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Jordan Kandou Worley
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2015.05.07 18:01:18 -
[1] - Quote
I always assumed that suicide gankers didn't want items too large, as it would just be a waste of time since they can't scoop it up without a industrial around to move it.
Until I was ganked for capital sized modules, 16,000m3
So.... what's the criteria for suicide ganks? |
Pius Pareka
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 18:04:18 -
[2] - Quote
Bragging value of the killmail. |
Stacy Lone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 18:06:01 -
[3] - Quote
What makes you think they can't scoop it? Neutral hauler alt ftw.
Besides, tears are better then loot. And popping capital mods is always fun.
|
Hengle Teron
Just Another Corp XIV
49791
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 18:13:40 -
[4] - Quote
be there, be dead |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
3439
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 18:20:05 -
[5] - Quote
Jordan Kandou Worley wrote: So.... what's the criteria for suicide ganks?
An easy target.
If you're carrying more ISK in potential drops than it takes to gank you, you're a target.
If you're afk/unaware/asleep at the wheel you're a target.
If it'd be fun to gank you and people want tears/lulz, you're a target. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1777
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 18:23:11 -
[6] - Quote
Fun, tears and profit. The order might be wrong... |
Commissar Kate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
402300
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 18:30:25 -
[7] - Quote
People who complain about ganking on the forums.
-k8
My Fanclub
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Strawberry Mooses
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 18:35:42 -
[8] - Quote
Criteria: Target must be a player of "EVE Online" and in a internet spaceship. Everything else depends on the ganker(s). Common sense will make you safer, but never 100% "safe". Working as intended. |
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CCP Bartender
C C P C C P Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 19:00:14 -
[9] - Quote
Most gankers will have alts in industrials to scoop the loot.
For professionals, the criteria is cost of ships they have to suicide to kill you vs value of your loot. Career gankers only attack targets with a loot value greater than 2x the value of the ships they need to sacrifice, because the loot fairy has a 50% chance to drop, so on average they'll do better than break even if they use the >2x metric.
I went and looked up some obelisk losses on zkillboard, looks like it takes about 10 talos' to kill one. Each talos seems to be worth about 100mil, so 10 of them is 1bil, so cost effective gankers will be looking for freighters with more than 2bil in the cargo, and sure enough, all the ganks I saw on zkillboard that don't involve plastic wrap are more than 2bil
Not sure what the number is like for normal industrials, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was around the 30mil mark (~3 t2 fit catalysts). |
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
992
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 19:01:03 -
[10] - Quote
Jordan Kandou Worley wrote:So.... what's the criteria for suicide ganks? For me, the first criteria is whether you have a permit or not.
You don't seem to have a permit... |
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
5419
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 19:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
You have their stuff. It may be in your hold, but it's their stuff.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Leoric Firesword
Rolling Static Gone Critical
126
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 19:29:19 -
[12] - Quote
I've always looked at it this way. If you're in space you're a target.
I've had people suicide gank my noob ships before, with absolutely nothing in the hold. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6627
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 20:21:31 -
[13] - Quote
The criteria, from the funding source, is interdiction of highsec commerce in general to boost the profits of other parties that never get ganked.
(But the perfectly legit Eve-ish motive is draped in "greifing" and "grrrr highsec" to cover that fact so to make this matter toxic and "un-game like". Can't have real level headed PVPers take interest in countering the highsec ganking or worse, role players shouting "The Ice must flow!" in local)
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 20:52:28 -
[14] - Quote
Some tips to avoid suicide ganking:
- Never AFK autopilot
- Never haul on Sundays or other high population times. Look at a server population graph and haul when the cost is lowest
- Avoid high population systems if possible
- Obey maximum cargo value rules of thumb - avoid more than 2bil in a freighter, a few hundred mil in a T2 indy, etc.
- Don't add low volume high value items in your freighter along with capital components. Taking these separately in an interceptor with short align time will be safer.
