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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Otellus
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:39:00 -
[181]
The system sucks and brings needless complications to gang warfare, which can be hectic enough as it is.
If the problem truely is lag, there has to be a better way of reducing the amount of information short of implementing this system.
Possibility would be this: Make the system more flexible. Gang starts with 1 FC. As he invites people into his gang, he should be able to give them additional tasks.
Tasks such as:
- Tactical officer: able to gangwarp people (with a max of 1 per gang perhaps if that is needed)
- Force officer: able to invite people to the gang (having more than 1 person able to do invites is a huge advantage)
- Staff officer: able to give gangbonuses to the gang. That way you add a little extra work determining who will be giving bonuses to the gang, but it would still achieve the basic objective of reducing lag if that is indeed a problem.
- Maybe others..
Having a regimented system with 10 person squads, 50 person wings is silly. Give us flexibility. And don't make it dependent on ingame skills who is FC.
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari
Bladerunners
Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:26:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 09/11/2006 11:38:53
 Originally by: Oveur
.....Answers to questions about gangs...
Omg this sounds AWESOME. TYVM CCP - U guys rock 
At last, those of us who created balanced chars (instead of ignoring cha) get to laugh at the rest - especially the Achura 
I am all for it. It's been far too easy to blob for far too long. Also anyone can take lead of a gang which makes the leadership abilites of your char insignifcant.
People don't like this new system cos they have got used to having it easy and want it to stay that way. But the truth is - It SHOULD be hard to lead a gang of 50 pilots . It SHOULD take WEEKS of training. And you SHOULD need a high cha and wil to be able to do so.
In the same way that players need to train Corp Management skills to run a Corp they should have to train Leadership skills to lead a fleet.
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Fergus Runkle
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:56:00 -
[183]
I like the organisation, I don't mind the skill training. However what I don't like is that several people in my corp that had trained in various gang assist area's have now mutually exclusive skills, we cannot complement each other.
There's a whole bunch of pilots that now have (in their eyes if not CCP's) wasted skillpoints and I can't help thinking that this will also harm the price of the Fleet Command ships as well.
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:32:00 -
[184]
1. The idea about hierachial leadership skills is not that bad. It makes sense and gives more emphasis on charisma.
2. Changing the way gang assist mods etc affect members is a very bad idea.
In fact its a big kick in the behind for a lot of people who specialised in that and will render these modules even less used then before.
While it makes quite good sense roleplay wise that only the actual leaders give thoses bonuses it is making them worthless for most people to have from a gameplay point of view.
Plus if you lack leaders with high enough skills you are forced to divide your force into several squads anyway thus limiting the people who can benefit from leadership skills anyway.
On top of that having to put your leader types in command ships makes sense rp wise, sure, but from a gameplay side its a bad idea again and be serious: Gameplay and fun is more important then roleplay in these matters for most, isnt it?
A triple nerf to leadership skills is neither needed nor a good addition to the game.
Proposal to keep the idea that positions in fleets should matter with regard to leadership without nerfing the leadership skills usefulness:
Why not make it the other way around?
Have leadership skills work like before affecting all squad/wing/fleet members and allow them to come from all members regardless if they are squad etc leaders or not.
BUT give people with leadership stuff that happen to be in a actual squad etc command position a BONUS to the effect, probable a fixed one or one that is scaled with their skill lvl for their position and the position they fill up.
e.g. a squad commander with lvl 4 leadership skill gets a 8% bonus while a fleet commander with lvl 3 fleet command skill gets say a 24% bonus etc.
Note: The bonus only applies when the pilot is in the actual command positon tho position , so e.g. a guy with fleet command skill that only leads a wing wont get the full bonus but only the one for his actual position.
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Horsefly
Alcatraz Inc.
Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:56:00 -
[185]
Heres how I'd break up the gang:
FC: Person with the best all around skills for the fleet ideally with all the basic leadership skills done.
WC1: All shield bonouses with the siege implant
Everyone in this wing should be shield based
WC2: All Armour bonouses with the Armour implant
Everyone in this wing should be armour based
Then if you have the amount of people it should have a squad of information warfare or a wing of information warefare so your ecm is better
And wait for it a skirmish wing for the fast people and tacklers.
I know it sounds kinda grand and all but I bet this is the more successfull fleet then the old way and some variation of this will be what the better alliances have.
I also remind you that the FRIGGIN REAL FC DOESNT HAVE TO BE THE INGAME FC.
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ookke
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Posted - 2006.11.09 18:36:00 -
[186]
Has someone actually been able to get gang links & bonuses working?
