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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Darkartz
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:44:00 -
[1]
Can anyone tell me whats happening with gangs in Kali i dont seem to be able to find a sticky about it, and seen as there is no way to search....
dont flame meh, for being a n00b :P
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:48:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Patch86 on 31/10/2006 11:50:42 Gangas appear to be being split into multiple tiers, each with a lmit on member numbers.
(IIRC) People (maximum of 10) go into Squadrons. Squadrons go into Wings (maximum of......er......can't rememebr) and Wings go into a Fleet (the top level, 1 per gang).
Theres a set of useful screenies, I'll find the link.
EDIT: Here. The top middle three. -----------------------------------------------
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Joram McRory
Caldari eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:58:00 -
[3]
Hurahh more "must have" skills
just what the game needs...... Joram
My Photography site |
Darkartz
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:04:00 -
[4]
Thanks guys ;-)
really appreicate it.
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Hunter.
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:21:00 -
[5]
Guess we need a sticky for the new Gang system as well :)
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Easy steps to Bug Reporting
Good repro steps are my friend ! |
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:25:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 31/10/2006 13:26:48
Originally by: Joram McRory Hurahh more "must have" skills
Well, I don't see a rank 1 skill being all that bad. With Leadership V you can control a 10-person gang, and that's trivial to train for unless your Charisma is minimal -- in which case everyone gets to laugh at your "optimized" character
After you have that Leadership V, each rank of the next-level skill gives you 10 new gangmates. Yes, it's a rank-8 skill, but training the first one or two levels is still a matter of hours or a day, max.
After that you have 20-30 people, that's quite enough for most normal situations. Fleet commanders will have to train more, of course... but that's the point.
Originally by: Joram McRory just what the game needs......
Actually, the game does need skills that reward people with high Charisma.
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Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:52:00 -
[7]
A significant change in the way gangs are formed and managed will have a massive impact on the way that large scale combat is conducted in Eve.
I have read massive amounts of speculation on the topic, but the ONLY information we have on this massive change in one of the most basic game mechanics are the new skills on Sisi (http://imagesocket.com/view/leader6e1.png) and the following comment by Oveur.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=382
Quote: We also have the Combat Organization project consisting of the seamless map, improved system scanning, new gang hierarchy (fleets, squadrons) and better situational awareness through gang information broadcasts and integrated voice communication.
From the above you can easily see that each squad can contain up to 10 people, each wing can contain up to 5 squads (50 people), and each fleet 5 wings (250 people).
Current fleets in alliance combat are regularly around 80-150 people. Using my own stats (only 6 charisma, starting with learning 3), it would take over 60 days to train Fleet Command V allowing me create a gang larger than 40 people (including advanced learning).
Obviously it is not possible to test these skills AT ALL on the test server, so I have a number of questions regarding the implementation of these skills that really need answering:
1) Are we going to be forced to use the new gang hierarchy and skills, or will we be able to create gangs as we can now and lose any tactical advantages of the new system?
2) What exactly are the advantages of the new system? What will we be able to do that we cannot currently do with a small amount of organization on teamspeak?
3) How are invites handled with the new system, who does it?
4) Assuming I have Fleet Command V; will I have to find and organise 5 people with Wing Command V, and 25 people with Squad Command V to get 250 in gang, or will my skills cascade down to Wing/Squad commanders?
5) What happens to the fleet if a Fleet/Wing/Squad commander crashes?
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Harisdrop
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi .stuff.........
Actually, the game does need skills that reward people with high Charisma.
Remember being the gang lead does not make you the FC. You are the cordinator/supervisor. I hope tho it gives you great powers for the voice comms ingame.
Originally by: Tuxford .....stuff... Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:56:00 -
[9]
Is it really verified that the leadership skill changes affect "normal" gangs or is just for new functionality?
Maybe you can still form gangs like before but to to get the new features with tiered gangs you need to have the skills for it.
Can't be hard to test for those of you on test server. Just form a gang without the gang leader have any leadership skills and see what will happen.
lol I guess everyone is to busy with playing with the new ships.
