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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Darkartz
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:44:00 -
[1]
Can anyone tell me whats happening with gangs in Kali i dont seem to be able to find a sticky about it, and seen as there is no way to search....
dont flame meh, for being a n00b :P
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:48:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Patch86 on 31/10/2006 11:50:42 Gangas appear to be being split into multiple tiers, each with a lmit on member numbers.
(IIRC) People (maximum of 10) go into Squadrons. Squadrons go into Wings (maximum of......er......can't rememebr) and Wings go into a Fleet (the top level, 1 per gang).
Theres a set of useful screenies, I'll find the link.
EDIT: Here. The top middle three. -----------------------------------------------
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Joram McRory
Caldari eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:58:00 -
[3]
Hurahh more "must have" skills
just what the game needs...... Joram
My Photography site |
Darkartz
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:04:00 -
[4]
Thanks guys ;-)
really appreicate it.
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Hunter.
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:21:00 -
[5]
Guess we need a sticky for the new Gang system as well :)
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Easy steps to Bug Reporting
Good repro steps are my friend ! |
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:25:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 31/10/2006 13:26:48
Originally by: Joram McRory Hurahh more "must have" skills
Well, I don't see a rank 1 skill being all that bad. With Leadership V you can control a 10-person gang, and that's trivial to train for unless your Charisma is minimal -- in which case everyone gets to laugh at your "optimized" character
After you have that Leadership V, each rank of the next-level skill gives you 10 new gangmates. Yes, it's a rank-8 skill, but training the first one or two levels is still a matter of hours or a day, max.
After that you have 20-30 people, that's quite enough for most normal situations. Fleet commanders will have to train more, of course... but that's the point.
Originally by: Joram McRory just what the game needs......
Actually, the game does need skills that reward people with high Charisma.
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Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:52:00 -
[7]
A significant change in the way gangs are formed and managed will have a massive impact on the way that large scale combat is conducted in Eve.
I have read massive amounts of speculation on the topic, but the ONLY information we have on this massive change in one of the most basic game mechanics are the new skills on Sisi (http://imagesocket.com/view/leader6e1.png) and the following comment by Oveur.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=382
Quote: We also have the Combat Organization project consisting of the seamless map, improved system scanning, new gang hierarchy (fleets, squadrons) and better situational awareness through gang information broadcasts and integrated voice communication.
From the above you can easily see that each squad can contain up to 10 people, each wing can contain up to 5 squads (50 people), and each fleet 5 wings (250 people).
Current fleets in alliance combat are regularly around 80-150 people. Using my own stats (only 6 charisma, starting with learning 3), it would take over 60 days to train Fleet Command V allowing me create a gang larger than 40 people (including advanced learning).
Obviously it is not possible to test these skills AT ALL on the test server, so I have a number of questions regarding the implementation of these skills that really need answering:
1) Are we going to be forced to use the new gang hierarchy and skills, or will we be able to create gangs as we can now and lose any tactical advantages of the new system?
2) What exactly are the advantages of the new system? What will we be able to do that we cannot currently do with a small amount of organization on teamspeak?
3) How are invites handled with the new system, who does it?
4) Assuming I have Fleet Command V; will I have to find and organise 5 people with Wing Command V, and 25 people with Squad Command V to get 250 in gang, or will my skills cascade down to Wing/Squad commanders?
5) What happens to the fleet if a Fleet/Wing/Squad commander crashes?
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Harisdrop
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi .stuff.........
Actually, the game does need skills that reward people with high Charisma.
Remember being the gang lead does not make you the FC. You are the cordinator/supervisor. I hope tho it gives you great powers for the voice comms ingame.
Originally by: Tuxford .....stuff... Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:56:00 -
[9]
Is it really verified that the leadership skill changes affect "normal" gangs or is just for new functionality?
Maybe you can still form gangs like before but to to get the new features with tiered gangs you need to have the skills for it.
Can't be hard to test for those of you on test server. Just form a gang without the gang leader have any leadership skills and see what will happen.
lol I guess everyone is to busy with playing with the new ships.
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Viscount Hood
British Space Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.31 14:02:00 -
[10]
Is there going to be any formation forming commands e.g. form wing formation, left echelon etc..? This could be applied to different wings. This might reduce the problems of everyone piled on top of everyone else after gang warps. ...and it would look pretty too. ------------------------------------------------
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Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.31 15:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bermag Can't be hard to test for those of you on test server. Just form a gang without the gang leader have any leadership skills and see what will happen.
The problem is that last time I checked you could not form a gang on the test server.
You also cannot train 70+ days worth of skills to actually test anything.
Even if you could, getting 70+ people on the test server at the same time is almost impossible.
This is why I would like to have a developer step in and answer some of our questions, because is is a major change to a very low level game mechanic which we have no way to test.
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Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.31 17:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hunter. Guess we need a sticky for the new Gang system as well :)
What we need is a dev clarification on how the new gang system is supposed to work.
Can you still form basic gangs with no skills, but get none of the bonuses of being in an organized command, or is all gang formation subject to the new skill requirements?
Does the Leadership skill still convey a targeting speed bonus? If so, through what scale of command does that bonus propagate?
Through what scale of command do warfare skill bonuses propagate?
Through what scale of command do gang mod bonuses propagate? Are there scope differences for fleet commands versus field commands/T1 battlecruisers?
What chat options are available for top-down communication at the squadron, wing, and fleet levels?
What control options (warp to, et al) are available at the squadron, wing, and fleet levels?
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Magunus
The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.10.31 17:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Guurzak
Originally by: Hunter. Guess we need a sticky for the new Gang system as well :)
What we need is a dev clarification on how the new gang system is supposed to work.
Can you still form basic gangs with no skills, but get none of the bonuses of being in an organized command, or is all gang formation subject to the new skill requirements?
Does the Leadership skill still convey a targeting speed bonus? If so, through what scale of command does that bonus propagate?
Through what scale of command do warfare skill bonuses propagate?
Through what scale of command do gang mod bonuses propagate? Are there scope differences for fleet commands versus field commands/T1 battlecruisers?
What chat options are available for top-down communication at the squadron, wing, and fleet levels?
What control options (warp to, et al) are available at the squadron, wing, and fleet levels?
Excellent questions, particularly the last two, IMO.
By the way, if you read that last blog from Oveur, he mentions that a lot of lag is caused by propogating damage information to gang members in very large gangs. I'd never thought of that before, but it makes sense. Basically broadcasting a message to every member of your gang every time you take any damage would be a lot of traffic in a 200 member gang. ---
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' |
Kaathar Rielspar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.31 23:43:00 -
[14]
and just to tack on to the end of that post with the excellent questions:
what happens if the gang leader with all the skills has to log out/CTD's/router blows up whilst in said 'big gang'
does the whole gang get disbanded?
more info from official channels would be good ____________________
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Originally by: Eximius Josari If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs?
Overpriced Nos victims.
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Satal Sonshi
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.10.31 23:56:00 -
[15]
I want to state that I think the questions asked in this thread *NEED* to be answered, systematically and in a single post; especially the ones regarding whether or not the Fleet System is a Replacement of the Gang System, or merely a Supplement.
That simple answer will change every bit about how people discuss this new change. If it's a supplement, and gangs are kept as they were before (even generally), then we can merely discuss how to best create the system and balance it and expand it for awesomeness. If, however, it is a replacement, then we are to discuss whether or not it's going to screw up a lot of the effort that people put into the game or not, and whether the balance is really helped by this change. There is a lot of confusion here, because the planned changes are not specifically detailed.
So, if you please Dev's, which is it: Replacement, or Supplement? And how so?
-= Satal =-
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Decairn
Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:19:00 -
[16]
It shouldn't be hard to test out wing command - many people have leadership V already, will only take a second to train wing command I and II.
As said above, lots of questions, no answers yet, just conjecture. --Decairn
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Satal Sonshi I want to state that I think the questions asked in this thread *NEED* to be answered, systematically and in a single post; especially the ones regarding whether or not the Fleet System is a Replacement of the Gang System, or merely a Supplement.
That simple answer will change every bit about how people discuss this new change. If it's a supplement, and gangs are kept as they were before (even generally), then we can merely discuss how to best create the system and balance it and expand it for awesomeness. If, however, it is a replacement, then we are to discuss whether or not it's going to screw up a lot of the effort that people put into the game or not, and whether the balance is really helped by this change. There is a lot of confusion here, because the planned changes are not specifically detailed.
So, if you please Dev's, which is it: Replacement, or Supplement? And how so?
well put
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.11.01 05:46:00 -
[18]
Edited by: mazzilliu on 01/11/2006 05:46:46 If this sort of thing works out the way I think it does, that means me along with most people who can run multiple clients will be using a high charisma alt as a gang/fleet commander, perhaps in a covert ops, sitting in a safe, just so one can lead gangs without diverting their skilltraining(or, in my case, i can enjoy my ns 3 charisma achura character).
am i mistaken or is this going to become commonplace?
and is there any word on whether or not the rank level of those skills will get lowered?
i understand the intent of this sytem, but out-of-game communications systems and current alliance sizes pretty much make sure there will be no max gang size, whether or not it's supported by the game.
KILL MEMES |
Paigan
Amarr Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.01 09:49:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Joram McRory Hurahh more "must have" skills
just what the game needs......
The term "must have skills" is complete nonsense.
you "must" have a LOT of skills if you want to do ANYthing except hanging around in a noob ship. Thats the essence of the game, got that?
But you don't NEED to have most of the skills. You don't need to produce, research, transport or fight. Above all other, there is NO MUST to train for fleet command on every single basic fighter.
"No more must have skill" is just a complaint from very simple people you don't want to have to train any fruther skills to keep their relatively maxed out state in their niche. ... or fear change in principle (and you know what that means) -- This game is still in beta stage |
Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.01 10:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Decairn It shouldn't be hard to test out wing command - many people have leadership V already, will only take a second to train wing command I and II.
Last time I check you CAN NOT FORM A GANG ON THE TEST SERVER
The only way we are going to get any questions answered is if a developer comes in here and answers them for us. This is a major change that I am extremely concerned about, and we are completely in the dark with almost every bit of information.
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Kooraia
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Posted - 2006.11.01 22:46:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Fubear The only way we are going to get any questions answered is if a developer comes in here and answers them for us. This is a major change that I am extremely concerned about, and we are completely in the dark with almost every bit of information.
/signed
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Areconus
Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.11.01 23:54:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Areconus on 02/11/2006 00:02:08 Edited by: Areconus on 01/11/2006 23:56:00 This is kind of bull**** to be honest. Why the hell are you limiting our gang sizes CCP? Why the hell are you making us train these skills up? The gang system before was absolutely fine, why arent you concentrating your efforts on solving more impeding problems? Will there be new chat channels, likw wing chat and squadron chat? That will only make combat too complicated, trying to talk to people and ****.
Instead, why not take out the skills, take out the stupid ass limit on gang size. How about something like 10 people per squad, maybe 5 squads in a wing, and unlimited wings. And everyone still uses one gang chat. AND A KEY ISSUE: Make it so everyone can still warp to everyone else in the gang, like warping to someone in a totally different wing.
Makes it more realistic, because its every bit as coordinated as before, but is kinda fun to fly around with little squads of people.
I guess, the way it is now, you can only have....250ppl in a gang? With max skills, just absolutely pointless
Gloria Stitz-
"Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously" |
Kaahles
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Posted - 2006.11.02 08:25:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Kaahles on 02/11/2006 08:26:45 I don't like the member limit at all...
but it looks like we have a decission that it will come with Kali so we all have to live with it. I'm training for command ships btw. so i will have some leadership skills to open gangs BUT the limit should be a bit higher. Atm from the Leadership skill gives yo +2 gangmembers and that is not realy much. should be raised to 5 or 10 per level */me runs away into his bomb shelter*
Reasons: - better for new players - better for mining gangs (would be not nice if everyone has to train skills for leading a squadron only to get gang bonuses on mining) - if there is a nice pvp gang running and the leader get's connection problems or has to go offline the whole gang has no leader and can't continue at full force |
Mirasta
Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.02 09:46:00 -
[24]
Im guessing this is mwnt to be used allong with the VOIP chat so that you Squad Leaders can assign 5 people to do a ceartain job with out telling the other 250 people in gang. Having all the T2 snipers in one group and all the support in another ECT ECt.
It could actualy lead to a more organised blob in the end if you have people with good leadership skills.
And to cruley punish all those people that decided they wanted to have stupid starting attributes.
Of couse, You are now reading my sig. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 10:04:00 -
[25]
If done properly, these changes could give massively greater functionality to fleets, and allow commanders of large fleets to easily delegate tasks to sub-commanders.
I for one am keen to see how it all works.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Xaarist
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 10:19:00 -
[26]
well, this question might be a rhetorical one, since we all know nobody crashes from CCP's servers. ever. no.
but what happens if the person with skills who formed a gang crashes. will the gang disband, will it continue to exist but no new invites can be done, ...
what if the person who did the gang goes offline, how is it handed over?
---------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is an alien dressed as Bunny to secretly gain world domination. ...if you don't know Happy Tree Friends, just imagine Teletubbies on LSD... |
Kai DeathCutter
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Posted - 2006.11.02 11:30:00 -
[27]
is there going to be a replacement skill for the now lost leadership skill, ie boost to targetting speed?
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Seraphim Io
Caldari Battlestars Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 13:20:00 -
[28]
I will keep this short and sweet.
The gang size change will kill PVP. DEV'S!!! TUX!!! AND EVERYONE ELSE STOP MUCKING WITH THINGS THAT AREN'T BROKEN!
Originally by: Koshmarnaya Akula
Nothing says "stealth" like oh look a stealth bomber warped in!
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Dwight Hammerhead
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.02 13:50:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Dwight Hammerhead on 02/11/2006 13:53:11 Well this whole new system sounds interesting at best. On the subject of transmitting damage to ppl in your gang - well it sounds right, and with maximum of 10ppl in a squadron at a time this could really reduce lag, and besides with the current state of logistics ships for remote reppairing noone even looks at those dmg stats for the gang. Anything that reduces lag and improves performance is nice, no argument here.
About reducing sizes of gangs. Well thats not true, with the proper skills as calcucated above u can have up to 250ppl in a fleet. Still not enough for the UBER blob? well form 2 or 3 fleets then. Too afraid of those rank 8/12 charisma skills? get several ppl to train them to reasonable levels (say fleet command lv 2-3) and form 2 seperate fleets, working together? There are crasy leadership mofos in just about every bigger alliance in the game. Those are ppl spending tons of poits on leaderhip (like me, i have a messed up char with high willpower/charisma and currently i have more in leadership than in gunnery or missile operation), so thats not really that much of a problem, and it further makes use of those ppl. As for smaller corps - well they are smaller, they wont probably need someone with Fleet command so not a big issue there. At least thats what I think about that.
Some totaly valid concerns in this thread so far though, as in what happens when the leadership junkie gets disconected, is He the gang leader or he can just do invites and stuff and appoint ppl that actually lead the gang (having skills does not make u a good FC). And yeah, what happens to the targeting speed bonus we had from the leadership skill itself?
So all in all it looks promising, but we need a dev to explain how is it going to work exactly. Sry for repeating some of the things already said or stating the obvious, just sharing my thoughts _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig |
Mothmar Friedsquid
Gallente Spacley Sprockets Shipyards
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:32:00 -
[30]
As someone who picked, "Ship Commander" as his original autobuild when creating his character, I wholeheartedly support the idea that maybe it's nice to have some use for the 13 charisma I started with.
My questions about the new fleet mechanics are a bit more technical. EX: If I have a command module on my ship, does it propagate to the entire fleet, or does it just propagate to the wing within it?
As an aside, not being able to have fifty people in a group RIGHT AWAY is probably not going to kill EVE. And the massive amount of messaging required for notifying every single participant in a combat about how well half of the participants are doing is probably hurting fleet combat quite a bit more than the inability to make groups > a size of 6 within the first two days you and your friends are playing the game is. I read combat reports where there is supposedly a minute or two of load time where everyone is lagging - that's probably the biggest thing wrong with fleet combat at the moment.
I'd love the challenge of creating a fleet under the new restrictions, from what I can see. Mothmar Friedsquid. Because SWG sucked and EVE doesn't require my entire life.
Currently running missions with Spacely Sprockets, Inc. We're recruiting mature and intelligent players. |
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Tolomea
Gallente 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.11.02 22:58:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Tolomea on 02/11/2006 23:03:18 Ok, I believe this is the complete list of questions we have so far, if you can think of any others then list them and I will edit them in.
1: Is the old gang mechanism still available and if so has it been changed at all 2: Does leadership still provide a targeting bonus and if not is there a replacement bonus somewhere 3: What level of command do gang mod and skill bonuses propagate at and across what distance 4: Have the fleet and field command ships been changed at all 5: What happens when someone in a position of command logs for whatever reason 6: How much situational information is available, eg in current gangs you can see the health of all members in the same grid 7: How many gang chat windows will people have and who will be in them 8: Are there any other chat mechanisms, eg broadcast 9: Who can I warp to 10: With regard to gang orders (warp, invite etc) who can give which orders to which functional groups over what distances 11: And are there any new orders
And kudos to Guurzak, most of this is prarphrasing his list
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Tolomea
Gallente 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.11.02 23:57:00 -
[32]
And just for amusement while we wait for an official set of answers these are the answers I'd like to see
Terminology: below: the whole tree under your command above: the chain between you and the top beside: everyone with the same boss as you your boss: the next guy up the chain your subordinates: everyone immediately below you your group: another term for everyone beside you your neighbours: your boss, group and subordinates
1: Is the old gang mechanism still available and if so has it been changed at all
Yes and Yes, traditional gangs are still present, and entirely seperate from the new structure, but "gang" bonuses no longer propagate across traditional gangs, and yes you can be in both at once
2: Does leadership still provide a targeting bonus and if not is there a replacement bonus somewhere
Yes
3: What level of command do gang mod and skill bonuses propagate at
They propagate to everyone below or beside you in the command structure. To be specific as a gang member you get the highest bonuses available out of those people who are above or beside you in the structure and in the same grid.
4: Have the fleet and field command ships been changed at all
No
5: What happens when someone in a position of command logs for whatever reason
The highest skilled person in the level directly below them is promoted, you did remember to bring a second in command didn't you? Oh and someone else will be promoted to replace etc If the replacements skills are inadequate then you can't invite new people and gang warp, broadcast etc only effects some random subset, but the structure does reamin intact
6: How much situational information is available, eg in current gangs you can see the health of all members in the same grid
In overview you can see the health of all your neighbours who are in the same grid, you can also see their location and health in the map at all times.
7: How many gang chat windows will people have and who will be in them grunts 1, leaders 2, one contains you and your subordinates, the other your group and boss. 8: Are there any other chat mechanisms, eg broadcast
Yes, ctrl return in the subordinates window sends the message to all the groups below you in the structure, it shows in all the chat windows and is highlighted. Btw when voice chat gets here, you'll hear the people in those two chats and modifier keys will choose to talk to either your group, your subordinates or broadcast to all your subordinates, when you broadcast it will silence all other chat in those groups while you speak.
9: Who can I warp to
your neighbours
10: With regard to gang orders (warp, invite etc) who can give which orders to which functional groups over what distances
The boss of a group controls membership of that group. As for warp you can warp you or any of your subordinates (and everyone below them) to your neighbours and any of the normal warp targets. But you, the people warping and the warp target must all be in the same system.
11: And are there any new orders
Warp gang is a two tier menu. First tier who to warp, me, my subordinates, me and my subordinates. Second tier where
Otherwise no
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Gigi Barbagrigia
Latent Appliance Fetishists
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:00:00 -
[33]
Quote: If the replacements skills are inadequate then they cant invite new people After the logger reconnects, to get things back the way they were you need to invite them
----- 42 |
Tolomea
Gallente 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.11.03 12:34:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Gigi Barbagrigia
Quote: If the replacements skills are inadequate then they cant invite new people After the logger reconnects, to get things back the way they were you need to invite them
point, I was imagining that these two events were happening at different levels, but there is the possibilty that they could happen at squad level, specifically a squad leader with 10 ppl under him drops, the best replacement can only support 6 so the original squad leader can't be reinivited on reconnect
that said it still seems a better solution than the one where the excess members are dropped from the structure
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Pah Triac
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2006.11.03 13:14:00 -
[35]
This is not a wine or flame but a personal though on the whole issue.
The strongest facts that EVE has over WoW and some other MMORPG games, is that it has no group limits, it gives you loot in PvP and there is the excitement that u might lose your gear in the process and it does not matter iff you are a 5 month player in a T1 frigatewith 1 scrambling point or a 3 year old players with a Carrier.
I really hope that they will not bust one of the 3 stongest magnets in their gameplay. and as i see EVE is there for us and showing their thoughts and feelings on matters with us, And not like in WoW that the players are there for Blizzard (know the term "but its blizzard"??) im personaly convinced that they will not "screw" us with such limitations. Limit gang players => specialized gangs => declining the noobs that like to play the game course they do not fit in the gang setup.. -> Gang members limit reached. this sounds overexactuarated, But it is the hard reality in WOW all ready. They have a limit of 40 ppl well in a guild with 200 its a constand fight and struggle. Ask how much guild there are older then 1 year and the avarage lifespan of a guild. and pure course ppl getting dumped on invite requests course they do not fit in :S
iff they plan to limit the gang size instead of giving it options then they will kill the one and foremost reason i quitted WoW and came back to eve.
