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Vechtor
DuPont Enterprises
34
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Posted - 2015.04.23 12:16:52 -
[481] - Quote
I think people have misconceptions of what PVP means. EVE provides many forms of PVP.
PVP is when one player takes advantage over another player, doesn't necessarily mean this has to happen by destroying their ships. Combat is just one form of PVP. There are plenty others. There are lots of PVP in station trading. Lots of PVP in manipulating corps, infiltrating, spying, etc. There are lots of PVP when you have to do something in low or null simply dodging combat.
I find it is really boring after all those years of EVE existence that we still have people complaining of game mechanics because of lack of PVP. CODE. for example found the dumbest kind of PVP I could think of but still, it is PVP. If a miner or something looses a ship to CODE., well, adapt and find other means to PVP, meaning, to mine in safety and take advantage of CODE.'s dumbness.
People complain of wardec mechanics, that decs are broken, etc... A Wardec is a means for you to try to find combat. There are several others. If you go to lo-sec you'll find more combat. If you go to null you will find even more combat without the drawbacks from CONCORD. So, whatGÇÖs there to complain?
I never understood why people complain of lack of PVP in hi-sec. There is a reason for it to be called hi-sec. There is a reason for lo-sec to be called lo-sec and there is a reason for null-sec to be called null-sec. There is a reason for you to have such ample spaces in lo-sec and null-sec too. Not satisfied yet? Well there are also WHs which are null-secs appearing everywhere.
Just my 2 cent.
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Danalee
Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective
1400
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Posted - 2015.04.23 12:25:00 -
[482] - Quote
Vechtor, in part I follow your thoughts.
Only thing is without PVP of the 'shooty shooty ship' kind, everything looses worth and the game will suffer for it. You agree/understand?
D.
Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority
Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
839
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Posted - 2015.04.23 12:35:20 -
[483] - Quote
Danalee wrote:Dracvlad wrote:I have been entertained, problem was that most of my corp mates are playing another game, they have no interest in your alliance. Ok, so that's YOUR problem, YOUR corp mates weren't entertained by YOU so THEY went and played GTA. Tell me again, about the topic at hand (wardecs being/not being broken) what is your stance and why? D. What the game was offering them, and what they could be bothered to do did not engage them, I was away for a week and when I came back they were not logging in, so hard to get back from that isn't it.
My stance is pretty simple, there has to be reasons to fight for the defenders, some advantage that they have, hopefully something in the new structures, or something that will shorten the war dec., the broken part which annoys you is people being able to drop to NPC corps or dissolve and recreate the corps, these balance against the continuous war dec with no objective or even aim, both are rubbish mechanics, but that's how it is, they balance off. I have read the other thread and found some interesting ideas there, but won't post there because I see that as a place for your group to express your ideas. Some people have engaged there to talk about the people you war dec, but still at the end of it all you get to the problem that hit me, will people log in?
The question is will people log in to play something that is not fun for them, no matter how you want to spin it that is the issue, initially I thought that the structures could create a reason to fight but to be honest the more I think about it the less and less that seems likely, people will just go for the lower level reward for example against the certain loss of that structure which they deem they cannot defend, and you lot will call for more and more penalties until they deem its so not worth it that they will stop playing.
In any case it hardly matters to me at this point I listened to what Lucas said, and acted on it, you can just add me and my alliance as another group that has decided to dis-engage.
And this is also where I now disengage with this thread, I have said what I thought, I enjoyed one war dec where there was an objective, I did not enjoy other war decs that only had an objective of green on the killboard and GTFO. I will now just play Eve at a very superficial basis, do nothing serious and just not log in if its something that does not interest me, like my corp mates.