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Viscount Hood
British Space Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.31 14:02:00 -
[10]
Is there going to be any formation forming commands e.g. form wing formation, left echelon etc..? This could be applied to different wings. This might reduce the problems of everyone piled on top of everyone else after gang warps. ...and it would look pretty too. ------------------------------------------------
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Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.31 15:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bermag Can't be hard to test for those of you on test server. Just form a gang without the gang leader have any leadership skills and see what will happen.
The problem is that last time I checked you could not form a gang on the test server.
You also cannot train 70+ days worth of skills to actually test anything.
Even if you could, getting 70+ people on the test server at the same time is almost impossible.
This is why I would like to have a developer step in and answer some of our questions, because is is a major change to a very low level game mechanic which we have no way to test.
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Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.31 17:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hunter. Guess we need a sticky for the new Gang system as well :)
What we need is a dev clarification on how the new gang system is supposed to work.
Can you still form basic gangs with no skills, but get none of the bonuses of being in an organized command, or is all gang formation subject to the new skill requirements?
Does the Leadership skill still convey a targeting speed bonus? If so, through what scale of command does that bonus propagate?
Through what scale of command do warfare skill bonuses propagate?
Through what scale of command do gang mod bonuses propagate? Are there scope differences for fleet commands versus field commands/T1 battlecruisers?
What chat options are available for top-down communication at the squadron, wing, and fleet levels?
What control options (warp to, et al) are available at the squadron, wing, and fleet levels?
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Magunus
The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.10.31 17:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Guurzak
Originally by: Hunter. Guess we need a sticky for the new Gang system as well :)
What we need is a dev clarification on how the new gang system is supposed to work.
Can you still form basic gangs with no skills, but get none of the bonuses of being in an organized command, or is all gang formation subject to the new skill requirements?
Does the Leadership skill still convey a targeting speed bonus? If so, through what scale of command does that bonus propagate?
Through what scale of command do warfare skill bonuses propagate?
Through what scale of command do gang mod bonuses propagate? Are there scope differences for fleet commands versus field commands/T1 battlecruisers?
What chat options are available for top-down communication at the squadron, wing, and fleet levels?
What control options (warp to, et al) are available at the squadron, wing, and fleet levels?
Excellent questions, particularly the last two, IMO.
By the way, if you read that last blog from Oveur, he mentions that a lot of lag is caused by propogating damage information to gang members in very large gangs. I'd never thought of that before, but it makes sense. Basically broadcasting a message to every member of your gang every time you take any damage would be a lot of traffic in a 200 member gang. ---
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' |
Kaathar Rielspar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.31 23:43:00 -
[14]
and just to tack on to the end of that post with the excellent questions:
what happens if the gang leader with all the skills has to log out/CTD's/router blows up whilst in said 'big gang'
does the whole gang get disbanded?
more info from official channels would be good ____________________
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Originally by: Eximius Josari If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs?
Overpriced Nos victims.
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Satal Sonshi
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.10.31 23:56:00 -
[15]
I want to state that I think the questions asked in this thread *NEED* to be answered, systematically and in a single post; especially the ones regarding whether or not the Fleet System is a Replacement of the Gang System, or merely a Supplement.
That simple answer will change every bit about how people discuss this new change. If it's a supplement, and gangs are kept as they were before (even generally), then we can merely discuss how to best create the system and balance it and expand it for awesomeness. If, however, it is a replacement, then we are to discuss whether or not it's going to screw up a lot of the effort that people put into the game or not, and whether the balance is really helped by this change. There is a lot of confusion here, because the planned changes are not specifically detailed.
So, if you please Dev's, which is it: Replacement, or Supplement? And how so?
-= Satal =-
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Decairn
Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:19:00 -
[16]
It shouldn't be hard to test out wing command - many people have leadership V already, will only take a second to train wing command I and II.
As said above, lots of questions, no answers yet, just conjecture. --Decairn
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Satal Sonshi I want to state that I think the questions asked in this thread *NEED* to be answered, systematically and in a single post; especially the ones regarding whether or not the Fleet System is a Replacement of the Gang System, or merely a Supplement.
That simple answer will change every bit about how people discuss this new change. If it's a supplement, and gangs are kept as they were before (even generally), then we can merely discuss how to best create the system and balance it and expand it for awesomeness. If, however, it is a replacement, then we are to discuss whether or not it's going to screw up a lot of the effort that people put into the game or not, and whether the balance is really helped by this change. There is a lot of confusion here, because the planned changes are not specifically detailed.