Also on the lagg issues i heared of. (smaller gangs?) Does it matter iff there are 20 gangs of 10 plyers or one gang of 200 trying to jump true the gate if a Big cheese on TS say 'Yump' ?? The new gang skill are there to help us utilize the current limitles gang system not to limit us with skills that will let leaders say "sorry mate we are full". Right CCP ???
Your local friendly Ammatar
*** People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true. *** |
Hellraiza666
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:04:00 -
[36]
DONT MAKE GANGS REQUIRE SKILLS PLZ
Make it so skills give you boosts ye, but dont make them a requirement ><
Grrrr stupid CCP. Basically you stopping a group of newer plays grouping together until they spend ages frigging training for gang skills, as if they aint got enough to train for already . Use another way to reduce lag instead of stopping people making gangs unless they train for month Rank 13 skill to V will be 4tl lol.
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Rafein
Eye of God Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:16:00 -
[37]
actually, I kinda hope they allow anoyone to form gangs at any time, with any size. But you would have to form squadrons, wings, and fleets for bonuses to be applied.
So you would have to join a squadron to see leaderships's +2% lock on speed per level, if it keeps it, as well as all other leadership boosts.
This allows newbies to still form a posse to kill someone, or run a mission, no training needed. But those who train for squads, wings, and groups accordingly, will gain some nice bonuses from warefare skills and mindlinks, and would be a sutable payoff for the training involved.
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paulcdb
Gallente Future Research Opportunities Group Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:30:00 -
[38]
well by the looks of it you'll have the normal gang as we know it today, with the option of converting it to the Fleet, etc type gang.
Doesn't seem to be restricted to skills though as i managed to convert (right click gang in overview, convert to fleet) and move a char between the differant tiers... although it might currently be bugged but still it's much better than the current system :)
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Taaketa Frist
The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.04 00:45:00 -
[39]
Are gang modules functioning at all? I am testing the Mining Forman link and it seems not to be working. --------------
Dang nabit |
Matrix Aran
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.04 03:10:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Matrix Aran on 04/11/2006 03:13:09 Aside from the bugs, the new gang system is really sexeh. Nearly 70% of all normal gang commands can be broadcast to everyone's overviews. You can order people to align to an object, you can call a primary target, and the overview will allow everyone to lock it. You can request for support at you position, report an enemy spotted, request shield cap or armor, broadcast to warp to an object, jump through a gate, and even broadcast an autopilot destination. As an FC this is a godsend to clean up TS chatter, and I'm more than willing to train up the skills for it.
P.S. And thats just my little 10 man gang :) ----
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Mia Yasumura
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Posted - 2006.11.04 04:29:00 -
[41]
Seems I'm in the minority here, as I really like the concept they're presenting here. But there is one li'l thing I'm lost on.
How do existing skills equate to the new ones ? Old leadership now forms squads (up to 10) instead of gang buff ? Old wing command (rank 8) combines squads. Where did old Squadron Command disappear to?
Or is (leadership / squad command / wing command) soon to be = leadership / wing command / fleet command) ?
Hate to continue training a skill thats being phased out :(
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Taaketa Frist
The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.04 10:49:00 -
[42]
Squardon command has turned into Siege warfare specialist skill but remains with the same 10% bonus to command links. (Including the foreman link).
The three skills you need are Leadership, Wing command and Fleet command. (10*5 = 50 gang members at Wing command 5. 50*5=250 gang members with Fleet command) or my figure are off slightly Fleet command might not be 5 wings... I can't remember right now. --------------
Dang nabit |
Spike Spiegle
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Posted - 2006.11.04 11:27:00 -
[43]
To make people use this structure and cut down gang sizes the origional gang format should still be allowed so that the new guys can still form gangs without training. Just make it so that the origional gang format has a limit of around 10-15 with no gang bonus and this should stop the blobs.
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Taaketa Frist
The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.04 12:08:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Spike Spiegle Edited by: Spike Spiegle on 04/11/2006 11:58:43 To make people use this structure and cut down gang sizes the origional gang format should still be allowed so that the new guys can still form gangs without training. Just make it so that the origional gang format has a limit of around 5-10 with no gang bonus and this should stop the blobs.
Well that appears to be the way it is now. I had a gang of 13 last night. No gang bonuses are working. I couldn't figure out how you form a fleet, probably because I don't have the wing command skill yet, they arn't seeded on SISI. --------------
Dang nabit |
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Oveur
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Posted - 2006.11.04 13:56:00 -
[45]
Trolling the forums on Saturdays are good and beneficial for all mankind!
Here are some quick answers, I don't have the design in front of me but these are the ballpark answers.
1: Is the old gang mechanism still available and if so has it been changed at all
Old gang is still available but has the following limitations (which might change): Max 50 members, no damage state updates, no members visible in seamless map and no gang bonuess work. Some of the new stuff works, like the roles and the gang broadcast messages.
In a fleet, you wil get damage states of your squad and will all be visible on maps. They will also recieve gang bonuses from all their leaders. Other squad leaders, wing commanders and the fleet commander are also represented on the map now.
2: Does leadership still provide a targeting bonus and if not is there a replacement bonus somewhere
It does not. I believe there is a seperate gang skill for it now.
3: What level of command do gang mod and skill bonuses propagate at and across what distance
In a fleet, it's the commanders in the hierarchy that give bonuses, Fleet commander give all fleet, squad leader only his squad etc. This is both an huge optimization and a preparation for more advanced gang functionality down the road, where you can have specialized squads (Formation-ish gameplay)
4: Have the fleet and field command ships been changed at all
No, not at this point. They might of course depending on playtesting.
5: What happens when someone in a position of command logs for whatever reason
The new gang service handles these situations much better such as disconnects. However, if he logs in a fleet, he can set another squad member as leader or one can be promoted.
6: How much situational information is available, eg in current gangs you can see the health of all members in the same grid
See above. You also get the new gang broadcast and new gang commands.
7: How many gang chat windows will people have and who will be in them
Not determined yet. This will also change in the future when we will allow fleet leaders to liste to two channels simultaneously (like be on commander channel and fleet channel). Chat channels might change according to that setup.
8: Are there any other chat mechanisms, eg broadcast
Yes, we're adding them progressively, but you have enemy spotted, need rep etc.
9: Who can I warp to
All gang/fleet members iirc.
10: With regard to gang orders (warp, invite etc) who can give which orders to which functional groups over what distances
Gang is the same before, in a fleet, fleet officers can command their own hierarchy to some extent. For example, I can invite to my squad iirc.
11: And are there any new orders
Yes! Sit, roll, jump.
12: How do you assemble this multitiered structure
Create a gang, convert it to a fleet, the hierachy then expands as you assign leaders.
13: Can you skips levels, so can you have a squadron included in a fleet along side some wings, without needing a token wing in between.
No, afaik you need to stick to the hierachy.
14: How does overview tagging work
Tagging and broadcast commands are now overlapping somewhat and we're still determining to what extent we will have both functionalities.
Senior Producer EVE Online
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Dwight Hammerhead
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.04 15:46:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Oveur
3: What level of command do gang mod and skill bonuses propagate at and across what distance
In a fleet, it's the commanders in the hierarchy that give bonuses, Fleet commander give all fleet, squad leader only his squad etc. This is both an huge optimization and a preparation for more advanced gang functionality down the road, where you can have specialized squads (Formation-ish gameplay)
First 10x for the response. But what happens if u have say 4 ppl with dedicated command ships, using mixed gang mods, and u want your fleet to get all of them (like it is now). Now they can either be all commanders (unlikely) or its just an unnecesarry gang mod nerf? Or is it made so that if u have those ppl in the same squad/whathever with the Fleet commander (the one with fleet command, formig the blob) their bonuses are distributed to all down the chain? Or is it I misunderstood smth? _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig |
Saerid
Amarr FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.04 15:53:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Saerid on 04/11/2006 15:57:55 Has the fleet system been performance tested in anything resembling a real situation yet? Mainly interested because the gangs and especially the hp/damage updates seem to be a genuine Class A performance disaster, or at least that was what the stress testing seemed to indicate.
1: Is the old gang mechanism still available and if so has it been changed at all
Old gang is still available but has the following limitations (which might change): Max 50 members, no damage state updates, no members visible in seamless map and no gang bonuess work. Some of the new stuff works, like the roles and the gang broadcast messages.
Any chance the limit here could be increased? Stripping away the damage updates is more of a good than bad thing in major fleet battles (see above). Easier on the nodes by all accounts. The point I'm making is the major issue for anything requiring fleet size formations is not lack of features, it's all about performance. Hard to avoid a sneaking suspicion all the performance improvements in kali will result in a net loss due to new features being added. That's been the tradition pretty much.
Beyond that, reminds me of WoW raid system quite a bit.
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Oveur
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Posted - 2006.11.04 16:03:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
Originally by: Oveur
3: What level of command do gang mod and skill bonuses propagate at and across what distance
In a fleet, it's the commanders in the hierarchy that give bonuses, Fleet commander give all fleet, squad leader only his squad etc. This is both an huge optimization and a preparation for more advanced gang functionality down the road, where you can have specialized squads (Formation-ish gameplay)
First 10x for the response. But what happens if u have say 4 ppl with dedicated command ships, using mixed gang mods, and u want your fleet to get all of them (like it is now). Now they can either be all commanders (unlikely) or its just an unnecesarry gang mod nerf? Or is it made so that if u have those ppl in the same squad/whathever with the Fleet commander (the one with fleet command, formig the blob) their bonuses are distributed to all down the chain? Or is it I misunderstood smth?
A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. It's also not the way we want to evolve gangs, the squads will get more specific bonuses if they have the correct group of roles, which directly penalize other types of roles in the squad (formation kind of thing).
If you have good commanders, you should benefit from it, if you have a load of mediocre commanders, you shouldn't benefit as much from it, if you don't have any commanders, you shouldn't benefit at all. That's just the same as traditional warfare. (Note, the level of commanders here is of course referring to their skill level, not their actual competency).
There are stress tests scheduled for the new gangs to compare with the stress tests of the old gangs on Singularity.
Senior Producer EVE Online
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Oveur
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Posted - 2006.11.04 16:08:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Saerid Edited by: Saerid on 04/11/2006 15:57:55 Has the fleet system been performance tested in anything resembling a real situation yet? Mainly interested because the gangs and especially the hp/damage updates seem to be a genuine Class A performance disaster, or at least that was what the stress testing seemed to indicate.
1: Is the old gang mechanism still available and if so has it been changed at all
Old gang is still available but has the following limitations (which might change): Max 50 members, no damage state updates, no members visible in seamless map and no gang bonuess work. Some of the new stuff works, like the roles and the gang broadcast messages.
Any chance the limit here could be increased? Stripping away the damage updates is more of a good than bad thing in major fleet battles (see above). Easier on the nodes by all accounts. The point I'm making is the major issue for anything requiring fleet size formations is not lack of features, it's all about performance. Hard to avoid a sneaking suspicion all the performance improvements in kali will result in a net loss due to new features being added. That's been the tradition pretty much.
Beyond that, reminds me of WoW raid system quite a bit.
No, the limit will not be increased. If you have a group of 50 people and none of them are able to create the basic squads (and if they have leadership to any extent today, they can), I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, noob rush?
Senior Producer EVE Online
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Saerid
Amarr FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.04 16:26:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Saerid on 04/11/2006 16:29:43
Originally by: Oveur
No, the limit will not be increased. If you have a group of 50 people and none of them are able to create the basic squads (and if they have leadership to any extent today, they can), I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, noob rush?
Performance. Gangs deliver the minimum feature set required , ie. you can gang warp and got that one channel. For the most part the coordination side of things happens on voice comms anyway. All the fancy gang skills won't do you any good if you're waiting for the system to load for 5 minutes while it shuffles bonuses around or you're relogging after the n+1:th node drop of the day.
This would be considering we've had node drops with 40 vs 40 and anything truly decisive nowadays is at least 100 vs 100. That said, reducing the load from BM handoffs and the constant stream of buddy list spammage while logging in after a node drop does look good. Wait and see I figure.
To reiterate, the three things needed for fleet battles nowadays would be 1) Server performance 2) Server performance 3) Server performance. All the other stuff is just arranging the deck chairs on the titanic if you can't deliver the one thing that enables the rest, and that's enough server stability and performance to make trying it out worthwile. Keeping in mind all the gang/formation skills and such seem to be aimed at larger scale pvp activity. If you want to mine you can use a gang. Or maybe split the barges into their own squad for that sweet sweet mining foreman skill. It doesn't take a multitiered structure though.
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Mia Yasumura
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Posted - 2006.11.04 16:52:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Taaketa Frist Squardon command has turned into Siege warfare specialist skill but remains with the same 10% bonus to command links. (Including the foreman link).
Okie thats good to know....what about the old "Siege Warfare Specialist" skill ?
Hehee this is going to totally wonk my training schedule.
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Oveur
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Posted - 2006.11.04 17:22:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Saerid Edited by: Saerid on 04/11/2006 16:40:45 Edited by: Saerid on 04/11/2006 16:29:43
Originally by: Oveur
No, the limit will not be increased. If you have a group of 50 people and none of them are able to create the basic squads (and if they have leadership to any extent today, they can), I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, noob rush?
Performance. Gangs deliver the minimum feature set required , ie. you can gang warp and got that one channel. For the most part the coordination side of things happens on voice comms anyway. All the fancy gang skills won't do you any good if you're waiting for the system to load for 5 minutes while it shuffles bonuses around or you're relogging after the n+1:th node drop of the day. Not to mention it seems you're planning to remove exactly the parts that caused the performance hit from the gangs. Namely the damage updates and gang skills. Not a bad deal, eh?
This would be considering we've had node drops with 40 vs 40 and anything truly decisive nowadays is at least 100 vs 100. That said, reducing the load from BM handoffs and the constant stream of buddy list spammage while logging in after a node drop does look good. Wait and see I figure.
To reiterate, the three things needed for fleet battles nowadays would be 1) Server performance 2) Server performance 3) Server performance. All the other stuff is just arranging the deck chairs on the titanic if you can't deliver the one thing that enables the rest, and that's enough server stability and performance to make trying it out worthwile. Keeping in mind all the gang/formation skills and such seem to be aimed at larger scale pvp activity. If you want to mine you can use a gang. Or maybe split the barges into their own squad for that sweet sweet mining foreman skill. It doesn't take a multitiered structure though.
What the new gang limitations and the split into squadrons are addressing is the performance hit on your gang, where your gang is what's crashing the node. It's not only the damage indicators, it's also the multitude of possible gang bonuses that can now possibly come from any gang member on any stat, which may or may not be active and when active/inactive, has to be propagated to all the members of your gang, which are then calculated into anything affecting those gang members, like, getting shot at.
Senior Producer EVE Online
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Sensi Milla
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2006.11.04 17:46:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Sensi Milla on 04/11/2006 17:46:01
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Saerid Edited by: Saerid on 04/11/2006 15:57:55 Has the fleet system been performance tested in anything resembling a real situation yet? Mainly interested because the gangs and especially the hp/damage updates seem to be a genuine Class A performance disaster, or at least that was what the stress testing seemed to indicate.
1: Is the old gang mechanism still available and if so has it been changed at all
Old gang is still available but has the following limitations (which might change): Max 50 members, no damage state updates, no members visible in seamless map and no gang bonuess work. Some of the new stuff works, like the roles and the gang broadcast messages.
Any chance the limit here could be increased? Stripping away the damage updates is more of a good than bad thing in major fleet battles (see above). Easier on the nodes by all accounts. The point I'm making is the major issue for anything requiring fleet size formations is not lack of features, it's all about performance. Hard to avoid a sneaking suspicion all the performance improvements in kali will result in a net loss due to new features being added. That's been the tradition pretty much.
Beyond that, reminds me of WoW raid system quite a bit.
No, the limit will not be increased. If you have a group of 50 people and none of them are able to create the basic squads (and if they have leadership to any extent today, they can), I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, noob rush?
This will create a BIG problem, esp. as Kali is released. First, you need 2 leadership skills to level 5 just to be able to match a 50 man gang.
Secondly, the second and third tier skills won't even be released until Kali hits, so even with preparation, nobody will be able to create a gang over 50 for at least a month.
A change like this will neuter medium and large scale combat for at least a month for people to train the new squad command to 5.
My corporation alone runs 50 man gangs daily, and will be neutered by such a change - and it won't be because of a lack of training or prep.
Either the base gang limit needs to be increased, or the skills need to be released on TQ well before Kali hits.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.04 18:49:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Oveur No, the limit will not be increased. If you have a group of 50 people and none of them are able to create the basic squads (and if they have leadership to any extent today, they can), I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, noob rush?
Are you expecting all of EVE to stop fighting while the Intaki in their alliance get their leadership skills up? Thats going to take months to get above 50 in their gang! ITS A RANK 8 SKILL TO FIVE JUST TO HAVE FIFTY IN A FLEET! Using my lovely attributes as a base, I believe that is 36 days for level 4 to 5 alone, and about 7 days to get to level 4. Then you need to get that rank 12 up a few notches to get a larger gang. And the alliance needs several people with these skills on call 23/7...
This is going to be painful for the first few months to say the least! --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Kree Jaffa
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Posted - 2006.11.04 19:56:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Oveur
No, the limit will not be increased. If you have a group of 50 people and none of them are able to create the basic squads (and if they have leadership to any extent today, they can), I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, noob rush?
Well then something needs to happen within the next week. We need all the new skills seeded on TQ ASAP so when Kali rolls around alliances can continue to work effectively. Nobody bothers training charisma skills for the most part except on alts. I have a feeling that the majority of Achura are screaming at this change since it will take them forever to train. My alliance regularly does 100-150 man gangs. A very large chunk of these people trained no leadership skills and have very low charisma attributes.
Another idea that would make this a bit easier to deal with would be breaking out the gang hierarchy from the hierarchy gang bonuses. One set of very low rank skills (no more than 1 week training for a 100 person gang at charisma 5) determines the numbers of gang members. Then another set of skill can give us the gang bonuses at the various command ranks in the hierarchy.
This way people won't be left out in the cold. Charisma skills have been worthless for a long time. It is pretty unreasonable to expect people to drop everything. I understand fully why you want to make these changes to the gang system. If this game was still in beta I would say go right ahead. But this game has players and alliances that have been around for years now. The new system really needs modifications that allow it to be transitioned in far less painfully.
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Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 19:56:00 -
[56]
Time sinks for required functionality are stupid.
This is no different.
Originally by: Khavi Vetali
Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
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G Dabak
Magellanic Itg GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 19:57:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Oveur No, the limit will not be increased. If you have a group of 50 people and none of them are able to create the basic squads (and if they have leadership to any extent today, they can), I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, noob rush?
Are you expecting all of EVE to stop fighting while the Intaki in their alliance get their leadership skills up? Thats going to take months to get above 50 in their gang! ITS A RANK 8 SKILL TO FIVE JUST TO HAVE FIFTY IN A FLEET! Using my lovely attributes as a base, I believe that is 36 days for level 4 to 5 alone, and about 7 days to get to level 4. Then you need to get that rank 12 up a few notches to get a larger gang. And the alliance needs several people with these skills on call 23/7...
This is going to be painful for the first few months to say the least!
I agree, the skills should really only require IV to progress to the next tier, and the ranks should be lowered. Cha is a low stat for a lot of people and this is a fairly critical thing to train in kali.
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Yeep
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:01:00 -
[58]
The trouble with this is time in game (and therefore sp) doesn't really translate to ability to lead gangs. Its hard enough to persuade people to step up and command as it is now. Imagine trying to tell promising gang leaders that they have to stop training for ships if they want to lead bigger gangs. I realise you can have a more veteran player take in game leadership but won't the actual gang leader forfit most of the advanced gang features by doing so?
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:16:00 -
[59]
The new system sounds pretty nifty, good stuff.
And the faint sound you hear in the distance is me laughing at all the "optimized" ultra-low-charisma characters out there. Serves them right.
...and to the whiners above: so you form a couple of old-style gangs and coordinate via TS while you skill up for the new fleet system. Everyone else will be in the same boat, too. If that small inconvenience makes it impossible for you to fight, then the problem is your own organization, not the game system.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:18:00 -
[60]
Originally by: G Dabak Cha is a low stat for a lot of people
That's the price you pay for trying to minmax your character. I don't think anyone was exactly forcing those people to minimize their charisma.
If your charisma is 3 and you want to be an FC: sucks to be you.
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Drew Macklin
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:28:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Drew Macklin on 04/11/2006 20:28:17
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: G Dabak Cha is a low stat for a lot of people
That's the price you pay for trying to minmax your character. I don't think anyone was exactly forcing those people to minimize their charisma.
If your charisma is 3 and you want to be an FC: sucks to be you.