I tested with 1 char in a command ship running 3 various gang links, leadership 5 and wing commander lvl 1. I created a gang with ookke, transformed it into a fleet, made the command ship character squad commander... and nothing happened. No resist boosts, no inreased hp:s, nothing. Am I doing something wrong?
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SengH
Black Omega Security
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.09 20:39:00 -
[187]
it worked the patch before.. i was unable to get it to work with the new build though.
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Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
Satal Sonshi
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.11.10 00:27:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
As far as I understand it:
- Leadership now gives you +2 squad members per level (rank 1)
- Wing Commander gives you +1 squad per level (rank 8)
- Fleet Commander gives you +1 wing per level (rank 12)
Wait... So, if I have Wing Commander II, I can command (and give bonuses to) two squads?
?
We now know that anyone can form a FLEET, of 'max' size, but that fleet can only have commanders at certain levels if the skills are met. Does Wing Commander let me command multiple wings? Or does it just mean that I can command my single wing with skill to I, and Wing Commander II-V is merely wait time to get Fleet Commander I?
-= Satal =-
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Countessa D'Marko
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Posted - 2006.11.10 07:33:00 -
[189]
ok - looks like i've been screwed over here.
I fly a command ship, my alt flies a command ship, two of my corpmates fly command ships. So now CCP are telling me that only one of us (maybe 2) can have links active and doing what I bought them to do ?
Also, when I fly missions, I like to have my alt in a lootscoop, providing his base bonuses to me through a gang. Now this doesnt happen unless I make him the gang leader, accept the mission, warp to the mission, then have him warp to me.
That was a waste of a LOT of training time ... looks like I WILL have to train up weapon skills on that char after all :(
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grizouh
Tri Optimum
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 09:40:00 -
[190]
Originally by: ookke
Has someone actually been able to get gang links & bonuses working?
nope, didnŠt work for me yesterday neither.
after finally _finding_ the skill in f-d, thanks for seeding everywhere  (fleet is not seeded at all btw), and training it to lvl1 we rebuilt the gang, converted it into fleet and tried every constellation possible but no boni.
maybe a relog would had helped but i did not want to wait for the queue again at midnight our time.
honestly it does not really bother me as i am loosing the interest in eve atm due to this changes and all the lag we had till now...
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:01:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 15:05:07
I just made a post int eh ships modules section before i saw this one oops but i'll reapost my main points,
Not happy.
Simple the structure thing is cool but it has made gang bonuses and modules Required to be in large gangs and in commanding positions.
possible answer either allow gang of 2+ to be turned into fleets and add another special role of "Support" near the commanders tier where the bonuses of that support guy(s) are transferable
You have made leadership position too specialized in this
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Marangela
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Posted - 2006.11.10 17:47:00 -
[192]
What about the little guy who has only played a couple of months and trained on a few miscellaneous leadership skills to help a small gang of 2 or 3 people? Are her training skills now wasted?
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.10 18:01:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Marangela
What about the little guy who has only played a couple of months and trained on a few miscellaneous leadership skills to help a small gang of 2 or 3 people? Are her training skills now wasted?
No. That little guy just has to be designated as squadron commander for the gang, and things will work just like before. Or if you have another person whose gang bonuses you also want to include, then one of you has to train Leadership V (rank 1, ultrafast) and Wing Commander lvl 1.
After that you can have:
Person A as wing commander, giving bonuses to all.
Person B as squad commander, giving bonuses to all.
Person C as squad member, just getting bonuses and mining veldspar 
You cannot easily have all 3 donate their bonuses to each other (unless someone trains Fleet Command I, no longer trivial). But that's a fairly minor issue.
In most cases, this will change very little or nothing in small gangs. You just "manually" have to designate the people with the best gang skills as "squad commanders" and "wing commanders", instead of the game automatically using the highest bonuses. No big deal.
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Countessa D'Marko
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Posted - 2006.11.10 18:53:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
No. That little guy just has to be designated as squadron commander for the gang, and things will work just like before. Or if you have another person whose gang bonuses you also want to include, then one of you has to train Leadership V (rank 1, ultrafast) and Wing Commander lvl 1.
After that you can have:
Person A as wing commander, giving bonuses to all.
Person B as squad commander, giving bonuses to all.
Person C as squad member, just getting bonuses and mining veldspar
You cannot easily have all 3 donate their bonuses to each other (unless someone trains Fleet Command I, no longer trivial). But that's a fairly minor issue.