And of course the most foolproof of them all, use courier missions with high collateral. |
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
56
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 20:57:29 -
[15] - Quote
Jordan Kandou Worley wrote:So.... what's the criteria for suicide ganks?
Fun... |
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
56
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 20:57:55 -
[16] - Quote
double post mistake. |
2Sonas1Cup
113
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 21:26:49 -
[17] - Quote
Run incursions for a couple weeks All of a sudden realize you have 50 billion in your wallet And nothing to do...
this story continues tomorrow |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1321
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 21:41:31 -
[18] - Quote
We'll be aware suicide tankers will go after small ships too. If the ship is worth 100 times more than what was used being ganked, it's a target also.
Let's say you have an astero with a probe launcher. People will come after it with a cheap 500k destroyer for the 60 million kill mail and whatever dropped out of it.
Same applies to cruisers if they happen to scan good mods on it. Some are just prohibitively difficult to kill though (autopilot a brick prophecy, yea they probably won't bother much).
So people do suicide gank more than freighters. Just be conscious of that.
Yaay!!!!
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2873
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 21:56:50 -
[19] - Quote
Jordan Kandou Worley wrote:I always assumed that suicide gankers didn't want items too large, as it would just be a waste of time since they can't scoop it up without a industrial around to move it.
Until I was ganked for capital sized modules, 16,000m3
So.... what's the criteria for suicide ganks?
I have to say...I'm impressed. Instead of complaining and whining, you came and asked a good question...which by the sounds of of it you'll use the answer to try and avoid being ganked in the future.
Basically, they'll go for high value cargo. Space is not usually an issue as they'll just bring in a ship(s) big enough to scoop the loot. They also like it if you are autopiloting as it will give them a bit more time to set up a bumping ship...usually on the out gate of the system they are going to gank you in, but not always. Now that freighters can fit modules they may even do a ship scan...if they can't get enough DPS because you've fit reinforced bulkheads that might save you....but you'd be foolish to bet on it.
A scout. A scout with webs. Are probably your two best options. If you can squeeze your cargo into a transport ship, even better. Limiting the value of your cargo can help, but sometimes the gankers just want a gank. Maybe its been a slow night and a bunch of catalysts are not that much isk, so...there is always the gank for ****s and giggles.
And +1 for asking a good question.
Oh, and they might go the ransom route. Figuring your Obelisk is work 1.2-1.3 billion, plus say...500 million in cargo they might figure you'll pony up some isk not to let it get destroyed.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
23906
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 23:02:13 -
[20] - Quote
I fully oppose throwing everyone into the greed-bucket.
Especially me.
I have 99 reasons to gank ... ... but money ain't one.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
|
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
5065
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 23:20:34 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Bartender wrote:Most gankers will have alts in industrials to scoop the loot. For professionals, the criteria is cost of ships they have to suicide to kill you vs value of your loot. Career gankers only attack targets with a loot value greater than 2x the value of the ships they need to sacrifice, because the loot fairy has a 50% chance to drop, so on average they'll do better than break even if they use the >2x metric. I went and looked up some obelisk losses on zkillboard, looks like it takes about 10 talos' to kill one. Each talos seems to be worth about 100mil, so 10 of them is 1bil, so cost effective gankers will be looking for freighters with more than 2bil in the cargo, and sure enough, all the ganks I saw on zkillboard that don't involve plastic wrap are more than 2bil Not sure what the number is like for normal industrials, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was around the 30mil mark (~3 t2 fit catalysts).
This is one motive, although you are wrong about the exact formula.
Most people carrying out organised for-profit ganks will factor in 15m for security tags (on each and every ship being used) and ISK to pay the gankers (30-40m per 15min GCC is common), but you can also usually salvage half of your Talos's fitted modules.
If ganking with Taloses as a for-profit event, expect 120m per Talos to be the gankers' costs, so 240m per Talos.
If ganking with Vexors (the best ship for for-profit ganking; they cost 18m after getting half your modules back), expect the gankers' costs to be of the order 60m per Vexor, so 120m in loot is needed to justify it.
