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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.06 08:37:00 -
[121]
Originally by: TOGAKURE Daisuke Edited by: TOGAKURE Daisuke on 06/11/2006 06:33:10 Here are my screenshots from the Fleet test we had on the weekend at the SiSi with some Supers:
http://www.blosphere.net/~sty/eve/SiSi/
The screenshots about the gangs start from somewhere middle.
Try to figure out some features from the screenshots, I don't want to start telling everything here. So look at the pics first, and then ask questions. I'll try to answer what I experienced.
(hi Sty! :)
Cool, thanks for the pics. I have to say that looks very hot, once all the bugs have been ironed out. Being able to quickly assign targets, give "align to" commands, ask for help etc and have it easily visible who is saying what is something any gang/fleet commander would love to have.
I still love the idea that this needs Charisma, and like the idea of skills. Maybe the old-style gang limit should be increased a bit to let the Goons have their unskilled zillion-person gangs... but dunno. But in any case, the new style squadrons and fleets requiring skills is very good imho -- it's very much a mini-profession now; now it will just *also* need in-game skills, not just ooc. Maybe the rank8 and rank12 reqs are excessive, but otoh with the current sisi ranks it's trivial to train for 40 person gangs, after that it gets slower. I'm not sure if it should be all that easy, skillwise, to lead bigger fleets than that. Dunno.
Maybe rank6 and rank10 would be a small bit more reasonable?
In any case, I'm personnally very much looking forward to this, especially now after those screenshots. Cool stuff.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.06 08:42:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Vera Nosfyu
No one wants to have to train for that long just to do what they had always been doing.
That's the thing. We'll still have the old-style gangs, requiring no skills. Granted those are limited to 50 max and don't give bonuses anymore, but they still allow you to do most of the old stuff. Coordinating multiple 50-person gangs via TS is not rocket science.
The new stuff is *not* "what they have always been doing", judging by the info we have so far there will be a lot of very nice new toys and abilities for the gang/fleet commanders. If you want your hands on those, you get the skills. I think it's totally reasonable. Though the ranks could be scaled down a *bit* (not much, it's important to make Charisma important now and not just a "minimize this" stat).
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Aralis
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 09:05:00 -
[123]
Lot of nice stuff but some concerns. Wouldn't it be better for everyone - and save more stress on the servers if you:
1) Abolish the old style gangs altogether. 2) Let anyone form the new style gangs but only give the fancy features and bonuses to those with the skills?
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Gramtar
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.06 12:10:00 -
[124]
Beyond what's already been stated (remove basic gang size limitation, reduce rank of new skills), I have a suggestion. More basic functionality, things that would help gang and fleet commanders much more, is missing:
1. Fleet composition. If you've formed a gang, or taken leadership after joining, it's the first thing you ask. How many Battleships do I have? How many EWAR ships? Who are my covops and dictor pilots? Creating a display (preferably that only Fleet / Wing / Squad leaders can view) that shows your gang's composition would be a great addition.
2. Disconnect / leave gang notification. Did someone just crash after jumping into that system?
That's all I can think of at this time. Perhaps others can suggest additional pragmatic needs.
These are my personal views and do not represent my Corporation or Alliance |
Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.06 12:31:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Satal Sonshi
I Fully Support Dracones Recommendations
I think this is one of the most insightful recommendations I've yet read, and I would like to promote it. The "gang-size" and "organization" should not be heavily limited by the game. It's the *bonuses* that should be limited.
Eve's skill system is predicated on the thought that you can get access to whatever you want fairly easily (e.g. I have a BS with 1.8M skillpoints), but you may or may not be particularly effective with what you have until you train the specialist skills.
This is how it will become as well, with the new cascading gang bonuses, the fleet commander trains the skill to create the gang, and then has to train the other (support) leadership skills to make the most of their position within the fleet as far as gang bonuses go.
Skill requirements to form the fleets should be dropped completely, the people who put those with leadership skills at the top of the pyramid will have an advantage over those who do not. Regular FCs and Wing Commanders will still be encouraged to train the leadership skills to give the best bonuses to the gangs they can.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:43:00 -
[126]
I think it's reasonable to only require rank 4 in the pre-requisit to learn the next stage up.
i.e. leadership 4 to train wing command 4 to train fleet command or whatever the order is :)
The true specialists can then put in the extra time if required (do we need a level above fleet command? Armada Command FTW!) to get the last few squads/wings in but at least a basic fleet can be trained for without.
Level 4 on each gives: 8 man squads in 4 squad wings in 4 wing fleets: 8*4*4 = 32*4 = 132
Level 5 in each gives: 10*5*5 = 250
So there is still a big call there for people to start training them up for the bigger fleets.