Can this be confirmed - because the way I read things bonuses only apply to self and down the tree.
eg1. I fly missions in a Nighthawk, which could conceivably fit a gang mod, and my alt in a claymore, with 3 or 4 mods which are activated as circumstances dictate. My understanding is that my Alt would be my commander so that his links would provide bonuses to both of us, and make my fitting a mod pointless, as at best it would only apply to me.
eg2. my corpmates and I go for a spin in low sec, NPC ratting and the odd PvP. We all take the new shiny CBC's we fly ... but who becomes the commander, which of us wants to take the time we've spent skilling our leadership skills and throw them away ...
It's Great be ME isn't it
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Maestro Ulv
Phaze-9
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:28:00 -
[195]
Regardless of the points brought up by Countessa and others here, im concerned about the size of the gang windows now.
Image of gang from another forum
Will we get some sort of ability to drag this out? I know there are probably shortcuts for these but i for one will never remember em (old age, whatever). As it stands unless you have a **** large screen and a PC to run at maxed out screen res your gonna get trouble seeing, Gang members, Gang commands and overview. I also have Drones on there to content with.
Sure you can click em up and down but in the heat of battle this might not be the best option.
So, not a whine, but will we be able to move stuff around on screen?
I'm not bored, I'm merely in the Queue. |
Dwight Hammerhead
Caldari
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.13 06:28:00 -
[196]
Otellus - word man! Thats the solution.
/sit and /dance for gang from the FC? pls!
_____________________________________________
Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig |
Darth Bob
Dark Excession
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Posted - 2006.11.13 17:50:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
Originally by: Oveur
3: What level of command do gang mod and skill bonuses propagate at and across what distance
In a fleet, it's the commanders in the hierarchy that give bonuses, Fleet commander give all fleet, squad leader only his squad etc. This is both an huge optimization and a preparation for more advanced gang functionality down the road, where you can have specialized squads (Formation-ish gameplay)
First 10x for the response. But what happens if u have say 4 ppl with dedicated command ships, using mixed gang mods, and u want your fleet to get all of them (like it is now). Now they can either be all commanders (unlikely) or its just an unnecesarry gang mod nerf? Or is it made so that if u have those ppl in the same squad/whathever with the Fleet commander (the one with fleet command, formig the blob) their bonuses are distributed to all down the chain? Or is it I misunderstood smth?
A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. It's also not the way we want to evolve gangs, the squads will get more specific bonuses if they have the correct group of roles, which directly penalize other types of roles in the squad (formation kind of thing).
If you have good commanders, you should benefit from it, if you have a load of mediocre commanders, you shouldn't benefit as much from it, if you don't have any commanders, you shouldn't benefit at all. That's just the same as traditional warfare. (Note, the level of commanders here is of course referring to their skill level, not their actual competency).
There are stress tests scheduled for the new gangs to compare with the stress tests of the old gangs on Singularity.
so, if I get this right (and I didn't bother reading the other 5 pages cause atm I'm a bit ****ed):
We have a small pvp corp with a regular gang commander who uses his 2nd account as a cov ops. We each have our roles and I have a good 5mil sp invested in leadership (3+months). Now with this new system, A) the gang commander has to train up his leadership skills, and I guess you have a point here. And B) I now have 5mil SP in leadership that are completely and in every way useless.
Is this true? and if so, can I get a refund?
end of whine
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Tani Yih
Minmatar
NED-Clan
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.11.14 13:48:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Darth Bob
We have a small pvp corp with a regular gang commander who uses his 2nd account as a cov ops. We each have our roles and I have a good 5mil sp invested in leadership (3+months). Now with this new system, A) the gang commander has to train up his leadership skills, and I guess you have a point here. And B) I now have 5mil SP in leadership that are completely and in every way useless.
Is this true? and if so, can I get a refund?
end of whine
You enjoyed eve perfectly fine up to now.. and continue to do so since there's no Kali yet. If you don't like what is coming then quit now .. no refund needed because nothing changed.
And please stop whining.
Anyway .. is there a broadcast message coming for ammo resupply? Though on second thought that might be hard given the many types of ammo available.
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Darth Bob
Dark Excession
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Posted - 2006.11.14 16:28:00 -
[199]
let me quote something from the dev blog about gangs:
"The reason for this change is to make more use of gang command/bonus based characters and to make specialized characters that focus on gangs a more common choice for players."
making it a more common choice by giving it a HUGE nerf? and absolutely useless for all but a few players in eve?