There are other motives, however.
Burning stuff to the ground is *fun*. Burning freighters is even more fun.
Finally there is definitely profit to be made from chaos. Even though I outsource all my hauling and have to pay three times as much now as I did before my alliance started hitting freighters en masse, I now make *considerably* more on regional arbitrage trading than I used to. The removal of almost all autopiloted freighters from the main highsec trade routes has dramatically increased regional price discrepancies.
As an example I recently bought 3.5b worth of the components that go into building Gallente T2 ships in Jita and had them moved to Dodixie and put them on the market. They sold for 4.4b - markups like this simply did not exist 12 months ago on such high turnover items.
I may or may not also trade in mining equipment, ganking equipment and implants...
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6628
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 00:29:17 -
[22] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:We'll be aware suicide tankers will go after small ships too. If the ship is worth 100 times more than what was used being ganked, it's a target also.
Let's say you have an astero with a probe launcher. People will come after it with a cheap 500k destroyer for the 60 million kill mail and whatever dropped out of it.
Same applies to cruisers if they happen to scan good mods on it. Some are just prohibitively difficult to kill though (autopilot a brick prophecy, yea they probably won't bother much).
So people do suicide gank more than freighters. Just be conscious of that.
SB-equipped Mallers at 10KM from a gate on a warp-in vector for a ship on AP is a good example. They are waiting for any AP capsule to gank in the hope it's a "crystal egg".
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2876
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 01:44:23 -
[23] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:We'll be aware suicide tankers will go after small ships too. If the ship is worth 100 times more than what was used being ganked, it's a target also.
Let's say you have an astero with a probe launcher. People will come after it with a cheap 500k destroyer for the 60 million kill mail and whatever dropped out of it.
Same applies to cruisers if they happen to scan good mods on it. Some are just prohibitively difficult to kill though (autopilot a brick prophecy, yea they probably won't bother much).
So people do suicide gank more than freighters. Just be conscious of that. SB-equipped Mallers at 10KM from a gate on a warp-in vector for a ship on AP is a good example. They are waiting for any AP capsule to gank in the hope it's a "crystal egg".
Since I rarely have implants in let alone expensive implants and with the removal of clone costs...the clone taxi would be appreciated. :P
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
299
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 03:15:03 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Bartender wrote:Most gankers will have alts in industrials to scoop the loot. For professionals, the criteria is cost of ships they have to suicide to kill you vs value of your loot. Career gankers only attack targets with a loot value greater than 2x the value of the ships they need to sacrifice, because the loot fairy has a 50% chance to drop, so on average they'll do better than break even if they use the >2x metric. I went and looked up some obelisk losses on zkillboard, looks like it takes about 10 talos' to kill one. Each talos seems to be worth about 100mil, so 10 of them is 1bil, so cost effective gankers will be looking for freighters with more than 2bil in the cargo, and sure enough, all the ganks I saw on zkillboard that don't involve plastic wrap are more than 2bil Not sure what the number is like for normal industrials, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was around the 30mil mark (~3 t2 fit catalysts).
This man is a professional.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1035
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 07:21:25 -
[25] - Quote
It's not about the cargo, it's about the law!
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
98
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 11:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:It's not about the cargo, it's about the law!
Pfft, profits is what it's all about. |
Amarrchecko
Hedion University Amarr Empire
54
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 11:50:35 -
[27] - Quote
What's kinda funny to me is that if people really want CCP to look at rebalancing the viability of suicide ganks, more people need to suicide gank. While all the pro-ganker sorts and CCP themselves say that the risk:reward is fine and ganking is just a part of the cold, hard space of New Eden, I bet if there were maybe only 5x as many ganks happening, they would end up tweaking things to make ganking more difficult or less rewarding or both.
Suicide ganking IS fun... for some players. I think that a lot more players would enjoy it if they gave it a whirl, too.