Except that being a FC and in-game stats has absolutely NOTHING to do with eachother until now. One of the best fleet commanders I've ever known would be arbitrarily punished for his choice of an Amarr because he wanted to go PEW PEW at things when he first herd about the game. Making an in-game skill take presidence over someone's personal ability to be a fleet commander is a very dumb idea.
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Jacinto Naysmith
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:36:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Jacinto Naysmith on 04/11/2006 20:39:40 This change is fundamentally flawed and I think it will not be a good change for EVE. Fleet Commanding is not, nor has it ever been, nor should it ever be about in game skill sets. Its about how well you can lead actual living people. Just because you spent a couple months making a little bar on the screen go higher doesn't mean you have the ability to lead other people, and trying to make EVE like that will simply make this game one step closer to being another generic MMO where stats on the screen are everything and actual thought and talent is worth nothing.
Talk to actual fleet commanders and see if they're excited about this change, my guess is the overwhelming majority are not. Give them the tools to execute new strategies, don't give them a meaningless time sink just to regain a basic game function.
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Delors
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:43:00 -
[63]
Also, be prepared for this change to bring account sharing and metagaming to new heights as every 0.0 alliance creates dedicated fleet command alts that have nothing besides fleet command and cloaking skills trained and are shared between fleet commanders.
This is nothing more than a ham-handed attempt to reduce lag that will do nothing but inconvenience players and bring absolutely no improvement to gameplay.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:52:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi That's the price you pay for trying to minmax your character. I don't think anyone was exactly forcing those people to minimize their charisma.
If your charisma is 3 and you want to be an FC: sucks to be you.
The gang's executive officer needs these skills, not the commander. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Bein Glorious
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:52:00 -
[65]
Requiring players to train for a few weeks (or even months) just to lead a decent sized gang is philosophically unsound, as far as game design is concerned. The benefits of leadership skill training would no longer be an incentive, but a chore. One of the biggest selling points of EVE Online has always been that, unlike other MMOs, you don't have to kill imps for fifty hours or whatever just to be useful, but these leadership requirements in this change are counterproductive for attracting new players, and possibly also keeping the old ones.
Now, I'm not against all of the changes, and in fact, I think a lot of them are genuinely enticing and stay true to the game's essence: you can spend a short amount of time to become proficient, or you can invest months to specialize and become an expert. I would wager a fleet with identical numbers, ship composition, intelligence, and skill, would with the new system of squadrons, wings, fleet commanders and special features from Kali would beat a simple gang from the present Red Moon Rising gang system. The cap on gang size, however, is a fundamental flaw and will need distinct adjustment.
Everyone agrees that the biggest problem with fleet combat in EVE right now is that when you get in a 100 versus 100 pilot fleet fight, you're so lagged you can't even shoot or change your ammo, or worse yet, the node crashes, and that's bad for everyone. By all means, limiting leadership bonuses by dividing fleets into squadrons is a good idea, and the new enhancements may even make fleets more effective than they are now, and thatÆs not just with concern to server stability. Despite that, even with ideal lag-free combat, people will be frustrated by the drudgery of these new requirements. (even if every change frustrates someone, no matter what it is)
There is one critical mistake in the new leadership system: emphasis on skillpoints over skill. What I propose is that all the fleet related skills and mechanic changes slated for Kali stay the same, but simple gangs like in Red Moon Rising can be of any size. But despite that, gangs would not receive leadership skill "buffs", show the health statuses of gang members, maybe even not give the option of using some of the bells and whistles coming out with the new gangs in kali like "need rep" or "enemy spotted" and so on. A gang would just be just an absolutely spartan, CPU unintensive, loose collection of pilots where the only benefits are a chat channel for coordination and the ability to warp to one another. This would bring into the fold the need of a gang leader with actual talent, and fits better with the game's credo. Then, if that player wanted to get more out of gang leadership, he or she could devote his training to leadership skills to reap their benefits. If a pilot has less skillpoints than his enemy, then yes, by all means raw talent should more than make up for the skillpoint disparity, and this change loses sight of this core principle.
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Avulsion
Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:53:00 -
[66]
I for one, am happy with this change. For the longest time, I have wanted to be a fleet commander and lead my space troops to victory in epic space battles. Unfortunatly, I am a bit of an idiot, and my every attempt to lead a gang into combat has resulted in horrible soul crushing failure and death. But this is my chance to shine! My seemingly stupid refusal to start with an achura character has given me a slightly higher charisma than my minmaxing alliance mates, making me an ideal candidate for leadership.
Thanks to these changes, my ingame attributes are now more important than my real life incompetance and glaring personality flaws.
SP > Skill
______________ | Too **** Big |
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:55:00 -
[67]
Well well, aren't the Goons in a complaining mood tonight.
It's true that up to now FCs haven't needed ingame skills. They now will. Yes, it will suck for FCs with low charisma, but hey, they've saved a lot of time up to now because of that low charisma -- now it's payback time (and I can comfortably predict the price of +4/+5 charisma implants skyrocketing ).
But "no improvements to gameplay"? Bull****. Read the Oveur's comments. This will bring a lot of goodies to FCs who train up for the new system. Don't want to? Use multiple 50-person gangs.
And yes, it is also very much about reducing lag. Also, it makes the stupid old "park a command ship in a safespot and have it boost 200 people" thing a lot more difficult. Which is good.
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Trac3rt
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 20:58:00 -
[68]
Quote: Wing Command V - Total Training Time: 75 Days ~3 Hours (including advanced CHA skills) This is how long it will take for me to lead a gang larger than 50 people. I could get BS5 or be most of the way to T2 sniping in that time!
I simply cannot justify spending that much time (~$40 in subs) to train up these skills just so I can be a FC.
That quote is by myself on the private Goonfleet forums. We have our own active discussion thread on this, which is why this may look like a bit of a thread invasion.
Being an FC, having the ability to organise people, and being able to lead has nothing at all to do with in game SP.
It is really going to suck having to try and organise people by the amount of leadership skills they have in the precious few minutes between spotting a hostile fleet and it arriving on your doorstep.
You have your reasons for this game mechanic change, but why do you have to introduce skills into the mix. Make it so ANYONE can be a fleet/wing/squad commander regardless of their skills.
___
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Blitter
Caldari GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 21:06:00 -
[69]
If gang health updates are resource-intensive, get rid of them. No one uses them anyways, they've been buggy and useless for years, and that's a small sacrifice to make for improved performance.
As for the gang bonus performance issues, that's just sloppy programming and it should be a programming fix, not a design fix. The only time you have to check for the best gang bonuses is when someone enters or leaves the gang, and you only have to do a comparison against the current best bonus.
I'm speaking as a command ship pilot with advanced cha, leadership 5, and squadron command 4 already. This design is stupid. While every MMO tries to find ways to encourage social interaction, you're putting a needless artificial cap on it. You're also making it harcder for new players to learn to FC, as it looks like they'll need literally months of training just to have access to the basic gang lead functions.
Designing your game around performance issues is a huge trap. Don't fall for it. If current gangs have performance issues, fix them. It would be a better use of programming time than the mess you seem set on creating.
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Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.04 21:12:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Fubear on 04/11/2006 21:13:53
Originally by: Oveur Trolling the forums on Saturdays are good and beneficial for all mankind! 1: Is the old gang mechanism still available and if so has it been changed at all
Old gang is still available but has the following limitations (which might change): Max 50 members, no damage state updates, no members visible in seamless map and no gang bonuess work. Some of the new stuff works, like the roles and the gang broadcast messages.
<snip>
6: How much situational information is available, eg in current gangs you can see the health of all members in the same grid
See above. You also get the new gang broadcast and new gang commands.
<snip>
13: Can you skips levels, so can you have a squadron included in a fleet along side some wings, without needing a token wing in between.
No, afaik you need to stick to the hierachy.
1: What are these new gang-roles you speak of? How do broadcast messages work?
6: New Gang commands?
13: What do you do when you have more squads than wing commanders to lead them? Do these people have to stay at home?
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.04 21:16:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Fubear
13: What do you do when you have more squads than wing commanders to lead them? Do these people have to stay at home?
You create a second gang - duh... This will all be coordinated on TS anyways. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Dracones
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 21:48:00 -
[72]
Suggestions:
1> Reduce the rank on these skills and make the pre-reqs level 4 on the prior skill, so forming the gangs under this new structure isn't the bottle-neck. Reasoning: This will promote this squad system instead of the loose gangs and get players used to using the new system.
2> Create a host of new skills that allow you to use the enhancements of the new squad system. Gang bonus skills, skills that expand how far a command module works, skills that allow you to broadcast overview alerts(target calling, aligning, warp-to).
3> Create a bunch of new gang and command modules with nice bonuses and possibly even penalties. Some of these modules would require command ships, others might be usable on a normal ship.
Keep the SP sinks out of #1 and put them into #2 and #3. This will make the system seem less like a nerf/obstacle for gang forming and more like boon for players that want to invest into leadership skills to enhance the gang gameplay experince.
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Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.04 22:17:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Fubear
13: What do you do when you have more squads than wing commanders to lead them? Do these people have to stay at home?
You create a second gang - duh... This will all be coordinated on TS anyways.
So you have your fleet of 40 people, and then a seperate gang of stragglers who completely lose out on any of the gang advantages like broadcast messages, gang chat, being 'warpToAble' or appearing on the seamless map for the FC. All because the commanders dont have 3Mil SP in Leadership?
the newgang structure is interesting, and I would like to try it out, but limiting it by skills does not bring anything positive to the game at all and only acts as a barrier to grouping people up.
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.04 22:59:00 -
[74]
I think people are mising the upside of these changes. Intgerated voice coms and gang tasking using squadrons.
Is it a time-sink. Yes. Is it nasty to those who downplayed Charisma during character set up. Yes. Do game skills negate real-life skills? NO.
BUT the upside of an integrated voice/gang coms system leaves me excited. Fleets are no longer blobs. You can have multiple warp ins, multiple types of attacks (nos, fleet gankers, logistics ships, fleet support ships) and gang mods and skills get a wonderful polishing.
Fleet actions get a bonus, great coms. In real life, its not the best fleet commander who wins. It is he who sees the other side first, is organised and gets his ships in position that has the advantage. The ability to co-ordinate and communicate the direction if firepower separates the amateurs from the professionals.
MC, BOB and the other elite corps are salivating at these changes. So should you.
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Calenth
Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 23:11:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Oveur
No, the limit will not be increased. If you have a group of 50 people and none of them are able to create the basic squads (and if they have leadership to any extent today, they can), I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, noob rush?
Wait, a noob rush is bad why exactly? Do you want new people playing this game or not?
I'm just not seeing what the players gain from this change. It seems like an increase in awkwardness ("sorry, can't defend our POS right now, the guy with the FC skills is offline" "ok, we've got three gangs of fifty, each of you gang leaders warp your groups on my mark" etc.), a severe nerfing of the leadership skills as their training requirements are being effectively increased (suddenly you have to train all the gang leader skills to do what you can do right now just by having gang bonus skills trained), and the reward is a possible reduction in lag?
I just don't see any good reason for hard-capping gangs at fifty. All that does is create an artificial game restriction which players will work-around anyway out of game, but which will cause annoyance and frustration in-game, without any corresponding benefit at all.
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Calenth
Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.04 23:14:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Gragnor I think people are mising the upside of these changes. Intgerated voice coms and gang tasking using squadrons. .
Any organization worth its salt already has non-integrated voice coms that aren't limited by artificial game gang size constraints, on separate servers that are more reliable than the game servers anyway.
The squadron and fleet bonuses I'll grant, if they weren't accompanied by the hard cap at fifty. It's great that they're giving small groups bonuses (carrots are good) but the artificial constraints on gang size generally are bad -- all they'll really do is force people to use external programs like teamspeak to coordinate large gangs.
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KillmAll187
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Posted - 2006.11.04 23:51:00 -
[77]
I find it ironic that goons have pictures of crybabys in their sigs but are crying because their blob tactic is catching a nerf. I also find it hilarious that the tables are turned on the 3 charisma base toons. Devs are killing 2 birds with one stone here. Gang lag and giant unskilled blobs. In the dictionary the word for that is: WIN-WIN
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Calenth
Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.05 00:18:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Calenth on 05/11/2006 00:22:24 Edited by: Calenth on 05/11/2006 00:20:57
Originally by: KillmAll187 I find it ironic that goons have pictures of crybabys in their sigs but are crying because their blob tactic is catching a nerf. I also find it hilarious that the tables are turned on the 3 charisma base toons. Devs are killing 2 birds with one stone here. Gang lag and giant unskilled blobs. In the dictionary the word for that is: WIN-WIN
I find it comical that people who've never even been close to a POS siege or been in a gang that comes close to the proposed cap, think they're qualified to comment on changes to gang size.
If gangs of fifty to two hundred players are "blobs" then every major alliance in this game -- D2, BoB, Southern Coalition (naming just the ones I've fought) "blobs" by that standard for every major POS fight. And they'll continue to do so after this change, they'll just work around it using kludgy, awkward out of game mechanisms.
That's the thing. This isn't even a "nerf," it's just a nuisance. People will still have huge gangs, they'll just have to go around their own elbows to do it. We aren't complaining because we're somehow getting "nerfed" -- the work-arounds for this are obvious. We're complaining because it's going to be a d***** nuisance. And, unlike you (unless I'm missing something after a quick search of your posting history; if I am, apologies in advance), we're actually qualified to comment, because we deal with the game at the level where these changes will matter.
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KillmAll187
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Posted - 2006.11.05 00:23:00 -
[79]
Edited by: KillmAll187 on 05/11/2006 00:23:54 How do YOU know what I have and have not done? You know what they say about assuming.
Cry on
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Calenth
Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.05 00:25:00 -
[80]
Originally by: KillmAll187 How do YOU know what I have and have not done? You know what they say about assuming.
Cry on
I'm not the one posting without a corp history, mate. If you actually are qualified to comment, then I apologize, but I searched your post history and didn't see any corp membership other than Aliastra.
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Matrix Aran
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.05 00:53:00 -
[81]
Personaly I have to agree with devs on this one. The new gang system will reduce the load on the servers and clear up half the nightmare of trying to lead a gang on TS. With some luck it'll be enough of a nuisance to promote smaller roving gangs to big giant blobs, blobs which made me want to puke every time I was in an alliance who asked me to fight in one. ----
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Michael Nester
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.05 01:00:00 -
[82]
I myself like the proposed changes, however I do think that some of the skill reqs are a bit imposing.
I would probly hardcap it at 100 and change the modifiers for the skills from 8x and 12x to something like 5x and 8x because having such high ranked skills just to lead a gang larger than 50 is a bit overkill, but this is why its in testing on sisi, so they can figure out what is good and what isnt ------------------------------------- The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory |
Calenth
Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.05 01:28:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Calenth on 05/11/2006 01:36:39
Originally by: Matrix Aran Personaly I have to agree with devs on this one. The new gang system will reduce the load on the servers and clear up half the nightmare of trying to lead a gang on TS. With some luck it'll be enough of a nuisance to promote smaller roving gangs to big giant blobs, blobs which made me want to puke every time I was in an alliance who asked me to fight in one.
DO you really think it will, though? I think it's far more likely that it'll just increase the nightmare -- people will still use big groups of pilots, because all else being equal, a group of 100 players will beat one of fifty. They'll just have to use out of game mechanisms like teamspeak to coordinate those big groups. (edit: or spend however many months training the appropriate skills, of course. But I think out of game workarounds will be more common).
You might be right about roving gang pvp, but that sort of roving gank action doesn't often go that large anyway. The fights where you really see hundreds of people on a side are the POS battles, and you'll still need everyone to show up for those.
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Taaketa Frist
The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.05 01:59:00 -
[84]
Well I will be definately training the skills cos if thats they its gonna be thats the way its gonna be.
Shame on Goonswarm if you don't have at least someone on able to lead a gang you've got a large enough group to do so. I already know in my corp there are several people (all in different timezones planning to immeditately focus on getting these new skills trained)
And yes the blob does need sorted These gangs please note can in theory have a max amount of 250 members in a full fleet with maxed skills.
My surprise is Goonfleet complaining they won't have enough players "qualified" to run a fleet. Considering your group is 10 times greater than my own corp yet it appears we will have enough people to function under the new gang system. --------------
Dang nabit |
Jan Javaar
Minmatar FireStar Inc Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.05 02:20:00 -
[85]
One question i have not seen, it was hinted at in another question is:
Does this mean, the FC has to be the ganglead?????
This is horrible, what you see now is that you have one guy who is FC, AND another guy who does the invites, XO so to speak.
Will it be possible to "share" the FC options out? Otherwise it will be horrible during battle:
1) FC has to call targets, using shiny new options 2) warp fleet/ wing/ squadron 3) AND at the same time get people into the fleet 4) set up infrastructure (wing/ squadron leads) because someone crashes/ has to logoff 4a) and maintain that
First 2 are the real FC tasks, the other are for his staff, the XO so to speak.
Has this been taken into account?
Originally by: The Wizz117
Corporations ... the last 20 i joined have all disbanded after a few weeks
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Calenth
Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.05 02:43:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Calenth on 05/11/2006 02:46:02
Originally by: Taaketa Frist Well I will be definately training the skills cos if thats they its gonna be thats the way its gonna be.
Shame on Goonswarm if you don't have at least someone on able to lead a gang you've got a large enough group to do so. I already know in my corp there are several people (all in different timezones planning to immeditately focus on getting these new skills trained)
And yes the blob does need sorted These gangs please note can in theory have a max amount of 250 members in a full fleet with maxed skills.
My surprise is Goonfleet complaining they won't have enough players "qualified" to run a fleet. Considering your group is 10 times greater than my own corp yet it appears we will have enough people to function under the new gang system.
I think you're misunderstanding our argument. We will certainly have pilots with these skills. That's not really the issue. The issue is one of nuisance and convenience ("crap, the guy with FC skills crashed out. Ok, everyone form into small gangs till he gets back" "ok, all three of our euro time zone fc's had to attend to real life issues tonight. So no gangs for anybody")
Anyway, if you don't want to listen to us, listen to all the other people in big alliances. We aren't the only people pointing out flaws with this design. |
Taaketa Frist
The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.05 02:49:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Taaketa Frist on 05/11/2006 02:53:51
Um... organise your big fleets better then? Plan ahead? Is it really too much to ask?
And isn't the gang already formed if your FC dropped out anyway? SO why would you go ahead and reform the gang anyway, if once he reconnects he'll automatically rejoin the gang (provided its within a certain timelimit)
I am listening to you but I believe your points are moot and are showing a relative level of ignorance of the new system. Please beaware that no one has been able to try it out yet simply because the skills have not been seeded yet. But everyone is bashing it on the basis that forming a large gang with bonuses now requires a skill to do so. --------------
Dang nabit |
Alekanderu
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.05 03:16:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Alekanderu on 05/11/2006 03:18:06 Edited by: Alekanderu on 05/11/2006 03:17:34 I don't see how people can claim that this will "nerf blobs", thus reducing lag. Every major alliance knows that "blobbing" (ie bringing as many ships to the fight as possible) is perhaps the single most important element of any fleet action, and this will not change. We'll still see people cramming as many ships into systems as they can (thus causing lag), it's just that it'll be more of a hassle getting them organized into gangs.
This is just a heavy-handed attempt by the devs to artificially limit what the players can do in the game because they don't really have a good solution to the lag/crash problem. What's next, instanced battle arenas where fleets can duke it out?
The option to warp to 0 and the upcoming hardware upgrades are great steps in the right direction. This is not.
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NZAmoeba
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.05 03:27:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Taaketa Frist Shame on Goonswarm if you don't have at least someone on able to lead a gang you've got a large enough group to do so. I already know in my corp there are several people (all in different timezones planning to immeditately focus on getting these new skills trained)
My surprise is Goonfleet complaining they won't have enough players "qualified" to run a fleet. Considering your group is 10 times greater than my own corp yet it appears we will have enough people to function under the new gang system.
Because the 'lol noobfleet' aspect still holds true to a certain extent. We have had members who have only been playing the game for a couple months leading fleets of 100 members. It was one of the biggest drawcards to get people to join us and play the game. These new mechanics stomp all over how we want/choose/have to play the game and force some arbitrary limit upon us and others.
I thought CCP wanted everything to be open ended, to allow the players to choose their own destiny and how the politics and strategy and corp management worked in this game. When you have members having fun playing the game a certain way, you encourage that and make sure the game can handle it. You don't force the players to play it your way.
If the code canÆt handle giant fleets, you fix the code, not the players.
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NAFnist
Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.05 03:38:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Oveur What the new gang limitations and the split into squadrons are addressing is the performance hit on your gang, where your gang is what's crashing the node. It's not only the damage indicators, it's also the multitude of possible gang bonuses that can now possibly come from any gang member on any stat, which may or may not be active and when active/inactive, has to be propagated to all the members of your gang, which are then calculated into anything affecting those gang members, like, getting shot at.
now i get it, thanks - Regards NAFnist
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.05 03:39:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Jan Javaar
Will it be possible to "share" the FC options out? Otherwise it will be horrible during battle:
1) FC has to call targets, using shiny new options 2) warp fleet/ wing/ squadron 3) AND at the same time get people into the fleet 4) set up infrastructure (wing/ squadron leads) because someone crashes/ has to logoff 4a) and maintain that
First 2 are the real FC tasks, the other are for his staff, the XO so to speak.
