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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Drew Macklin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.04 20:28:00 - [61] Edited by: Drew Macklin on 04/11/2006 20:28:17 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: G Dabak Cha is a low stat for a lot of people That's the price you pay for trying to minmax your character. I don't think anyone was exactly forcing those people to minimize their charisma. If your charisma is 3 and you want to be an FC: sucks to be you. Except that being a FC and in-game stats has absolutely NOTHING to do with eachother until now. One of the best fleet commanders I've ever known would be arbitrarily punished for his choice of an Amarr because he wanted to go PEW PEW at things when he first herd about the game. Making an in-game skill take presidence over someone's personal ability to be a fleet commander is a very dumb idea.
Jacinto Naysmith GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.04 20:36:00 - [62] Edited by: Jacinto Naysmith on 04/11/2006 20:39:40 This change is fundamentally flawed and I think it will not be a good change for EVE. Fleet Commanding is not, nor has it ever been, nor should it ever be about in game skill sets. Its about how well you can lead actual living people. Just because you spent a couple months making a little bar on the screen go higher doesn't mean you have the ability to lead other people, and trying to make EVE like that will simply make this game one step closer to being another generic MMO where stats on the screen are everything and actual thought and talent is worth nothing. Talk to actual fleet commanders and see if they're excited about this change, my guess is the overwhelming majority are not. Give them the tools to execute new strategies, don't give them a meaningless time sink just to regain a basic game function.
Delors GoonWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.04 20:43:00 - [63] Also, be prepared for this change to bring account sharing and metagaming to new heights as every 0.0 alliance creates dedicated fleet command alts that have nothing besides fleet command and cloaking skills trained and are shared between fleet commanders. This is nothing more than a ham-handed attempt to reduce lag that will do nothing but inconvenience players and bring absolutely no improvement to gameplay.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.04 20:52:00 - [64] Originally by: Alex Harumichi That's the price you pay for trying to minmax your character. I don't think anyone was exactly forcing those people to minimize their charisma. If your charisma is 3 and you want to be an FC: sucks to be you. The gang's executive officer needs these skills, not the commander. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Bein Glorious GoonWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.04 20:52:00 - [65] Requiring players to train for a few weeks (or even months) just to lead a decent sized gang is philosophically unsound, as far as game design is concerned. The benefits of leadership skill training would no longer be an incentive, but a chore. One of the biggest selling points of EVE Online has always been that, unlike other MMOs, you don't have to kill imps for fifty hours or whatever just to be useful, but these leadership requirements in this change are counterproductive for attracting new players, and possibly also keeping the old ones. Now, I'm not against all of the changes, and in fact, I think a lot of them are genuinely enticing and stay true to the game's essence: you can spend a short amount of time to become proficient, or you can invest months to specialize and become an expert. I would wager a fleet with identical numbers, ship composition, intelligence, and skill, would with the new system of squadrons, wings, fleet commanders and special features from Kali would beat a simple gang from the present Red Moon Rising gang system. The cap on gang size, however, is a fundamental flaw and will need distinct adjustment. Everyone agrees that the biggest problem with fleet combat in EVE right now is that when you get in a 100 versus 100 pilot fleet fight, you're so lagged you can't even shoot or change your ammo, or worse yet, the node crashes, and that's bad for everyone. By all means, limiting leadership bonuses by dividing fleets into squadrons is a good idea, and the new enhancements may even make fleets more effective than they are now, and thatÆs not just with concern to server stability. Despite that, even with ideal lag-free combat, people will be frustrated by the drudgery of these new requirements. (even if every change frustrates someone, no matter what it is) There is one critical mistake in the new leadership system: emphasis on skillpoints over skill. What I propose is that all the fleet related skills and mechanic changes slated for Kali stay the same, but simple gangs like in Red Moon Rising can be of any size. But despite that, gangs would not receive leadership skill "buffs", show the health statuses of gang members, maybe even not give the option of using some of the bells and whistles coming out with the new gangs in kali like "need rep" or "enemy spotted" and so on. A gang would just be just an absolutely spartan, CPU unintensive, loose collection of pilots where the only benefits are a chat channel for coordination and the ability to warp to one another. This would bring into the fold the need of a gang leader with actual talent, and fits better with the game's credo. Then, if that player wanted to get more out of gang leadership, he or she could devote his training to leadership skills to reap their benefits. If a pilot has less skillpoints than his enemy, then yes, by all means raw talent should more than make up for the skillpoint disparity, and this change loses sight of this core principle.