I have a few accounts that I set up to be a solo, high-sec industrial crew. Then I got the idea that ganking might be something fun to dabble with, and it turned out to be pretty fun. For me, it's fun organizing a number of my own accounts to pull off ganks with minimal skillpoints and isk invested, and seeing the damage I can cause by scouting out an easy target and executing the kill correctly. I don't work too quickly though, and I have to pick targets extra carefully since trying to juggling a number of accounts with one click per action against the response time of concord (or the chance of my quarry getting spooked) is a bit frantic compared to the well-organized gank squads who are using more powerful fits and ships and playing fewer accounts (even 1, maybe/probably) so they can focus on better execution and methods that would be beyond my ability (ganking on gates, monitoring undock points at busy stations, etc).
There are plenty of posts that cover this, but basically gankers are looking for people who do not do most (or even some) of the following: play in low/null/wh, scout out a good system/route to use in the first place, set standings, watch local, watch dscan, play without much AFK, fly tough ships, fly cheap ships, use strong tanks, use ECM, talk ****, or a number of other things that otherwise contribute to making it more difficult and/or less rewarding to gank. |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1321
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 11:55:53 -
[28] - Quote
Well with the expected future changes to eve (new structures, decentralizing of Delaware (aka Jita).. suicide gankers may start finding themselves with less targets.
This is still a year or two out though, and nobody knows whats going on yet.
Yaay!!!!
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
312
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 12:13:23 -
[29] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Well with the expected future changes to eve (new structures, decentralizing of Delaware (aka Jita)..
Oh yeah, baby, I'll be offering 0.11% Broker fees on my station. In Jita around the sun.
Just kidding, it's going to be in New Caldari!
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 14:04:30 -
[30] - Quote
it's the sort of passtime akin to watching them unload produce at the Publix.
I survived Win95
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Buoytender Bob
Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining
25
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 16:44:48 -
[31] - Quote
The many thoughtful and well explained replies has helped me convince my friends that gankers aren't complete sociopaths. |
Lendren
Blaze Orange Expeditions Absence of Light
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 19:41:45 -
[32] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:The criteria, from the funding source, is interdiction of highsec commerce in general to boost the profits of other parties that never get ganked.
(But the perfectly legit Eve-ish motive is draped in "greifing" and "grrrr highsec" to cover that fact so to make this matter toxic and "un-game like". Can't have real level headed PVPers take interest in countering the highsec ganking or worse, role players shouting "The Ice must flow!" in local)
The Ice must flow!
ROFL! |
DaReaper
Net 7
2020
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 19:53:12 -
[33] - Quote
as stated profit for luls or whatever. I have had a pod autoing to jita hat was ganked, i've lost an empty noob ship, and i've lost a few billion before, so it just depends
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1232
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 19:54:34 -
[34] - Quote
Logan Revelore wrote:Jordan Kandou Worley wrote:So.... what's the criteria for suicide ganks? Fun...
amen.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. Brave Collective
360
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 20:30:11 -
[35] - Quote
Buoytender Bob wrote:The many thoughtful and well explained replies has helped me convince my friends that gankers aren't complete sociopaths.
Gankers are not sociopaths at all my friend. Talk to them again.
... and buy a mining permit for them while you're at it.
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Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
70
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 02:34:52 -
[36] - Quote
ah, Gankers aren't complete sociopaths...
just immature ones. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1103
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 04:28:07 -
[37] - Quote
CCP Bartender wrote:Most gankers will have alts in industrials to scoop the loot. For professionals, the criteria is cost of ships they have to suicide to kill you vs value of your loot. Career gankers only attack targets with a loot value greater than 2x the value of the ships they need to sacrifice, because the loot fairy has a 50% chance to drop, so on average they'll do better than break even if they use the >2x metric. I went and looked up some obelisk losses on zkillboard, looks like it takes about 10 talos' to kill one. Each talos seems to be worth about 100mil, so 10 of them is 1bil, so cost effective gankers will be looking for freighters with more than 2bil in the cargo, and sure enough, all the ganks I saw on zkillboard that don't involve plastic wrap are more than 2bil Not sure what the number is like for normal industrials, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was around the 30mil mark (~3 t2 fit catalysts).
plus a little premium to make ganking worth my time over other isk making activities. alhtough it has been a long time since I've ganked.
