Combat is still one dimensional within scram range.

And the margins between AB and MWD are the difference between black and white. There is very few moment to moment tactics you can employ when in a fight; fit determines what you can fight, which is rather narrow. A fight ends up in the opposing parties knowing the outcome and one party just waiting 60s to lose a ship.

I love ppl flying t3 dessies in pvp. The tears when i kill them are awesome, and they were even greater when the t3's cost 200-300mill

The only reason people even buy obviously OP ships is because there's no shortage of idiots willing to chase after them in obviously slower ships.

It's a bit of a straw man to blame ez-mode kiting on Garmurs because there's really nothing stopping anyone from getting kills the same way in a cheap attack frig with speed mods and long-range guns.

There are no shortage to garmur counters.

Sentinel, reduces margin for error to minimal levels.
Cruor, reduces margin for error.
Hyena, reduces margin for error.
Dramiel, faster, tankier and more dps. Though weak vs defensive scram.
Multiple sniper corms or area denial coercers.
Element of surprise with an OH, dual overdrive derptron gets a lot of people garmur kills.

The one property that a boosted rep fleet point garmur has in common with all of these is its 2-200x more expensive.

There is no denying that kiting was a lot more challenging for me when i flew the maulus more, its incorrect to say there is no paper for the garmurs stone. Shiny killmails in space waiting to happen is a good thing.

Thanks for the input Crosi, while I'd say you have listed some fantastic counters to all kiters certainly in plexes I'd also say that perhaps I have not made my point clearly.

Why would I fly any of them when I could fly a garmur? In a garmur I can now engage a massive range of ships, or just leave. The ships you just listed are much more limited. I also don't want this to degenerate into solely an anti garmur post. I am very specifically gathering it, the orthrus and the t3 dessies into one pile. It's just too easy to get kills and run from people you don't like.

Thanks for the input Crosi, while I'd say you have listed some fantastic counters to all kiters certainly in plexes I'd also say that perhaps I have not made my point clearly.

Why would I fly any of them when I could fly a garmur? In a garmur I can now engage a massive range of ships, or just leave. The ships you just listed are much more limited. I also don't want this to degenerate into solely an anti garmur post. I am very specifically gathering it, the orthrus and the t3 dessies into one pile. It's just too easy to get kills and run from people you don't like.

If they're so strong, why don't you fly them?

OOooh thats because I'm a scrub. I could, and I am sure I'd get lot's of lovely kills. I don't play EVE or shoot people in EVE for the killmail totals though. Beauty of a sandbox I suppose, we all get our thrills oneway or another.

Garmur - I do fly them but it's boring me shitless flying it. I like the rush of pvp and I rarely if ever get that from this ship.
Orthrus - My experience with the garmur tells me I would also not enjoy this.
T3 dessies - I'd be a hypocrite if I flew these, I am staunchly opposed to their inate flexibility in one ship. At least t3 cruisers have to refit.

it is ridiculous to me why someone would engage a kiting ship solo.

in any ship.

that being said, there is a reason i havent suffered a single lossmail to a garmur.

there are just ships that when i see them i d-scan i make sure im not on grid with them.

some people just have a hard time grasping the meta and use of d-scan.

So the counter to Garmurs is never to fight it? Sounds balanced.

IIRC Crosi, you fly your Garmurs linked and HG snaked, those things have no counters assuming an equal level of pilot skill. The stuff you listed has a chance of killing Garmurs IF they mess up, and that's not really an argument since X can always kill Y if Y messes bad enough up regardless of the ship.

8km/s cold Garmurs are basically immune to almost everything that can hit it. I remember trying to kill a Garmur in an LML Talwar only to find my missiles would peter out before they hit the Garmur and even then, if I did manage to hit him he could just pull range and warp out since he'd be fighting at 60km where nothing bar another Garmur/Orthrus could point him. Drones don't hit, rail corms you can just pull range and leave, faster MWD ships don't have a hope of catching you with 20km defensive scram, sentinel only neuts to 30km and is far slower, Hyena only webs to 40 and even if you get webbed, you can just warp out before he gets the point on etc etc

Garmurs are broken mostly because of how powerful offgrid links are but even then, the ship design allows you to scale ridiculously well with links that it's just stupid.

Crosi is the Garmur pilot of my heart

https://zkillboard.com/kill/45506849/

0/10, try harder next time.

Garmurs would be alot more reasonable without offgrid links.

I live in highsec what is kiting.