The FC doesn't drive the fleet, he says where he wants the fleet to go and his XO makes it happen. Remember, in Scifi shows (and all those WWII navy movies) the captain just has his chair and view of the battle (periscope, binoculars, view screen, map+DRADAS, whatever). When the commander orders something, it is up to his staff to carry out the order - he doesn't steer the ship, he doesn't load the torpedos or pull the trigger on guns, thats up to his crew. The commander just needs a reliable view of the battle and a way to communicate his orders to his subordinates. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
KillmAll187
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Posted - 2006.11.05 05:07:00 -
[92]
Oveur wasn't saying the majority of lag rests with having big gangs, he said it was from everyone getting the ship status (damage)of the entire gang that is currently in the system. He also said the game had to calculate and apply all the leadership skills and gang mods to the entire gang in local. If you think a minute that is a ton of calculation and updates to the UI.
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William Overman
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Posted - 2006.11.05 05:10:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Hllaxiu The FC doesn't drive the fleet, he says where he wants the fleet to go and his XO makes it happen. Remember, in Scifi shows (and all those WWII navy movies) the captain just has his chair and view of the battle (periscope, binoculars, view screen, map+DRADAS, whatever). When the commander orders something, it is up to his staff to carry out the order - he doesn't steer the ship, he doesn't load the torpedos or pull the trigger on guns, thats up to his crew. The commander just needs a reliable view of the battle and a way to communicate his orders to his subordinates.
That's great for real life, but in EVE, because people play the game on their own time and have to randomly come and go, there's a serious limit on the amount of pre-planning and organization that can realistically go into a battle.
Anyhow, I too very strongly encourage CCP to talk to actual fleet commanders about this change. I think they'll find that most find it A. frustrating and B. not likely to reduce blobbing at all.
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Tragizz Fil
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Posted - 2006.11.05 06:01:00 -
[94]
Originally by: KillmAll187 Oveur wasn't saying the majority of lag rests with having big gangs, he said it was from everyone getting the ship status (damage)of the entire gang that is currently in the system. He also said the game had to calculate and apply all the leadership skills and gang mods to the entire gang in local. If you think a minute that is a ton of calculation and updates to the UI.
Nobody looks at that ship health thing anyway and it should be removed (or maybe just removed for gangs more than 10 or whatever).
As for the gang bonus problem I can't see how It could cause any sort of lag at all if it was coded competently.
Transversal, position, distance, and ship status (dead or not), not to mention laser/hybrid turret graphics, need to be recalculated every second of each battle and gang bonuses only need to be recalculated if somebody joins, leaves, or changes the status of their warfare link thing.
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Harisdrop
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.05 06:31:00 -
[95]
you now have broadcast for gangs
You can select an object in space and broadcast as a leader to align or warp to selected object. You also can broad castr enemy spoted need armor shield cap and you can brodcast you have reached destination.
Originally by: Tuxford .....stuff... Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later.
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.11.05 07:26:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Gragnor on 05/11/2006 07:29:47
Originally by: William Overman
Originally by: Hllaxiu The FC doesn't drive the fleet, he says where he wants the fleet to go and his XO makes it happen. Remember, in Scifi shows (and all those WWII navy movies) the captain just has his chair and view of the battle (periscope, binoculars, view screen, map+DRADAS, whatever). When the commander orders something, it is up to his staff to carry out the order - he doesn't steer the ship, he doesn't load the torpedos or pull the trigger on guns, thats up to his crew. The commander just needs a reliable view of the battle and a way to communicate his orders to his subordinates.
That's great for real life, but in EVE, because people play the game on their own time and have to randomly come and go, there's a serious limit on the amount of pre-planning and organization that can realistically go into a battle.
Anyhow, I too very strongly encourage CCP to talk to actual fleet commanders about this change. I think they'll find that most find it A. frustrating and B. not likely to reduce blobbing at all.
How much time is wasted in fleet gangs where the FC trys to work out what force he has? How many times have you heard "Put an x in gang chat if you're in a bs?" How many times do you have to beg to be invited into a gang? How many times do you hear an FC give an order to one class of ships to do something? And which moron has gang warped a carrier into a fight because he lost situational awareness (puts his hand up!)?
Anything that enables the FC to focus on the strategy of winning the fight, rather than stupid gang invite requests and maximises gang skills is worthwhile trying.
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Cringeley
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.05 08:02:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Cringeley on 05/11/2006 08:06:28 The thing that brought me to Eve was the emphasis on player skill over character skill. To me these changes are equivalent to, say, making people train a rank 8 skill to 5 before allowing them to engage in trade with other players. From time to time much older players placed themselves under my command when I was only a few months old in the game, because I stepped up and lead a gang when there was a need. At many other times I have placed myself under the command of players who haven't even been in the game as long as I have. Leading a gang is about a player's ability to integrate short-term information (intel) and long-term information (game mechanics), track multiple tasks, keep players informed and make good decisions on the spot. It doesn't now and should never have anything AT ALL to do with a skill that has to be trained. FCs should not be forced to choose between being able to start a good gang or being able to fly recon ships/HACs/command ships/capital ships/whatever else they might like to train for. If you think that anyone who is commanding fleets should already have a good suite of ships trained, you couldn't be more wrong. An FC's skill comes from within, from the player's own intelligence and experience, and I've known players who were brilliant FCs who didn't even have Frigate V.
Originally by: Gragnor Anything that enables the FC to focus on the strategy of winning the fight
How does this "enable the FC to focus" on anything? It's purely restrictive.
--------------------------------------------
Thrice is he armed who has his quarrel just, But four times he who gets his blow in fust. |
Sjoor
S.A.S
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Posted - 2006.11.05 08:15:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Oveur
In a fleet, you wil get damage states of your squad and will all be visible on maps. They will also recieve gang bonuses from all their leaders. Other squad leaders, wing commanders and the fleet commander are also represented on the map now.
3: What level of command do gang mod and skill bonuses propagate at and across what distance
In a fleet, it's the commanders in the hierarchy that give bonuses, Fleet commander give all fleet, squad leader only his squad etc. This is both an huge optimization and a preparation for more advanced gang functionality down the road, where you can have specialized squads (Formation-ish gameplay)
As tested on sisi. only the cmdr gives out gang related bonusses. So even if a fleet commander has maxed gang skills, flys a nice command ship with a ****load of nice modules and even an mindlink implant, it will not have any effect on the the members of squadrons.
As oveur stated above they (as in fleet, gang, squadron) will get bonus from fleet cmd, wing cmdr, etc etc is not how it works on sisi atm. Basicly gang mods are reduced to squdron lvl and only the squadron cmdr's gang bonus (skill or module) will effect squadron members.
No wing or fleet command skill on market tho.. would be nice to do some more testing.
---- Insta solution Remove aggro reset on jump, remove secure can concord flagging |
zoumau
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Posted - 2006.11.05 08:22:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Cringeley
Originally by: Gragnor Anything that enables the FC to focus on the strategy of winning the fight
How does this "enable the FC to focus" on anything? It's purely restrictive.
As i can see it now.. u have a fleet commander that is doing nothing but forming a gang. He is not active on the battlefield. Best way would be to train an account seperate just for gang. Leadership 5, wing command 5, fleet command 5. Set this one in station somewhere and u are done with needed gang skills. Lower commanders can do gangwarps, invites, etc etc. No need for fleet commander to be on the field. See it as a triple star general sitting in his resort, watching tv, entertaining a few females and giving out orders once after dt to his 5 wing commanders. Or as all alliances/bigger corp have, an inactive guy that has the skills for corp/alliance.
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Dwight Hammerhead
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.05 09:26:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Dwight Hammerhead on 05/11/2006 09:28:18 I have to agree with some of the goons posts here. The whole thing looks good at first reading. It doesnt at second. The carrot parts - really ok, the stick - too big. The whole nerf to gang mods and bonuses is plain stupid. Right now if I am in a 250 man gang with my command ship and I activate the bonuses it adds a lot of calculations and data untill every1 sees those bonuses in their HUD/ship stats register it and so on. Now tell me how exactly this "data" lag is going to be reduced when I have all the new skills and forming a 250 man gang and beiing a FC of it with my very same bonuses? Are they not again transmited to the very same 250 ppl? Thats one of the points.
Make it so that u can have up to 4 ppl in the main "command" wing serving as secondary commanders, and beiing able to form the gang, asign roles and flying Command ships and giving all the bonuses as it was before, and they can also appoint the main FC, who (as before) will be actually leading. Its the logical way, because the proposed system is not only nerfing the gang modules (and ppl who trained for them mind you), but also forcing ppl to train for things they dont want to. No, the "you want to be a FC, train the FC skills" argument is not valid. Why?
Because CCP said that they want to make it up to ppl that have high charisma. One of the points of this whole change was to reward ppl with high charisma, not to punish those that have low charisma. Get it straight CCP! Beiing a FC is not one of those mini-profesions you want to introduce. Mining and producing ships takes skills. Commanding ppl takes talant!
P.S. English is not my native language, but I hope my message is clear enough _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig |
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Victor Valka
Caldari Archon Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.05 11:00:00 -
[101]
I foresee that the price on +charisma implants will climb.
I like the new system.
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Dorah Hawkwing
Chosen Path Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.05 11:32:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead Edited by: Dwight Hammerhead on 05/11/2006 09:28:18 I have to agree with some of the goons posts here. The whole thing looks good at first reading. It doesnt at second. The carrot parts - really ok, the stick - too big. The whole nerf to gang mods and bonuses is plain stupid. Right now if I am in a 250 man gang with my command ship and I activate the bonuses it adds a lot of calculations and data untill every1 sees those bonuses in their HUD/ship stats register it and so on. Now tell me how exactly this "data" lag is going to be reduced when I have all the new skills and forming a 250 man gang and beiing a FC of it with my very same bonuses? Are they not again transmited to the very same 250 ppl? Thats one of the points.
Make it so that u can have up to 4 ppl in the main "command" wing serving as secondary commanders, and beiing able to form the gang, asign roles and flying Command ships and giving all the bonuses as it was before, and they can also appoint the main FC, who (as before) will be actually leading. Its the logical way, because the proposed system is not only nerfing the gang modules (and ppl who trained for them mind you), but also forcing ppl to train for things they dont want to. No, the "you want to be a FC, train the FC skills" argument is not valid. Why?
Main difference is that with new system, the game only has to check 'Who is fleet/squad/wing commander, and what leadership skills does he have, instead of testing and comparing all 250 gang members in system with each other for highest bonus.. wich would result in 250! (250 + 249 + 248 .. + n + 1) checks per skill. Awesome more checks than just checking 15 slots in an org chart.
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Xasz
G.H.O.S.T
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Posted - 2006.11.05 14:58:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Seraphim Io I will keep this short and sweet.
The gang size change will kill PVP. DEV'S!!! TUX!!! AND EVERYONE ELSE STOP MUCKING WITH THINGS THAT AREN'T BROKEN!
QFT. Either give us the option to form basic gangs AND new fleets, or just scrap the fleet system altogether.
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Amon 'Chakai
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.05 15:04:00 -
[104]
tjaah, we'll see how it goes.. if you want to be fc.. get the skills atleast it's supposedly only dedicated people there who have support of they'r ally so they know that aren't wasting SP because they'll actually be commanding.
Doubt anyone would let a non-skilled even lead a fleet if he would have the skills trained.
Just bit extra cost to those who want to lead and reap the glory so to speak.
Anyways worth of the testing though it sounds like more a SP sink than anything else. ??====??====??====??====??====??====??====??====??==?? If eve even makes close up to 60-70k+ dollars per day as budget.. they could throw about 140k-300k easily to hardware upgrade once per year.
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Saerid
Amarr FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.05 15:28:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Oveur
Old gang is still available but has the following limitations (which might change): Max 50 members, no damage state updates, no members visible in seamless map and no gang bonuess work. Some of the new stuff works, like the roles and the gang broadcast messages.
Worth reiterating, since there seems to be some confusion (or lack of reading comprehension). While 50 isn't that much nowadays it's enough for roaming gangs. It's big enough to work with, in short. Also good points on the performance issues.
Random thoughts: - Command ships just hopped a few notches up on the "who to call primary" list, people flying them are bound to be at least squad commanders. If you're not, you might as well be in a battleship after all. - Should the gang mods work in warp now? If you need to be the lead to get them to work, having them work only when not moving sounds like a bit unnecessary chore, considering all of the fleet is not necessarily on one place and can (and often does) move out of sync. Like, say, tacklers losing their MWD and scram range bonus when the heavies go into warp to get to whatever they were tackling. Bad juju.
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pardux
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.05 16:28:00 -
[106]
can we have the ability to move the broadcast/fleet etc stuff away from the overview ? it has too much crap already, hard to find targets when you play in low res. (need 1280x720 for frapsing)
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Grytok
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Posted - 2006.11.05 16:59:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Grytok on 05/11/2006 17:02:51 Edited by: Grytok on 05/11/2006 17:02:29 I don't understand where you all see the problems with the new system.
All you'll need to do, is to train a char up to match the requirements you need for your fleet. But this does not mean, that the real FC has to train all those skills.
The char with the new skills is only therefore, to tell the situation and to transfer messages to the wings and squads.
This has nothing to do with delegating the whole fleet. The "new" FC-chars just needs to sit on a SS and open up the map to tell everything what happened to the "real" FCs.
The characters with the new skills will be an OP-Center. They don't call primaries or whatever, just provide information.
I like it .
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2006.11.05 17:09:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 05/11/2006 17:12:24 I am behind these changes 99%. I do not agree with any of the negative comments. I am not one for adding more skills, but this is only adding ONE skill.
If you are commanding gangs with a noob alt, then too bad for you and your gangs. If you don't fight along with your pilots, or command from a covert ops ship, then you are not a warrior but a politician, go train some other skills... There are Leadership skills and Squadron which leaders should have now. "Command" ship pilots already have Leadership V and Squadron Command IV at least. So I'm not buying all this training time.
The only thing I don't like is removing targeting bonus from leadership and adding it to a new skill. That is blatant useless skill pimping and should not be done. Think of the children!
Also note that a standard unskilled gang can be formed by anyone, with 50 pilots!
I did not play myself by lowering my charisma. All my skills are within 4 points of each other. Thats what you get for trying to outsmart the system. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
Trac3rt
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.05 17:21:00 -
[109]
Originally by: pardux
can we have the ability to move the broadcast/fleet etc stuff away from the overview ? it has too much crap already, hard to find targets when you play in low res. (need 1280x720 for frapsing)
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0611/K_Gang_Overview.jpg Looks like I will need to buy a widescreen monitor and turn it sideways to see the gang hierarchy. This is going to be detatchable to that those of us who paly in 1024x768 can use the overview and manage a gang at the same time... right...RIGHT?
There are two main complaints that people have with the system. The first is related to the implementation of the system, breaking fleets up into smaller groups, losing the ability to delegate tasks, increased organisation required to get people to play together.
The second complaint is the skill requirements. Forcing people to train months worth of skills to make larger gangs, the massive barrier to entry for the newer players, and the fact that in game skills should not limit the out of game ability of an individual to rally and organise large numbers of people.
Personally, I am willing to give the new gang system a go, it looks like a FIRST STEP in the right direction. However, I do not see any reason whatsoever to force people to train skills to play with other people. I cannot think of a single reason why I should have to train leadership 5 to lead a wing, and WC 5 to lead a fleet. Those skills have absolutely no relevance to my capability to do the job, and only serve as an artificial limitation on how I want to play the game, as well as YATS (Yet-Another-Time-Sink) that is neither wanted or required.
CCP, you should not be limiting the ability for players to interact with skills. Give us these new tools to use, but dont put any skill requirements on being a FC/WC or SC when there is absolutely no reason to do so!
___
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Calenth
Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.05 18:24:00 -
[110]
Originally by: William Overman
That's great for real life, but in EVE, because people play the game on their own time and have to randomly come and go, there's a serious limit on the amount of pre-planning and organization that can realistically go into a battle.
Anyhow, I too very strongly encourage CCP to talk to actual fleet commanders about this change. I think they'll find that most find it A. frustrating and B. not likely to reduce blobbing at all.
Yeah, exactly. I'm going to quote a hypothetical from our private forums because I think it expresses the problem perfectly:
Quote:
Compare the complexity of these two hypothetical chat situatoins
An enemy gang is incoming! If we don't crush it we will be ruined!
Now: FC: I'm forming a big gang everyone x up. Players: XXXXXXXXXXXXX FC: **** I have to spend a few seconds for each person right clicking on people.
goon: the FC crashed, someone claim Dave: Ok im leader goon: alright
With Changes: FC: I'm forming a big gang FC: I need 4 people with Squad Leadership IV at least Dave: I have Squad III is that enough Steve: I have squad IV Jane: I have squad V FC: Ok hopefully this will be enough Dave: Type a Dave in chat if you are in a EWar Steve: type a Steve in chat if you are in a tackler Jane: Type a Jane if you are a Sniper in chat goon: what if we're close range FC: uhh go with Jane Dave: I'm maxed I can't fit anymore Dave: everyone else go with Steve Steve: alright im almost full Jane: you guys should have given me those roles I can invite a lot Goon2: No tacklers are getting invites I think Steve crashed FC: **** I guess we're going to have to find another Squad leader Goon3: I never bothered training leadership because I want to fly my ships better Steve: full FC: everyone else go with Jane then Jane: alright so I have mostly tacklers with some ewar and snipers and a few close range guys Jane: I guess you're going to have to specify who warps where Jane: You know, like you used to
goon: ok the FC crashed Dave: nobody else has Fleet command V trained yet we can't get any more invites Steve: everyone leave the fleet, we're reforming into two fleets Jane: **** this reform the gang into 50 man plain gangs
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VortiK
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.05 18:29:00 -
[111]
Not sure if it was mentioned already but is there any plan to make the UI more customisable ?
I mean the right side of the screen is getting really overloaded now. Selected item, overview, drones and now fleet and broadcast. Think about the people on small screens/resolution and in big battle with many hostiles and a big gang to manage. Even the drone tab can need lot of space for carriers where you need to see the status of your drones etc.
Would be nice to be able to detach fleet and broadcast tabs and move them around the screen.
no sig anymore :(
What is a life, devoid of strife ? |
Xinus
SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:13:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Xinus on 05/11/2006 20:17:07 Edited by: Xinus on 05/11/2006 20:15:16
Originally by: VortiK Not sure if it was mentioned already but is there any plan to make the UI more customisable ?
I mean the right side of the screen is getting really overloaded now. Selected item, overview, drones and now fleet and broadcast. Think about the people on small screens/resolution and in big battle with many hostiles and a big gang to manage. Even the drone tab can need lot of space for carriers where you need to see the status of your drones etc.
Would be nice to be able to detach fleet and broadcast tabs and move them around the screen.
/signed
Perhaps if it would be possible to cut out specific sections and move it where you want.
Greetz Xinus
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.05 22:17:00 -
[113]
I really don't see the reason for the gangsize cap though. People without dedicated gangleaders are at a serious disadvantage as is - not for a lack of wings and squadrons, but because a low-cha or low-skill character heading a gang will deny everyone any leadership gangbonuses.
So you've carved out a more defined role for charisma, and you can leave fleets in as they are - but forcing everyone to simply interconnect seperate 50man blobs is unnecessary and stupid, and doesn't change any of the realitys of gang warfare (except making PoS warfare more tedious, because it totally wasn't frustrating enough before).
The main reason this is a bad thing is, it's promising us lag-free epic battles, but at the same time it's making them a headache to execute for absolutely no reason. :/
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.11.05 23:25:00 -
[114]
CCP seems to love "improvements" that remove functionality, then give it back to you after you train up 5m SP on a souless alt sitting idle on your 12th account.
When do you introduce chat skills? People who just joined 3 months ago can chat as good as 3 year old vets, nerf please.
Another aspect of kali that works best using alts and OOG tools, way to go.
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Satal Sonshi
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.11.05 23:37:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Dracones Suggestions:
1> Reduce the rank on these skills and make the pre-reqs level 4 on the prior skill, so forming the gangs under this new structure isn't the bottle-neck. Reasoning: This will promote this squad system instead of the loose gangs and get players used to using the new system.
2> Create a host of new skills that allow you to use the enhancements of the new squad system. Gang bonus skills, skills that expand how far a command module works, skills that allow you to broadcast overview alerts(target calling, aligning, warp-to).
3> Create a bunch of new gang and command modules with nice bonuses and possibly even penalties. Some of these modules would require command ships, others might be usable on a normal ship.
Keep the SP sinks out of #1 and put them into #2 and #3. This will make the system seem less like a nerf/obstacle for gang forming and more like boon for players that want to invest into leadership skills to enhance the gang gameplay experince.