CCP please think about this some more, there's no need to nerf gang boosting skills this much
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Hugh Garse
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Posted - 2006.11.14 17:59:00 -
[200]
Has anyone even considered what this means to mining gangs? I have spent months training up an uber mining gang leader, now I will have to train even more just so his skills actually work. While I am on a rant, fix the **** mining foreman mondlink to give the EXTRA 15% as stated and Michi's so it doesnt nerf the gang bonus pls ;) |
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Siobhan Ni
Gallente
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2006.11.14 19:18:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Horsefly
Heres how I'd break up the gang:
FC: Person with the best all around skills for the fleet ideally with all the basic leadership skills done.
WC1: All shield bonouses with the siege implant
Everyone in this wing should be shield based
WC2: All Armour bonouses with the Armour implant
Everyone in this wing should be armour based
Then if you have the amount of people it should have a squad of information warfare or a wing of information warefare so your ecm is better
And wait for it a skirmish wing for the fast people and tacklers.
I know it sounds kinda grand and all but I bet this is the more successfull fleet then the old way and some variation of this will be what the better alliances have.
I also remind you that the FRIGGIN REAL FC DOESNT HAVE TO BE THE INGAME FC.
Primary target Horsefly
Seriuosly though, all command ships are gonna be primary targets if the gang bonus is only effective within a grid. Don't like that bit at all.
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Necronomicon
Caldari
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.14 19:28:00 -
[202]
CCP really have over complicated the whole thing. Squad/Wing etc should only cap maximum amount of players in gang. I fully understand the need for simplifying the server calculations in combat for gang members, but doing this at the expense of the skills that people have spent months training up for is just not on.
Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
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Acerus Malum
Encina Technologies
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.14 22:43:00 -
[203]
A question for those who can test it. Let's say you have a leader with the capability of leading a wing of however many squadrons. What happens if your wannabe fleet doesn't have enough secondary leaders capable of heading up the individual squadrons? Can you still get your wing of 11-51 pilots without having enough "underlings" in power, or what?
That leads to another question. Let's say we're already in a fleet-type gang consisting of multiple squadrons in a single wing. If one of the squadron commanders is killed, what happens to the gang as a whole? The wing commander is still leading his surviving squad commanders, who are still leading their pilots; but suddenly we have up to 10 leaderless pilots. Can they be lead by anyone at all (wing commander or fleet commander if there is one), or are they completely destitute and cut off from the fleet simply because a link in the chain of command is missing? I could also pose this question on the wing-commander level: what if a WC is killed, do up to 50 squad members suddently join into one giant leaderless/gang-bonusless mass? Also, can an equally skilled pilot claim a leadership position should something like this happen?
And that leads to the final question. In the above case where there's a catastrophic leadership gap, what happens to the gang's subchannels? I certainly hope that a half dozen text and voice channels don't suddenly merge into one...
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arjun
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.11.15 11:31:00 -
[204]
the new fleet system is overly complicated imo but i guess one can adapt.
select new squad leader in the middle of a fleetfight when gangmembers get wrecked left and right? suddenly i have 30 km less targeting range because the fc dropped?
fleetcomanders burn out easily especially on long campaigns. they are most times happy if somebody else takes over for a while. that will be much more difficult now because only the guys with the best skills are the natural choice for fC/WC/SC. that means comandship 5 and a mindlink. so i dont see the rooky fleetcomanders emerging so easy now. very bad overall.
linking the out of game ability to leed a fleet with the ingame skills is a bad and not thought out choice.
2 possible solutions come to mind:
a) let the respective SC select the person which gives out the gang boni. if he doesnt, then he is the one himself. that would bring specialised supporters to the specialised squads. like scirmish warfare guy in the tackler squad or the information warfare guy in the ew squad.
b)let the FC select 1 char in the fleet for each race so the game hasnt to check so many chars. that can be roles the fc can fill with the chars he chooses like slots. let the whoile gang profit from the boni of those chars.
in both cases give the selected gang support gu the ability to choose his own replacement beforehand for the case he drops from the gang or looses ship.
ill just mention m example. i have a maxed ew char. m other char is a trader for which i looked for other useful skills for the corp/alliance. so i let him max out information warfare with mindlink.
that char would never be any use in the frontline (gunnery + drones together 30k skillpoints)
he was alwas intended to sit at a pos to give out the boni from afar while the ew guy fights in the main battleship group. forcing the fc to be in a comandship in the middle of his battleships is disturbing. the comandships will die so often.
did i mention lag? what will happen if the fc crashhes or his game freezes as happens so often today? who will take over in this chaotic situation?
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Hugh Garse
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Posted - 2006.11.15 15:58:00 -
[205]
Ok, just did a quick test.
Char 1 - Hulk Pilot, yield 1439 per cycle
Char 2 - Mining Foreman 4, Leadership 5, Wind Command 1.