\o/ and thanks for all the fish
Ella's Snack bar
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Danalee
Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective
1400
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Posted - 2015.04.23 12:51:49 -
[484] - Quote
Mister Dracvlad, to summarize, You argument falls under:
- Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved. and - When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target. and - There has to be reasons to fight for the defenders but don't force PVP on us! and - When you are under a wardec you can't play the game like you want because someone could be flying a fast ship somewhere and you can't catch it. and - NPC corps are fine as they stand because nullbears should always be able to go to jita with their spoils and sell them at markup without anyone hindering them. and - farming isk without consequence should be A-OK. and - Wardec by marmites/other big merc groups don't matter because marmites/other big merc groups suck but you still shouldn't play the game when you are decced. Also dracvlad wrote:Damn you and your facts, reality and common sense, I'm taking my ball and going home. Final tally: Trolls : 0 Good guys: 2
D.
Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority
Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5392
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Posted - 2015.04.23 12:58:28 -
[485] - Quote
Danalee wrote:Wardecs are broken because GTA5. Actually, what he's saying is that from his side wardecs are less entertaining than simply playing another game. Games are designed for entertainment, and even when you are losing should maintain a good level of entertainment. Some of EVE's mechanics (usually the older ones such as wardecs) aren't like that, because the difference in capability can mean that a player is unable to realistically do anything while being defeated, leading to low entertainment value. From a game design perspective these are pitfalls that should always be avoided. It's really not that hard to understand, and your constant misrepresentation of this is only discrediting yourself.
It all boils down to the way wardecs promote attacking the weakest targets. You aren't rewarded for taking on a higher challenge, like how level 1 missions pay less but are easier than level 2s, but instead you get more by picking valuable but incredibly weak targets.
Danalee wrote:Noragen, you silly willy, it's any ship he can't be bothered to try and catch. As aggressors, we should only fly the ships our target wants us to fly in locations they want us to be in. I imagine it's the ships designed to evade if engaged. They are generally a chore to chase and 99% of the time safe. It's the same reason we don't bother trying to chase down cloaky T3s in null, because they'll only get caught if they want to.
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Vechtor
DuPont Enterprises
35
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Posted - 2015.04.23 13:00:10 -
[486] - Quote
Danalee wrote:Vechtor, in part I follow your thoughts. Only thing is without PVP of the 'shooty shooty ship' kind, everything looses worth and the game will suffer for it. You agree/understand? D.
OFC I agree/understand. Our corp is currently in a hi-sec war I dec'ed. Few fights have taken place since I started dec'ing this Corp and even tho I had bad luck not to get final blows for DUPO, we are winning in terms of isk lost/destroyed.
OFC EVE has to have pew pew PVP type working. My point is: it always had. What I do see, tho, is people who lacks capacity of adaptation complaining they don't know how to adapt. Doesn't make any sense.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4437
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Posted - 2015.04.23 18:33:48 -
[487] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post.
The Rules:
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Valedictio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
37
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Posted - 2015.04.23 20:15:38 -
[488] - Quote
Okay I'm back for my tuppence worth,
I can sympathise in some regards with the aggressor corps when small entities disband and reform thereby rendering a war with them meaningless, however have you thought that there may be a reason for it ?
I have minimal experience as an aggressor and a little experience with 1 man and sort of 1 man war decs ( til it was declared an exploit) very few large corps have war decced my empire toons and the ones that did I never saw hide nor hair of, (must have been the shotgun affect).
If you bear with me, I believe that eve and its culture has ruined the chance of a high sec empire alliance for a few reasons, the basic being the firm rule of 'never trust anyone'.
Pure PvE becomes boring (after a while, for a new player it is exciting and can be challenging and result in losses), that is a fact, I doubt anyone could seriously play for too long doing the same thing repeatedly, hence I vary my own playstyle with various accounts otherwise I would have left long ago, like so many of the RL friends I started with.
Currently I am rather inactive due to a boredom factor after leaving our last null home and the vast majority leaving with quotes of 'there is no challenge left' or 'its boring for me now', some of those being closed beta players with some serious assets.
I feel that there is no real reason for empire wars for the simple fact that aside from assets in space, there is simply nothing worthwhile to fight over, so if a small PvE corps is war decced by a PvP corps and feel they have no way to defeat them then it is simply a choice of 'do we bother' ? if it happens continuously then it becomes 'do we bother with this game'.