There are also ganks for lulz, and those pretty much just involve something shiny, people like to take 20+ catalysts and gank marauders in SoE systems regardless of fit.
@ChainsawPlankto
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No Lube ForU
Down Right Dirty
5
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 08:25:16 -
[38] - Quote
Normally i just look for players doing dumb things. Havent ganked in a while due to rl But here is an example of somebody doing dumb things in game
Guess mining is a good career lol
Oops didnt know about the killmails so edited it out |
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
2865
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 08:27:27 -
[39] - Quote
No Lube ForU wrote:Normally i just look for players doing dumb things. Havent ganked in a while due to rl But here is an example of somebody doing dumb things in game KillGuess mining is a good career lol Killmails outside of C&P are not allowed and only get your post removed.
Abolish Rookiecorps
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
Him after realising rigs don't need any skills: Chris Lazeare > That changes everything
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Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
2865
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 08:28:23 -
[40] - Quote
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:ah, Gankers aren't complete sociopaths...
just immature ones. They're still better than people raging hard over lost spacepixels ... ... errr actually over the lost imaginary superiority.
Abolish Rookiecorps
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
Him after realising rigs don't need any skills: Chris Lazeare > That changes everything
|
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Dsparil
Einstein-Rosen Frontier Holdings Hell's Pirates
14
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 13:44:10 -
[41] - Quote
I do it just for the tears. It's always fun to watch people blow up and start raging in local. Sometimes it's also fun to take 50 catalysts and see if you can clean out an entire known mining system. I used to do that before retribution. It can sometimes be challenging, especially when they get angry enough the miners start camping the stations in insta-lock ships waiting for you to undock.
Fun times. |
John E Normus
New Order Logistics CODE.
555
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 17:43:33 -
[42] - Quote
It's ironic that an empty freighter usually carries the most precious resource in eve.
Between Ignorance and Wisdom
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Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
35
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Posted - 2015.05.10 02:02:15 -
[43] - Quote
here's a useful thing to do when ganking: Have 2 alts waiting at the wreck; not 1 alt. 1 alt opens the wreck and goes suspect to dump the contents of the wreck into either 1) a can (If the loot is massive) or 2) Into the fleet hangar of a deep space transport. The alt in the noobship will go suspect and die; while the hauler can warp off without consequences. It's apparently not considered an exploit because someone still loses a noobship (low value) |
Paranoid Loyd
5068
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 02:40:28 -
[44] - Quote
I look for people not properly protecting their space pixels.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Jimmy O'Shanty
The Westies
40
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Posted - 2015.05.10 04:26:46 -
[45] - Quote
Jordan Kandou Worley wrote: So.... what's the criteria for suicide ganks?
If you're unlucky enough to be on the near side of the herd you fit the criteria.
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Sykaotic
Renegade Armada.
38
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 07:32:09 -
[46] - Quote
Quote:
What do suicide gankers look for?
Hot Chicks |
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
125
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 22:43:42 -
[47] - Quote
Also note, no matter what you do, if gankers really want to kill you, they can, and will do it. No amount of prep, tank, or tactics can save you. Even if you are using a friendly webber. All they need is a ship with quicker lock time than your webber, to hold you long enough for a fleet of headshot nado's to finish get their volley off.
You can do your best to avoid all the 'small time' guys, and make it much more costly for them to hit you, but if an organized group wants you dead, there is nothing you can do short of contracting the hauling to someone else, and never undocking.