Avulsion Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.04 20:53:00 - [66] I for one, am happy with this change. For the longest time, I have wanted to be a fleet commander and lead my space troops to victory in epic space battles. Unfortunatly, I am a bit of an idiot, and my every attempt to lead a gang into combat has resulted in horrible soul crushing failure and death. But this is my chance to shine! My seemingly stupid refusal to start with an achura character has given me a slightly higher charisma than my minmaxing alliance mates, making me an ideal candidate for leadership. Thanks to these changes, my ingame attributes are now more important than my real life incompetance and glaring personality flaws. SP > Skill ______________ \| Too **** Big \|
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.04 20:55:00 - [67] Well well, aren't the Goons in a complaining mood tonight. It's true that up to now FCs haven't needed ingame skills. They now will. Yes, it will suck for FCs with low charisma, but hey, they've saved a lot of time up to now because of that low charisma -- now it's payback time (and I can comfortably predict the price of +4/+5 charisma implants skyrocketing ). But "no improvements to gameplay"? Bull****. Read the Oveur's comments. This will bring a lot of goodies to FCs who train up for the new system. Don't want to? Use multiple 50-person gangs. And yes, it is also very much about reducing lag. Also, it makes the stupid old "park a command ship in a safespot and have it boost 200 people" thing a lot more difficult. Which is good.
Trac3rt GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.04 20:58:00 - [68] Quote: Wing Command V - Total Training Time: 75 Days ~3 Hours (including advanced CHA skills) This is how long it will take for me to lead a gang larger than 50 people. I could get BS5 or be most of the way to T2 sniping in that time! I simply cannot justify spending that much time (~$40 in subs) to train up these skills just so I can be a FC. That quote is by myself on the private Goonfleet forums. We have our own active discussion thread on this, which is why this may look like a bit of a thread invasion. Being an FC, having the ability to organise people, and being able to lead has nothing at all to do with in game SP. It is really going to suck having to try and organise people by the amount of leadership skills they have in the precious few minutes between spotting a hostile fleet and it arriving on your doorstep. You have your reasons for this game mechanic change, but why do you have to introduce skills into the mix. Make it so ANYONE can be a fleet/wing/squad commander regardless of their skills. ___
Blitter Caldari GoonWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.04 21:06:00 - [69] If gang health updates are resource-intensive, get rid of them. No one uses them anyways, they've been buggy and useless for years, and that's a small sacrifice to make for improved performance. As for the gang bonus performance issues, that's just sloppy programming and it should be a programming fix, not a design fix. The only time you have to check for the best gang bonuses is when someone enters or leaves the gang, and you only have to do a comparison against the current best bonus. I'm speaking as a command ship pilot with advanced cha, leadership 5, and squadron command 4 already. This design is stupid. While every MMO tries to find ways to encourage social interaction, you're putting a needless artificial cap on it. You're also making it harcder for new players to learn to FC, as it looks like they'll need literally months of training just to have access to the basic gang lead functions. Designing your game around performance issues is a huge trap. Don't fall for it. If current gangs have performance issues, fix them. It would be a better use of programming time than the mess you seem set on creating.
Fubear Vogon Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.11.04 21:12:00 - [70] Edited by: Fubear on 04/11/2006 21:13:53 Originally by: Oveur Trolling the forums on Saturdays are good and beneficial for all mankind! 1: Is the old gang mechanism still available and if so has it been changed at all Old gang is still available but has the following limitations (which might change): Max 50 members, no damage state updates, no members visible in seamless map and no gang bonuess work. Some of the new stuff works, like the roles and the gang broadcast messages. <snip> 6: How much situational information is available, eg in current gangs you can see the health of all members in the same grid See above. You also get the new gang broadcast and new gang commands. <snip> 13: Can you skips levels, so can you have a squadron included in a fleet along side some wings, without needing a token wing in between. No, afaik you need to stick to the hierachy. 1: What are these new gang-roles you speak of? How do broadcast messages work? 6: New Gang commands? 13: What do you do when you have more squads than wing commanders to lead them? Do these people have to stay at home?

Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.04 21:16:00 - [71] Originally by: Fubear 13: What do you do when you have more squads than wing commanders to lead them? Do these people have to stay at home? You create a second gang - duh... This will all be coordinated on TS anyways. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Dracones GoonWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.04 21:48:00 - [72] Suggestions: 1> Reduce the rank on these skills and make the pre-reqs level 4 on the prior skill, so forming the gangs under this new structure isn't the bottle-neck. Reasoning: This will promote this squad system instead of the loose gangs and get players used to using the new system. 2> Create a host of new skills that allow you to use the enhancements of the new squad system. Gang bonus skills, skills that expand how far a command module works, skills that allow you to broadcast overview alerts(target calling, aligning, warp-to). 3> Create a bunch of new gang and command modules with nice bonuses and possibly even penalties. Some of these modules would require command ships, others might be usable on a normal ship. Keep the SP sinks out of #1 and put them into #2 and #3. This will make the system seem less like a nerf/obstacle for gang forming and more like boon for players that want to invest into leadership skills to enhance the gang gameplay experince.
Fubear Vogon Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.11.04 22:17:00 - [73] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Fubear 13: What do you do when you have more squads than wing commanders to lead them? Do these people have to stay at home? You create a second gang - duh... This will all be coordinated on TS anyways. So you have your fleet of 40 people, and then a seperate gang of stragglers who completely lose out on any of the gang advantages like broadcast messages, gang chat, being 'warpToAble' or appearing on the seamless map for the FC. All because the commanders dont have 3Mil SP in Leadership? the newgang structure is interesting, and I would like to try it out, but limiting it by skills does not bring anything positive to the game at all and only acts as a barrier to grouping people up.
Gragnor Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2006.11.04 22:59:00 - [74] I think people are mising the upside of these changes. Intgerated voice coms and gang tasking using squadrons. Is it a time-sink. Yes. Is it nasty to those who downplayed Charisma during character set up. Yes. Do game skills negate real-life skills? NO. BUT the upside of an integrated voice/gang coms system leaves me excited. Fleets are no longer blobs. You can have multiple warp ins, multiple types of attacks (nos, fleet gankers, logistics ships, fleet support ships) and gang mods and skills get a wonderful polishing. Fleet actions get a bonus, great coms. In real life, its not the best fleet commander who wins. It is he who sees the other side first, is organised and gets his ships in position that has the advantage. The ability to co-ordinate and communicate the direction if firepower separates the amateurs from the professionals. MC, BOB and the other elite corps are salivating at these changes. So should you.
Calenth Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.04 23:11:00 - [75] Originally by: Oveur No, the limit will not be increased. If you have a group of 50 people and none of them are able to create the basic squads (and if they have leadership to any extent today, they can), I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, noob rush? Wait, a noob rush is bad why exactly? Do you want new people playing this game or not? I'm just not seeing what the players gain from this change. It seems like an increase in awkwardness ("sorry, can't defend our POS right now, the guy with the FC skills is offline" "ok, we've got three gangs of fifty, each of you gang leaders warp your groups on my mark" etc.), a severe nerfing of the leadership skills as their training requirements are being effectively increased (suddenly you have to train all the gang leader skills to do what you can do right now just by having gang bonus skills trained), and the reward is a possible reduction in lag? I just don't see any good reason for hard-capping gangs at fifty. All that does is create an artificial game restriction which players will work-around anyway out of game, but which will cause annoyance and frustration in-game, without any corresponding benefit at all.
Calenth Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.04 23:14:00 - [76] Originally by: Gragnor I think people are mising the upside of these changes. Intgerated voice coms and gang tasking using squadrons. . Any organization worth its salt already has non-integrated voice coms that aren't limited by artificial game gang size constraints, on separate servers that are more reliable than the game servers anyway. The squadron and fleet bonuses I'll grant, if they weren't accompanied by the hard cap at fifty. It's great that they're giving small groups bonuses (carrots are good) but the artificial constraints on gang size generally are bad -- all they'll really do is force people to use external programs like teamspeak to coordinate large gangs.