You really need to be able to delegate roles to gang members - i.e. make certain people able to assign targets, or gang warp, or invite new members - so that the work of running the fleet can be spread out.
Zarch AlDain
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Calenth
Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.06 14:25:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Calenth on 06/11/2006 14:31:31
Originally by: Zarch AlDain The true specialists can then put in the extra time if required (do we need a level above fleet command? Armada Command FTW!)
Almost certainly, if the gang size caps stay in.
edit to clarify: gangs that large are rare even for us, I'm not sure if I've ever been in a gang over that 250 person proposed cap, but I just hate the idea of artificial limitations like that. If six hundred eve players want to have a 300-person-per-side battle, why do fifty guys on each side have to be in the Runt Squad, just because of an arbitrary game restriction? |
momotaro
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.06 15:05:00 -
[128]
so let me get this right in a summary:
- CCP want us to train so we can have gang boosts from a command ship. - isnt there a matter of time before most of us have gang skills, what then? we find oureselves in the same point we left. - who needs health bar in gang? i havent opened the gang window in overview in almost a year. - why do i feel this is just a delay until CCP can fix the server code issues? and all this is done under the cover of a "re-design"
just my 2 cents, and also i'm trying to be as less acidic about this because posts or threads tend to dissapear or get locked. (*)(*) The nail that stands out gets hammered.
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Bein Glorious
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.06 19:37:00 -
[129]
It seems to me that with the ability to broadcast messages like "I need to be repaired" or "I'm running low on cap", you could do away with the gang health status list entirely, and I don't think anyone would complain about losing it.
Sig removed, lacks game related content. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler TRIP DRIVE ACTIVE |
Satal Sonshi
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.11.06 21:04:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Fubear
Skill requirements to form the fleets should be dropped completely, the people who put those with leadership skills at the top of the pyramid will have an advantage over those who do not. Regular FCs and Wing Commanders will still be encouraged to train the leadership skills to give the best bonuses to the gangs they can.
Pegged it!
Forming fleets (of any size!) should not be the challenge. Making those fleets *more advantageous* than their enemies is what leaders should be training for.
I support ZERO skill requirements for gang formation (of all sizes), with all skill training relating directly to fleet bonuses.
This is the best way to propagate the fleet system into the EVE universe. Give organizational capabilities to the players, and then let *us* figure out what to do with them.
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Tolomea
Gallente 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:25:00 -
[131]
Until the devs decide to give us more info we need to do more testing to acquire the info ourselves. It's no where near as cut and dry as it would appear. For example last night I with no leadership skills what so ever formed a fleet with 2 wing commanders. Granted there wern't many people in those wings and we didn't get the time to experiment much to see if they were fully functional. But still there was me and my 2 wings.
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Kerules Yor
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:55:00 -
[132]
I'll echo what's already been said, just to emphasise that many people are concerned.
Why limit the size of plain gangs if you've removed the overhead that made large gangs expensive on the servers? The limit will do nothing but make FCs sigh and form another gang of 50, and coordinate everyone over Teamspeak/Ventrillo like we do already.
Fleets, as I see them, are less about getting 250 players together and more about completely nerfing gang bonuses. Currently everyone in gang gets all the best bonuses available. If you have 10 guys in battlecruisers running different warfare links, they all apply to everyone. In a fleet the soldiers get gang bonuses from AT MOST 3 people. One of those people has to train up a dreadnought-rank skill for the privilege of sitting in a safespot somewhere. Another of those is the squad leaders, of which you need one for every 10 players. It's very unlikely that all 25 squad leaders will want or be able to fly command ships, so you're down to just 2 people giving gang bonuses to each soldier.
And that's IF you find 5 command ship pilots who want to train the charisma equivalent of Battleship V, and one with the CHA equivalent of Dreadnought V.
The new Counterstrike-like broadcast commands seem cute but ultimately useless. "Enemy spotted!" Okay, where? how many? what ship types? are they alligned on anything, jumping in/jumping out? All this needs to be typed in gang/squad chat anyway. Or more likely, spoken on Teamspeak. These tools don't make up for the huge multiplayer SP-sink required for fleets, or the added complexity of organising a fleet.
Bottom line, I think the changes are more likely to dissuade players from specialising in leadership/gang assists. If gang bonuses are nerfed anyway, people will just use plain gangs.
As suggestions for improvement: 1) lower the rank of the fleet skills would be a start, so they are more in line with the advantages fleets provide. Or make the prereqs for advancement at level 4. and/or 2) increase the effectiveness of gang bonuses, or give fleets more advantages.