This entrenched view of 'this is a pew pew game, HTFU or GTFO' does nothing to educate or enlighten the average casual empire player, they shun contact with other players (Rule 1 Trust NOBODY), possibly like myself some will be earning isk for other activities, you do not know who is an alt or this that or the next, hence a complete lack of trust and no large corps/alliances forming. Stick your head over the parapet and it gets shot off.
It seems that the vast majority of players are risk adverse to loss, if you believe it is all down to 'carebear' empire dwellers then ask yourself one question, where did the term 'blueball' come from. It seems that the easy way with the least amount of disruption for small entities is to disband/reform and 'blueball' aggressors ?
When I first started you could chat to people in local, nowadays it is all smacktalk if there is anything at all, I am too RL old to be bothered with childish he said/she said garbage.
I love this game with all it's complexities, it's only problem lies in the attitude of the player, life is what you make it, if you are not willing to work for what you want, then you simply don't deserve it.
You want to pick on the little kid in the park, then expect him to try and run away and hide to avoid a beating, as they say HTFU or GTFO, whatever.
Some of you may just pick a bit here or there from this and attempt to elicit a response, tbh I couldn't really care.
and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.
Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON'
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Darth Terona
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
51
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Posted - 2015.04.24 00:57:01 -
[489] - Quote
Look op. Right after my nullsec stent I was hired to help train Amarr noobs to pvp in a newly formed corp
Soon after our numbers grew to the teens, marmite deced us.
Aside from the CEO, myself and one other, no one in my corp did any pvp before. I'm no military director, but I was able to throw together f1 fleets of noobs to combat the marmites. We flew cheap frigs and cruisers and won many engagements with my, at the time, limited pvp experience. In the end we did get our asses handed to us but won marmites respect. We where even offered a spot on their war machine not because we where good, but because we stood our ground and took the war for what it was. FUN!
Stand your ground. Fight with class, never trash local. Accept war as a part of eve. Everything in eve is pvp. From mining to marketing to planetary interaction. Every facet of this game has you competing with someone else
Throw together a fleet mr. Military director... Chuckles.! And defend your way of eve! |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2196
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Posted - 2015.04.24 01:51:52 -
[490] - Quote
GTA5 is pretty effective at making my entire alliance not play EVE. This is a problem experienced by everyone. |
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Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1253
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Posted - 2015.04.24 02:00:17 -
[491] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:GTA5 is pretty effective at making my entire alliance not play EVE. This is a problem experienced by everyone.
Just wait until World of Warships goes into open beta.
*hops in his pimped out Kongo-class BB and starts shooting some Burning Love*
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
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Vector Symian
0 Fear
789
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Posted - 2015.04.24 05:09:08 -
[492] - Quote
Master Otard
we had relatively good success staying in npc corps and setting up a separate channel. They have the tax but the wardeccs are completely eradicated
if we had a major op we would simply link up to a slave corp do the deed and drop out...keeping the tax at 0 of course
it has worked but never stay in the same place...it is the nomad life for you unfortunately
(once they identify a spike in activity on the map they have a sniff around and set up shop if they like what they see) |
Noragen Neirfallas
Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective
414
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Posted - 2015.04.24 07:01:28 -
[493] - Quote
Vector Symian wrote:Master Otard
we had relatively good success staying in npc corps and setting up a separate channel. They have the tax but the wardeccs are completely eradicated
if we had a major op we would simply link up to a slave corp do the deed and drop out...keeping the tax at 0 of course
it has worked but never stay in the same place...it is the nomad life for you unfortunately
(once they identify a spike in activity on the map they have a sniff around and set up shop if they like what they see) This is why npc corps need to have a much harsher tax affecting lp and mining yeilds not just isk and a new kind of corp 'Social corp' needs to happen that has restrictions like inability to affect the landscape by placing structures and what not as a trade off of not being decced needs to happen.