KillmAll187	Posted - 2006.11.04 23:51:00 - [77] I find it ironic that goons have pictures of crybabys in their sigs but are crying because their blob tactic is catching a nerf. I also find it hilarious that the tables are turned on the 3 charisma base toons. Devs are killing 2 birds with one stone here. Gang lag and giant unskilled blobs. In the dictionary the word for that is: WIN-WIN
Calenth Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.05 00:18:00 - [78] Edited by: Calenth on 05/11/2006 00:22:24 Edited by: Calenth on 05/11/2006 00:20:57 Originally by: KillmAll187 I find it ironic that goons have pictures of crybabys in their sigs but are crying because their blob tactic is catching a nerf. I also find it hilarious that the tables are turned on the 3 charisma base toons. Devs are killing 2 birds with one stone here. Gang lag and giant unskilled blobs. In the dictionary the word for that is: WIN-WIN I find it comical that people who've never even been close to a POS siege or been in a gang that comes close to the proposed cap, think they're qualified to comment on changes to gang size. If gangs of fifty to two hundred players are "blobs" then every major alliance in this game -- D2, BoB, Southern Coalition (naming just the ones I've fought) "blobs" by that standard for every major POS fight. And they'll continue to do so after this change, they'll just work around it using kludgy, awkward out of game mechanisms. That's the thing. This isn't even a "nerf," it's just a nuisance. People will still have huge gangs, they'll just have to go around their own elbows to do it. We aren't complaining because we're somehow getting "nerfed" -- the work-arounds for this are obvious. We're complaining because it's going to be a d***** nuisance. And, unlike you (unless I'm missing something after a quick search of your posting history; if I am, apologies in advance), we're actually qualified to comment, because we deal with the game at the level where these changes will matter.
KillmAll187	Posted - 2006.11.05 00:23:00 - [79] Edited by: KillmAll187 on 05/11/2006 00:23:54 How do YOU know what I have and have not done? You know what they say about assuming. Cry on
Calenth Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.05 00:25:00 - [80] Originally by: KillmAll187 How do YOU know what I have and have not done? You know what they say about assuming. Cry on I'm not the one posting without a corp history, mate. If you actually are qualified to comment, then I apologize, but I searched your post history and didn't see any corp membership other than Aliastra.

Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.05 00:53:00 - [81] Personaly I have to agree with devs on this one. The new gang system will reduce the load on the servers and clear up half the nightmare of trying to lead a gang on TS. With some luck it'll be enough of a nuisance to promote smaller roving gangs to big giant blobs, blobs which made me want to puke every time I was in an alliance who asked me to fight in one. ----
Michael Nester Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.05 01:00:00 - [82] I myself like the proposed changes, however I do think that some of the skill reqs are a bit imposing. I would probly hardcap it at 100 and change the modifiers for the skills from 8x and 12x to something like 5x and 8x because having such high ranked skills just to lead a gang larger than 50 is a bit overkill, but this is why its in testing on sisi, so they can figure out what is good and what isnt ------------------------------------- The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory
Calenth Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.05 01:28:00 - [83] Edited by: Calenth on 05/11/2006 01:36:39 Originally by: Matrix Aran Personaly I have to agree with devs on this one. The new gang system will reduce the load on the servers and clear up half the nightmare of trying to lead a gang on TS. With some luck it'll be enough of a nuisance to promote smaller roving gangs to big giant blobs, blobs which made me want to puke every time I was in an alliance who asked me to fight in one. DO you really think it will, though? I think it's far more likely that it'll just increase the nightmare -- people will still use big groups of pilots, because all else being equal, a group of 100 players will beat one of fifty. They'll just have to use out of game mechanisms like teamspeak to coordinate those big groups. (edit: or spend however many months training the appropriate skills, of course. But I think out of game workarounds will be more common). You might be right about roving gang pvp, but that sort of roving gank action doesn't often go that large anyway. The fights where you really see hundreds of people on a side are the POS battles, and you'll still need everyone to show up for those.