So, if you please Dev's, which is it: Replacement, or Supplement? And how so?
well put
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.11.01 05:46:00 -
[18]
Edited by: mazzilliu on 01/11/2006 05:46:46 If this sort of thing works out the way I think it does, that means me along with most people who can run multiple clients will be using a high charisma alt as a gang/fleet commander, perhaps in a covert ops, sitting in a safe, just so one can lead gangs without diverting their skilltraining(or, in my case, i can enjoy my ns 3 charisma achura character).
am i mistaken or is this going to become commonplace?
and is there any word on whether or not the rank level of those skills will get lowered?
i understand the intent of this sytem, but out-of-game communications systems and current alliance sizes pretty much make sure there will be no max gang size, whether or not it's supported by the game.
KILL MEMES |
Paigan
Amarr Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.01 09:49:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Joram McRory Hurahh more "must have" skills
just what the game needs......
The term "must have skills" is complete nonsense.
you "must" have a LOT of skills if you want to do ANYthing except hanging around in a noob ship. Thats the essence of the game, got that?
But you don't NEED to have most of the skills. You don't need to produce, research, transport or fight. Above all other, there is NO MUST to train for fleet command on every single basic fighter.
"No more must have skill" is just a complaint from very simple people you don't want to have to train any fruther skills to keep their relatively maxed out state in their niche. ... or fear change in principle (and you know what that means) -- This game is still in beta stage |
Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.01 10:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Decairn It shouldn't be hard to test out wing command - many people have leadership V already, will only take a second to train wing command I and II.
Last time I check you CAN NOT FORM A GANG ON THE TEST SERVER
The only way we are going to get any questions answered is if a developer comes in here and answers them for us. This is a major change that I am extremely concerned about, and we are completely in the dark with almost every bit of information.
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Kooraia
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Posted - 2006.11.01 22:46:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Fubear The only way we are going to get any questions answered is if a developer comes in here and answers them for us. This is a major change that I am extremely concerned about, and we are completely in the dark with almost every bit of information.
/signed
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Areconus
Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.11.01 23:54:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Areconus on 02/11/2006 00:02:08 Edited by: Areconus on 01/11/2006 23:56:00 This is kind of bull**** to be honest. Why the hell are you limiting our gang sizes CCP? Why the hell are you making us train these skills up? The gang system before was absolutely fine, why arent you concentrating your efforts on solving more impeding problems? Will there be new chat channels, likw wing chat and squadron chat? That will only make combat too complicated, trying to talk to people and ****.
Instead, why not take out the skills, take out the stupid ass limit on gang size. How about something like 10 people per squad, maybe 5 squads in a wing, and unlimited wings. And everyone still uses one gang chat. AND A KEY ISSUE: Make it so everyone can still warp to everyone else in the gang, like warping to someone in a totally different wing.
Makes it more realistic, because its every bit as coordinated as before, but is kinda fun to fly around with little squads of people.
I guess, the way it is now, you can only have....250ppl in a gang? With max skills, just absolutely pointless
Gloria Stitz-
"Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously" |
Kaahles
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Posted - 2006.11.02 08:25:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Kaahles on 02/11/2006 08:26:45 I don't like the member limit at all...
but it looks like we have a decission that it will come with Kali so we all have to live with it. I'm training for command ships btw. so i will have some leadership skills to open gangs BUT the limit should be a bit higher. Atm from the Leadership skill gives yo +2 gangmembers and that is not realy much. should be raised to 5 or 10 per level */me runs away into his bomb shelter*
Reasons: - better for new players - better for mining gangs (would be not nice if everyone has to train skills for leading a squadron only to get gang bonuses on mining) - if there is a nice pvp gang running and the leader get's connection problems or has to go offline the whole gang has no leader and can't continue at full force |
Mirasta
Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.02 09:46:00 -
[24]
Im guessing this is mwnt to be used allong with the VOIP chat so that you Squad Leaders can assign 5 people to do a ceartain job with out telling the other 250 people in gang. Having all the T2 snipers in one group and all the support in another ECT ECt.