NPC corps are cancer. That is all
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
839
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Posted - 2015.04.24 10:02:17 -
[494] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:Vector Symian wrote:Master Otard
we had relatively good success staying in npc corps and setting up a separate channel. They have the tax but the wardeccs are completely eradicated
if we had a major op we would simply link up to a slave corp do the deed and drop out...keeping the tax at 0 of course
it has worked but never stay in the same place...it is the nomad life for you unfortunately
(once they identify a spike in activity on the map they have a sniff around and set up shop if they like what they see) This is why npc corps need to have a much harsher tax affecting lp and mining yeilds not just isk and a new kind of corp 'Social corp' needs to happen that has restrictions like inability to affect the landscape by placing structures and what not as a trade off of not being decced needs to happen. NPC corps are cancer. That is all
The issue you have as a hisec operator is do you want to kill hisec off completely, new ores in null, a real advantage manufacturing in null, do you really want to see no one in hisec and no market? At the moment I cannot see any hisec operation that could set up a structure which is entosis link size (a station basically) and expect to keep it for long.
I have read your posts in the other thread you started and can see you have some great ideas, but please step out side of your own self-interests and sit in the shoes of the people you go after and think it through and also look at the changes in the game. In fact I think Tora has done just that in how he is trying to change Marmite and all credit to him.
Ella's Snack bar
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1098
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Posted - 2015.04.24 11:11:35 -
[495] - Quote
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:NPC corps are cancer. That is all
I'm sure no-one uses NPC hauler pilots. Nope. Everyone's e-honor is pure here.
Or...eh...not |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23647
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Posted - 2015.04.25 02:03:09 -
[496] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Noragen Neirfallas wrote:NPC corps are cancer. That is all I'm sure no-one uses NPC hauler pilots. Nope. Everyone's e-honor is pure here. Or...eh...not lol true enough, I certainly use 3rd party haulers that use NPC alts to do the scutwork.
I think the more correct statement would be that some NPC corp members are cancer.
The cancer is the people that sit in them spouting the sociopath crap, as well as actively discouraging others from dipping their toes into lowsec, nullsec, wh's and other fun pursuits like crime etc.
On the flipside you have groups within the NPC corps that do the exact opposite, actively encouraging and organising people to dip their toes into anything and everything there is to do; I'd guess at a fair few of them actively recruiting for their mains corps too. The hard part is finding out about them, which is a shame and I feel CCP could do more to expose people to them; social corps may well be just the thing they need.
Used in the right way they can be a powerful tool.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Brian Damidge
Junkyard Gunners. Strange Phenomenon
0
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Posted - 2015.05.31 13:09:00 -
[497] - Quote
I may be being ridiculously naive but the war dec fee is just a bribe for CONCORD to look the other way right?
If so, why can't the defender approach CONCORD and give them a little bit more to pay attention again?
Want to shoot someone in High sec? Pay the bribe.
Don't want the guys who bribed CONCORD to shoot you, drop a nice bag of isk on their front counter to not look the other way.
Seems pretty simple and uses an existing premise to do it. |
Noragen Neirfallas
Cheeki Breeki Corp Meet The Bandits.
838
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Posted - 2015.05.31 13:21:14 -
[498] - Quote
Brian Damidge wrote:I may be being ridiculously naive but the war dec fee is just a bribe for CONCORD to look the other way right?
If so, why can't the defender approach CONCORD and give them a little bit more to pay attention again?
Want to shoot someone in High sec? Pay the bribe.
Don't want the guys who bribed CONCORD to shoot you, drop a nice bag of isk on their front counter to not look the other way.
Seems pretty simple and uses an existing premise to do it. 3 things. 1 this is isk shield and raises the bar on wardec costs for both parties. Basically the so called new bro getting griefed out of the game wouldn't be able to afford this option. The only people who would benefit are the stupidly rich.
2 there is a thread suggesting this in f&I ATM that you could lend your support too and read the many reasons this wouldn't be a good thing.
3 isd moved this thread here to die because its got about a dozen relevant posts in the entire thing
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
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Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
170
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Posted - 2015.05.31 14:22:05 -
[499] - Quote
Brian Damidge wrote:I may be being ridiculously naive but the war dec fee is just a bribe for CONCORD to look the other way right?
If so, why can't the defender approach CONCORD and give them a little bit more to pay attention again?
Want to shoot someone in High sec? Pay the bribe.