You mean like when I warp to zero or (very occasionally) 10km from my neutral scout?

i do not see how links affect anything on ship balance.

Not quite but close. Now let's do some baby steps first. First click the stargate/station and orbit at 3000 meters. I know I know it's scary to be out of jump/dock range of the stargate/station but it is needed to actually move your ship which is the first step in kiting(your ship moving).

Post again if you have done it and tell us how does it feel to be out of range of the gate/station.

Hope you have a neutral Jita alt...hilarious though.

Hope you have a neutral Jita alt...hilarious though.

Because the Worm and Garmur go from really good without links to god mode with them. I don't think we need god mode rewards for bittervets. A ship that punches out 130 DPS with light missiles at 70k with a point at the same range and can hold orbit at 8k m/s is too much. Likewise a linked snaked worm can probably top 6k cold with 200 DPS drones each having the EHP of an interceptor. Having spent a huge amount of time playing this game should not entitle you to a win button. The cumulative advantage in SP, assets, and experience is enough.

it is ridiculous to me why someone would engage a kiting ship solo.

in any ship.

that being said, there is a reason i havent suffered a single lossmail to a garmur.

there are just ships that when i see them i d-scan i make sure im not on grid with them.

some people just have a hard time grasping the meta and use of d-scan.

That's odd, I see no t3 kills on your killboard.

Nor in fact more than 20 lifetime kills.

Perhaps you accidentally posted with an alt?

considering that I myself started this joke and that about 100% of my kills in jita are other mercs because (shock horror) in reality not all mercs are immobile trade hub campers I don't think he has anything to worry about.

they should put long range webs/points into the game

Kiting is the most honorable form of combat. It is actually way inferior to brawling, YOUR player skill alone makes it possible to compete. Brawling is just approach and turn on all module. No skill there. While kiting you have to manage your range using the orbit/keep range button and if youre in a bad ship like a non faction prop mod Orthrus you will need to turn off your prop mod sometimes to conserve cap. While brawling you have none of these problems.

crosi is... well lets just say his skin is very pale and one of his arms is bigger than the other...

Wrong thread, i think you were looking for the 'projecting our insecurities on others' thread

No doubt the garmur has a very effective set of bonuses. As ive said though, the game isnt balanced around isk and all the counters to the garmurs bonuses happen to be a lot cheaper, with the exception of a properly supported dram perhaps.

nah the garmur is just poorly designed.

ways to maybe fix it:
1. get rid of 1 mid
2. nerf its cap so it cant perma run all its mids

PS crosi try alternating your crank arm so you dont look so silly

crosi every time you respond to me its either a pathetic straw man, or you say im mad. just quiet down

crosi talking to you always feels like talking to a child

heres the difference between my post and your post

me:

---

crosi is a nerd (hilarious comment completely unrelated to the bulk of my post meant solely for my own amusement)

criticism of garmur which is related to the thread (this is the main point of my post)

---

crosi:

---

wow you are mad lol so hostile (this is you completely missing the point of my post while simultaneously trying to sound like an intellectual but in reality you just come off as stupid)

---

as for my rifter example, once again you completely miss the point

i made a hypothetical situation to analogize the creation of the garmur/t3 dessies to the HYPOTHETICAL creation of a super-rifter

this has NOTHING to do with how the rifter was eventually "balanced"

---

edit: however if you'd like we can compare and contrast the ways in which these two situations were handled

rifter is overpowered: buff all the other ships in its class (ok sounds good)

kiting ship supremacy: lets create even stronger kiting ships (funny because its so ********)

eh, Worm's not really that unreasonable, I've seen solo kills by dessies and plenty of 2-3 man gangs can take them down. I think hot drone DPS is a recipe for overconfidence and the hull ranks under the Hawk in terms of tank potential so those factors naturally increase risk.

Garmur is a whole new ship though, maybe threads like this will emphasize the need to tweak it. It would be nice if it got a speed nerf to bring it in line with Caldari combat frigs. Hardly seems fair to give a ship all the best aspects of both a combat frig and also an attack frig. With the slot layout it already has, a speed buff would still keep it at better stats than the Hookbill, that should be enough to balance it with the rest of the pirate frigs.

ive killed countless garmurs by being the initial point/scram with a ceptor, which then was followed with a blob

doesnt mean the ship is balanced

if you even bothered to read any of the posts you respond to you would see that my contention is not that garmurs are invincible;
my contention is that garmurs (and orthrus and t3 dessies for that matter) are conceptually flawed. anti-fun. blob-encouraging. damaging to the solo/smallgang meta.

they shouldnt exist. they take a problem (the kiting supremacy) and exacerbate it.