I think this is one of the most insightful recommendations I've yet read, and I would like to promote it. The "gang-size" and "organization" should not be heavily limited by the game. It's the *bonuses* that should be limited.
Eve's skill system is predicated on the thought that you can get access to whatever you want fairly easily (e.g. I have a BS with 1.8M skillpoints), but you may or may not be particularly effective with what you have until you train the specialist skills. Train engineering, train repair systems, etc. Getting T2 is a specialist increase that takes time, but with time is worth DPS value. These things don't keep me from getting the functionality of a battleship, but they *do* keep me from having advantages over another battleship 1v1.
The gang functionality should be treated the same. You should have access (or fairly quick access) to large gangs and solid structure... BUT the bonuses that are important for gaining the final 10% advantage over the enemy require specialized study.
I fully support Dracones recommendations. Decrease (a lot) the "max persons" bottleneck, and shift that to specialist value of gang bonuses.
-= Satal =-
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Girdan Keirge
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:54:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Oveur 1: Is the old gang mechanism still available and if so has it been changed at all
Old gang is still available but has the following limitations (which might change): Max 50 members, no damage state updates, no members visible in seamless map and no gang bonuess work. Some of the new stuff works, like the roles and the gang broadcast messages.
In a fleet, you wil get damage states of your squad and will all be visible on maps. They will also recieve gang bonuses from all their leaders. Other squad leaders, wing commanders and the fleet commander are also represented on the map now.
What about the gang bonus to mining? Having to train the new fleet skills to get mining bonus seems rather worthless. Generic gangs should still fuction as they do now in regards to mining bonus.
Allowing all fleet members to see the location of all others isn't a good idea. Commanders should see everyones position, but there is is absolutely no need for a common member to know where anyone other than his squadmates are. It's already ridiculously easy for spies to get intel on gangs, this will make it even easier.
Originally by: Oveur 2: Does leadership still provide a targeting bonus and if not is there a replacement bonus somewhere
It does not. I believe there is a seperate gang skill for it now.
According to the screenshots of what's currently in testing, the bonus is still listed. Whether it is applied or not is unknown.
Originally by: Oveur 7: How many gang chat windows will people have and who will be in them
Not determined yet. This will also change in the future when we will allow fleet leaders to liste to two channels simultaneously (like be on commander channel and fleet channel). Chat channels might change according to that setup.
More chat channels are bad. Most Corps/Alliances already have several channels open just as standard procedure. We are forced to have the Corp and Alliance channel, but since we can't put in a MOTD, there is another channel for each just to set a MOTD. Add in a separate Alliance-wide Intel channel, perhaps a trade channel, plus the current 1 gang channel and a separate Gang Intel channel, and that's 8 chats open just to know what's going on. I'm sure there are also other channels that get created, say for Corp/Alliance leadership that the regular player doesn't see. Then add in a private chat or 3 and it really starts getting silly.
All Commanders should be able to see chat from all members of the fleet, and all members should see all chat from Commanders. (Excluding a special 'Commanders' chat) I see a hostile and say so, my SC relays to the WC, who relays to the FC is fine and dandy for the real military, but EVE is a game and is an unnecessary burden on everyone. Not allowing separate squads to see each other's chat is fine.
Originally by: Oveur 12: How do you assemble this multitiered structure
Create a gang, convert it to a fleet, the hierachy then expands as you assign leaders.
Who ultimately has control over the fleet? Can I, having only Leadership 4, create a gang, convert it, assign someone the WC/FC role but still be in control of invites and assigning other roles? Must whomever has the role of WC/FC be the physical gang leader? Must someone with Wing Command 'create' a wing by inviting the leader of two or more Squads?
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Girdan Keirge
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:55:00 -
[117]
I really like the idea of the fleet command structure, but placing a skillset on it is not really the best way to go. It adds yet another timesink to the game.
I created a fairly well balanced character with Charisma 15 (base 6, plus training) and currently only have Leadership 1. If I went the full command route, it would take me approximately 6.5 days for Leadership 5, 56 days for Wing Command 5, and 15 hours for Fleet Command 2 (another 15 days for Fleet Command 4). Fleet Command 2 is a minimum since you can't have a 'fleet' of 1 wing. That's a total of 63 days just to get a 'fleet' of 2 wings. That would allow me to have up to 2 wings of 5 squads of 10 members. A 100 member gang is fairly substantial but many 'fleets' are smaller than that, yet they still need the benefit of fleet commanders.
Perhaps combine Wing Command and Fleet Command to something like: level 1 - 2 squads level 2 - 2 squads level 3 - 1 squad, 2 wings level 4 - 2 wings level 5 - 1 wing Make it a rank 12 skill. End result is that wings of 2-4 squads can be formed quickly, and smaller fleets of 2-4 wings can be created fairly quickly, but still requires some skill investment.
A better idea would be to make Leadership 5 the prereq for Wing Command, and Wing Command 2 or 3 the prereq for Fleet Command. Leave the skill ranks as they are. That's about one week of training to get Leadership 5 then each player can decide how far they need to train for Wing or Fleet Command.
In it's current state, learning the Fleet Command skill gives no actual bonus to gangs in and of itself, but by creating the ability to form fleets that can be divided into various sized groups, then requiring months of training to be able to create those divisions makes people question the value of them and the reasoning for adding them in the first place.
Similar to the 'chat relay chain of command' I mentioned before, in the real military, you don't get to be Commander overnight, but EVE is a game, and forcing players to now spend months of training to do what they've already been doing will only serve to alienate your paying customers. If this were still beta, it'd be a different story. Moving the fence this late in the game is not a good idea. Just ask anyone that played Star Wars Galaxies how much they liked having their fence moved several times in less than a year.
I really tried to stay positive and think that the new gang structure is a great addition, at least in concept, but the current implimentation is a bit lacking.
For the most part, whether you choose to be a fighter, miner, or producer, you can do any of the others with a modest skill investment. You won't be the best at it of course, but you can contribute. Command is not a 'mini-profession', it's a permanent job and doesn't allow any flexibility to do anything else. Basically, players now get to choose whether they want to contribute to your corp as a whole by fighting, mining, transport, or whatever else they may need, or you can sit at a POS as a 'Commander'. At least until you've spent a couple years in the game. The gang bonus skills/mods already require a large investment in time. You can do both, but the added training time makes it a huge time when you can't really do anything well. Even moreso than currently.
To me, all this will do is create even more Alts. I really don't care for Alts, and think it takes away accountability from players. Makes it easy to create spies, throw-away pirates, corporate theives, etc. which gives victims no recourse and the perpetrators no reason to worry about consequences. Makes Corp leaders train higher level Management skills without really getting more people involved in the Corp. Sure, I've made an alt to check prices in some hub system, but that's it. I'm just a fan of the 'post with you main' attitude. One account = one character per server.
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Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.06 04:05:00 -
[118]
The "target!" broadcast range needs to be extended to max lock range. I could target someone but not tell others to attack him.
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu |
Vera Nosfyu
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.06 05:26:00 -
[119]
I really like the added gang organization, along with the new uses for charisma, which is horribly weak compared to other stats.
However, I think that rank 8 and 12 skills is a wee bit excessive. For any who are unsure of waht that equates to, let me give you examples: Minmatar Battleship is rank 8, Minmatar dreadnought is rank 12. I think that requiring you to have as many SP for your FC as for your dread pilots is a bit excessive. Especially when you consider that FC's will only be able to start training when Kali (or maybe just whent he skills) are released. This means that FCs will have to stop whatever they're doing and train for well over a month in order to lead again, and 2-4 months to get back where they were before.
No one wants to have to train for that long just to do what they had always been doing. I propose that it's just... scaled back a bit. Use rank 3 and 8 skills, let's say. It will still take a notable and dedicated training to reach V in both, but at the same time it won't be truly debilitating to the FC's to add a few weeks of training. -----------------------------------------------------------
"Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin |
TOGAKURE Daisuke
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Posted - 2006.11.06 06:33:00 -
[120]
Edited by: TOGAKURE Daisuke on 06/11/2006 06:33:10 Here are my screenshots from the Fleet test we had on the weekend at the SiSi with some Supers:
http://www.blosphere.net/~sty/eve/SiSi/
The screenshots about the gangs start from somewhere middle.
Try to figure out some features from the screenshots, I don't want to start telling everything here. So look at the pics first, and then ask questions. I'll try to answer what I experienced.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.06 08:37:00 -
[121]
Originally by: TOGAKURE Daisuke Edited by: TOGAKURE Daisuke on 06/11/2006 06:33:10 Here are my screenshots from the Fleet test we had on the weekend at the SiSi with some Supers:
http://www.blosphere.net/~sty/eve/SiSi/
The screenshots about the gangs start from somewhere middle.
Try to figure out some features from the screenshots, I don't want to start telling everything here. So look at the pics first, and then ask questions. I'll try to answer what I experienced.
(hi Sty! :)
Cool, thanks for the pics. I have to say that looks very hot, once all the bugs have been ironed out. Being able to quickly assign targets, give "align to" commands, ask for help etc and have it easily visible who is saying what is something any gang/fleet commander would love to have.
I still love the idea that this needs Charisma, and like the idea of skills. Maybe the old-style gang limit should be increased a bit to let the Goons have their unskilled zillion-person gangs... but dunno. But in any case, the new style squadrons and fleets requiring skills is very good imho -- it's very much a mini-profession now; now it will just *also* need in-game skills, not just ooc. Maybe the rank8 and rank12 reqs are excessive, but otoh with the current sisi ranks it's trivial to train for 40 person gangs, after that it gets slower. I'm not sure if it should be all that easy, skillwise, to lead bigger fleets than that. Dunno.
Maybe rank6 and rank10 would be a small bit more reasonable?
In any case, I'm personnally very much looking forward to this, especially now after those screenshots. Cool stuff.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.06 08:42:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Vera Nosfyu
No one wants to have to train for that long just to do what they had always been doing.
That's the thing. We'll still have the old-style gangs, requiring no skills. Granted those are limited to 50 max and don't give bonuses anymore, but they still allow you to do most of the old stuff. Coordinating multiple 50-person gangs via TS is not rocket science.
The new stuff is *not* "what they have always been doing", judging by the info we have so far there will be a lot of very nice new toys and abilities for the gang/fleet commanders. If you want your hands on those, you get the skills. I think it's totally reasonable. Though the ranks could be scaled down a *bit* (not much, it's important to make Charisma important now and not just a "minimize this" stat).
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Aralis
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 09:05:00 -
[123]
Lot of nice stuff but some concerns. Wouldn't it be better for everyone - and save more stress on the servers if you:
1) Abolish the old style gangs altogether. 2) Let anyone form the new style gangs but only give the fancy features and bonuses to those with the skills?
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Gramtar
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.06 12:10:00 -
[124]
Beyond what's already been stated (remove basic gang size limitation, reduce rank of new skills), I have a suggestion. More basic functionality, things that would help gang and fleet commanders much more, is missing:
1. Fleet composition. If you've formed a gang, or taken leadership after joining, it's the first thing you ask. How many Battleships do I have? How many EWAR ships? Who are my covops and dictor pilots? Creating a display (preferably that only Fleet / Wing / Squad leaders can view) that shows your gang's composition would be a great addition.
2. Disconnect / leave gang notification. Did someone just crash after jumping into that system?
That's all I can think of at this time. Perhaps others can suggest additional pragmatic needs.
These are my personal views and do not represent my Corporation or Alliance |
Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.06 12:31:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Satal Sonshi
I Fully Support Dracones Recommendations
I think this is one of the most insightful recommendations I've yet read, and I would like to promote it. The "gang-size" and "organization" should not be heavily limited by the game. It's the *bonuses* that should be limited.
Eve's skill system is predicated on the thought that you can get access to whatever you want fairly easily (e.g. I have a BS with 1.8M skillpoints), but you may or may not be particularly effective with what you have until you train the specialist skills.
This is how it will become as well, with the new cascading gang bonuses, the fleet commander trains the skill to create the gang, and then has to train the other (support) leadership skills to make the most of their position within the fleet as far as gang bonuses go.
Skill requirements to form the fleets should be dropped completely, the people who put those with leadership skills at the top of the pyramid will have an advantage over those who do not. Regular FCs and Wing Commanders will still be encouraged to train the leadership skills to give the best bonuses to the gangs they can.
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:43:00 -
[126]
I think it's reasonable to only require rank 4 in the pre-requisit to learn the next stage up.
i.e. leadership 4 to train wing command 4 to train fleet command or whatever the order is :)
The true specialists can then put in the extra time if required (do we need a level above fleet command? Armada Command FTW!) to get the last few squads/wings in but at least a basic fleet can be trained for without.
Level 4 on each gives: 8 man squads in 4 squad wings in 4 wing fleets: 8*4*4 = 32*4 = 132
Level 5 in each gives: 10*5*5 = 250
So there is still a big call there for people to start training them up for the bigger fleets.
You really need to be able to delegate roles to gang members - i.e. make certain people able to assign targets, or gang warp, or invite new members - so that the work of running the fleet can be spread out.
Zarch AlDain
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Calenth
Amarr GoonPlatoon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.06 14:25:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Calenth on 06/11/2006 14:31:31
Originally by: Zarch AlDain The true specialists can then put in the extra time if required (do we need a level above fleet command? Armada Command FTW!)
Almost certainly, if the gang size caps stay in.
edit to clarify: gangs that large are rare even for us, I'm not sure if I've ever been in a gang over that 250 person proposed cap, but I just hate the idea of artificial limitations like that. If six hundred eve players want to have a 300-person-per-side battle, why do fifty guys on each side have to be in the Runt Squad, just because of an arbitrary game restriction? |
momotaro
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.06 15:05:00 -
[128]
so let me get this right in a summary:
- CCP want us to train so we can have gang boosts from a command ship. - isnt there a matter of time before most of us have gang skills, what then? we find oureselves in the same point we left. - who needs health bar in gang? i havent opened the gang window in overview in almost a year. - why do i feel this is just a delay until CCP can fix the server code issues? and all this is done under the cover of a "re-design"
just my 2 cents, and also i'm trying to be as less acidic about this because posts or threads tend to dissapear or get locked. (*)(*) The nail that stands out gets hammered.
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Bein Glorious
GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.06 19:37:00 -
[129]
It seems to me that with the ability to broadcast messages like "I need to be repaired" or "I'm running low on cap", you could do away with the gang health status list entirely, and I don't think anyone would complain about losing it.
Sig removed, lacks game related content. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler TRIP DRIVE ACTIVE |
Satal Sonshi
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.11.06 21:04:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Fubear
Skill requirements to form the fleets should be dropped completely, the people who put those with leadership skills at the top of the pyramid will have an advantage over those who do not. Regular FCs and Wing Commanders will still be encouraged to train the leadership skills to give the best bonuses to the gangs they can.
Pegged it!
Forming fleets (of any size!) should not be the challenge. Making those fleets *more advantageous* than their enemies is what leaders should be training for.
I support ZERO skill requirements for gang formation (of all sizes), with all skill training relating directly to fleet bonuses.
This is the best way to propagate the fleet system into the EVE universe. Give organizational capabilities to the players, and then let *us* figure out what to do with them.
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Tolomea
Gallente 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:25:00 -
[131]
Until the devs decide to give us more info we need to do more testing to acquire the info ourselves. It's no where near as cut and dry as it would appear. For example last night I with no leadership skills what so ever formed a fleet with 2 wing commanders. Granted there wern't many people in those wings and we didn't get the time to experiment much to see if they were fully functional. But still there was me and my 2 wings.
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Kerules Yor
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Posted - 2006.11.06 22:55:00 -
[132]
I'll echo what's already been said, just to emphasise that many people are concerned.
Why limit the size of plain gangs if you've removed the overhead that made large gangs expensive on the servers? The limit will do nothing but make FCs sigh and form another gang of 50, and coordinate everyone over Teamspeak/Ventrillo like we do already.
Fleets, as I see them, are less about getting 250 players together and more about completely nerfing gang bonuses. Currently everyone in gang gets all the best bonuses available. If you have 10 guys in battlecruisers running different warfare links, they all apply to everyone. In a fleet the soldiers get gang bonuses from AT MOST 3 people. One of those people has to train up a dreadnought-rank skill for the privilege of sitting in a safespot somewhere. Another of those is the squad leaders, of which you need one for every 10 players. It's very unlikely that all 25 squad leaders will want or be able to fly command ships, so you're down to just 2 people giving gang bonuses to each soldier.
And that's IF you find 5 command ship pilots who want to train the charisma equivalent of Battleship V, and one with the CHA equivalent of Dreadnought V.
The new Counterstrike-like broadcast commands seem cute but ultimately useless. "Enemy spotted!" Okay, where? how many? what ship types? are they alligned on anything, jumping in/jumping out? All this needs to be typed in gang/squad chat anyway. Or more likely, spoken on Teamspeak. These tools don't make up for the huge multiplayer SP-sink required for fleets, or the added complexity of organising a fleet.
Bottom line, I think the changes are more likely to dissuade players from specialising in leadership/gang assists. If gang bonuses are nerfed anyway, people will just use plain gangs.
As suggestions for improvement: 1) lower the rank of the fleet skills would be a start, so they are more in line with the advantages fleets provide. Or make the prereqs for advancement at level 4. and/or 2) increase the effectiveness of gang bonuses, or give fleets more advantages.
I would do (1) or both. You're killing gang bonuses either way by limiting their spread, no sense in being overly brutal with the SP-sink.
Other suggestions for features: I liked Gramtar's Fleet composition idea. Expanding on that, I'd like the ability to rename squads/wings for organisation purposes. Naming squads "snipers", "tacklers", "ewar-a" "ewar-b", etc. would help the FCs see at a glance how many they have and which squads to place new members in.
This is a bigger change but, instead of the burden always being on squad leaders to invite and move members, allow members to request transfer to other squads/wings, and the leader would only have to click "okay". In conjunction with named squads it would make it much easier for pilots to sort themselves into squadrons by roles.
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Kiah Khan
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2006.11.07 00:37:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Bein Glorious It seems to me that with the ability to broadcast messages like "I need to be repaired" or "I'm running low on cap", you could do away with the gang health status list entirely, and I don't think anyone would complain about losing it.
Actually, one of the things players were asking for just a few months ago, was a way to boost logistic ships. Logistic ships are useless because it's nearly impossible to find and target the friendly person who needs armor/shield/cap ect before they are blown up. This way, logistic ships can at least try to be used in gangs and rely on their fellow members to alert they need armor or shield.
I'm not saying it will work. But it's certainly not useless.
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Kiah Khan
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2006.11.07 00:52:00 -
[134]
Another quick question. What happens to the "Squadron Command" Skill? Right now you need Leadership 5 before you get squad command, and Squad command 5 before you get Wing Command. But on the testing server it looks like Squad command is sorta being left out of the whole gang command features. Will that skill be renamed? or given another use?
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Gordon Red
SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.07 06:16:00 -
[135]
Remove the new skills as a requirement, but set on the new system you have developped!
The FC, does NEEDING all this new management options (damage reports, help orders, assign targets), but to be able to do his job he has to skill 1-2+ month (assuming he has choosen the right attribute some years ago)?!?
A good FC is a rare gem and with this new skills it is "impossible" to cut this gem into shape. The system itself is interesting and let a good FC shine even brighter.
Blobwars are boring and not good for the server (and so not good for us), but you shouldn't limit the cunning players due to skill requirement.
With this compromise you can enhance the game, with this skill system you will destroy very much.
(The game will change anyway, smaller corps/alliances with skilled player will be more effective as today against big bloblike corps/alliances)
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evistin
Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.07 06:47:00 -
[136]
I honsetly do not see the point of an artifical cap like this.
There is nothing stoping 200 players forming 20 10 man groups. If you think this is a C&C nightmare its actually a vast improvement to actually management, just like the army has section leaders and platoon commanders.
This will require alots of people to train skills, but when properly manage, I bet good money, we will see even BIGGER blob wars. -----------
Management and Leadership |
Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.11.07 09:56:00 -
[137]
I like the new gang feature to some extent.
When doing antipirate - operations it is often necessary to split up in two or three sub - fleets but still stay under one command. This way it can be done.
But the extreme training times must be fixed. Multipliers > 5 are not acceptable.
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Decairn
Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 13:31:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Decairn on 07/11/2006 13:32:19
Originally by: Kiah Khan Another quick question. What happens to the "Squadron Command" Skill? Right now you need Leadership 5 before you get squad command, and Squad command 5 before you get Wing Command. But on the testing server it looks like Squad command is sorta being left out of the whole gang command features. Will that skill be renamed? or given another use?
It's been renamed to Warfare Link Specialist. --Decairn
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Tolomea
Gallente 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.11.07 13:33:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Tolomea Until the devs decide to give us more info we need to do more testing to acquire the info ourselves. It's no where near as cut and dry as it would appear. For example last night I with no leadership skills what so ever formed a fleet with 2 wing commanders. Granted there wern't many people in those wings and we didn't get the time to experiment much to see if they were fully functional. But still there was me and my 2 wings.
Originally by: TomB
You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players.
Told you so, well that puts a big whole in all the "sky is falling"/"world is ending" posts.
