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Bitter Vet - High Sec War Decs are Broken. Lets Talk :)

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alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 5	Posted - 2015.04.21 04:43:31 - [1] - Quote Hello, i am posting with an alt. Intro: Ive done it all: Build caps; Military Director for a Large Sov holding allaince; FC for small gang leet pvp low sec; FC for high skilled high sec mercs; mining; manufacturing. So after my Military Director stint for over a year, i took a break from the game. Back in 2010 i was the CEO of a high sec corp. That was most fun ive ever had. We had 160 peeps in 3 months and membership was exploding. Ive been playing eve since 2006 and back pre 2013 (i think) one had to pay a fixed fee to wardec someone which doubled every time a new entity wardec'd. This means that rarely would a corp get more than 3 war decs at once. The average war dec time was 1 week out of the month. So i come back to do that high sec corp all over again and this time NOT go to null sec :). Keep it easy, since i have a life now XD. The problem is once my corp got to 50 guys in 2 weeks, the war decs came hot and heavy. And they werent like the old days of small corps. Now it was huge multiple war decing alliances. We didnt have a prayer. The corp was wardeced EVERY WEEK afterwards. Thus stomping us out of existance. Who is there to hire when all the pvpers are in the war decing alliances? Where is there to go? What is there to do? Sadly i had spent too much $$ for a corp website that never saw the light of day because once i relized the war dec mechanics, it was no longer worth it to be a successful large (50ish) high sec corp. I have no issues fighting, but a 50 man corp spread in euro/american tz simply cant do jack about the HUNDREDS of experienced pvpers camping your stations with nothing better to do. I would love to have a conversation in the comments from both sides. Perhaps there is some middle ground?
Otso Bakarti Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.04.21 04:57:59 - [2] - Quote You realize posts such as this invite bovine scatology. But, you're right. The powers that be literally shifted the dynamics of the game in favor of those with whom they are enamored to the exclusion of all else. This forum drips with the "winners" in this now trying to solidify this favor as "how EVE is, and is meant to be." Like I said, prepare for the BS avalanche by the ones "who know."
Mr Deleted Delete This 4	Posted - 2015.04.21 04:58:30 - [3] - Quote highsec is overrated, lowsec is where its at, and it solves the war deccing problems, all the war deccers cant go to lowsec, thats where real fights are
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12693	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:05:21 - [4] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Hello, i am posting with an alt. I stopped reading. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2828	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:12:51 - [5] - Quote I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm? I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6566	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:13:11 - [6] - Quote Highsec PVPers are there for the same reason their prey is in highsec: nullsec and lowsec mechanics suck. You see the highsec PVPer wants to travel in the same safety as the mission runner or the incursioner. They won't admit it. They'll hide behind "but I'm a PVPer" and then try to punch downward at everybody who has not self-declared their high exalted world-saving position as a PVPer also. As if that somehow lends to better self esteem. Fortunately the changes to SOV will make highsec irrelevant and boring again so noobs can incubate better and stay in the game longer. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36149	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:13:47 - [7] - Quote Mr Deleted wrote: highsec is overrated, lowsec is where its at, and it solves the war deccing problems, all the war deccers cant go to lowsec, thats where real fights are Like taking a Stratios, Broadsword, Proteus and Gnosis to kill an Interon Mk V, Sigil or Badger? Or even more ships to kill a Mackinaw? Those sorts of fights? Seems plausible. They look so much more real than what the highsec pvpers do. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12694	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:19:14 - [8] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: You see the highsec PVPer wants to travel in the same safety as the mission runner or the incursioner. They won't admit it. Yeah, that's exactly how being neg ten works. Your ranting has really gone off the deep end lately. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2829	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:24:45 - [9] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: You see the highsec PVPer wants to travel in the same safety as the mission runner or the incursioner. You say this a lot but you never provide a source. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Sol epoch HELVEGEN Absolute Defiance 170	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:42:26 - [10] - Quote Stopped reading at " Ive done it all"

Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6567	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:45:44 - [11] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: You see the highsec PVPer wants to travel in the same safety as the mission runner or the incursioner. You say this a lot but you never provide a source. Playing since 2006 is not relevant I guess. I've done my PVP from null to high and seen the range. What is it with people these days they need a listicle for everything that must be in print (automatically making it the truth) and a youtube video to walk their ritalined brains through every point in said listicle before they understand it. Rather than play your "show me proof" game I'm going to do something more enjoyable and allow you time to prove me wrong. As for Kaarous - try undocking sometime and you'll see what goes on in game instead of writing about it. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12695	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:48:04 - [12] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Playing since 2006 is not relevant I guess. Not if you're going to claim it as a substitute for facts or proof, no. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6567	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:49:59 - [13] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: You see the highsec PVPer wants to travel in the same safety as the mission runner or the incursioner. They won't admit it. Yeah, that's exactly how being neg ten works. Your ranting has really gone off the deep end lately. There's a fellow by the name of LieK Darz who operates around towards the Korsiki direction of The Forge region and he's negative ten along with an alt he uses and I have not seen it stop them. (Very by the book and respectable too ) Being neg 10 in highsec is still better than nullsec bubbles and BLOPs drop. Go ahead and throw some Church of HTFU dogma at it and see what you can do with it. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 231	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:55:45 - [14] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: You see the highsec PVPer wants to travel in the same safety as the mission runner or the incursioner. They won't admit it. Yeah, that's exactly how being neg ten works. Your ranting has really gone off the deep end lately. What highsec mercs are -10? The only -10 players in highsec are dedicated gank alts. And I know you know this. The wardec spamming station huggers are all positive sec and rely on CONCORD protection just as much as their targets. CONCORD makes sure no one else interferes with their seal clubbing. I would love to see someone try to undock their blingy t3 while being -10.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2831	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:56:05 - [15] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: You see the highsec PVPer wants to travel in the same safety as the mission runner or the incursioner. You say this a lot but you never provide a source. Playing since 2006 is not relevant I guess. I've done my PVP from null to high and seen the range. What is it with people these days they need a listicle for everything that must be in print (automatically making it the truth) and a youtube video to walk their ritalined brains through every point in said listicle before they understand it. Rather than play your "show me proof" game I'm going to do something more enjoyable and allow you time to prove me wrong. As for Kaarous - try undocking sometime and you'll see what goes on in game instead of writing about it. If you're going to do something as asinine as demand that I disprove an unsubstantiated claim that you have made against other people, then I will just go ahead and say that I've been in the game two years longer than you have, and as such, anything I say automatically overrides anything you say, because I'm the older player. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36154	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:58:18 - [16] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: There's a fellow by the name of LieK Darz who operates around towards the Korsiki direction of The Forge region and he's negative ten along with an alt he uses and I have not seen it stop them. (Very by the book and respectable too ) Surely, not being stopped by being -10 is not the same as travelling in the same safety as the mission runner or incursioner (or really, anyone that isn't outlaw)? This is totally off topic to the OPs point (since being a wardeccer doesn't go well as a -10), so not worth spending much time on, but surely you can't say they are the same. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Dana Goodeye Quafe Commandos Point Blank Alliance 2	Posted - 2015.04.21 05:59:20 - [17] - Quote hisec wars can be fun. fly smart and cheap, and humiliate them =) or if you cant, find a losec pocket, and move in. and have some pvpers there. a curse or two, and lets say a bunch of frigs or 1-2 t3 cruisers can fight off almost anything in a losec pocket. griffins are also can cause butthurt :) just wach out for cynos. btw, for a hisec war, you also can use lets say 5-10 griffins and 5-10 brawler ab spider comets. just need some practice to rep mates and shoot targets, not the oposite :D but if youre an old player, you should know how to fly cheap and effective in a war =P
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 233	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:02:32 - [18] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Mr Deleted wrote: highsec is overrated, lowsec is where its at, and it solves the war deccing problems, all the war deccers cant go to lowsec, thats where real fights are Like taking a Stratios, Broadsword, Proteus and Gnosis to kill an Interon Mk V, Sigil or Badger? Or even more ships to kill a Mackinaw? Those sorts of fights? Seems plausible. They look so much more real than what the highsec pvpers do. You just described 99% of highsec pvp. I've never seen a mackinaw in lowsec.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6567	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:03:49 - [19] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: You see the highsec PVPer wants to travel in the same safety as the mission runner or the incursioner. You say this a lot but you never provide a source. Playing since 2006 is not relevant I guess. I've done my PVP from null to high and seen the range. What is it with people these days they need a listicle for everything that must be in print (automatically making it the truth) and a youtube video to walk their ritalined brains through every point in said listicle before they understand it. Rather than play your "show me proof" game I'm going to do something more enjoyable and allow you time to prove me wrong. As for Kaarous - try undocking sometime and you'll see what goes on in game instead of writing about it. If you're going to do something as asinine as demand that I disprove an unsubstantiated claim that you have made against other people, then I will just go ahead and say that I've been in the game two years longer than you have, and as such, anything I say automatically overrides anything you say, because I'm the older player. Go ahead and pull rank then. I'm going to disagree with you anyway. I can't avoid this pattern that you and several well known forum names around here swoop into these threads like moths to a flame to say the same old stuff over and over again. For that reason alone nothing you will say to me has any meaning because I suspect there are people who think they own the game and don't want other people playing it. Even the "deny the playing of the game" mechanics are being reviewed and/or changed. And shame on you for not remembering what the game used to be like, how much better it was when the community was not so aspergian. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36154	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:04:30 - [20] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: You just described 99% of highsec pvp. I've never seen a mackinaw in lowsec. Go and look at that guys killboard. He is ridiculing highsec pvpers on the basis that 'real fights' happen in lowsec. But he is doing just the same. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari

Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6567	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:07:52 - [21] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: There's a fellow by the name of LieK Darz who operates around towards the Korsiki direction of The Forge region and he's negative ten along with an alt he uses and I have not seen it stop them. (Very by the book and respectable too ) Surely, not being stopped by being -10 is not the same as travelling in the same safety as the mission runner or incursioner (or really, anyone that isn't outlaw)? This is totally off topic to the OPs point (since being a wardeccer doesn't go well as a -10), so not worth spending much time on, but surely you can't say they are the same. Did not say they are the same. I'm saying that a -10 operating in highsec is still having a better time than nullsec PVP. Nullsec PVP - roams in particular but you can throw in small gang - was always "die in a fire". These days due to the resource and SP gaps, you may not get a kill before that inevitable end. Highsec ganking though - you still die in a fire, but you get a kill before you do. If that kill exceeds your loss, that's green for the KB. I've seen highsec PVP corps that have "Killboard padding" as one of their benefits. Lose some inties for some big fat freighter ganks, you know how this works. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 234	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:09:08 - [22] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm? Edit: Quote: Ive done it all: Build caps; Military Director for a Large Sov holding allaince; FC for small gang leet pvp low sec; FC for high skilled high sec mercs Yeah uh, I'm not buying it. You don't see the logical conclusion of this argument. You want PvP focused bittervets with a half dozen alts apiece to be able to kick the **** out of everyone else, anywhere in the game. And you don't see why this is bad.
Shederov Blood Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 1523	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:10:22 - [23] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Did not say they are the same. I'm saying that a -10 operating in highsec is still having a better time than nullsec PVP. No, what you said was... Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: You see the highsec PVPer wants to travel in the same safety as the mission runner or the incursioner. Who put the goat in there?
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12696	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:11:03 - [24] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: There's a fellow by the name of LieK Darz who operates around towards the Korsiki direction of The Forge region and he's negative ten along with an alt he uses and I have not seen it stop them. So what? Your whole claim was that highsec PvP players want to travel in safety like an incursion runner. And that's empirically false. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36158	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:12:11 - [25] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Even the "deny the playing of the game" mechanics are being reviewed and/or changed. In just about every thread when this comes up, most people on both sides of the argument express the view that the wardec system needs to be changed. Not everyone, but many have the view that the mechanic could be improved. The -10 argument doesn't really have any place in this thread, since that is a separate thing. This one's about highsec wardec mechanics being broken, not gankers. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 234	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:13:28 - [26] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: You just described 99% of highsec pvp. I've never seen a mackinaw in lowsec. Go and look at that guy's killboard. He is ridiculing highsec pvpers on the basis that 'real fights' happen in lowsec. But he is doing just the same. It's the typical double standard argument. There are very few real fights in EVE. Everybody wants an easy gank. But the risk-reward for highsec mercs is broken.
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 234	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:14:38 - [27] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Even the "deny the playing of the game" mechanics are being reviewed and/or changed. In just about every thread when this comes up, most people on both sides of the argument express the view that the wardec system needs to be changed. Not everyone, but many have the view that the mechanic could be improved. The -10 argument doesn't really have any place in this thread, since that is a separate thing. This one's about highsec wardec mechanics being broken, not gankers. Kaarous is the one that dropped the -10 red herring I believe.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2833	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:14:59 - [28] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Go ahead and pull rank then. I'm going to disagree with you anyway. I can't avoid this pattern that you and several well known forum names around here swoop into these threads like moths to a flame to say the same old stuff over and over again. You can avoid it by not making claims about other people, from their perspective, without presenting some kind of quantifiable data to support it. That, or you could preface such statements with "I think that..." Either would work. Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: And shame on you for not remembering what the game used to be like, how much better it was when the community was not so aspergian. Nothing has changed, except the ever-increasing tendency to demand to be able to operate outside of the game's conventional rules by the average revolving-door freemium fan who gets an EVE trial link from his favorite YouTube broadcaster. We killed (and were killed by) players ten years ago exactly the same way as today (except there were much less limitations on player violence back then), and the only difference is that back then, much fewer players complained about it. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12696	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:15:19 - [29] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: There are very few real fights in EVE. Everybody wants an easy gank. But the risk-reward for highsec mercs is broken. The only way it's broken is that it can be dodged. Everything else is dependent on the defender. My risk is what they are willing to give me. If they aren't, that's their fault, not mine, and not the game's. Theirs. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2835	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:17:56 - [30] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm? Edit: Quote: Ive done it all: Build caps; Military Director for a Large Sov holding allaince; FC for small gang leet pvp low sec; FC for high skilled high sec mercs Yeah uh, I'm not buying it. You don't see the logical conclusion of this argument. You want PvP focused bittervets with a half dozen alts apiece to be able to kick the **** out of everyone else, anywhere in the game. And you don't see why this is bad. No, what I want is you people to understand that I've earned my right to mine and run missions in peace. It wasn't given to me for free. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36158	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:19:37 - [31] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: ...Everybody wants an easy gank... Absolutely. Which makes the argument that 'lowsec pvp is real pvp' or that' nullsec pvp is real pvp' or that 'highsec pvp is not real pvp' kind of all pointless. They are just different to each other. Not greater or lesser than one another. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1389	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:20:07 - [32] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: There are very few real fights in EVE. Everybody wants an easy gank. But the risk-reward for highsec mercs is broken. The only way it's broken is that it can be dodged. Everything else is dependent on the defender. My risk is what they are willing to give me. If they aren't, that's their fault, not mine, and not the game's. Theirs. That's not risk when the wardec occurs on the attackers prerogative unless the attacker looks for it or wrongly estimates the capacity of the opponent. Every wardec target has a limit to what they can respond with and we can't all be the strongest entity. That's just not possible.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12698	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:21:56 - [33] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: That's not risk when the wardec occurs on the attackers prerogative unless the attacker looks for it or wrongly estimates the capacity of the opponent. And that's the fault of the target still. The only defenseless people in New Eden are those who choose to be that way. Quote: Every wardec target has a limit to what they can respond with and we can't all be the strongest entity. That's just not possible. I didn't say it was. I said that "not defending myself" is the NPC corp option. If that's what you want, then you belong in an NPC corp, period. Player corps are for people who will deal with wars. NPC corps are for people who won't. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2835	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:23:53 - [34] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: There are very few real fights in EVE. Everybody wants an easy gank. But the risk-reward for highsec mercs is broken. The only way it's broken is that it can be dodged. Everything else is dependent on the defender. My risk is what they are willing to give me. If they aren't, that's their fault, not mine, and not the game's. Theirs. That's not risk when the wardec occurs on the attackers prerogative unless the attacker looks for it or wrongly estimates the capacity of the opponent. Every wardec target has a limit to what they can respond with and we can't all be the strongest entity. That's just not possible. And this would be a problem, were it not so ridiculously easy to avoid the consequences of war, or bring in allies at a fraction of the cost that the aggressors pay. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12698	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:25:47 - [35] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: And this would be a problem, were it not so ridiculously easy to avoid the consequences of war, or bring in allies at a fraction of the cost that the aggressors pay. I don't think it would even be a problem then. It would simply cut out all the toxic newbie tax farm corps, and incentivize people to work together and defend themselves. Combine that with changes that make player corps the optimal way to generate personal income and you have a system that both encourages conflict and incentivizes the defender to hold onto what he has, not just fold corps every time. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dana Goodeye Quafe Commandos Point Blank Alliance 2	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:27:32 - [36] - Quote oh god, code guys, please stop :D attacking pods, miners, haulers, explorers isnt pvp even in losec or null xD you guys can be so deffensive when something like this comes up, but until any of you not gonna fight me in a duel in hek, ( im ready to bring an ibis, or a procurer to fight with, to be fair xD ) so, until that fight happens, stop defining yourselves as pvpers :D fighting a pve pilot with 0 pvp experience is the same as shooting miners =P and a 2 days old player flying a venture has no clue about that red trasher just came out of warp :D hisec pvp is a joke anyway. hisec pvp is ganking, like the code does, or station gaming, like the marmite way for example. at least the marmites doest fear to fly their shiny ships to losec and get levelled up in combat =D
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1389	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:31:10 - [37] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: That's not risk when the wardec occurs on the attackers prerogative unless the attacker looks for it or wrongly estimates the capacity of the opponent. And that's the fault of the target still. The only defenseless people in New Eden are those who choose to be that way. Quote: Every wardec target has a limit to what they can respond with and we can't all be the strongest entity. That's just not possible. I didn't say it was. I said that "not defending myself" is the NPC corp option. If that's what you want, then you belong in an NPC corp, period. Player corps are for people who will deal with wars. NPC corps are for people who won't. Accepting NPC corps but declaring evasion as an issue with wars doesn't make sense. Evasion doesn't stop being evasion when it just eliminates the possibility of a dec vs removing the effects of a wardec from an individual. If you have no issue with NPC corps you should have no issue with people using them to dodge wars. And while a corps strength may be a result of that corps choice, it doesn't change the fact that not all corps can reasonably be equal in strength and that the attackers initiative creates the match ups. Even a corp that does take combative action risks being destroyed by a superior force. All it takes is for you to catch the eye of a bigger fish.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2836	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:34:12 - [38] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: And while a corps strength may be a result of that corps choice, it doesn't change the fact that not all corps can reasonably be equal in strength and that the attackers initiative creates the match ups. Even a corp that does take combative action risks being destroyed by a superior force. All it takes is for you to catch the eye of a bigger fish. Hang on for a second. When did war start to have to be fair? When did competition for resources start to have to be fair? Are we playing EVE, or a game of tennis? I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6570	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:35:06 - [39] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Go ahead and pull rank then. I'm going to disagree with you anyway. I can't avoid this pattern that you and several well known forum names around here swoop into these threads like moths to a flame to say the same old stuff over and over again. You can avoid it by not making claims about other people, from their perspective, without presenting some kind of quantifiable data to support it. That, or you could preface such statements with "I think that..." Either would work. Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: And shame on you for not remembering what the game used to be like, how much better it was when the community was not so aspergian. Nothing has changed, except the ever-increasing tendency to demand to be able to operate outside of the game's conventional rules by the average revolving-door freemium fan who gets an EVE trial link from his favorite YouTube broadcaster. We killed (and were killed by) players ten years ago exactly the same way as today (except there were much less limitations on player violence back then), and the only difference is that back then, much fewer players complained about it. C'mon even you have to admit the sperging ISK/stats addiction is worse than it ever was. For every miner with one eye on the wallet who won't fit a tank, there's a highsec PVP/gank spanking noobs with one eye on the killboard. It used to be that a noob was left alone in lowsec (unless really being dumb or asking for it) and having a KB full of month old noobs and frigates was nothing to be proud of. The Crimes and Punishment forum was even better, full of great tales of ganks and capers usually against people who stuck their necks out (knew what they were doing) or thought they could pull a fast one (should have known better). Those days are gone. The kind of player you describe as being bad for the game is on both sides of the gank or highsec wardec. You know this and there's no dishonor in admitting it. I'm not trying to win forum fu contests. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 876	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:36:29 - [40] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Who is there to hire when all the pvpers are in the war decing alliances? Where is there to go? What is there to do? Sadly i had spent too much $$ for a corp website that never saw the light of day because once i relized the war dec mechanics, it was no longer worth it to be a successful large (50+) high sec corp. I have no issues fighting, but a 50 man corp spread in euro/american tz simply cant do jack about the HUNDREDS of experienced pvpers camping your stations with nothing better to do. I would love to have a conversation in the comments from both sides. Perhaps there is some middle ground? Sorry to hear you were unable to successfully start a corp in highsec. Without all the details it is hard to determine where you went wrong, but it is true that there are hundreds of successful corps in highsec and more created every month. That said, it is non-trivial (as it should be) to create a vibrant and function highsec corp in the competitive sandbox that is New Eden. There is nothing wrong with this. There are very good game design reasons why highsec corps should be under pressure from other players. Unfortunately in this case you were not able to provide the diplomatic and/or military leadership needed to successfully navigate the hornet's nest of ne'er-do-wells looking for targets, or rivals wanting to defend their operations from competitors. If there is anything wrong with the game, it is that there is no compelling technical reason for you to start a corp in highsec. I don't know what your goals were, but if you just wanted a social place for players to hang out while they learn the game, then the game forced you to assume a lot of risk and attention from PvPers and other rival corps, while providing you with little more than a shared hanger/wallet and a chat channel. If this was your goal then I have some sympathy for you and hope CCP gets around to implementing a "social corp" or another mechanism where you can have the social benefits of a corp without the added risk of wardecs. If you were starting a serious industrial corp then the failure of your corp was working as intended. This game is designed so you have to defend your industrial operations. If you are going to extract benefit from the Eve economy, then you need to be at risk from your competitors, including to direct pressure from wardecs. A competitive corp is not entitled to opt-out of wardecs while dumping resources and industrial goods onto the market. Doing so would limit destruction which is bad for the war economy of Eve, and targets for other players which is bad for a vibrant PvP game. There is nothing stopping you from trying again. Start a new corp and pay more attention to the risk of wardecs. Spend some effort developing plans and doctrines to deal with the threat, and work on making friends to help defend you or find mercenaries that will do that for a fee. Perhaps grow a little slower by spending more time on that and less on spamming invites in rookie systems just to get your numbers up quickly and you will have more success.

Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1389	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:36:59 - [41] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: There are very few real fights in EVE. Everybody wants an easy gank. But the risk-reward for highsec mercs is broken. The only way it's broken is that it can be dodged. Everything else is dependent on the defender. My risk is what they are willing to give me. If they aren't, that's their fault, not mine, and not the game's. Theirs. That's not risk when the wardec occurs on the attackers prerogative unless the attacker looks for it or wrongly estimates the capacity of the opponent. Every wardec target has a limit to what they can respond with and we can't all be the strongest entity. That's just not possible. And this would be a problem, were it not so ridiculously easy to avoid the consequences of war, or bring in allies at a fraction of the cost that the aggressors pay. The statement was in direct response to someone who stated the issue was with avoiding consequence, thus in the ideal war they would create such an option isn't available and thus keeps the objection relevant. Also while the mechanical limits of bringing in allies is negligible, purchasing quality allies is likely to exceed the dec cost unless in an entity that is sizable enough to have some reasonable defense.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1389	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:40:43 - [42] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: And while a corps strength may be a result of that corps choice, it doesn't change the fact that not all corps can reasonably be equal in strength and that the attackers initiative creates the match ups. Even a corp that does take combative action risks being destroyed by a superior force. All it takes is for you to catch the eye of a bigger fish. Hang on for a second. When did war start to have to be fair? When did competition for resources start to have to be fair? Are we playing EVE, or a game of tennis? Never said they had to be, but rather the line of this conversation followed the idea that differing levels of strength justified having other ways around an arbitrary ability to freely engage in hostilities.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12701	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:40:51 - [43] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Accepting NPC corps but declaring evasion as an issue with wars doesn't make sense. Evasion is not an issue. The use of dec dodging to get the benefits of being in a player corp with NPC corp safety is. Quote: And while a corps strength may be a result of that corps choice, it doesn't change the fact that not all corps can reasonably be equal in strength and that the attackers initiative creates the match ups. If you want fair fights, you're playing the wrong game. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Darth Terona Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 50	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:44:54 - [44] - Quote With regards.. If you where a military director, and you cannot deal with this problem... Can I know who you where a military director for? Sounds like an easy mark for my guys :)
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2837	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:45:21 - [45] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: C'mon even you have to admit the sperging ISK/stats addiction is worse than it ever was. For every miner with one eye on the wallet who won't fit a tank, there's a highsec PVP/gank spanking noobs with one eye on the killboard. It used to be that a noob was left alone in lowsec (unless really being dumb or asking for it) and having a KB full of month old noobs and frigates was nothing to be proud of. The Crimes and Punishment forum was even better, full of great tales of ganks and capers usually against people who stuck their necks out (knew what they were doing) or thought they could pull a fast one (should have known better). Those days are gone. The kind of player you describe as being bad for the game is on both sides of the gank or highsec wardec. You know this and there's no dishonor in admitting it. I'm not trying to win forum fu contests. We must have been playing a different game, because when I played back then, we sat 150km off low-sec gates and popped every little thing with Tachygeddons and sniper Feroxes, and rolled around the belts killing and ransoming anyone we could find. A player's age made no difference either, since everyone was pretty new. Is it more of a numbers game today, where math and exact calculations play a bigger role in pvp? Sure. but that's evolution, not regression. No one counted their DPS and healing in vanilla WoW raids either. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1389	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:49:35 - [46] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Accepting NPC corps but declaring evasion as an issue with wars doesn't make sense. Evasion is not an issue. The use of dec dodging to get the benefits of being in a player corp with NPC corp safety is. Quote: And while a corps strength may be a result of that corps choice, it doesn't change the fact that not all corps can reasonably be equal in strength and that the attackers initiative creates the match ups. If you want fair fights, you're playing the wrong game. Who said anything about fair fights? You said you wanted to trap people in decs, that doesn't make sense considering the massive potential strength differences. That has nothing to do with actually declaring war, or the ability to pursue or engage weaker targets that don't evade, or even seeking out other means to pursue those that do. Also the differences between a player corp and an NPC corp are largely not worth fighting over for most corps. The "benefits" amount to very little, thus there is no reason for such determined defense in the face of overwhelming odds. You line of thought leaves no room for codifying any form of identity save for fighting capacity in a social game. I can't be the only one who finds that odd.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2839	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:54:30 - [47] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Who said anything about fair fights? You said you wanted to trap people in decs, that doesn't make sense considering the massive potential strength differences. That has nothing to do with actually declaring war, or the ability to pursue or engage weaker targets that don't evade, or even seeking out other means to pursue those that do. Not trap; there should always be a way out. But that way out shouldn't equate to a "okay, we're canceling your war now, bye o/". Tyberius Franklin wrote: Also the differences between a player corp and an NPC corp are largely not worth fighting over for most corps. The "benefits" amount to very little, thus there is no reason for such determined defense in the face of overwhelming odds. You line of thought leaves no room for codifying any form of identity save for fighting capacity in a social game. I can't be the only one who finds that odd. I agree. Perhaps it's time that they raised the NPC corp tax to something along the lines of 40-50%, which would be in line with the amount of protection afforded by them. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12702	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:55:26 - [48] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Who said anything about fair fights? You did, when you were jawing on about "reasonably equal in strength". Quote: You said you wanted to trap people in decs Nope. I said that dec dodging should not be permitted. If you don't want to deal with wars, you belong in an NPC corp, full stop. Quote: Also the differences between a player corp and an NPC corp are largely not worth fighting over for most corps. Which is why NPC corps themselves should be nerfed, and player corps commensurately buffed until being in a player corp is the optimal choice for personal income. Player corps should mean more than just a glorified chat channel and a station hangar. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 770	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:55:54 - [49] - Quote I have had a chat with some merc alliances in another thread and the question I posed when they were complaining about people evading war decs by closing corps and re-creating and by moving to NPC corps was whether it was sensible for them to do the scatter gun war decs. Their view was that it was the only way to get fights (kills)... And I said that they were over-fishing, I also pointed out that there was also an issue in that if anyone fought back, then other hisec mercs would also pile in so it was a zero-sum game. It is quite obvious that if you lock non-PvP players into this so they cannot play they will up sticks and move to another game, gee thats obvious to me, but not blinked people like Kaarous. The most important thing to look at is whether there is any skin in the game, and the changes coming with new structures is exactly that..., which is why I looked at all the blowhards saying no don't allow them in hisec with utter amazement, the key thing is that a war dec is only meaningful if you have something to defend and something to kill other than blowing up noob ships and empty pods, or killing noobs who are too stupid to change what they are doing. I pointed out in one thread at a person whining about a war dec corp being useless when the person employed them to cause pain after their POS was taken out, I pointed out that the time to employ mercs was to defend the POS, not to have them trying to kill people who could just sit it out. Seems obvious to me, but that works both ways doesn't it. Currently I have two war decs on by Marmite and Foresaken, both paid for by a Goon, most of my corp mates are playing GTA 5, and me I am floating around doing the odd thing like saving a freighter from the Goons or playing Shadow of Morder while sitting cloaked or docked, the joys of Eve indeed... There you go I am like a leet AFK cloaker, I just won Eve Ella's Snack bar
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12704	Posted - 2015.04.21 06:59:05 - [50] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: It is quite obvious that if you lock non-PvP players into this so they cannot play they will up sticks and move to another game, gee thats obvious to me, but not blinked people like Kaarous. No one wants to lock them out of the game. I merely want risk vs reward to mean a goddamned thing, instead of be skewed enormously in favor of the PvE players. Quote: Currently I have two war decs on by Marmite and Foresaken, both paid for by a Goon, most of my corp mates are playing GTA 5, and me I am floating around doing the odd thing like saving a freighter from the Goons or playing Shadow of Morder while sitting cloaked or docked, the joys of Eve indeed... There you go I am like a leet AFK cloaker, I just won Eve Whose fault is it that your corp is too risk averse to actually play the game? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12704	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:01:59 - [51] - Quote Come on now Drac. I know that, compared to the pampered, isk bloated life they have right now, that actually having to play the game will be quite the shock for the average carebear, but if they can't get over it, that's not my problem. The game needs to change to promote conflict, instead of boring people to death. That change will mean a less safe highsec. If that's a deal breaker for some, well, don't let the door hit you. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2840	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:02:22 - [52] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: I also pointed out that there was also an issue in that if anyone fought back, then other hisec mercs would also pile in so it was a zero-sum game. This is exactly how it doesn't work, and why pvp-focused high-sec corporations aren't being picked on with wars. The caveat is that "fighting back" mustn't involve pulling your 1.2b-ISK, cap-stable CNR away from Angel Extravaganza in order to "camp" the mean griefer sociopath in his station while he's Frapsing your local rage. You have fifty new members? Put them in cheap-fit Caracals and Blackbirds, get a single kill against one of the high-sec hardman entities, and watch as you never get a single war again. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 770	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:02:45 - [53] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: It is quite obvious that if you lock non-PvP players into this so they cannot play they will up sticks and move to another game, gee thats obvious to me, but not blinked people like Kaarous. No one wants to lock them out of the game. I merely want risk vs reward to mean a goddamned thing, instead of be skewed enormously in favor of the PvE players. Quote: Currently I have two war decs on by Marmite and Foresaken, both paid for by a Goon, most of my corp mates are playing GTA 5, and me I am floating around doing the odd thing like saving a freighter from the Goons or playing Shadow of Morder while sitting cloaked or docked, the joys of Eve indeed... There you go I am like a leet AFK cloaker, I just won Eve Whose fault is it that your corp is too risk averse to actually play the game? You want them locked out of the game, you have said so in numerous threads. As for not fighting, we did 4 roams looking for Marmite, they ran or were not around, some of our guys have had such war decs before where they pick of easy kills and run, so they are doing something else, in other words boring them out of the war dec. But tell that to the Marmite player who ran from me on the gate last night too, that was funny... Ella's Snack bar
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1389	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:03:12 - [54] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Who said anything about fair fights? You said you wanted to trap people in decs, that doesn't make sense considering the massive potential strength differences. That has nothing to do with actually declaring war, or the ability to pursue or engage weaker targets that don't evade, or even seeking out other means to pursue those that do. Not trap; there should always be a way out. But that way out shouldn't equate to a "okay, we're canceling your war now, bye o/". Tyberius Franklin wrote: Also the differences between a player corp and an NPC corp are largely not worth fighting over for most corps. The "benefits" amount to very little, thus there is no reason for such determined defense in the face of overwhelming odds. You line of thought leaves no room for codifying any form of identity save for fighting capacity in a social game. I can't be the only one who finds that odd. I agree. Perhaps it's time that they raised the NPC corp tax to something along the lines of 40-50%, which would be in line with the amount of protection afforded by them. Why is "we're cancelling your war now" inherently different from "we're cancelling your relative peace now"? Why is one more allowable than the other? So long as wardecs are arbitrary why can't dodging be equally so? And why is the only risk an informed declarer might face, the fact that his targets might not willingly go along with their intent, too much to be dealt with? As for the latter, you double my EHP on every ship I get in so that I'm actually twice as "safe" in reality as compared to the warped view of protection you've created and we might have a fair deal.
Dana Goodeye Quafe Commandos Point Blank Alliance 3	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:04:23 - [55] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: If you want fair fights, you're playing the wrong game. i had fair fights =P not too many, im about a year old, and i had about 10 or so. how about that? am i playing the wrong game, ha? and btw guys, not all pvpers looking for easy gank. easy gank isnt fun. hard kill, and unexpected loss is fun :P once i lost my comet to an atron, and it was soo shocking, i forgot to warp my pod off, but it was spared :D or whem i killed a svi with my incursus... or when i almost got a tail with my incursus :D or when i killed a rifter, and on the killmail i saw i should lost that fight :D and some other really fun fights =P i like the pvp, but for me real pvp is when booth sides has the chance to win. where is the fun when you ganking a week old guy in a venture? thats the best you can do? what is the fun in sitting on losec gates, and smartbombing frigs and dessies? i know, not all the ppl have the same standards than me, but i really have no idea, where is the fun in those things .
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12707	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:06:20 - [56] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: You want them locked out of the game, you have said so in numerous threads. No, I want them to not get to have their cake and eat it too. I want conflict to be promoted by the game mechanics, not stifled. If conflict being a thing means not playing the game to you(or to anyone), then you're what's wrong with EVE Online. Quote: As for not fighting, we did 4 roams looking for Marmite Wait, what? Why would you "roam" looking for Marmite? Go to a trade hub. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12707	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:10:03 - [57] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Why is "we're cancelling your war now" inherently different from "we're cancelling your relative peace now"? Why is one more allowable than the other? Because loss is supposed to happen. It's pretty much the entire point of this game. Quote: So long as wardecs are arbitrary why can't dodging be equally so? Because wars are intended, and if you don't want them, you already have an option, NPC corps. What you want is the best of both worlds via an exploit. You're flailing wildly to try and justify this overpowered advantage, but the truth of the matter is that if you don't want wars, you do not belong in a player corp. Player corps are for players. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6571	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:10:17 - [58] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: It is quite obvious that if you lock non-PvP players into this so they cannot play they will up sticks and move to another game, gee thats obvious to me, but not blinked people like Kaarous. No one wants to lock them out of the game. I merely want risk vs reward to mean a goddamned thing, instead of be skewed enormously in favor of the PvE players. Quote: Currently I have two war decs on by Marmite and Foresaken, both paid for by a Goon, most of my corp mates are playing GTA 5, and me I am floating around doing the odd thing like saving a freighter from the Goons or playing Shadow of Morder while sitting cloaked or docked, the joys of Eve indeed... There you go I am like a leet AFK cloaker, I just won Eve Whose fault is it that your corp is too risk averse to actually play the game? Damn I could have bet ISK on these responses. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1389	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:10:35 - [59] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Who said anything about fair fights? You did, when you were jawing on about "reasonably equal in strength". Quote: You said you wanted to trap people in decs Nope. I said that dec dodging should not be permitted. If you don't want to deal with wars, you belong in an NPC corp, full stop. Quote: Also the differences between a player corp and an NPC corp are largely not worth fighting over for most corps. Which is why NPC corps themselves should be nerfed, and player corps commensurately buffed until being in a player corp is the optimal choice for personal income. Player corps should mean more than just a glorified chat channel and a station hangar. No, I never said fights should be fair, but rather that differences in strength should allow differences in response. Nowhere did I say decs should be restricted to entities of similar strength, I was even explicit about that. And the dodging concept, we're saying the same thing. Disabling the ability to dodge is trapping someone into a dec. If you don't believe so I'd like you to actually explain what you find to be different. Also, why again should a player corp need to meet any standard? What's so wrong with a social construct in itself in a social game? And how does that translate to corps that never undock? Player corps should mean what those who create them intend for them to mean and be defended as they intend them to be defended.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12707	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:11:39 - [60] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Damn I could have bet ISK on these responses. Are you going to bite ankles, or are you going to rant about the good old days like a hipster? Pick one. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.

Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2843	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:13:36 - [61] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Why is "we're cancelling your war now" inherently different from "we're cancelling your relative peace now"? Why is one more allowable than the other? So long as wardecs are arbitrary why can't dodging be equally so? And why is the only risk an informed declarer might face, the fact that his targets might not willingly go along with their intent, too much to be dealt with? As for the latter, you double my EHP on every ship I get in so that I'm actually twice as "safe" in reality as compared to the warped view of protection you've created and we might have a fair deal. And why should other players be able to cancel my mining income by mining out all of the asteroids themselves, or cancel my trading income by undercutting my orders on the market? Why is one more allowable than the other? At least the people declaring war have to pay something for it, while defense is completely and utterly free (let's not argue that the 2 million to reform a corporation is an actual cost here). And ship EHP has already been buffed, many times. Especially on haulers and barges. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6575	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:14:19 - [62] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: C'mon even you have to admit the sperging ISK/stats addiction is worse than it ever was. For every miner with one eye on the wallet who won't fit a tank, there's a highsec PVP/gank spanking noobs with one eye on the killboard. It used to be that a noob was left alone in lowsec (unless really being dumb or asking for it) and having a KB full of month old noobs and frigates was nothing to be proud of. The Crimes and Punishment forum was even better, full of great tales of ganks and capers usually against people who stuck their necks out (knew what they were doing) or thought they could pull a fast one (should have known better). Those days are gone. The kind of player you describe as being bad for the game is on both sides of the gank or highsec wardec. You know this and there's no dishonor in admitting it. I'm not trying to win forum fu contests. We must have been playing a different game, because when I played back then, we sat 150km off low-sec gates and popped every little thing with Tachygeddons and sniper Feroxes, and rolled around the belts killing and ransoming anyone we could find. A player's age made no difference either, since everyone was pretty new. Is it more of a numbers game today, where math and exact calculations play a bigger role in pvp? Sure. but that's evolution, not regression. No one counted their DPS and healing in vanilla WoW raids either. So you are in that small minority of players from that time that CCP should have put the kibosh on before your play style became epidemic and caused this great game to never get beyond niche status. Certainly you are proud of your accomplishment. If I could go back in time I would beg CCP to ensure that ship size put a limit on how many ships could lock it. But you know, the game mechanics that make kill-everything-that-moves for no reason game play has been in your favor, and you used it in your way. But every time you are bored in your gate camp, remember you have only yourself to blame. Give yourself a pat on the back. Yay. Woopee. Hey we have someone who killed everything they saw on their overview over here. All hail! Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12711	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:15:10 - [63] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: No, I never said fights should be fair, but rather that differences in strength should allow differences in response. And what, praytell, does that mean? I bet you're about to say that weaker groups should just be allowed to be functionally immune. Quote: Disabling the ability to dodge is trapping someone into a dec. No, it's not. It's keeping people from playing games with the corp creation system in order to be immune to wars. If you want to be immune to wars, there's already a place for that. If you aren't in that place, you get to deal with wars. Quote: Also, why again should a player corp need to meet any standard? Because this is a PvP game, first, last, and always. Defending yourself is not optional, or at least it shouldn't be. Quote: Player corps should mean what those who create them intend for them to mean and be defended as they intend them to be defended. Not if how they intend for it to be defended is an exploit, no. Defending does not mean "push button, get free safety". Defending should mean actually playing the game. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2843	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:16:37 - [64] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: C'mon even you have to admit the sperging ISK/stats addiction is worse than it ever was. For every miner with one eye on the wallet who won't fit a tank, there's a highsec PVP/gank spanking noobs with one eye on the killboard. It used to be that a noob was left alone in lowsec (unless really being dumb or asking for it) and having a KB full of month old noobs and frigates was nothing to be proud of. The Crimes and Punishment forum was even better, full of great tales of ganks and capers usually against people who stuck their necks out (knew what they were doing) or thought they could pull a fast one (should have known better). Those days are gone. The kind of player you describe as being bad for the game is on both sides of the gank or highsec wardec. You know this and there's no dishonor in admitting it. I'm not trying to win forum fu contests. We must have been playing a different game, because when I played back then, we sat 150km off low-sec gates and popped every little thing with Tachygeddons and sniper Feroxes, and rolled around the belts killing and ransoming anyone we could find. A player's age made no difference either, since everyone was pretty new. Is it more of a numbers game today, where math and exact calculations play a bigger role in pvp? Sure. but that's evolution, not regression. No one counted their DPS and healing in vanilla WoW raids either. So you are in that small minority of players from that time that CCP should have put the kibosh on before your play style became epidemic and caused this great game to never get beyond niche status. Certainly you are proud of your accomplishment. If I could go back in time I would beg CCP to ensure that ship size put a limit on how many ships could lock it. But you know, the game mechanics that make kill-everything-that-moves for no reason game play has been in your favor, and you used it in your way. But every time you are bored in your gate camp, remember you have only yourself to blame. Give yourself a pat on the back. Yay. Woopee. Hey we have someone who killed everything they saw on their overview over here. All hail! Yes, I'm in that small minority of players that should have been neutered a decade ago, so that EVE could have become a successful, cooperative themepark, in which players work together to make the universe a better place for all of its inhabitants. Sorry for ruining your game. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 773	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:17:45 - [65] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: You want them locked out of the game, you have said so in numerous threads. No, I want them to not get to have their cake and eat it too. I want conflict to be promoted by the game mechanics, not stifled. If conflict being a thing means not playing the game to you(or to anyone), then you're what's wrong with EVE Online. Quote: As for not fighting, we did 4 roams looking for Marmite Wait, what? Why would you "roam" looking for Marmite? Go to a trade hub. I made bold and underlined a statement that works both ways, you seem to support cloaky afk camping, these people do exactly that. So mister genius suggests that going to Jita where they have ships to pick from and all their RR alts stationed is a good idea when I am better off picking them off in the pipes, which was why they ran. My guys did that a few times said damn this lets play GTA 5, these are people who have done a lot of PvP, not people who talk about it. Ella's Snack bar
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12711	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:18:06 - [66] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: So you are in that small minority of players from that time that CCP should have put the kibosh on before your play style became epidemic and caused this great game to never get beyond niche status. Yeah, God forbid that people shoot other people in a PvP game. Much less have fun doing so. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1389	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:18:37 - [67] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Why is "we're cancelling your war now" inherently different from "we're cancelling your relative peace now"? Why is one more allowable than the other? Because loss is supposed to happen. It's pretty much the entire point of this game. Quote: So long as wardecs are arbitrary why can't dodging be equally so? Because wars are intended, and if you don't want them, you already have an option, NPC corps. What you want is the best of both worlds via an exploit. You're flailing wildly to try and justify this overpowered advantage, but the truth of the matter is that if you don't want wars, you do not belong in a player corp. Player corps are for players. Wardec's aren't the sole means of loss. Places in which wardecs have no meaning play host to the greatest amount of loss per person living there. Eliminating wardecs would probably be one of the least impacting things to happen in terms of loss for any equivalent mechanics change. We're also not dealing with a mechanism of guaranteed loss. CCP themselves noted that a number of decs end without loss due to both evasion and inactivity. We could count that inactivity as some sort of moral victory for the attacker, but really it's just another contributor to alt proliferation. As for wars being intended, if all "dodging" is unintended, why is it still possible? It should be mechanically simple to restrict it, so why is it not happening? Also exploits are against the EULA, if this is an exploit it should be handled by the GM's. If it's not being handled by the GM's, it's likely not an exploit.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6575	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:19:56 - [68] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Damn I could have bet ISK on these responses. Are you going to bite ankles, or are you going to rant about the good old days like a hipster? Pick one. I'm going to point out again that you are a broken record repeating the same crap over and over again. Are you an NCO? I bet you are the kind that shows up early for PT in shined boots the day after coming back from a deployment and expecting everybody else to love you for that and want to drink your sweat. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dudebut The Homeless Farkers 0	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:20:14 - [69] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Who is there to hire when all the pvpers are in the war decing alliances? Where is there to go? What is there to do? Sadly i had spent too much $$ for a corp website that never saw the light of day because once i relized the war dec mechanics, it was no longer worth it to be a successful large (50+) high sec corp. I have no issues fighting, but a 50 man corp spread in euro/american tz simply cant do jack about the HUNDREDS of experienced pvpers camping your stations with nothing better to do. I would love to have a conversation in the comments from both sides. Perhaps there is some middle ground? Sorry to hear you were unable to successfully start a corp in highsec. Without all the details it is hard to determine where you went wrong, but it is true that there are hundreds of successful corps in highsec and more created every month. That said, it is non-trivial (as it should be) to create a vibrant and function highsec corp in the competitive sandbox that is New Eden. There is nothing wrong with this. There are very good game design reasons why highsec corps should be under pressure from other players. Unfortunately in this case you were not able to provide the diplomatic and/or military leadership needed to successfully navigate the hornet's nest of ne'er-do-wells looking for targets, or rivals wanting to defend their operations from competitors. If there is anything wrong with the game, it is that there is no compelling technical reason for you to start a corp in highsec. I don't know what your goals were, but if you just wanted a social place for players to hang out while they learn the game, then the game forced you to assume a lot of risk and attention from PvPers and other rival corps, while providing you with little more than a shared hanger/wallet and a chat channel. If this was your goal then I have some sympathy for you and hope CCP gets around to implementing a "social corp" or another mechanism where you can have the social benefits of a corp without the added risk of wardecs. If you were starting a serious industrial corp then the failure of your corp was working as intended. This game is designed so you have to defend your industrial operations. If you are going to extract benefit from the Eve economy, then you need to be at risk from your competitors, including to direct pressure from wardecs. A competitive corp is not entitled to opt-out of wardecs while dumping resources and industrial goods onto the market. Doing so would limit destruction which is bad for the war economy of Eve, and targets for other players which is bad for a vibrant PvP game. There is nothing stopping you from trying again. Start a new corp and pay more attention to the risk of wardecs. Spend some effort developing plans and doctrines to deal with the threat, and work on making friends to help defend you or find mercenaries that will do that for a fee. Perhaps grow a little slower by spending more time on that and less on spamming invites in rookie systems just to get your numbers up quickly and you will have more success. That is the best reply in this thread. Nice one.
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 4409	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:20:22 - [70] - Quote I have removed a rule breaking post. The Rules: 3. Ranting is prohibited. A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counter productive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