I would do (1) or both. You're killing gang bonuses either way by limiting their spread, no sense in being overly brutal with the SP-sink.
Other suggestions for features: I liked Gramtar's Fleet composition idea. Expanding on that, I'd like the ability to rename squads/wings for organisation purposes. Naming squads "snipers", "tacklers", "ewar-a" "ewar-b", etc. would help the FCs see at a glance how many they have and which squads to place new members in.
This is a bigger change but, instead of the burden always being on squad leaders to invite and move members, allow members to request transfer to other squads/wings, and the leader would only have to click "okay". In conjunction with named squads it would make it much easier for pilots to sort themselves into squadrons by roles.
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Kiah Khan
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2006.11.07 00:37:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Bein Glorious It seems to me that with the ability to broadcast messages like "I need to be repaired" or "I'm running low on cap", you could do away with the gang health status list entirely, and I don't think anyone would complain about losing it.
Actually, one of the things players were asking for just a few months ago, was a way to boost logistic ships. Logistic ships are useless because it's nearly impossible to find and target the friendly person who needs armor/shield/cap ect before they are blown up. This way, logistic ships can at least try to be used in gangs and rely on their fellow members to alert they need armor or shield.
I'm not saying it will work. But it's certainly not useless.
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Kiah Khan
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2006.11.07 00:52:00 -
[134]
Another quick question. What happens to the "Squadron Command" Skill? Right now you need Leadership 5 before you get squad command, and Squad command 5 before you get Wing Command. But on the testing server it looks like Squad command is sorta being left out of the whole gang command features. Will that skill be renamed? or given another use?
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Gordon Red
SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.07 06:16:00 -
[135]
Remove the new skills as a requirement, but set on the new system you have developped!
The FC, does NEEDING all this new management options (damage reports, help orders, assign targets), but to be able to do his job he has to skill 1-2+ month (assuming he has choosen the right attribute some years ago)?!?
A good FC is a rare gem and with this new skills it is "impossible" to cut this gem into shape. The system itself is interesting and let a good FC shine even brighter.
Blobwars are boring and not good for the server (and so not good for us), but you shouldn't limit the cunning players due to skill requirement.
With this compromise you can enhance the game, with this skill system you will destroy very much.
(The game will change anyway, smaller corps/alliances with skilled player will be more effective as today against big bloblike corps/alliances)
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evistin
Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.07 06:47:00 -
[136]
I honsetly do not see the point of an artifical cap like this.
There is nothing stoping 200 players forming 20 10 man groups. If you think this is a C&C nightmare its actually a vast improvement to actually management, just like the army has section leaders and platoon commanders.
This will require alots of people to train skills, but when properly manage, I bet good money, we will see even BIGGER blob wars. -----------
Management and Leadership |
Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.11.07 09:56:00 -
[137]
I like the new gang feature to some extent.
When doing antipirate - operations it is often necessary to split up in two or three sub - fleets but still stay under one command. This way it can be done.
But the extreme training times must be fixed. Multipliers > 5 are not acceptable.
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Decairn
Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 13:31:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Decairn on 07/11/2006 13:32:19
Originally by: Kiah Khan Another quick question. What happens to the "Squadron Command" Skill? Right now you need Leadership 5 before you get squad command, and Squad command 5 before you get Wing Command. But on the testing server it looks like Squad command is sorta being left out of the whole gang command features. Will that skill be renamed? or given another use?
It's been renamed to Warfare Link Specialist. --Decairn
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Tolomea
Gallente 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.11.07 13:33:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Tolomea Until the devs decide to give us more info we need to do more testing to acquire the info ourselves. It's no where near as cut and dry as it would appear. For example last night I with no leadership skills what so ever formed a fleet with 2 wing commanders. Granted there wern't many people in those wings and we didn't get the time to experiment much to see if they were fully functional. But still there was me and my 2 wings.
Originally by: TomB
You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players.
Told you so, well that puts a big whole in all the "sky is falling"/"world is ending" posts.
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Celestis Kudzu
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:37:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Celestis Kudzu on 07/11/2006 14:37:50
Quote: You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players.
I hope this hasn't been covered but how are gang bonuses applied if you only have enough skill points to give say 20 bonuses in a gang of 60? Hopefully there will be a way to selectively apply bonuses to gang members. Or is it an all or nothing application where if you cannot support everyone under you with bonuses then no bonuses are applied?
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:40:00 -
[141]
Heheheheheheh. Whining 4tl :P
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Ralitge boyter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:09:00 -
[142]
Please be so kind as to take into account laptop users...