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Celestis Kudzu
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:37:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Celestis Kudzu on 07/11/2006 14:37:50
Quote: You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players.
I hope this hasn't been covered but how are gang bonuses applied if you only have enough skill points to give say 20 bonuses in a gang of 60? Hopefully there will be a way to selectively apply bonuses to gang members. Or is it an all or nothing application where if you cannot support everyone under you with bonuses then no bonuses are applied?
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:40:00 -
[141]
Heheheheheheh. Whining 4tl :P
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Ralitge boyter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:09:00 -
[142]
Please be so kind as to take into account laptop users...
How can one ever have drones, a gang and a enemy at the same time...
Sorry guys but we need to be able to separate the overview and the drones/gang/fleet boxes at least one of them to over come the handicap of smaller screens.
I know, and yes I will, buy a better computer but only when Vista is there not just jet... so till that time I am stuck with a small screen and can forget about being useful as a fleet member as I just miss half the screen ------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me. |
Harisdrop
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:36:00 -
[143]
TomB explains
Thanks TomB now we understand
Originally by: Tuxford .....stuff... Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.11.07 15:40:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Oveur What the new gang limitations and the split into squadrons are addressing is the performance hit on your gang, where your gang is what's crashing the node. It's not only the damage indicators, it's also the multitude of possible gang bonuses that can now possibly come from any gang member on any stat, which may or may not be active and when active/inactive, has to be propagated to all the members of your gang, which are then calculated into anything affecting those gang members, like, getting shot at.
Silly suggesting but as I read what you are saying all gang related bonus calculations are being redone per session change, which is causing node crashes and/or extreme server stress. Can't you simply change that dynamic so that those calculations are only done when a gang member joins or leaves the gang? That would solve a lot of wasted cpu overhead I'm tempted to think at the cost of sacrificing 'the have to be in same system to receive bonusses requirement'. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
Dwight Hammerhead
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:07:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Dwight Hammerhead on 07/11/2006 16:13:11 Originally by: TomB --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aahaha, which is a nerf to gang module users, which as i said are not always the actual fleet commanders. Make a seperate role for thos ppl ffs, this is a bloody stupid and unnecesarry nerf.
An intereseting discussion here, and a lot of valid points and nice suggestions, although i still stand by what I said earlier - reward the high Charisma ppl, dont punish the rest. Ppl in Command ships are not always Fleet Commanders. I fly mine because I like giving bonuses to the other ppl, not because I want to lead a fleet. I cant. If this system enters the game as it is considered atm it will be extremely stupid and frustrating. Gimping ppl and removing functuonality is not the way to go just because u cant fix your server problems any other way.
I dont really plan to burn my head now and think of possible solutions. Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl thing they would have actually opened a discussion a long time ago, showing their idea and waiting for feedback and suggestions. Right now they are just asking us to test the bugs, noone will lift a finger simply because they dont have the time to change it. It will just enter in Kali, screw a lot of things, and they will rearange it again in Kali 2 when ppl are irritated enough. Thats how all those major changes work. Good job ppl, keep it up.
p.s. Yes, I want a skill that allows me to have more convos open per level. Will be da shi_zzlick! _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:12:00 -
[146]
Love the new gang system, however.... How is this supposed to fit on your screen, especially when you are a drone user... ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
Miranda Duvall
Gallente OPM Holdings
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Posted - 2006.11.07 16:50:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Miranda Duvall on 07/11/2006 16:53:08 Would it be possible to get a skill rename? Just for clarity..
As it stands now:
you can command a fleet: Fleet Command you can command a wing: Wing Command you can command a squadron: Leadership you are very good with gang modules: Squadron Command
Please change it into: Current "Leadership" becomes "Squadron Command" Current "Squadron Command" becomes "Warfare Link Specialist"
All the names then actually reflect what they do, keeping the current "Squadron Command" as is will generate a lot of confusion, and if you're ever going to change it, now is the time, since it's all new to all of us anyway.
skills top 20 My skill list |
Horsefly
Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.11.07 17:07:00 -
[148]
seems in the new dev blog forum thread that you will be able to make upto a 256 man gang. You just wont be able to assign a FC until somone has enough skills for that. that means noone will be able to give everyone there gang bonuses in the beginning. I personnally will like this idea now. I was kinda opposed to it before finding out that you can make a 256 man fleet in the begining just not have the cool stuff until you get the skills.
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Kiah Khan
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2006.11.07 17:36:00 -
[149]
It is my hope that with this new system most people in the gang will be able to warp into combat with our overview's closed. By this, I mean that if we can call targets out in the broadcast, or via other means, we won't need to load overview and just rely on targeting through those links.
I haven't been able to log into SiSi yet, but is this a possibility? And if so, will closing overview help to save space on the right?
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Effei Gloom
Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.07 18:35:00 -
[150]
i would like to see a chain of command in gang,
so when the actuell "boss" lost his ship the next takes automatic leadership
the "boss" should be able to set up a chain of 5 pilots to follow his leadership, therefore can link targets into gang overview,
and:
How is it with a passive targeter that even works when you are clocked? -> fleet commander would not be primaried all the time. I would even preferre a new ship class = cov ops fleet command ships. You should have 250km lock range target even if clocked and not possibly to fitt any guns :)
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Roxanna Kell
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:00:00 -
[151]
New gang system is badly done. the end.
Quote: "Don't touch the RED butt |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:30:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell New gang system is badly done. the end.
Well, that was well reasoned and informative.
Ok then, I'm sure the CCP boys will get right on it and scrap the current system and recode everything until it meets your approval. Have a chair while you wait.
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Malena
Perpetual Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.07 22:08:00 -
[153]
Originally by: DrAtomic Love the new gang system, however.... How is this supposed to fit on your screen, especially when you are a drone user...
QFT!!!!
This is darned close to my line of thinking...although I went more to the "I wonder if I will actually be able to see my ship on the screen with all this other stuff on there..."
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.07 22:46:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Miranda Duvall Current "Squadron Command" becomes "Warfare Link Specialist"
This change is already in place on SiSi
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Satal Sonshi
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:08:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead Edited by: Dwight Hammerhead on 07/11/2006 16:13:11 Aahaha, which is a nerf to gang module users, which as i said are not always the actual fleet commanders. Make a seperate role for thos ppl ffs, this is a bloody stupid and unnecesarry nerf.
An intereseting discussion here, and a lot of valid points and nice suggestions, although i still stand by what I said earlier - reward the high Charisma ppl, dont punish the rest. Ppl in Command ships are not always Fleet Commanders. I fly mine because I like giving bonuses to the other ppl, not because I want to lead a fleet. I cant. If this system enters the game as it is considered atm it will be extremely stupid and frustrating. Gimping ppl and removing functuonality is not the way to go just because u cant fix your server problems any other way.
I think I agree with you, but I haven't yet tested it. I'm logging into SiSi right now, and invite everyone who wants to test the Gang System to get ahold of me. My plan is to create a full-bore fleet and experiment with what our capabilities really are without having trained enough. What new functionality do we get, other than the ability to organize ourselves better in our overview
The *one* problem that I have with the new system (btw, Thank You TomB! That's the kind of definitions we need!) is that you can't command a wing until you've trained so far. I think that this fact will not actually solve the issue that many people in this thread have: wait times for functionality == teh suck.
I do not believe that limiting functionality is the way to improve warefare mechanics. The system just described looks like it will still promote BLOB Warefare, because there are too many commanders needing too much skill time in order to gain the command functionality of the new Fleet System. It will allow groups to head out under command of their squad leader, yes, but the person in control of those squad leaders should be recognized as such in-game, and not have to rely on having 5 10-man squads and just telling them what to do on TS. That commander should be IN COMMAND, bar none.
- Limited advantages should be what applies, not limited functionality.
- *Anyone*, or at most, all those having trained Leadership 5, should be able to be a commander of a Fleet or a commander of a Wing. It shouldn't just be an empty spot. Someone should be able to command it and have the functionality of control over said Fleet/Wing.
- However, those commanders should not give out bonuses unless they have trained enough to *give* Wing bonuses; or *give* fleet bonuses.
This way, you still promote training the skills, but you don't gimp warefare and control.
If the intent is to get rid of BLOB warefare and improve the system, this is the way to do it. Give all, or a large, easily grown subset of, characters access but make them work to gain advantage.
-= Satal =-
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Dalekplunger Slick
Caldari DPS Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:24:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Dalekplunger Slick on 07/11/2006 23:23:59 Oh god tell me how to rename my fleet and wings and squads! Wing 1 Wing 2 Squad 1 Squad 2 just won't do the trick
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Kappas.
Galaxy Punks Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:58:00 -
[157]
I'd like to ask if they could make the gang window (displaying members, status, etc) detachable and moveable, probably more for Gallente (drone users)
The reason I'm asking this is because unless you play the game on a one million by one million resolution, it makes it difficult to be able to see all your gang/squadron/fleet members and status, as well as manage your drones in space.
I usually just have the gang bar minimised, but I guess with the changes i cant keep it like that any more
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Skeltek
Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:59:00 -
[158]
this way a lvl4 spec character will not feel totaly useless when somebody with lvl5 is present. I don¦t really understand you guys. I got almost minimized charisma and it takes me 5-6 days to become basic wingcommander(leadership5+wingcommand). Every alliance¦s fleetcommander has to train the new skills if they are needed. You will not get a big disadvantage if you need 65 days instead of 60 in comparison to them.
Regarding the "mining foreman skill": It really shouldn¦t be a problem of training 6-7 days to be able to lead a 20-30 man sized miningop.
Only every TENTH person needs leadership5(5 days training). Even lvl4(1 day training) will do in most cases. The FC doesn¦t need to have warfare links, his wingcommanders should suffice for that. I think it is perfect like CCP planed it, even though I¦ll have to train longer with my int>mem>perception>willpower>charisma character. And in most of the cases, new gangleaders start out commanding smaller gangs anyways, can proove themselves as WingCommanders and maybe also command a Fleet one day with others giving the gangbonuses.
kind regards, Skeltek
ps: I am stunningly suprised that the new gangsystem turned out EXACTLY as I speculated it to be the best solution in our forums; regarding lag, effect, cause and easyness to use.
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Riley Craven
Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.08 03:43:00 -
[159]
The ONLY problem I see with this new system realized to its full potention is in the scout group. The real issue is that if you are a scout group it is HIGHLY unlikely you will all be in the system and therefore none of you will get gang bonuses, which is just ***. Scouting is group effort, yet scouts mostly work solo. Sadly this post will get lost at the end of this very long thread and never get seen by devs... such is the way of life :(
PS. By group I mean squad.
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SengH
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.08 04:49:00 -
[160]
seamless map + fleet gang mode currently causes the display to get permanently stuck in system map mode. Bug report being filed in a moment. ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
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hantwo
S.A.S
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:07:00 -
[161]
I don't think i've been in a big gang where someone hasn't become gang bugged somewhere along the line, thats in the current "simple" gang format, i forsee many many many problems in this new hyper complicated gang format.
Random fleet command rages are gonna be all the rage
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Tek'a Rain
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 08:31:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Tek''a Rain on 08/11/2006 08:32:49 I dont want to be a freaking Commander Ive been training for an Eos.. Because Its A Great Logistics Platform! heck, thats a required skill! Logistics! Im not a pwnmobile or sniper or strategic mastermind, im just the girl who tries to makes everyones life a bit better by being around. giving boosts, remote reps/repper drones, improving their systems.
new system? lesse.. I could be a commander.. but Im not a commander. so it would simply be a huge artificial limit that ruins My gameplay. any system that had me in a command position would be a workaround to help a REAL commander, who knows tactics and planning, get around the FOOLISH limitations that this poorly designed, first-person-shooter inspired, kludgy, screen-hogging and system bogging Nightmare will bring. and it looks to get shoved down our pipes hard, rough and ungreased.
+5 points for effort, Devs. -20 for effect
can I have those Leadership SP back now?
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Eewec Ourbyni
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.08 09:50:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Saerid Edited by: Saerid on 04/11/2006 16:40:45 Edited by: Saerid on 04/11/2006 16:29:43
Originally by: Oveur
No, the limit will not be increased. If you have a group of 50 people and none of them are able to create the basic squads (and if they have leadership to any extent today, they can), I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, noob rush?
Performance. Gangs deliver the minimum feature set required , ie. you can gang warp and got that one channel. For the most part the coordination side of things happens on voice comms anyway. All the fancy gang skills won't do you any good if you're waiting for the system to load for 5 minutes while it shuffles bonuses around or you're relogging after the n+1:th node drop of the day. Not to mention it seems you're planning to remove exactly the parts that caused the performance hit from the gangs. Namely the damage updates and gang skills. Not a bad deal, eh?
This would be considering we've had node drops with 40 vs 40 and anything truly decisive nowadays is at least 100 vs 100. That said, reducing the load from BM handoffs and the constant stream of buddy list spammage while logging in after a node drop does look good. Wait and see I figure.
To reiterate, the three things needed for fleet battles nowadays would be 1) Server performance 2) Server performance 3) Server performance. All the other stuff is just arranging the deck chairs on the titanic if you can't deliver the one thing that enables the rest, and that's enough server stability and performance to make trying it out worthwile. Keeping in mind all the gang/formation skills and such seem to be aimed at larger scale pvp activity. If you want to mine you can use a gang. Or maybe split the barges into their own squad for that sweet sweet mining foreman skill. It doesn't take a multitiered structure though.
What the new gang limitations and the split into squadrons are addressing is the performance hit on your gang, where your gang is what's crashing the node. It's not only the damage indicators, it's also the multitude of possible gang bonuses that can now possibly come from any gang member on any stat, which may or may not be active and when active/inactive, has to be propagated to all the members of your gang, which are then calculated into anything affecting those gang members, like, getting shot at.
So... basically, we're moving away from team game play and towards a loose collection of players who happen to share the same leader?
This is a sig...
-- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio --
... good, ain't it! |
James Don
Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:06:00 -
[164]
I may have the wrong end of the stick here but as an FC with Leadership 4 atm I'm obviously not too happy at the prospect of 3 months skill training to get wing commander lvl5 to be able to make an effective fleet.
If it is indeed the case that this will become a required level of skill for all FC's then can someone at CCP please look at the skill multiplyer on the skill as I feel this is just too harsh a penalty for a position that is often enough of a task.
James
-------------------------------------------- notify : Your cloaking systems are unable to activate due to your ship being within 2000 meters of the nearby Snowballs. |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:45:00 -
[165]
Originally by: James Don I may have the wrong end of the stick here but as an FC with Leadership 4 atm I'm obviously not too happy at the prospect of 3 months skill training to get wing commander lvl5 to be able to make an effective fleet.
It will take you 3 months to train Leadership V + Wing Commander V?
What the hell is your charisma, 5?
With any sort of non-twinked stats, Leadership V is about 4,5 - 5 days... are you really saying that it will take you 85 days to train a rank8 skill to V? Wow. Sucks to be you.
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James Don
Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:53:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: James Don I may have the wrong end of the stick here but as an FC with Leadership 4 atm I'm obviously not too happy at the prospect of 3 months skill training to get wing commander lvl5 to be able to make an effective fleet.
It will take you 3 months to train Leadership V + Wing Commander V?
What the hell is your charisma, 5?
With any sort of non-twinked stats, Leadership V is about 4,5 - 5 days... are you really saying that it will take you 85 days to train a rank8 skill to V? Wow. Sucks to be you.
Thanks for the helpful advice :p
I just got into kally and saw that Squad command has been removed and Wing command is still there, adding Fleet command with a multiplyer of 5
My charisma is cursed with being high, if you took a second to see what I was saying Leadership lvl5 = 5 days, Squadron command 5 = 33 days Wing command 5 = 44 days that adds up to alot of training.
Squad command has been dropped so an FC can get to lvl 1 with just the wing command training so its not as bad as I first feared -------------------------------------------- notify : Your cloaking systems are unable to activate due to your ship being within 2000 meters of the nearby Snowballs. |
dfsgaergaerg
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:01:00 -
[167]
i think this new system totally *****.
1: only commander giving boosts. First of all that means that the commander if you wanna profit from any gang modules means has to be in a command ship > eos/claymore (you get the idea). While atm fleet commanders best sit in a cloaky to be able to see everythnig clearly without having to worry about hp and targeting. Means that commanders have to do twice as much. While they the ammount they are doing atm is already an art on it's own.
2: commanders will have to train skillz. This while they don't want to train skillz for something that is not gonna work anyway.
3: people who have trained and put all their effort into flying a cs with gang modules and stuff are just pwn'ed. Because most of them will prolly not be fleet commander or don't have to experience to be so. This means they have trained for nothing.
4: The sentences(dunno what to call them else) like i need armor, enemy spotted. Waste of time. You are already getting loads of info and this means even more info. + good pvp corpo's have voice communication as a "must have" in most application rules. Meaning that this system will force good pvp corpo's to go from 100% voice communication to a semi 50-50 voice/read communcation styl. That is precisely what we don't want.
5: If somebody comes on-line and action is going on. Or if somebody comes in system he wants to be invitid to the gang asap. That is perfectly possible atm, but will become a problem in the new system. Which wing, which squadron, who invites me, who should invite me, etc etc.
In short. The gang system we have now works perfectly fine. Except for a few minor bugs and update problems. Optimising should be the word (like the 1 line for hull armor shield). The new gang system is a example of what we see in daily life with politics. It's creating somekind of bureaucratic way of leading and forming a gang. > it gives you alot of option and can provide very detailed info in theory > but because of all that stuff you get trown at you. You can't see what you wanna see anymore.
waste of time. Gang system like it works now works fine. Optimize it don't overhaul it. Will kill gangs and general.
Dutchfighter
PS i have led gangs from 5-110 peepz so i think i know what i am talking about. Open for cunstructive critism.
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dutchfighter
Chickens with an Attitude
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:02:00 -
[168]
stupid alts
above post is mine
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:47:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 08/11/2006 11:58:31
Originally by: James Don
Thanks for the helpful advice :p
I just got into kali and saw that Squad command has been removed and Wing command is still there, adding Fleet command with a multiplyer of 12
My charisma is cursed with being high, if you took a second to see what I was saying Leadership lvl5 = 5 days, Squadron command 5 = 33 days Wing command 5 = 44 days that adds up to alot of training.
Squad command has been dropped so an FC can get to lvl 1 with just the wing command training so its not as bad as I first feared
Ok, sorry I was a bit snarky there, there's just quite a bit of hyperbole about the training reqs flying about these days.
As far as I understand it:
- Leadership now gives you +2 squad members per level (rank 1) - Wing Commander gives you +1 squad per level (rank 8) - Fleet Commander gives you +1 wing per level (rank 12)
The skill Squadron Command has been renamed to Warfare Link Specialist or some such, it works as before (boosts gang mods and is a req for command ships). The naming is confusing, Leadership should really be called Squadron Command, but TomB said that they can't currently rename it due to resource problems (the name "Leadership" is used in lots of places, including voice recordings). Oh well.
So Leadership V gives you max 10 people (and is trivial to train for).
Wing Commander V gives you max 5 x 10 + 1 = 51 people (and is a ***** to train to V, but not too bad to lvl4 which gives you 41 max)
Fleet Command V gives you max 5 x 51 + 1 = 256 people (and is a horror to train fully). Of course, once you have Wing Commander V the first 3 levels of Fleet Command are still quick, which gives you 154 people in your fleet. After that it gets slower.
Or maybe I've misunderstood something.
Maybe the rank of Wing Commander should be toned down a bit, since it's the biggest hurdle here. Not all that many need to lead 200+ people fleets, but lots of people would need more than 41 people and requiring a rank 8 to level V is a bit steep, admittedly.
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Roxanna Kell
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:59:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Roxanna Kell New gang system is badly done. the end.
Well, that was well reasoned and informative.
Ok then, I'm sure the CCP boys will get right on it and scrap the current system and recode everything until it meets your approval. Have a chair while you wait.
The way they done it, 3 different lines of command? with a commander on each? it will take hours to orgenise a gang.
Quote: "Don't touch the RED butt |
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:06:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 08/11/2006 12:07:59
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
The way they done it, 3 different lines of command? with a commander on each? it will take hours to orgenise a gang.
Hard to say yet, of course, but I don't think so.
You form a gang just like now. Then you convert it to a fleet. Then you decide who is FC, and who are the sub-commanders. It's pretty close to what happens now, except that the game now dictates some structure. Still, I don't see it as being all that different from the current way gangs and fleets form -- you need organization anyway.
There's still an FC. There is no real need to really use squad commanders or wing commanders as "commanders", unless you want to -- you can just assign them based on who has the best skills, and all follow the FC like before.
Sure, I expect some additional overhead, especially in the beginning before people figure out how everything works. I also expect gangs/fleets to run more efficiently after that, with all the new toys and structure in place.
Otoh, I could be tragically wrong. We'll see.
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James Don
Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.08 12:21:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 08/11/2006 11:58:31 Ok, sorry I was a bit snarky there, there's just quite a bit of hyperbole about the training reqs flying about these days.