Dana Goodeye Quafe Commandos Point Blank Alliance 4	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:20:50 - [71] - Quote i think its not too hard to handle a some wardecs. move your ships to an another station, make insta undocks, tacticals on the station, on the gates, and if your corp cant handle pvp, fleet up, head to losec, and mine, explore, rat there..
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12711	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:21:36 - [72] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: I made bold and underlined a statement that works both ways, you seem to support cloaky afk camping, these people do exactly that. I support every mechanic that increases risk, especially to those who try to avoid it to carebear all day long. I do not support people who would rather not play the game than deal with risk. Quote: So mister genius suggests that going to Jita where they have ships to pick from and all their RR alts stationed is a good idea when I am better off picking them off in the pipes, which was why they ran. My guys did that a few times said damn this lets play GTA 5, these are people who have done a lot of PvP, not people who talk about it. So basically, because you couldn't get easy kills against people who were prepared to deal with you, you just stopped playing the game. golfclap "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12711	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:22:51 - [73] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Damn I could have bet ISK on these responses. Are you going to bite ankles, or are you going to rant about the good old days like a hipster? Pick one. I'm going to point out again that you are a broken record repeating the same crap over and over again. Are you an NCO? I bet you are the kind that shows up early for PT in shined boots the day after coming back from a deployment and expecting everybody else to love you for that and want to drink your sweat. You don't do PT in boots, yeesh. Whether they let or not, that's a really good way to get a bigass blister. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6575	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:23:39 - [74] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: C'mon even you have to admit the sperging ISK/stats addiction is worse than it ever was. For every miner with one eye on the wallet who won't fit a tank, there's a highsec PVP/gank spanking noobs with one eye on the killboard. It used to be that a noob was left alone in lowsec (unless really being dumb or asking for it) and having a KB full of month old noobs and frigates was nothing to be proud of. The Crimes and Punishment forum was even better, full of great tales of ganks and capers usually against people who stuck their necks out (knew what they were doing) or thought they could pull a fast one (should have known better). Those days are gone. The kind of player you describe as being bad for the game is on both sides of the gank or highsec wardec. You know this and there's no dishonor in admitting it. I'm not trying to win forum fu contests. We must have been playing a different game, because when I played back then, we sat 150km off low-sec gates and popped every little thing with Tachygeddons and sniper Feroxes, and rolled around the belts killing and ransoming anyone we could find. A player's age made no difference either, since everyone was pretty new. Is it more of a numbers game today, where math and exact calculations play a bigger role in pvp? Sure. but that's evolution, not regression. No one counted their DPS and healing in vanilla WoW raids either. So you are in that small minority of players from that time that CCP should have put the kibosh on before your play style became epidemic and caused this great game to never get beyond niche status. Certainly you are proud of your accomplishment. If I could go back in time I would beg CCP to ensure that ship size put a limit on how many ships could lock it. But you know, the game mechanics that make kill-everything-that-moves for no reason game play has been in your favor, and you used it in your way. But every time you are bored in your gate camp, remember you have only yourself to blame. Give yourself a pat on the back. Yay. Woopee. Hey we have someone who killed everything they saw on their overview over here. All hail! Yes, I'm in that small minority of players that should have been neutered a decade ago, so that EVE could have become a successful, cooperative themepark, in which players work together to make the universe a better place for all of its inhabitants. Sorry for ruining your game. You ruined your own. I still managed, and I'm still here. There is a new play style emerging though. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2843	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:23:56 - [75] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Wardec's aren't the sole means of loss. Places in which wardecs have no meaning play host to the greatest amount of loss per person living there. Eliminating wardecs would probably be one of the least impacting things to happen in terms of loss for any equivalent mechanics change. We're also not dealing with a mechanism of guaranteed loss. CCP themselves noted that a number of decs end without loss due to both evasion and inactivity. We could count that inactivity as some sort of moral victory for the attacker, but really it's just another contributor to alt proliferation. Really? Because according to past QENs and other various reports, high-sec is responsible for more pvp losses than any other area of space in the game. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6578	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:26:08 - [76] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I made bold and underlined a statement that works both ways, you seem to support cloaky afk camping, these people do exactly that. I support every mechanic that increases risk, especially to those who try to avoid it to carebear all day long. I do not support people who would rather not play the game than deal with risk. Quote: So mister genius suggests that going to Jita where they have ships to pick from and all their RR alts stationed is a good idea when I am better off picking them off in the pipes, which was why they ran. My guys did that a few times said damn this lets play GTA 5, these are people who have done a lot of PvP, not people who talk about it. So basically, because you couldn't get easy kills against people who were prepared to deal with you, you just stopped playing the game. golfclap he was not getting kills against people that he was prepared for, because they kept running away and enjoying the same BLOPs free and bubble free that everybody else in highsec enjoys. Lots of cake going around there sarge. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12713	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:26:10 - [77] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Wardec's aren't the sole means of loss. No, but since they decided to give everyone a button to turn off one of the better means of inflicting loss, wars have improved in importance in that regard. Quote: As for wars being intended, if all "dodging" is unintended, why is it still possible? It should be mechanically simple to restrict it, so why is it not happening? It was officially an exploit for some time, until people like you cried so hard that CCP flip flopped on it. I want that decision to be revisited. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 774	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:28:29 - [78] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I made bold and underlined a statement that works both ways, you seem to support cloaky afk camping, these people do exactly that. I support every mechanic that increases risk, especially to those who try to avoid it to carebear all day long. I do not support people who would rather not play the game than deal with risk. Quote: So mister genius suggests that going to Jita where they have ships to pick from and all their RR alts stationed is a good idea when I am better off picking them off in the pipes, which was why they ran. My guys did that a few times said damn this lets play GTA 5, these are people who have done a lot of PvP, not people who talk about it. So basically, because you couldn't get easy kills against people who were prepared to deal with you, you just stopped playing the game. golfclap So where is the risk to the cloaky camper? I am trying to get kills against people trying to get easy kills, work out what happens, they run and we don't go where they are strongest, we don't have their numbers, in any case my vets have a problem with fighting in Jita due to lag issues thay had in the past, so that is out of the question, even though I personally did that against Deadly Fingertips on the Jita undock, you should have seen just how much they had ready to use in Jita, nah are you sure you are in the military? Ella's Snack bar
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1390	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:30:32 - [79] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: And what, praytell, does that mean? I bet you're about to say that weaker groups should just be allowed to be functionally immune. It simply means options other than fighting. We don't need wardec mechanics to support immunity though, alts ensure that regardless of wardec rules. Quote: No, it's not. It's keeping people from playing games with the corp creation system in order to be immune to wars. If you want to be immune to wars, there's already a place for that. If you aren't in that place, you get to deal with wars. And you get to deal with wars with the method of your choice after evaluating you capacity and will to fight. Realizing a battle may not be worthwhile should never be a notion you cannot act upon. Quote: Because this is a PvP game, first, last, and always. Defending yourself is not optional, or at least it shouldn't be. And part of PvP is picking your battles whenever possible. Maneuvering to not have to defend yourself should always be an option. Not being a target is just as much PvP as shooting at a target. Quote: Not if how they intend for it to be defended is an exploit, no. Defending does not mean "push button, get free safety". Defending should mean actually playing the game. If they "push button, get safety" that would indicate it was not intended to be defended would it not? Not defending seems to actually lead to more playing the game.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6578	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:30:59 - [80] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I made bold and underlined a statement that works both ways, you seem to support cloaky afk camping, these people do exactly that. I support every mechanic that increases risk, especially to those who try to avoid it to carebear all day long. I do not support people who would rather not play the game than deal with risk. Quote: So mister genius suggests that going to Jita where they have ships to pick from and all their RR alts stationed is a good idea when I am better off picking them off in the pipes, which was why they ran. My guys did that a few times said damn this lets play GTA 5, these are people who have done a lot of PvP, not people who talk about it. So basically, because you couldn't get easy kills against people who were prepared to deal with you, you just stopped playing the game. golfclap So where is the risk to the cloaky camper? I am trying to get kills against people trying to get easy kills, work out what happens, they run and we don't go where they are strongest, we don't have their numbers, in any case my vets have a problem with fighting in Jita due to lag issues thay had in the past, so that is out of the question, even though I personally did that against Deadly Fingertips on the Jita undock, you should have seen just how much they had ready to use in Jita, nah are you sure you are in the military? If his military performance is anything like his play style, he's probably working supply and never "undocks" from the base. What do you do in the service, sarge? Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12713	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:33:07 - [81] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: So where is the risk to the cloaky camper? It's commensurate to his ability to have any effect in open space. That is to say, very little. That's basically the point of cloaking devices, after all. Can't use any mods, so you can't get killed easily in exchange. Quote: I am trying to get kills against people trying to get easy kills, work out what happens, they run and we don't go where they are strongest, we don't have their numbers, in any case my vets have a problem with fighting in Jita due to lag issues thay had in the past, so that is out of the question, even though I personally did that against Deadly Fingertips on the Jita undock, you should have seen just how much they had ready to use in Jita, nah are you sure you are in the military? Excuses, excuses, excuses. All I hear is you dogging on someone who is playing the game. Hypocrisy. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12718	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:35:52 - [82] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: And you get to deal with wars with the method of your choice after evaluating you capacity and will to fight. So does the defender. Or is there some trick I'm missing where being the attacker means I can't get hit back? Quote: If they "push button, get safety" that would indicate it was not intended to be defended would it not? Then they do not belong in a player corp in the first place. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1393	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:36:49 - [83] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Wardec's aren't the sole means of loss. No, but since they decided to give everyone a button to turn off one of the better means of inflicting loss, wars have improved in importance in that regard. Quote: As for wars being intended, if all "dodging" is unintended, why is it still possible? It should be mechanically simple to restrict it, so why is it not happening? It was officially an exploit for some time, until people like you cried so hard that CCP flip flopped on it. I want that decision to be revisited. Wardecs in any characterization I've seen were never as good at inflicting loss as they were at being ignored by those who suffer no real change from them or being used as an excuse to play something else for a week by those who did. And I feel the decision was correct as it came alongside pricing that made the cost of a dec inversely proportional to the most obvious indicator of potential capacity, raw numbers. CCP emphasized the ease of attacking smaller numbers with this mechanic, without those outs it creates what I believe to be a flawed perception that the only right way to play is to join the largest entity possible.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1393	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:39:34 - [84] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: And you get to deal with wars with the method of your choice after evaluating you capacity and will to fight. So does the defender. Or is there some trick I'm missing where being the attacker means I can't get hit back? You're missing where the defender has limited ability or interest, which is no less valid than the attacker's desire to hit them in the first place.
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 4410	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:39:46 - [85] - Quote I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil! The Rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 776	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:39:56 - [86] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: So where is the risk to the cloaky camper? It's commensurate to his ability to have any effect in open space. That is to say, very little. That's basically the point of cloaking devices, after all. Can't use any mods, so you can't get killed easily in exchange. Quote: I am trying to get kills against people trying to get easy kills, work out what happens, they run and we don't go where they are strongest, we don't have their numbers, in any case my vets have a problem with fighting in Jita due to lag issues thay had in the past, so that is out of the question, even though I personally did that against Deadly Fingertips on the Jita undock, you should have seen just how much they had ready to use in Jita, nah are you sure you are in the military? Excuses, excuses, excuses. All I hear is you dogging on someone who is playing the game. Hypocrisy. Ah but they are stopping the people from playing the game with no risk to themselves, after all so many vets have things to drop through on cyno's, the only risk is lighting that cyno... As for you "Hypocrisy" comment, that coming from a person who kills nothing and hardly undocks, you are in CODE which ganks and yet nothing on your killboard while a member of CODE, ho hum.... Ella's Snack bar
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12718	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:42:17 - [87] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: And you get to deal with wars with the method of your choice after evaluating you capacity and will to fight. So does the defender. Or is there some trick I'm missing where being the attacker means I can't get hit back? You're missing where the defender has limited ability or interest, which is no less valid than the attacker's desire to hit them in the first place. It's absolutely less valid, yes. Loss is supposed to happen, it is the intended state of the game, and the function by which the economy is driven. Besides, as I mentioned, my desire is for player corps to be the optimal playstyle for personal income generation by a large margin. Even being in one would be something worth defending. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6579	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:45:10 - [88] - Quote How does one be in CODE and seldom leave the station? That's what I want to know. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 4410	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:46:31 - [89] - Quote I have removed a rule breaking post. The Rules: 12. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited. The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a support ticket under the Community & Forums Category. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12720	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:46:41 - [90] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: How does one be in CODE and seldom leave the station? That's what I want to know. Have a baby three weeks ago, mostly. Gotta be a good husband, after all. Before that, that would be a wife with a high risk pregnancy. Anyway, I reported you both to Ezwal again for taking this to personal attacks. You both need to settle down already. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.

Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1393	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:46:50 - [91] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Why is "we're cancelling your war now" inherently different from "we're cancelling your relative peace now"? Why is one more allowable than the other? So long as wardecs are arbitrary why can't dodging be equally so? And why is the only risk an informed declarer might face, the fact that his targets might not willingly go along with their intent, too much to be dealt with? As for the latter, you double my EHP on every ship I get in so that I'm actually twice as "safe" in reality as compared to the warped view of protection you've created and we might have a fair deal. And why should other players be able to cancel my mining income by mining out all of the asteroids themselves, or cancel my trading income by undercutting my orders on the market? Why is one more allowable than the other? At least the people declaring war have to pay something for it, while defense is completely and utterly free (let's not argue that the 2 million to reform a corporation is an actual cost here). And ship EHP has already been buffed, many times. Especially on haulers and barges. Much like a war dec defender leaves his corp, a miner can leave his system to regain his income. A trader deals with the loss of profits the same as a war dec recipient deals with the loss of any corp assets there may be. That there may be none can nullify the pains there, but if that's the case the question to be asked is why did the aggressor pay isk to gain the ability to aggress something worthless. Much like staying in a system with no ore as a miner that falls on the aggressor for failing to find a proper target. Ship EHP being buffed for everyone doesn't create this selective protection you imagined. If I'm paying for this I want something worth it.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6580	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:49:00 - [92] - Quote Snip Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal. It's kind of like when players are getting decced out the wazoo and have to make an appeal to the player base or CCP on the mechanics of wardecs. You know, something "meta" to the game. Some people ask for changes in the mechanics then things don't go their way, others use the report button. Same thing. I'm sorry you can't see that. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2850	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:49:55 - [93] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: How does one be in CODE and seldom leave the station? That's what I want to know. Have a baby three weeks ago, mostly. Gotta be a good husband, after all. Before that, that would be a wife with a high risk pregnancy. Anyway, I reported you both to Ezwal again for taking this to personal attacks. You both need to settle down already. I for one am thoroughly enjoying watching all of the personal attacks come from exactly one party to the argument. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1393	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:51:08 - [94] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: And you get to deal with wars with the method of your choice after evaluating you capacity and will to fight. So does the defender. Or is there some trick I'm missing where being the attacker means I can't get hit back? You're missing where the defender has limited ability or interest, which is no less valid than the attacker's desire to hit them in the first place. It's absolutely less valid, yes. Loss is supposed to happen, it is the intended state of the game, and the function by which the economy is driven. Besides, as I mentioned, my desire is for player corps to be the optimal playstyle for personal income generation by a large margin. Even being in one would be something worth defending. No, it's no less valid because no one is obligated to offer up their ships to create loss. Loss happens upon failure to mitigate another players attempts to take something you have. It's not a natural automatic function that happens without realized intent. And that intent should have a variety of responses. It's no less valid than tanking a ship to make it less desirable as a gank target or watching local for hostiles in null, or even using dscan in a WH. Mechanics are set up for those who want to avoid loss to do so should they be willing to take some action towards it, and in this case the response is appropriate to the method of aggression.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 776	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:52:29 - [95] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: How does one be in CODE and seldom leave the station? That's what I want to know. Have a baby three weeks ago, mostly. Gotta be a good husband, after all. Before that, that would be a wife with a high risk pregnancy. Anyway, I reported you both to Ezwal again for taking this to personal attacks. You both need to settle down already. Diddums, and your posts are full of personal attacks, and we don't report them. Thanks for confirming something we all knew in that post. Ella's Snack bar
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6580	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:54:27 - [96] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Sorry you have to resort to the reporting tool. Personally, I find it regrettable that you two devolve into ad hominems and personal attacks so quickly. It's really rather telling of the state of your argument, when all you can is spend an entire page on that kind of nonsense, rather than even try to argue your point. You need to settle down, as I mentioned above. You are the one who does that, then uses the reporting tool when you get back what you dished out. That, IMO, makes you the lowest form of life and no lionger worth debating with knowing you are going to go running to the report button. I must have used the report button at best 5 or 6 times since 2006. I'm done with you. This is like arguing with a died-hair social justice warrior on Twitter. Go and report that too. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2850	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:54:31 - [97] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Have a baby three weeks ago, mostly. Gotta be a good husband, after all. Before that, that would be a wife with a high risk pregnancy. Anyway, I reported you both to Ezwal again for taking this to personal attacks. You both need to settle down already. Diddums, and your posts are full of personal attacks, and we don't report them. Thanks for confirming something we all knew in that post. I haven't seen him personally attack a single person in this thread. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 776	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:55:22 - [98] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: How does one be in CODE and seldom leave the station? That's what I want to know. Have a baby three weeks ago, mostly. Gotta be a good husband, after all. Before that, that would be a wife with a high risk pregnancy. Anyway, I reported you both to Ezwal again for taking this to personal attacks. You both need to settle down already. I for one am thoroughly enjoying watching all of the personal attacks come from exactly one party to the argument. NOFUX... Ella's Snack bar
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12722	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:55:42 - [99] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: No, it's no less valid because no one is obligated to offer up their ships to create loss. See, that's just a lack of understanding of the nature of EVE. Each and every player is obligated to do this. That's why non consensual PvP is a thing in the first place. Quote: Loss happens upon failure to mitigate another players attempts to take something you have. It's not a natural automatic function that happens without realized intent. And that intent should have a variety of responses. You bet it is, or the NPCs wouldn't shoot back. Quote: Mechanics are set up for those who want to avoid loss to do so should they be willing to take some action towards it, and in this case the response is appropriate to the method of aggression. Things like warp stabs, mining or ratting while aligned, or tanking your ship, or watching local, those are all fine. Eliminating half the risk in highsec by playing games with the corp creation system? That is not fine. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 780	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:56:43 - [100] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Have a baby three weeks ago, mostly. Gotta be a good husband, after all. Before that, that would be a wife with a high risk pregnancy. Anyway, I reported you both to Ezwal again for taking this to personal attacks. You both need to settle down already. Diddums, and your posts are full of personal attacks, and we don't report them. Thanks for confirming something we all knew in that post. I haven't seen him personally attack a single person in this thread. Really, wow you sure about that... Ella's Snack bar

Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6583	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:57:38 - [101] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: How does one be in CODE and seldom leave the station? That's what I want to know. Have a baby three weeks ago, mostly. Gotta be a good husband, after all. Before that, that would be a wife with a high risk pregnancy. Anyway, I reported you both to Ezwal again for taking this to personal attacks. You both need to settle down already. Diddums, and your posts are full of personal attacks, and we don't report them. Thanks for confirming something we all knew in that post. We were wondering for a while who was doing it every time a hot debate comes up. Looks like we found out finally. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2851	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:57:45 - [102] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Have a baby three weeks ago, mostly. Gotta be a good husband, after all. Before that, that would be a wife with a high risk pregnancy. Anyway, I reported you both to Ezwal again for taking this to personal attacks. You both need to settle down already. Diddums, and your posts are full of personal attacks, and we don't report them. Thanks for confirming something we all knew in that post. I haven't seen him personally attack a single person in this thread. Really, wow you sure about that... Very sure. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 780	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:58:52 - [103] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Have a baby three weeks ago, mostly. Gotta be a good husband, after all. Before that, that would be a wife with a high risk pregnancy. Anyway, I reported you both to Ezwal again for taking this to personal attacks. You both need to settle down already. Diddums, and your posts are full of personal attacks, and we don't report them. Thanks for confirming something we all knew in that post. I haven't seen him personally attack a single person in this thread. Really, wow you sure about that... Very sure. Oh dear reading and comprehension skills and all that... Ella's Snack bar
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12722	Posted - 2015.04.21 07:58:55 - [104] - Quote Not that I'm going to be a tool and discuss forum moderation, but if I made so many personal attacks like you claim, why weren't they deleted when Ezwal had to come in here so many times because of you two guys? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 780	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:01:02 - [105] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Not that I'm going to be a tool and discuss forum moderation, but if I made so many personal attacks like you claim, why weren't they deleted when Ezwal had to come in here so many times because of you two guys? You know you are not supposed to talk about forum moderation, good test this one, will it get deleted. And in any case he came in because you started whining, like you have done on so many other threads, thanks for confirming that to us. Ella's Snack bar
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1394	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:02:52 - [106] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: No, it's no less valid because no one is obligated to offer up their ships to create loss. See, that's just a lack of understanding of the nature of EVE. Each and every player is obligated to do this. That's why non consensual PvP is a thing in the first place. Quote: Loss happens upon failure to mitigate another players attempts to take something you have. It's not a natural automatic function that happens without realized intent. And that intent should have a variety of responses. You bet it is, or the NPCs wouldn't shoot back. Quote: Mechanics are set up for those who want to avoid loss to do so should they be willing to take some action towards it, and in this case the response is appropriate to the method of aggression. Things like warp stabs, mining or ratting while aligned, or tanking your ship, or watching local, those are all fine. Eliminating half the risk in highsec by playing games with the corp creation system? That is not fine. No, no player is obligated to it, which is why observational and defensive mechanism exist. You are allowed to keep you assets to the extent of your ability to keep them from harm. The nature of eve in no way defies this. It's only a failure to understand the limits of PvP that encourages thinking otherwise. Until you realize both active and passive defense are PvP can you see that the ability to interfere with the intent of others doesn't inherently create loss. Edit: Also PvE encounters exist to be farmed at certain effort barriers. They create loss when people don't understand that, but their intend is the generation of resources and income, not loss.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6583	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:04:21 - [107] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Not that I'm going to be a tool and discuss forum moderation, but if I made so many personal attacks like you claim, why weren't they deleted when Ezwal had to come in here so many times because of you two guys? You know you are not supposed to talk about forum moderation, good test this one, will it get deleted. I've got him blocked. His statement was intentionally trying to poke you with a stick so he can put this thread right after the one he has in his sig about IZ. That's the kind of person we are dealing with. The answer to his question is "because he's the one using the report button". I'm using the block button. Hopefully he's not an American so I don't have to worry about what he's thinking while in a voting booth. Good night everybody. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36161	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:13:16 - [108] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: You are the one who does that, then uses the reporting tool when you get back what you dished out. That, IMO, makes you the lowest form of life and no lionger worth debating with knowing you are going to go running to the report button. I must have used the report button at best 5 or 6 times since 2006. I'm done with you. This is like arguing with a died-hair social justice warrior on Twitter. Go and report that too. He doesn't need to. I did already. Irrespective of who it's from or who it's directed that, those types of posts don't belong here. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12722	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:13:40 - [109] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: No, no player is obligated to it, which is why observational and defensive mechanism exist. You are allowed to keep you assets to the extent of your ability to keep them from harm. The nature of eve in no way defies this. It's only a failure to understand the limits of PvP that encourages thinking otherwise. I think you misunderstand. I'm not talking about an obligation to die in every specific instance. But as a general rule, yes, everyone exists for their ship to explode, it's the major driving force in the game. Quote: Until you realize both active and passive defense are PvP can you see that the ability to interfere with the intent of others doesn't inherently create loss. Passive... what in the hell are you talking about? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 780	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:16:22 - [110] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: You are the one who does that, then uses the reporting tool when you get back what you dished out. That, IMO, makes you the lowest form of life and no lionger worth debating with knowing you are going to go running to the report button. I must have used the report button at best 5 or 6 times since 2006. I'm done with you. This is like arguing with a died-hair social justice warrior on Twitter. Go and report that too. He doesn't need to. I did already. Irrespective of who it's from or who it's directed that, those types of posts don't belong here. diddums... Ella's Snack bar

Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 783	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:19:11 - [111] - Quote removed double post Ella's Snack bar
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 783	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:20:01 - [112] - Quote Quote: Until you realize both active and passive defense are PvP can you see that the ability to interfere with the intent of others doesn't inherently create loss. Passive... what in the hell are you talking about? This is another reason why engaging with you is a waste of time, its obvious except if you are too up yourself. Ella's Snack bar
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12724	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:22:52 - [113] - Quote Now, don't shoot steam out your ears, but I did report that double post for deletion. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 784	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:28:58 - [114] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Now, don't shoot steam out your ears, but I did report that double post for deletion. Well this fun exchange was very educational and confirmed a few things for us, nice try at a come back there, but you did the damage earlier. Thank you for your errors... Ella's Snack bar
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36163	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:30:29 - [115] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: diddums... It's also just total disrespect to the OP, who bought a well thought out and expressed post (irrespective of our individual opinions on the topic), which was totally derailed almost from the start. Why even carry on with this sort of stuff when the actual topic of the thread could be discussed instead? I'm not claiming to be better than anyone in this. Just lamenting the situation that we can't be civil to each other, especially when unprovoked to begin with. Someone always has to claim a higher moral ground and in doing so, attacks someone else. It's just hypocritical. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1394	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:33:46 - [116] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: No, no player is obligated to it, which is why observational and defensive mechanism exist. You are allowed to keep you assets to the extent of your ability to keep them from harm. The nature of eve in no way defies this. It's only a failure to understand the limits of PvP that encourages thinking otherwise. I think you misunderstand. I'm not talking about an obligation to die in every specific instance. But as a general rule, yes, everyone exists for their ship to explode, it's the major driving force in the game. Quote: Until you realize both active and passive defense are PvP can you see that the ability to interfere with the intent of others doesn't inherently create loss. Passive... what in the hell are you talking about? Maybe we're just dealing with the inversion of the same principle, while at any time you may find yourself outwitted and out of a ship, per the rules of the game, you may also find yourself on the winning side of your pursuit to keep your ship intact. I find neither of these possibilities to be more for or against against the nature of eve. The nature of eve is competition, and anytime you dock in the same ship you undocked in, intent to lose it notwithstanding, you "won" that round in a way. Since there are more than enough of us putting ships at risk, ours or each others, many times realizing the full extent of that risk, there is no obligation created for another individual to not do their best to mitigate their own risk. And additionally, the decision doesn't have to be all or none. In applying to the wardec situation I feel the same. There is validity in mitigation of potential loss. That shouldn't mean corps that are purely social constructs shouldn't exist because the only valid corps are defense pacts between players. And if in a corp against overwhelming odds, playing on an alt or just not logging in should not be optimal choices. As far as the use of the word passive, in this context I used it to mean acts that aren't directly confrontational to protect ones assets, tanking a barge, avoiding bling fitting mission ships, not overloading haulers isk wise, basically things that aren't designed to deter a specific aggression as much as to prevent aggressors from even taking notice of you.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 784	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:35:43 - [117] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Dracvlad wrote: diddums... It's also just total disrespect to the OP, who bought a well thought out and expressed post, which we all just totally derailed from the start. Why even carry on with this sort of stuff when the actual topic of the thread could be discussed instead. I'm not claiming to be better than anyone in this. Just lamenting the situation that we can't be civil to each other, especially when unprovoked to begin with. The slime dripping from that post was awesome to behold... Ella's Snack bar
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20692	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:36:26 - [118] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Hello, i am posting with an alt. Intro: Ive done it all: Build caps; Military Director for a Large Sov holding allaince; FC for small gang leet pvp low sec; FC for high skilled high sec mercs; mining; manufacturing. So after my Military Director stint for over a year, i took a break from the game. Back in 2010 i was the CEO of a high sec corp. That was most fun ive ever had. We had 160 peeps in 3 months and membership was exploding. Ive been playing eve since 2006 and back pre 2013 (i think) one had to pay a fixed fee to wardec someone which doubled every time a new entity wardec'd. This means that rarely would a corp get more than 3 war decs at once. The average war dec time was 1 week out of the month. So i come back to do that high sec corp all over again. The problem is once my corp got to 50 guys in 2 weeks, the war decs came hot and heavy. And they werent like the old days of small corps. Now it was huge multiple war decing alliances. We didnt have a prayer. The corp was wardeced EVERY WEEK afterwards. Thus stomping us out of existance. Who is there to hire when all the pvpers are in the war decing alliances? Where is there to go? What is there to do? Sadly i had spent too much $$ for a corp website that never saw the light of day because once i relized the war dec mechanics, it was no longer worth it to be a successful large (50+) high sec corp. I have no issues fighting, but a 50 man corp spread in euro/american tz simply cant do jack about the HUNDREDS of experienced pvpers camping your stations with nothing better to do. I would love to have a conversation in the comments from both sides. Perhaps there is some middle ground? There's usually a good reason this happens. If you get decced constantly it's quite possible you have a badmouth in your corp. In any case is it wrong to believe that a few can't do much against many. LOVESQUAD would be a good example. Even a day old noob cqn be extremely usefull in a war and replacing his ships is cheap as well. Most often there are also people in leadership positions they shouldn't be. In any case would you have to be very unlucky to attract a lot of decs without giving them any reason, because there are way too many corps to dec. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36165	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:37:08 - [119] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The slime dripping from that post was awesome to behold... Why's that? Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12725	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:41:28 - [120] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Maybe we're just dealing with the inversion of the same principle, while at any time you may find yourself outwitted and out of a ship, per the rules of the game, you may also find yourself on the winning side of your pursuit to keep your ship intact. I find neither of these possibilities to be more for or against against the nature of eve. And, so long as you're actually doing it with intended game mechanics, I have no issue with it either. But you cannot sit there and tell me that CCP intended wars to be trivially removed by screwing around with loopholes in the corp creation mechanics. It's right there in the dev blog, the intended method to dissolve wars is the surrender function. Quote: In applying to the wardec situation I feel the same. There is validity in mitigation of potential loss. If that mitigation involves actually playing the game, yes. I have no problem with people who avoid me, I spent damn near three hours a while ago hunting one guy who I just could not catch. But flipping corps and trivializing the existence of the mechanic in the first place is not "mitigation". It's an exploit used to abrogate the need for any other forms of mitigation at all. Quote: That shouldn't mean corps that are purely social constructs shouldn't exist because the only valid corps are defense pacts between players. Purely social constructs are chat channels. Nothing further need be done about that. Quote: As far as the use of the word passive, in this context I used it to mean acts that aren't directly confrontational to protect ones assets, tanking a barge, avoiding bling fitting mission ships, not overloading haulers isk wise, basically things that aren't designed to deter a specific aggression as much as to prevent aggressors from even taking notice of you. Those all involve actually doing something in the game itself. Those involve making decisions and weighing choices. Dec dodging does not, it just gives you free safety, no fuss, no muss, fire and forget. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.

Sykaotic Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 32	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:44:14 - [121] - Quote Erhmmm Troll Alert... OPer was purchased 3 weeks ago.... buyer in corp with big alliance with 0 war decs lol. Just get rid of mining and missioning and trolls will go to another game to troll. Win win. lol
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20696	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:47:14 - [122] - Quote Six pages in a few hours. You geniuses really are so easy to play, it's disgusting. Scipio ... why do you care? He is BAITING YOU INTO RESPONDING! Use your brain already! "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1396	Posted - 2015.04.21 08:57:56 - [123] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Maybe we're just dealing with the inversion of the same principle, while at any time you may find yourself outwitted and out of a ship, per the rules of the game, you may also find yourself on the winning side of your pursuit to keep your ship intact. I find neither of these possibilities to be more for or against against the nature of eve. And, so long as you're actually doing it with intended game mechanics, I have no issue with it either. But you cannot sit there and tell me that CCP intended wars to be trivially removed by screwing around with loopholes in the corp creation mechanics. It's right there in the dev blog, the intended method to dissolve wars is the surrender function. Quote: In applying to the wardec situation I feel the same. There is validity in mitigation of potential loss. If that mitigation involves actually playing the game, yes. I have no problem with people who avoid me, I spent damn near three hours a while ago hunting one guy who I just could not catch. But flipping corps and trivializing the existence of the mechanic in the first place is not "mitigation". It's an exploit used to abrogate the need for any other forms of mitigation at all. Quote: That shouldn't mean corps that are purely social constructs shouldn't exist because the only valid corps are defense pacts between players. Purely social constructs are chat channels. Nothing further need be done about that. Quote: As far as the use of the word passive, in this context I used it to mean acts that aren't directly confrontational to protect ones assets, tanking a barge, avoiding bling fitting mission ships, not overloading haulers isk wise, basically things that aren't designed to deter a specific aggression as much as to prevent aggressors from even taking notice of you. Those all involve actually doing something in the game itself. Those involve making decisions and weighing choices. Dec dodging does not, it just gives you free safety, no fuss, no muss, fire and forget. I'd say CCP believes corps to be social constructs among other things, judging by their desire to make corps easier to find and mechanically less risky as well as the focus on them for social interaction and player longevity from it. If chat channels alone were a solution there would be no need to get the new players into corps. It seems to me that CCP feels a corp is a social structure beyond a chat channel, but that's based upon interpretation of actions and could be wrong. I'm extremely unconvinced that the simple act of having a logo and a game recognized grouping is nearly as significant from a gameplay perspective as you seem to think, nor do I believe it should be. Personally I think a wardec should be as trivial to exit as it is to enter. If 50mill (+ costs for members) to concord starts one it should end one just as easily. Since we don't have that the next best thing is dec dodging, which is better since it lacks the harassment potential for dec'ing repeatedly for isk attrition. Last response from for for now, sleep time.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 786	Posted - 2015.04.21 09:03:26 - [124] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Come on now Drac. I know that, compared to the pampered, isk bloated life they have right now, that actually having to play the game will be quite the shock for the average carebear, but if they can't get over it, that's not my problem. The game needs to change to promote conflict, instead of boring people to death. That change will mean a less safe highsec. If that's a deal breaker for some, well, don't let the door hit you. You edited that out of all recognition , funny thing is that your original post is directly below it in my reply. Ella's Snack bar
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2854	Posted - 2015.04.21 09:04:21 - [125] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Personally I think a wardec should be as trivial to exit as it is to enter. If 50mill (+ costs for members) to concord starts one it should end one just as easily. Since we don't have that the next best thing is dec dodging, which is better since it lacks the harassment potential for dec'ing repeatedly for isk attrition. Then the fee should be refunded. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36167	Posted - 2015.04.21 09:17:37 - [126] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Personally I think a wardec should be as trivial to exit as it is to enter. If 50mill (+ costs for members) to concord starts one it should end one just as easily. Since we don't have that the next best thing is dec dodging, which is better since it lacks the harassment potential for dec'ing repeatedly for isk attrition. There are ways out of wardecs that don't involve dec dodging. Whether that is to surrender, fight or hire someone to fight for you Corps do have options. Adding more options to the mechanic that doesn't just provide a near free way to avoid conflict is also something I hope CCP eventually add. On the other hand, not every wardec fits into the 'frivilous' category that is often complained about and we have no figures to know what percentage of wars are for a genuine greivance, to gain a competitive advantage, etc. v declaring because the mechanic exists. In situations where someone is genuinely trying to 'avenge' a greivance, or if they are trying to get rid of the competition, gain some market advantage, etc.; the dec dodging mechanism robs them of that opportunity to genuinely bring conflict against someone they have a reason to. In that respect, the mechanic is totally to the advantage of the dec dodger and to the disadvantage of the other person/Corp. Mercs make a living off settling someone's greivance for them and the dec dodging mechanism also affects them. So looking at it from the perspective that the war has a genuine reason to exist, the dec dodging approach is a bit too easy. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Dana Goodeye Quafe Commandos Point Blank Alliance 4	Posted - 2015.04.21 09:36:33 - [127] - Quote this is just my opinion, so it might be wrong, but in my opinion, my opinion is true . sooo... everybody has the right to be foolish, or be an @ss... even me =P stop telling eachother how they should play the game -.- i hate the cloaky explorer hunters, the smartbombers, the instalock gatecamps, the hisec miner gankers... i mocking them in local when i can, sometimes i try to convince them to have real pvp, because its more fun, but at least i have ppl in eve to hate =D thats a good thing, doesnt it? =) and about hisec wars... handle them as you can. if youre a coward, make a new corp. if youre not a coward, but cant handle pvp, learn about dscan, and head to losec. if you can handle small scale pvp, bait your opponent with a small pvp procurer fleet with some vni and/or griffin support near by, or with a high tank pvp fitted misson runner lets say mirmy with some support near by. learn about station games, bait them with ... well even with a pvp fitted ibis, and wreck them =D we sucessfully baited the marmites some times, and they are pro at hisec station games. and the guys, who are whining about the ppl whos dont fight back... shut up, and roam in losec, morons =P well... on my ze ond tought... mkight be this wardec dodge thing is a bad one. its like when a soldier changes his uniform, and youre not allowed to shoot the same person, its silly, but as far as i know, this thing can be done for a long time. the thing, ccp still didnt changed it might be shows, they just dont want to.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1396	Posted - 2015.04.21 09:47:11 - [128] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Personally I think a wardec should be as trivial to exit as it is to enter. If 50mill (+ costs for members) to concord starts one it should end one just as easily. Since we don't have that the next best thing is dec dodging, which is better since it lacks the harassment potential for dec'ing repeatedly for isk attrition. There are ways out of wardecs that don't involve dec dodging. Whether that is to surrender, fight or hire someone to fight for you Corps do have options. Adding more options to the mechanic that doesn't just provide a near free way to avoid conflict is also something I hope CCP eventually add. On the other hand, not every wardec fits into the 'frivilous' category that is often complained about and we have no figures to know what percentage of wars are for a genuine greivance, to gain a competitive advantage, etc. v declaring because the mechanic exists. In situations where someone is genuinely trying to 'avenge' a greivance, or if they are trying to get rid of the competition, gain some market advantage, etc.; the dec dodging mechanism robs them of that opportunity to genuinely bring conflict against someone they have a reason to. In that respect, the mechanic is totally to the advantage of the dec dodger and to the disadvantage of the other person/Corp. Mercs make a living off settling someone's greivance for them and the dec dodging mechanism also affects them. So looking at it from the perspective that the war has a genuine reason to exist, the dec dodging approach is a bit too easy. Last post tonight for real this time. Fighting and ransom payment both have the singular effect of marking you as a target for future exploitation, exception being that you are better than your aggressors at the latter. If not and they want easy targets you are only playing into their hands. This, and hiring mercs never seemed like good ideas to me because 1) They both successfully inflict some loss and 2) neither get you back what you actually want as a reluctant wardec recipient, the ability to go back to what you were doing now as you were before the dec. With most I'd imagine this is the goal, and not a single thing you can do other than dodge or pay ransom makes that goal a reality, one being clearly more advantageous than the other. That does make legitimate grievances difficult to redress, but wardecs never existed with the singular point of such redress in mind. So long as a singular mechanism exists as much for "legitimate" reasons as it does for no reason at all it will find some contention in balance point and leave someone left out. Not every dec is frivolous, but treating it as if non are empowers the frivolous ones, and treating them as if none are, which admittedly seems to be where we stand, makes legitimate ones effectively non-existent. Personally I think other methods work better for all but the terminally unaware, of which there may be many, in redressing grievances since wardecs give 24 hours warning and finite windows of vigilance. I've only lost a couple of ships outside of a wardec in highsec and none during wardecs with characters in player corps and I stayed the duration of the dec.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36168	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:00:21 - [129] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Fighting and ransom payment both have the singular effect of marking you as a target for future exploitation, exception being that you are better than your aggressors at the latter. Everything I've ever read from wardeccers on the forum suggests the opposite. In relation to fighting, if they are looking for easy targets and you present a significant threat, that seems like a good reason to avoid you in future. That takes a bit of research once a war is declared so you can check their history and try to determine their objectives. If they have a specific reason to declare war, then avoiding them is only satisfying their objectives anyway. So it seems, the fight option is potentially a win-win for both (for genuine wars) and at best could be a win for you if they are just looking for easy targets. As for surrender terms, every comment I've seen from wardeccers on the forum suggests that if you surrender, you won't be wardecced again. I have no experience in that personally, but have no reason not to believe that. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20698	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:02:43 - [130] - Quote Response baiting should be a permabannable offense. Continuous responding to baits as well. Then we might be able to have an actual discussion. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.

Carrie-Anne Moss Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 54	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:03:39 - [131] - Quote Like 4 years ago decdodging was considered an exploit and if you did it repeatedly you could be temp/permabanned. There is no ifs ands or buts about it. It was 100% an exploit ccp said. Then many people cried and complained for years and eventually it got to be removed from the "known exploits" page. Nothing about it changed, no other mechanics introduced to balance it, just was exploit for years, got many many complaints, then miracle! No longer enforced. Its still the same mechanic as when it was enforced as an exploit
Zappity Stay Frosty. A Band Apart. 1967	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:04:50 - [132] - Quote I have declared quite a few highsec wars in the last few weeks, solely to attack offline POSs. Highsec wars do have value, primarily to provide risk for otherwise invulnerable highsec indy operations. Highsec should not be risk free. An indy POS would be entirely safe if not for wardecs. Equals bad. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
Carrie-Anne Moss Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 54	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:13:26 - [133] - Quote Also most of the people that cried for decdodging exploit to stop be enforced turned around and screamed exploit when james 315 used it to shed the carebear wars when he started bumping. Lol Good for the goose?? Actually the mechanic was and still is exact same. ... exploitable
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5345	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:27:29 - [134] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm? The problem with this attitude is that it's simply saying "if your corp wants to do anything other than PvP, it can't". No amount of defense in the world allows you to run non-PvP operations while being wardecced by groups who focus purely on PvP who are multiple times your size. You have no problems because all you want is PvP. That doesn't work for corps who want things outside of that. There's a reason there are no large scale highsec corporations with a non-PvP focus that don't operate almost entirely through NPC alts. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2856	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:30:09 - [135] - Quote If you fight back in an annoying manner, aggression will stop. No one wants to screw around with a dozen Blackbirds. You don't need to be a bunch of hardmen with Vindicators and Nestors to accomplish this. If you surrender, negotiate the surrender in such a manner that your aggressors become your allies in the next conflict. Build relationships with them. Pass on intel on other juicy targets you spot in your area, which will both take heat off your organization, while damaging your competitors. There are just so, so many ways of dealing with this sort of situation. If someone chooses to complain about it instead, that means they refuse to even try. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1324	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:31:35 - [136] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm? The problem with this attitude is that it's simply saying "if your corp wants to do anything other than PvP, it can't". No amount of defense in the world allows you to run non-PvP operations while being wardecced by groups who focus purely on PvP who are multiple times your size. You have no problems because all you want is PvP. That doesn't work for corps who want things outside of that. There's a reason there are no large scale highsec corporations with a non-PvP focus that don't operate almost entirely through NPC alts. Do you think it's OK for large non PVP organisations to exist and be allowed to farm isk 24/7 freely and without consequence? Also, do you think this situation would be good for the game and it's economy? D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 787	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:32:02 - [137] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm? The problem with this attitude is that it's simply saying "if your corp wants to do anything other than PvP, it can't". No amount of defense in the world allows you to run non-PvP operations while being wardecced by groups who focus purely on PvP who are multiple times your size. You have no problems because all you want is PvP. That doesn't work for corps who want things outside of that. There's a reason there are no large scale highsec corporations with a non-PvP focus that don't operate almost entirely through NPC alts. I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it. Ella's Snack bar
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5345	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:32:57 - [138] - Quote Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Like 4 years ago decdodging was considered an exploit and if you did it repeatedly you could be temp/permabanned. There is no ifs ands or buts about it. It was 100% an exploit ccp said. Then many people cried and complained for years and eventually it got to be removed from the "known exploits" page. Nothing about it changed, no other mechanics introduced to balance it, just was exploit for years, got many many complaints, then miracle! No longer enforced. Its still the same mechanic as when it was enforced as an exploit Citation needed. I've seen this claim multiple times and not one person has been able to show where CCP stated that this was an exploit. I've never known it to be an exploit and I know that it wasn't an exploit in 2007, 2009 or 2011 and it's not an exploit now or in the past couple of years, so I'm not sure when or where this was ever said. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5345	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:39:10 - [139] - Quote Danalee wrote: Do you think it's OK for large non PVP organisations to exist and be allowed to farm isk 24/7 freely and without consequence? Also, do you think this situation would be good for the game and it's economy? I think it's irrelevant, because the same people currently farm isk 24/7 with little effect on the economy, they simply do it from 1 man alt corps or NPC corps. I think that allowing them to exist under a united banner would be healthier for the social elements of the game which we know improves player retention. Personally I'd like to see wardecs as they currently stand removed and alternate methods of attacking corps and their income streams which are profitable for the aggressors to be added which aren't simply a "turn off concord" mechanic. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5345	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:45:33 - [140] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: If you fight back in an annoying manner, aggression will stop. No one wants to screw around with a dozen Blackbirds. You don't need to be a bunch of hardmen with Vindicators and Nestors to accomplish this. If you surrender, negotiate the surrender in such a manner that your aggressors become your allies in the next conflict. Build relationships with them. Pass on intel on other juicy targets you spot in your area, which will both take heat off your organization, while damaging your competitors. There are just so, so many ways of dealing with this sort of situation. If someone chooses to complain about it instead, that means they refuse to even try. In the vast majority of cases a corporation would lose far more than simply evading the wardec, with the added bonus of wardec evasion being a good indicator to the wardeccing corp that you have no issues evading, making them less likely to dec you again. I certainly don't think any of the main wardec corps are going to care even remotely about a dozen blackbirds. At the end of the day, the problem is that the current mechanics promote mass farming of easy wardec targets rather than challenging content, and so the targets of wardecs invariably have very little to resist with. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!

Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1325	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:49:04 - [141] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Danalee wrote: Do you think it's OK for large non PVP organisations to exist and be allowed to farm isk 24/7 freely and without consequence? Also, do you think this situation would be good for the game and it's economy? I think it's irrelevant, because the same people currently farm isk 24/7 with little effect on the economy, they simply do it from 1 man alt corps or NPC corps. I think that allowing them to exist under a united banner would be healthier for the social elements of the game which we know improves player retention. Personally I'd like to see wardecs as they currently stand removed and alternate methods of attacking corps and their income streams which are profitable for the aggressors to be added which aren't simply a "turn off concord" mechanic. Ok Lucas, that puts your point in perspective. As long as their is no alternative, don't you agree we need to keep wardecs as they are and maybe even think about the social corps combined with strict limits on NPC corps? D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2148	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:51:24 - [142] - Quote The current meta of very large, very powerful dedicated PVP entities declaring war on large numbers of other entities and those other entities having no war-fighting capability of their own is a product of the changes to the war system. Carebears begged and pleaded with CCP to have wars be like this. And they continue to beg and plead for CCP to make it worse.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 36175	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:54:52 - [143] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: The problem with this attitude is that it's simply saying "if your corp wants to do anything other than PvP, it can't". No amount of defense in the world allows you to run non-PvP operations while being wardecced by groups who focus purely on PvP who are multiple times your size. You have no problems because all you want is PvP. That doesn't work for corps who want things outside of that. There's a reason there are no large scale highsec corporations with a non-PvP focus that don't operate almost entirely through NPC alts. Like every Corp and Alliance, we receive wardecs at different times. In our experience, the large wardec groups aren't a threat at all. They are running up to a hundred wars at a time. They aren't out looking to specifically target anyone, just catching the wartargets that present themselves as a target, usually through carelessness. It's the small ones that are more likely to be a risk because they are running fewer wars and have more time to devote to dealing with each one, especially so for small merc groups. Even then they are often running a dozen or so wars, so won't target you all the time, just occasionally each week. Good scouts make it much easier for anyone trying to avoid them and it is definitely possible to keep active, almost with no impact, if you are careful. That's just our experience and I don't know how representative it is of others. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2858	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:55:14 - [144] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Like 4 years ago decdodging was considered an exploit and if you did it repeatedly you could be temp/permabanned. There is no ifs ands or buts about it. It was 100% an exploit ccp said. Then many people cried and complained for years and eventually it got to be removed from the "known exploits" page. Nothing about it changed, no other mechanics introduced to balance it, just was exploit for years, got many many complaints, then miracle! No longer enforced. Its still the same mechanic as when it was enforced as an exploit Citation needed. I've seen this claim multiple times and not one person has been able to show where CCP stated that this was an exploit. I've never known it to be an exploit and I know that it wasn't an exploit in 2007, 2009 or 2011 and it's not an exploit now or in the past couple of years, so I'm not sure when or where this was ever said. Here you go buddy: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19881 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249 The rabbit hole goes deeper if you ask Google. Plenty of dev posts on the old EVE forums. Now you can tell me how "this isn't proof of anything," et cetera. I'm familiar with your runaround. Lucas Kell wrote: In the vast majority of cases a corporation would lose far more than simply evading the wardec, with the added bonus of wardec evasion being a good indicator to the wardeccing corp that you have no issues evading, making them less likely to dec you again. I certainly don't think any of the main wardec corps are going to care even remotely about a dozen blackbirds. At the end of the day, the problem is that the current mechanics promote mass farming of easy wardec targets rather than challenging content, and so the targets of wardecs invariably have very little to resist with. - If they lose too much by defending, then it's obvious that their operations are too bloated. Any amount of wealth has to have a corresponding, proportional amount of protection. If folding up is the most economical option, then that's just fine. But I don't think it's fine for a corporation to strip-mine all the belts and hog all the moons and then claim that it's too easy for it to be attacked. - The main wardec corps aren't going to care about a dozen Blackbirds because they never leave the main hubs. Other wadec corps will care, because a Dozen blackbirds is a massive nuisance. It's a fact that most hunter-type wardec corporations are smaller than the targets they go after. Jamming every single enemy in such a scenario is entirely palusible. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1326	Posted - 2015.04.21 10:56:49 - [145] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it. Hi Dracvlad, I understand you are happy to see someone who posted something that might lean on your thoughts about our game. Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions. - What is your alternative to wardecs? - Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence? And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2862	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:01:09 - [146] - Quote Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it. Hi Dracvlad, I understand you are happy to see someone who posted something that might lean on your thoughts about our game. Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions. - What is your alternative to wardecs? - Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence? And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7. D. I don't even know why you ask these people these things. They'll give you the same "I want what's best for the game" spiel every single time, without actually putting out a concrete viewpoint on the matter. But I can tell you that I've infiltrated a significant number of carebear corporations, posed these questions to them while passing myself off as one of the chums, and got exactly the kind of answers you'd expect. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
bonkerss MASS A DEATH Mordus Angels 8	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:02:04 - [147] - Quote as a 0.0 dweller i do not understand your problem. i live in a environment where we are outnumbered probably 1:300 on a daily basis. having constant wardecs from jita 4-4 gank groups. we have no peace, wherever i go i face hostiles. but **** hell its fun! just let me tell you this: its easy to avoid pvp in higsec where you dont have to fear samrtbombing carriers, hotdrops and bubbles.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 787	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:14:42 - [148] - Quote Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it. Hi Dracvlad, I understand you are happy to see someone who posted something that might lean on your thoughts about our game. Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions. - What is your alternative to wardecs? - Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence? And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7. D. Hi Danelee, Actually the main issue is to have something to fight over, which is what I suggested in my first post in this thread, I think the new structures as proposed will change this so people have something useful to fight over. You guys should be very excited over that, think that through, because its exciting to me. The whole argument about people dropping corps and evading is irrelevent, because those that have skin in the game will have to defend it, perhaps then your scatter gun approach is no longer needed and then you will stop whining about it. The only issue you will have is that the people who don't want to and can't fight will be able to have no skin in the game and will re-create their corp, so what. I reject your premise, there are always consequences in Eve and rightly so, and in any case if there was no war decs people would still gank and that is something that has a whole sub culture around it, epic fights around a bumped freighter. Mean, well actually incorrect, first check out my killboard, I do have one you know, SISI is not playing against other people, its wiped out, its meaningless. My fun in this game is to play regardless of people trying to stop me, yesterday in spite of a war dec from you I went and helped save a freighter from the Goons, we won, I was waiting for one of your chaps to come along and I would have gone for him, but no show. I am still in corp, still moving around in hisec and neither your alliance or Foresaken have killed me, gold star when you do... Ella's Snack bar
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20726	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:17:46 - [149] - Quote Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it. Hi Dracvlad, I understand you are happy to see someone who posted something that might lean on your thoughts about our game. Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions. - What is your alternative to wardecs? - Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence? And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7. D. leans head on your shoulder More posts like these are needed so badly. Well done! "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 787	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:21:45 - [150] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it. Hi Dracvlad, I understand you are happy to see someone who posted something that might lean on your thoughts about our game. Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions. - What is your alternative to wardecs? - Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence? And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7. D. I don't even know why you ask these people these things. They'll give you the same "I want what's best for the game" spiel every single time, without actually putting out a concrete viewpoint on the matter. But I can tell you that I've infiltrated a significant number of carebear corporations, posed these questions to them while passing myself off as one of the chums, and got exactly the kind of answer you'd expect. Well you are a legend in your own lunchtime, Eve is the easiest game to infiltrate other entities,its so easy I have zero respect for anyone who does it as all you need to do is buy an existing toon on a clean account and your golden, rather like the OP in fact... The answer is simply that some people find it too much fun taking candy from babies, it makes their self worth greater, I on the other hand have always played this game against enemies who are more numerous and better equipped then me and that I have thrived and survived is all I need to say in return to you, my killboard speaks for itself... Ella's Snack bar

afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1085	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:22:46 - [151] - Quote Danalee wrote: Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions. - What is your alternative to wardecs? - Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence? And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7. D. I'll play :) In reverse order It not possible to farm with no risk (suicide gankers, LP crashes, market crashes, ship loss to name a few things present in high sec) - but risk can be thoroughly mitigated to a point, as is true in all areas of space. Wardec alternate depends. The reason for this is.... PvP does not start and end at the barrel of a gun. So my question to the floor is - what are you wardeccing FOR? For example, is it to inflict ship loss? Ganking is inarguably going to be more effective in that instance. Wardecs are a solution to certain set of problems - maybe you want to bash a pos, or disrupt indy corps by making them tear down and wait a week to start up, maybe something else. They are not, however, the solution to all problems. So what is the problem you're trying to solve, is a wardec the best option or are there other, more effective methods of PvP available to you to solve that problem? tl;dr: Are people picking the right tool for the job, or does everything look like a nail as you have a hammer?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 787	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:23:04 - [152] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it. Hi Dracvlad, I understand you are happy to see someone who posted something that might lean on your thoughts about our game. Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions. - What is your alternative to wardecs? - Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence? And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7. D. leans head on your shoulder More posts like these are needed so badly. Well done! That's because you like echo chambers... Ella's Snack bar
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1328	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:26:38 - [153] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Actually the main issue is to have something to fight over, which is what I suggested in my first post in this thread, I think the new structures as proposed will change this so people have something useful to fight over. You guys should be very excited over that, think that through, because its exciting to me. The whole argument about people dropping corps and evading is irrelevent, because those that have skin in the game will have to defend it, perhaps then your scatter gun approach is no longer needed and then you will stop whining about it. The only issue you will have is that the people who don't want to and can't fight will be able to have no skin in the game and will re-create their corp, so what. Why be in a corp at all if not to have something to fight for? Taxes, structures, social cohesion, a name for yourself, a reputation, etc.. People dropping corp in a hearthbeat is hardly irrelevant, it's broken beyond belief. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth, I haven't spoken out for or against what you call 'shotgun approach' let alone whined about it. Dracvlad wrote: I reject your premise, there are always consequences in Eve and rightly so, and in any case if there was no war decs people would still gank and that is something that has a whole sub culture around it, epic fights around a bumped freighter. So you propose a buff to ganking instead to compensate the lack of other risks? Please elaborate. Dracvlad wrote: Mean, well actually incorrect, first check out my killboard, I do have one you know, SISI is not playing against other people, its wiped out, its meaningless. My fun in this game is to play regardless of people trying to stop me, yesterday in spit of a war dec from you I went and helped save a freighter from the Goons, we won, I was waiting for one of your chaps to come along and I would have gone for him, but no show. I am still in corp, still moving around in hisec and neither your alliance or Foresaken have killed me, gold star when you do... What you are saying is you don't play on sisi because it's meaningless? The fact that no other players are there to try and interfere with your group makes it bland and boring, worthless even? Good on you for mocking the big bad mercs; Now go and spread that message of defiance to the others instead of crying/whining(?) for nerfs! D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20732	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:28:33 - [154] - Quote Responsebait oneliners which only serve the poster himself ... ... and have no other purpose than making the other one respond ... ... and don't add anything for clearing things up or adding information ... ... should be punished with a warning and then a permaban. You aren't legit. nothing more to say about this. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2865	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:33:05 - [155] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Well you are a legend in your own lunchtime, Eve is the easiest game to infiltrate other entities,its so easy I have zero respect for anyone who does it as all you need to do is buy an existing toon on a clean account and your golden, rather like the OP in fact... The answer is simply that some people find it too much fun taking candy from babies, it makes their self worth greater, I on the other hand have always played this game against enemies who are more numerous and better equipped then me and that I have thrived and survived is all I need to say in return to you, my killboard speaks for itself... Well if you know how legendary I am, then you should also know that I do this for the entertainment (drama), and to see whether or not I can turn a particular corporation around by steering it towards a modicum of efficiency. The fact that you feel the need to bring your killboard into this shows just how insecure you feel about your place in this entire debate. But you know what? I'm not going to go down this path. Instead, I will tell you that you're right; I do find it a lot of fun taking candy from babies. Now you need tell me why I shouldn't be able to do this in the game called EVE Online. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2150	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:33:33 - [156] - Quote Oh look a disdainful carebear on its high horse. How terribly new and interesting. I sure do expect for it to have lots of interesting ideas about how to improve the game.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20732	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:36:02 - [157] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well you are a legend in your own lunchtime, Eve is the easiest game to infiltrate other entities,its so easy I have zero respect for anyone who does it as all you need to do is buy an existing toon on a clean account and your golden, rather like the OP in fact... The answer is simply that some people find it too much fun taking candy from babies, it makes their self worth greater, I on the other hand have always played this game against enemies who are more numerous and better equipped then me and that I have thrived and survived is all I need to say in return to you, my killboard speaks for itself... Well if you know how legendary I am, then you should also know that I do this for the entertainment (drama), and to see whether or not I can turn a particular corporation around by steering it towards a modicum of efficiency. The fact that you feel the need to bring your killboard into this shows just how insecure you feel about your place in this entire debate. But you know what? I'm not going to go down this path. Instead, I will tell you that you're right; I do find it a lot of fun taking candy from babies. Now you need tell me why I shouldn't be able to do this in the game called EVE Online. Relevant side question: How often does it happen you recruit people this way? Like pulling them out of the corp, to your own? I understand that it can be hard to notice yet locked up potential. "Recruiting by shooting" works, so this might as well. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20735	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:37:33 - [158] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Oh look a disdainful carebear on its high horse. How terribly new and interesting. I sure do expect for it to have lots of interesting ideas about how to improve the game. Vimsy. Response baiting oneliners. Please don't. You do as they do, which only makes it worse. Thanks! :) "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 787	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:41:02 - [159] - Quote Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Actually the main issue is to have something to fight over, which is what I suggested in my first post in this thread, I think the new structures as proposed will change this so people have something useful to fight over. You guys should be very excited over that, think that through, because its exciting to me. The whole argument about people dropping corps and evading is irrelevent, because those that have skin in the game will have to defend it, perhaps then your scatter gun approach is no longer needed and then you will stop whining about it. The only issue you will have is that the people who don't want to and can't fight will be able to have no skin in the game and will re-create their corp, so what. Why be in a corp at all if not to have something to fight for? Taxes, structures, social cohesion, a name for yourself, a reputation, etc.. People dropping corp in a hearthbeat is hardly irrelevant, it's broken beyond belief. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth, I haven't spoken out for or against what you call 'shotgun approach' let alone whined about it. Dracvlad wrote: I reject your premise, there are always consequences in Eve and rightly so, and in any case if there was no war decs people would still gank and that is something that has a whole sub culture around it, epic fights around a bumped freighter. So you propose a buff to ganking instead to compensate the lack of other risks? Please elaborate. Dracvlad wrote: Mean, well actually incorrect, first check out my killboard, I do have one you know, SISI is not playing against other people, its wiped out, its meaningless. My fun in this game is to play regardless of people trying to stop me, yesterday in spit of a war dec from you I went and helped save a freighter from the Goons, we won, I was waiting for one of your chaps to come along and I would have gone for him, but no show. I am still in corp, still moving around in hisec and neither your alliance or Foresaken have killed me, gold star when you do... What you are saying is you don't play on sisi because it's meaningless? The fact that no other players are there to try and interfere with your group makes it bland and boring, worthless even? Good on you for mocking the big bad mercs; Now go and spread that message of defianec to the others instead of crying/whining(?) for nerfs! D. Is the bear thing supposed to annoy me, works not at all, after all I have killed stuff and died in game, I take risks and can afford to do so. First of all in terms of your comments about being in a corp, the things you talk about do not matter to the people you mainly war dec, they have no skin in your game and CCP is right to allow these people to re-create their corps to lose a war dec, must annoy the hell out of all thgose one man spoiler corps that used to do spoiling war decs all the time. The changes to structures means that they will be worth putting up in hisec and will be a big target for people who want to fight, much better than a POS. Mine is still standing by the way, please come and blow it up!!! Ganking lacks real consequences, however I think it is perfectly OK and adds to the game, I have enjoyed engaging against the Goons to stop them from destroying hisec markets and industry. Where have I called for nerfs, I think the re-creation of corps is a balance against one man spoiling war decs and scatter gun war decs. Perfect balance in fact, but I have seen you complain about this corp re-creation and people leaving corp, you did it here by saying it is broken, it is not, if you lock people in a corp while there is a war dec then that is broken, for example people in my corp might find me a pompous windbag and want to leave and you would force them to stay? Defience, defience against camping hubs, I use an out of corp alt, using pipes he does that too, well I cannot go hit the gankers in Mad at this point, but that is just one of those things, but the person I was going after is now in Uedama, so objective achieved. Ella's Snack bar
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2868	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:42:13 - [160] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well you are a legend in your own lunchtime, Eve is the easiest game to infiltrate other entities,its so easy I have zero respect for anyone who does it as all you need to do is buy an existing toon on a clean account and your golden, rather like the OP in fact... The answer is simply that some people find it too much fun taking candy from babies, it makes their self worth greater, I on the other hand have always played this game against enemies who are more numerous and better equipped then me and that I have thrived and survived is all I need to say in return to you, my killboard speaks for itself... Well if you know how legendary I am, then you should also know that I do this for the entertainment (drama), and to see whether or not I can turn a particular corporation around by steering it towards a modicum of efficiency. The fact that you feel the need to bring your killboard into this shows just how insecure you feel about your place in this entire debate. But you know what? I'm not going to go down this path. Instead, I will tell you that you're right; I do find it a lot of fun taking candy from babies. Now you need tell me why I shouldn't be able to do this in the game called EVE Online. Relevant side question: How often does it happen you recruit people this way? Like pulling them out of the corp, to your own? I understand that it can be hard to notice yet locked up potential. "Recruiting by shooting" works, so this might as well. Rarely, but it has happened. I tend to play with a close group of friends anyway, so there isn't much room for recruitment. At the very least, I tend to give lots of practical advice to the people on the point ends of my guns, but I have to say that very few take it. Half wish cancer on my family, and another forty percent simply ignore it. Most players simply can't get over their pixels getting blown up, and hate you forever. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 787	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:42:21 - [161] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Responsebait oneliners which only serve the poster himself ... ... and have no other purpose than making the other one respond ... ... and don't add anything for clearing things up or adding information ... ... should be punished with a warning and then a permaban. You aren't legit. nothing more to say about this. Says the person who did the OP troll post... Ella's Snack bar
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1085	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:45:21 - [162] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: afkalt wrote: So my question to the floor is - what are you wardeccing FOR? This is a good question. My answer: to extract a ransom/maintain a protection racket, or as part of a mercenary contract in which someone else hired me to conduct a war for any reason (I don't ask). Thank you :) Setting aside merc work as that question should be posed of the hiring unit. The former will very much against some corps, for other people I rather suspect repeatedly suicide ganking until they pay you is the way forward there (actually there's probably a lot of money in that) - I'm thinking here NPC bears doing missions etc.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2870	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:49:02 - [163] - Quote afkalt wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: afkalt wrote: So my question to the floor is - what are you wardeccing FOR? This is a good question. My answer: to extract a ransom/maintain a protection racket, or as part of a mercenary contract in which someone else hired me to conduct a war for any reason (I don't ask). Thank you :) Setting aside merc work as that question should be posed of the hiring unit. The former will very much against some corps, for other people I rather suspect repeatedly suicide ganking until they pay you is the way forward there (actually there's probably a lot of money in that) - I'm thinking here NPC bears doing missions etc. You can actually ransom freighters with the threat of a gank while bumping them. Aside from that, wars get the message across quicker than ganking does. Ganking is useful for showing someone that you mean business even if they choose to corp-hop or dissolve entirely, but it's not a good opener, due to the cost factor. And a war allows me to keep the ransom relatively low, while ganking would raise it every single time due to the quick accumulation of sunk costs. Ganking is simply better for one-time profit off of a specific target. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dana Goodeye Quafe Commandos Point Blank Alliance 5	Posted - 2015.04.21 11:56:19 - [164] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Oh look a disdainful carebear on its high horse. How terribly new and interesting. I sure do expect for it to have lots of interesting ideas about how to improve the game. there are no horses in eve, you silly =D
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1088	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:01:41 - [165] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: afkalt wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: afkalt wrote: So my question to the floor is - what are you wardeccing FOR? This is a good question. My answer: to extract a ransom/maintain a protection racket, or as part of a mercenary contract in which someone else hired me to conduct a war for any reason (I don't ask). Thank you :) Setting aside merc work as that question should be posed of the hiring unit. The former will very much against some corps, for other people I rather suspect repeatedly suicide ganking until they pay you is the way forward there (actually there's probably a lot of money in that) - I'm thinking here NPC bears doing missions etc. You can actually ransom freighters with the threat of a gank while bumping them. Aside from that, wars get the message across quicker than ganking does. Ganking is useful for showing someone that you mean business even if they choose to corp-hop or dissolve entirely, but it's not a good opener, due to the cost factor. And a war allows me to keep the ransom relatively low, while ganking would raise it every single time due to the quick accumulation of sunk costs. Ganking is simply better for one-time profit off of a specific target. Absolutely, it depends on the target and the aim of the objective - which was my original question/point - wars are a tool in the box, but they are not always an appropriate tool for every target. Research should be done as to the most effective way to squeeze a given target with a set objective in mind. I'd not open with a gank either, after one has a suitable reputation as you said the threat of violence is often going to be enough but nor would I wardec that "one man corp", I'd go straight to a thrasher based welcome.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 884	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:06:09 - [166] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: You can actually ransom freighters with the threat of a gank while bumping them. Aside from that, wars get the message across quicker than ganking does. Ganking is useful for showing someone that you mean business even if they choose to corp-hop or dissolve entirely, but it's not a good opener, due to the cost factor. And a war allows me to keep the ransom relatively low, while ganking would raise it every single time due to the quick accumulation of sunk costs. Ganking is simply better for one-time profit off of a specific target. Ganking is good for overloaded/overfit ships, and to make a point to a specific person as you say, but should not be the preferred PvP mechanism in highsec. Wardecs are good as, at least in theory they target the earning potential of the character, while still allowing the player to drop out of the war to the NPC corp if they had enough. They encourage PvPers to go after the organization, not a specific person to allow conflict to take place between groups in highsec, ideally over resources. If I followed a person around and continually ganked them I would quickly run into the harassment rules of CCP, even if I claimed I was just looking for a ransom. Having a condition - being in a player corp - that signals I am seeking increased reward in exchange for the risk of a wardec is better game design as I can withdraw that consent by dropping to the NPC corp (and forgoing the increased reward) at any time. This is why both wardecs and the value of being in a player corp should be strengthened so meaningful conflict over increased rewards can take place. Relying on ganking, which has already been made quite costly in recent years, as the only PvP mechanism in highsec is not desirable or good game design. Hopefully the new structures will provide that benefit to players and make corps worth fighting for.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2874	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:12:03 - [167] - Quote afkalt wrote: Absolutely, it depends on the target and the aim of the objective - which was my original question/point - wars are a tool in the box, but they are not always an appropriate tool for every target. Research should be done as to the most effective way to squeeze a given target with a set objective in mind. I'd not open with a gank either, after one has a suitable reputation as you said the threat of violence is often going to be enough but nor would I wardec that "one man corp", I'd go straight to a thrasher based welcome. The problem is that CCP keeps taking these tools out of the box, and now we're left with just two: wars and ganking. We used to have stuff like the lofty, the awox, can-baiting, tricking someone into shooting you and then getting CONCORDed, remote assistance suicide-assassinations, etc etc. And then CCP implemented aggro transfer restrictions to prevent the lofty, a "friendly fire" toggle to prevent the awox, a safety that prevents someone from being tricked into shooting you, automatic shutoff for modules in case of aggression, etc etc. We're down to exactly two methods of killing someone in high-sec that the victim can't nullify by flipping a switch. That's saying a lot. Just two more nerfs, I guess. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Valedictio Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 35	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:19:16 - [168] - Quote ok I will try to be constructive and on topic. Hi-Sec War Decs are Broken ? Not from what I can see, if an agressor targets a corps and that corps disbands to go elsewhere isn't that a victory of sorts for the aggressor ? Unless a player corps has tangible assets that are vulnerable to an attacker then I can see no real reason other than a personal grievance for declaring against a corps. War Dec Mechanics as far as I can tell work as intended ( I am no expert ), If an Aggressor finds something vulnerable and engages it then the Defender has the option to either Defend or Lose that asset. Dropping corps or Docking up is simply the most isk efficient way of avoiding a fight that you feel you have no chance of winning, I haven't met many leet pvper who would willingly go into a fight they know they would lose, Have you ? This is a sandbox at the end of the day, there is no 'way it is meant to be played'. We have our set of rules to the box and we all play within them, how you play is up to you, complaining how others do is indicitive of the type of person you are. Personally I am rather garbage at solo/small gang pvp but make a rather good f1 bunny ( I keep my mouth shut and do exactly what I'm told to ), however I like the indy playstyle with a fully skilled inventor, max skilled boosters etc etc. To sum it all up. War Decs are not broken if they are used for an intended purpose, Disbandment, Disruption, Destruction (In space assets), the problem with them only occurs if they are being used to grief an individual or farm easy kills when the target doesn't comply. Oh and for a certain individual, the game is not all about loss, to me it is all about me enjoying myself. and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium. Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON'
Ned Thomas Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 1617	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:21:00 - [169] - Quote Is this thread noticeably different than any other weekly weakling whine thread? Don't get lost alone - Join Signal Cartel, New Eden's premier haven for explorers! Onward to Thera with Eve Scout
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 787	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:21:58 - [170] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: afkalt wrote: Absolutely, it depends on the target and the aim of the objective - which was my original question/point - wars are a tool in the box, but they are not always an appropriate tool for every target. Research should be done as to the most effective way to squeeze a given target with a set objective in mind. I'd not open with a gank either, after one has a suitable reputation as you said the threat of violence is often going to be enough but nor would I wardec that "one man corp", I'd go straight to a thrasher based welcome. The problem is that CCP keeps taking these tools out of the box, and now we're left with just two: wars and ganking. We used to have stuff like the lofty, the awox, can-baiting, tricking someone into shooting you and then getting CONCORDed, remote assistance suicide-assassinations, etc etc. And then CCP implemented aggro transfer restrictions to prevent the lofty, a "friendly fire" toggle to prevent the awox, a safety that prevents someone from being tricked into shooting you, automatic shutoff for modules in case of aggression, etc etc. We're down to exactly two methods of killing someone in high-sec that the victim can't nullify by flipping a switch. That's saying a lot. Just two more nerfs, I guess. That was really a big whine there. Lofty, don't know that one, but awoxing you can still do, lowsec and nullsec, can flipping has been replaced by suspect baiting and some people do it very well, like the guy in Osmon using a Fenrir. In affect all the changes have done is forced people like you to up your game and take more risk, you do not like it do you? invulnerable RR, was one of the reasons why so many people decided not to fight war dec's, its so much better now, we have people out of corp in fleet waiting to jump them, you don't like that do you. Ganking has only got more expensive in terms of the fact that some ships were given a slightly better tank, CCP finely worked out on balance. The dropping from corp, or recreation of corps was to get away from the large number of one man war dec corps that did nothing for the whole war dec, and yet you blame the carebears for your own folly. At least the people I knew in the Orphanage did not have your attitude... Ella's Snack bar

Aoife Fraoch Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 38	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:22:32 - [171] - Quote The interesting thing about this discussion whenever it shows up is it always seems to focus on the individual player. You know, there must be player lose because space reasons, aggression should follow players because space reasons, etc. The problem is that the player can always avoid the dec. even if the game won't allow them to drop corp, they can always simply choose not to play, and no HTFU or space honor argument can change this. At least to me, it seems better to focus on giving corps a better reason to exist, like impose a concord tax to corps that drops over a slightly less than trivia period of time or is tied to a structure in space. Corp own structures for other benefits is another reason. No-one is going to leave their PVE comfort zone to defend a corp hanger, name and channel, and players can and will always avoid conflict they see no gain from. Expecting this to change is not productive.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2875	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:22:44 - [172] - Quote Valedictio wrote: Oh and for a certain individual, the game is not all about loss, to me it is all about me enjoying myself. You just said that you like your "indy playstyle." Would you be able to enjoy yourself if there was no demand for the items you produce? I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1329	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:25:33 - [173] - Quote Valedictio wrote: To sum it all up. War Decs are not broken if they are used for an intended purpose, Disbandment, Disruption, Destruction (In space assets), the problem with them only occurs if they are being used to grief an individual or farm easy kills when the target doesn't comply. Allmost there. Doesn't compute just yet. Griefing and wars don't match. They have nothing to do with each other. Farming easy kills doesn't exists. Everyone is an easy kill if they allow it. Case in point: minute-old-newbie is not an easy kill pers+¬. And even than, they are protected by not being in a corp from the get-go and agreements on not messing with noobs in the noob systems. They join a corp and move out? No longer are they easy targets because they are in a fricking corp. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1088	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:30:57 - [174] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: afkalt wrote: Absolutely, it depends on the target and the aim of the objective - which was my original question/point - wars are a tool in the box, but they are not always an appropriate tool for every target. Research should be done as to the most effective way to squeeze a given target with a set objective in mind. I'd not open with a gank either, after one has a suitable reputation as you said the threat of violence is often going to be enough but nor would I wardec that "one man corp", I'd go straight to a thrasher based welcome. The problem is that CCP keeps taking these tools out of the box, and now we're left with just two: wars and ganking. We used to have stuff like the lofty, the awox, can-baiting, tricking someone into shooting you and then getting CONCORDed, remote assistance suicide-assassinations, etc etc. And then CCP implemented aggro transfer restrictions to prevent the lofty, a "friendly fire" toggle to prevent the awox, a safety that prevents someone from being tricked into shooting you, automatic shutoff for modules in case of aggression, etc etc. We're down to exactly two methods of killing someone in high-sec that the victim can't nullify by flipping a switch. That's saying a lot. Just two more nerfs, I guess. There are still various options, mainly around suspect and killright baiting but generally I tend to agree, although I'd say the trend is towards making it harder to trick people as opposed to wrecking opportunities for decent fights or to inflict pressure on enemy corps as a whole. I don't think all is lost however, as the decent hyperdunking (who came up with that by way, worst name ever) ruling shows.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2877	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:31:29 - [175] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lofty, don't know that one, but awoxing you can still do, lowsec and nullsec, can flipping has been replaced by suspect baiting and some people do it very well, like the guy in Osmon using a Fenrir. In affect all the changes have done is forced people like you to up your game and take more risk, you do not like it do you? invulnerable RR, was one of the reasons why so many people decided not to fight war dec's, its so much better now, we have people out of corp in fleet waiting to jump them, you don't like that do you. Ganking has only got more expensive in terms of the fact that some ships were given a slightly better tank, CCP finely worked out on balance. The dropping from corp, or recreation of corps was to get away from the large number of one man war dec corps that did nothing for the whole war dec, and yet you blame the carebears for your own folly. At least the people I knew in the Orphanage did not have your attitude... - You can do anything in low-sec and null-sec. But we're not discussing low-sec and null-sec here. - Suspect baiting is great and all, but still completely nullified by the safety setting. - I like risk, but I also like fairness. Pirate players should be treated as fairly as any others, within the confines of the game's environment. Telling pirate players that they should have all the risk just because they support the concept of it is unfair and inane. - I never brought up invulnerable RR as a point of contention. This was actually a good change. - Ganking got more expensive because most industrial ships got EHP increases in the hundreds of percentage points ranges, and because insurance was removed for losses to CONCORD. - If the one-map corp aggressors do nothing for the duration of the war, then why do the "victims" even have to disband? I don't follow here. - I was in The Orphanage. - You're trying too hard with those yappy-dog heel bites of "you don't like that, do you?" stuff. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1088	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:36:24 - [176] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: - Suspect baiting is great and all, but still completely nullified by the safety setting. It's not - what at least I and (I assume) he meant is people sit in (often) haulers whilst flashy yellow. However a swift dscan will (typically) reveal: boosting T3, orca and 2-3 logistic ships on short scan Other variations are suspects having their buddies shoot them in a shiny ship to make it look as though everyone is dogpiling to draw people in looking to ***** on the kill. And so forth.
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1331	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:39:46 - [177] - Quote To the OP: If you care to try again, I offer consultancy for your new corp. For free. Send me an in game mail and I will assist in making it work for you in hisec. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2878	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:41:52 - [178] - Quote Danalee wrote: To the OP: If you care to try again, I offer consultancy for your new corp. For free. Send me an in game mail and I will assist in making it work for you in hisec. D. This is extremely noble, and there was a time that I wasn't so cynical as to believe it's futile. But a player like the OP, who's "done everything," doesn't seem like the type of person who's receptive to advice. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5350	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:46:30 - [179] - Quote Danalee wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: Danalee wrote: Do you think it's OK for large non PVP organisations to exist and be allowed to farm isk 24/7 freely and without consequence? Also, do you think this situation would be good for the game and it's economy? I think it's irrelevant, because the same people currently farm isk 24/7 with little effect on the economy, they simply do it from 1 man alt corps or NPC corps. I think that allowing them to exist under a united banner would be healthier for the social elements of the game which we know improves player retention. Personally I'd like to see wardecs as they currently stand removed and alternate methods of attacking corps and their income streams which are profitable for the aggressors to be added which aren't simply a "turn off concord" mechanic. Ok Lucas, that puts your point in perspective. As long as their is no alternative, don't you agree we need to keep wardecs as they are and maybe even think about the social corps combined with strict limits on NPC corps? D. Yeah, there definitely needs to be at least the start of a replacement. I don't think there should be any more imposed limits on NPC corps however. I'd like to see people opt to move into player corps rather than be pushed, and feel that forcing people out of NPC corps would only push them into solo player corps, which is arguably worse as they then have zero interaction rather than the limited interaction they have though NPC corp chat now. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Dana Goodeye Quafe Commandos Point Blank Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:46:53 - [180] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: You just said that you like your "indy playstyle." Would you be able to enjoy yourself if there was no demand for the items you produce? do you want to tell that, the hisec indies generates the most of the demand of ships/mods? im pretty sure, the hisec gankers, the losec/nullsec pvpers/ratters buying a lot more stuff than the hisec indies. i mean if an indi pilot buy something, its usually for build more stuff. if a pvper buys something, you can be sure, at least eve will lose one ship at minimum in a short time =D pvpers makes the demands on the market, the indies fulfill them, the traders are exploit booth parties =D i think we should do something to be able to gank station traders =P oh... btw the only way to nullfy or what the suspect baiting is not shooting it, or killing it. you can do booth on green safety you know :)

Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2878	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:50:59 - [181] - Quote Dana Goodeye wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: You just said that you like your "indy playstyle." Would you be able to enjoy yourself if there was no demand for the items you produce? do you want to tell that, the hisec indies generates the most of the demand of ships/mods? im pretty sure, the hisec gankers, the losec/nullsec pvpers/ratters buying a lot more stuff than the hisec indies. i mean if an indi pilot buy something, its usually for build more stuff. if a pvper buys something, you can be sure, at least eve will lose one ship at minimum in a short time =D pvpers makes the demands on the market, the indies fulfill them, the traders are exploit booth parties =D i think we should do something to be able to gank station traders =P Once again, according to data provided by CCP throughout the years, the majority of pvp losses by value happen in high-sec. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf Page 36. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 787	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:51:05 - [182] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Lofty, don't know that one, but awoxing you can still do, lowsec and nullsec, can flipping has been replaced by suspect baiting and some people do it very well, like the guy in Osmon using a Fenrir. In affect all the changes have done is forced people like you to up your game and take more risk, you do not like it do you? invulnerable RR, was one of the reasons why so many people decided not to fight war dec's, its so much better now, we have people out of corp in fleet waiting to jump them, you don't like that do you. Ganking has only got more expensive in terms of the fact that some ships were given a slightly better tank, CCP finely worked out on balance. The dropping from corp, or recreation of corps was to get away from the large number of one man war dec corps that did nothing for the whole war dec, and yet you blame the carebears for your own folly. At least the people I knew in the Orphanage did not have your attitude... - You can do anything in low-sec and null-sec. But we're not discussing low-sec and null-sec here. - Suspect baiting is great and all, but still completely nullified by the safety setting. - I like risk, but I also like fairness. Pirate players should be treated as fairly as any others, within the confines of the game's environment. Telling pirate players that they should have all the risk just because they support the concept of it is unfair and inane. - I never brought up invulnerable RR as a point of contention. This was actually a good change. - Ganking got more expensive because most industrial ships got EHP increases in the hundreds of percentage points ranges, and because insurance was removed for losses to CONCORD. - If the one-man corp aggressors do nothing for the duration of a war, then why do the "victims" even have to disband? I don't follow here. - I was in The Orphanage. - You're trying too hard with those yappy-dog heel bites of "you don't like that, do you?" stuff. AWOX well you can still do it in nullsec, lowsec and hisec if left to legal and there are valid reasons to do so. Suspect baiting is better than can flipping, the only issue is that you end up people going for it who can fight, not some sap who can't. You said remote assistance, which I assumed to mean RR, glad you agree that it is better. Piracy is taking a risk, some of the people in my corp did piracy at the start of Eve. The one man corps were there to spoil the game, trapping them in a week or longer of war decs and did nothing, now people can stick two fingers up at them easily and I think that is a good thing. Seriously, many players are just into no risk PvP, which is certainly true of people that can flip, or use the mechanics to get a fight, take those people who get mission runners to aggress, there is no risk, if they start to lose they can get out as the mission ship has no point, and in any case most mission ships are set for specific resists and are mainly BS in which getting under the guns is a win win. So take exception with my pointing out that people don't like more risk by finding it more difficult to trick people who can't fight and end up with those that want to, truth does hurt. The insurance removal and increased tanks were needed for balance reasons, I believe that there should be additional docking repercussions with criminal acts, but am happy to leave it as is. I was not in the Orphanage, but one of the founders of that alliance was in my corp at one point,l he left Eve because it was made too easy to kill things as he put it, Eve was made for the playstation generation, he used to enjoy the long hunt, most Eve players don't they want it easy... Ella's Snack bar
Valedictio Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 35	Posted - 2015.04.21 12:51:07 - [183] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Valedictio wrote: Oh and for a certain individual, the game is not all about loss, to me it is all about me enjoying myself. You just said that you like your "indy playstyle." Would you be able to enjoy yourself if there was no demand for the items you produce? Naturally I would. What that has to do with war decs ? not so sure maybe piecemeal quoting would work better if you had added in the fact that Indy is not the only thing I do, I have even tried Freighter ganking (My Bad) mild buzz after zipping around between safes because the navy were trying to shoot me, arrived to late to shoot the freighter, then shot by faction. I have also successfully managed to warp into a red fleet solo ( after the fleet warped off ) and yelling banzai to myself shoot at the nearest target for the few seconds before my ship assploded. My POD however survived ( That made me smile ). Some things will make me happy, some things are meh. I still have my first golem way before bastion mods, doesn't mean I use it. Eve gives me memorable moments and makes me smile, that is what I want from a game the highs and the lows. and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium. Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON'
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5351	Posted - 2015.04.21 13:00:25 - [184] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Here you go buddy: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19881 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249 The rabbit hole goes deeper if you ask Google. Plenty of dev posts on the old EVE forums. Now you can tell me how "this isn't proof of anything," et cetera. I'm familiar with your runaround. Well in the first one, he's talking about dec shields which were declared an exploit at one time. No mention is made of corp recycling. The second link is actually more telling. For corp recycling it states "Not an exploit" while under corp hopping it states "No longer an exploit", which tells me that corp recycling wasn't considered an exploit before and still isn't. You can try to accuse me of whatever you want, but the facts remain that at no point have I see any mention of closing and reopening a corp being an exploit other than from players claiming it is. Destiny Corrupted wrote: - If they lose too much by defending, then it's obvious that their operations are too bloated. Any amount of wealth has to have a corresponding, proportional amount of protection. If folding up is the most economical option, then that's just fine. But I don't think it's fine for a corporation to strip-mine all the belts and hog all the moons and then claim that it's too easy for it to be attacked. Not really, in fact quite the opposite. The smaller the corp is, the more likely it is going to cost more to defend than simply recreate the corp. PvE activities gain very little benefit from being in a corp, which is why there's no large scale PvE corps in highsec, with or without protection. Destiny Corrupted wrote: - The main wardec corps aren't going to care about a dozen Blackbirds because they never leave the main hubs. Other wadec corps will care, because a dozen Blackbirds is a massive nuisance. It's a fact that most hunter-type wardec corporations are smaller than the targets they go after. Jamming every single enemy in such a scenario is entirely plausible. That really depends on the wardeccer. Marmite might hang around in Jita, but other wardeccers don't do just that. And a half awake serious PvP corp would have ships and fits to count mass ECM. ECM is not an "I win" button. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 4412	Posted - 2015.04.21 13:06:48 - [185] - Quote Thread temporarily locked for some cleaning. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2878	Posted - 2015.04.21 13:41:05 - [186] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Well in the first one, he's talking about dec shields which were declared an exploit at one time. No mention is made of corp recycling. The second link is actually more telling. For corp recycling it states "Not an exploit" while under corp hopping it states "No longer an exploit", which tells me that corp recycling wasn't considered an exploit before and still isn't. You can try to accuse me of whatever you want, but the facts remain that at no point have I see any mention of closing and reopening a corp being an exploit other than from players claiming it is. The consistency of someone's language is open to interpretation. As someone who busted a rage nut during the period of time when those debates were taking place, I'm pretty sure that our claims have merit. You have to understand though that the pages with rules in them have long been deleted or edited, so all we have to go by is word of mouth and forum records. The latter are still there, or at least some of them are, but I don't want to spend my time on a deep search to try to find specific posts by the management. We actually filed petitions about all the corp scrubbing that was going on, and had to stop right when those changes were announced/Dec Shield came around. Lucas Kell wrote: Not really, in fact quite the opposite. The smaller the corp is, the more likely it is going to cost more to defend than simply recreate the corp. PvE activities gain very little benefit from being in a corp, which is why there's no large scale PvE corps in highsec, with or without protection. The problem lies in a lack of economical sense of the average EVE player, because after all, we're still all derpy teenagers playing our "video entertainment toys." The lack of protection in pve corporations, both large in small, is rooted in the greed and lack of foresight of the players who populate them. Would it cost a lot to keep players like myself on staff for security? Yeah, but there would be actual results. But no, the average bear wants all the money for himself, not just some. And seeing as how there aren't any penalties for re-rolling corporations, of course it makes sense to do this instead of paying for actual, tangible protection. I don't blame them for doing this, but it shouldn't be the case. Bringing up the cost of corporation creation to match that of starting a war would be a good first step toward fixing the problem, and raising NPC corp taxes would be a good second one. Unfortunately, there's no other way to solve this issue aside from hard nerfs that put a price on safety. Pirates have been eating such hard nerfs for many, many years now, so perhaps it's time our industrious counterparts took one for the team as well. Lucas Kell wrote: That really depends on the wardeccer. Marmite might hang around in Jita, but other wardeccers don't do just that. And a half awake serious PvP corp would have ships and fits to count mass ECM. ECM is not an "I win" button. It's just one example. Am I going to have to post one for every single tactical doctrine I can think of? There are multiple forms of e-war that are very quick and easy to spec into, and all of them scale really well with numbers, which means that the defenders usually have an inherent advantage. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Jenshae Chiroptera 1372	Posted - 2015.04.21 13:53:10 - [187] - Quote War Decs aren't broken. The value of corporations and tools to get help are missing. (I have written about this and one way to change it) CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Memphis Baas 309	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:02:49 - [188] - Quote I also see an issue with the fact that the wardec itself isn't a contract (has no UI-enforced secure transaction capability). You pay the extortion money and the war can continue. I'd prefer to see the wardec system get changed to be contract-like, with a clear duration and clear win conditions (you pay x amount, or you provide x items or ships) as decided by the entity that declares the war, of course. Like an item exchange contract for the win (or for surrendering). With the war being instantly invalidated if the contract terms are paid, and not possible to declare the same war again for a while afterwards.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5351	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:07:29 - [189] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: The consistency of someone's language is open to interpretation. As someone who busted a rage nut during the period of time when those debates were taking place, I'm pretty sure that our claims have merit. You have to understand though that the pages with rules in them have long been deleted or edited, so all we have to go by is word of mouth and forum records. The latter are still there, or at least some of them are, but I don't want to spend my time on a deep search to try to find specific posts by the management. Well I've been playing since 2005 and I don't ever remember a time when corp recycling was an exploit. This isn't the first time I've asked someone to provide proof of this either and as of yet nobody has been able to find anything. I myself have searched though hundreds for threads and old dev blogs and not been able to find it there either. If this were ever considered an exploit I just can't see why it would be this difficult to find a post from a dev stating it. Personally I believe it's one of those things that one person has stated, has caught on and has just become uncontested fact. Destiny Corrupted wrote: The problem lies in a lack of economical sense of the average EVE player, because after all, we're still all derpy teenagers playing our "video entertainment toys." The lack of protection in pve corporations, both large in small, is rooted in the greed and lack of foresight of the players who populate them. Would it cost a lot to keep players like myself on staff for security? Yeah, but there would be actual results. But no, the average bear wants all the money for himself, not just some. And seeing as how there aren't any penalties for re-rolling corporations, of course it makes sense to do this instead of paying for actual, tangible protection. I don't blame them for doing this, but it shouldn't be the case. Bringing up the cost of corporation creation to match that of starting a war would be a good first step toward fixing the problem, and raising NPC corp taxes would be a good second one. Paying a quarter of your income to fund a proper combat wing would make a lot more sense if the alternative would be to give up half (along with a great deal of efficiency and convenience) in order to stay in an NPC corporation. Unfortunately, there's no other way to solve this issue aside from hard nerfs that put a price on safety. Pirates have been eating such hard nerfs for many, many years now, so perhaps it's time our industrious counterparts took one for the team as well. But it wouldn't just be a quarter. They'd pay a quarter, but when under wardec they'd be unable to do most activities in space anyway. Having a PvP wing around you does nothing against a seasoned team of dedicated PvPers who have no goal other than PvP. Besides, would you really want to play a game where you sit and watch a PvE player do PvE all day just in case a wardeccer shows up, being paid 1/4 of a highsec PvE income? Forcing players into paying huge taxes to not be mass wardecced by the wardec groups that exist would be completely unreasonable. All that would do is get a huge chunk of PvE focused players to quit. As hard as it is for you to understand, EVE is not all about shooting people. And as for the old "us pirates get so many nerf waah waah" this has been thrown out there so many times recently. Pirates have also had multiple buffs, even if you refuse to acknowledge them. Destiny Corrupted wrote: It's just one example. Am I going to have to post one for every single tactical doctrine I can think of? There are multiple forms of e-war that are very quick and easy to spec into, and all of them scale really well with numbers, which means that the defenders usually have an inherent advantage. It's irrelevant, because a group of players specifically gathered together to engage in PvP are always going to be tougher than a PvP group originating from a PvE corp. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Jenshae Chiroptera 1372	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:16:53 - [190] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: I also see an issue with the fact that the wardec itself isn't a contract (has no UI-enforced secure transaction capability). You pay the extortion money and the war can continue. I'd prefer to see the wardec system get changed to be contract-like, with a clear duration and clear win conditions (you pay x amount, or you provide x items or ships) as decided by the entity that declares the war, of course. Like an item exchange contract for the win (or for surrendering). With the war being instantly invalidated if the contract terms are paid, and not possible to declare the same war again for a while afterwards. That would be too much mechanics hand holding that will create a perception of security. Many alliances and corps work together so Marmite would extort them, then Forsaken, then Code, etc and back around until they were dry. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow Fozzie is treating a symptom.