That said, i may have made a habit out of baiting several 'small-time' gankers in various pipelines with various tanked haulers with +1b in the hold...then laughing when they only take 15% out of my shield. I also know exactly what it would take to pop my ship having done the tests. It hasn't failed yet, but i'm sure the more i push my luck, the sooner it will. Might be one reason i haven't been out in those ships much lately.
Also, never break your own rules for hauling expensive stuff, no matter what, if you are too lazy that day to do it right, don't do it until you are willing to put the effort in. The moment you let complacency win...you lose. |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
185
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 07:45:51 -
[48] - Quote
It's all a conspiracy by the industrialists selling freighters.
~
~~
Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox.
~~
~
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1682
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 07:52:04 -
[49] - Quote
CCP Bartender wrote:Most gankers will have alts in industrials to scoop the loot. For professionals, the criteria is cost of ships they have to suicide to kill you vs value of your loot. Career gankers only attack targets with a loot value greater than 2x the value of the ships they need to sacrifice, because the loot fairy has a 50% chance to drop, so on average they'll do better than break even if they use the >2x metric. I went and looked up some obelisk losses on zkillboard, looks like it takes about 10 talos' to kill one. Each talos seems to be worth about 100mil, so 10 of them is 1bil, so cost effective gankers will be looking for freighters with more than 2bil in the cargo, and sure enough, all the ganks I saw on zkillboard that don't involve plastic wrap are more than 2bil Not sure what the number is like for normal industrials, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was around the 30mil mark (~3 t2 fit catalysts). Depends on the ship used. When I was with code, we could often profit off of a freighter carrying 500 mill if we had a large enough fleet and the freighter was anti-tanked. For solo industrials the number of ships can range from one thrasher to 7 cats. In reality a tanked nereus or racial equivalent should be relatively safe with up to 120m in the cargo hold. An iteron probably shouldn't go above 20m though.
As for the OP. If you can haul it, so can the gankers. I still have an orca and freighter positioned in Uedama for loot scooping.
Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
189
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 10:00:12 -
[50] - Quote
CCP Bartender wrote:Most gankers will have alts in industrials to scoop the loot. For professionals, the criteria is cost of ships they have to suicide to kill you vs value of your loot. Career gankers only attack targets with a loot value greater than 2x the value of the ships they need to sacrifice, because the loot fairy has a 50% chance to drop, so on average they'll do better than break even if they use the >2x metric. I went and looked up some obelisk losses on zkillboard, looks like it takes about 10 talos' to kill one. Each talos seems to be worth about 100mil, so 10 of them is 1bil, so cost effective gankers will be looking for freighters with more than 2bil in the cargo, and sure enough, all the ganks I saw on zkillboard that don't involve plastic wrap are more than 2bil Not sure what the number is like for normal industrials, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was around the 30mil mark (~3 t2 fit catalysts).
This post is so far into the land of incompetence I almost broke my nose with a facepalm.
As long as catalysts are free, ganking is free (some argument can be made that it's 10m in prime gankfit, but the first freighter you gank pays for a month worth of catalysts anyway, so free it is). As long as there is no measure like reducing CONCORD reaction time to grids with multiple offenses, any ganking problem can be solved by bringing one more free catalyst. As long as ganking remains basically free bacon, we will see all those horrible people who can't even mine doing it without the glimpe of HTFU in their mindless shells.
Make eve harsh to everyone, remove free bacon, decrease CONCORD reaction time to multiple offenses on the same grid - would do almost nothing to talos gank, but will make the "+1 catalyst" approach and most the associated problems (free bacon, recycling of catalyst alts, laugh at ease of dodging -10.0 pathetic excuse of consequences) more manageable.
This is needed to introduce skill component to ganking, which it severely lacks at the moment, to the point of being completely fool-proof, as even morons who literally failed at everything else in eve manage 50% success rate.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
189
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 10:21:36 -
[51] - Quote
Jordan Kandou Worley wrote:I always assumed that suicide gankers didn't want items too large, as it would just be a waste of time since they can't scoop it up without a industrial around to move it.