Taaketa Frist The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.05 01:59:00 - [84] Well I will be definately training the skills cos if thats they its gonna be thats the way its gonna be. Shame on Goonswarm if you don't have at least someone on able to lead a gang you've got a large enough group to do so. I already know in my corp there are several people (all in different timezones planning to immeditately focus on getting these new skills trained) And yes the blob does need sorted These gangs please note can in theory have a max amount of 250 members in a full fleet with maxed skills. My surprise is Goonfleet complaining they won't have enough players "qualified" to run a fleet. Considering your group is 10 times greater than my own corp yet it appears we will have enough people to function under the new gang system. -------------- Dang nabit
Jan Javaar Minmatar FireStar Inc Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:20:00 - [85] One question i have not seen, it was hinted at in another question is: Does this mean, the FC has to be the ganglead????? This is horrible, what you see now is that you have one guy who is FC, AND another guy who does the invites, XO so to speak. Will it be possible to "share" the FC options out? Otherwise it will be horrible during battle: 1) FC has to call targets, using shiny new options 2) warp fleet/ wing/ squadron 3) AND at the same time get people into the fleet 4) set up infrastructure (wing/ squadron leads) because someone crashes/ has to logoff 4a) and maintain that First 2 are the real FC tasks, the other are for his staff, the XO so to speak. Has this been taken into account? Originally by: The Wizz117 Corporations ... the last 20 i joined have all disbanded after a few weeks
Calenth Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:43:00 - [86] Edited by: Calenth on 05/11/2006 02:46:02 Originally by: Taaketa Frist Well I will be definately training the skills cos if thats they its gonna be thats the way its gonna be. Shame on Goonswarm if you don't have at least someone on able to lead a gang you've got a large enough group to do so. I already know in my corp there are several people (all in different timezones planning to immeditately focus on getting these new skills trained) And yes the blob does need sorted These gangs please note can in theory have a max amount of 250 members in a full fleet with maxed skills. My surprise is Goonfleet complaining they won't have enough players "qualified" to run a fleet. Considering your group is 10 times greater than my own corp yet it appears we will have enough people to function under the new gang system. I think you're misunderstanding our argument. We will certainly have pilots with these skills. That's not really the issue. The issue is one of nuisance and convenience ("crap, the guy with FC skills crashed out. Ok, everyone form into small gangs till he gets back" "ok, all three of our euro time zone fc's had to attend to real life issues tonight. So no gangs for anybody") Anyway, if you don't want to listen to us, listen to all the other people in big alliances. We aren't the only people pointing out flaws with this design.
Taaketa Frist The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:49:00 - [87] Edited by: Taaketa Frist on 05/11/2006 02:53:51 Um... organise your big fleets better then? Plan ahead? Is it really too much to ask? And isn't the gang already formed if your FC dropped out anyway? SO why would you go ahead and reform the gang anyway, if once he reconnects he'll automatically rejoin the gang (provided its within a certain timelimit) I am listening to you but I believe your points are moot and are showing a relative level of ignorance of the new system. Please beaware that no one has been able to try it out yet simply because the skills have not been seeded yet. But everyone is bashing it on the basis that forming a large gang with bonuses now requires a skill to do so. -------------- Dang nabit
Alekanderu GoonWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.05 03:16:00 - [88] Edited by: Alekanderu on 05/11/2006 03:18:06 Edited by: Alekanderu on 05/11/2006 03:17:34 I don't see how people can claim that this will "nerf blobs", thus reducing lag. Every major alliance knows that "blobbing" (ie bringing as many ships to the fight as possible) is perhaps the single most important element of any fleet action, and this will not change. We'll still see people cramming as many ships into systems as they can (thus causing lag), it's just that it'll be more of a hassle getting them organized into gangs. This is just a heavy-handed attempt by the devs to artificially limit what the players can do in the game because they don't really have a good solution to the lag/crash problem. What's next, instanced battle arenas where fleets can duke it out? The option to warp to 0 and the upcoming hardware upgrades are great steps in the right direction. This is not.
NZAmoeba GoonWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.05 03:27:00 - [89] Originally by: Taaketa Frist Shame on Goonswarm if you don't have at least someone on able to lead a gang you've got a large enough group to do so. I already know in my corp there are several people (all in different timezones planning to immeditately focus on getting these new skills trained) My surprise is Goonfleet complaining they won't have enough players "qualified" to run a fleet. Considering your group is 10 times greater than my own corp yet it appears we will have enough people to function under the new gang system. Because the 'lol noobfleet' aspect still holds true to a certain extent. We have had members who have only been playing the game for a couple months leading fleets of 100 members. It was one of the biggest drawcards to get people to join us and play the game. These new mechanics stomp all over how we want/choose/have to play the game and force some arbitrary limit upon us and others. I thought CCP wanted everything to be open ended, to allow the players to choose their own destiny and how the politics and strategy and corp management worked in this game. When you have members having fun playing the game a certain way, you encourage that and make sure the game can handle it. You don't force the players to play it your way. If the code canÆt handle giant fleets, you fix the code, not the players.
NAFnist Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.05 03:38:00 - [90] Originally by: Oveur What the new gang limitations and the split into squadrons are addressing is the performance hit on your gang, where your gang is what's crashing the node. It's not only the damage indicators, it's also the multitude of possible gang bonuses that can now possibly come from any gang member on any stat, which may or may not be active and when active/inactive, has to be propagated to all the members of your gang, which are then calculated into anything affecting those gang members, like, getting shot at. now i get it, thanks - Regards NAFnist



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