Carrie-Anne Moss Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 54	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:29:15 - [191] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: The consistency of someone's language is open to interpretation. As someone who busted a rage nut during the period of time when those debates were taking place, I'm pretty sure that our claims have merit. You have to understand though that the pages with rules in them have long been deleted or edited, so all we have to go by is word of mouth and forum records. The latter are still there, or at least some of them are, but I don't want to spend my time on a deep search to try to find specific posts by the management. Well I've been playing since 2005 and I don't ever remember a time when corp recycling was an exploit. This isn't the first time I've asked someone to provide proof of this either and as of yet nobody has been able to find anything. I myself have searched though hundreds for threads and old dev blogs and not been able to find it there either. If this were ever considered an exploit I just can't see why it would be this difficult to find a post from a dev stating it. Personally I believe it's one of those things that one person has stated, has caught on and has just become uncontested fact. Destiny Corrupted wrote: The problem lies in a lack of economical sense of the average EVE player, because after all, we're still all derpy teenagers playing our "video entertainment toys." The lack of protection in pve corporations, both large in small, is rooted in the greed and lack of foresight of the players who populate them. Would it cost a lot to keep players like myself on staff for security? Yeah, but there would be actual results. But no, the average bear wants all the money for himself, not just some. And seeing as how there aren't any penalties for re-rolling corporations, of course it makes sense to do this instead of paying for actual, tangible protection. I don't blame them for doing this, but it shouldn't be the case. Bringing up the cost of corporation creation to match that of starting a war would be a good first step toward fixing the problem, and raising NPC corp taxes would be a good second one. Paying a quarter of your income to fund a proper combat wing would make a lot more sense if the alternative would be to give up half (along with a great deal of efficiency and convenience) in order to stay in an NPC corporation. Unfortunately, there's no other way to solve this issue aside from hard nerfs that put a price on safety. Pirates have been eating such hard nerfs for many, many years now, so perhaps it's time our industrious counterparts took one for the team as well. But it wouldn't just be a quarter. They'd pay a quarter, but when under wardec they'd be unable to do most activities in space anyway. Having a PvP wing around you does nothing against a seasoned team of dedicated PvPers who have no goal other than PvP. Besides, would you really want to play a game where you sit and watch a PvE player do PvE all day just in case a wardeccer shows up, being paid 1/4 of a highsec PvE income? Forcing players into paying huge taxes to not be mass wardecced by the wardec groups that exist would be completely unreasonable. All that would do is get a huge chunk of PvE focused players to quit. As hard as it is for you to understand, EVE is not all about shooting people. And as for the old "us pirates get so many nerf waah waah" this has been thrown out there so many times recently. Pirates have also had multiple buffs, even if you refuse to acknowledge them. Destiny Corrupted wrote: It's just one example. Am I going to have to post one for every single tactical doctrine I can think of? There are multiple forms of e-war that are very quick and easy to spec into, and all of them scale really well with numbers, which means that the defenders usually have an inherent advantage. It's irrelevant, because a group of players specifically gathered together to engage in PvP are always going to be tougher than a PvP group originating from a PvE corp. Dude you even quoted the dev in destinies linked thread, the second one. NO LONGER are the key words you dont seem to understand. That means that at a time previous to 2011, corp hopping to evade wars WERE AN EXPLOIT cuz at that point in time they became NO LONGER. Dude you type too much here to act like you dont understand what the dev ment by NO LONGER CONSIDERED
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20777	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:36:25 - [192] - Quote Quotes are messed up... Lucas... saying a group that originated from PvE and then went to PvP can not be tougher than a group that started with PvP directly ... ... is like saying these people are incapable to learn and gain practise like the others. That's not right. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Carrie-Anne Moss Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 54	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:40:12 - [193] - Quote Lucas im not sure why you are even worried about this topic you nullbear rat farming renter
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20777	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:53:33 - [194] - Quote Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Lucas im not sure why you are even worried about this topic you nullbear rat farming renter Ongoing passive aggressiveness and hatebaiting. Are you sure you want us to even talk to you? "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 787	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:56:36 - [195] - Quote Destiny Corrupted. wrote: The fact that you feel the need to bring your killboard into this shows just how insecure you feel about your place in this entire debate. I missed this little comment about my killboard, a couple of posters here made comments as if I was a carebear, my killboard indicates otherwise which is why I referred to it, if you think that is due to insecurity think again. Ella's Snack bar
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5354	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:56:51 - [196] - Quote Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Dude you even quoted the dev in destinies linked thread, the second one. NO LONGER are the key words you dont seem to understand. That means that at a time previous to 2011, corp hopping to evade wars WERE AN EXPLOIT cuz at that point in time they became NO LONGER. Dude you type too much here to act like you dont understand what the dev ment by NO LONGER CONSIDERED Corp hopping isn't what's being questioned though. What we're talking about is corp recycling - the act of deleting and recreating a corp to evade a wardec. That did not say "no longer", it simply said "not an exploit". Please though, find me the dev post stating that corp recycling is an exploit. I'd like to know the answer one way or the other for certain. As it stand there's absolutely no proof it ever was an exploit. Solecist Project wrote: Lucas... saying a group that originated from PvE and then went to PvP can not be tougher than a group that started with PvP directly ... ... is like saying these people are incapable to learn and gain practise like the others. That's not right. You misunderstand. A corp that is PvE focussed and has some PvP players is going to be less effective at PvP than a dedicated PvP group who do nothing but PvP. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20778	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:58:12 - [197] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Dude you even quoted the dev in destinies linked thread, the second one. NO LONGER are the key words you dont seem to understand. That means that at a time previous to 2011, corp hopping to evade wars WERE AN EXPLOIT cuz at that point in time they became NO LONGER. Dude you type too much here to act like you dont understand what the dev ment by NO LONGER CONSIDERED Corp hopping isn't what's being questioned though. What we're talking about is corp recycling - the act of deleting and recreating a corp to evade a wardec. That did not say "no longer", it simply said "not an exploit". Please though, find me the dev post stating that corp recycling is an exploit. I'd like to know the answer one way or the other for certain. As it stand there's absolutely no proof it ever was an exploit. Solecist Project wrote: Lucas... saying a group that originated from PvE and then went to PvP can not be tougher than a group that started with PvP directly ... ... is like saying these people are incapable to learn and gain practise like the others. That's not right. You misunderstand. A corp that is PvE focussed and has some PvP players is going to be less effective at PvP than a dedicated PvP group who do nothing but PvP. Ah. Yes. :) "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2879	Posted - 2015.04.21 15:02:20 - [198] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Paying a quarter of your income to fund a proper combat wing would make a lot more sense if the alternative would be to give up half (along with a great deal of efficiency and convenience) in order to stay in an NPC corporation. Unfortunately, there's no other way to solve this issue aside from hard nerfs that put a price on safety. Pirates have been eating such hard nerfs for many, many years now, so perhaps it's time our industrious counterparts took one for the team as well. But it wouldn't just be a quarter. They'd pay a quarter, but when under wardec they'd be unable to do most activities in space anyway. Having a PvP wing around you does nothing against a seasoned team of dedicated PvPers who have no goal other than PvP. Besides, would you really want to play a game where you sit and watch a PvE player do PvE all day just in case a wardeccer shows up, being paid 1/4 of a highsec PvE income? The solution is having those seasoned, dedicated pvpers as part of your team. The industrialists gain the benefit of protection (and I'm talking real protection, as in "wait a second, did these guys just put a dozen Vindicators on the field? I thought we were going to kill Retrievers?"), and the pvpers get the benefit of cheaper stuff, and maybe having someone else cover their war fees for a change. And that last part I typed there? It's important. The trick to retaining these pvpers isn't just helping them out financially, but actually allowing them to operate how they want, under their own rules. Then they can go out and do the same pvp they would have done on their own, while the industrialists do their own thing. No one has to bleed their eyes out watching miners mine for twelve. Meanwhile, the non-rubbish killboard stats show everyone that you're a hard target, and no one ever dares to **** with you. I've been a long-term member of two such corporations throughout my years in the game. Here's a killboard link for one of them: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=corporation&name=Ore+Mongers Ranked 217 even after half a decade of being effectively disbanded. You keep mentioning how old of a player you are, but the fact that you haven't arrived at this very simple formula for success is downright astonishing. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 793	Posted - 2015.04.21 15:29:54 - [199] - Quote I love it how people generalise about conflict in this game, like Destiny Corrupted above. When it was only me in my corp and alliance I was spotted by the CEO of Deadly Fingertips webbing an Orca near Osmon, in comes a war dec. So I was not impressed, so in the time I had I watched them and made a snap decision head to Jita, I then setup some ships and stuff then watched them some more. After I had gained my intel I tested them on the Jita 4-4 undock with a low skilled alt, but with a ship designed to survive station games. The next two days I just played with the people they had on the Jita undock, I cost them a lot of kills and I almost killed some small stuff, I could have killed a Tengu and a Loki, but my objective was simple to be a pain so they would not war dec me again, I did not want to get one upset by blowing up his pixels. At the end of the war dec it was not renewed, and one of them told me good resistance. I got involved with the AG movement, this ended up with people that I had talked back into the game rejoining my corp, we took out the POS of a Miniluv player who is very good at freighter ganking by jumping on one of his war dec's on a indy corp. That player was not impressed and has paid for war decs on my alliance. Because of that the same tactics of being a royal pain will not work, so even if I got everyone in blackbirds or whatever it will not end the war dec. I wanted to have some fun in Jita, but one of my FC's did not like the idea of doing that due to past lag issues there, I deferred to him, we decided to look at one of the pipes and hunt there, I was on one roam that drew a blank and he did three roams while I was away for a week at a family funeral, they also drew a blank. GTA 5 has come out and those players are playing that game and having fun, there is nothing interesting in chasing after Marmite for them, so they will just play GTA 5. So at this point there is no way I can get the interest up to go after Marmite or Foresaken. So its back to the time honoured Eve method of boring your opponent to death, happily all of them have massive wallets and no need to grind anything like myself. I have a POS that I left up, the same one I took from the Miniluv player, I am very surprised that it is still very much alive, it has in fact been the best fighter from my alliance in terms of kills, its got a Falcon and a Confessor, that is the only skin I have in the game and I expected to lose it and find it funny that its still trhere. All of our alliances losses came from a new corp that joined my alliance, basically new people who did silly things. One of my players just dropped crop, he wants to do something in Eve, he will be back later. If I want to move stuff around I do so, I know how Marmite operate and where they are, Foresaken Asylum are new to me and am doing my research. I expect to be dog-piled, I already have a lot of intel on Break-A-Wish and the Pursuit of Happiness, so if Vimsy wants to honour me with a war dec I know what to expect. Break-A-Wish are my number one advice for people looking to hire mercs, I have been asked a number of times who to hire and this alliance do more than most. If I got war decc'd by some corp that was looking for a fight and was not one of the Hisec merc corps I would have enjoyed it, I was hoping to get that sort of fight, but I end up with Marmite, which is for me a bit of a yawn. All I can say to Sigfried is that you were too much of a cheapskate to hire Break-A-Wish, though I would rather not have to deal with them in all honesty..., not that they can do much to me, perhaps take a POS which I only hold to annoy siggy. So there you go no skin in the game no reason to fight, and due to GTA 5 no interest in a fight... Ella's Snack bar
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5358	Posted - 2015.04.21 15:40:59 - [200] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: The solution is having those seasoned, dedicated pvpers as part of your team. The industrialists gain the benefit of protection (and I'm talking real protection, as in "wait a second, did these guys just put a dozen Vindicators on the field? I thought we were going to kill Retrievers?"), and the pvpers get the benefit of cheaper stuff, and maybe having someone else cover their war fees for a change. And that last part I typed there? It's important. The trick to retaining these pvpers isn't just helping them out financially, but actually allowing them to operate how they want, under their own rules. Then they can go out and do the same pvp they would have done on their own, while the industrialists do their own thing. No one has to bleed their eyes out watching miners mine for twelve. Meanwhile, the non-rubbish killboard stats show everyone that you're a hard target, and no one ever dares to ** with you. But all the time they are away doing their PvP, war targets get to roam free stomping all over your PvE players. That's no different to how right now you can hire mercs who will sometimes be there, which is pretty much useless in most cases. AS for them being scared off, these big wardec alliance attack each other, pure PvP focused corps. they also attack groups like RvB, a PvP focused group with thousands of players. I don't think most of them would be scared off because your players also kill stuff. If anything it's a jackpot. they get both carebears and gudfites in the same dec fee! Destiny Corrupted wrote:** I've been a long-term member of two such corporations throughout my years in the game. Here's a killboard link for one of them: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=corporation&name=Ore+Mongers Ranked 217 even after half a decade of being effectively disbanded. We had more characters with industrial than combat skills, and we had no problem making the rules everywhere we went. You keep mentioning how old of a player you are, but the fact that you haven't arrived at this very simple formula for success is downright astonishing. That doesn't really look like a highsec corp tbh, the vast majority of your activity seems to be in null. You were even in null alliances. And I came to that same conclusion, I moved to null because trying to be in a decently sized corp which does more than fight endless wardecs in highsec is pointless. Any highsec activity I do is from one man corps or NPC corps. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!

Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12729	Posted - 2015.04.21 16:30:44 - [201] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: We're down to exactly two methods of killing someone in high-sec that the victim can't nullify by flipping a switch. That's saying a lot. Just two more nerfs, I guess. You can tell that's how this is going when the bears are openly saying things like "if they just got rid of wardecs, they'd still have ganking..." Why they even play this game is beyond me. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Daerrol Furtherance. 116	Posted - 2015.04.21 16:31:43 - [202] - Quote OP: Spends a paragraph discussing how good an EVE Commander he is; posts on an alt. Sorry but I've played games with highsec war players. I've gotten a few kills in them and a lot of losses. Thing is, I'm -really- bad at this game, and I was working solo. I firmly believe a mix of competency + friends I could have delt my share of blows in highsec wars. When I'm in a real PVP alliance, even 20 man or so, we usually got a few kills and no losses from wars.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2155	Posted - 2015.04.21 16:59:34 - [203] - Quote I just want to know what the end game is. When all is said and done and it's impossible to destroy another player's ship in highsec then what? How is the game going to be better, what kind of super amazing content will that generate? Where is the value of removing PVP gameplay meant to be?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 796	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:05:40 - [204] - Quote Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Stay a while and listen while I tell you the story of my people Dracvlad, sorry to break it to you but the reason you got wardecced was your crying on the forums. No goon plot to "get you" or anything involved. The onus for your corpies leaving is therefor on you. They didn't want to go after marmites or whoever and you pestered them untill they left for GTA. Learn from that. For all the impact you think you have otherwise, you are (as I, I admit) quite irrelevant. You being docked somewhere doesn't impact anyone. Forums are a fun pastime for me so... meh. Someone getting killed somewhere in a game about killing stuff is again... Well, you know what I mean. Please stop derailing this thread with post about how you are bad at EVE and want EVE to drop to your level. Either shape up or ship out. No tears will be shed, anyway the wind blows. D. Really, yet at the same time you war dec'd a number of other anti-gankers who had been active in Niarja, coincidence, not really, in fact the other corp in my alliance was independently war dec'd by your before they joined us. Crying, not at all, going after a poster who was making statements about carebears and yet had not killed a single ship nor had he lost anything either. If that is crying then you need to think a bit deeper. My corpies have fought the Orphanage and Marmite in other corps, they just have no interest in you and your alliance, GTA 5 coming along was the final nail. Play Eve and have people in instra lock ships run away, yeah right, GTA 5 wins for them. Of course I am irrelevant, and I am docked now, but was not earlier, in fact I was moving a load of ships I brought back through a WH from Stain into lowsec and I was moving them to Osmon and yet not a single Marmite showed up for 8 hours, thats bad at Eve. Either you want to kill me or you don't, yesterday I was saving a freighter from the Goons for over two hours and yet again no show from Marmite. Do you honestly do anything, you cannot even take down my POS, talk about useless and bad at Eve. But my post was to detail the issue with war decs in terms of having no reason to fight, I have no reason to fight you people and calling me names does not work either, I am seriously not bothered by anything you say and that shows how bad you are. Ella's Snack bar
Carrie-Anne Moss Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 59	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:06:42 - [205] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: I just want to know what the end game is. When all is said and done and it's impossible to destroy another player's ship in highsec then what? How is the game going to be better, what kind of super amazing content will that generate? Where is the value of removing PVP gameplay meant to be? Then we can level our Ravens and mine in peace while watching youtube. Sounds like Shangra-la to me
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:11:41 - [206] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Because those that war dec only want to shoot at miners? And not engage in actual pvp? My point isnt that an industrial corp shouldnt be war dec'd at all. But currently the ability for 300+ people to war dec AT ONCE and PERMANENTLY does seem right. How is a corp supposed to grow to a point where it can defend itself?
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1336	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:14:24 - [207] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Because those that war dec only want to shoot at miners? And not engage in actual pvp? My point isnt that an industrial corp shouldnt be war dec'd at all. But currently the ability for 300+ people to war dec AT ONCE and PERMANENTLY does seem right. How is a corp supposed to grow to a point where it can defend itself? My offer still stands to show you. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Freya Sertan Ministry of War Amarr Empire 49	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:15:11 - [208] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Because those that war dec only want to shoot at miners? And not engage in actual pvp? My point isnt that an industrial corp shouldnt be war dec'd at all. But currently the ability for 300+ people to war dec AT ONCE and PERMANENTLY does seem right. How is a corp supposed to grow to a point where it can defend itself? Fight back. Show you're willing to defend YOUR CORP. Don't just ***** hide, do something. Prove that you have some teeth and maybe they will end the wardec. Seriously. It's YOUR corp, **ing defend it.
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1337	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:19:26 - [209] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: But my post was to detail the issue with war decs in terms of having no reason to fight, I have no reason to fight you people and calling me names does not work either, I am seriously not bothered by anything you say and that shows how bad you are. You insisting on writing pagelong essays of how much you don't care isn't very convincing. Just saying. I haven't called you any names and if I did, that wouldn't change anything about the fact you clearly are clueless when it comes to hisec wars. But let's drink your brand of coolaid for a minute; You aren't bothered by wardecs, in fact, you welcome them. What's your point or better yet problem than? D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Freya Sertan Ministry of War Amarr Empire 51	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:25:35 - [210] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Because those that war dec only want to shoot at miners? And not engage in actual pvp? My point isnt that an industrial corp shouldnt be war dec'd at all. But currently the ability for 300+ people to war dec AT ONCE and PERMANENTLY does seem right. How is a corp supposed to grow to a point where it can defend itself? I tell ya what. I'm in an NPC corp right now because I can't find a good player corp that fits. I'll join yours, today, and fight in your war for you. Maybe, the dedication of ONE person, unrelated to your corp other than the fact that I want you to fight back, might show the corp behind the wardec that they can lift it. I am no good at PvP but I am not afraid to lose a ship. If you won't defend your corp, I will. SOMEONE has to, eh?

Valedictio Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 35	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:25:36 - [211] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Because those that war dec only want to shoot at miners? And not engage in actual pvp? My point isnt that an industrial corp shouldnt be war dec'd at all. But currently the ability for 300+ people to war dec AT ONCE and PERMANENTLY does seem right. How is a corp supposed to grow to a point where it can defend itself? AT ONCE ( What happened to the 24 hr Period ? ) PERMANENTLY ( Yeah if they feel like renewing the fee ) a 1 man corps can wardec just as well as a 1000 man corps, What I would really like to know is why YOU managed to have everyone permadec your corps, for that to happen you or a member of your corps must have done something to someone ? Is this more a case of you paying the consequences of your actions and crying that it's not fair ? action/reaction, I have had decs against and declared them ( POS Bashing for isk) even had corps jumpers kill some corpies, (1 man corps suddenly grows a few members), I laughed at them for being stupid. So what happened to bring this hurt locker to you ? and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium. Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON'
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6588	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:28:02 - [212] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Stay a while and listen while I tell you the story of my people Dracvlad, sorry to break it to you but the reason you got wardecced was your crying on the forums. No goon plot to "get you" or anything involved. The onus for your corpies leaving is therefor on you. They didn't want to go after marmites or whoever and you pestered them untill they left for GTA. Learn from that. For all the impact you think you have otherwise, you are (as I, I admit) quite irrelevant. You being docked somewhere doesn't impact anyone. Forums are a fun pastime for me so... meh. Someone getting killed somewhere in a game about killing stuff is again... Well, you know what I mean. Please stop derailing this thread with post about how you are bad at EVE and want EVE to drop to your level. Either shape up or ship out. No tears will be shed, anyway the wind blows. D. Really, yet at the same time you war dec'd a number of other anti-gankers who had been active in Niarja, coincidence, not really, in fact the other corp in my alliance was independently war dec'd by your before they joined us. Crying, not at all, going after a poster who was making statements about carebears and yet had not killed a single ship nor had he lost anything either. If that is crying then you need to think a bit deeper. My corpies have fought the Orphanage and Marmite in other corps, they just have no interest in you and your alliance, GTA 5 coming along was the final nail. Play Eve and have people in instra lock ships run away, yeah right, GTA 5 wins for them. Of course I am irrelevant, and I am docked now, but was not earlier, in fact I was moving a load of ships I brought back through a WH from Stain into lowsec and I was moving them to Osmon and yet not a single Marmite showed up for 8 hours, thats bad at Eve. Either you want to kill me or you don't, yesterday I was saving a freighter from the Goons for over two hours and yet again no show from Marmite. Do you honestly do anything, you cannot even take down my POS, talk about useless and bad at Eve. But my post was to detail the issue with war decs in terms of having no reason to fight, I have no reason to fight you people and calling me names does not work either, I am seriously not bothered by anything you say and that shows how bad you are. Siggi is getting ripped off, it appears. Hope he didn't spend ISK on the merc contract. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20798	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:30:01 - [213] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Because those that war dec only want to shoot at miners? And not engage in actual pvp? My point isnt that an industrial corp shouldnt be war dec'd at all. But currently the ability for 300+ people to war dec AT ONCE and PERMANENTLY does seem right. How is a corp supposed to grow to a point where it can defend itself? Not every corp is destined to do so. That's a matter of fact. If we hadn't natural selection, which seperates the strong from the weak ... ... how do you think it would look like? Without corps falling apart, there would be no point to corps at all. Everyone could grow his corp potentially forever. What I mean to say is that ... ... no one has the right to grow a corp. If your corpmembers are not willing to fight for the corp ... ... then you have bad corpmembers ... ... which means the corp would have failed anyway. If you have issues defending yourself, then ... ... the CEO needs to learn and teach his member. ... the CEO needs to hire someone who teaches it. ... the corp breaks from being naturally selected. There are thousands of active corps out there ... ... and they are just fine for one reason or another. Or several. And I honestly can not stress enough that a bunch of noobs ... ... even day old chars ... ... can help defend their corp based on the instructions of people who know how. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:33:08 - [214] - Quote Daerrol wrote: OP: Spends a paragraph discussing how good an EVE Commander he is; posts on an alt. Sorry but I've played games with highsec war players. I've gotten a few kills in them and a lot of losses. Thing is, I'm -really- bad at this game, and I was working solo. I firmly believe a mix of competency + friends I could have delt my share of blows in highsec wars. When I'm in a real PVP alliance, even 20 man or so, we usually got a few kills and no losses from wars. I understand your your feelings towards this matter. I used an alt because im known to be controversial, and i didnt want that getting in the way of what i feel is very important. 9 pages later, and healthy discussion - clearly this was the right choice.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:38:49 - [215] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: alexclone1 wrote: [quote=Destiny Corrupted]I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? If we hadn't natural selection, which seperates the strong from the weak ... ... how do you think it would look like? Without corps falling apart, there would be no point to corps at all. Everyone could grow his corp potentially forever. What I mean to say is that ... ... no one has the right to grow a corp. Ask LOVESQUAD. Your arguement is that in high sec, where npc factions rule, that you should be able to crush any industrial corporation because you feel that you are superior. Your arguement fits best in low/null sec. High sec is where new bros learn to grow in the game. How can that be achieved when 50m+ sp characters are in a 300 man group shooting down 5m sp characters and calling it leet pvp? How can such low skill characters that most often trained into a mining barge even hope to fight off faction fit Battleships? My arguement IS NOT that this SHOULD NOT happen. Im ok with faction fit BS's chasing down miners in a corp. However it is the Number and duration of it that i find broken. A pvp alliance can war dec just anyone anyone, at once, for an unlimited amount of time because the costs are so low. Raise the costs.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 797	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:43:42 - [216] - Quote Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: But my post was to detail the issue with war decs in terms of having no reason to fight, I have no reason to fight you people and calling me names does not work either, I am seriously not bothered by anything you say and that shows how bad you are. You insisting on writing pagelong essays of how much you don't care isn't very convincing. Just saying. I haven't called you any names and if I did, that wouldn't change anything about the fact you clearly are clueless when it comes to hisec wars. But let's drink your brand of coolaid for a minute; You aren't bothered by wardecs, in fact, you welcome them. What's your point or better yet problem than? D. As if I care, you say you war dec'd me because I took some loser to task over his killboard when he was sprouting HTFU rubbish in another thread and yet you don't even come after me, this exchange between me and you lies at the heart of the disconnect of war dec's, I happen to think you war decc'd us because you were paid, but all I am is added to the pot so your instra lockers can kill a few noobs. But lets suppose you did not, you did it because of something I said, yet you have not hunted me, you have not taken down my POS, what is the reason for your war dec, how can you make me cry, except by laughing too hard. Thankyou for making me laugh so much. Ella's Snack bar
Memphis Baas 309	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:49:03 - [217] - Quote Raise the costs won't do much. But if they go that route, maybe they should implement HIGH cost for a big discrepancy in members, so that two large alliances wardeccing each other costs almost nothing, but 300 people wardeccing 20 costs A LOT. But again, as it's been pointed out, people are opposed to rules that break the freedom of the sandbox and protect the carebears with artificial rules.
Paranoid Loyd 4813	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:50:24 - [218] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: I used an alt because im known to be controversial So you are admitting you have a big mouth yet you are wondering why you are permadecced? Maybe try STFU? If you can't defend yourself, why would you draw attention to yourself by being controversial? If you can't keep a low profile then you should not be running an industrial corp. There are plenty of successful indy corps, but you've never heard of them. Guess why? Because they know how to keep good relations and keep their mouths shut. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!!!
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:51:53 - [219] - Quote Valedictio wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Because those that war dec only want to shoot at miners? And not engage in actual pvp? My point isnt that an industrial corp shouldnt be war dec'd at all. But currently the ability for 300+ people to war dec AT ONCE and PERMANENTLY does seem right. How is a corp supposed to grow to a point where it can defend itself? AT ONCE ( What happened to the 24 hr Period ? ) PERMANENTLY ( Yeah if they feel like renewing the fee ) a 1 man corps can wardec just as well as a 1000 man corps, What I would really like to know is why YOU managed to have everyone permadec your corps, for that to happen you or a member of your corps must have done something to someone ? Is this more a case of you paying the consequences of your actions and crying that it's not fair ? action/reaction, I have had decs against and declared them ( POS Bashing for isk) even had corps jumpers kill some corpies, (1 man corps suddenly grows a few members), I laughed at them for being stupid. So what happened to bring this hurt locker to you ? AT ONCE - meaning multiple alliances war decing at the same time Permanently - you answered your own question What? Are you saying that 1 man corp can war dec an equal amount of 1000 man corps? I dont understand your point Neither. More of a case of 30 corpies being online at the same time and leet pvpers looking for easy kills. What happened is listed in the original post Thanks for your comments!
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:54:21 - [220] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: alexclone1 wrote: I used an alt because im known to be controversial So you are admitting you have a big mouth yet you are wondering why you are permadecced? Maybe try STFU? If you can't defend yourself, why would you draw attention to yourself by being controversial? If you can't keep a low profile then you should not be running an industrial corp. There are plenty of successful indy corps, but you've never heard of them. Guess why? Because they know how to keep good relations and keep their mouths shut. Controversial in null sec. And i didnt use my null sec character to create a high sec corp. Its difficult to keep a 'low profile' in an industry corp when 30+ peeps are online at once. Please educate me about these 'good relations' between industrial corps and merc alliances. Does 'good relations' mean having to pay a ransom constantly?

Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20800	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:54:32 - [221] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Solecist Project wrote: alexclone1 wrote: [quote=Destiny Corrupted]I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? If we hadn't natural selection, which seperates the strong from the weak ... ... how do you think it would look like? Without corps falling apart, there would be no point to corps at all. Everyone could grow his corp potentially forever. What I mean to say is that ... ... no one has the right to grow a corp. Ask LOVESQUAD. Your arguement is that in high sec, where npc factions rule, that you should be able to crush any industrial corporation because you feel that you are superior. Your arguement fits best in low/null sec. High sec is where new bros learn to grow in the game. How can that be achieved when 50m+ sp characters are in a 300 man group shooting down 5m sp characters and calling it leet pvp? How can such low skill characters that most often trained into a mining barge even hope to fight off faction fit Battleships? My arguement IS NOT that this SHOULD NOT happen. Im ok with faction fit BS's chasing down miners in a corp. However it is the Number and duration of it that i find broken. A pvp alliance can war dec just anyone anyone, at once, for an unlimited amount of time because the costs are so low. Raise the costs. No. You put words in my mouth and argue as if I had personal feelings about it. These are yours. Superiority is a matter of fact, as long as it is proven. Nature works that way. The weak perish. It's natural and allows organic growth. You seem not to know that new playwrs with proper instructions can bring down battleships. Takes them what, an hour ? to learn with practise. You not knowing better does not change that. And someone who can fly a barge can fly a frigate. Can skill ten minutes to ecm. Can lock, activate a module and orbit. All that stands in your way of realising what's going on ... ... is realising that you are missing far more than you are aware of. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1338	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:55:55 - [222] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: As if I care, you say you war dec'd me because I took some loser to task over his killboard when he was sprouting HTFU rubbish in another thread and yet you don't even come after me, this exchange between me and you lies at the heart of the disconnect of war dec's, I happen to think you war decc'd us because you were paid, but all I am is added to the pot so your instra lockers can kill a few noobs. But lets suppose you did not, you did it because of something I said, yet you have not hunted me, you have not taken down my POS, what is the reason for your war dec, how can you make me cry, except by laughing too hard. Thankyou for making me laugh so much. Look at it like a trapper. I go out and set traps... hundreds of them. Than I do my rounds... sometimes I get lots of game, sometimes I get none. I have fun. You assume waaaay too much: because I took some loser to task over his killboard when he was sprouting HTFU rubbish WHAT are you talking about? you don't even come after me Did, twice. You ran. Twice. this exchange between me and you lies at the heart of the disconnect of war dec's Wait, what?! It has nothing to do with wardecs. This exchange is nothing but that. An exchange. you war decc'd us because you were paid nop. your instra lockers can kill a few noobs. My what? What are you on about? yet you have not hunted me. See above, twice. you have not taken down my POS Yet, keep talking. what is the reason for your war dec, how can you make me cry, He cried... D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1338	Posted - 2015.04.21 17:58:38 - [223] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Trollbait after trollbait after trollbait while ignoring every way forward. I'm calling bullshit right about now. OP is trollbait and nothing more. Touch+¬, you got me. D. Out. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Freya Sertan Ministry of War Amarr Empire 53	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:00:54 - [224] - Quote This makes me sad I offered my services... such as they are. Ah well, guess I'm a sucker.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20800	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:11:30 - [225] - Quote Danalee wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Trollbait after trollbait after trollbait while ignoring every way forward. I'm calling bullshit right about now. OP is trollbait and nothing more. Touch+¬, you got me. D. Out. No. He's a hater with agenda. It's perfect to cement once again how wrong they are. And the next time someone comes up with it ... ... we just link here ... ... and lock down the thread on our own. Sqdly people on our side work against us as well ... "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 4417	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:16:05 - [226] - Quote I have removed a rule breaking post and the one quoting it. The Rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20801	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:21:16 - [227] - Quote Oh I forgot. Raising the costs is pointless and bad. It would just make it harder for newer pilots to wardec others. This btw shows how flawed your perception is when it comes to the game. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:23:00 - [228] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Solecist Project wrote: [quote=alexclone1][quote=Destiny Corrupted]I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? If we hadn't natural selection, which seperates the strong from the weak ... ... how do you think it would look like? Without corps falling apart, there would be no point to corps at all. Everyone could grow his corp potentially forever. What I mean to say is that ... ... no one has the right to grow a corp. Ask LOVESQUAD. Your arguement is that in high sec, where npc factions rule, that you should be able to crush any industrial corporation because you feel that you are superior. Your arguement fits best in low/null sec. High sec is where new bros learn to grow in the game. How can that be achieved when 50m+ sp characters are in a 300 man group shooting down 5m sp characters and calling it leet pvp? How can such low skill characters that most often trained into a mining barge even hope to fight off faction fit Battleships? My arguement IS NOT that this SHOULD NOT happen. Im ok with faction fit BS's chasing down miners in a corp. However it is the Number and duration of it that i find broken. [b] You seem not to know that new playwrs with proper instructions can bring down battleships. Takes them what, an hour ? to learn with practise. You not knowing better does not change that. interesting. plz post kill mail
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:25:12 - [229] - Quote Danalee wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Trollbait after trollbait after trollbait while ignoring every way forward. I'm calling bullshit right about now. OP is trollbait and nothing more. Touch+¬, you got me. D. Out. How can a war dec mechanic (that i am defending) that used to exist FOR OVER A DECADE be considered a troll?
SilentAsTheGrave Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 187	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:26:52 - [230] - Quote The problem with war decs is there is no grey area where players can have choices on mitigating it. It is all or nothing. So small groups are easily overwhelmed by large and powerful forces. Sure you can cross your arms and say, "that's eve" But the reality is it does not make for good gameplay. Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!

alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:29:53 - [231] - Quote SilentAsTheGrave wrote: The problem with war decs is there is no grey area where players can have choices on mitigating it. It is all or nothing. So small groups are easily overwhelmed by large and powerful forces. Sure you can cross your arms and say, "that's eve" But the reality is it does not make for good gameplay. exactly. War decs are good. Industrial corps should be war dec'd. But the current mechanic allowing just about everyone, at once, to wardec a corp that already has 5 war decs against it makes no sense. And if your corp is active, and dudes die (which happens in wardecs) then they constantly become renewed. Esentially your only option is to log out for a week and pray they dont renew. 30 vs 300 just isnt viable. Especially when the costs of said war dec are minimal. Edit: This is high sec. Not null sec. In null sec you wave all right to things being fair because there are no npc faction/mechanics protecting you. Its pure politics. In high sec, you have a pay a fee to the npc faction (not shoot on site) and that is the particular mechanic that is broken imo. The costs need to be higher. If you wanted to war dec someone, it should be because they REALLY pissed you off. Not because you want to shoot at miners.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20804	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:30:20 - [232] - Quote Quote: interesting. plz post kill mail And this bullshit is what exposes you as a hater. This thread should be locked, but as you wish to help us .... You actually think this ends my argument. You know that even if I digged one out (hey Ralph?) you would claim fake. But tell you what. You roll a new char and we show you. Easily done and there will be no shadow of a doubt left. So... what's your excuse now? "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1340	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:31:01 - [233] - Quote I'll end it with this; I can make a corp. In that corp I can mine, mission, have structures, have no tax and I can market PVP. Anyone can wardec my small corp. If that happens, which will be very rare, I can continue doing the same thing as before. 10 man corp? Same thing. 100 man corp? SAME THING. 5000000+ Alliance... guess what? Same yeah. Your argument is so flawed it went from funny to sad and back, twice. Wardecs should be free. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20804	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:31:13 - [234] - Quote Oh btw hi Veers. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20804	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:32:06 - [235] - Quote Danalee wrote: I'll end it with this; I can make a corp. In that corp I can mine, mission, have structures, have no tax and I can market PVP. Anyone can wardec my small corp. If that happens, which will be very rare, I can continue doing the same thing as before. 10 man corp? Same thing. 100 man corp? SAME THING. 5000000+ Alliance... guess what? Same yeah. Your argument is so flawed it went from funny to sad and back, twice. Wardecs should be free. D. Let's do this. Can I join? No one wants me even though I even made a recruitment thread. :( "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:33:58 - [236] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Quote: interesting. plz post kill mail And this bullshit is what exposes you as a hater. This thread should be locked, but as you wish to help us .... You actually think this ends my argument. You know that even if I digged one out (hey Ralph?) you would claim fake. But tell you what. You roll a new char and we show you. Easily done and there will be no shadow of a doubt left. So... what's your excuse now? Please calm down, i dont mean any disrespect. Firstly you said it would take an hour to kill a battleship. Ok, im sure it can be done. My question is how often does 1 guy wardec a corp? Im sure it happens, but i DONT have issues with that. My issues are with the mulitple mega war decing groups that can war dec everyone at will. Where is this Battlehips's friends? Im sure you been in high sec wars, and you would know that even a war dec'd frigate would be met with EVERYONE trying to get on a km.
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1340	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:37:29 - [237] - Quote The bigger they are, the more chance for the hunter to become the prey. Also, no amount of battleships will ever kill my frigate and I have the added bonus of being able to split them up untill I have them right where I want them. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:39:22 - [238] - Quote Danalee wrote: I'll end it with this; I can make a corp. In that corp I can mine, mission, have structures, have no tax and I can market PVP. Anyone can wardec my small corp. If that happens, which will be very rare, I can continue doing the same thing as before. 10 man corp? Same thing. 100 man corp? SAME THING. 5000000+ Alliance... guess what? Same yeah. Your argument is so flawed it went from funny to sad and back, twice. Wardecs should be free. D. Lets step through this. So lets say you have an active 100 man high sec corp with 40 people online at once. You get wardec'd (it isnt 'very rare' as you claim) and hundreds of pilots from experienced war decers show up to your hq system. They know where you rat (agent finder) they know where you mine (neutral cloaky alts), ect. So what happens? They put a cloaky alt in your system, watch your corpies undock to do a mission, wait 1j over and blap em. You decide to put your own cloaky alts to watch their cloaky alts. You warp to the gate (opposite gate is clear), you jump and then wt's log in, and blap you. You try to mine, war targets log in and blap you. The point is, no matter how careful you are; experienced pvpers have been doing this for YEARS. Im not against these mechanics. Im simply against the cost amount of what it takes to war dec a corp/alliance
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:42:35 - [239] - Quote Danalee wrote: The bigger they are, the more chance for the hunter to become the prey. Also, no amount of battleships will ever kill my frigate and I have the added bonus of being able to split them up untill I have them right where I want them. D. Dominix? - lets talk about 'the bigger you are'. Your logic SHOULD play out. So lets say you get a war dec, and your corp owes. That war decing corp calls in buddies, who call in buddies because "holy cow an industrial corp that will fight". Due to the low costs, you now have 5 war decs and hundreds of pilots looking for blood. Tell me, how does one recruit to get bigger when your corp cant even undock from station?
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20804	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:44:53 - [240] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Quote: interesting. plz post kill mail And this bullshit is what exposes you as a hater. This thread should be locked, but as you wish to help us .... You actually think this ends my argument. You know that even if I digged one out (hey Ralph?) you would claim fake. But tell you what. You roll a new char and we show you. Easily done and there will be no shadow of a doubt left. So... what's your excuse now? Please calm down, i dont mean any disrespect. Firstly you said it would take an hour to kill a battleship. Ok, im sure it can be done. My question is how often does 1 guy wardec a corp? Im sure it happens, but i DONT have issues with that. My issues are with the mulitple mega war decing groups that can war dec everyone at will. Where is this Battlehips's friends? Im sure you been in high sec wars, and you would know that even a war dec'd frigate would be met with EVERYONE trying to get on a km. No, I did say it takes an hour for a noob to learn. I wardecced quite a few corps. I even joined alliances to take on eveuni on my own. When I was -10 in highsec. A stalemate at 10vs me in a bouncing tornado ... ... ended with them bringing 20 more. It was hilarious! I got booted for ruining their killboard, because I refused to stop exlerimenting and learning. Solstice Project, Space P0lice alliance. Look ... I can assure you that big corps can as well be beaten. Tactics and attitude are everything. Take down ONE blingy ship of these idiots and they will tuck their tail up thejr rear ends and run crying for their goddamn mother! Besides there usually being reasons for these decs. (seriously you might have someone in corp who keeps running a big mouth, maybe even deliberately. You need to ask deccers! nicely!) I can also assure you that your personal biggest enemies of a happy game are ... ... your own ignorance about what you do not know. ... all the people who share your viewpoint and don't know better. Drop these morons and interact with people who actually know what they are doing! You will be surprised, trust me. The issue you are bringing up is not fixable, because the victims are ignorant about their possibilities ... ... and or might simply be outmeta'd by a member who runs a big mouth towards others. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.

Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20810	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:47:11 - [241] - Quote Ssshhhh Pedro, it's going well right now... :) "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Freya Sertan Ministry of War Amarr Empire 54	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:50:13 - [242] - Quote This is a fun thread. I love the indignant replies from the obvious alt. I've gone from wanting to help to wanting to wardec him. In my ONE person alt corp.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 13	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:52:37 - [243] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: alexclone1 wrote: SilentAsTheGrave wrote: The problem with war decs is there is no grey area where players can have choices on mitigating it. It is all or nothing. So small groups are easily overwhelmed by large and powerful forces. Sure you can cross your arms and say, "that's eve" But the reality is it does not make for good gameplay. exactly. War decs are good. Industrial corps should be war dec'd. But the current mechanic allowing just about everyone, at once, to wardec a corp that already has 5 war decs against it makes no sense. And if your corp is active, and dudes die (which happens in wardecs) then they constantly become renewed. Esentially your only option is to log out for a week and pray they dont renew. 30 vs 300 just isnt viable. Especially when the costs of said war dec are minimal. Edit: This is high sec. Not null sec. In null sec you wave all right to things being fair because there are no npc faction/mechanics protecting you. Its pure politics. In high sec, you have a pay a fee to the npc faction (not shoot on site) and that is the particular mechanic that is broken imo. The costs need to be higher. If you wanted to war dec someone, it should be because they REALLY pissed you off. Not because you want to shoot at miners. Do you really expect us to believe that if wardecs were say limited to 3 per corp, that you would be happy? No, if your industrial corp was still wardecced you would be here on the forums claiming that they are still unbalanced because your corp was wardecced by someone bigger than you. All a restriction on numbers would do is break wardeccers up into smaller corps, and hurt struggling highsec mercenaries even more than the current wardec mechanics already do. Raising costs would make an already too costly mechanic out of reach for small corps to dip their toes in PvP with or settle scores with other small corps. You should be able to wardec someone whenever you want. You should definitely be able to wardec someone because it is your profession and people are paying you to do so. This is a sandbox after all. New highsec corps, even purely industrial ones, are founded and flourish in the face of wardecs all the time. Just because you were not successful does not mean it is not possible. Learn from your experience, and try again. You are assuming that dec limits or number limits is my solution. I have posted multiple times that COST OF THE WARDEC is the solution. If 5 corps war dec me, at least have the satisfaction of knowing that they are paying out the nose to do it. Please make an attempt not to be so hostile without reading previous posts. Clearly im talking to a pilot of whom i have been having a conversation the last few pages.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 798	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:56:18 - [244] - Quote Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: As if I care, you say you war dec'd me because I took some loser to task over his killboard when he was sprouting HTFU rubbish in another thread and yet you don't even come after me, this exchange between me and you lies at the heart of the disconnect of war dec's, I happen to think you war decc'd us because you were paid, but all I am is added to the pot so your instra lockers can kill a few noobs. But lets suppose you did not, you did it because of something I said, yet you have not hunted me, you have not taken down my POS, what is the reason for your war dec, how can you make me cry, except by laughing too hard. Thankyou for making me laugh so much. Look at it like a trapper. I go out and set traps... hundreds of them. Than I do my rounds... sometimes I get lots of game, sometimes I get none. I have fun. You assume waaaay too much: because I took some loser to task over his killboard when he was sprouting HTFU rubbish WHAT are you talking about? you don't even come after me Did, twice. You ran. Twice. this exchange between me and you lies at the heart of the disconnect of war dec's Wait, what?! It has nothing to do with wardecs. This exchange is nothing but that. An exchange. you war decc'd us because you were paid nop. your instra lockers can kill a few noobs. My what? What are you on about? yet you have not hunted me. See above, twice. you have not taken down my POS Yet, keep talking. what is the reason for your war dec, how can you make me cry, He cried... D. For this toon there could only be one incident and warping away from a cloaked up Pilgrim after I destoyed a MTU on the Mad gate in Niarja which only decloaked 5 minutes after I warped away to destroy a depot belonging to the other corp is not exactly running away. Ella's Snack bar
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1343	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:56:34 - [245] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: I have posted multiple times that COST OF THE WARDEC is the solution. If 5 corps war dec me, at least have the satisfaction of knowing that they are paying out the nose to do it. Please make an attempt not to be so hostile without reading previous posts. Clearly im talking to a pilot of whom i have been having a conversation the last few pages. You'd like that, wouldn't you? Wardec yourself and be done with it. Nop, won't happen. You try and read our posts maybe? People offering real advice and help get ignored while you cherry pick small parts to make your flawed argument. You think we're slow or something? It's a shame you thing so little of the EVE forum dwellers. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20811	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:57:50 - [246] - Quote Raising the cost achieves nothing but the opposite. Noobs will be unable to afford wardecs. Old megacorps as you put them have ISK to **** out anyway. Malcanis' Law applies. Sorry but that's simply no solution. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 14	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:59:53 - [247] - Quote Danalee wrote: alexclone1 wrote: I have posted multiple times that COST OF THE WARDEC is the solution. If 5 corps war dec me, at least have the satisfaction of knowing that they are paying out the nose to do it. Please make an attempt not to be so hostile without reading previous posts. Clearly im talking to a pilot of whom i have been having a conversation the last few pages. You'd like that, wouldn't you? Wardec yourself and be done with it. Nop, won't happen. You try and read our posts maybe? People offering real advice and help get ignored while you cherry pick small parts to make your flawed argument. You think we're slow or something? It's a shame you thing so little of the EVE forum dwellers. D. My 'flawed' arguement was a game mechanic for a decade. Since then industrial corp numbers are down in high sec due to the vast number of war decs that any corp can obtain simply by being active. In fact, i would welcome a ccp representative to comment about industrial corp numbers compared from this year to 2012 and before.
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1343	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:05:11 - [248] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: My 'flawed' arguement was a game mechanic for a decade. Changed for the better. Indeed. Stop trying to get back to the olden days and live in the now. alexclone1 wrote: Since then industrial corp numbers are down in high sec Proof much? It's like that saying, proof or STFU alexclone1 wrote: due to the vast number of war decs that any corp can obtain simply by being active. Proof much? It's like that saying, proof or STFU alexclone1 wrote: In fact, i would welcome a ccp representative to comment about industrial corp numbers compared from this year to 2012 and before. Oh, wait... once you get your proof, we'll talk. Meanwhile, stop making an arse of yourself and HTFU. I said it D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 14	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:08:48 - [249] - Quote Danalee wrote: alexclone1 wrote: My 'flawed' arguement was a game mechanic for a decade. Changed for the better. Indeed. Stop trying to get back to the olden days and live in the now. alexclone1 wrote: Since then industrial corp numbers are down in high sec Proof much? It's like that saying, proof or STFU alexclone1 wrote: due to the vast number of war decs that any corp can obtain simply by being active. Proof much? It's like that saying, proof or STFU alexclone1 wrote: In fact, i would welcome a ccp representative to comment about industrial corp numbers compared from this year to 2012 and before. Oh, wait... once you get your proof, we'll talk. Meanwhile, stop making an arse of yourself and HTFU. I said it D. I do know that activity on the client is much lower now than pre war dec changes. I know of dozen of people i used to play with quit after the months of continuous war decs knowing that war decs were dirt cheap and would never stop. Everyone knows that the vast majority of eve online players were high sec industrials. Not sure what demographic is the most popular now... Point being is that an entire way to play was removed so that griefers could war dec at will. Call me a carebear, but ive alarmclocked 4am for 2 months straight to shoot at russians in paragon soul. Ive spent much more time pvping than i have mining. And I felt that in regards to low/null sec - that is pretty fair. High sec is catered to the griefers since 2013, and the game is not better for it.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2157	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:12:10 - [250] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Raising the cost achieves nothing but the opposite. Noobs will be unable to afford wardecs. Old megacorps as you put them have ISK to **** out anyway. Malcanis' Law applies. Sorry but that's simply no solution. In fact we already saw this happen with the Inferno war changes. Increasing the cost of wars just means the people who want to fight wars as their primary form of gameplay have to organize into larger groups to lessen the financial burden on the individual members even if they would prefer to be independent. The side effect is the increased power of war dedicated entities. Anything that makes wars more exclusive will make the existing problems worse.

alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 14	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:13:57 - [251] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Raising the cost achieves nothing but the opposite. Noobs will be unable to afford wardecs. Old megacorps as you put them have ISK to **** out anyway. Malcanis' Law applies. Sorry but that's simply no solution. In fact we already saw this happen with the Inferno war changes. Increasing the cost of wars just means the people who want to fight wars as their primary form of gameplay have to organize into larger groups to lessen the financial burden on the individual members even if they would prefer to be independent. The side effect is the increased power of war dedicated entities. Anything that makes wars more exclusive will make the existing problems worse. Obviously the inferno war changes are the problem. War decs used to DOUBLE after every war dec. The first 2 were pretty cheap (50m, then 100m isk). This would allow the small guys to war dec, and at the same time ensure that too many corps couldnt pile in on an industrial corp at once.
Valkin Mordirc 890	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:14:56 - [252] - Quote Quote: I do know that activity on the client is much lower now than pre war dec changes. I know of dozen of people i used to play with quit after the months of continuous war decs knowing that war decs were dirt cheap and would never stop. Everyone knows that the vast majority of eve online players were high sec industrials. Not sure what demographic is the most popular now... Point being is that an entire way to play was removed so that griefers could war dec at will. You always will be picked on, if you show no ability to defend yourself. Both in actual life and EVE-online. Sorry but if you, or anybody is somehow incapable of defending themselves they will get **** on. They're are tons of Highsec corps that properly defend themselves from Mercenaries. Ultima Ratio is the first one to come to mind, that or AMC. (even though they are in Nullsec right now) And so on. Also if the highsec indy corp count is so low, why is that wardeccers can find so many indy corps to dec? `#DeleteTheWeak`
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1343	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:15:20 - [253] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: I do know that activity on the client is much lower now than pre war dec changes. Is it? From what I gathered it's at an all time high especially since the THIS IS EVE video. You know, the one with all the pretty explosions. alexclone1 wrote: I know of dozen of people i used to play with quit after the months of continuous war decs knowing that war decs were dirt cheap and would never stop. Man, you know people? Sure they didn't quite because of your non stop whinging? alexclone1 wrote: Everyone knows that the vast majority of eve online players were high sec industrials. Not sure what demographic is the most popular now... Starting with : Everybody knows and spouting random fantasy followed by not sure what it is now... Strong argument right there buddy. Most popular demographic since THIS IS EVE = Nullbear. alexclone1 wrote: Point being is that an entire way to play was removed so that griefers could war dec at will. Which way to play was removed? The one where you circumvented the rules by wardeccing yourself? Wardecs aren't griefing in any way, shape or form by the way. Your posts... yeah, a while 'nother story. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 583	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:21:23 - [254] - Quote Here's what you do: 1. Create a corp. 2. Set the tax rate to 0. 3. Put all your industry alts in that corp. You know, the ones that do all the refining and building; the ones that don't undock. 4. Keep your miners in a NPC corp. 5. Miners mine, trade the ore to station alts for refining and such. 6. Create a chat room to talk in. 7. Use hauler alts to move goods. 8. Profit. Plan B 1. Create several 1-2 man corps for missioners/miners. 2. Set the tax to 0. 3. Create a chat room to talk in. 4. Wardec comes around, missioners can drop to NPC corp. Rejoin once over, or just go ahead and create a new corp. It's called corp hopping. Oh, and don't use corp/alliance ads to recruit. It just brings unwanted attention. Object here is to maintain a low profile, but if **** happens; have a plan to deal with it. Avoiding a wardec is easy. Avoiding ganks is a bit more difficult, but the smart player can do it.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 14	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:22:32 - [255] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Quote: I do know that activity on the client is much lower now than pre war dec changes. I know of dozen of people i used to play with quit after the months of continuous war decs knowing that war decs were dirt cheap and would never stop. Everyone knows that the vast majority of eve online players were high sec industrials. Not sure what demographic is the most popular now... Point being is that an entire way to play was removed so that griefers could war dec at will. You always will be picked on, if you show no ability to defend yourself. Both in actual life and EVE-online. Sorry but if you, or anybody is somehow incapable of defending themselves they will get **** on. You are the ceo of a corp. It grows to 50 pilots and you take them out to low sec on the weekends to kill pirates and you do well. You get war dec'd, and your corp does well. The next day another war dec... no big deal. The next another war dec, you decide that now you are outnumbered and so you will only take engagements that you can win/ do quick drive bys. The next day another alliance war decs you... word is getting around that you will actually fight! The next day another war dec, you are not camped in station. Whats your next play?
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 14	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:23:44 - [256] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Here's what you do: 1. Create a corp. 2. Set the tax rate to 0. 3. Put all your industry alts in that corp. You know, the ones that do all the refining and building; the ones that don't undock. 4. Keep your miners in a NPC corp. 5. Miners mine, trade the ore to station alts for refining and such. 6. Create a chat room to talk in. 7. Use hauler alts to move goods. 8. Profit. Plan B 1. Create several 1-2 man corps for missioners/miners. 2. Set the tax to 0. 3. Create a chat room to talk in. 4. Wardec comes around, missioners can drop to NPC corp. Rejoin once over, or just go ahead and create a new corp. It's called corp hopping. Oh, and don't use corp/alliance ads to recruit. It just brings unwanted attention. Object here is to maintain a low profile, but if **** happens; have a plan to deal with it. Avoiding a wardec is easy. Avoiding ganks is a bit more difficult, but the smart player can do it. 100% correct. This is how high sec industrial corps operate. Its up to CCP if they think this is acceptable.
Valkin Mordirc 890	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:29:02 - [257] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Valkin Mordirc wrote: Quote: I do know that activity on the client is much lower now than pre war dec changes. I know of dozen of people i used to play with quit after the months of continuous war decs knowing that war decs were dirt cheap and would never stop. Everyone knows that the vast majority of eve online players were high sec industrials. Not sure what demographic is the most popular now... Point being is that an entire way to play was removed so that griefers could war dec at will. You always will be picked on, if you show no ability to defend yourself. Both in actual life and EVE-online. Sorry but if you, or anybody is somehow incapable of defending themselves they will get **** on. You are the ceo of a corp. It grows to 50 pilots and you take them out to low sec on the weekends to kill pirates and you do well. You get war dec'd, and your corp does well. The next day another war dec... no big deal. The next another war dec, you decide that now you are outnumbered and so you will only take engagements that you can win/ do quick drive bys. The next day another alliance war decs you... word is getting around that you will actually fight! The next day another war dec, you are not camped in station. Whats your next play? Small fast hard hitting fleets meant to hit and run. Vexor Navy Issue with Logi support. My corp would be one of 100 that are decced. Unbelievably low profile I'm just another red in local not a gang with a very set plan. Literally the easiest way to fight mercs. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:30:23 - [258] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: Here's what you do: 1. Create a corp. 2. Set the tax rate to 0. 3. Put all your industry alts in that corp. You know, the ones that do all the refining and building; the ones that don't undock. 4. Keep your miners in a NPC corp. 5. Miners mine, trade the ore to station alts for refining and such. 6. Create a chat room to talk in. 7. Use hauler alts to move goods. 8. Profit. Plan B 1. Create several 1-2 man corps for missioners/miners. 2. Set the tax to 0. 3. Create a chat room to talk in. 4. Wardec comes around, missioners can drop to NPC corp. Rejoin once over, or just go ahead and create a new corp. It's called corp hopping. Oh, and don't use corp/alliance ads to recruit. It just brings unwanted attention. Object here is to maintain a low profile, but if **** happens; have a plan to deal with it. Avoiding a wardec is easy. Avoiding ganks is a bit more difficult, but the smart player can do it. 100% correct. This is how high sec industrial corps operate. Its up to CCP if they think this is acceptable. edit: i decided to use your post in my original post. Well thats about as acceptable as one man corp spoiler war decs and scatter gun war decs, its called balance... Ella's Snack bar
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:31:44 - [259] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Valkin Mordirc wrote: Quote: I do know that activity on the client is much lower now than pre war dec changes. I know of dozen of people i used to play with quit after the months of continuous war decs knowing that war decs were dirt cheap and would never stop. Everyone knows that the vast majority of eve online players were high sec industrials. Not sure what demographic is the most popular now... Point being is that an entire way to play was removed so that griefers could war dec at will. You always will be picked on, if you show no ability to defend yourself. Both in actual life and EVE-online. Sorry but if you, or anybody is somehow incapable of defending themselves they will get **** on. You are the ceo of a corp. It grows to 50 pilots and you take them out to low sec on the weekends to kill pirates and you do well. You get war dec'd, and your corp does well. The next day another war dec... no big deal. The next another war dec, you decide that now you are outnumbered and so you will only take engagements that you can win/ do quick drive bys. The next day another alliance war decs you... word is getting around that you will actually fight! The next day another war dec, you are not camped in station. Whats your next play? Small fast hard hitting fleets meant to hit and run. Vexor Navy Issue with Logi support. My corp would be one of 100 that are decced. Unbelievably low profile I'm just another red in local not a gang with a very set plan. Literally the easiest way to fight mercs. You forgot that you are the ceo of an industrial corp. Most your memebers are around 10m sp with at half being in mining skills. Logis and Vexor Navy issues are not an option except from your more experienced players, which arent many. How did you get your fleet out of the station?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen Origin. Black Legion. 2143	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:31:56 - [260] - Quote Let us speak in terms of historical facts... Wars have already had their fees greatly increased in recent years, still the pansies complain. Wars have already been nerfed to now allow unlimited defenders to come to a defenders aid, still the pansies complain. Wars can be simply negated entirely by dropping corp and joining an NPC corporation, still the pansies complain. Wars can be countered very easily and an aggressor made infinitely miserable just by defenders putting mind in gear, still the pansies complain The 'answer' to the war issue is not further nerfs, but to just tell the pansies to **** off. That, and to close the existing dec-dodging loophole and have a war follow individuals who drop corp under wardec. AFTER that loophole is closed, then we can talk about tweaks to fees. Oh, and the abomination of 'social corporations' that cannot be wardecced is antithesis to EvE's core principles, and both CSM and CCP should feel bad for even considering implementing such a notion. EvE is (supposed to be) a cold dark place, and yes that includes hisec. p.s. @OP: WoW is that way ----> F Would you like to know more?

Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12733	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:33:39 - [261] - Quote So the OP is straight up asking for the dec shield exploit to come back, because he can't be asked to either play the game correctly or shut his mouth, and he believes that neither of those should have any consequences at all. If anyone sniffs this ******'s main out, drop me an evemail, I want in on this. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:34:45 - [262] - Quote [quote=Feyd Rautha Harkonnen The 'answer' to the war issue is not further nerfs, but to just tell the pansies to **** off. That, and to close the existing dec-dodging loophole and have a war follow individuals who drop corp under wardec. AFTER that loophole is closed, then we can talk about tweaks to fees. F[/quote] Im not asking for further nerfs. Im asking that war dec costs would double after the first war dec and so on like the past 10 years.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:35:34 - [263] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So the OP is straight up asking for the dec shield exploit to come back, because he can't be asked to either play the game correctly or shut his mouth, and he believes that neither of those should have any consequences at all. If anyone sniffs this ******'s main out, drop me an evemail, I want in on this. My main is Master Hyde. have at it. I giggled when someone told me to talk to lovesquad
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12733	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:35:39 - [264] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Im not asking for further nerfs. Im asking that war dec costs would double after the first war dec and so on like the past 10 years. That is a nerf. In fact, that is precisely what the present incarnation of wardecs was revised to avoid. They were changed to get rid of specifically that. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:37:14 - [265] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Im not asking for further nerfs. Im asking that war dec costs would double after the first war dec and so on like the past 10 years. That is a nerf. In fact, that is precisely what the present incarnation of wardecs was revised to avoid. They were changed to get rid of specifically that. exactly. so what you REALLY meant to say when you listed all those nerfs is that in reality mercs got a buff in wardecing mechanics and those nerfs made it a little better. But the original war dec system is the **** you bitched about and no way do you want it back. And yet you tell me to adapt. Hypocrite 101
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20820	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:38:06 - [266] - Quote It went so well ... and now this. So completely unnecessary. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12733	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:40:24 - [267] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: exactly. so what you REALLY meant to say when you listed all those nerfs is that in reality mercs got a buff in wardecing mechanics and those nerfs made it a little better. Nope, it removed an exploit. And true to form, the carebears moved right on to a different exploit. Your end goal is that wars either stop existing, or are so weak that they might as well not exist. The answer is too damn bad. They're too weak already, if anything they need buffed, and their cost dropped to match the price it costs to flip a corp. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 890	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:41:16 - [268] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: [quote=Feyd Rautha Harkonnen The 'answer' to the war issue is not further nerfs, but to just tell the pansies to **** off. That, and to close the existing dec-dodging loophole and have a war follow individuals who drop corp under wardec. AFTER that loophole is closed, then we can talk about tweaks to fees. F Im not asking for further nerfs. Im asking that war dec costs would double after the first war dec and so on like the past 10 years.[/quote] Ok. We do this and you still get wardecced because someone doesn't like you, or perhaps one of your corp members likes to mouth off. Now what?
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:44:38 - [269] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: alexclone1 wrote: [quote=Feyd Rautha Harkonnen The 'answer' to the war issue is not further nerfs, but to just tell the pansies to **** off. That, and to close the existing dec-dodging loophole and have a war follow individuals who drop corp under wardec. AFTER that loophole is closed, then we can talk about tweaks to fees. F Im not asking for further nerfs. Im asking that war dec costs would double after the first war dec and so on like the past 10 years. Ok. We do this and you still get wardecced because someone doesn't like you, or perhaps one of your corp members likes to mouth off. Now what?[/quote] facedesk i have repeatedly posted that war decs ARE COOL. I AM FOR WARDECS. The point is if a corp war decs you, and then a second - RARELY does a 3rd. Because it is too expensive. That is all im wanting. And if i get wardeced by 5 corps- ill know that corp 3-5 paid out the nose and thus im going to blue ball. Dropping the chance they will renew. Currently it is war dec hot and heavy will little financial consequence
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2159	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:47:02 - [270] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Obviously the inferno war changes are the problem. War decs used to DOUBLE after every war dec. The first 2 were pretty cheap (50m, then 100m isk). This would allow the small guys to war dec, and at the same time ensure that too many corps couldnt pile in on an industrial corp at once. Also remember that the base cost of a war for corporations was 2 million isk with the doubling and a 3 war limit. This made it possible for very small groups without an alternate source of income to exist. Whereas now the players that would form these groups join an established group rather than creating their own, adding to its power and contributing to its spending capability. Instead of having many smaller, less dedicated PVP groups that a mixed or pve focused group could actually defend themselves against instead you get these powerful highsec apex alliances that Joe shmoe can't hope to seriously oppose. There's also the fact that the ally system, or more specifically the unilateral nature of it, makes wars horribly unappealing to groups not entirely geared towards PVP. Not only is it certain that the only people who will ever declare war on you are dedicated PVP groups, but the size and power of those groups will be much, much greater than it used to be. There were some benefits to the Inferno changes, but overall it has been super harmful to highsec PVP gameplay.

alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:47:35 - [271] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: alexclone1 wrote: exactly. so what you REALLY meant to say when you listed all those nerfs is that in reality mercs got a buff in wardecing mechanics and those nerfs made it a little better. Nope, it removed an exploit. And true to form, the carebears moved right on to a different exploit. Your end goal is that wars either stop existing, or are so weak that they might as well not exist. The answer is too damn bad. They're too weak already, if anything they need buffed, and their cost dropped to match the price it costs to flip a corp. buff war decs to the price to flip a corp. This is an example of someone who doesnt have the ability to view life from another's perspective. There are others that want to play the game in their own way. Not your way. There is a whole universe of pvp opportunities. Why would you want to further buff high sec war mechanics?
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20826	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:47:50 - [272] - Quote If you wouldn't nonsensically react to the hate-bait ... ... and instead read and respond the posts of those you were already talking with ... ... it would help. Let me repeat ... increasing the wardec fee solves nothing. People still have that money. And your idea opens up the door for abuse, because people can and will simply wardec themselves using alts. That would make it unnecessarily expensive in general. That would mean people group up even more ... ... and THEN we have the same situation as now ... ... with someone new coming up, proposing some idea that simply does not work. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12734	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:48:25 - [273] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: facedesk i have repeatedly posted that war decs ARE COOL. I AM FOR WARDECS. The point is if a corp war decs you, and then a second - RARELY does a 3rd. Because it is too expensive. No. If you don't want people to pile on, you might try shutting your mouth. Quote: That is all im wanting. And if i get wardeced by 5 corps- ill know that corp 3-5 paid out the nose and thus im going to blue ball. Dropping the chance they will renew. Currently it is war dec hot and heavy will little financial consequence What you want is for deccing anyone to automatically be a waste of time, isk and effort. You want wardecs to be 100% worthless. The answer is no. I reiterate, if anyone finds the carebear corp this guy is trying to hide, please let me know. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:48:51 - [274] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Obviously the inferno war changes are the problem. War decs used to DOUBLE after every war dec. The first 2 were pretty cheap (50m, then 100m isk). This would allow the small guys to war dec, and at the same time ensure that too many corps couldnt pile in on an industrial corp at once. Also remember that the base cost of a war for corporations was 2 million isk with the doubling and a 3 war limit. This made it possible for very small groups without an alternate source of income to exist. Whereas now the players that would form these groups join an established group rather than creating their own, adding to its power and contributing to its spending capability. Instead of having many smaller, less dedicated PVP groups that a mixed or pve focused group could actually defend themselves against instead you get these powerful highsec apex alliances that Joe shmoe can't hope to seriously oppose. There's also the fact that the ally system, or more specifically the unilateral nature of it, makes wars horribly unappealing to groups not entirely geared towards PVP. Not only is it certain that the only people who will ever declare war on you are dedicated PVP groups, but the size and power of those groups will be much, much greater than it used to be. There were some benefits to the Inferno changes, but overall it has been super harmful to highsec PVP gameplay. +1
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 585	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:49:48 - [275] - Quote My only issue with wardecs is that they have no substance. No goals or objectives except your personal ones. I don't mind the current mechanics, but they can easily be avoided and/or abused at the same time by both parties. There is no substance in wardecs like you get out of FW. By substance I mean, capture/destroy X = profit or points. Only profit is from loot, tears, or isk via merc contracts. Wardecs need a better prize/motivator. I'll bet most wardecs go something like this: Red 1: We just wardec'd another corp. More targets! YARRHHH! Red 2: YAH! Red 3 and up: Alright!! YES!! Awesome! Blue 1: We got wardec'd. Drop corp or you can just wait it out. Don't undock and give easy kills. Blue 2: We could just create another corp and all join that. Blue 1: good idea. 2 days later: Player 1: Looks like the members of that corp either don't undock, or just dropped corp. No targets. Player 2: BOOO!! Players 3 and up: That sucks! They can't do that! 1 week later: Player 1: Well, that was a waste of isk. Players 2 and up: Agreed. Some players are dumb, and those are the ones that get gut punched when a wardec comes around. I say to those people, "Welcome to EVE! Hope you just learned something!"
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 867	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:49:54 - [276] - Quote Something you hear a lot in EVE. 'Working as intended'. It should be 'broken as intended'. Meta is the answer to your question, has been for 12 years. If you can get 50 people, 100 people together you have 'won EVE'. The key is to not have them in the same corp. Just have them in a same channel. Your corps and alliances need to be unwritten until you are in such a place that you can fight back. It's about convincing those people to let go of the broken mechanics like corp. All those one man alliances you see. You think they are truly all alone? They never talk in local and you know their corp channel is dead. Player channels that don't assign them bulls eyes for gankers allow them to operate just as effective as the gank worthy targets without all the hassle.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:50:16 - [277] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: alexclone1 wrote: facedesk i have repeatedly posted that war decs ARE COOL. I AM FOR WARDECS. The point is if a corp war decs you, and then a second - RARELY does a 3rd. Because it is too expensive. No. If you don't want people to pile on, you might try shutting your mouth. Quote: That is all im wanting. And if i get wardeced by 5 corps- ill know that corp 3-5 paid out the nose and thus im going to blue ball. Dropping the chance they will renew. Currently it is war dec hot and heavy will little financial consequence What you want is for deccing anyone to automatically be a waste of time, isk and effort. You want wardecs to be 100% worthless. The answer is no. I reiterate, if anyone finds the carebear corp this guy is trying to hide, please let me know. What is up with you and mouths? Ive never been war dec'd due to smarting off. I have always been war dec'd because mercs will see 30 of my members in a system and think "kms". I have told you this 2wice, and you are being arrogant and rude. And i already told you my main as well. Your entering troll territory.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12734	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:52:13 - [278] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: What is up with you and mouths? Ive never been war dec'd due to smarting off. Yet. Like I said, if anyone finds the carebear corp this guy is trying to hide, let me know. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:53:05 - [279] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: My only issue with wardecs is that they have no substance. No goals or objectives except your personal ones. I don't mind the current mechanics, but they can easily be avoided and/or abused at the same time by both parties. There is no substance in wardecs like you get out of FW. By substance I mean, capture/destroy X = profit or points. Only profit is from loot, tears, or isk via merc contracts. Wardecs need a better prize/motivator. I'll bet most wardecs go something like this: Red 1: We just wardec'd another corp. More targets! YARRHHH! Red 2: YAH! Red 3 and up: Alright!! YES!! Awesome! Blue 1: We got wardec'd. Drop corp or you can just wait it out. Don't undock and give easy kills. Blue 2: We could just create another corp and all join that. Blue 1: good idea. 2 days later: Player 1: Looks like the members of that corp either don't undock, or just dropped corp. No targets. Player 2: BOOO!! Players 3 and up: That sucks! They can't do that! 1 week later: Player 1: Well, that was a waste of isk. Players 2 and up: Agreed. Some players are dumb, and those are the ones that get gut punched when a wardec comes around. I say to those people, "Welcome to EVE! Hope you just learned something!" Problem with dropping corps is that it looks really bad on your employment history.
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 4421	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:53:12 - [280] - Quote Options, possibilities, choices....rules. You know what? Given the direction this thread is going, I opt to do the following as last resort: This thread has been moved to Crime & Punishment. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:53:51 - [281] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: alexclone1 wrote: What is up with you and mouths? Ive never been war dec'd due to smarting off. Yet. Like I said, if anyone finds the carebear corp this guy is trying to hide, let me know. I JUST TOLD YOU MY MAIN. READ UP. FFS Seriously, what is your malfunction?
Zura Namee Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 29	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:55:12 - [282] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: alexclone1 wrote: What is up with you and mouths? Ive never been war dec'd due to smarting off. Yet. Like I said, if anyone finds the carebear corp this guy is trying to hide, let me know. I JUST TOLD YOU MY MAIN. READ UP. FFS Seriously, what is your malfunction? Thread's not gonna live long if you keep blowing up every time you take the bait man
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:56:08 - [283] - Quote Zura Namee wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: alexclone1 wrote: What is up with you and mouths? Ive never been war dec'd due to smarting off. Yet. Like I said, if anyone finds the carebear corp this guy is trying to hide, let me know. I JUST TOLD YOU MY MAIN. READ UP. FFS Seriously, what is your malfunction? Thread's not gonna live long if you keep blowing up every time you take the bait man Meh, im done making my point anyways. high sec merc game community is toxic at best. Cant even have an adult conversation with so many trolling to make their point.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 585	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:56:25 - [284] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: My only issue with wardecs is that they have no substance. No goals or objectives except your personal ones. I don't mind the current mechanics, but they can easily be avoided and/or abused at the same time by both parties. There is no substance in wardecs like you get out of FW. By substance I mean, capture/destroy X = profit or points. Only profit is from loot, tears, or isk via merc contracts. Wardecs need a better prize/motivator. I'll bet most wardecs go something like this: Red 1: We just wardec'd another corp. More targets! YARRHHH! Red 2: YAH! Red 3 and up: Alright!! YES!! Awesome! Blue 1: We got wardec'd. Drop corp or you can just wait it out. Don't undock and give easy kills. Blue 2: We could just create another corp and all join that. Blue 1: good idea. 2 days later: Player 1: Looks like the members of that corp either don't undock, or just dropped corp. No targets. Player 2: BOOO!! Players 3 and up: That sucks! They can't do that! 1 week later: Player 1: Well, that was a waste of isk. Players 2 and up: Agreed. Some players are dumb, and those are the ones that get gut punched when a wardec comes around. I say to those people, "Welcome to EVE! Hope you just learned something!" Problem with dropping corps is that it looks really bad on your employment history. Having a long employment history isn't a bad thing.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:56:57 - [285] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: My only issue with wardecs is that they have no substance. No goals or objectives except your personal ones. I don't mind the current mechanics, but they can easily be avoided and/or abused at the same time by both parties. There is no substance in wardecs like you get out of FW. By substance I mean, capture/destroy X = profit or points. Only profit is from loot, tears, or isk via merc contracts. Wardecs need a better prize/motivator. I'll bet most wardecs go something like this: Red 1: We just wardec'd another corp. More targets! YARRHHH! Red 2: YAH! Red 3 and up: Alright!! YES!! Awesome! Blue 1: We got wardec'd. Drop corp or you can just wait it out. Don't undock and give easy kills. Blue 2: We could just create another corp and all join that. Blue 1: good idea. 2 days later: Player 1: Looks like the members of that corp either don't undock, or just dropped corp. No targets. Player 2: BOOO!! Players 3 and up: That sucks! They can't do that! 1 week later: Player 1: Well, that was a waste of isk. Players 2 and up: Agreed. Some players are dumb, and those are the ones that get gut punched when a wardec comes around. I say to those people, "Welcome to EVE! Hope you just learned something!" Problem with dropping corps is that it looks really bad on your employment history. Having a long employment history isn't a bad thing. as a null sec CEO, yea it is :)
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 20828	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:57:22 - [286] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: alexclone1 wrote: What is up with you and mouths? Ive never been war dec'd due to smarting off. Yet. Like I said, if anyone finds the carebear corp this guy is trying to hide, let me know. I JUST TOLD YOU MY MAIN. READ UP. FFS Seriously, what is your malfunction? No, they are hate-baiting you into responses so you slowly go nuts. I suggest stopping, because you can not possibly handle so many people at once. Constantly reading and replying. Reading and replying. And time pressure, of course. More reading. More replies. The brain isn't made for that. I certainly will abandon this thread now ... ... because I can't possibly support these selfish haters. Too bad for the thread, it went into the right direction. "Starting, taking part in, or completing a z0r chain is punishable by a permaban from the forums" - actual rule. My 386DX33 was the most expensive computer I ever owned. Eat. Sleep. Profit. Repeat.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12735	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:59:55 - [287] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Meh, im done making my point anyways. high sec merc game community is toxic at best. Cant even have an adult conversation with so many trolling to make their point. You had no point in the first place, except to ask for the return of an exploit that was justly removed. This is EVE Online. You don't get to carebear in peace. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen Origin. Black Legion. 2145	Posted - 2015.04.21 20:02:40 - [288] - Quote Imagine a world, where only the highest SP toon on a subscribed account could post on the EvE-O forums. Wouldn't fix everything, but... Would you like to know more?
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1399	Posted - 2015.04.21 20:15:01 - [289] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Meh, im done making my point anyways. high sec merc game community is toxic at best. Cant even have an adult conversation with so many trolling to make their point. You had no point in the first place, except to ask for the return of an exploit that was justly removed. This is EVE Online. You don't get to carebear in peace. Well, except for when you do, which tends to be most of the players most of the time, and probably a few of the players all of the time.
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 882	Posted - 2015.04.21 20:16:17 - [290] - Quote Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: Imagine a world, where only the highest SP toon on a subscribed account could post on the EvE-O forums. Wouldn't fix everything, but... But wouldn't fix anything at all. First off, many people have multiple accounts. I could just post with the account iike most, still hiding my main. Or say I was a major Indy player. I want to try PvP and buy a character with more skill points. I would be forced to use the new character. Or heck, I could alternate training on two characters and who I post as on the forums would change each week.

Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1347	Posted - 2015.04.21 20:25:51 - [291] - Quote ISD troll, best troll. +1 would read again. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Samwise Everquest Run and Gun Mercenary Corps Forsaken Asylum 133	Posted - 2015.04.21 20:26:57 - [292] - Quote [quote=alexclone1] Here is my tldr: A pvp alliance can war dec just about everyone, at once, for an unlimited amount of time because the costs are so low. Raise the costs. Welcome back to the sandbox. As someone who has been a defender and now an aggressor in highsec wars, I can relate to both sides of the argument. I have a lot to say on the matter but unfortunately I got to go. I do have a question though. Why were you wardeced? Who were you wardeced by? And did you talk to them about surrender? I've seen wars last less than 15 minutes because the corp contacted said mercs and worked out a deal. I am not saying bend over and take it while handing over all your ISK but you would be surprised how fair some of the merc alliance CEOs are. Don't talk ****, just convo them and plea you case. In a game centered around politics and social interaction, people forget to simply talk things over. Run and Gun Mercenary Corps looking for work. Pras Phil.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12736	Posted - 2015.04.21 20:30:09 - [293] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Well, except for when you do, which tends to be most of the players most of the time, and probably a few of the players all of the time. Don't be obtuse. I meant that the possibility of risk and loss exists, and you know it. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Mike Adoulin Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters 1247	Posted - 2015.04.21 20:50:47 - [294] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Hello, i am posting with an alt. I stopped reading. Ding. Calling the OP an unmitigated liar, as anybody that is too gutless to post with their main has obviously done nothing of note. Also, OP, wardecs ARE broken. The reason the mercs have all formed large (relatively) alliances (Marmite, Forsaken, etc) is that the wardec costs are so hi now, small merc/pirate corps simpy aren't viable. And it doesn't help that dec evasion is now blessed by CCP , instead of being a bannable offense, like it used to be. So have CCP raise wardec prices again. Watch even more hisec pvpers jump into the large merc alliances. Also, OP, what stopped your no-doubt highly profitable mining/indy corp from hiring a big merc alliance to defend you, eh? Hmmm? Ally mechanics mean they don't have to do an outbound wardec, and its usually cheaper to hire them as allies, last time I checked. ........... Yeah, that's what I thought. Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg. Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Akirei Scytale Okami Syndicate 3489	Posted - 2015.04.21 20:58:22 - [295] - Quote Mr Deleted wrote: highsec is overrated, lowsec is where its at, and it solves the war deccing problems, all the war deccers cant go to lowsec, thats where real fights are Cute, but you're only halfway there. Real PvP doesn't punish you for fighting and lets you use all the toys. @OP: You're full of **** till you post with the main that did the things you claim to have done.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2161	Posted - 2015.04.21 21:34:52 - [296] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: buff war decs to the price to flip a corp. This is an example of someone who doesnt have the ability to view life from another's perspective. There are others that want to play the game in their own way. Not your way. There is a whole universe of pvp opportunities. Why would you want to further buff high sec war mechanics? You shouldn't think about it in terms of buffs and nerfs. You should think about it in terms of making highsec not suck **** for everyone involved. The current situation with massive, extremely powerful wardec entities and other groups just being totally defenseless and incredibly passive isn't fun for anyone. It's not fun for the carebears who feel like they can't win a fight because numbers, it's not fun for the aggressors who don't get a fight and it's not fun for the random person flying through space who doesn't see any interesting things happening in the space he's passing through. What we should all want as players is for the mechanics to be good, not for them to benefit our personal playstyle. Right now the ally system massively benefits me and people like me, but it's hugely damaging to the general accessibility of wars to the general populace, subsequently I think it needs to be changed. Reducing the cost of wars, specifically for corporations against other corporations (vice against or between alliances) wouldn't benefit me at all, but it would allow for smaller groups to exist again and subsequently give carebears a better chance to effectively defend themselves. The carebear approach to proposing war changes is inherently to make them more expensive and more difficult to execute, that will only widen the gap between the aggressors and defenders and make the current issues more extreme.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 586	Posted - 2015.04.21 21:56:58 - [297] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: alexclone1 wrote: buff war decs to the price to flip a corp. This is an example of someone who doesnt have the ability to view life from another's perspective. There are others that want to play the game in their own way. Not your way. There is a whole universe of pvp opportunities. Why would you want to further buff high sec war mechanics? You shouldn't think about it in terms of buffs and nerfs. You should think about it in terms of making highsec not suck ** for everyone involved. The current situation with massive, extremely powerful wardec entities and other groups just being totally defenseless and incredibly passive isn't fun for anyone. It's not fun for the carebears who feel like they can't win a fight because numbers, it's not fun for the aggressors who don't get a fight and it's not fun for the random person flying through space who doesn't see any interesting things happening in the space he's passing through. What we should all want as players is for the mechanics to be good, not for them to benefit our personal playstyle**. Right now the ally system massively benefits me and people like me, but it's hugely damaging to the general accessibility of wars to the general populace, subsequently I think it needs to be changed. Reducing the cost of wars, specifically for corporations against other corporations (vice against or between alliances) wouldn't benefit me at all, but it would allow for smaller groups to exist again and subsequently give carebears a better chance to effectively defend themselves. The carebear approach to proposing war changes is inherently to make them more expensive and more difficult to execute, that will only widen the gap between the aggressors and defenders and make the current issues more extreme. Quoting for truth. Current mechanics suck, there needs to be some incentive for the defender to WANT to fight. Currently it is far easier to drop a corp and create a new one than actually fighting.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12740	Posted - 2015.04.21 22:52:08 - [298] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Quoting for truth. Current mechanics suck, there needs to be some incentive for the defender to WANT to fight. Currently it is far easier to drop a corp and create a new one than actually fighting. My thoughts on the matter are as follows: First, severe nerfs to NPC corps. Only player corps should be capable of using L4 mission agents and receive LP from Incursions, and NPC corp players older than 90 days have an additional 10% tax on top of normal. If being in a player corp is the optimal choice for generating personal income, then being in a corp becomes something worth fighting for. That will never happen so long as NPC corps have so few functional penalties/limitations. Doing this also takes a step towards rebalancing risk vs reward, since NPC corps give up almost nothing in exchange for a huge buff to safety. Secondly, the dec dodge exploit must be either removed or harshly punished. There are a number of ways this can be done, and I personally favor the generation of killrights against a player who drops to an NPC corp during an active war(or anyone who rejoins a player corp within 72 hours after having dropped, perhaps). Regardless, the ability to fold a corp and make it over again in a matter of minutes must be removed. Therefore, corp creation price should increase, and possibly have a cooldown associated with specific characters creating a corporation after having left one. Furthermore, any corp that dissolves during an active war has it's name and corp ticker suspended, and given to the attacking corp as a trophy. Thirdly, player corps would receive the ability to improve mission LP rewards in a specific consellation via a starbase module. Only one can exist per constellation, so if you want the bonus you have to destroy the starbase of the current owner. The map would show which corp controlls the module, and what system it is located in. This incentivizes PvE corps to fight amongst themselves for better territory, as well as give player corps reasons to have assets in space for reasons besides industry and manufacturing. To summarize: Only player corps can access L4 missions or receive LP from incursions. NPC corp taxes are raised +10% for players over 90 days old. Killrights generated against dec dodging. Corps that dissolve during an active war have their names and ticker lost, given to the attacker as a trophy. Corp creation price increase. Corp creation cooldown after leaving a player corp. Highsec ESS as a starbase module, one per constellation. Boosts LP given from mission rewards to corp members. And then, player corps are worth fighting for. The defender has a stake in the game, the rewards that come with being in a player corp. The typical highsec corps also have a reason to fight one another, for control of the constellation. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2890	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:18:22 - [299] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: The solution is having those seasoned, dedicated pvpers as part of your team. The industrialists gain the benefit of protection (and I'm talking real protection, as in "wait a second, did these guys just put a dozen Vindicators on the field? I thought we were going to kill Retrievers?"), and the pvpers get the benefit of cheaper stuff, and maybe having someone else cover their war fees for a change. And that last part I typed there? It's important. The trick to retaining these pvpers isn't just helping them out financially, but actually allowing them to operate how they want, under their own rules. Then they can go out and do the same pvp they would have done on their own, while the industrialists do their own thing. No one has to bleed their eyes out watching miners mine for twelve. Meanwhile, the non-rubbish killboard stats show everyone that you're a hard target, and no one ever dares to ** with you. But all the time they are away doing their PvP, war targets get to roam free stomping all over your PvE players. That's no different to how right now you can hire mercs who will sometimes be there, which is pretty much useless in most cases. AS for them being scared off, these big wardec alliance attack each other, pure PvP focused corps. they also attack groups like RvB, a PvP focused group with thousands of players. I don't think most of them would be scared off because your players also kill stuff. If anything it's a jackpot. they get both carebears and gudfites in the same dec fee! You have no clue what you're talking about. Zero. It's all conjecture about various playstyles with which you have no experience, and an inherent unfamiliarity. And until you do acquire this experience and familiarity, this stuff you say amounts to nothing more than sensationalist panic-mongering. alexclone1 wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any** problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Because those that war dec only want to shoot at miners? And not engage in actual pvp? My point isnt that an industrial corp shouldnt be war dec'd at all. But currently the ability for 300+ people to war dec AT ONCE and PERMANENTLY does seem right. How is a corp supposed to grow to a point where it can defend itself? That's very easy to answer: by not presenting itself as a target. Perform a little experiment, if you can. Start up two new corporations. In the first one, recruit as quickly as possible (take everyone with a pulse who's willing to fit a strip miner), advertise yourself plainly, and stick to a strict regimen of pve activities. In the second one, recruit slower and make sure to do proper background checks, don't advertise yourself as a purely industrial corporation, and finally, initiate two three outgoing wars when you start up, and then one or two every month or so. Then tell us all which of the two corporations gets swarmed with war declarations. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Paranoid Loyd 4819	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:22:24 - [300] - Quote Uh oh. DC vs LK Let's get it on! "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!!!

Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2893	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:57:09 - [301] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Controversial in null sec. And i didnt use my null sec character to create a high sec corp. Its difficult to keep a 'low profile' in an industry corp when 30+ peeps are online at once. Please educate me about these 'good relations' between industrial corps and merc alliances. Does 'good relations' mean having to pay a ransom constantly? "Hey, would you guys be interested in a long-term ally relationship if we provide a modest retainer and give you other benefits, such as discounts on various things we produce, and intel on our industrial competitors in the area?" Obviously you search for someone reliable before trying this instead of just choosing a random person in local, but that's literally all it takes. alexclone1 wrote: exactly. War decs are good. Industrial corps should be war dec'd. But the current mechanic allowing just about everyone, at once, to wardec a corp that already has 5 war decs against it makes no sense. And if your corp is active, and dudes die (which happens in wardecs) then they constantly become renewed. Esentially your only option is to log out for a week and pray they dont renew. 30 vs 300 just isnt viable. Especially when the costs of said war dec are minimal. Edit: This is high sec. Not null sec. In null sec you wave all right to things being fair because there are no npc faction/mechanics protecting you. Its pure politics. In high sec, you have a pay a fee to the npc faction (not shoot on site) and that is the particular mechanic that is broken imo. The costs need to be higher. If you wanted to war dec someone, it should be because they REALLY pissed you off. Not because you want to shoot at miners. The wars in which your group of 30 is being attacked by a group of 300 amount to nothing more than the inability to access the main trade hubs without alts. These are blanket declarations, and the people putting them out aren't targeting you individually. It's small groups like mine (less than five active players) that you have to worry about actually hunting you. But hey, it's just five of us, and thirty of you. You should have no problem putting us in our place, right? Hypothetically speaking. alexclone1 wrote: Lets step through this. So lets say you have an active 100 man high sec corp with 40 people online at once. You get wardec'd (it isnt 'very rare' as you claim) and hundreds of pilots from experienced war decers show up to your hq system. They know where you rat (agent finder) they know where you mine (neutral cloaky alts), ect. So what happens? They put a cloaky alt in your system, watch your corpies undock to do a mission, wait 1j over and blap em. You decide to put your own cloaky alts to watch their cloaky alts. You warp to the gate (opposite gate is clear), you jump and then wt's log in, and blap you. You try to mine, war targets log in and blap you. The point is, no matter how careful you are; experienced pvpers have been doing this for YEARS. Im not against these mechanics. Im simply against the cost amount of what it takes to war dec a corp/alliance Once again, this never happens. No one is going to bring in hundreds of players (there's only a few hundred high-sec warriors to begin this - it's a very small community) to solely focus on the forty guys in your corporation. Unless, of course, you choose to live in a hub, or very close to one. Maybe Dodixie isn't a great place to set up your base of operations? The point is, hundreds of mean griefers showing up isn't an issue, never has been, and never will be. Now, one or two might show up, sure; but if you can't deal with one or two players showing up for some Retriever kill lulz while outnumbering them 20:1, then you don't deserve to run your own hundred-man industrial corporation. Once again, you should be more worried about the smaller groups of dedicated hunters, like myself. But even then, you still outnumber us ten to one. Do the math. alexclone1 wrote: - lets talk about 'the bigger you are'. Your logic SHOULD play out. So lets say you get a war dec, and your corp fights well. That war decing corp calls in buddies, who call in buddies because "holy cow an industrial corp that will fight". Due to the low costs, you now have 5 war decs and hundreds of pilots looking for blood. Tell me, how does one recruit to get bigger when your corp cant even undock from station? That's not how it works at all. If a high-sec warrior finds the golden goose of industrial war targets, he's not going to want to share it with anyone. The only way you can force yourself into getting swarmed is by running your mouth in local telling your enemies about how MLG PRO you are. alexclone1 wrote: You are assuming that dec limits or number limits is my solution. I have posted multiple times that COST OF THE WARDEC is the solution. If 5 corps war dec me, at least have the satisfaction of knowing that they are paying out the nose to do it. Please make an attempt not to be so hostile without reading previous posts. Clearly im talking to a pilot of whom i have been having a conversation the last few pages. So you want to be able to run your mouth off to people, negatively affect them in various ways (such as interfering with them in space or on the market), hoard moons and other critical resources, and then also make them pay absurd amounts of money when they try to do something about it? I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2893	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:15:10 - [302] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: My 'flawed' arguement was a game mechanic for a decade. Since then industrial corp numbers are down in high sec due to the vast number of war decs that any corp can obtain simply by being active. In fact, i would welcome a ccp representative to comment about industrial corp numbers compared from this year to 2012 and before. Source? Because as someone who does the whole war thing on a constant basis, it feels to me like there's more targets, not less. alexclone1 wrote: I do know that activity on the client is much lower now than pre war dec changes. I know of dozen of people i used to play with quit after the months of continuous war decs knowing that war decs were dirt cheap and would never stop. Everyone knows that the vast majority of eve online players were high sec industrials. Not sure what demographic is the most popular now... Point being is that an entire way to play was removed so that griefers could war dec at will. Call me a carebear, but ive alarmclocked 4am for 2 months straight to shoot at russians in paragon soul. Ive spent much more time pvping than i have mining. And I felt that in regards to low/null sec - that is pretty fair. High sec is catered to the griefers since 2013, and the game is not better for it. If you look at Chribba's EVE population chart, you'll see that the game was growing at a stable, high rate back when wars only cost two million ISK to launch from a corporation, and dec-dodging was considered an exploit of game mechanics. What way to play was removed? You'll need to elaborate on that. alexclone1 wrote: Obviously the inferno war changes are the problem. War decs used to DOUBLE after every war dec. The first 2 were pretty cheap (50m, then 100m isk). This would allow the small guys to war dec, and at the same time ensure that too many corps couldnt pile in on an industrial corp at once. And back then, the entire system could be gotten around by prepaying for a set of wars for two weeks, and then letting them all lapse for a day before starting them up again. alexclone1 wrote: You are the ceo of a corp. It grows to 50 pilots and you take them out to low sec on the weekends to kill pirates and you do well. You get war dec'd, and your corp does well. The next day another war dec... no big deal. The next another war dec, you decide that now you are outnumbered and so you will only take engagements that you can win/ do quick drive bys. The next day another alliance war decs you... word is getting around that you will actually fight! The next day another war dec, you are now camped in station. Whats your next play? Once again, this doesn't happen. Multiple wars are usually incidental, and while many of them can happen at the same time, it's a relatively rare event. We high-sec hardmen are greedy, and don't want to share profitable prey with anyone else. You'd know this, if you actually had experience with our play style, as opposed to merely claiming that you do. alexclone1 wrote: You forgot that you are the ceo of an industrial corp. Most your memebers are around 10m sp with at half being in mining skills. Logis and Vexor Navy issues are not an option except from your more experienced players, which arent many. How did you get your fleet out of the station? Sounds like you should have balanced your corporate roster by recruiting some pvp-oriented players as well, instead of going full derp with pure miners. Critical failure has already occurred during the initial planning stages, way before you have to undock. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2894	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:40:06 - [303] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Currently it is war dec hot and heavy will little financial consequence There's also little financial consequence to re-rolling a corporation. Only two million ISK in fact. You're willing to create a system in which it costs someone hundreds of millions to start a war with you, which you can nullify within fifteen minutes by starting a new corporation and moving all of your members to it (without any delay due to recent changes, might I add)? Are you willing to address this imbalance as well, or do you only want war prices to be raised? alexclone1 wrote: buff war decs to the price to flip a corp. This is an example of someone who doesnt have the ability to view life from another's perspective. There are others that want to play the game in their own way. Not your way. There is a whole universe of pvp opportunities. Why would you want to further buff high sec war mechanics? Does that "own way" involve being left alone to do your thing, which is mainly impacting others in an economic fashion, without yourself being impacted by others? Why should this be the case in EVE? "Me want" isn't a good answer to give here; you'll need to be specific and logical, and tell us exactly why we should remove conflict from a game about conflict. Oh, and, "because it's a fun part of the game that exists for a reason." Good enough for you? ISD Ezwal wrote: Options, possibilities, choices....rules. You know what? Given the direction this thread is going, I opt to do the following as last resort: This thread has been moved to Crime & Punishment. It's okay, we're familiar with this clever little tactic as well. Wouldn't want all those potential customers reading about the mean griefer sociopaths in GD, would we now? alexclone1 wrote: I JUST TOLD YOU MY MAIN. READ UP. FFS Seriously, what is your malfunction? Post from it and say that "alexclone1" is your alt. Problem would be solved. Kaarous Aldurald wrote: To summarize: Only player corps can access L4 missions or receive LP from incursions. NPC corp taxes are raised +10% for players over 90 days old. Killrights generated against dec dodging. Corps that dissolve during an active war have their names and ticker lost, given to the attacker as a trophy. Corp creation price increase. Corp creation cooldown after leaving a player corp. Highsec ESS as a starbase module, one per constellation. Boosts LP given from mission rewards to corp members. And then, player corps are worth fighting for. The defender has a stake in the game, the rewards that come with being in a player corp. The typical highsec corps also have a reason to fight one another, for control of the constellation. Let's be realistic, none of that will ever happen, aside maybe from the very last thing. In fact, CCP's probably going to do the exact opposite of what you proposed. My personal estimate of awox removal in 2015 was almost right on the nose. I've said in the past that I expect them to neuter wars by late 2015 or early/middle 2016, and I'm sticking with that. I'm expecting a toggle. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2169	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:46:00 - [304] - Quote Crime and punishment isn't even the appropriate subforum for this thread. Warfare and Tactics would have made more sense.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12753	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:47:21 - [305] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Let's be realistic, none of that will ever happen, aside maybe from the very last thing. In fact, CCP's probably going to do the exact opposite of what you proposed. My personal estimate of awox removal in 2015 was almost right on the nose. I've said in the past that I expect them to neuter wars by late 2015 or early/middle 2016, and I'm sticking with that. I'm expecting a toggle. If they want to kill their own game, that's fine with me. They've got the data themselves, conflict is what makes people stay in EVE Online. If they want to ignore the mandate granted by that data and turn this game into Trammel, they can be my guest, and I'll happily watch them die. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 335	Posted - 2015.04.22 00:49:01 - [306] - Quote Welcome to Crime and Punishment. And on behalf of everybody here let me say Post with your main or GTFO. Alt posts are not accepted here Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2894	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:06:53 - [307] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Let's be realistic, none of that will ever happen, aside maybe from the very last thing. In fact, CCP's probably going to do the exact opposite of what you proposed. My personal estimate of awox removal in 2015 was almost right on the nose. I've said in the past that I expect them to neuter wars by late 2015 or early/middle 2016, and I'm sticking with that. I'm expecting a toggle. If they want to kill their own game, that's fine with me. They've got the data themselves, conflict is what makes people stay in EVE Online. If they want to ignore the mandate granted by that data and turn this game into Trammel, they can be my guest, and I'll happily watch them die. Corporations tend to bury their heads in the sand while chasing the little short-term profit bunnies. Would we have had the changes we've had over the past few years if CCP wasn't trying to turn this game into something at least slightly different from what was originally envisioned? The banner ad for Tiamat was "Take control of friendly fire!" How big of a clue do we need before we come to terms with the reality of the situation? I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1401	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:14:34 - [308] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Let's be realistic, none of that will ever happen, aside maybe from the very last thing. In fact, CCP's probably going to do the exact opposite of what you proposed. My personal estimate of awox removal in 2015 was almost right on the nose. I've said in the past that I expect them to neuter wars by late 2015 or early/middle 2016, and I'm sticking with that. I'm expecting a toggle. If they want to kill their own game, that's fine with me. They've got the data themselves, conflict is what makes people stay in EVE Online. If they want to ignore the mandate granted by that data and turn this game into Trammel, they can be my guest, and I'll happily watch them die. Corporations tend to bury their heads in the sand while chasing the little short-term profit bunnies. Would we have had the changes we've had over the past few years if CCP wasn't trying to turn this game into something at least slightly different from what was originally envisioned? The banner ad for Tiamat was "Take control of friendly fire!" How big of a clue do we need before we come to terms with the reality of the situation? It's funny because the reasoning was actually the opposite of short term profit motivations. The goal was and is to grow long term profits by turning new players into long term players by making recruiting more palatable. We've already seen the evidence of players getting into corps sticking around longer so I'm not sure how this move translates to the reasoning you describe.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12754	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:18:23 - [309] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: It's funny because the reasoning was actually the opposite of short term profit motivations. The goal was and is to grow long term profits by turning new players into long term players by making recruiting more palatable. And then they discovered that the boring, banality incarnate PvE "content" doesn't actually make people stick around and keep paying for their sub. Turns out, it just bores them to death, while people who are engaged in conflict are far more likely to stick around. Whoops. Quote: We've already seen the evidence of players getting into corps sticking around longer so I'm not sure how this move translates to the reasoning you describe. Citation needed, nevermind I'd love some proof that, if true, it's not a really bad thing. The typical highsec corp is poison, and anything that enables them to ruin more newbies is a bad thing. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 246	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:20:33 - [310] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready? As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them. Why do you think this is? Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm? Edit: Quote: Ive done it all: Build caps; Military Director for a Large Sov holding allaince; FC for small gang leet pvp low sec; FC for high skilled high sec mercs Yeah uh, I'm not buying it. You don't see the logical conclusion of this argument. You want PvP focused bittervets with a half dozen alts apiece to be able to kick the **** out of everyone else, anywhere in the game. And you don't see why this is bad. No, what I want is you people to understand that I've earned my right to mine and run missions in peace. It wasn't given to me for free. You've earned nothing. The simple fact that you've invested an inordinate amount of time and money into this computer game does not entitle you to risk free content. You might aswell ask for a 1 trillion ISK instant kill button, because it's the same logic. If you remove the ability to evade wardecs, you will render highsec meaningless because the bittervets with huge piles of ISK will wardec everyone. I don't get it, I just don't understand what you want short of making highsec into lowsec for those with the ISK stacks to wardec spam.

Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12754	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:24:09 - [311] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: You've earned nothing. The simple fact that you've invested an inordinate amount of time and money into this computer game does not entitle you to risk free content. You might aswell ask for a 1 trillion ISK instant kill button, because it's the same logic. Whoosh. You missed the point of their statement entirely. They earn being safe, by actually doing things, by watching local, by being aligned, by actually evading other players. Not by abusing loopholes in the corp creation system. Quote: If you remove the ability to evade wardecs, you will render highsec meaningless because the bittervets with huge piles of ISK will wardec everyone. Gosh, I hope so. There is nothing worse for the game than the stagnation and stifling on conflict that highsec creates. Quote: I don't get it, I just don't understand what you want short of making highsec into lowsec for those with the ISK stacks to wardec spam. Maybe not boring people to death? Maybe incentivize some form of gameplay besides the very worst PvE "content" in the entire MMO industry? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2896	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:32:59 - [312] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Corporations tend to bury their heads in the sand while chasing the little short-term profit bunnies. Would we have had the changes we've had over the past few years if CCP wasn't trying to turn this game into something at least slightly different from what was originally envisioned? The banner ad for Tiamat was "Take control of friendly fire!" How big of a clue do we need before we come to terms with the reality of the situation? It's funny because the reasoning was actually the opposite of short term profit motivations. The goal was and is to grow long term profits by turning new players into long term players by making recruiting more palatable. We've already seen the evidence of players getting into corps sticking around longer so I'm not sure how this move translates to the reasoning you describe. http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility Juxtapose that chart with a dated list of changes CCP began implementing when they decided to start doing their safety dance right around 2010. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 335	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:33:07 - [313] - Quote To add to this if you have 6 active wardecs against you at once your lads are either pissing ppl off or consistently losing shiny stuff. Adapt to it or die. Delete the weak - Tora Bushido Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1402	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:45:42 - [314] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: And then they discovered that the boring, banality incarnate PvE "content" doesn't actually make people stick around and keep paying for their sub. Turns out, it just bores them to death, while people who are engaged in conflict are far more likely to stick around. Whoops. Good thing we weren't talking about PvE content in that statement. We were talking about recruitment which doesn't predispose someone to access to any form of content. there isn't any connection between this and the prior conversation so I'll just leave it alone. Quote: Citation needed, nevermind I'd love some proof that, if true, it's not a really bad thing. The typical highsec corp is poison, and anything that enables them to ruin more newbies is a bad thing. I'll look for quotes but I'm pretty sure it's come up on a few occasions alongside the general themes of social interactions. This isn't intended to say all corps are beneficial corps, but I'd be willing to be the ones that stay in NPC corps tend to leave sooner on average than those that don't.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12754	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:52:10 - [315] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Good thing we weren't talking about PvE content in that statement. No, just a poorly rationalized change that enables it entirely too much. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1402	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:52:17 - [316] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Corporations tend to bury their heads in the sand while chasing the little short-term profit bunnies. Would we have had the changes we've had over the past few years if CCP wasn't trying to turn this game into something at least slightly different from what was originally envisioned? The banner ad for Tiamat was "Take control of friendly fire!" How big of a clue do we need before we come to terms with the reality of the situation? It's funny because the reasoning was actually the opposite of short term profit motivations. The goal was and is to grow long term profits by turning new players into long term players by making recruiting more palatable. We've already seen the evidence of players getting into corps sticking around longer so I'm not sure how this move translates to the reasoning you describe. http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility Juxtapose that chart with a dated list of changes CCP began implementing when they decided to start doing their safety dance right around 2010. That doesn't seem a fair evaluation since changes of that nature were almost never made in isolation. Unless you have reason to believe those events are the strongest motivators/demotivators of play we're looking at a set of data that's likely more noise than signal for your point.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1402	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:55:42 - [317] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Good thing we weren't talking about PvE content in that statement. No, just a poorly rationalized change that enables it entirely too much. It was already enabled for the most part by going unnoticed and not recruiting.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12756	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:02:04 - [318] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: It was already enabled for the most part by going unnoticed and not recruiting. Except that people were recruiting. That was the big lie. If they weren't recruiting, then how could I awox ten corps in a row before deleting an alt? How were people whining about it at all, if people weren't recruiting? All this change did was make the big, fat bears bigger and fatter and safer. And considering those are the very people killing the game in the first place, I feel confident in saying that it was a net negative change. If they want more people in player corps, they need to nerf NPC corps, not make highsec more bloated with safety. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2899	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:07:36 - [319] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility Juxtapose that chart with a dated list of changes CCP began implementing when they decided to start doing their safety dance right around 2010. That doesn't seem a fair evaluation since changes of that nature were almost never made in isolation. Unless you have reason to believe those events are the strongest motivators/demotivators of play we're looking at a set of data that's likely more noise than signal for your point. I do. Not much changed in EVE throughout those years, save for regular minor addition of content (this was post-wormholes), balancing of ships and modules, and a constant stream of safety-oriented changes toward EVE's core gameplay. Only now do we have non-safety-related changes that are also shaking things up, mostly in the form of the jump drive and sovereignty stuff. EVE was becoming safer, and stopped growing. I firmly believe that there's a direct relationship of causation between the two. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1402	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:11:52 - [320] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: It was already enabled for the most part by going unnoticed and not recruiting. Except that people were recruiting. That was the big lie. If they weren't recruiting, then how could I awox ten corps in a row before deleting an alt? How were people whining about it at all, if people weren't recruiting? All this change did was make the big, fat bears bigger and fatter and safer. And considering those are the very people killing the game in the first place, I feel confident in saying that it was a net negative change. If they want more people in player corps, they need to nerf NPC corps, not make highsec more bloated with safety. Some were yes, not everyone was, not everyone is. Lets step away from the idea of everyone moving in unison for a moment since we should know that to be demonstrably false. Personally I've seen awox complaints less often than gank complaints and yet ganks are at last comment on the matter actually near a low point. Does that mean people don't die daily to ganks? No. Does that mean the anecdotal accounts of an awoxer paint the post accurate picture? Again, likely no. The point is anyone who wanted security could get it and a number did and do by removing recruitment from a corp equation and/or removing themselves from the corp equation. Nerfing NPC corps doesn't rectify this either. 1 man corps are a thing.

Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12757	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:16:23 - [321] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Some were yes, not everyone was, not everyone is. Lets step away from the idea of everyone moving in unison for a moment since we should know that to be demonstrably false. Personally I've seen awox complaints less often than gank complaints and yet ganks are at last comment on the matter actually near a low point. That's because it's become so infrequent that it's a notable event. As for awoxing, now that it basically doesn't happen at all, the whine squad moved on to something else, as this thread demonstrates so nicely for us. Do you seriously expect me to believe that these people aren't pushing for Trammel? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 20	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:17:19 - [322] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Crime and punishment isn't even the appropriate subforum for this thread. Warfare and Tactics would have made more sense. a mod moved it here. you can read about it on page 12. used to be in general chat. I just got this eve mail, ill leave it here: Hey Man, I saw all the troll flamers in your forum post and just wanted to let you know I 100% agree with you. The wardec mechanics have ruined this game. It only plays in the favors of people who like to grief other people; I prefer to play eve as I am in real life, I don't hide behind internet firewalls and pretend to be someone I am not. I enjoyed recruiting new players and teaching them the ropes but it is nearly impossible now because even a recruitment ad will get you a wardec. I have come up with ways to write the ad to reduce potential wardecs but then you got yourself going through so many loops and so much fewer applicants that it becomes a heavy task. I think the real issue at hand is a lack of content... The way I see things is that most of these griefers are people that have played out the game and they have nothing interesting to do anymore other than grief other players. Sadly to say this is usually the sign of a MMO starting to die. The attitudes of the griefers is hypocritical and self righteous, there is absolutely no way to win an argument with them. I now reside in null sec which actually feels safer than high sec these days. I used to have a 200+ man corp, now I am left with OG players that rarely log on. One thing is for sure, I will not let those griefers keep me from enjoying the game and if CCP wont do anything about it I will just have to come up with some tactics to guard against the grief. One of my thoughts which I have not tried yet is to recruit and base the corporation out of a High Sec Island in null. There are plenty of agents to run all levels of missions and mods and ships can easily be shipped with a jump freighter. I think most griefers wont go out of their way to grief war targets in a high sec island in null. If you ever have any interest of teaming up or working out a plan to combat this crap let me know. Best of luck to you and fly safe o7
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12757	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:19:17 - [323] - Quote Post with your character in the carebear corp already. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 20	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:19:49 - [324] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: [quote=Demerius Xenocratus] Maybe not boring people to death? Maybe incentivize some form of gameplay besides the very worst PvE "content" in the entire MMO industry? You do realize ppl pve to make isk right? As a bitter vet, we tend have billions and not know how to spend it all. Some ppl WANT to pve. - i would like to request that the character above this post be removed from my thread as at this point he is clearly trolling. Thank you :)
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1402	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:24:03 - [325] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility Juxtapose that chart with a dated list of changes CCP began implementing when they decided to start doing their safety dance right around 2010. That doesn't seem a fair evaluation since changes of that nature were almost never made in isolation. Unless you have reason to believe those events are the strongest motivators/demotivators of play we're looking at a set of data that's likely more noise than signal for your point. I do. Not much changed in EVE throughout those years, save for regular minor addition of content (this was post-wormholes), balancing of ships and modules, and a constant stream of safety-oriented changes toward EVE's core gameplay. Only now do we have non-safety-related changes that are also shaking things up, mostly in the form of the jump drive and sovereignty stuff. EVE was becoming safer, and stopped growing. I firmly believe that there's a direct relationship of causation between the two. Dominion sov at the beginning of that period leading into the summer of rage which now leads into jump fatigue/fozzie sov. That's just a few highlights. Thing is this all hits like someone pulled a switch in 2010, it's not a slow growth decline. It just stops. That's not a result of gradual change. Also isn't the official line that the PCU isn't necessarily indicative of player subs?
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 335	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:24:54 - [326] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: Crime and punishment isn't even the appropriate subforum for this thread. Warfare and Tactics would have made more sense. Posting with an alt so nobody is reading as this is C&P not general chat Why bother at this point? Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2899	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:25:54 - [327] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: "One thing is for sure, I will not let those griefers keep me from enjoying the game and if CCP wont do anything about it I will just have to come up with some tactics to guard against the grief." And yet, if this person reversed the order of the steps he's willing to take, he wouldn't have a problem to begin with. This is the definition of the carebear mentality. Ask for the developers to implement restrictions on anyone who does something you don't like first, and if that fails, only then will they try to do something on their own (or most likely, quit). It's disgusting. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12759	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:26:21 - [328] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: You do realize ppl pve to make isk right? You do realize I don't care? Rampant isk generation is exactly why plex prices are so bloody high, because people are raking it in in highsec and not taking commensurate losses to keep inflation down. Quote: - i would like to request that the character above this post be removed from my thread as at this point he is clearly trolling. Thank you :) When you get down to it, the basic premise of your thread is flame bait, and you exposed that when you started ranting in all caps about how you want an old exploit patched back in. You're lucky Ezwal didn't just lock it instead of moving it here. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 20	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:27:08 - [329] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: Crime and punishment isn't even the appropriate subforum for this thread. Warfare and Tactics would have made more sense. Posting with an alt so nobody is reading as this is C&P not general chat Why bother at this point? facedesk an ISD member moved my thread from general chat to this sub forum. Take it up with him.
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 336	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:27:24 - [330] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: alexclone1 wrote: "One thing is for sure, I will not let those griefers keep me from enjoying the game and if CCP wont do anything about it I will just have to come up with some tactics to guard against the grief." And yet, if this person reversed the order of the steps he's willing to take, he wouldn't have a problem to begin with. This is the definition of the carebear mentality. Ask for the developers to implement restrictions on anyone who does something you don't like first, and if that fails, only then will they try to do something on their own (or most likely, quit). It's disgusting. Threaten to quit. Over and over and over and over again... Yet they are still here... Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1402	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:28:01 - [331] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Some were yes, not everyone was, not everyone is. Lets step away from the idea of everyone moving in unison for a moment since we should know that to be demonstrably false. Personally I've seen awox complaints less often than gank complaints and yet ganks are at last comment on the matter actually near a low point. That's because it's become so infrequent that it's a notable event. As for awoxing, now that it basically doesn't happen at all, the whine squad moved on to something else, as this thread demonstrates so nicely for us. Do you seriously expect me to believe that these people aren't pushing for Trammel? Whether the "whine squad" is or isn't wasn't the topic, but rather CCP's intentions of "short term gain" as DC proposed. Also the period referred to is pre-FF toggle, when awoxing was a thing, but still less prominent a complaint than ganking. This was because people were isolating assets like freighters from awoxing, as I stated, but couldn't afford the same safety from a gank with the same means.
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 336	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:35:05 - [332] - Quote alexclone1 wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: Crime and punishment isn't even the appropriate subforum for this thread. Warfare and Tactics would have made more sense. Posting with an alt so nobody is reading as this is C&P not general chat Why bother at this point? facedesk an ISD member moved my thread from general chat to this sub forum. Take it up with him. Again welcome to C&P. We hope you enjoy your stay. As you must be new here I'll Cut you soem slack and recognise this comment and provide you with the first commandment of C&P. 1. Thou Shalt post with thy Main or GTFO. I hope this clarifies why you will get ignored and be mercilessly trolled until you can follow this simple and quite liberating law of our fine forum. People who follow this rule tend to have a much better time here and find constructive conversation and help. People who hide behind forum alts well... I guess you know by now PS Post with your main here and ask for a constructive conversation and you will get one. I personally will make sure as long as you don't whine, moan, make demands or threaten to quit and use this 'Main' of yours that it stays (mostly) on topic and you may discover various tactics and strategies used by many players to counter wardecs and any other nefarious activities that those of us who call this forum home happen to use. PSS Make a new thread here with said 'Main' as this one will never get any of that due to it being created with a forum alt. Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
alexclone1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 20	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:38:10 - [333] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: alexclone1 wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: Crime and punishment isn't even the appropriate subforum for this thread. Warfare and Tactics would have made more sense. Posting with an alt so nobody is reading as this is C&P not general chat Why bother at this point? facedesk an ISD member moved my thread from general chat to this sub forum. Take it up with him. Again welcome to C&P. We hope you enjoy your stay. As you must be new here I'll Cut you soem slack and recognise this comment and provide you with the first commandment of C&P. 1. Thou Shalt post with thy Main or GTFO. I hope this clarifies why you will get ignored and be mercilessly trolled until you can follow this simple and quite liberating law of our fine forum. People who follow this rule tend to have a much better time here and find constructive conversation and help. People who hide behind forum alts well... I guess you know by now PS Post with your main here and ask for a constructive conversation and you will get one. I personally will make sure as long as you don't whine, moan, make demands or threaten to quit and use this 'Main' of yours that it stays (mostly) on topic and you may discover various tactics and strategies used by many players to counter wardecs and any other nefarious activities that those of us who call this forum home happen to use. PSS Make a new thread here with said 'Main' as this one will never get any of that due to it being created with a forum alt. just did. re-read the op. cheers.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2903	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:48:01 - [334] - Quote Even if you're being honest and mean well, you'll still have to post with those characters confirming your claim, otherwise it can seem like you're trying to pass some rage-wars on to players you dislike. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12759	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:53:04 - [335] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Even if you're being honest and mean well, you'll still have to post with those characters confirming your claim, otherwise it can seem like you're trying to pass some rage-wars on to players you dislike. That was my thought as well, especially considering a lot of the discussion seemed to refer to his wardecced corp in the present tense. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 336	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:59:42 - [336] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: PSS Make a new thread here with said 'Main' as this one will never get any of that due to it being created with a forum alt. This again. Anything you can't substantiate isn't worth anything here. Look forward to reading your new post with your old Character. Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2170	Posted - 2015.04.22 03:05:36 - [337] - Quote There's a reason why people who make claims about their personage but post with alts. It's entirely trivial to verify the claim made, and typically if it was verified the details of the situation can shed light on the subject matter. All alt posting does is make people question your credibility.
Steppa Musana Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.04.22 04:48:39 - [338] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: There's a reason why people who make claims about their personage but post with alts. It's entirely trivial to verify the claim made, and typically if it was verified the details of the situation can shed light on the subject matter. All alt posting does is make people question your credibility. Do you question the credibility of UAE, or Guy Concord's Cousin, or any of the CODE posters? Your kind don't even consider that those guys post with alts, let alone lend less credibility over it. And why should you, it doesn't fit your narrative, after all. Or maybe we should lend more credibility to guys that do post with their mains, okay. Lets take a look at our options in here. We got Kaarous, with his 51 kills total in 3 years, who hasn't shot something in 4 months. Oh, and weve got Destiny Corrupted, with his 185 kills total in 6 years, who hasn't shot something in 11 months. When it comes to PVP credibility, it doesn't get any better than this folks. Thats how these kinds of threads work. Find the posters who mouth breath the hardest, and you'll be sure to have found a bad killboard. Im just waiting on admiral root or Mike Adoulin to make their rounds in here, another couple of real credible posters right there.
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 337	Posted - 2015.04.22 05:01:12 - [339] - Quote Steppa Musana wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: There's a reason why people who make claims about their personage but post with alts. It's entirely trivial to verify the claim made, and typically if it was verified the details of the situation can shed light on the subject matter. All alt posting does is make people question your credibility. Forum Alt ramblings I'll humor you. UAE has never claimed to be a pvp'er... He claims to be defense counsel for people accused of misdeeds. he substantiates it with his posts. He is also alot of fun. CODE. posters post as themselves... that's all i got for that. I post with my main. I notice my credibility didn't get called into question here. Did my kill board not fit your narrative? Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2905	Posted - 2015.04.22 05:16:59 - [340] - Quote Steppa Musana wrote: Or maybe we should lend more credibility to guys that do post with their mains, okay. Lets take a look at our options in here. We got Kaarous, with his 51 kills total in 3 years, who hasn't shot something in 4 months. Oh, and weve got Destiny Corrupted, with his 185 kills total in 6 years, who hasn't shot something in 11 months. When it comes to PVP credibility, it doesn't get any better than this folks. I feel dirty just replying to this, but I checked, and this character has slightly over 700 kills, most of them being solo, and the rest in groups of 2-3 people. After about two years of inactivity, I'm still ranked in the top 10K on BC. I'm proud of my stats as someone who isn't very active, and when active, focuses efforts on getting kills for friends and corp members, instead of self-satisfaction. Furthermore, this is just one of my characters. At the moment, I'm very active on another one, and I'm more than willing to provide its name, on the condition that you post with your main. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 06:15:40 - [341] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Steppa Musana wrote: Or maybe we should lend more credibility to guys that do post with their mains, okay. Lets take a look at our options in here. We got Kaarous, with his 51 kills total in 3 years, who hasn't shot something in 4 months. Oh, and weve got Destiny Corrupted, with his 185 kills total in 6 years, who hasn't shot something in 11 months. When it comes to PVP credibility, it doesn't get any better than this folks. I feel dirty just replying to this, but I checked, and this character has slightly over 700 kills, most of them being solo, and the rest in groups of 2-3 people. After about two years of inactivity, I'm still ranked in the top 10K on BC. I'm proud of my stats as someone who isn't very active, and when active, focuses efforts on getting kills for friends and corp members, instead of self-satisfaction. Furthermore, this is just one of my characters. At the moment, I'm very active on another one, and I'm more than willing to provide its name, on the condition that you post with your main. 185 kills and 0 losses, I checked yesterday, I was looking for lost Blackbirds, disappointed I did not find any, but ho hum..., its good to see other people looking at the most active posters on these forums and seeing that they do not even play the game, so as this is my main, who is your main? I will say that some of the things you have said do resonate with me, you are a more thoughtful member of the HTFU group, though it still amazes me that you lot are unable to see the possibilities of the new structures in hisec in terms of conflict drivers, I happen to think that the possibilities of this with the current war dec system are very exciting. We just have to hope that CCP do not screw this up, I noted for example some of the HTFU crowd whining about not allowing these structures in hisec, and I stongly advice that you war dec corps resist this stupidity and also call for these structures to be fully allowed in hisec. To further ram home the disconnect Kaarous has been in CODE which does suicide ganks and not a single kill or loss since he has been in them, what does he do gank the station in Uedama? I saw him making threats here against the OP, I bet the OP is not quaking in his boots. Anyway its been fun pulling a few strings to try to get you lot to think about just how the new structures will put skin in the game and make things more interesting, but if you want to keep your hands over your eyes and ears that's your issue. Ella's Snack bar
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2907	Posted - 2015.04.22 06:49:31 - [342] - Quote Groan. I have exactly 587 kills in which I'm the final blower (heh), and another 200 or so in which I'm not. Just checked. I'm just gonna let these people parrot the 185 thing and tell me that I'm wrong until they finally figure it out on their own. With regard to structures, I don't have an opinion on that yet. Whether or not they'll be good for high-sec depends entirely on what they do. Most of the ideas presented in that dev blog seemed fine, but some stuff, such as d-scan blocking and especially the thing that allows changing the security status of a system, do not belong in high-sec (or even low-sec). I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5360	Posted - 2015.04.22 07:03:15 - [343] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: You have no clue what you're talking about. Zero. It's all conjecture about various playstyles with which you have no experience, and an inherent unfamiliarity. And until you do acquire this experience and familiarity, this stuff you say amounts to nothing more than sensationalist panic-mongering. Ah, the old "your opinion isn't allowed, cos I say so" argument. I have a good understanding of what I'm talking about, and I know for a fact that the current crappy wardec mechanics have led to a non-existence of large non-PvP focused groups who play from the corp (rather than using it as a contract pool like red-frog). And are you denying that competent wardec groups fight other competent wardec groups? At the end of the day, a PvE group with some PvPers is not going to suddenly be exempt from wars. They will in fact be quite attractive targets for anyone who wants a good fight that they are still likely to win. By the way, anyone know if Carrie-Anne Moss is still about and on the way with that proof yet? The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2908	Posted - 2015.04.22 07:20:30 - [344] - Quote You aren't allowed to have an opinion on an objective matter. The situations you describe are exceptions to the rule. Groups staffed with competent pvpers receive a fraction of the wars received by groups consisting solely of industrialists, and when they do receive them, the wars don't lead to the common outcomes associated with the latter; there are no disbandments, or tears, or angry posts on the forums. You're trying to build an argument around outliers, and are projecting your own issues with wars onto groups of players who don't have them. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5362	Posted - 2015.04.22 07:50:31 - [345] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: You aren't allowed to have an opinion on an objective matter. The situations you describe are exceptions to the rule. Groups staffed with competent pvpers receive a fraction of the wars received by groups consisting solely of industrialists, and when they do receive them, the wars don't lead to the common outcomes associated with the latter; there are no disbandments, or tears, or angry posts on the forums. You're trying to build an argument around outliers, and are projecting your own issues with wars onto groups of players who don't have them. WE're both allowed opinions. That's how this works. What you are saying isn't pure fact, it's simply your opinion on the mechanics as they stand. I'm not talking about outliers, there are ZERO large scale high sec corporations with a primary focus outside of PvP that don't use alts for everything. The corps you are talking about are primarily PvP corps who do some PvE. You even linked a null sec corp as an example of the corps you are talking about. As for my issues, I have no personal problems with wars. All of my highsec alts are in NPC corps, and when I need a char in a player corp that undocks (usually just for standing grinds without tax) it's a solo corp. My null players never enter highsec with the single exception of a couple of gankers during Burn Jita. Wardecs are irrelevant to anything I do. The problem with wardecs as they currently stand is that the mechanics are overly simplistic and promote mass war farming over meaningful declarations between groups who actually want to oppose each other. They are a way for certain war groups to switch off concord for select corporations so they can easily pad their killboards. I'd much prefer the entire system to be replaced with a system which promotes more balanced conflict, and where PvP players can extract income directly from PvE players in areas they dominate. This would mean a PvE player then has a choice of move elsewhere, fight for control themselves, or encourage someone else to fight for control for less of a cut. As it currently stands a PvE player has no reason to bother staying in a wardec because they can simply evade it. Removing evading isn't really an option, since you'd effectively be telling people who are unable to fight they aren't allowed to play because someone else paid 50m isk. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12762	Posted - 2015.04.22 07:56:19 - [346] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: They are a way for certain war groups to switch off concord That's what it's for. See, even CCP can't really deny that highsec is bad for the game, and that Concord's present state was a mistake. But since they also, more than almost anything else, cave in to whining, they can't just savagely nerf Concord like they should. So we have wars, where at the cost of contributing to the isk sink, you can make Concord go away against certain people. Wars exist to mitigate the mechanics that never should have existed in the first place. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 07:59:18 - [347] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Groan. I have exactly 587 kills in which I'm the final blower (heh), and another 200 or so in which I'm not. Just checked. I'm just gonna let these people parrot the 185 thing and tell me that I'm wrong until they finally figure it out on their own. With regard to structures, I don't have an opinion on that yet. Whether or not they'll be good for high-sec depends entirely on what they do. Most of the ideas presented in that dev blog seemed fine, but some stuff, such as d-scan blocking and especially the thing that allows changing the security status of a system, do not belong in high-sec (or even low-sec). That is what it said on Zkill, though that site is buggy as hell so I will defer to your numbers, but while you have an active killboard, others that post all this HTFU rubbish don't. How many losses by the way? Of course the security status change is not one I would expect in hisec, D-scan blocking is, if people are happy with D-scan immune ships (I am not by the way) why not go the entire hog... The important thing is that people have to have skin in the game, if these structures give real benefits to the entities holding them then they will be worth having and therefore worth defending and one has to look at the war dec system meshing with that... I read C&P a lot to see who is doing what, I noted that Absolute Defiance had a fleet fight with Marmite with battleships which they all enjoyed and that was good to see, I still think running around blowing up noobs and shuttles and the like is really sad, but each to their own. For example I just watched Marmite do an ineffectual camp in Mad in a Svipul and a Cynabal on the Niarja gate, both are GTFO ships, they got bored after 20 minutes and logged. Then a single Marmite Vexor came through, went to Uedama, then a Foresaken cloaky Tengu did the rounds, I can barely stand the excitement, I was tempted by the Vexor, but as I have a heavy cold could not be bothered. The fun of war dec's... Ella's Snack bar
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2909	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:00:53 - [348] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: I'd much prefer the entire system to be replaced with a system which promotes more balanced conflict, and where PvP players can extract income directly from PvE players in areas they dominate. I would too. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:04:58 - [349] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: You aren't allowed to have an opinion on an objective matter. The situations you describe are exceptions to the rule. Groups staffed with competent pvpers receive a fraction of the wars received by groups consisting solely of industrialists, and when they do receive them, the wars don't lead to the common outcomes associated with the latter; there are no disbandments, or tears, or angry posts on the forums. You're trying to build an argument around outliers, and are projecting your own issues with wars onto groups of players who don't have them. We're both allowed opinions. That's how this works. What you are saying isn't pure fact, it's simply your opinion on the mechanics as they stand. I'm not talking about outliers, there are ZERO large scale high sec corporations with a primary focus outside of PvP that don't use alts for everything. The corps you are talking about are primarily PvP corps who do some PvE. You even linked a null sec corp as an example of the corps you are talking about. As for my issues, I have no personal problems with wars. All of my highsec alts are in NPC corps, and when I need a char in a player corp that undocks (usually just for standing grinds without tax) it's a solo corp. My null players never enter highsec with the single exception of a couple of gankers during Burn Jita. Wardecs are irrelevant to anything I do. The problem with wardecs as they currently stand is that the mechanics are overly simplistic and promote mass war farming over meaningful declarations between groups who actually want to oppose each other. They are a way for certain war groups to switch off concord for select corporations so they can easily pad their killboards. I'd much prefer the entire system to be replaced with a system which promotes more balanced conflict, and where PvP players can extract income directly from PvE players in areas they dominate. This would mean a PvE player then has a choice of move elsewhere, fight for control themselves, or encourage someone else to fight for control for less of a cut. As it currently stands a PvE player has no reason to bother staying in a wardec because they can simply evade it. Removing evading isn't really an option, since you'd effectively be telling people who are unable to fight they aren't allowed to play because someone else paid 50m isk. God I like you, you really tell it as it is, problem is that many of these people just are fixed into a dogma and cannot sit back and look at it objectively, I actually think that most of them want to see Eve die. The thing about Eve that makes it an interesting game is that it is more than just blowing things up and yet they fail to see it. Elite Dangerous is more fun to blow stuff up in, but it does not have the depth of Eve where it actually means something. You understand game balance, and explain it well even against the massed ranks of trolls on the Eve forums. Ella's Snack bar
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 348	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:06:42 - [350] - Quote Made a new post for ideas and not for whining. If you have any on how to fix it do it there. If you wanna dickfence (I do enjoy a good dickfence) keep it here. Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12764	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:09:25 - [351] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The thing about Eve that makes it an interesting game is that it is more than just blowing things up and yet they fail to see it. CCP's retention numbers disagree with you, just so you know. There's not nearly enough stuff getting blown up in highsec these days, and that needs to change. You can fluff for Lucas all you want, but both you and him stand squarely in the way of the game making real progress with subscription numbers and retention, and you do so in the name of the special snowflakes who aren't really playing the game in the first place anyway. I really think you actually want to see EVE die. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:10:38 - [352] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Made a new post for ideas and not for whining. If you have any on how to fix it do it there. If you wanna dickfence (I do enjoy a good dickfence) keep it here. Enjoy your echo chamber... Ella's Snack bar
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2909	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:13:38 - [353] - Quote POCOs were a good step in the proper direction. Unfortunately, they were implemented for a feature that's hard to make a lot of money from, and the penalties are easy to circumvent. Game would have been much more fun if belts and agents were locked behind acceleration gates that had to be fought over, and access managed by the controlling parties, usually sold for a cost. But CCP will never go through with something like this, because the bears will cry bloody murder that they can't make 100% of the possible profits at all times. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12764	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:15:45 - [354] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: POCOs were a good step in the proper direction. Unfortunately, they were implemented for a feature that's hard to make a lot of money from, and the penalties are easy to circumvent. Game would have been much more fun if belts and agents were locked behind acceleration gates that had to be fought over, and access managed by the controlling parties, usually sold for a cost. But CCP will never go through with something like this, because the bears will cry bloody murder that they can't make 100% of the possible profits at all times. Of course, lol. Their demands to turn off the parts of the game that they don't like know no bounds, whether they're hurting the game or not. That's the nature of selfishness. I can't turn off the market if I don't like it, why should they be allowed to turn off PvP? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:15:58 - [355] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The thing about Eve that makes it an interesting game is that it is more than just blowing things up and yet they fail to see it. CCP's retention numbers disagree with you, just so you know. There's not nearly enough stuff getting blown up in highsec these days, and that needs to change. You can fluff for Lucas all you want, but both you and him stand squarely in the way of the game making real progress with subscription numbers and retention, and you do so in the name of the special snowflakes who aren't really playing the game in the first place anyway. I really think you actually want to see EVE die. Its people like you who are killing Eve. The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left. Excuse me for pointing out a truth but your last kill was last year, you are currently sitting in a station in Uedama, the only special snowflake who is not playing is you. Personally it was good to see Absolute Defiance and Marmite have a go at each other, more please, and you are in CODE go and gank something FFS. Ella's Snack bar
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 350	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:17:46 - [356] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Made a new post for ideas and not for whining. If you have any on how to fix it do it there. If you wanna dickfence (I do enjoy a good dickfence) keep it here. Enjoy your echo chamber... Dickfencing for you I see. All me to parry That post is to weed out the useless posts like yours and mine on here so far and to be a forum of ideas And now for the riposte It may just work as it's in this forum and a call for ideas not a ***** from the OP onwards hidden behind meaningless mostly ignored forum ALT's. Its a palce for ideas, suggestions and discussion not for what... well for what you and I are doing here Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:20:06 - [357] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: POCOs were a good step in the proper direction. Unfortunately, they were implemented for a feature that's hard to make a lot of money from, and the penalties are easy to circumvent. Game would have been much more fun if belts and agents were locked behind acceleration gates that had to be fought over, and access managed by the controlling parties, usually sold for a cost. But CCP will never go through with something like this, because the bears will cry bloody murder that they can't make 100% of the possible profits at all times. Well actually that is an interesting idea, unlike you I would make the more attractive stuff like null sec ores behind such things in hisec , but it would be a good conflict driver. The agents will be available in certain structures, which I hope CCP do for hisec. I think your not so far apart from me, apart from the fact I feel that there is a place in Eve for people who just want to do their own thing and want them to stay in the game to keep the money rolling in for CCP. Ella's Snack bar
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:20:56 - [358] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Made a new post for ideas and not for whining. If you have any on how to fix it do it there. If you wanna dickfence (I do enjoy a good dickfence) keep it here. Enjoy your echo chamber... Dickfencing for you I see. All me to parry That post is to weed out the useless posts like yours and mine on here so far and to be a forum of ideas And now for the riposte It may just work as it's in this forum and a call for ideas not a ***** from the OP onwards hidden behind meaningless mostly ignored forum ALT's. Its a palce for ideas, suggestions and discussion not for what... well for what you and I are doing here Temper temper, as I said enjoy your echo chamber... Ella's Snack bar
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12764	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:20:56 - [359] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Its people like you who are killing Eve. The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left. This despite the verified fact that the people who get ganked or killed in a war are by far the most likely to resub and play for a longer time. Meanwhile, the people who just mine or shoot red crosses all day quit of boredom at a far higher rate. Looks like it's the exact opposite of what you're claiming, hmm? But hey, the truth doesn't matter to carebears, I learned that a long time ago. Gotta advance that narrative, even if God himself comes down to tell you that it's a lie. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 350	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:22:57 - [360] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Made a new post for ideas and not for whining. If you have any on how to fix it do it there. If you wanna dickfence (I do enjoy a good dickfence) keep it here. Enjoy your echo chamber... Dickfencing for you I see. All me to parry That post is to weed out the useless posts like yours and mine on here so far and to be a forum of ideas And now for the riposte It may just work as it's in this forum and a call for ideas not a ***** from the OP onwards hidden behind meaningless mostly ignored forum ALT's. Its a palce for ideas, suggestions and discussion not for what... well for what you and I are doing here Temper temper, as I said enjoy your echo chamber... You sir are not very good at dickfencing Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:24:16 - [361] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Its people like you who are killing Eve. The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left. This despite the verified fact that the people who get ganked or killed in a war are by far the most likely to resub and play for a longer time. Meanwhile, the people who just mine or shoot red crosses all day quit of boredom at a far higher rate. Looks like it's the exact opposite of what you're claiming, hmm? But hey, the truth doesn't matter to carebears, I learned that a long time ago. Gotta advance that narrative, even if God himself comes down to tell you that it's a lie. Oh god you are not quoting that again, it has already been proved that it is a very shallow analysis of 15 day old toons, this is why engaging with you is a waste of time and effort. Carebear ho hum, one who has done more PvP than you sarge... Ella's Snack bar
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:25:17 - [362] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: You sir are not very good at dickfencing Was that an echo I heard there... I see that you were in that battle with Absolute Defiance, was that fun? Ella's Snack bar
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12766	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:25:43 - [363] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Oh god you are not quoting that again, it has already been proved that it is a very shallow analysis of 15 day old toons, this is why engaging with you is a waste of time and effort. WIth what? Your Star Citizen anecdote? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1368	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:26:05 - [364] - Quote Wrong thread... This is the alt/trollbait one. /ignore or delete please. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:28:54 - [365] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Oh god you are not quoting that again, it has already been proved that it is a very shallow analysis of 15 day old toons, this is why engaging with you is a waste of time and effort. WIth what? Your Star Citizen anecdote? Small sample yes, but still and interesting result, personally I found doing that analysis on 15 day old trial accounts only relevant to 15 day trial accounts, but as I used to do statistical analysis at a very professional level you can ignore me... Ella's Snack bar
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12766	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:31:43 - [366] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Oh god you are not quoting that again, it has already been proved that it is a very shallow analysis of 15 day old toons, this is why engaging with you is a waste of time and effort. WIth what? Your Star Citizen anecdote? Small sample yes, but still and interesting result, personally I found doing that analysis on 15 day old trial accounts only relevant to 15 day trial accounts, but as I used to do statistical analysis at a very professional level you can ignore me... Forgive me if I put less credence in your complete lack of facts, than I do actual studies done by CCP themselves. I know you deny their veracity because you don't want them to be true, but that does not make them any less the truth. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2911	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:33:16 - [367] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The agents will be available in certain structures, which I hope CCP do for hisec. I think your not so far apart from me, apart from the fact I feel that there is a place in Eve for people who just want to do their own thing and want them to stay in the game to keep the money rolling in for CCP. I am 100% against anyone being able to avoid the game's standard forms of interaction. I don't care how many millions of dollars CCP can pull from the LCDs by giving them a pvp toggle; it's bad for the game. If they want to make a new game in which the meek don't have to worry about getting their stuff blown up, by all means they should. But EVE should stay it is, because it is the only such game out there. That, or give me a different game based on the principles that EVE was founded on. Then they can do whatever they want to this one. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:34:38 - [368] - Quote Danalee wrote: I think it's broken in a way that it lacks meaning. The way forward should in my opinion be a combination of things; - Having a CORP/Alliance shouldn't be as empty as it is. -> maybe each corp should have a structure by default? A home base of sorts? -> maybe the system where the structure resides could have a form of boosts of the cop's chosing? -> maybe destroying/entosising (is that a word?) this structure would mean defeat for the corp? -> maybe defeat would result in bad stuff happening to the corp? A fixed tax that goes to the winner untill the warfees are covered? dunno... ideas welcome. - NPC corps should be a thing for newbies only. Real newbies. - Wars should have goals for both parties and the fees should be adapted to those goals. D. The new structures as long as they do not get nerfed by the Grrr hisec brigade should result in people wanting to own them, however on the flip side those that cannot defend them should not bother, as people say in Eve, if you cannot defend it you do not deserve to have it. Those structures will have benefits including their own market, their own agents, maybe some boosts if the grrr hisec don't get in the way of that Losing an expensive structure is already a major defeat. NPC corps should continue as they are, because the game needs subs. The goal aspect will come with the structures, I was thinking that the a corp might setup a hub which can only be traded with by blues, if that hub gets attacked via a war dec then they pull in all their allies to defend it. I can see your thinking things through, good. Ella's Snack bar
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 894	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:38:00 - [369] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Its people like you who are killing Eve. The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left. Excuse me for pointing out a truth but your last kill was last year, you are currently sitting in a station in Uedama, the only special snowflake who is not playing is you. I don't want to get dragged down into the standard mud-slingling match that this thread has descended into, but I am curious why you believe this. For the last 5 years, CCP has dropped nerf after nerf onto highsec making it increasingly safe. Certainly it has never been safer, yet you claim that only now, when highsec is at peak safety that people are getting tired of being prey and leaving the game? Should they not have done that years ago? Do you at least think it is plausible that the trend to towards safety over recent years has made the game a less interesting place which is why subscriptions/players online has flatlined or decreased? Because from the direction CCP has taken lately (and CCP Seagull all but saying that) it is clear that CCP has concluded this and have been busy making nullsec and wormholes more dangerous places. It is only logical that they will continue this and highsec (and lowsec) is about to become at least a little more dangerous. I am not as pessimistic as Destiny Corrupted. CCP will not pass up on the opportunity to drive conflict with these new structures and they (or at least the most lucrative of them) will be like POCOs unable to be taken down during a war. Pure industrial corps will have a harder time then ever competing while hiding behind the protection of CONCORD and this will be a boon for balanced corps with PvPers and to the mercenary marketplace who will accept the risk of a wardec for the increased rewards these structures will provide.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:38:37 - [370] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The agents will be available in certain structures, which I hope CCP do for hisec. I think your not so far apart from me, apart from the fact I feel that there is a place in Eve for people who just want to do their own thing and want them to stay in the game to keep the money rolling in for CCP. I am 100% against anyone being able to avoid the game's standard forms of interaction. I don't care how many millions of dollars CCP can pull from the LCDs by giving them a pvp toggle; it's bad for the game. If they want to make a new game in which the meek don't have to worry about getting their stuff blown up, by all means they should. But EVE should stay it is, because it is the only such game out there. That, or give me a different game based on the principles that EVE was founded on. Then they can do whatever they want to this one. Did I say that I wanted to nerf ganking, nope, the only thing I want to see is a few more meaningful penalties, like losing docking rights... The meek still need a place to have some peace, but you can still gank them. Well a lot of them are going to play Star Citizen, with their PvP bar set to 0, which is what I am going to do to, originally I was not, but decided to keep playing Eve to play against player killers and play Star Citizen for immersion only. Ella's Snack bar

Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12766	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:41:48 - [371] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Did I say that I wanted to nerf ganking, nope, the only thing I want to see is a few more meaningful penalties I love how those are both in the same sentence, even. It's not enough that a full third of the potential risk of highsec disappeared in the past year, he wants even more nerfs. Quote: The meek still need a place to have some peace Never. Quote: Well a lot of them are going to play Star Citizen, with their PvP bar set to 0 Good. They don't belong, and they never have. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:49:49 - [372] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Its people like you who are killing Eve. The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left. Excuse me for pointing out a truth but your last kill was last year, you are currently sitting in a station in Uedama, the only special snowflake who is not playing is you. I don't want to get dragged down into the standard mud-slingling match that this thread has descended into, but I am curious why you believe this. For the last 5 years, CCP has dropped nerf after nerf onto highsec making it increasingly safe. Certainly it has never been safer, yet you claim that only now, when highsec is at peak safety that people are getting tired of being prey and leaving the game? Should they not have done that years ago? Do you at least think it is plausible that the trend to towards safety over recent years has made the game a less interesting place which is why subscruptions/players online has flatlined or decreased? Because from the direction CCP has taken lately (and CCP Seagull all but saying that) it is clear that CCP has concluded this and have been busy making nullsec and wormholes more dangerous places. It is only logical that they will continue this and highsec (and lowsec) is about to become at least a little more dangerous. I am not a pessimistic as Destiny Corrupted. CCP will not pass up on the opportunity to drive conflict with these new structures and they (or at least the most lucrative of them) will be like POCOs unable to be taken down during a war. Pure industrial corps will have a harder time then ever competing while hiding behind the protection of CONCORD and this will be a boon for balanced corps with PvPers and to the mercenary marketplace who will accept the risk of a wardec for the increased rewards these structures will provide. I won't do that with you, because even though we have different views, you are open minded having read your posts quite often, you might notice I liked a number of your posts. The nerfing of hisec combat, its more like nerfing unexpected combat, can baiting has been replaced by suspect baiting, which means that instead of having fun blowing up a mining ship or hauler, you have fun blowing up a PvP fit ship. Thats a nerf I guess. When I hear people come on and rage about the loss of ways to trick defenceless people into getting blown up I laugh and feel a certain amount of contempt, I can't help it, the changes are easier to understand and now make it so people can risk having a fight, some people do suspect baiting very well, I watched a fun one develop in Kaap earlier. For certain players that is a nerf, the defenceless prey is harder to trick, on the flip side real reasons to avoid hisec fighting has been removed. For many years I did not bother with hisec wars because of the legions of RR alts that you could not touch, when that changed my attitude changed. Those same people see that as a nerf, but Destiny to her credit did not. What Lucas has described has been the impact on high sec indy corps and the structure he has laid out is what they have developed into, many of those left are now feeling the strain of suicide ganking of their freighters, which is why I was doing my bit to stop that. If structures give a benefit then people will stick their head up and perhaps try it, but they need to have allies, there are some groups that might gang together and join in war decs as defenders, but it will take time to develop that thinking, the issue is that there are so many bored people looking for easy kills that they descend on anyone before they have a chance to build anything. Ella's Snack bar
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:51:59 - [373] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Did I say that I wanted to nerf ganking, nope, the only thing I want to see is a few more meaningful penalties I love how those are both in the same sentence, even. It's not enough that a full third of the potential risk of highsec disappeared in the past year, he wants even more nerfs. Quote: The meek still need a place to have some peace Never. Quote: Well a lot of them are going to play Star Citizen, with their PvP bar set to 0 Good. They don't belong, and they never have. Balance is what is needed sarge, the balance is out of kilter in terms of consequences for ganking, thats my opinion, and its not yours. Well as for the word Never, get out and gank someone then instead of skulking in Uedama station. Ella's Snack bar
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2911	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:52:54 - [374] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Its people like you who are killing Eve. The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left. Excuse me for pointing out a truth but your last kill was last year, you are currently sitting in a station in Uedama, the only special snowflake who is not playing is you. I don't want to get dragged down into the standard mud-slingling match that this thread has descended into, but I am curious why you believe this. For the last 5 years, CCP has dropped nerf after nerf onto highsec making it increasingly safe. Certainly it has never been safer, yet you claim that only now, when highsec is at peak safety that people are getting tired of being prey and leaving the game? Should they not have done that years ago? Do you at least think it is plausible that the trend to towards safety over recent years has made the game a less interesting place which is why subscruptions/players online has flatlined or decreased? Because from the direction CCP has taken lately (and CCP Seagull all but saying that) it is clear that CCP has concluded this and have been busy making nullsec and wormholes more dangerous places. It is only logical that they will continue this and highsec (and lowsec) is about to become at least a little more dangerous. I am not a pessimistic as Destiny Corrupted. CCP will not pass up on the opportunity to drive conflict with these new structures and they (or at least the most lucrative of them) will be like POCOs unable to be taken down during a war. Pure industrial corps will have a harder time then ever competing while hiding behind the protection of CONCORD and this will be a boon for balanced corps with PvPers and to the mercenary marketplace who will accept the risk of a wardec for the increased rewards these structures will provide. It's that psychological effect where the easier something is to do, the less a person wants to bother doing it. It's like when you have a full day ahead of you, you just kind of man up and do it, but when your only chore is to walk half a block to buy some bread, you don't even want to bother putting on your pants. See, I can make a nice analogy here. Imagine a river that flows in one direction. Some people have to paddle really hard against the current, while the others take it nice and easy going downstream, only occasionally having to steer a little bit. And every year, that river speeds up. The people going upstream have to work harder and harder with the paddles, growing ever stronger and more skillful at navigating the current. The people going downstream, on the other hand, spend less and less time in the river at all, because they reach their destination quicker every year, resulting in ever-decreasing labor requirements. And then one day, the river is blocked off by a hydroelectric dam that's built to power a system of rails and carts alongside the river. Now the people who spent their entire lives paddling no longer have anything to do, and their skills and fitness are wasted. They have to leave for better opportunities somewhere else. Meanwhile, the ones who always went downstream can now sleep through the entire trip. Call me a pessimist. Someday, CCP will remove wars. They've already set the precedent for it. They'll keep implementing their "conflict drivers" until they finally reach a point where there's no conflict left. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 800	Posted - 2015.04.22 08:57:05 - [375] - Quote I think that it would be a major mistake to remove wars, and I think you are being pessimistic. I am looking forward to seeing just how these structures develop in hisec and hope that CCP make them so they have real benefits. The balance in terms of war dec's seem about right, both sides moan equally about them, always a good sign... Ella's Snack bar
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12767	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:02:54 - [376] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Balance is what is needed sarge, the balance is out of kilter in terms of consequences for ganking, thats my opinion, and its not yours. You don't want balance. You might claim you do, but it's already so grossly in your favor already that it's plain to see the truth of the matter. When balance does come, and I suspect that it will, you and your kind will be crying loud enough to throw the moon off it's orbit. When balance does come, it will be a big net loss of safety in highsec. Because if they don't start promoting accessible and meaningful conflict, they may as well just shut the servers off. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2911	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:07:13 - [377] - Quote They're going to do something insane like implement a system wherein it's only possible to declare war on entities that launch/own public-use property, while at the same time marginalizing the benefits of said property to inconsequential levels, or giving players alternative, maybe slightly less-efficient (think the difference between NPC tax and owning a player corporation today) solutions without opening them up to war. They're already doing something very similar with "social corps." Anyone who doesn't see this is either too naive, or doesn't want to face the truth staring them in the eyes. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 801	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:09:29 - [378] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Balance is what is needed sarge, the balance is out of kilter in terms of consequences for ganking, thats my opinion, and its not yours. You don't want balance. You might claim you do, but it's already so grossly in your favor already that it's plain to see the truth of the matter. When balance does come, and I suspect that it will, you and your kind will be crying loud enough to throw the moon off it's orbit. When balance does come, it will be a big net loss of safety in highsec. Because if they don't start promoting accessible and meaningful conflict, they may as well just shut the servers off. You really believe its in the favour of who? Sorry to burst your bubble but I have been out there trying to save freighters, I have seen how much the mechanics make it easy to loot scoop with no consequences, I have seen how the mechanics get skilfully manipulated, I respect the people who do ganking because they are so damn efficient at it, and yet the mechanics really get n the way of the anti-gankers too. The ganking of freighters in hisec is a high level strategic aim of the Goons, so the people doing it have no skin in the game, its all funded by mother Goon. There are some fun fights occurring around all of this, but you of course are sitting in a station with no ganks, get out and do one so I can shoot you... Ella's Snack bar
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 803	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:17:53 - [379] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: They're going to do something insane like implement a system wherein it's only possible to declare war on entities that launch/own public-use property, while at the same time marginalizing the benefits of said property to inconsequential levels, or giving players alternative, maybe slightly less-efficient (think the difference between NPC tax and owning a player corporation today) solutions without opening them up to war. They're already doing something very similar with "social corps." Anyone who doesn't see this is either too naive, or doesn't want to face the truth staring them in the eyes. That is a good post, yeah you might be right in terms of limiting the war dec to people who have such skin in the game, it might not be such a bad thing, but the nerf in this is that its more difficult to attack people who are not ready and willing to fight, all you have left is ganking, which of course should at that point have the removal of concord and a more realistic Empire navy reaction and consequences like loss of docking, I hate Concord to be blunt. But one of the reasons why the war dec system is a destructive mess is that there are no benefits to either side, well only the aggressors in terms of green killboards of cheap ships shuttles and pods. And I get the chance to go after a GTFO ship, wow... I can hardly stir myself to go kill a Marmite for example, chasing GTFO ships I had my fill off in 0.0, in the end I used to just Falcon them, which was amusing to see them whine in local about a good fight until Falcon, and I would reply a bit rich from someone in a GTFO ship, lol, you should have seen the rage. Ella's Snack bar
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5363	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:20:17 - [380] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: They are a way for certain war groups to switch off concord That's what it's for. See, even CCP can't really deny that highsec is bad for the game, and that Concord's present state was a mistake. But since they also, more than almost anything else, cave in to whining, they can't just savagely nerf Concord like they should. So we have wars, where at the cost of contributing to the isk sink, you can make Concord go away against certain people. Wars exist to mitigate the mechanics that never should have existed in the first place. Concord works as intended, as a consequence for violence in high security space. You need to get used to the fact that concord will always exist in highsec. You complain because highsec isn't lowsec, yet refuse to live in lowsec. When they were limited wars were used for people wanting to attack certain groups of people. Now that you can have hundreds of wars without issues they are purely used for farming the bottom rung players. The problem isn't concord, it's overly simplistic wardec mechanics. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!

Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5364	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:26:33 - [381] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: CCP's retention numbers disagree with you, just so you know. There's not nearly enough stuff getting blown up in highsec these days, and that needs to change. You can fluff for Lucas all you want, but both you and him stand squarely in the way of the game making real progress with subscription numbers and retention, and you do so in the name of the special snowflakes who aren't really playing the game in the first place anyway. I really think you actually want to see EVE die. It's not our fault if you misunderstand CCPs statistics on player retention, but shooting players != retention. There are many other forms of interaction that aid in player retention. I've seen you state EVE statistics on player retention as a point multiple times and every time you've missed the mark by miles. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12771	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:31:22 - [382] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The ganking of freighters in hisec is a high level strategic aim of the Goons, so the people doing it have no skin in the game, its all funded by mother Goon. I like how, in one breath, you claim that ganking is too easy and the game mechanics favor PvP players, while admitting in the other that killing freighters at any decent scale is only possible these days with the backing of one of the biggest groups in the entire ******* game. And of course, you don't think there is anything inconsistent about that, either. That's the best part, how freaking blind you are. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5364	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:33:10 - [383] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: POCOs were a good step in the proper direction. Unfortunately, they were implemented for a feature that's hard to make a lot of money from, and the penalties are easy to circumvent. Game would have been much more fun if belts and agents were locked behind acceleration gates that had to be fought over, and access managed by the controlling parties, usually sold for a cost. But CCP will never go through with something like this, because the bears will cry bloody murder that they can't make 100% of the possible profits at all times. I'd support that as part of an overhaul to highsec wardecs in general, or simply a method of taking systemwide cuts from the profits of miners. I think they should be able to do the same for stations taking a cut of brokers fees and with bounty taxes, LP payouts, etc too. Like POCOs give access to income from PI others are doing, it should allow players to access other income streams and fight over control. The battles between the merc groups and RvB over POCO control were amazing. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 804	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:35:30 - [384] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The ganking of freighters in hisec is a high level strategic aim of the Goons, so the people doing it have no skin in the game, its all funded by mother Goon. I like how, in one breath, you claim that ganking is too easy and the game mechanics favor PvP players, while admitting in the other that killing freighters at any decent scale is only possible these days with the backing of one of the biggest groups in the entire ******* game. And of course, you don't think there is anything inconsistent about that, either. That's the best part, how freaking blind you are. Well that is one area of ganking, we have two catalysts ganking mining ships, we have Vexors ganking Industrials and we have a couple of Tornados ganking deep space transports, they are not Goons, and they make ISK. Then at the freighter level the sheer numbers killed by the Goon group is enabled by the amount of resources that Goons put in, certain people make a lot of ISK doing it, in fact during the initial period of hyperdunking Siggy made an absolute killing, as hyperdunking is easy to stop, I stopped quite a few they largely gave up on that due to the vigelence of the AG group. You have no idea sarge... Ella's Snack bar
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5364	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:41:48 - [385] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: This despite the verified fact that the people who get ganked or killed in a war are by far the most likely to resub and play for a longer time. Meanwhile, the people who just mine or shoot red crosses all day quit of boredom at a far higher rate. Looks like it's the exact opposite of what you're claiming, hmm? Lol, limited statistics being misinterpreted is "verified fact" now? There's countless issues with those stats which have been discussed at length. Sometimes I think CCP throw these tabloid statistics out there to stir things up. It's amusing to me how people like yourself then run off with them as if they explain everything. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12771	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:42:03 - [386] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: and they largely gave up on that due to the vigelence of the AG group. You mean, the fact that Tippia spelled out in black and white how easy it was to beat, to emphasize that anyone who died to it was a veritable ******? Meanwhile, if I recall, you AG guys were bawling about how it should be banned. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 352	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:45:50 - [387] - Quote Whoever decided to derail this thread. Well done. Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 805	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:47:59 - [388] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Dracvlad wrote: and they largely gave up on that due to the vigelence of the AG group. You mean, the fact that Tippia spelled out in black and white how easy it was to beat, to emphasize that anyone who died to it was a veritable ******? Meanwhile, if I recall, you AG guys were bawling about how it should be banned. I worked out how to beat it myself and was fun to do so., as for the freighters who get caught, we can all facepalm at them, but the objective for me is to keep industry and key markets in hisec, so there you go. I happen to use a twin faction web fitted loki, but then again taht may be something to do with me being able to work such things out... Not me, in fact I was welcoming the content, I got some great kills because of it, my only issue was using it to take out of offline POS mods without a war dec, but there is of course some benefits to that, go and read my posts in that thread sarge. Ella's Snack bar
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 805	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:49:05 - [389] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Whoever decided to derail this thread. Well done. You say Marmite cannot destroy a large POS, thats lame... Ella's Snack bar
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5364	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:55:19 - [390] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: When balance does come, and I suspect that it will, you and your kind will be crying loud enough to throw the moon off it's orbit. When balance does come, it will be a big net loss of safety in highsec. Because if they don't start promoting accessible and meaningful conflict, they may as well just shut the servers off. This just simply isn't true. When balance comes, high sec will still be high sec. The overarching theme of it will be safety, since that's what highsec is. The thing is, you guys might kick and scream about all the nerfs, but the reality is that it's still as easy as it ever was to aggress someone in highsec. How that's done might have changed and the balance between type of aggression may have but it's just as easy and obviously popular. I think you'll be very disappointed when they do get around to balancing highsec if you've got yourself psyched up for drastic changes like the complete removal of concord. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!

Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5367	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:57:05 - [391] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Whoever decided to derail this thread. Well done. I think that was the ISDs when they moved it. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 356	Posted - 2015.04.22 09:58:44 - [392] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Whoever decided to derail this thread. Well done. You say Marmite cannot destroy a large POS, thats lame... Touch+¬. That's exactly what I posted. As you can quite clearly read in this quote. Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 805	Posted - 2015.04.22 10:01:09 - [393] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Whoever decided to derail this thread. Well done. You say Marmite cannot destroy a large POS, thats lame... Touch+¬. That's exactly what I posted. As you can quite clearly read in this quote. Corrected on my original post, before I saw your reply actually... Ella's Snack bar
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 356	Posted - 2015.04.22 10:03:09 - [394] - Quote Sew personally I feel high sec merc corps in their current form need to die. That said they would be replaced by suicide mercs and war Dec assistance mercs. You can read my in depth thoughts on how in a few hours time when I can type it on a computer keyboard Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 805	Posted - 2015.04.22 10:07:26 - [395] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Sew personally I feel high sec merc corps in their current form need to die. That said they would be replaced by suicide mercs and war Dec assistance mercs. You can read my in depth thoughts on how in a few hours time when I can type it on a computer keyboard The issue is more to do with the scatter gun approach and war deccing people who have no reason to fight, if that changes and I hope that CCP make these structures have benefits in hisec then you guys will become meaner leaner and objective focussed, if there is enough people left in Eve willing to try doing the top line structures in hisec of course and that is debatable at this point. Ella's Snack bar
Tora Bushido EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 2302	Posted - 2015.04.22 10:11:38 - [396] - Quote Adapt or die, boohoohoo and HTFU was the first thing that came to mind. TLDR. YOU EITHER LOVE US OR WE HATE YOU - DELETE THE WEAK , ADAPT OR DIE !
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 805	Posted - 2015.04.22 10:20:05 - [397] - Quote Tora Bushido wrote: Adapt or die, boohoohoo and HTFU were the first things that came to mind. TLDR. Well off to the echo chamber then! Ella's Snack bar
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1379	Posted - 2015.04.22 10:21:40 - [398] - Quote Indeed, you all have good points. I like the vampire guy's opinion best, his opinion is more right than other people's opinion. I would propose we nerf Oracles and Nagas because they hate industrial players. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Tora Bushido EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 2304	Posted - 2015.04.22 10:30:51 - [399] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Well off to the echo chamber then! If I knew what it meant..... People confuse personal failure to much with failing game mechanics. YOU EITHER LOVE US OR WE HATE YOU - DELETE THE WEAK , ADAPT OR DIE !
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 805	Posted - 2015.04.22 10:33:35 - [400] - Quote Tora Bushido wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well off to the echo chamber then! If I knew what it meant..... People confuse personal failure to much with failing game mechanics. We all fail, but the fun is to try, its those that don't try who truly fail... Ella's Snack bar

Tora Bushido EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 2309	Posted - 2015.04.22 11:12:12 - [401] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: We all fail, but the fun is to try, its those that don't try who truly fail... If thats what the OP would have said, we wouldnt have had a useless discussion for 891237928 pages. Back to my point, don't blame personal failure to game mechanisms. YOU EITHER LOVE US OR WE HATE YOU - DELETE THE WEAK , ADAPT OR DIE !
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 806	Posted - 2015.04.22 11:21:16 - [402] - Quote Tora Bushido wrote: Dracvlad wrote: We all fail, but the fun is to try, its those that don't try who truly fail... If thats what the OP would have said, we wouldnt have had a useless discussion for 891237928 pages. Back to my point, don't blame personal failure to game mechanisms. Well the anti-gankers have a load of game mechanisms that get in the way of saving freighters, but we just do what we can, in any case this is not a useless discussion, there is a lot of good stuff in here. Ella's Snack bar
Tora Bushido EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 2309	Posted - 2015.04.22 11:30:30 - [403] - Quote What do gankers have to do with the war dec mechanism ? And did you buy that account or have you been in game for 6 years ? YOU EITHER LOVE US OR WE HATE YOU - DELETE THE WEAK , ADAPT OR DIE !
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 366	Posted - 2015.04.22 11:39:07 - [404] - Quote There are a solid 5-6 posts in here on wardecs between 19 pages of drivvel... hence the new thread Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 806	Posted - 2015.04.22 11:41:22 - [405] - Quote Tora Bushido wrote: What do gankers have to do with the war dec mechanism ? And did you buy that account or have you been in game for 6 years ? A lot actually, you waffled on about game mechanisms and I suggested some mechanisms that can be worked around if you have the guts for it, which is talking about an attitude of mind, which is what you were trying to allude to. And in any case ganking is just another part of war in hisec, surely a war dec merc corp understands that... Well your intel is rubbish if you ask that question about a war target, in the Eve forums you can check for sold characters, I do it a lot when I check out people, perhaps you could do the same. Ella's Snack bar
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 806	Posted - 2015.04.22 11:42:26 - [406] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: There are a solid 5-6 posts in here on wardecs between 19 pages of drivvel... hence the new thread And you start off whining about large POS's being too tough, that was drivel... Ella's Snack bar
Tora Bushido EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 2312	Posted - 2015.04.22 11:45:47 - [407] - Quote The number of dumb fucks in Eve who keep posting bull **** here becomes more and more every day. YOU EITHER LOVE US OR WE HATE YOU - DELETE THE WEAK , ADAPT OR DIE !
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 806	Posted - 2015.04.22 11:46:31 - [408] - Quote Tora Bushido wrote: The number of dumb fucks in Eve who keep posting bull **** here becomes more and more every day. Yeah, I have noticed that too. Ella's Snack bar
Tora Bushido EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 2317	Posted - 2015.04.22 12:05:29 - [409] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Tora Bushido wrote: The number of dumb fucks in Eve who keep posting bull **** here becomes more and more every day. Yeah, I have noticed that too, especially those that can't read more than a couple of sentences. So why dont you at least try to read them. Even if you just pretend you get it. YOU EITHER LOVE US OR WE HATE YOU - DELETE THE WEAK , ADAPT OR DIE !
Mike Adoulin Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters 1251	Posted - 2015.04.22 12:07:14 - [410] - Quote Dec 'em Tora. DEC THEM ALL. Squeak. Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg. Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5368	Posted - 2015.04.22 12:14:53 - [411] - Quote Tora Bushido wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Yeah, I have noticed that too, especially those that can't read more than a couple of sentences. I know you are so what am I Classic Tora. And he wonders why he didn't make it to the CSM. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1381	Posted - 2015.04.22 12:35:31 - [412] - Quote CCP Should stop forcing PVE on us! Classic Lucas, shooting the messenger because... Because! D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Tora Bushido EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 2319	Posted - 2015.04.22 13:46:59 - [413] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Tora Bushido wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Yeah, I have noticed that too, especially those that can't read more than a couple of sentences. I know you are so what am I Classic Tora. And he wonders why he didn't make it to the CSM. Classic egocentric Lucas, who thinks he knows it all and the rest of the world must all be wrong. Get a life mate. Tora, CSM, #19 of 75 , awesome ! YOU EITHER LOVE US OR WE HATE YOU - DELETE THE WEAK , ADAPT OR DIE !
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5369	Posted - 2015.04.22 13:57:01 - [414] - Quote Good job guys, nice and original. And I don't claim to know it all, I'm simply honest unlike you. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Tora Bushido EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 2320	Posted - 2015.04.22 14:01:06 - [415] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Good job guys, nice and original. And I don't claim to know it all, I'm simply honest unlike you. Thats what your brain keeps telling you. You re full of yourself. YOU EITHER LOVE US OR WE HATE YOU - DELETE THE WEAK , ADAPT OR DIE !
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5369	Posted - 2015.04.22 14:06:00 - [416] - Quote Tora Bushido wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: Good job guys, nice and original. And I don't claim to know it all, I'm simply honest unlike you. Thats what your brain keeps telling you. You re full of yourself. Seriously guy, just stop. You're no good at smacktalk and frankly the fact that you seem to have sug a stick up your ass about anything I say creeps me out a little, like I'm gonna find you hiding in the bushes outside one day. If you don't like what I post feel free to ignore me. You jumped into this thread derailing it with your usual bullshit and insults, so why don't you just jump back out and **** off. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1383	Posted - 2015.04.22 14:08:20 - [417] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: I'll derail this thread before anyone has an idea that makes me protect my supply chain I know you are so what am I D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5369	Posted - 2015.04.22 14:19:01 - [418] - Quote Danalee wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: I'll derail this thread before anyone has an idea that makes me protect my supply chain I know you are so what am I That doesn't make any sense. Like neither the made up quote or the response. Anyway, I'll respond to on topic posts, but I'm just going to start reporting the off topic ones at this point since this has clearly gone far enough. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 806	Posted - 2015.04.22 14:22:50 - [419] - Quote Tora Bushido wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: Good job guys, nice and original. And I don't claim to know it all, I'm simply honest unlike you. Thats what your brain keeps telling you. You re full of yourself. Lucas is a thoughtful deep player who is very able to articulate his ideas in a calm and very rational way, he has good ideas and will engage people to try to enable them to gain a certain level of understanding, his efforts are wasted on a lot of Eve players yourself included. His comments about the structure of indy groups in hisec is spot on and one of the reasons you and the other mercs moan incessantly about corp recreation etc. If you had not over done your scatter gun war dec on anything that moves or throwing one man war dec corps at corps that did not fight but sat it out you would not be whining like you are now, for example I got war decc'd by Deadly Fingertips because the CEO saw me webbing an Orca, seriously, that is the level of strategic thinking of most hisec mercs. So desperate to find stupid people to kill that they war dec people on the hope that they continue to operate as normal so they can get that easy kill and there are stupid people who do just that. In truth people are so bored of this type of rubbish I cannot see why people even bother, for example I just cannot force myself to go chasing off after your pipe camping GTFO ships, my corpmates are so bored at that they find GTA 5 much more fun. And yet is the carebears fault, whine whine whine repeat ad nauseam. Ella's Snack bar
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1383	Posted - 2015.04.22 14:39:21 - [420] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Danalee wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: I'll derail this thread before anyone has an idea that makes me protect my supply chain I know you are so what am I That doesn't make any sense. Like neither the made up quote or the response. Anyway, I'll respond to on topic posts, but I'm just going to start reporting the off topic ones at this point since this has clearly gone far enough. It doesn't? You fear the loss of your zero-risk NPC corp characters. You fear CCP seeing the problem with risk-free hisec catering to the bears too much will result in you having to actually work for your isk and take risks. This fear forces you to derail each and every thread about the subject with silly conjecture of big PVE corps being imposiburu and wardecs being some form of cancer that needs to be cut out. Sums it up for you? D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5370	Posted - 2015.04.22 15:18:12 - [421] - Quote Danalee wrote: It doesn't? You fear the loss of your zero-risk NPC corp characters. You fear CCP seeing the problem with risk-free hisec, which is catering to the bears too much and that will result in you having to actually work for your isk and take risks. This fear forces you to derail each and every thread about the subject with silly conjecture like the tale of big PVE corps being imposiburu and wardecs being some form of cancer that needs to be cut out. Sums it up for you? It sums up what you mistakenly believe to be correct. I really don;t care if they remove NPC corps from my personal point of view. I'd go from having NPC corp alts to alts each in their own corporation (or a social one, since you know those are coming if they drop NPC corps) and I'll still be shipping everything through red frog. That said, I doube CCP will ever remove NPC corps as they understand that a huge portion of their playerbase uses them to avoid players like yourself who feel you should be able to have all the comfort of a safe highsec but at will remove that safety from anyone you want at a miniscule cost. The thing is just yesterday you could see my point. Now that your leader is here, I'm suddenly just fearful of losing NPC corps. I think we all know that wardecs suck and need a serious revamp, even if Tora refuses to admit it because he's worried he'll actually have to put effort in if they change it. Danalee wrote: EDIT: you are also very jealous of Tora for his succes in game and out. What success? In game he runs a joke of a merc corp, which pretty much hangs around on gates and station in the Jita -> Amarr pipe talking bad smack. out of game is all super secret, undoubtedly because he's ashamed of working at a supermarket checkout. What's there to be jealous of? Danalee wrote: Edit 2: Why don't you post something constructive in the constructive thread if you aren't here for the trolling and nothing but the trolling? You can't? Yeah... I knew that You mean the duplicate thread which is basically the same as this one, especially since it still has yourself and Tora posting rubbish in it? I may as well just stick about here, already got the tab open. And lol, you of all people accusing others of trolling. Good one, top kek. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 4430	Posted - 2015.04.22 15:50:03 - [422] - Quote I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it. The Rules: 5. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 371	Posted - 2015.04.22 15:52:53 - [423] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: That said, I doube CCP will ever remove NPC corps as they understand that a huge portion of their playerbase uses them to avoid players like yourself who feel you should be able to have all the comfort of a safe highsec but at will remove that safety from anyone you want at a miniscule cost. Why don't you read my proposed changes on the thread that isn't busy discussing everything under the sun wrong with the game while at the same time trolling and dickfencing taking up pretty much every post on each page. What are we on page 16? and maybe 4 solid posts about the subject matter. The other thread has that already without somebody having to read the drivel. Then if you have any ideas on how to improve it please post them there. Avoid trolling arguing and generally being a douche over there and maybe we can make it a thread worth reading and see some real changes happen. Personally i think the current system is broken as and the multiple offensive wardecs needs to end. You can read my ideas on how there and even contribute your own ideas or offer change suggestions to those 1's. With multiple offensive wardecs gone we would do away with the need for NPC corps too and I feel it would make high-sec a much more sociable and interactive place. What do you think on the subject Lucas? Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5370	Posted - 2015.04.22 16:35:51 - [424] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: That said, I doube CCP will ever remove NPC corps as they understand that a huge portion of their playerbase uses them to avoid players like yourself who feel you should be able to have all the comfort of a safe highsec but at will remove that safety from anyone you want at a miniscule cost. Why don't you read my proposed changes on the thread that isn't busy discussing everything under the sun wrong with the game while at the same time trolling and dickfencing taking up pretty much every post on each page. What are we on page 16? and maybe 4 solid posts about the subject matter. The other thread has that already without somebody having to read the drivel. Then if you have any ideas on how to improve it please post them there. Avoid trolling arguing and generally being a douche over there and maybe we can make it a thread worth reading and see some real changes happen. Personally i think the current system is broken as and the multiple offensive wardecs needs to end. You can read my ideas on how there and even contribute your own ideas or offer change suggestions to those 1's. With multiple offensive wardecs gone we would do away with the need for NPC corps too and I feel it would make high-sec a much more sociable and interactive place. What do you think on the subject Lucas? I think that a thread made by a Marmite member, particularly one in the corp you are in is unlikely to remain troll free. I think that multiple offensive wardecs are OK up to a point, but too much once you start hitting double digits for the low price paid. I think removing NPC corps would result in a simply ludicrous number of one man corps and further fragment an already fragmented area. I think that wardecs in their current format encourage players to attack, and reward players for attacking the weakest targets, whereas a well designed mechanic should encourage you to pick a level of challenge that suits your ability and reward you appropriately for that challenge - the best rewards should go to those willing to face the most risk and display the most skill. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 373	Posted - 2015.04.22 16:45:48 - [425] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: That said, I doube CCP will ever remove NPC corps as they understand that a huge portion of their playerbase uses them to avoid players like yourself who feel you should be able to have all the comfort of a safe highsec but at will remove that safety from anyone you want at a miniscule cost. Why don't you read my proposed changes on the thread that isn't busy discussing everything under the sun wrong with the game while at the same time trolling and dickfencing taking up pretty much every post on each page. What are we on page 16? and maybe 4 solid posts about the subject matter. The other thread has that already without somebody having to read the drivel. Then if you have any ideas on how to improve it please post them there. Avoid trolling arguing and generally being a douche over there and maybe we can make it a thread worth reading and see some real changes happen. Personally i think the current system is broken as and the multiple offensive wardecs needs to end. You can read my ideas on how there and even contribute your own ideas or offer change suggestions to those 1's. With multiple offensive wardecs gone we would do away with the need for NPC corps too and I feel it would make high-sec a much more sociable and interactive place. What do you think on the subject Lucas? I think that a thread made by a Marmite member, particularly one in the corp you are in is unlikely to remain troll free. I think that multiple offensive wardecs are OK up to a point, but too much once you start hitting double digits for the low price paid. I think removing NPC corps would result in a simply ludicrous number of one man corps and further fragment an already fragmented area. I think that wardecs in their current format encourage players to attack, and reward players for attacking the weakest targets, whereas a well designed mechanic should encourage you to pick a level of challenge that suits your ability and reward you appropriately for that challenge - the best rewards should go to those willing to face the most risk and display the most skill. I think if you read it you will find well thought out ideas and a rather accepting atmosphere. I have also tried to offer exactly that kind of balance in my posts. I am a firm believer in giving corps a chance. Ask eve college. I arranged to end their DEC and told them it would resume in 6 weeks time to give them a chance because they have potential. I want to see what they are in 5.5 weeks. I doubt I'll be able to hold head to head Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 247	Posted - 2015.04.22 17:53:58 - [426] - Quote If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6596	Posted - 2015.04.22 18:03:08 - [427] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets. Highsec wardec as "pay for lowsec". Never saw it that way before. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 382	Posted - 2015.04.22 18:04:07 - [428] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets. I proposed a limit on wardecs. Both to offensive and assistance. Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 895	Posted - 2015.04.22 18:16:52 - [429] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets. That was the initial design of the game. Even if wardecs were not avoidable, highsec would be very much safer than lowsec because you have a short and defined list of who can attack you at any given moment, as opposed to everyone in lowsec. It is called highsec, not safesec. Knowing, and having shown to you in local, the small number of people that can shoot you legally is definitely higher security than what is found in lowsec and elsewhere.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 832	Posted - 2015.04.22 18:27:28 - [430] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets. I proposed a limit on wardecs. Both to offensive and assistance. But now we rub up to an issue with the new structures, if a corp or alliance builds a station structure and the Goons decide to remove it, if you limit the number of people who can assist how the hell can anyone build anything in hisec? I also think that there has to be a limit to the time that entities can be war decc'd as the OP quite rightly pointed out its too much to leave it totally open ended. I have now decided to act on this, it was OK when it was just Marmite but with another merc alliance dog-piling on us I just gave the order for people involved in the anti-ganking activities to leave their corps in Second-Dawn, I want them out and about in the pipe doing their stuff not avoiding your people. You see your war has no interest to us at all, no reason to fight you and the result is what I just did, anti-ganking activities come first. Ella's Snack bar

Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 247	Posted - 2015.04.22 18:40:38 - [431] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets. I proposed a limit on wardecs. Both to offensive and assistance. I saw that comment. My statement was more directed to the people who don't see a problem with the current system aside from the fact that wars can be avoided.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 832	Posted - 2015.04.22 18:42:55 - [432] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets. I proposed a limit on wardecs. Both to offensive and assistance. I saw that comment. My statement was more directed to the people who don't see a problem with the current system aside from the fact that wars can be avoided. The avoidance of wars has to be there due to the total open ended nature of such war decs, plus the dog-piling of others into the fray. Ella's Snack bar
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5378	Posted - 2015.04.22 18:46:43 - [433] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets. That was the initial design of the game. Even if wardecs were not avoidable, highsec would be very much safer than lowsec because you have a short and defined list of who can attack you at any given moment, as opposed to everyone in lowsec. It is called highsec, not safesec. Knowing, and having shown to you in local, the small number of people that can shoot you legally is definitely higher security than what is found in lowsec and elsewhere. Yeah, then they changed the dec fee mechanics and that small number became "whoever fancies it". Amusingly though, lowsec is pretty dead, so obviously the mechanics there don't work too well. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5378	Posted - 2015.04.22 18:48:35 - [434] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets. I proposed a limit on wardecs. Both to offensive and assistance. I saw that comment. My statement was more directed to the people who don't see a problem with the current system aside from the fact that wars can be avoided. The avoidance of wars has to be there due to the total open ended nature of such war decs, plus the dog-piling of others into the fray. To be quite honest, the avoidance of wars has to be there to stop people being prevented from playing. If you can declare war on someone and they can't get out, can't fight and have nothing to offer you that you'll accept to drop it, they are stuck paying for a game they are unable to play. I can't see CCP allowing that. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2173	Posted - 2015.04.22 19:00:40 - [435] - Quote I don't think most people really advocate for making avoiding wars in any way impossible Or even particularly difficult, rather they want there to be some consequence for things like dropping out of and closing corps. As it stands there isn't much in the way of consequences for using war evading tactics and the tactics are brutally effective. It's a bitter pill to swallow when the justification given for the pricing and cost scaling of wars was "paying for targets". I'd you really are paying for targets should you not reasonably expect to get the targets you paid for?
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 249	Posted - 2015.04.22 19:07:07 - [436] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets. That was the initial design of the game. Even if wardecs were not avoidable, highsec would be very much safer than lowsec because you have a short and defined list of who can attack you at any given moment, as opposed to everyone in lowsec. It is called highsec, not safesec. Knowing, and having shown to you in local, the small number of people that can shoot you legally is definitely higher security than what is found in lowsec and elsewhere. Initial design does not necessarily mean best design. The game has undergone numerous changes both good and bad depending on who you ask. There is a short, defined list of who can attack you in lowsec and nullsec also. It's called local. It's called high security space. Not low or null. It is intended to be safer. If a highsec pvp group can wardec me on a whim because I was seen undocking in something bigger than a T1 cruiser, how is that any different in practice than lowsec? Ubiquitous wardecs would break highsec in a matter of weeks, and considering how much of the player base is in highsec, it's no wonder CCP has gone in the opposite direction.
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 249	Posted - 2015.04.22 19:13:40 - [437] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: I don't think most people really advocate for making avoiding wars in any way impossible Or even particularly difficult, rather they want there to be some consequence for things like dropping out of and closing corps. As it stands there isn't much in the way of consequences for using war evading tactics and the tactics are brutally effective. It's a bitter pill to swallow when the justification given for the pricing and cost scaling of wars was "paying for targets". I'd you really are paying for targets should you not reasonably expect to get the targets you paid for? If 50M a week was in any way significant to someone who's been playing for years or people who have demonstrated a tendency to sink real world money into PLEX, alts, and bought characters, I'd agree with you. At this point I am seriously considering joining a merc corp because it clearly affords the easiest, least risky access to high value targets in the game. 50M a week per target is peanuts.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 832	Posted - 2015.04.22 19:18:07 - [438] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: I don't think most people really advocate for making avoiding wars in any way impossible Or even particularly difficult, rather they want there to be some consequence for things like dropping out of and closing corps. As it stands there isn't much in the way of consequences for using war evading tactics and the tactics are brutally effective. It's a bitter pill to swallow when the justification given for the pricing and cost scaling of wars was "paying for targets". I'd you really are paying for targets should you not reasonably expect to get the targets you paid for? The issue is that it really depends on your own conduct, this type of war with Marmite is utterly boring, my experienced members just have no interest in chasing around Marmites GTFO type of play, so they are all playing GTA 5. When I was around there was one roam, while I was away they did three roams and we did not get anything to shoot and were happy to lose the ships we were in. So now my corpmates are not logging in, that is at the core of the issue, I have PvP players who find Marmite so boring that they don't bother logging in and I feel bad because I got them to come back to the game, wish I had waited until the 0.0 changes had been applied, would have been better. Ella's Snack bar
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1385	Posted - 2015.04.22 19:18:24 - [439] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: At this point I am seriously considering joining a merc corp because it clearly affords the easiest, least risky access to high value targets in the game. 50M a week per target is peanuts. Do it. I dare you. At least you'd be talking about something you know a bit about. as opposed to the nullbears defending their risk free supply line. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 249	Posted - 2015.04.22 19:24:12 - [440] - Quote Danalee wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: At this point I am seriously considering joining a merc corp because it clearly affords the easiest, least risky access to high value targets in the game. 50M a week per target is peanuts. Do it. I dare you. At least you'd be talking about something you know a bit about. as opposed to the nullbears defending their risk free supply line. D. Only problem is I really like being able to get 2 of the best ships in the game really cheaply through FW, and I can't travel through Amarr or Caldari space, once again due to FW.

Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1385	Posted - 2015.04.22 19:28:39 - [441] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Danalee wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: At this point I am seriously considering joining a merc corp because it clearly affords the easiest, least risky access to high value targets in the game. 50M a week per target is peanuts. Do it. I dare you. At least you'd be talking about something you know a bit about. as opposed to the nullbears defending their risk free supply line. D. Only problem is I really like being able to get 2 of the best ships in the game really cheaply through FW, and I can't travel through Amarr or Caldari space, once again due to FW. Wah? Can't fly through certain systems? How is that an issue? You'd be raking in isks from dropping fleets on miners and newbies everywhere at the same time? right? Anyhow, there are standing repair plans for that if you really think it's an issue. Too much effort already? D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5380	Posted - 2015.04.22 19:45:38 - [442] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: I don't think most people really advocate for making avoiding wars in any way impossible Or even particularly difficult, rather they want there to be some consequence for things like dropping out of and closing corps. As it stands there isn't much in the way of consequences for using war evading tactics and the tactics are brutally effective. It's a bitter pill to swallow when the justification given for the pricing and cost scaling of wars was "paying for targets". I'd you really are paying for targets should you not reasonably expect to get the targets you paid for? The problem being that the same people want NPC corps gone. So where do players go who want to drop out of a war, and what consequences can they pay if they have nothing? And you do get the targets you pay for. If you pick a target small enough to fold their corp on a whim, you paid for the wrong target and they bested you. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 249	Posted - 2015.04.22 19:55:09 - [443] - Quote Danalee wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Danalee wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: At this point I am seriously considering joining a merc corp because it clearly affords the easiest, least risky access to high value targets in the game. 50M a week per target is peanuts. Do it. I dare you. At least you'd be talking about something you know a bit about. as opposed to the nullbears defending their risk free supply line. D. Only problem is I really like being able to get 2 of the best ships in the game really cheaply through FW, and I can't travel through Amarr or Caldari space, once again due to FW. Wah? Can't fly through certain systems? How is that an issue? You'd be raking in isks from dropping fleets on miners and newbies everywhere at the same time? right? Anyhow, there are standing repair plans for that if you really think it's an issue. Too much effort already? D. You've convinced me. Is Marmite recruiting? Where do I sign up? Is there a minimum neutral alt requirement?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 835	Posted - 2015.04.22 20:00:23 - [444] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: You've convinced me. Is Marmite recruiting? Where do I sign up? Is there a minimum neutral alt requirement? When you have joined Marmite come and shoot my POS please Ella's Snack bar
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 896	Posted - 2015.04.22 20:02:55 - [445] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Initial design does not necessarily mean best design. The game has undergone numerous changes both good and bad depending on who you ask. There is a short, defined list of who can attack you in lowsec and nullsec also. It's called local. It's called high security space. Not low or null. It is intended to be safer. If a highsec pvp group can wardec me on a whim because I was seen undocking in something bigger than a T1 cruiser, how is that any different in practice than lowsec? Ubiquitous wardecs would break highsec in a matter of weeks, and considering how much of the player base is in highsec, it's no wonder CCP has gone in the opposite direction. My point was that highsec is suppose to have risk, and more importantly is a place intended to have conflict. Wardecs are intended to allow that conflict to take place albeit in a slightly limited manner where you are not fighting everyone and anyone at once. That is a far cry from lowsec and a much safer environment, or "higher" security. You were never intended by CCP, or are now required to be locked into a war. The NPC corp is suppose to be a place for you flee to if you have had enough of a war. The problem is when players gain all the benefits of being in a player corp (which are suppose to be subject to wardecs) with none of the downsides of the NPC corp by briefly fleeing to them after a wardec is declared to shed the dec. I am not sure where you think we do not have ubiquitous wardecs right now. Any corp can be wardecced at anytime and in any number by another willing to pay the cost. All that exists now is this loophole that allows small corporations without in-space assets to dodge them trivially. Large corps and ones reliant on POSes are completely subject to the whims of highsec PvP groups as the game was originally designed - just look at the OP of this threadnaught. It will be very interesting to see how new in-space structures change this balance. This loophole could very well close itself if carebears decide that these new in-space structures are necessary for their gameplay.
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 249	Posted - 2015.04.22 20:45:29 - [446] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Initial design does not necessarily mean best design. The game has undergone numerous changes both good and bad depending on who you ask. There is a short, defined list of who can attack you in lowsec and nullsec also. It's called local. It's called high security space. Not low or null. It is intended to be safer. If a highsec pvp group can wardec me on a whim because I was seen undocking in something bigger than a T1 cruiser, how is that any different in practice than lowsec? Ubiquitous wardecs would break highsec in a matter of weeks, and considering how much of the player base is in highsec, it's no wonder CCP has gone in the opposite direction. My point was that highsec is suppose to have risk, and more importantly is a place intended to have conflict. Wardecs are intended to allow that conflict to take place albeit in a slightly limited manner where you are not fighting everyone and anyone at once. That is a far cry from lowsec and a much safer environment, or "higher" security. You were never intended by CCP, or are now required to be locked into a war. The NPC corp is suppose to be a place for you flee to if you have had enough of a war. The problem is when players gain all the benefits of being in a player corp (which are suppose to be subject to wardecs) with none of the downsides of the NPC corp by briefly fleeing to them after a wardec is declared to shed the dec. I am not sure where you think we do not have ubiquitous wardecs right now. Any corp can be wardecced at anytime and in any number by another willing to pay the cost. All that exists now is this loophole that allows small corporations without in-space assets to dodge them trivially. Large corps and ones reliant on POSes are completely subject to the whims of highsec PvP groups as the game was originally designed - just look at the OP of this threadnaught. It will be very interesting to see how new in-space structures change this balance. This loophole could very well close itself if carebears decide that these new in-space structures are necessary for their gameplay. We have significantly less wardecs now than we would if they were unavoidable and NPC corps were heavily disincentivized, which is what you lot are arguing for. If me and my friends can, for a trivial price, engage anyone we want in highsec; how is that different in any meaningful way?
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 249	Posted - 2015.04.22 21:11:03 - [447] - Quote Danalee wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If me and my friends can, for a trivial price, engage anyone we want in highsec; how is that different in any meaningful way? Yes, when you and your dinky friends wardec anyone it's game over for them isn't it You could single handedly ruin hisec for everyone! It's not like players in Hisec are real people that can talk and maybe play the game and stuff... Jeezus, how could we be so blind. D. How do you play the game while being permacamped by people you don't have the SP or assets to fight?
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1385	Posted - 2015.04.22 21:12:59 - [448] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Danalee wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If me and my friends can, for a trivial price, engage anyone we want in highsec; how is that different in any meaningful way? Yes, when you and your dinky friends wardec anyone it's game over for them isn't it You could single handedly ruin hisec for everyone! It's not like players in Hisec are real people that can talk and maybe play the game and stuff... Jeezus, how could we be so blind. How do you play the game while being permacamped by people you don't have the SP or assets to fight? I play it as if it was a MMORPG set in a dark hostile universe. Group up, fly smart, don't trust anyone, don't fly what I can't afford to loose... The usual. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 896	Posted - 2015.04.22 21:13:23 - [449] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: We have significantly fewer wardecs now than we would if they were unavoidable and NPC corps were heavily disincentivized, which is what you lot are arguing for. Of course we would have more wardecs as by definition they would be unavoidable. But no one here is arguing that. People here are arguing there should be consequences for declining a war and that there should be added rewards for being in, and defending a player corp. If you don't want to fight, fine. But then go to the NPC corp and carry on your business as the game was designed. Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If me and my friends can, for a trivial price, engage anyone we want in highsec; how is that different in any meaningful way? You cannot engage anyone you want in highsec using a wardec. You can engage anyone in a specific player corp in highsec who, for this exposing themselves to this risk, are benefiting from the (admittedly limited) benefits that being in a player corp provides. That is currently the situation and as you are well aware, highsec is currently a much safer place then low, null and wormhole space. There is a very real difference from being able to attack anyone anywhere without notice, or being at war with a limited number, and knowable enemy which you gather intel on.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12778	Posted - 2015.04.22 21:41:40 - [450] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: But no one here is arguing that. People here are arguing there should be consequences for declining a war and that there should be added rewards for being in, and defending a player corp. If you don't want to fight, fine. But then go to the NPC corp and carry on your business as the game was designed. And their claim is that they're special, so they should be allowed to have the best of both worlds. Their claim is that the rules should only apply to them if they feel like it, and that PvP should be something that you can turn off. Their claim is that it's somehow okay to bypass the surrender mechanic by using loopholes in the corp creation system. Their claims are pure hypocrisy, simple as that. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.

Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2174	Posted - 2015.04.22 21:55:51 - [451] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The issue is that it really depends on your own conduct, this type of war with Marmite is utterly boring, my experienced members just have no interest in chasing around Marmites GTFO type of play, so they are all playing GTA 5. When I was around there was one roam, while I was away they did three roams and we did not get anything to shoot and were happy to lose the ships we were in. So now my corpmates are not logging in, that is at the core of the issue, I have PvP players who find Marmite so boring that they don't bother logging in and I feel bad because I got them to come back to the game, wish I had waited until the 0.0 changes had been applied, would have been better. But I did give it 18 days and we did go look for some fights, so its just one of those things. Killing Marmite is not hard. They're fractional, bad at communication and careless. Their own behaviour and methods of operation render them comically vulnerable to people who're willing to attack them. They aren't boring, they're always active and they're never paying attention to you specifically. You used the term "roam" which tells me that you just don't know how to achieve kills in a highsec war, which is understandable considering the unusual nature of highsec. Specific tactics for fighting highsec wars are a little tangetical to the subject of the thread, but considering the ten billion isk in kills my alliance has achieved since we declared war on them earlier this year I can tell you for a fact that it's not Marmite that is preventing you from killing them, it is that you aren't using appropriate tactics. It's not a problem with wars that defenders don't know how to fight them, not exactly. It's a problem that highsec PVP is so rare and so exclusively dominated by dedicated PVP groups that people who aren't part of those groups never learn how to effectively fight those wars. Subsequently the post inferno meta has shifted to incredibly weak, passive defenders trying to evade wars by using corp mechanics or not logging in for weeks at a time and large, powerful groups of aggressors having to take a shotgun approach to find enough opponents who actually undock ships.
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1389	Posted - 2015.04.22 22:08:59 - [452] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The issue is that it really depends on your own conduct, this type of war with Marmite is utterly boring, my experienced members just have no interest in chasing around Marmites GTFO type of play, so they are all playing GTA 5. When I was around there was one roam, while I was away they did three roams and we did not get anything to shoot and were happy to lose the ships we were in. So now my corpmates are not logging in, that is at the core of the issue, I have PvP players who find Marmite so boring that they don't bother logging in and I feel bad because I got them to come back to the game, wish I had waited until the 0.0 changes had been applied, would have been better. But I did give it 18 days and we did go look for some fights, so its just one of those things. Killing Marmite is not hard. They're fractional, bad at communication and careless. Their own behaviour and methods of operation render them comically vulnerable to people who're willing to attack them. They aren't boring, they're always active and they're never paying attention to you specifically. You used the term "roam" which tells me that you just don't know how to achieve kills in a highsec war, which is understandable considering the unusual nature of highsec. Specific tactics for fighting highsec wars are a little tangetical to the subject of the thread, but considering the ten billion isk in kills my alliance has achieved since we declared war on them earlier this year I can tell you for a fact that it's not Marmite that is preventing you from killing them, it is that you aren't using appropriate tactics. It's not a problem with wars that defenders don't know how to fight them, not exactly. It's a problem that highsec PVP is so rare and so exclusively dominated by dedicated PVP groups that people who aren't part of those groups never learn how to effectively fight those wars. Subsequently the post inferno meta has shifted to incredibly weak, passive defenders trying to evade wars by using corp mechanics or not logging in for weeks at a time and large, powerful groups of aggressors having to take a shotgun approach to find enough opponents who actually undock ships. I hate Vimsy with a passion... OOOOH I HATE HER. But she's 100% right. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2176	Posted - 2015.04.22 22:13:20 - [453] - Quote There's a bunch of little things about the inferno war changes that are unexpectedly problematic. With the removal of the ability to retract wars carebears announced "Haha now there are consequences for foolhardy aggressors biting off more than they can chew!" however in the case of mixed or PVE focused groups, even if they manage to beat or frighten an aggressor once they don't want to be at war with them for the entire week. With the inability of the aggressor to hit the "this was a mistake" button they are instead left with the surrender system, which they're unlikely to use for pride reasons so instead they redouble their efforts and attempt to recoup their losses. Rather than adding consequences for attackers, removing the ability to retract wars just robbed defenders of the ability to win wars and make them end early.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12779	Posted - 2015.04.22 22:16:53 - [454] - Quote Oh, and as for the lie of "the shotgun wardec approach means that dec dodging has to exist". That's backwards. The shotgun wardec approach exists solely because of dec dodging. You have to spread your decs around until they stick thanks to dec dodging. And since wars aren't free, this means that people naturally congregated to larger groups to help absorb the costs. Everything carebears complain about is 100% the result of their use of the dec dodging exploit. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5382	Posted - 2015.04.22 22:24:58 - [455] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: But no one here is arguing that. People here are arguing there should be consequences for declining a war and that there should be added rewards for being in, and defending a player corp. If you don't want to fight, fine. But then go to the NPC corp and carry on your business as the game was designed. There are consequences, those consequences simply scale with the size and complexity of the corporation you attack. A 100 man corp with 4 POSes and months of industry jobs queued aren't going to disband for a wardec, are they, because it would be amassive task to get it all set back up. If the targets you are picking are just disbanding, then you are bad at picking targets, it really is that simple. Futher, the reason most corps are quite small is because war decs make it impossible to realistically grow a non-PvP corp in highsec. So again, blame the aggressors, they are the ones creating the current situation. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12779	Posted - 2015.04.22 22:27:37 - [456] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: If the targets you are picking are just disbanding, then you are bad at picking targets, it really is that simple. Wrong. If they're disbanding, they shouldn't exist at all, they should be in an NPC corp from the beginning. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5382	Posted - 2015.04.22 22:40:56 - [457] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: If the targets you are picking are just disbanding, then you are bad at picking targets, it really is that simple. Wrong. If they're disbanding, they shouldn't exist at all, they should be in an NPC corp from the beginning. Uhh, no, they can do what they want. If they want to make a tiny corp they can. If you wardec them and they are small enough to disband that's your bad choices. Stop blaming other people for your failings. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2176	Posted - 2015.04.22 22:54:19 - [458] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: war decs make it impossible to realistically grow a non-PvP corp in highsec. So again, blame the aggressors, they are the ones creating the current situation. No they don't. I know that because in 2010, prior to the inferno war changes I was in a 300 man highsec alliance and we did perfectly fine even when we were wardeced for long periods of time by different groups. I liked dealing with wardecs from random 2-10 man wardec corps, we frequently won and the people involved felt pride about helping defend their group identity. In the current environment, that alliance would perpetually be cycling through wars with large, well funded dedicated PVP groups and it probably wouldn't have lasted as well as it did. Wars aren't a bad thing, in fact I think they're necessary to make highsec an interesting place worth playing the game in, I used to view the notification of being declared war on as "A challenger approaches!" flashing on the screen. The real problem for defenders is that the present mechanics lead to them always facing very hard opponents while also being very inexperienced and for wars to be very frequent. The problem for aggressors is that in order to get anything to shoot at they need to declare enormous numbers of wars which requires the financing of a well established group. It's an imbalance that could be repaired and lead to highsec PVP actually being a fun thing again, but carebears don't actually want that to happen. They are only interested in seeing types of gameplay they don't like removed from the game.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5382	Posted - 2015.04.22 23:20:13 - [459] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: war decs make it impossible to realistically grow a non-PvP corp in highsec. So again, blame the aggressors, they are the ones creating the current situation. No they don't. I know that because in 2010, prior to the inferno war changes I was in a 300 man highsec alliance and we did perfectly fine even when we were wardeced for long periods of time by different groups. I liked dealing with wardecs from random 2-10 man wardec corps, we frequently won and the people involved felt pride about helping defend their group identity. Conflict with others is compelling, much more compelling than leveling my raven (no really I used to level my raven). In the current environment, that alliance would perpetually be cycling through wars with large, well funded dedicated PVP groups and it probably wouldn't have lasted as well as it did. Wars aren't a bad thing, in fact I think they're necessary to make highsec an interesting place worth playing the game in, I used to view the notification of being declared war on as "A challenger approaches!" flashing on the screen. The real problem for defenders is that the present mechanics lead to them always facing very hard opponents while also being very inexperienced and for wars to be very frequent. The problem for aggressors is that in order to get anything to shoot at they need to declare enormous numbers of wars which requires the financing of a well established group. It's an imbalance that could be repaired and lead to highsec PVP actually being a fun thing again, but carebears don't actually want that to happen. They are only interested in seeing types of gameplay they don't like removed from the game. Even back then they weren't in a good place. Most high sec non-PvP corps only really worked because dec shields existed. I think the entire mechanic nees to be dropped and rebuilt. There definitely should be a highsec aggression mechanic, but a "turn off concord" button is always going to have problems. The way I see it, any mechanic that replaces it has to encourage people to risk more to gain more on both sides. As the mechanic stands, wardeccers stand to gain the most by attacking the weakest targets while targets gain the most from staying small and evading, which is pretty much the opposite on both counts. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2176	Posted - 2015.04.22 23:56:29 - [460] - Quote Dec shields, both the alliance hopping method and declaring war on yourself with alts used to be classified as exploits and large highsec entities existed prior to those being declassified. Dreddit comes to mind as a large, successful entity that existed as a highsec group during that period and it turns out they did perfectly well. The problems back then were pretty specific. The corporate vote system was ********, the 3 war limit was excessively restrictive, the cost of wars between two corporations was too low and the surrender mechanic was utterly non-functional. Really all of that was just a lack of iteration, the base cost of wars should probably have been brought up to 10ish million per war, the corporation vote should not have existed and the surrender mechanic should have been made to work without both CEOs being docked in the same station. This current system is a hot mess, and it was worse when it was initially implemented.

Jenshae Chiroptera 1379	Posted - 2015.04.23 00:48:09 - [461] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: You misunderstand. A corp that is PvE focussed and has some PvP players is going to be less effective at PvP than a dedicated PvP group who do nothing but PvP. I like to believe that well done PVE is prepared for PVP but then I live in Null, WH dive and don't min-max for ISK but to drag anyone that catches us down with us. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow Fozzie is treating a symptom.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2177	Posted - 2015.04.23 01:41:09 - [462] - Quote We've done the thing where a bunch of people declare war on marmite all at once and punch their teeth in. It's not that entertaining.
Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 579	Posted - 2015.04.23 03:06:54 - [463] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: We've done the thing where a bunch of people declare war on marmite all at once and punch their teeth in. It's not that entertaining. Yea, wars in Eve don't accomplish much. Losing a war is no big deal...the whole thing is nonsensical.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2179	Posted - 2015.04.23 03:27:05 - [464] - Quote Oh it accomplished plenty. Marmite sure as hell doesn't ally into our wars any more, actually no English speaking group does. There's just less fun to gang up on marmite than there is to playing a different game for weeks then suddenly showimg up in force with no particular provocation, making something explode then going back to your other game. They're a big clumsy beast that doesn't respond quickly they have poor US TZ representation. This way is much better.
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 249	Posted - 2015.04.23 04:08:41 - [465] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The issue is that it really depends on your own conduct, this type of war with Marmite is utterly boring, my experienced members just have no interest in chasing around Marmites GTFO type of play, so they are all playing GTA 5. When I was around there was one roam, while I was away they did three roams and we did not get anything to shoot and were happy to lose the ships we were in. So now my corpmates are not logging in, that is at the core of the issue, I have PvP players who find Marmite so boring that they don't bother logging in and I feel bad because I got them to come back to the game, wish I had waited until the 0.0 changes had been applied, would have been better. But I did give it 18 days and we did go look for some fights, so its just one of those things. Killing Marmite is not hard. They're fractional, bad at communication and careless. Their own behaviour and methods of operation render them comically vulnerable to people who're willing to attack them. They aren't boring, they're always active and they're never paying attention to you specifically. You used the term "roam" which tells me that you just don't know how to achieve kills in a highsec war, which is understandable considering the unusual nature of highsec. Specific tactics for fighting highsec wars are a little tangetical to the subject of the thread, but considering the ten billion isk in kills my alliance has achieved since we declared war on them earlier this year I can tell you for a fact that it's not Marmite that is preventing you from killing them, it is that you aren't using appropriate tactics. It's not a problem with wars that defenders don't know how to fight them, not exactly. It's a problem that highsec PVP is so rare and so exclusively dominated by dedicated PVP groups that people who aren't part of those groups never learn how to effectively fight those wars. Subsequently the post inferno meta has shifted to incredibly weak, passive defenders trying to evade wars by using corp mechanics or not logging in for weeks at a time and large, powerful groups of aggressors having to take a shotgun approach to find enough opponents who actually undock ships. Station hugging. Neutral logi and gank Vindis. Logon traps. Am I close?
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 385	Posted - 2015.04.23 04:23:46 - [466] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Station hugging. Neutral logi and gank Vindis. Logon traps. Am I close? It's better then stabbed farming plex's in fw all day You see what i did there? I made a completly untrue assumption about the way you play with no reaserch for the purpose of arguing and not for the purpose of changing anything Now to demonstrate some knowledge based on research You don't in fact stab farm plexs all day (or if you do I'm yet to see you) You seem to be a fairly solid frigate pilot in solo and gangs and have a myriad of losses and kills to your name to show just that. You play ****** little suspect games at times (I do too incidently) and have had some success doing that. that play style however is more hated and stereotyped then even our wardecs. mostly and you have 0 sound knowledge of how to be successful in a wardec rich environment and instead spout of stereotypes instead of checking a kill board or actually displaying some idea of experience. Now Instead of meaningless back and forth why don't you do your own research into it?. perhaps join a wardec corp for 8 weeks. Make sure you have 1 decent merc on merc war and see what the attraction truly is. then the next time somebody knocks you for suspect games in Nakugaurd (i really do need to police my space better ) you can tell them to give it a try themselves. perhaps they will like it? you never know if you truly like something until you have done it Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 839	Posted - 2015.04.23 06:03:44 - [467] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The issue is that it really depends on your own conduct, this type of war with Marmite is utterly boring, my experienced members just have no interest in chasing around Marmites GTFO type of play, so they are all playing GTA 5. When I was around there was one roam, while I was away they did three roams and we did not get anything to shoot and were happy to lose the ships we were in. So now my corpmates are not logging in, that is at the core of the issue, I have PvP players who find Marmite so boring that they don't bother logging in and I feel bad because I got them to come back to the game, wish I had waited until the 0.0 changes had been applied, would have been better. But I did give it 18 days and we did go look for some fights, so its just one of those things. Killing Marmite is not hard. They're fractional, bad at communication and careless. Their own behaviour and methods of operation render them comically vulnerable to people who're willing to attack them. They aren't boring, they're always active and they're never paying attention to you specifically. You used the term "roam" which tells me that you just don't know how to achieve kills in a highsec war, which is understandable considering the unusual nature of highsec. Specific tactics for fighting highsec wars are a little tangetical to the subject of the thread, but considering the ten billion isk in kills my alliance has achieved since we declared war on them earlier this year I can tell you for a fact that it's not Marmite that is preventing you from killing them, it is that you aren't using appropriate tactics. It's not a problem with wars that defenders don't know how to fight them, not exactly. It's a problem that highsec PVP is so rare and so exclusively dominated by dedicated PVP groups that people who aren't part of those groups never learn how to effectively fight those wars. Subsequently the post inferno meta has shifted to incredibly weak, passive defenders trying to evade wars by using corp mechanics or not logging in for weeks at a time and large, powerful groups of aggressors having to take a shotgun approach to find enough opponents who actually undock ships. That's a very good post as normal from you, and I agree with you in terms of the tactics carried out by my two FC's, I would have done it differently but deferred to them. When I was war dec'd by Deadly Fingertips I mucked them around on Jita 4-4 undock, they did not renew the war dec, I wanted to do the same to Marmite, but one of my guys has a phobia about the lag in Jita. But here again is the issue, there is nothing to fight over, going after a load of GTFO ships is like dealing with one or two Cynabals who come into your 0.0 system and pick off fast tackle and inattentive people. In 0.0 I could of course just keep everyone tight and they would run off and find easier prey, but that does not work in hisec. I could have sorted it out and changed tack, but with GTA 5 being released I cannot get them interested and as such with them not logging in I have to go with other ways, which is the traditional way of avoiding war decs. And I bet so many people who get war dec'd end up with the same issue as I have. As a person I wanted to fight war decs, and so does the CEO of the other corp in my alliance, but if your players stop logging in what can you do. Your alliance is my number one pick as mercs to hire, I have kept tabs on the mercs who do more than others and your alliance certainly does that. Ella's Snack bar
Tora Bushido EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 2332	Posted - 2015.04.23 06:48:54 - [468] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: If you removed the mechanisms for avoiding wardecs, how would that highsec retain any security advantage over other regions? It would be lowsec for any pvp entity with deep pockets. Just as low-sec is null-sec with safe stations ? YOU EITHER LOVE US OR WE HATE YOU - DELETE THE WEAK , ADAPT OR DIE !
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1396	Posted - 2015.04.23 10:57:53 - [469] - Quote Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved. Being offline = more effort than killing stuff 24/7. Welcome to the wonderful TWILIGHT world of dracvlad, the impaler of common sense. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 839	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:11:57 - [470] - Quote Danalee wrote: Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved. Being offline = more effort than killing stuff 24/7. Welcome to the wonderful TWILIGHT world of dracvlad, the impaler of common sense. D. Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX... Ella's Snack bar

Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1397	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:23:25 - [471] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX... This one I'll do, next ones I refer you to my post above. You argument falls under: - Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved. and - When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target. Trolls : 0 Good guys: 1 D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 398	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:28:25 - [472] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Danalee wrote: Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved. Being offline = more effort than killing stuff 24/7. Welcome to the wonderful TWILIGHT world of dracvlad, the impaler of common sense. D. Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX... What are these GTFO ships you speak of? Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1398	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:30:38 - [473] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Danalee wrote: Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved. Being offline = more effort than killing stuff 24/7. Welcome to the wonderful TWILIGHT world of dracvlad, the impaler of common sense. Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX... What are these GTFO ships you speak of? Noragen, you silly willy, it's any ship he can't be bothered to try and catch. As aggressors, we should only fly the ships our target wants us to fly in locations they want us to be in. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 839	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:31:36 - [474] - Quote Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX... This one I'll do, next ones I refer you to my post above. You argument falls under: - Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved. and - When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target. Trolls : 0 Good guys: 1 D. That's you infantile interpretation, but if you want to go with that feel free Ella's Snack bar
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1398	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:35:36 - [475] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX... You argument falls under: - Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved. and - When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target. Trolls : 0 Good guys: 1 That's you infantile interpretation, but if you want to go with that feel free they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5 Ergo: GTA5 is causing people not to play EVE. they give NOFUX Ergo: They aren't entertained and should be by the aggressor. ^^ Prove me wrong or stop whinging. D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 839	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:40:51 - [476] - Quote Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Whatever you think, but they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5, guess which one wins, in other words it is s symptom of the issue with war decs, they give NOFUX... You argument falls under: - Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved. and - When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target. Trolls : 0 Good guys: 1 That's you infantile interpretation, but if you want to go with that feel free they have a choice try to catch people who are in GTFO ships or GTA 5 Ergo: GTA5 is causing people not to play EVE. they give NOFUX Ergo: They aren't entertained and should be by the aggressor. ^^ Prove me wrong or stop whinging. D. Telling it as it is, the old players who have been playing since 2003 did not find the content engaging, so they played another game, is that so difficult to understand. Ella's Snack bar
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1399	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:43:27 - [477] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Telling it as it is, the old players who have been playing since 2003 did not find the content engaging, so they played another game, is that so difficult to understand. If we wardec you, in your twisted reality does that mean that it is to provide YOU content? What were you doing before the wardec and why wouldn't you continue doing it? How on earth can you think anyone is responsible for your entertainment other than you?! And what, pray tell, does that have to do with the wardec system? At all?! D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12786	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:49:35 - [478] - Quote I see Dracvlad is still substituting his anecdotes for actual facts. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 839	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:51:49 - [479] - Quote Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Telling it as it is, the old players who have been playing since 2003 did not find the content engaging, so they played another game, is that so difficult to understand. If we wardec you, in your twisted reality does that mean that it is to provide YOU content? What were you doing before the wardec and why wouldn't you continue doing it? How on earth can you think anyone is responsible for your entertainment other than you?! And what, pray tell, does that have to do with the wardec system? At all?! D. I have been entertained, problem was that most of my corp mates are playing another game, they have no interest in your alliance. Ella's Snack bar
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1400	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:53:54 - [480] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: I have been entertained, problem was that most of my corp mates are playing another game, they have no interest in your alliance. Ok, so that's YOUR problem, YOUR corp mates weren't entertained by YOU so THEY went and played GTA. Tell me again, about the topic at hand (wardecs being/not being broken) what is your stance and why? D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Vechtor DuPont Enterprises 34	Posted - 2015.04.23 12:16:52 - [481] - Quote I think people have misconceptions of what PVP means. EVE provides many forms of PVP. PVP is when one player takes advantage over another player, doesn't necessarily mean this has to happen by destroying their ships. Combat is just one form of PVP. There are plenty others. There are lots of PVP in station trading. Lots of PVP in manipulating corps, infiltrating, spying, etc. There are lots of PVP when you have to do something in low or null simply dodging combat. I find it is really boring after all those years of EVE existence that we still have people complaining of game mechanics because of lack of PVP. CODE. for example found the dumbest kind of PVP I could think of but still, it is PVP. If a miner or something looses a ship to CODE., well, adapt and find other means to PVP, meaning, to mine in safety and take advantage of CODE.'s dumbness. People complain of wardec mechanics, that decs are broken, etc... A Wardec is a means for you to try to find combat. There are several others. If you go to lo-sec you'll find more combat. If you go to null you will find even more combat without the drawbacks from CONCORD. So, whatGÇÖs there to complain? I never understood why people complain of lack of PVP in hi-sec. There is a reason for it to be called hi-sec. There is a reason for lo-sec to be called lo-sec and there is a reason for null-sec to be called null-sec. There is a reason for you to have such ample spaces in lo-sec and null-sec too. Not satisfied yet? Well there are also WHs which are null-secs appearing everywhere. Just my 2 cent.
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1400	Posted - 2015.04.23 12:25:00 - [482] - Quote Vechtor, in part I follow your thoughts. Only thing is without PVP of the 'shooty shooty ship' kind, everything looses worth and the game will suffer for it. You agree/understand? D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 839	Posted - 2015.04.23 12:35:20 - [483] - Quote Danalee wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I have been entertained, problem was that most of my corp mates are playing another game, they have no interest in your alliance. Ok, so that's YOUR problem, YOUR corp mates weren't entertained by YOU so THEY went and played GTA. Tell me again, about the topic at hand (wardecs being/not being broken) what is your stance and why? D. What the game was offering them, and what they could be bothered to do did not engage them, I was away for a week and when I came back they were not logging in, so hard to get back from that isn't it. My stance is pretty simple, there has to be reasons to fight for the defenders, some advantage that they have, hopefully something in the new structures, or something that will shorten the war dec., the broken part which annoys you is people being able to drop to NPC corps or dissolve and recreate the corps, these balance against the continuous war dec with no objective or even aim, both are rubbish mechanics, but that's how it is, they balance off. I have read the other thread and found some interesting ideas there, but won't post there because I see that as a place for your group to express your ideas. Some people have engaged there to talk about the people you war dec, but still at the end of it all you get to the problem that hit me, will people log in? The question is will people log in to play something that is not fun for them, no matter how you want to spin it that is the issue, initially I thought that the structures could create a reason to fight but to be honest the more I think about it the less and less that seems likely, people will just go for the lower level reward for example against the certain loss of that structure which they deem they cannot defend, and you lot will call for more and more penalties until they deem its so not worth it that they will stop playing. In any case it hardly matters to me at this point I listened to what Lucas said, and acted on it, you can just add me and my alliance as another group that has decided to dis-engage. And this is also where I now disengage with this thread, I have said what I thought, I enjoyed one war dec where there was an objective, I did not enjoy other war decs that only had an objective of green on the killboard and GTFO. I will now just play Eve at a very superficial basis, do nothing serious and just not log in if its something that does not interest me, like my corp mates. \o/ and thanks for all the fish Ella's Snack bar
Danalee Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 1400	Posted - 2015.04.23 12:51:49 - [484] - Quote Mister Dracvlad, to summarize, You argument falls under: - Wardecs are broken because GTA5. If CCP fixes GTA5 (make it suck or something) everything is solved. and - When you wardec someone, as agressor you have an obligation to entertain your target. and - There has to be reasons to fight for the defenders but don't force PVP on us! and - When you are under a wardec you can't play the game like you want because someone could be flying a fast ship somewhere and you can't catch it. and - NPC corps are fine as they stand because nullbears should always be able to go to jita with their spoils and sell them at markup without anyone hindering them. and - farming isk without consequence should be A-OK. and - Wardec by marmites/other big merc groups don't matter because marmites/other big merc groups suck but you still shouldn't play the game when you are decced. Also dracvlad wrote: Damn you and your facts, reality and common sense, I'm taking my ball and going home. Final tally: Trolls : 0 Good guys: 2 D. Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5392	Posted - 2015.04.23 12:58:28 - [485] - Quote Danalee wrote: Wardecs are broken because GTA5. Actually, what he's saying is that from his side wardecs are less entertaining than simply playing another game. Games are designed for entertainment, and even when you are losing should maintain a good level of entertainment. Some of EVE's mechanics (usually the older ones such as wardecs) aren't like that, because the difference in capability can mean that a player is unable to realistically do anything while being defeated, leading to low entertainment value. From a game design perspective these are pitfalls that should always be avoided. It's really not that hard to understand, and your constant misrepresentation of this is only discrediting yourself. It all boils down to the way wardecs promote attacking the weakest targets. You aren't rewarded for taking on a higher challenge, like how level 1 missions pay less but are easier than level 2s, but instead you get more by picking valuable but incredibly weak targets. Danalee wrote: Noragen, you silly willy, it's any ship he can't be bothered to try and catch. As aggressors, we should only fly the ships our target wants us to fly in locations they want us to be in. I imagine it's the ships designed to evade if engaged. They are generally a chore to chase and 99% of the time safe. It's the same reason we don't bother trying to chase down cloaky T3s in null, because they'll only get caught if they want to. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Vechtor DuPont Enterprises 35	Posted - 2015.04.23 13:00:10 - [486] - Quote Danalee wrote: Vechtor, in part I follow your thoughts. Only thing is without PVP of the 'shooty shooty ship' kind, everything looses worth and the game will suffer for it. You agree/understand? D. OFC I agree/understand. Our corp is currently in a hi-sec war I dec'ed. Few fights have taken place since I started dec'ing this Corp and even tho I had bad luck not to get final blows for DUPO, we are winning in terms of isk lost/destroyed. OFC EVE has to have pew pew PVP type working. My point is: it always had. What I do see, tho, is people who lacks capacity of adaptation complaining they don't know how to adapt. Doesn't make any sense.
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 4437	Posted - 2015.04.23 18:33:48 - [487] - Quote I have removed a rule breaking post. The Rules: 5. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Valedictio Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 37	Posted - 2015.04.23 20:15:38 - [488] - Quote Okay I'm back for my tuppence worth, I can sympathise in some regards with the aggressor corps when small entities disband and reform thereby rendering a war with them meaningless, however have you thought that there may be a reason for it ? I have minimal experience as an aggressor and a little experience with 1 man and sort of 1 man war decs ( til it was declared an exploit) very few large corps have war decced my empire toons and the ones that did I never saw hide nor hair of, (must have been the shotgun affect). If you bear with me, I believe that eve and its culture has ruined the chance of a high sec empire alliance for a few reasons, the basic being the firm rule of 'never trust anyone'. Pure PvE becomes boring (after a while, for a new player it is exciting and can be challenging and result in losses), that is a fact, I doubt anyone could seriously play for too long doing the same thing repeatedly, hence I vary my own playstyle with various accounts otherwise I would have left long ago, like so many of the RL friends I started with. Currently I am rather inactive due to a boredom factor after leaving our last null home and the vast majority leaving with quotes of 'there is no challenge left' or 'its boring for me now', some of those being closed beta players with some serious assets. I feel that there is no real reason for empire wars for the simple fact that aside from assets in space, there is simply nothing worthwhile to fight over, so if a small PvE corps is war decced by a PvP corps and feel they have no way to defeat them then it is simply a choice of 'do we bother' ? if it happens continuously then it becomes 'do we bother with this game'. This entrenched view of 'this is a pew pew game, HTFU or GTFO' does nothing to educate or enlighten the average casual empire player, they shun contact with other players (Rule 1 Trust NOBODY), possibly like myself some will be earning isk for other activities, you do not know who is an alt or this that or the next, hence a complete lack of trust and no large corps/alliances forming. Stick your head over the parapet and it gets shot off. It seems that the vast majority of players are risk adverse to loss, if you believe it is all down to 'carebear' empire dwellers then ask yourself one question, where did the term 'blueball' come from. It seems that the easy way with the least amount of disruption for small entities is to disband/reform and 'blueball' aggressors ? When I first started you could chat to people in local, nowadays it is all smacktalk if there is anything at all, I am too RL old to be bothered with childish he said/she said garbage. I love this game with all it's complexities, it's only problem lies in the attitude of the player, life is what you make it, if you are not willing to work for what you want, then you simply don't deserve it. You want to pick on the little kid in the park, then expect him to try and run away and hide to avoid a beating, as they say HTFU or GTFO, whatever. Some of you may just pick a bit here or there from this and attempt to elicit a response, tbh I couldn't really care. and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium. Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON'
Darth Terona Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 51	Posted - 2015.04.24 00:57:01 - [489] - Quote Look op. Right after my nullsec stent I was hired to help train Amarr noobs to pvp in a newly formed corp Soon after our numbers grew to the teens, marmite deced us. Aside from the CEO, myself and one other, no one in my corp did any pvp before. I'm no military director, but I was able to throw together f1 fleets of noobs to combat the marmites. We flew cheap frigs and cruisers and won many engagements with my, at the time, limited pvp experience. In the end we did get our asses handed to us but won marmites respect. We where even offered a spot on their war machine not because we where good, but because we stood our ground and took the war for what it was. FUN! Stand your ground. Fight with class, never trash local. Accept war as a part of eve. Everything in eve is pvp. From mining to marketing to planetary interaction. Every facet of this game has you competing with someone else Throw together a fleet mr. Military director... Chuckles.! And defend your way of eve!
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2196	Posted - 2015.04.24 01:51:52 - [490] - Quote GTA5 is pretty effective at making my entire alliance not play EVE. This is a problem experienced by everyone.

Mike Adoulin Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters 1253	Posted - 2015.04.24 02:00:17 - [491] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: GTA5 is pretty effective at making my entire alliance not play EVE. This is a problem experienced by everyone. Just wait until World of Warships goes into open beta. hops in his pimped out Kongo-class BB and starts shooting some Burning Love Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg. Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Vector Symian 0 Fear 789	Posted - 2015.04.24 05:09:08 - [492] - Quote Master Otard we had relatively good success staying in npc corps and setting up a separate channel. They have the tax but the wardeccs are completely eradicated if we had a major op we would simply link up to a slave corp do the deed and drop out...keeping the tax at 0 of course it has worked but never stay in the same place...it is the nomad life for you unfortunately (once they identify a spike in activity on the map they have a sniff around and set up shop if they like what they see)
Noragen Neirfallas Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective 414	Posted - 2015.04.24 07:01:28 - [493] - Quote Vector Symian wrote: Master Otard we had relatively good success staying in npc corps and setting up a separate channel. They have the tax but the wardeccs are completely eradicated if we had a major op we would simply link up to a slave corp do the deed and drop out...keeping the tax at 0 of course it has worked but never stay in the same place...it is the nomad life for you unfortunately (once they identify a spike in activity on the map they have a sniff around and set up shop if they like what they see) This is why npc corps need to have a much harsher tax affecting lp and mining yeilds not just isk and a new kind of corp 'Social corp' needs to happen that has restrictions like inability to affect the landscape by placing structures and what not as a trade off of not being decced needs to happen. NPC corps are cancer. That is all Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 839	Posted - 2015.04.24 10:02:17 - [494] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Vector Symian wrote: Master Otard we had relatively good success staying in npc corps and setting up a separate channel. They have the tax but the wardeccs are completely eradicated if we had a major op we would simply link up to a slave corp do the deed and drop out...keeping the tax at 0 of course it has worked but never stay in the same place...it is the nomad life for you unfortunately (once they identify a spike in activity on the map they have a sniff around and set up shop if they like what they see) This is why npc corps need to have a much harsher tax affecting lp and mining yeilds not just isk and a new kind of corp 'Social corp' needs to happen that has restrictions like inability to affect the landscape by placing structures and what not as a trade off of not being decced needs to happen. NPC corps are cancer. That is all The issue you have as a hisec operator is do you want to kill hisec off completely, new ores in null, a real advantage manufacturing in null, do you really want to see no one in hisec and no market? At the moment I cannot see any hisec operation that could set up a structure which is entosis link size (a station basically) and expect to keep it for long. I have read your posts in the other thread you started and can see you have some great ideas, but please step out side of your own self-interests and sit in the shoes of the people you go after and think it through and also look at the changes in the game. In fact I think Tora has done just that in how he is trying to change Marmite and all credit to him. Ella's Snack bar
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1098	Posted - 2015.04.24 11:11:35 - [495] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: NPC corps are cancer. That is all I'm sure no-one uses NPC hauler pilots. Nope. Everyone's e-honor is pure here. Or...eh...not
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 23647	Posted - 2015.04.25 02:03:09 - [496] - Quote afkalt wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: NPC corps are cancer. That is all I'm sure no-one uses NPC hauler pilots. Nope. Everyone's e-honor is pure here. Or...eh...not lol true enough, I certainly use 3rd party haulers that use NPC alts to do the scutwork. I think the more correct statement would be that some NPC corp members are cancer. The cancer is the people that sit in them spouting the sociopath crap, as well as actively discouraging others from dipping their toes into lowsec, nullsec, wh's and other fun pursuits like crime etc. On the flipside you have groups within the NPC corps that do the exact opposite, actively encouraging and organising people to dip their toes into anything and everything there is to do; I'd guess at a fair few of them actively recruiting for their mains corps too. The hard part is finding out about them, which is a shame and I feel CCP could do more to expose people to them; social corps may well be just the thing they need. Used in the right way they can be a powerful tool. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Brian Damidge Junkyard Gunners. Strange Phenomenon 0	Posted - 2015.05.31 13:09:00 - [497] - Quote I may be being ridiculously naive but the war dec fee is just a bribe for CONCORD to look the other way right? If so, why can't the defender approach CONCORD and give them a little bit more to pay attention again? Want to shoot someone in High sec? Pay the bribe. Don't want the guys who bribed CONCORD to shoot you, drop a nice bag of isk on their front counter to not look the other way. Seems pretty simple and uses an existing premise to do it.
Noragen Neirfallas Cheeki Breeki Corp Meet The Bandits. 838	Posted - 2015.05.31 13:21:14 - [498] - Quote Brian Damidge wrote: I may be being ridiculously naive but the war dec fee is just a bribe for CONCORD to look the other way right? If so, why can't the defender approach CONCORD and give them a little bit more to pay attention again? Want to shoot someone in High sec? Pay the bribe. Don't want the guys who bribed CONCORD to shoot you, drop a nice bag of isk on their front counter to not look the other way. Seems pretty simple and uses an existing premise to do it. 3 things. 1 this is isk shield and raises the bar on wardec costs for both parties. Basically the so called new bro getting griefed out of the game wouldn't be able to afford this option. The only people who would benefit are the stupidly rich. 2 there is a thread suggesting this in f&I ATM that you could lend your support too and read the many reasons this wouldn't be a good thing. 3 isd moved this thread here to die because its got about a dozen relevant posts in the entire thing Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Forum BFFL of Mo
Carrie-Anne Moss Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 170	Posted - 2015.05.31 14:22:05 - [499] - Quote Brian Damidge wrote: I may be being ridiculously naive but the war dec fee is just a bribe for CONCORD to look the other way right? If so, why can't the defender approach CONCORD and give them a little bit more to pay attention again? Want to shoot someone in High sec? Pay the bribe. Don't want the guys who bribed CONCORD to shoot you, drop a nice bag of isk on their front counter to not look the other way. Seems pretty simple and uses an existing premise to do it. The mafia would be extremely upset if the cops they bribed to look the other way suddenly started looking back their way cuz someone gave them some more money.
Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 587	Posted - 2015.05.31 15:40:35 - [500] - Quote Fundamentally wardecs are broken because they try to force highsec players into PvP combat that they don't desire. Quite reasonably those folks avail themselves of mechanisms to avoid such combat, including NPC corps and throwaway one man corps. The better solution is to realize that you cannot force people to engage in in-game activities that they despise, and to do away with the whole war system.

Omar Alharazaad Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 1749	Posted - 2015.05.31 16:16:41 - [501] - Quote Yeah, um. That's not gonna happen. Wardec fees are one of those things that makes ISK actually go away. Those merc alliances that literally make their living off of wars oftentimes dump billions of ISK into concord's pocket in a single week. There has to be some, even though paltry, counter to ISK being endlessly printed from npc bounties and whatnot. The sploded ships that result from wardecs also increase demand for more ships and modules. Wardecs may need work, but taking them away completely would not be good for the game. Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 587	Posted - 2015.05.31 17:16:24 - [502] - Quote Omar Alharazaad wrote: Yeah, um. That's not gonna happen. Wardec fees are one of those things that makes ISK actually go away. Those merc alliances that literally make their living off of wars oftentimes dump billions of ISK into concord's pocket in a single week. There has to be some, even though paltry, counter to ISK being endlessly printed from npc bounties and whatnot. The sploded ships that result from wardecs also increase demand for more ships and modules. Wardecs may need work, but taking them away completely would not be good for the game. I fail to see why isk going away is a good thing so long as rampant mining is swamping isk production and leading to widespread deflation.
Noragen Neirfallas Cheeki Breeki Corp Meet The Bandits. 839	Posted - 2015.05.31 17:52:33 - [503] - Quote Veers Belvar wrote: Omar Alharazaad wrote: Yeah, um. That's not gonna happen. Wardec fees are one of those things that makes ISK actually go away. Those merc alliances that literally make their living off of wars oftentimes dump billions of ISK into concord's pocket in a single week. There has to be some, even though paltry, counter to ISK being endlessly printed from npc bounties and whatnot. The sploded ships that result from wardecs also increase demand for more ships and modules. Wardecs may need work, but taking them away completely would not be good for the game. I fail to see why isk going away is a good thing so long as rampant mining is swamping isk production and leading to widespread deflation. Wow. Just wow Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Forum BFFL of Mo
Mobadder Thworst Noob Farmers Bad Neighbors. 447	Posted - 2015.05.31 18:41:10 - [504] - Quote I actually agree with the OP. However, I see it from the agressor side of the fence. I think the massive pvp alliances are bad... And are a direct result of the war dec fee increase of a couple years ago. Back then, first war was 2 mil, second was 4, third was 6 (all corp to corp, corp vs alliance was 50). Corps could only declare war on 3 opponents at a time. Alliances could do unlimited wars, but for escalating cost. I'm sure CCP expected less war decs with increased prices and they did effectively dissolve the small war dec corps (typically 3 to 5 guys). Sadly, because all those guys could no longer afford to high sec pew in small groups, the banded together to pool Isk for large quantities of war decs. Can flipping was nerfed so hard that casual high sec PVP is nearly dead.... Which is destroying one of the best noob training opportunities. I feel for the noobs of today. There are very few baiters now... Which means few opportunities to dabble in pvp. If you are building a corp, the war decs are going to be against a large powerful alliance instead of a 3 or 5 person corp. Back before the changes, pvp'ers in high sec got fights by looking weak... Which is why the corps were so small... You had to be small and fly small to prevent opponents from avoiding contact. Now it's just brute force... If you have 30 people in a corp you should be ready to fight a 200 person pvp alliance. I see this as the functional outcome of the new system. Personally, I think reversing grief watch and the elevated wardec costs would correct most of the issue. The current system really isn't ideal for anyone.


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