Don't want the guys who bribed CONCORD to shoot you, drop a nice bag of isk on their front counter to not look the other way.
Seems pretty simple and uses an existing premise to do it. The mafia would be extremely upset if the cops they bribed to look the other way suddenly started looking back their way cuz someone gave them some more money. |
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
587
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Posted - 2015.05.31 15:40:35 -
[500] - Quote
Fundamentally wardecs are broken because they try to force highsec players into PvP combat that they don't desire. Quite reasonably those folks avail themselves of mechanisms to avoid such combat, including NPC corps and throwaway one man corps. The better solution is to realize that you cannot force people to engage in in-game activities that they despise, and to do away with the whole war system. |
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1749
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Posted - 2015.05.31 16:16:41 -
[501] - Quote
Yeah, um. That's not gonna happen.
Wardec fees are one of those things that makes ISK actually go away. Those merc alliances that literally make their living off of wars oftentimes dump billions of ISK into concord's pocket in a single week. There has to be some, even though paltry, counter to ISK being endlessly printed from npc bounties and whatnot.
The sploded ships that result from wardecs also increase demand for more ships and modules. Wardecs may need work, but taking them away completely would not be good for the game.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
587
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Posted - 2015.05.31 17:16:24 -
[502] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Yeah, um. That's not gonna happen.
Wardec fees are one of those things that makes ISK actually go away. Those merc alliances that literally make their living off of wars oftentimes dump billions of ISK into concord's pocket in a single week. There has to be some, even though paltry, counter to ISK being endlessly printed from npc bounties and whatnot.
The sploded ships that result from wardecs also increase demand for more ships and modules. Wardecs may need work, but taking them away completely would not be good for the game.
I fail to see why isk going away is a good thing so long as rampant mining is swamping isk production and leading to widespread deflation. |
Noragen Neirfallas
Cheeki Breeki Corp Meet The Bandits.
839
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Posted - 2015.05.31 17:52:33 -
[503] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:Yeah, um. That's not gonna happen.
Wardec fees are one of those things that makes ISK actually go away. Those merc alliances that literally make their living off of wars oftentimes dump billions of ISK into concord's pocket in a single week. There has to be some, even though paltry, counter to ISK being endlessly printed from npc bounties and whatnot.
The sploded ships that result from wardecs also increase demand for more ships and modules. Wardecs may need work, but taking them away completely would not be good for the game.
I fail to see why isk going away is a good thing so long as rampant mining is swamping isk production and leading to widespread deflation. Wow. Just wow
Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Forum BFFL of Mo
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Mobadder Thworst
Noob Farmers Bad Neighbors.
447
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Posted - 2015.05.31 18:41:10 -
[504] - Quote
I actually agree with the OP. However, I see it from the agressor side of the fence.
I think the massive pvp alliances are bad... And are a direct result of the war dec fee increase of a couple years ago.
Back then, first war was 2 mil, second was 4, third was 6 (all corp to corp, corp vs alliance was 50). Corps could only declare war on 3 opponents at a time. Alliances could do unlimited wars, but for escalating cost.
I'm sure CCP expected less war decs with increased prices and they did effectively dissolve the small war dec corps (typically 3 to 5 guys).
Sadly, because all those guys could no longer afford to high sec pew in small groups, the banded together to pool Isk for large quantities of war decs.
Can flipping was nerfed so hard that casual high sec PVP is nearly dead.... Which is destroying one of the best noob training opportunities.
I feel for the noobs of today. There are very few baiters now... Which means few opportunities to dabble in pvp.
If you are building a corp, the war decs are going to be against a large powerful alliance instead of a 3 or 5 person corp.
Back before the changes, pvp'ers in high sec got fights by looking weak... Which is why the corps were so small... You had to be small and fly small to prevent opponents from avoiding contact.
Now it's just brute force... If you have 30 people in a corp you should be ready to fight a 200 person pvp alliance.
I see this as the functional outcome of the new system. Personally, I think reversing grief watch and the elevated wardec costs would correct most of the issue.
The current system really isn't ideal for anyone.
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