All is forgiven thanks for the top notch info I am a little happier now 150 - 200 would be ok for the fleets I lead so at least I dont have to do fleet command lvl5!
-------------------------------------------- notify : Your cloaking systems are unable to activate due to your ship being within 2000 meters of the nearby Snowballs. |
Heretic Angel
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:27:00 -
[173]
Originally by: dfsgaergaerg i think this new system totally *****.
1: only commander giving boosts. First of all that means that the commander if you wanna profit from any gang modules means has to be in a command ship > eos/claymore (you get the idea). While atm fleet commanders best sit in a cloaky to be able to see everythnig clearly without having to worry about hp and targeting. Means that commanders have to do twice as much. While they the ammount they are doing atm is already an art on it's own.
2: commanders will have to train skillz. This while they don't want to train skillz for something that is not gonna work anyway.
3: people who have trained and put all their effort into flying a cs with gang modules and stuff are just pwn'ed. Because most of them will prolly not be fleet commander or don't have to experience to be so. This means they have trained for nothing.
4: The sentences(dunno what to call them else) like i need armor, enemy spotted. Waste of time. You are already getting loads of info and this means even more info. + good pvp corpo's have voice communication as a "must have" in most application rules. Meaning that this system will force good pvp corpo's to go from 100% voice communication to a semi 50-50 voice/read communcation styl. That is precisely what we don't want.
5: If somebody comes on-line and action is going on. Or if somebody comes in system he wants to be invitid to the gang asap. That is perfectly possible atm, but will become a problem in the new system. Which wing, which squadron, who invites me, who should invite me, etc etc.
In short. The gang system we have now works perfectly fine. Except for a few minor bugs and update problems. Optimising should be the word (like the 1 line for hull armor shield). The new gang system is a example of what we see in daily life with politics. It's creating somekind of bureaucratic way of leading and forming a gang. > it gives you alot of option and can provide very detailed info in theory > but because of all that stuff you get trown at you. You can't see what you wanna see anymore.
waste of time. Gang system like it works now works fine. Optimize it don't overhaul it. Will kill gangs and general.
Dutchfighter
PS i have led gangs from 5-110 peepz so i think i know what i am talking about. Open for cunstructive critism.
totaly agree |
Gilbert Drillerson
DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:35:00 -
[174]
I hate the new system for gangs, the main reason is that I dont see any good in it at all, It seems to me that CCP inadvertantly killed the baby to avoid it drowning...
What i mean is: it seems the way gang bonuses are implemented are expensive for CPU... so lets make 99% of the people contributing to gang bonuses useless. While it probably solves the problem, it also ****es off a lot of players that have spent months training leadership skills for carriers and command ships.
To add insult to injury the training invested in Squadron command (obviousely a skill named for use with gangs) are made 100% irrelevant and now only applies to warfare links.. that you wont get ANY benefit from unless you invest MONTHS in the two new skills for gang leaders.
Once you have done that (spent 2 months training a rank 8 to 5 and a rank 12 to 4-5), you are WORSE off than before Kali:
* Smaller gangs (I have lead gangs bigger than 256 people) * Only 3 gang ppl's bonuses will apply to anyone (maximum) where as now it is MUCH higher * The gang UI that may be an advantage is useless as long as its attached to the overview, it is already a problem to have enough space for the targets... just imagine having another vital display under targets/drones...
Im sorry CCP, im usually a fan boi, but this is one for the Bin, you will have to do better
Dont get mad - Get even |
Horsefly
Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.11.08 15:13:00 -
[175]
ItÆs not a big secret out there to the people I run around with that I think the new gang setup is quite nice a good for a change to keep things from getting stale.
I have had fears of myself with very high leadership skills in game but donÆt like to lead fleets that I would have to step up and perform like some others in my alliance. I have given some thought to this and I donÆt think itÆs going to be a big problem right now.
Imagine this scenario.
Old Way:
FC warps you from gate to gate and tells you over teamspeak or chat channel who to target you target and go PEW PEW PEW. So on and so forth. Ideally the FC is the one warping you around cause he knows where to go.
New Way:
Dedicated Leadership Specialist (IE me in this case.) May or may not be the best FC. Has to take Fleet command role in game. The true FC is on TS or in chat channel. Preferable a wing or at least a squadron commander. The real FC tells the guy with the gang skills that were going to XYZ solar system. That guy (the one with the skills) warps the gang or "fleet" around like the FC says to. FC tells however TS or chat channel primary and secondary. So on and so forth. So basically the guy/gal with the skills needed for the Fleet command position now takes care of the target identification and gang movement for the FC.
Not sure if this helps but maybe if you look at it this way you may feel a bit better about the whole thing. If you train up the skills enough to be the fleet commander position honestly you are the type of person that will accept the responsibilities to help out your fleet commander.
Of course all the FC can continue to complain rather then try to find a solution and the advantages this system will provide for you. Hopefully this helps the Blob warfare I know everyone really hates.
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Roxanna Kell
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.11.08 17:34:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 08/11/2006 12:07:59
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
The way they done it, 3 different lines of command? with a commander on each? it will take hours to orgenise a gang.
Hard to say yet, of course, but I don't think so.
You form a gang just like now. Then you convert it to a fleet. Then you decide who is FC, and who are the sub-commanders. It's pretty close to what happens now, except that the game now dictates some structure. Still, I don't see it as being all that different from the current way gangs and fleets form -- you need organization anyway.
There's still an FC. There is no real need to really use squad commanders or wing commanders as "commanders", unless you want to -- you can just assign them based on who has the best skills, and all follow the FC like before.
Sure, I expect some additional overhead, especially in the beginning before people figure out how everything works. I also expect gangs/fleets to run more efficiently after that, with all the new toys and structure in place.
Otoh, I could be tragically wrong. We'll see.
is it necessary to introduce it? can't remember people complaining about the gang system
Quote: "Don't touch the RED butt |
Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.08 19:58:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell is it necessary to introduce it? can't remember people complaining about the gang system
You know the fleet lag everyone's been *****ing about for about a year? That's apparently almost entirely down to the gang system. So yes, people have been complaining about it, even if they didn't realise.
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Taaketa Frist
The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.09 00:52:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Horsefly Dedicated Leadership Specialist (IE me in this case.) May or may not be the best FC. Has to take Fleet command role in game. The true FC is on TS or in chat channel. Preferable a wing or at least a squadron commander. The real FC tells the guy with the gang skills that were going to XYZ solar system. That guy (the one with the skills) warps the gang or "fleet" around like the FC says to. FC tells however TS or chat channel primary and secondary. So on and so forth. So basically the guy/gal with the skills needed for the Fleet command position now takes care of the target identification and gang movement for the FC.
This is how it is currently with most 0.0 alliances.
Also should be noted there is sometimes those that call secondary targets as well (Primaries are usually kepted for guns with instant damage (Projectiles, Hybrid) when secondary is usually kepted for delayed damage (missiles, drones) this means when secondary cycle to primary and a new secondary is called. They are already softened up.
This will benefit the system now since Squardon/wing leaders can then have insta damage/delaid damage/intel wings with all the various commanders able to refine and process information back to the FC through in game techniques. --------------
Dang nabit |
CHAOS100
Momentum.
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Posted - 2006.11.09 05:41:00 -
[179]
Finally I have something to use my highest attribute for...
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Lienzo
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Posted - 2006.11.09 07:41:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Lienzo on 09/11/2006 07:44:10 Honestly, all I wanted for gangs was just:
-The ability to give other people invite ability.
-Appointable Gang warp ability.
-To limit access to gang health reports to economize on lag. Then, instead of updating N accounts with data on N gang members, 1 leader or logistics pilot will recieve data from N accounts. Much more efficient tbh.
-Gang member locktime adjustment that allows logistics ships to function better when warping with the gang.
Also, squads where each member picked a leadership specialty now have 4/5 members with useless sp. This is not a good thing.
I implore you to forget this concept of vertical hierarchy and go for something with more horizontal or linear specialization.
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Otellus
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.09 09:39:00 -
[181]
The system sucks and brings needless complications to gang warfare, which can be hectic enough as it is.
If the problem truely is lag, there has to be a better way of reducing the amount of information short of implementing this system.
Possibility would be this: Make the system more flexible. Gang starts with 1 FC. As he invites people into his gang, he should be able to give them additional tasks.
Tasks such as: - Tactical officer: able to gangwarp people (with a max of 1 per gang perhaps if that is needed) - Force officer: able to invite people to the gang (having more than 1 person able to do invites is a huge advantage) - Staff officer: able to give gangbonuses to the gang. That way you add a little extra work determining who will be giving bonuses to the gang, but it would still achieve the basic objective of reducing lag if that is indeed a problem. - Maybe others..
Having a regimented system with 10 person squads, 50 person wings is silly. Give us flexibility. And don't make it dependent on ingame skills who is FC.
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:26:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 09/11/2006 11:38:53
Originally by: Oveur
.....Answers to questions about gangs...
Omg this sounds AWESOME. TYVM CCP - U guys rock
At last, those of us who created balanced chars (instead of ignoring cha) get to laugh at the rest - especially the Achura
I am all for it. It's been far too easy to blob for far too long. Also anyone can take lead of a gang which makes the leadership abilites of your char insignifcant.
People don't like this new system cos they have got used to having it easy and want it to stay that way. But the truth is - It SHOULD be hard to lead a gang of 50 pilots . It SHOULD take WEEKS of training. And you SHOULD need a high cha and wil to be able to do so.
In the same way that players need to train Corp Management skills to run a Corp they should have to train Leadership skills to lead a fleet.
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Fergus Runkle
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:56:00 -
[183]
I like the organisation, I don't mind the skill training. However what I don't like is that several people in my corp that had trained in various gang assist area's have now mutually exclusive skills, we cannot complement each other.
There's a whole bunch of pilots that now have (in their eyes if not CCP's) wasted skillpoints and I can't help thinking that this will also harm the price of the Fleet Command ships as well.
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:32:00 -
[184]
1. The idea about hierachial leadership skills is not that bad. It makes sense and gives more emphasis on charisma.
2. Changing the way gang assist mods etc affect members is a very bad idea. In fact its a big kick in the behind for a lot of people who specialised in that and will render these modules even less used then before. While it makes quite good sense roleplay wise that only the actual leaders give thoses bonuses it is making them worthless for most people to have from a gameplay point of view.
Plus if you lack leaders with high enough skills you are forced to divide your force into several squads anyway thus limiting the people who can benefit from leadership skills anyway. On top of that having to put your leader types in command ships makes sense rp wise, sure, but from a gameplay side its a bad idea again and be serious: Gameplay and fun is more important then roleplay in these matters for most, isnt it?
A triple nerf to leadership skills is neither needed nor a good addition to the game.
Proposal to keep the idea that positions in fleets should matter with regard to leadership without nerfing the leadership skills usefulness:
Why not make it the other way around?
Have leadership skills work like before affecting all squad/wing/fleet members and allow them to come from all members regardless if they are squad etc leaders or not.
BUT give people with leadership stuff that happen to be in a actual squad etc command position a BONUS to the effect, probable a fixed one or one that is scaled with their skill lvl for their position and the position they fill up.
e.g. a squad commander with lvl 4 leadership skill gets a 8% bonus while a fleet commander with lvl 3 fleet command skill gets say a 24% bonus etc.
Note: The bonus only applies when the pilot is in the actual command positon tho position , so e.g. a guy with fleet command skill that only leads a wing wont get the full bonus but only the one for his actual position.
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Horsefly
Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:56:00 -
[185]
Heres how I'd break up the gang:
FC: Person with the best all around skills for the fleet ideally with all the basic leadership skills done.
WC1: All shield bonouses with the siege implant Everyone in this wing should be shield based WC2: All Armour bonouses with the Armour implant Everyone in this wing should be armour based
Then if you have the amount of people it should have a squad of information warfare or a wing of information warefare so your ecm is better And wait for it a skirmish wing for the fast people and tacklers.
I know it sounds kinda grand and all but I bet this is the more successfull fleet then the old way and some variation of this will be what the better alliances have.
I also remind you that the FRIGGIN REAL FC DOESNT HAVE TO BE THE INGAME FC.
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ookke
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Posted - 2006.11.09 18:36:00 -
[186]
Has someone actually been able to get gang links & bonuses working?
I tested with 1 char in a command ship running 3 various gang links, leadership 5 and wing commander lvl 1. I created a gang with ookke, transformed it into a fleet, made the command ship character squad commander... and nothing happened. No resist boosts, no inreased hp:s, nothing. Am I doing something wrong?
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SengH
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.09 20:39:00 -
[187]
it worked the patch before.. i was unable to get it to work with the new build though. ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus Awu5 finished..... |
Satal Sonshi
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.11.10 00:27:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
As far as I understand it:
- Leadership now gives you +2 squad members per level (rank 1) - Wing Commander gives you +1 squad per level (rank 8) - Fleet Commander gives you +1 wing per level (rank 12)
Wait... So, if I have Wing Commander II, I can command (and give bonuses to) two squads?
?
We now know that anyone can form a FLEET, of 'max' size, but that fleet can only have commanders at certain levels if the skills are met. Does Wing Commander let me command multiple wings? Or does it just mean that I can command my single wing with skill to I, and Wing Commander II-V is merely wait time to get Fleet Commander I?
-= Satal =-
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Countessa D'Marko
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Posted - 2006.11.10 07:33:00 -
[189]
ok - looks like i've been screwed over here.
I fly a command ship, my alt flies a command ship, two of my corpmates fly command ships. So now CCP are telling me that only one of us (maybe 2) can have links active and doing what I bought them to do ?
Also, when I fly missions, I like to have my alt in a lootscoop, providing his base bonuses to me through a gang. Now this doesnt happen unless I make him the gang leader, accept the mission, warp to the mission, then have him warp to me.
That was a waste of a LOT of training time ... looks like I WILL have to train up weapon skills on that char after all :(
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grizouh
Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.10 09:40:00 -
[190]
Originally by: ookke Has someone actually been able to get gang links & bonuses working?
nope, didn¦t work for me yesterday neither. after finally _finding_ the skill in f-d, thanks for seeding everywhere (fleet is not seeded at all btw), and training it to lvl1 we rebuilt the gang, converted it into fleet and tried every constellation possible but no boni. maybe a relog would had helped but i did not want to wait for the queue again at midnight our time.
honestly it does not really bother me as i am loosing the interest in eve atm due to this changes and all the lag we had till now...
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Aleis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:01:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Aleis on 10/11/2006 15:05:07 I just made a post int eh ships modules section before i saw this one oops but i'll reapost my main points,
Not happy.
Simple the structure thing is cool but it has made gang bonuses and modules Required to be in large gangs and in commanding positions.
possible answer either allow gang of 2+ to be turned into fleets and add another special role of "Support" near the commanders tier where the bonuses of that support guy(s) are transferable
You have made leadership position too specialized in this
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Marangela
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Posted - 2006.11.10 17:47:00 -
[192]
What about the little guy who has only played a couple of months and trained on a few miscellaneous leadership skills to help a small gang of 2 or 3 people? Are her training skills now wasted?
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.10 18:01:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Marangela What about the little guy who has only played a couple of months and trained on a few miscellaneous leadership skills to help a small gang of 2 or 3 people? Are her training skills now wasted?
No. That little guy just has to be designated as squadron commander for the gang, and things will work just like before. Or if you have another person whose gang bonuses you also want to include, then one of you has to train Leadership V (rank 1, ultrafast) and Wing Commander lvl 1.
After that you can have:
Person A as wing commander, giving bonuses to all. Person B as squad commander, giving bonuses to all. Person C as squad member, just getting bonuses and mining veldspar
You cannot easily have all 3 donate their bonuses to each other (unless someone trains Fleet Command I, no longer trivial). But that's a fairly minor issue.
In most cases, this will change very little or nothing in small gangs. You just "manually" have to designate the people with the best gang skills as "squad commanders" and "wing commanders", instead of the game automatically using the highest bonuses. No big deal.
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Countessa D'Marko
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Posted - 2006.11.10 18:53:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
No. That little guy just has to be designated as squadron commander for the gang, and things will work just like before. Or if you have another person whose gang bonuses you also want to include, then one of you has to train Leadership V (rank 1, ultrafast) and Wing Commander lvl 1.
After that you can have:
Person A as wing commander, giving bonuses to all. Person B as squad commander, giving bonuses to all. Person C as squad member, just getting bonuses and mining veldspar
You cannot easily have all 3 donate their bonuses to each other (unless someone trains Fleet Command I, no longer trivial). But that's a fairly minor issue.
Can this be confirmed - because the way I read things bonuses only apply to self and down the tree.
eg1. I fly missions in a Nighthawk, which could conceivably fit a gang mod, and my alt in a claymore, with 3 or 4 mods which are activated as circumstances dictate. My understanding is that my Alt would be my commander so that his links would provide bonuses to both of us, and make my fitting a mod pointless, as at best it would only apply to me.
eg2. my corpmates and I go for a spin in low sec, NPC ratting and the odd PvP. We all take the new shiny CBC's we fly ... but who becomes the commander, which of us wants to take the time we've spent skilling our leadership skills and throw them away ...
It's Great be ME isn't it
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Maestro Ulv
Phaze-9
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:28:00 -
[195]
Regardless of the points brought up by Countessa and others here, im concerned about the size of the gang windows now.
Image of gang from another forum
Will we get some sort of ability to drag this out? I know there are probably shortcuts for these but i for one will never remember em (old age, whatever). As it stands unless you have a **** large screen and a PC to run at maxed out screen res your gonna get trouble seeing, Gang members, Gang commands and overview. I also have Drones on there to content with.
Sure you can click em up and down but in the heat of battle this might not be the best option.
So, not a whine, but will we be able to move stuff around on screen?
I'm not bored, I'm merely in the Queue. |
Dwight Hammerhead
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.13 06:28:00 -
[196]
Otellus - word man! Thats the solution.
/sit and /dance for gang from the FC? pls! _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig |
Darth Bob
Dark Excession
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Posted - 2006.11.13 17:50:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
Originally by: Oveur
3: What level of command do gang mod and skill bonuses propagate at and across what distance
In a fleet, it's the commanders in the hierarchy that give bonuses, Fleet commander give all fleet, squad leader only his squad etc. This is both an huge optimization and a preparation for more advanced gang functionality down the road, where you can have specialized squads (Formation-ish gameplay)
First 10x for the response. But what happens if u have say 4 ppl with dedicated command ships, using mixed gang mods, and u want your fleet to get all of them (like it is now). Now they can either be all commanders (unlikely) or its just an unnecesarry gang mod nerf? Or is it made so that if u have those ppl in the same squad/whathever with the Fleet commander (the one with fleet command, formig the blob) their bonuses are distributed to all down the chain? Or is it I misunderstood smth?
A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. It's also not the way we want to evolve gangs, the squads will get more specific bonuses if they have the correct group of roles, which directly penalize other types of roles in the squad (formation kind of thing).
If you have good commanders, you should benefit from it, if you have a load of mediocre commanders, you shouldn't benefit as much from it, if you don't have any commanders, you shouldn't benefit at all. That's just the same as traditional warfare. (Note, the level of commanders here is of course referring to their skill level, not their actual competency).
There are stress tests scheduled for the new gangs to compare with the stress tests of the old gangs on Singularity.
so, if I get this right (and I didn't bother reading the other 5 pages cause atm I'm a bit ****ed):
We have a small pvp corp with a regular gang commander who uses his 2nd account as a cov ops. We each have our roles and I have a good 5mil sp invested in leadership (3+months). Now with this new system, A) the gang commander has to train up his leadership skills, and I guess you have a point here. And B) I now have 5mil SP in leadership that are completely and in every way useless.
Is this true? and if so, can I get a refund?
end of whine
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Tani Yih
Minmatar NED-Clan R i s e
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Posted - 2006.11.14 13:48:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Darth Bob
We have a small pvp corp with a regular gang commander who uses his 2nd account as a cov ops. We each have our roles and I have a good 5mil sp invested in leadership (3+months). Now with this new system, A) the gang commander has to train up his leadership skills, and I guess you have a point here. And B) I now have 5mil SP in leadership that are completely and in every way useless.
Is this true? and if so, can I get a refund?
end of whine
You enjoyed eve perfectly fine up to now.. and continue to do so since there's no Kali yet. If you don't like what is coming then quit now .. no refund needed because nothing changed.
And please stop whining.
Anyway .. is there a broadcast message coming for ammo resupply? Though on second thought that might be hard given the many types of ammo available.
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Darth Bob
Dark Excession
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Posted - 2006.11.14 16:28:00 -
[199]
let me quote something from the dev blog about gangs:
"The reason for this change is to make more use of gang command/bonus based characters and to make specialized characters that focus on gangs a more common choice for players."
making it a more common choice by giving it a HUGE nerf? and absolutely useless for all but a few players in eve?
CCP please think about this some more, there's no need to nerf gang boosting skills this much
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Hugh Garse
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Posted - 2006.11.14 17:59:00 -
[200]
Has anyone even considered what this means to mining gangs? I have spent months training up an uber mining gang leader, now I will have to train even more just so his skills actually work. While I am on a rant, fix the **** mining foreman mondlink to give the EXTRA 15% as stated and Michi's so it doesnt nerf the gang bonus pls ;) |
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Siobhan Ni
Gallente Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2006.11.14 19:18:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Horsefly Heres how I'd break up the gang:
FC: Person with the best all around skills for the fleet ideally with all the basic leadership skills done.
