FIX was on the verge of losing it all.
That makes you dependant on survival, and thus considered lapdogs.

---

Originally by: Taz Devlin

---

Originally by: Mahrin Skel

---

Vassals are not slaves. In feudal political structures, everyone but the Sovereign is a vassal, incluing the major and minor nobility, subordinate royalty, and so on. In fact, the "serfs" whose status often is slavelike are *not* vassals.

--Dave

---

The fact that you or anyone else controls the space you live in is just business, plain and simple.
But the fact that big bro has come to the rescue everytime FIX was on the verge of losing it all.
That makes you dependant on survival, and thus considered lapdogs.

---

Originally by: Taz Devlin

---

Originally by: Mahrin Skel

---

Vassals are not slaves. In feudal political structures, everyone but the Sovereign is a vassal, incluing the major and minor nobility, subordinate royalty, and so on. In fact, the "serfs" whose status often is slavelike are *not* vassals.

--Dave

---

The fact that you or anyone else controls the space you live in is just business, plain and simple.
But the fact that big bro has come to the rescue everytime FIX was on the verge of losing it all.
That makes you dependant on survival, and thus considered lapdogs.

---