Confirming I mastubate.

Eyes closed, thinking about Garmurs?

All else being equal, nothing, bar cruisers and up, will solo a linked garmur.

lolno

This is a little stifled with no example.

Garmur without links, balanced.

Garmur with links and 200m in faction mods and 500m+ in implants, broken.

All else being equal, nothing, bar cruisers and up, will solo a linked garmur.

a loki boosting you at all times

He doesn't use a Loki all the time, sometimes it's a Proteus. Jeez get your facts straight.

Which is better than just being wrong.

Because the Worm and Garmur go from really good without links to god mode with them. I don't think we need god mode rewards for bittervets. A ship that punches out 130 DPS with light missiles at 70k with a point at the same range and can hold orbit at 8k m/s is too much. Likewise a linked snaked worm can probably top 6k cold with 200 DPS drones each having the EHP of an interceptor. Having spent a huge amount of time playing this game should not entitle you to a win button. The cumulative advantage in SP, assets, and experience is enough.

Pilot like Crosi are OP, not the Garmur. If you need a blob to kill a garmur.. two fast 3m isk atron can kill a garmur with def scram, try this versus a worm..

Garmur has lot of counter and great gtfo capacity, more with snake and links, like many other ships..

No the garmur is op precisely because a super nerd like crosi can use a 3 bil pod and an off grid booster

Eve has an incredibly low skillcap. Any mongo can use a snaked/linked garmur and hit orbit.

Even his garmur fits just screams scared nerd.

I hate linked garmurs... linked anything as much as the next guy.

But you sound like crosi is your secret crush and its an unrequited love.

.... because of edge cases like the amount of isk a handful of people put into pvp, the entire game should be rebalanced.

Lots of people, in and out of game, lack the introspection to apply the same standards to people they dislike (for whatever reason) as they do to those they like, or particularly themselves. We have an acute case here.

So much win in this statment, if people are willing to risk the isk and have the SP, who are we to bad mouth them? Heaven forbid a whole Corp does it though, cause then it's easy mode..... Complimant and tongue in cheek in the same post. I like.

because of edge cases like the amount of isk a handful of people put into pvp, the entire game should be rebalanced.

Math is hard.

Pilot like Crosi are OP, not the Garmur. If you need a blob to kill a garmur.. two fast 3m isk atron can kill a garmur with def scram, try this versus a worm..

Garmur has lot of counter and great gtfo capacity, more with snake and links, like many other ships..

Those two derptrons have about 4k ehp each, one if not both will be dead by the time they get close enough to think they had a chance. Lest we mention the defensive scram for the survivor.

You are correct though, Crosi is one of the best pilots around, I'm not a fan of links but at least he uses them 'right,' taking on odds where any other setup would die.

This doesn't have to be so personal. Individuals aside, the Garmur has probably the least number of counters out there. Most other frigates with boosts, Incursus/other brawlers, or LML frigate/slicer, still have plenty of hard counters out there, even if the opponent doesn't have his own boosts. Cookie Cutter Slasher fits will trash a linked brawler, and even with boosts the traditional kiting ships out there have their weaknesses from weapons range to overall speed. I could slap a RF long point and boosts on a Slicer, but I'd have to lose my pulse lasers, I could do the same to a condor but I'm still limited to my missile range (42km), which is putting you at least within the margin of error of being ****** with by someone competent.

With the Garmur, you could fit a specific hard counter, with the same boosts/implants, and still only have a 1/2 chance of making it out alive let alone killing the Garmur. The entire t1 frigate line is no good, all are significantly slower and lack the EHP to survive chasing down a Garmur and getting scram, the defensive scram again, a serious final hurdle.

Other faction/pirate frigates and EAFs, I'd give it a shot in a structure tanked blaster Comet. I'm still slower by 2k m/s and again if the Garmur has a defensive scram, chances are not great. Now a Dram gets close, still slower all else being equal and again, the defensive scram is rough. You could fit an overdrive and drop a gyrostab, leaving you with the same dps as a Garmur, but with the Garmur having 70km of lead time to shoot you in the face, your small AAR only runs 40 seconds without a cap booster as well. You could medium shield extend it but you only get 2.8k more ehp than the Garmur just running a DCU, bout 25 seconds worth of Garmur shooting you in the face. Again, presuming the Garmur is running away that 25 seconds won't cover the time it takes you to catch him, which is never because again, you're still slower.