Until I was ganked for capital sized modules, 16,000m3
So.... what's the criteria for suicide ganks?
You see, they don't just do it because they can, they do it because they can't do anything else.
Ganking in eve currently is one of the occupations with "negative entry barrier". With usual entry barrier to other occupations, you need to climb some kind of obstacle, like 4-6 years worth of character training for combat PvP, but there are also occupations to which you fall like it's a trap or something (a good real life example would be HR occupation), just because you weren't able to pass the entry barrier for other ones, or got trapped by ridiculous ease of the said occupation against what it offers.
Thus ganking in eve is done out of fear of admitting you failed in eve. That's indeed the last occupation by the height of requirements to participants, and their last chance to save the fading self-esteem by being able to do at least the easiest thing eve currently offers - and try to fool (themselves first) that this makes them "better" than who they just did that unto.
tl;dr They gank to save themselves from the reality of being worst eve players by picking on better people, literally like a pigeon who ***** on the chessboard, tosses away the pieces, and self-proclaims himself the winner of the match afterwards.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Avaelica Kuershin
60
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 10:38:29 -
[52] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
This post is so far into the land of incompetence I almost broke my nose with a facepalm. . As long as ganking remains basically free bacon, we will see all those horrible people who can't even mine doing it without the glimpe of HTFU in their mindless shells.
.
Indeed your post is best met with a facepalm.
As long as there are people who can't mine without making themselves an easy target then we'll see easy ganks. The same would be true of haulers.
Mining is easy, mining safely (and hauling safely) just requires some thought. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
189
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 10:42:50 -
[53] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
This post is so far into the land of incompetence I almost broke my nose with a facepalm. . As long as ganking remains basically free bacon, we will see all those horrible people who can't even mine doing it without the glimpe of HTFU in their mindless shells.
.
Indeed your post is best met with a facepalm. As long as there are people who can't mine without making themselves an easy target then we'll see easy ganks. The same would be true of haulers. Mining is easy, mining safely (and hauling safely) just requires some thought.
Since there is no way to escape N+1 gank no matter how much ehp, logi, and escort you bring, your argument is completely invalid. The gankers just need to add more free catalysts until they break it.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12964
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 10:50:15 -
[54] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: Since there is no way to escape N+1 gank no matter how much ehp, logi, and escort you bring, your argument is completely invalid.
But since your claim is a lie, and it's easy to escape ganking no matter how many people they bring, their point is valid.
I'm honestly beginning to think you got some Jim Carrey esque curse put on you, where you aren't able to tell the truth.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
189
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 10:55:23 -
[55] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote: Since there is no way to escape N+1 gank no matter how much ehp, logi, and escort you bring, your argument is completely invalid.
But since your claim is a lie, and it's easy to escape ganking no matter how many people they bring, their point is valid. I'm honestly beginning to think you got some Jim Carrey esque curse put on you, where you aren't able to tell the truth. Your curse if called common stupid and it makes you not able to see the truth even when people stuff your face with it.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12964
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 10:59:39 -
[56] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote: Since there is no way to escape N+1 gank no matter how much ehp, logi, and escort you bring, your argument is completely invalid.
But since your claim is a lie, and it's easy to escape ganking no matter how many people they bring, their point is valid. I'm honestly beginning to think you got some Jim Carrey esque curse put on you, where you aren't able to tell the truth. Your curse is called common stupid and it makes you not able to see the truth even when people stuff your face with it.
This is why I gank, scam, and general all round meanie head stuff.
Because it makes people who don't belong in the game mad. Often reducing them to dripping piles of incoherency, like the above.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4544
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 11:00:50 -
[57] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.
The Rules: 3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counter productive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
31. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.
CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, GÇ£outingGÇ¥ of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties. Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
189
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 11:01:25 -
[58] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote: Since there is no way to escape N+1 gank no matter how much ehp, logi, and escort you bring, your argument is completely invalid.