It could actualy lead to a more organised blob in the end if you have people with good leadership skills.
And to cruley punish all those people that decided they wanted to have stupid starting attributes.
Of couse, You are now reading my sig. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.02 10:04:00 -
[25]
If done properly, these changes could give massively greater functionality to fleets, and allow commanders of large fleets to easily delegate tasks to sub-commanders.
I for one am keen to see how it all works.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Xaarist
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 10:19:00 -
[26]
well, this question might be a rhetorical one, since we all know nobody crashes from CCP's servers. ever. no.
but what happens if the person with skills who formed a gang crashes. will the gang disband, will it continue to exist but no new invites can be done, ...
what if the person who did the gang goes offline, how is it handed over?
---------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is an alien dressed as Bunny to secretly gain world domination. ...if you don't know Happy Tree Friends, just imagine Teletubbies on LSD... |
Kai DeathCutter
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Posted - 2006.11.02 11:30:00 -
[27]
is there going to be a replacement skill for the now lost leadership skill, ie boost to targetting speed?
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Seraphim Io
Caldari Battlestars Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 13:20:00 -
[28]
I will keep this short and sweet.
The gang size change will kill PVP. DEV'S!!! TUX!!! AND EVERYONE ELSE STOP MUCKING WITH THINGS THAT AREN'T BROKEN!
Originally by: Koshmarnaya Akula
Nothing says "stealth" like oh look a stealth bomber warped in!
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Dwight Hammerhead
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.02 13:50:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Dwight Hammerhead on 02/11/2006 13:53:11 Well this whole new system sounds interesting at best. On the subject of transmitting damage to ppl in your gang - well it sounds right, and with maximum of 10ppl in a squadron at a time this could really reduce lag, and besides with the current state of logistics ships for remote reppairing noone even looks at those dmg stats for the gang. Anything that reduces lag and improves performance is nice, no argument here.
About reducing sizes of gangs. Well thats not true, with the proper skills as calcucated above u can have up to 250ppl in a fleet. Still not enough for the UBER blob? well form 2 or 3 fleets then. Too afraid of those rank 8/12 charisma skills? get several ppl to train them to reasonable levels (say fleet command lv 2-3) and form 2 seperate fleets, working together? There are crasy leadership mofos in just about every bigger alliance in the game. Those are ppl spending tons of poits on leaderhip (like me, i have a messed up char with high willpower/charisma and currently i have more in leadership than in gunnery or missile operation), so thats not really that much of a problem, and it further makes use of those ppl. As for smaller corps - well they are smaller, they wont probably need someone with Fleet command so not a big issue there. At least thats what I think about that.
Some totaly valid concerns in this thread so far though, as in what happens when the leadership junkie gets disconected, is He the gang leader or he can just do invites and stuff and appoint ppl that actually lead the gang (having skills does not make u a good FC). And yeah, what happens to the targeting speed bonus we had from the leadership skill itself?
So all in all it looks promising, but we need a dev to explain how is it going to work exactly. Sry for repeating some of the things already said or stating the obvious, just sharing my thoughts _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig |
Mothmar Friedsquid
Gallente Spacley Sprockets Shipyards
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:32:00 -
[30]
As someone who picked, "Ship Commander" as his original autobuild when creating his character, I wholeheartedly support the idea that maybe it's nice to have some use for the 13 charisma I started with.
My questions about the new fleet mechanics are a bit more technical. EX: If I have a command module on my ship, does it propagate to the entire fleet, or does it just propagate to the wing within it?
As an aside, not being able to have fifty people in a group RIGHT AWAY is probably not going to kill EVE. And the massive amount of messaging required for notifying every single participant in a combat about how well half of the participants are doing is probably hurting fleet combat quite a bit more than the inability to make groups > a size of 6 within the first two days you and your friends are playing the game is. I read combat reports where there is supposedly a minute or two of load time where everyone is lagging - that's probably the biggest thing wrong with fleet combat at the moment.
I'd love the challenge of creating a fleet under the new restrictions, from what I can see. Mothmar Friedsquid. Because SWG sucked and EVE doesn't require my entire life.
Currently running missions with Spacely Sprockets, Inc. We're recruiting mature and intelligent players. |
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