Apparently Hyena and Sentinel were bandied about but I'm going to assume those were troll suggestions. A hyena could web out to 68km, might take him a while to kill you with his 25 dps though. Sentinel, 30km neuts versus a ship almost twice as quick as you orbiting at 60km...

Just seems too dominant to me, bonuses in point/weapon range and inherent strong stats that scale amazingly well with boosts, OP is built into the ships DNA. Hands down best in class by a massive margin.

And that is why you have d-scan and don't engage those ships. Once people stop leroying into obviously kite fit ships sitting in a plex, the less you will see people flying them.

Don't feed them, and they will eventually either die or change their habits.

Those two derptrons have about 4k ehp each, one if not both will be dead by the time they get close enough to think they had a chance. Lest we mention the defensive scram for the survivor.

ive killed countless garmurs by being the initial point/scram with a ceptor, which then was followed with a blob

doesnt mean the ship is balanced

if you even bothered to read any of the posts you respond to you would see that my contention is not that garmurs are invincible;
my contention is that garmurs (and orthrus and t3 dessies for that matter) are conceptually flawed. anti-fun. blob-encouraging. damaging to the solo/smallgang meta.

they shouldnt exist. they take a problem (the kiting supremacy) and exacerbate it.

crosi's garmur is easy to beat because he's a coward who runs double sebo

the instant you land on grid with a fast ship he's gonna warp or die because his fit is purely for KM whoring so he can have a nice killboard while being a rubbish pilot

thats also why you should take crosi's argument that the garmur can be killed by an atron or a dramiel with a grain of salt. because he doesnt fit the thing that makes the garmur truly op: the long range defensive scram

7.500 dead Garmurs for your enjoyment: https://zkillboard.com/ship/33816/losses/

15 killed solo just on the first page.

The Garmur's stats may be a tad excessive, but smart EVE players always find a way to kill stuff (and/or dumb players find ways to lose stuff).

I agree with Crosi that more shiny ships is ok for the game. Creates content in many different ways, including, of course, popcorn threads like this one.

If 'honorable 1v1s' are your cup of tea, just fly standard frigs without links and engage standard frigs that you presume do not have links. Leave the linky op-ish stuff to those who enjoy flying - and hunting - them.

That doesn't really help the argument that they are not OP, as 111,134 ships have been destroyed by Garmurs. Do the math and you find that 7500 is a rather low loss rate compared to the damage it has done.

Not saying I'm against the Garmur, but those stats are not a good comparison to show the ship is not OP.

The ship is expensive, and to be flown properly it has to have an expensive fit plus expensive implants. Yet, it can be killed by ships in large groups that are very inexpensive.

crosi all your so-called "solo" kills are snaked/linked in the most op frigate in the game against caldari militia pilots who we both know cannot even tie their own shoes much less pvp

the fact that a frigate can put 200dps out to a 60k point while doing 12kms kinda sounds like an april fools joke. but no. its real.

That doesn't really help the argument that they are not OP, as 111,134 ships have been destroyed by Garmurs. Do the math and you find that 7500 is a rather low loss rate compared to the damage it has done.

Not saying I'm against the Garmur, but those stats are not a good comparison to show the ship is not OP

That's because I wasn't arguing that the Garmur isn't OP, I was pointing out that it creates content.

Thus, it's good for the game.

For example, compare the Garmur's zkill stats to another fairly OP ship (if you consider frigate 1v1s): the Sentinel.

Less kills, many more losses, but overall much less used than the Garmur, for whatever reason.


As Leokokim pointed out in the above post, the Garmur is arguably OP but it doesn't break the game.

Why? Because it's used almost exclusively in 'for fun' PVP (solo/small gang) where it's the players that decide whether to fly it / engage it or not (aka 'the meta').

Fleet boats such as the Ishtar are another matter, because they're often flown not just 'for the lulz' but to secure in-game objectives (such as SOV battles). In this case, having an OP ship is not so good simply because everyone will want to use it (to secure their objective) over other alternatives, thus making the game a bit dull.

I frankly don't see everyone flying Garmurs...

My personal solution to Garmurs, don't engage them.