How can one ever have drones, a gang and a enemy at the same time...
Sorry guys but we need to be able to separate the overview and the drones/gang/fleet boxes at least one of them to over come the handicap of smaller screens.
I know, and yes I will, buy a better computer but only when Vista is there not just jet... so till that time I am stuck with a small screen and can forget about being useful as a fleet member as I just miss half the screen ------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me. |
Harisdrop
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:36:00 -
[143]
TomB explains
Thanks TomB now we understand
Originally by: Tuxford .....stuff... Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:40:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Oveur What the new gang limitations and the split into squadrons are addressing is the performance hit on your gang, where your gang is what's crashing the node. It's not only the damage indicators, it's also the multitude of possible gang bonuses that can now possibly come from any gang member on any stat, which may or may not be active and when active/inactive, has to be propagated to all the members of your gang, which are then calculated into anything affecting those gang members, like, getting shot at.
Silly suggesting but as I read what you are saying all gang related bonus calculations are being redone per session change, which is causing node crashes and/or extreme server stress. Can't you simply change that dynamic so that those calculations are only done when a gang member joins or leaves the gang? That would solve a lot of wasted cpu overhead I'm tempted to think at the cost of sacrificing 'the have to be in same system to receive bonusses requirement'. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
Dwight Hammerhead
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:07:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Dwight Hammerhead on 07/11/2006 16:13:11 Originally by: TomB --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aahaha, which is a nerf to gang module users, which as i said are not always the actual fleet commanders. Make a seperate role for thos ppl ffs, this is a bloody stupid and unnecesarry nerf.
An intereseting discussion here, and a lot of valid points and nice suggestions, although i still stand by what I said earlier - reward the high Charisma ppl, dont punish the rest. Ppl in Command ships are not always Fleet Commanders. I fly mine because I like giving bonuses to the other ppl, not because I want to lead a fleet. I cant. If this system enters the game as it is considered atm it will be extremely stupid and frustrating. Gimping ppl and removing functuonality is not the way to go just because u cant fix your server problems any other way.
I dont really plan to burn my head now and think of possible solutions. Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl thing they would have actually opened a discussion a long time ago, showing their idea and waiting for feedback and suggestions. Right now they are just asking us to test the bugs, noone will lift a finger simply because they dont have the time to change it. It will just enter in Kali, screw a lot of things, and they will rearange it again in Kali 2 when ppl are irritated enough. Thats how all those major changes work. Good job ppl, keep it up.
p.s. Yes, I want a skill that allows me to have more convos open per level. Will be da shi_zzlick! _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:12:00 -
[146]
Love the new gang system, however.... How is this supposed to fit on your screen, especially when you are a drone user... ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
Miranda Duvall
Gallente OPM Holdings
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:50:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Miranda Duvall on 07/11/2006 16:53:08 Would it be possible to get a skill rename? Just for clarity..
As it stands now:
you can command a fleet: Fleet Command you can command a wing: Wing Command you can command a squadron: Leadership you are very good with gang modules: Squadron Command
Please change it into: Current "Leadership" becomes "Squadron Command" Current "Squadron Command" becomes "Warfare Link Specialist"
All the names then actually reflect what they do, keeping the current "Squadron Command" as is will generate a lot of confusion, and if you're ever going to change it, now is the time, since it's all new to all of us anyway.
skills top 20 My skill list |
Horsefly
Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.11.07 17:07:00 -
[148]
seems in the new dev blog forum thread that you will be able to make upto a 256 man gang. You just wont be able to assign a FC until somone has enough skills for that. that means noone will be able to give everyone there gang bonuses in the beginning. I personnally will like this idea now. I was kinda opposed to it before finding out that you can make a 256 man fleet in the begining just not have the cool stuff until you get the skills.
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Kiah Khan
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2006.11.07 17:36:00 -
[149]
It is my hope that with this new system most people in the gang will be able to warp into combat with our overview's closed. By this, I mean that if we can call targets out in the broadcast, or via other means, we won't need to load overview and just rely on targeting through those links.
I haven't been able to log into SiSi yet, but is this a possibility? And if so, will closing overview help to save space on the right?
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Effei Gloom
Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:35:00 -
[150]
i would like to see a chain of command in gang,
so when the actuell "boss" lost his ship the next takes automatic leadership
the "boss" should be able to set up a chain of 5 pilots to follow his leadership, therefore can link targets into gang overview,
and:
How is it with a passive targeter that even works when you are clocked? -> fleet commander would not be primaried all the time. I would even preferre a new ship class = cov ops fleet command ships. You should have 250km lock range target even if clocked and not possibly to fitt any guns :)
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