WC1: All shield bonouses with the siege implant Everyone in this wing should be shield based WC2: All Armour bonouses with the Armour implant Everyone in this wing should be armour based
Then if you have the amount of people it should have a squad of information warfare or a wing of information warefare so your ecm is better And wait for it a skirmish wing for the fast people and tacklers.
I know it sounds kinda grand and all but I bet this is the more successfull fleet then the old way and some variation of this will be what the better alliances have.
I also remind you that the FRIGGIN REAL FC DOESNT HAVE TO BE THE INGAME FC.
Primary target Horsefly
Seriuosly though, all command ships are gonna be primary targets if the gang bonus is only effective within a grid. Don't like that bit at all.
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Necronomicon
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.14 19:28:00 -
[202]
CCP really have over complicated the whole thing. Squad/Wing etc should only cap maximum amount of players in gang. I fully understand the need for simplifying the server calculations in combat for gang members, but doing this at the expense of the skills that people have spent months training up for is just not on.
Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
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Acerus Malum
Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.14 22:43:00 -
[203]
A question for those who can test it. Let's say you have a leader with the capability of leading a wing of however many squadrons. What happens if your wannabe fleet doesn't have enough secondary leaders capable of heading up the individual squadrons? Can you still get your wing of 11-51 pilots without having enough "underlings" in power, or what?
That leads to another question. Let's say we're already in a fleet-type gang consisting of multiple squadrons in a single wing. If one of the squadron commanders is killed, what happens to the gang as a whole? The wing commander is still leading his surviving squad commanders, who are still leading their pilots; but suddenly we have up to 10 leaderless pilots. Can they be lead by anyone at all (wing commander or fleet commander if there is one), or are they completely destitute and cut off from the fleet simply because a link in the chain of command is missing? I could also pose this question on the wing-commander level: what if a WC is killed, do up to 50 squad members suddently join into one giant leaderless/gang-bonusless mass? Also, can an equally skilled pilot claim a leadership position should something like this happen?
And that leads to the final question. In the above case where there's a catastrophic leadership gap, what happens to the gang's subchannels? I certainly hope that a half dozen text and voice channels don't suddenly merge into one...
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arjun
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.11.15 11:31:00 -
[204]
the new fleet system is overly complicated imo but i guess one can adapt.
select new squad leader in the middle of a fleetfight when gangmembers get wrecked left and right? suddenly i have 30 km less targeting range because the fc dropped?
fleetcomanders burn out easily especially on long campaigns. they are most times happy if somebody else takes over for a while. that will be much more difficult now because only the guys with the best skills are the natural choice for fC/WC/SC. that means comandship 5 and a mindlink. so i dont see the rooky fleetcomanders emerging so easy now. very bad overall.
linking the out of game ability to leed a fleet with the ingame skills is a bad and not thought out choice.
2 possible solutions come to mind:
a) let the respective SC select the person which gives out the gang boni. if he doesnt, then he is the one himself. that would bring specialised supporters to the specialised squads. like scirmish warfare guy in the tackler squad or the information warfare guy in the ew squad.
b)let the FC select 1 char in the fleet for each race so the game hasnt to check so many chars. that can be roles the fc can fill with the chars he chooses like slots. let the whoile gang profit from the boni of those chars.
in both cases give the selected gang support gu the ability to choose his own replacement beforehand for the case he drops from the gang or looses ship.
ill just mention m example. i have a maxed ew char. m other char is a trader for which i looked for other useful skills for the corp/alliance. so i let him max out information warfare with mindlink. that char would never be any use in the frontline (gunnery + drones together 30k skillpoints) he was alwas intended to sit at a pos to give out the boni from afar while the ew guy fights in the main battleship group. forcing the fc to be in a comandship in the middle of his battleships is disturbing. the comandships will die so often. did i mention lag? what will happen if the fc crashhes or his game freezes as happens so often today? who will take over in this chaotic situation?
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Hugh Garse
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Posted - 2006.11.15 15:58:00 -
[205]
Ok, just did a quick test.
Char 1 - Hulk Pilot, yield 1439 per cycle Char 2 - Mining Foreman 4, Leadership 5, Wind Command 1.
Formed gang - no 8% yield, upgraded to Fleet - No 8% yield, same grid, no extra yield.
Am I doing something wrong?
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Wicaeed
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:32:00 -
[206]
Gang Boosting Bonuses
Gang bonuses can now only be received from commanders in a gang that has been converted to a fleet, which is quite a change to current gang bonus mechanics. The reason for this change is to make more use of gang command/bonus based characters and to make specialized characters that focus on gangs a more common choice for players.
Commanders can only give gang bonuses and receive their own bonuses but can not receive bonuses from other commanders or normal members. A normal Squad Member how ever can receive bonuses from three possible parties: his Squad Commander, his Wing Commander or the daddy Fleet Commander himself.
What? I'm sorry but this is stupid sounding, especially the part about CCP wanting gang bonus speced characters to be played more. By dividng the plyayers like they are proposing, it will only further limit the usefullness of Command Ship characters: They will only be useful leading gangs.
A solution to this is simple: Make 4 ship slots per fleet for Command Ships. A spot for Information Warfare, Siege Warfare, Armored Warfare and Skirmish Warfare ships. Any command ships placed in these spots will give their bonuses to the entire fleet.
I may be wrong, but the way TomB explains the new usefullness of Fleet COmmand characters seems to me that you can only have one per fleet providing bonuses.
That dosn't seem too useful to me..
I also don't understand the reasoning behind removing gang bonuses all together from gangs. It makes no sense at all.
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Darth Bob
Dark Excession
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Posted - 2006.11.15 21:09:00 -
[207]
Originally by: arjun
a) let the respective SC select the person which gives out the gang boni. if he doesnt, then he is the one himself. that would bring specialised supporters to the specialised squads. like scirmish warfare guy in the tackler squad or the information warfare guy in the ew squad.
well CCP, seems like we have a winner here, let the highest ranking officer choose up to 4 'specialists', his own skills will be used for every role not assigned to a specialist.
This will make leadership characters a more popular choice, not your proposed nerf
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Lebouse
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Posted - 2006.11.15 21:30:00 -
[208]
Quote: Gang bonuses can now only be received from commanders in a gang that has been converted to a fleet, which is quite a change to current gang bonus mechanics. The reason for this change is to make more use of gang command/bonus based characters and to make specialized characters that focus on gangs a more common choice for players.
Commanders can only give gang bonuses and receive their own bonuses but can not receive bonuses from other commanders or normal members. A normal Squad Member how ever can receive bonuses from three possible parties: his Squad Commander, his Wing Commander or the daddy Fleet Commander himself.
So no gang bonuses are received unless a gang reaches "fleet" size?
So this means that small gangs (maybe only squadron size) of hunters, pvpers and miners cannot get benefit of gang bonuses? If true, not very well thought out.
Only the "commanders" pass along bonuses? So better make sure the guy with the best skills for bonuses is leading the gang. Again, not well thought out.
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Taketa De
Gallente Seneca Federation Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.16 02:57:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Lebouse So no gang bonuses are received unless a gang reaches "fleet" size?
So this means that small gangs (maybe only squadron size) of hunters, pvpers and miners cannot get benefit of gang bonuses? If true, not very well thought out.
Only the "commanders" pass along bonuses? So better make sure the guy with the best skills for bonuses is leading the gang. Again, not well thought out.
Well it makes sense that the best person with leadership skills is the leader :P. Anyway, "fleet" size seems to be 2 ships, so that shouldn't be a problem. --- The Advanced Drone Control Panel. |
Horsefly
Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.11.16 13:13:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Siobhan Ni
Originally by: Horsefly Heres how I'd break up the gang:
FC: Person with the best all around skills for the fleet ideally with all the basic leadership skills done.
WC1: All shield bonouses with the siege implant Everyone in this wing should be shield based WC2: All Armour bonouses with the Armour implant Everyone in this wing should be armour based
Then if you have the amount of people it should have a squad of information warfare or a wing of information warefare so your ecm is better And wait for it a skirmish wing for the fast people and tacklers.
I know it sounds kinda grand and all but I bet this is the more successfull fleet then the old way and some variation of this will be what the better alliances have.
I also remind you that the FRIGGIN REAL FC DOESNT HAVE TO BE THE INGAME FC.
Primary target Horsefly
Seriuosly though, all command ships are gonna be primary targets if the gang bonus is only effective within a grid. Don't like that bit at all.
As far as I know its not a grid its the solar system like now. But in any case I'm always primary as soon as they figure out I'm there. No biggy. Just means I gotta go to empire once again.
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Sarah Meiskin
The Syndicate Inc Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:00:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Sarah Meiskin on 16/11/2006 20:05:44 Wait >.<
I got lost in the posts.. I read through all pages but so many words and posts confuses me sometimes.
So I have Squadron command 3, Training 4 to be completed Tuesday... But I see Leadership is now "Squadron Head", so does that mean Squadron command will be deleted and all that time I spent training it is gone? What about the 10% Bonus/Level I was getting to Warfarelink modules? I see that there's now "Warfare Link specialization", but what about "Armored warfare Specialist" and "Siege Warfare Specialist", I have both... does that mean they're gone now too?! That's a -LOT- of lost training time!
What about the new skill training times? Anyone have those viewable (Training Multipliers)?
So what happened to current Leadership chars like myself when Kali Rolls out? Will our skills be reset, deleted, changed/edited or what? I got 2m SP in Leadership and that took a lot of effort!
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Acerus Malum
Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:55:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Sarah Meiskin Edited by: Sarah Meiskin on 16/11/2006 20:05:44 Wait >.<
I got lost in the posts.. I read through all pages but so many words and posts confuses me sometimes.
So I have Squadron command 3, Training 4 to be completed Tuesday... But I see Leadership is now "Squadron Head", so does that mean Squadron command will be deleted and all that time I spent training it is gone? What about the 10% Bonus/Level I was getting to Warfarelink modules? I see that there's now "Warfare Link specialization", but what about "Armored warfare Specialist" and "Siege Warfare Specialist", I have both... does that mean they're gone now too?! That's a -LOT- of lost training time!
What about the new skill training times? Anyone have those viewable (Training Multipliers)?
So what happened to current Leadership chars like myself when Kali Rolls out? Will our skills be reset, deleted, changed/edited or what? I got 2m SP in Leadership and that took a lot of effort!
Squadron Command changes names to Warfare Link Specialist to avoid confusion. That's all that changes.
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FiberEagle
United Alliance Nova Republic
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Posted - 2006.11.17 17:46:00 -
[213]
Forgive me if this has been covered allready, but I just didn't have the patience to read thru 8 pages long.
With the new gang system wil it be possible to use let's stay 4 people each skilled in command skills, and they fly each a command ship from a diff race with the apropiate warfare mods on them. Can these 4 ppl be in 1 gang and share all bonuses to each other?
If this is not possible then BOOOooo, but if yes then i luve ya all :)
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Lebouse
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Posted - 2006.11.17 18:29:00 -
[214]
Quote: Well it makes sense that the best person with leadership skills is the leader :P. Anyway, "fleet" size seems to be 2 ships, so that shouldn't be a problem.
It is a problem because to get to Fleet Commander you have to train a rank 6 and I think a rank 9 skill both to level 5. Most people in the game are never going to command "fleets", so having to waste however many days training up those skills is nothing more than a time sink; A total waste of training time.
As for the other part, well I guess every gang is now going to have to take an accounting of who has what skills before a gang is formed, so that way the best bonuses get passed along. Not quite a time sink, but a senseless waste of time none the less.
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Darth Bob
Dark Excession
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Posted - 2006.11.17 19:52:00 -
[215]
Originally by: FiberEagle Forgive me if this has been covered allready, but I just didn't have the patience to read thru 8 pages long.
With the new gang system wil it be possible to use let's stay 4 people each skilled in command skills, and they fly each a command ship from a diff race with the apropiate warfare mods on them. Can these 4 ppl be in 1 gang and share all bonuses to each other?
If this is not possible then BOOOooo, but if yes then i luve ya all :)
nope, not possible, it's ccp's way of encouraging ppl to train leadership skills
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FiberEagle
United Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.18 02:06:00 -
[216]
-ww yeah encourage leadership training by nerfing the crap out of it lol.
so totally CCp...
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Hohenheim OfLight
Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:44:00 -
[217]
Is its just me or do the changes jsut make a hash of it? Way to make things worse. ----------------------------------------------
Gone but not forgotten
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CasioJones
Babylon Mining And Mission BrotherHood Babylon Project
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Posted - 2006.11.18 21:13:00 -
[218]
Gangs - a punishment to small corps ?
People in small alliances/corps will have to have someone dedicated to just learn the gang skills , or hire a gang leader ?
Also how about the mining corps out there. Or how about the people with 2/3 accounts in a noobcorp still ?
Im' not complaining because i have someone in my alliance that will have all the gang skills within a month or 2 of kali release.
Just thinking about the small people out there.
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Skeltek
Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:37:00 -
[219]
please, once and for all, stop spamming the thread with falsified information and plain whining about the change. It is difficult enough for most to read through all theese pages.
To make it absolutely clear: It was never stated that Fleetcommand or Wingcommand are needed to transform a gang into fleetmode. If you do not have a person with Fleetcommand or Wingcommand skill, your gang will merely be limited to a smaller size, but you will still get gangboni.
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Darth Bob
Dark Excession
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Posted - 2006.11.20 00:11:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Skeltek please, once and for all, stop spamming the thread with falsified information and plain whining about the change. It is difficult enough for most to read through all theese pages.
To make it absolutely clear: It was never stated that Fleetcommand or Wingcommand are needed to transform a gang into fleetmode. If you do not have a person with Fleetcommand or Wingcommand skill, your gang will merely be limited to a smaller size, but you will still get gangboni.
yes, let's make it clear, as I see you don't get it yet. you won't get gangboni (plural) from gangmods from other characters than the gangleader (squad commander / wing commander / fleet commander). as was the question, which I awnsered correctly and I think the whole idea is BS as gangmods didn't need this huge nerf
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Spike Spiegle
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.20 14:37:00 -
[221]
Wouldn't mind this so much if the fleet command ships gave the advantage of giving the bonus to the fleet not just the squadron, wing or whatever it is.
This would mean that the fleet command ships still give there advantage and the better combat (Field) ships can be used for just the squadrons to say boost ur tacklers only or whatever is in ur squad but I guess we will have to wait and see what happens. Guess everyone will need to buy a command ship now.... lets watch those prices rise...
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Spike Spiegle
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.20 14:45:00 -
[222]
Originally by: CasioJones Gangs - a punishment to small corps ?
People in small alliances/corps will have to have someone dedicated to just learn the gang skills , or hire a gang leader ?
Also how about the mining corps out there. Or how about the people with 2/3 accounts in a noobcorp still ?
Im' not complaining because i have someone in my alliance that will have all the gang skills within a month or 2 of kali release.
Just thinking about the small people out there.
As they are in a small corp a week or two worth of training should allow you to form gangs of around 40 so i dont see what the problem is as that isn't that much of a time sink and if u dont want to you dont have to just dont use gang mods. Personally I dont know how much these small corps can field but I would asume if more than this at any given time a few will already have the gang skill trained.
ok I'm going to stop spamming this thread. Probably check back in a week on the rest of the spam..
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Wicaeed
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.20 17:27:00 -
[223]
I'm curious as to what is going to be done about mining gang bonuses. I don't know about anyone else, but I've yet to see a mining gang of over 50 people
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Hsa Mahtal
Black Reign Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.20 19:28:00 -
[224]
A comment on gang broadcasts:
I can't seem to find anyway to turn off a broadcast once it is sent. I feel this is necessary so that you can send a call to get armor, shield, you've spotted an enemy, whatever but then cancel the broadcast once this state/request is no longer valid.
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2006.11.21 16:31:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Spike Spiegle Wouldn't mind this so much if the fleet command ships gave the advantage of giving the bonus to the fleet not just the squadron, wing or whatever it is...
Definitely this. It would add more value to wing command immediately. For instance, as wing commander I can designate each person with command skills as a Squad commander. Thereby giving the whole 'wing' skill boosts from each squad commander. That would be cool.
For now we will have to wait on them to fix it so commanders can receive bonuses themselves, then go on to the next step.
Maybe since the bonuses will be applied in such small amounts, they can BOOST the bonuses? ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
Dwight Hammerhead
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.22 08:44:00 -
[226]
Sshhh.. Its not too late to nerf the bonuses themselves.. Cmon CCP, u got enough time _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig |
Simrod
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Posted - 2006.11.22 10:18:00 -
[227]
If some group is abel to create a fleet of mult wings it will mean that the any normal memeber will get 3x the command bonuses squad/wing/fleet .He/she will have armour and shield bonus sig reduction ect. ect.witch will make him/her a whole lot better, esp. if it's a 4 week old char. I think lvl 5 leadership and wingcommand is a fair price to pay for such a hugh bonus.
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Wicaeed
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.22 16:41:00 -
[228]
I think gang bonuses need to be handled differently in large gangs.
There need to be four slots for a character with a ship that has bonuses to gang bonuses (BC/CS). A minmitar slot, a gallente slot, an amarr slot and a caldari slot. It is up to the commander on who to put in these slots, but if you want the best gang bonus they will be filled by a Command Ship pilot.
I mean jesus christ CCP it's not that difficult...
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agram tabris
Gallente Oberon Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.11.23 02:02:00 -
[229]
- from what i've seen on test server in the past two, the new system is far too complicated and unnecessary. why not just dividing a gang into squads OR wings with sq. commander in each squad/wing and one fc on top of all. no need to divide a fleet in wings AND squads.
-the overview is not structured enough. there is not enough space to display the objects in space (pilots, gates..), the fleet overview, the broadcast system and the drone control in one overwiew-row.
thats my two cents about that...
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Befounder
FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.23 08:43:00 -
[230]
any chance of implementing a list for fleet commander/wing commander/squad commander that shows what ships they have under their command?
there is no worse death than the end of hope |
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Lieutenant Obvious
Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.23 08:52:00 -
[231]
Is it just me, or is everyone whining about the one MAJOR change that is supposed to be super beneficial: the old gang system caused buttloads of lag with the calculations as to who (out of everyone in gang) had the best bonii at the time in the same system, recalculating when a character leaves a system or logs, recalculating when anyone joins or leaves the gang...
The bigger the gang under the old system, the exponentially worse it got. They change the way gang bonus calcs work and everyone stops whining about the fleet lag and starts whining that they can't just train leadership skills, join a fleet as a pleb and expect their shiny skills to be transferred to all.
Yes, the new system has some drawbacks, but ****it to hell... it was for a VERY good cause (unless the whole lot of you happen to have never been in a gang and suffered lag in battle).
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Nomme
Mu..
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Posted - 2006.11.23 10:27:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Befounder any chance of implementing a list for fleet commander/wing commander/squad commander that shows what ships they have under their command?
Good point,yesterday when commanding Squad level,I had a difficult time both in finding players and checking on their ships on the battlefield. Another few nice functions would be the ability to right click the Player in the Squad Window and "Look At" similar to normal playing dynamics. Additionally it would be good to have a Filter in Overview Settings to Filter out the Various Levels of Fleet,all the way down to Squad level,(currently it only accounts for Gang level). Other than that I think this is a positive step,its certainly forcing players to structure their fleets instead of random blobbing.
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Darth Bob
Dark Excession
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Posted - 2006.11.23 11:38:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Lieutenant Obvious Is it just me, or is everyone whining about the one MAJOR change that is supposed to be super beneficial: the old gang system caused buttloads of lag with the calculations as to who (out of everyone in gang) had the best bonii at the time in the same system, recalculating when a character leaves a system or logs, recalculating when anyone joins or leaves the gang...
The bigger the gang under the old system, the exponentially worse it got. They change the way gang bonus calcs work and everyone stops whining about the fleet lag and starts whining that they can't just train leadership skills, join a fleet as a pleb and expect their shiny skills to be transferred to all.
Yes, the new system has some drawbacks, but ****it to hell... it was for a VERY good cause (unless the whole lot of you happen to have never been in a gang and suffered lag in battle).
Why shouldn't we point out that there's a much easier fix to this problem than this whole system. If you've ever been annoyed at how long it takes till a fleet starts moving you're in for a treat when revelation hits.
To state the solution again: let the highest ranking officer choose up to 4 'specialists', his own skills will be used for every role not assigned to a specialist.
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ian666
Minmatar Turbulent
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Posted - 2006.11.23 14:50:00 -
[234]
Hi,
Not sure if this has been asked but will there be a main leader for each tier of the gang? e.g you can assign all ceptors to one tier and then the tier leader can warp just the ceptors as a mini gang and also if the fleet leader\creator warp you all follow that warp if your in the same grid? or is it only if the fleet leader\creator of the gang warps everyone goes? otherwise you do it your self.
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