I think the point range bonus shouldn't apply to scrams, and the speed and agility needs nerfed a bit so we have more hard counters. That's all, nothing too crazy because all pirate frigs are good. The worm probably needs the drone dps reduced a bit but again nothing too crazy. Please don't break them before I get to fly one with proper skills.

crosi's spew should be disregarded because the only thing hes concerned with is his own entertainment. everything he says is self serving.

nerfing the scram bonus isnt that great of a nerf imo

base speed needs to be reduced.
and
capacitor needs to be nuked, or a mid needs to be nuked

also we need to dicuss the t3 dessies.

as i already said they are pretty much a joke as the 10mn coercer and 10mn thrasher were already incredibly strong. the t3 dessies are just even stronger versions of them.

crosi is so full of himself he actually thinks all discussions about ship balance are because of him

crosi you are bad

you are not even in gal mils top 20 solo killers

i did no such thing

in fact i was a far better maulus pilot than you

i may have used the same fit as you. but your fit was in no way amazing or requiring outside-the-box thinking

fitting ships in eve is not difficult

pretty much the only case where a fit really impressed me was quake's thrasher. and yes i shamelessly copied it

and yes it is lame to only fly the same risk-averse ship over and over and over and nothing else

there are a few key differences between you and quake

1. he used the thrasher to fight 1v2 1v3 etc :versus: you are a puss

2. he is a skilled pilot :versus: you use snaked/linked kiting ships, hit orbit and then go afk

3. brawling with a thrasher :versus: you are a snaked/linked kiting puss

4. he fights other good pvpers :versus: you warp the instant you see anyone scary

5. anyone who is interested in eve pvp knows quake :versus: nobody knows or cares about you except to use you as an example of a puss like i do

every single one of my game design criticisms is directed at ccp.

please dont confuse this with my criticisms of you as a pilot, which are directed at you

keep putting words in my mouth you sad little man

im not going to just let you spew your filth without responding, if that gives the illusion that im obsessed with you then thats just the way it has to be. by that logic you are equally obsessed with me.

I'll chip in my two isk. Bring more counter to speedy things. Those fancy blood raider ships recently got a web range bonus & some nice minmatar ships also. There were a few ships with web effectiveness...

Hell. I even decided to use a 100mn lach for these "impossible cancer ridden ships flying about."

If you cant counter it in any way possible, its broken. If its the widely used meta, there's bound to be a ship change as there always has been with CCP.

Edit: Best quote by my friend, "If everyone's kiting, no one is."

(How do you add links to EFT?).

crosi's spew should be disregarded because the only thing hes concerned with is his own entertainment. everything he says is self serving.

nerfing the scram bonus isnt that great of a nerf imo

base speed needs to be reduced.
and
capacitor needs to be nuked, or a mid needs to be nuked

also we need to dicuss the t3 dessies.

as i already said they are pretty much a joke as the 10mn coercer and 10mn thrasher were already incredibly strong. the t3 dessies are just even stronger versions of them.

Have you actually tried fitting a 10mn AB to a t3d in Mosaic? To do so you really have to gimp your fit.

once again you are suggesting a blob to deal with a solo kiter

A Garmur and the T3Ds are about the only way a soloist can take on multiple people at once, and possibly come out on top.

ya any ship can go 1 versus many. and i can also beat up multiple children at the same time.

thats not the point though

we are talking about how BAD CCP IS AT BALANCING THIS GAME

the garmur is op

the orthrus is ridiculously op with rlmls

the new t3ds are like a sick joke. why fly any assault frigate, dessie or t1 cruiser anymore when a t3d can rip all of them with ease?

Garmur and Orthrus pilots rejoice! The microwarpdrives changes means that Garmur imbalance will be propelled to entirely new levels! Thanks a bunch CCP cause what we needed was Garmurs to be even faster so that they are even more immune to everything.

Stuff

What makes the garmur overpowered is the links + snakes COMBINED with its kit of bonuses and base speed.

i have killed more garmurs than anyone in this whole thread

i have killed more garmurs than anyone in this whole thread

the new t3ds are like a sick joke. why fly any assault frigate, dessie or t1 cruiser anymore when a t3d can rip all of them with ease?

when i log in i see (...)

Because your station has windows?

Combat is still one dimensional within scram range.

And the margins between AB and MWD are the difference between black and white. There is very few moment to moment tactics you can employ when in a fight; fit determines what you can fight, which is rather narrow. A fight ends up in the opposing parties knowing the outcome and one party just waiting 60s to lose a ship.

Yeah, I have no problem with Garmurs. Was just pointing out, and as Crosi explained, that stats really don't help with the balance argument.

My personal solution to Garmurs, don't engage them.