Formed gang - no 8% yield, upgraded to Fleet - No 8% yield, same grid, no extra yield.
Am I doing something wrong?
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Wicaeed
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:32:00 -
[206]
Gang Boosting Bonuses
Gang bonuses can now only be received from commanders in a gang that has been converted to a fleet, which is quite a change to current gang bonus mechanics. The reason for this change is to make more use of gang command/bonus based characters and to make specialized characters that focus on gangs a more common choice for players.
Commanders can only give gang bonuses and receive their own bonuses but can not receive bonuses from other commanders or normal members. A normal Squad Member how ever can receive bonuses from three possible parties: his Squad Commander, his Wing Commander or the daddy Fleet Commander himself.
What? I'm sorry but this is stupid sounding, especially the part about CCP wanting gang bonus speced characters to be played more. By dividng the plyayers like they are proposing, it will only further limit the usefullness of Command Ship characters: They will only be useful leading gangs.
A solution to this is simple: Make 4 ship slots per fleet for Command Ships. A spot for Information Warfare, Siege Warfare, Armored Warfare and Skirmish Warfare ships. Any command ships placed in these spots will give their bonuses to the entire fleet.
I may be wrong, but the way TomB explains the new usefullness of Fleet COmmand characters seems to me that you can only have one per fleet providing bonuses.
That dosn't seem too useful to me..
I also don't understand the reasoning behind removing gang bonuses all together from gangs. It makes no sense at all.
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Darth Bob
Dark Excession
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Posted - 2006.11.15 21:09:00 -
[207]
Originally by: arjun
a) let the respective SC select the person which gives out the gang boni. if he doesnt, then he is the one himself. that would bring specialised supporters to the specialised squads. like scirmish warfare guy in the tackler squad or the information warfare guy in the ew squad.
well CCP, seems like we have a winner here, let the highest ranking officer choose up to 4 'specialists', his own skills will be used for every role not assigned to a specialist.
This will make leadership characters a more popular choice, not your proposed nerf
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Lebouse
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Posted - 2006.11.15 21:30:00 -
[208]
Quote:
Gang bonuses can now only be received from commanders in a gang that has been converted to a fleet, which is quite a change to current gang bonus mechanics. The reason for this change is to make more use of gang command/bonus based characters and to make specialized characters that focus on gangs a more common choice for players.
Commanders can only give gang bonuses and receive their own bonuses but can not receive bonuses from other commanders or normal members. A normal Squad Member how ever can receive bonuses from three possible parties: his Squad Commander, his Wing Commander or the daddy Fleet Commander himself.
So no gang bonuses are received unless a gang reaches "fleet" size?
So this means that small gangs (maybe only squadron size) of hunters, pvpers and miners cannot get benefit of gang bonuses? If true, not very well thought out.
Only the "commanders" pass along bonuses? So better make sure the guy with the best skills for bonuses is leading the gang. Again, not well thought out.
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Taketa De
Gallente
Seneca Federation
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.16 02:57:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Lebouse
So no gang bonuses are received unless a gang reaches "fleet" size?
So this means that small gangs (maybe only squadron size) of hunters, pvpers and miners cannot get benefit of gang bonuses? If true, not very well thought out.
Only the "commanders" pass along bonuses? So better make sure the guy with the best skills for bonuses is leading the gang. Again, not well thought out.
Well it makes sense that the best person with leadership skills is the leader :P. Anyway, "fleet" size seems to be 2 ships, so that shouldn't be a problem.
---
The Advanced Drone Control Panel. |
Horsefly
Alcatraz Inc.
Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.11.16 13:13:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Siobhan Ni
Originally by: Horsefly
Heres how I'd break up the gang:
FC: Person with the best all around skills for the fleet ideally with all the basic leadership skills done.
WC1: All shield bonouses with the siege implant
Everyone in this wing should be shield based
WC2: All Armour bonouses with the Armour implant
Everyone in this wing should be armour based
Then if you have the amount of people it should have a squad of information warfare or a wing of information warefare so your ecm is better
And wait for it a skirmish wing for the fast people and tacklers.
I know it sounds kinda grand and all but I bet this is the more successfull fleet then the old way and some variation of this will be what the better alliances have.
I also remind you that the FRIGGIN REAL FC DOESNT HAVE TO BE THE INGAME FC.
Primary target Horsefly
Seriuosly though, all command ships are gonna be primary targets if the gang bonus is only effective within a grid. Don't like that bit at all.
As far as I know its not a grid its the solar system like now. But in any case I'm always primary as soon as they figure out I'm there. No biggy. Just means I gotta go to empire once again.
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