But since your claim is a lie, and it's easy to escape ganking no matter how many people they bring, their point is valid. I'm honestly beginning to think you got some Jim Carrey esque curse put on you, where you aren't able to tell the truth. Your curse is called common stupid and it makes you not able to see the truth even when people stuff your face with it. This is why I gank, scam, and general all round meanie head stuff. Because it makes people who don't belong in the game mad. Often reducing them to dripping piles of incoherency, like the above.
Exactly!
You can only do things that require no brain and unable to comprehend what you're being told. Those are the typical symptoms of common stupid.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12965
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 11:20:06 -
[59] - Quote
You'd think it would stop being funny after a while, but it doesn't. It's the perfect drug, metaphorically speaking.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Freya Sertan
Tyrell Heavy Industries
123
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Posted - 2015.05.11 17:41:04 -
[60] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote: Since there is no way to escape N+1 gank no matter how much ehp, logi, and escort you bring, your argument is completely invalid.
But since your claim is a lie, and it's easy to escape ganking no matter how many people they bring, their point is valid. I'm honestly beginning to think you got some Jim Carrey esque curse put on you, where you aren't able to tell the truth. Your curse is called common stupid and it makes you not able to see the truth even when people stuff your face with it. This is why I gank, scam, and general all round meanie head stuff. Because it makes people who don't belong in the game mad. Often reducing them to dripping piles of incoherency, like the above. Exactly! You can only do things that require no brain and unable to comprehend what you're being told. Those are the typical symptoms of common stupid.
Aww. Where did the ganker touch you? Point it out on this doll. |
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
190
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 01:11:19 -
[61] - Quote
Freya Sertan wrote:Aww. Where did the ganker touch you? Point it out on this doll.
I'd rather know where miner touched you. Nobody succumbs to ganking without a bleeding ego and failing self-esteem, like you know, realizing you caught the common stupid or something.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4547
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 07:29:44 -
[62] - Quote
I removed a reply (and those posts quoting it) to an earlier removed post.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
599
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 08:24:34 -
[63] - Quote
I've had industrials popped just carting around various crap I was too lazy to convert to isk and re-buy at the other end, in a ship significantly more expensive than the loot I ended up dropping.
It's entirely possible that the person ganking you isn't checking your cargo and is just gambling on its value if you're in a ship with a reasonably fast warp-time and a long manifest that they need to pin down quickly. |
Shuckstar
Taking Inc Swine Aviation Labs
298
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 08:48:40 -
[64] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Fun, tears and profit. The order might be wrong...
This but in a different order for me :P
CCP Greyscale wrote:"OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)"
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
347
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 09:54:14 -
[65] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Jordan Kandou Worley wrote:I always assumed that suicide gankers didn't want items too large, as it would just be a waste of time since they can't scoop it up without a industrial around to move it.
Until I was ganked for capital sized modules, 16,000m3
So.... what's the criteria for suicide ganks? You see, they don't just do it because they can, they do it because they can't do anything else. Ganking in eve currently is one of the occupations with "negative entry barrier". With usual entry barrier to other occupations, you need to climb some kind of obstacle, like 4-6 years worth of character training for combat PvP, but there are also occupations to which you fall like it's a trap or something (a good real life example would be HR occupation), just because you weren't able to pass the entry barrier for other ones, or got trapped by ridiculous ease of the said occupation against what it offers. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Please don't equate gankers with HR "professionals." They are scum but gankers have feelings too! |
Baron Spank
Lords of Fail
48
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 11:38:56 -
[66] - Quote
If you want to be safe. Just double wrap your stuff.
Create a courier contract to one of your alt then, recontract the contract to your hauler.
Ganking cost ISK to the gankers. They generally don't take the risk if they can't see what they could get.
With this technique there is a big chance that everything explodes.
Ganking is generally a business, so it's rare that they kill you if they scan plastic wrap, but you are not 100% safe, some can try anyway just to see what is inside. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
311
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 11:54:04 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Bartender wrote:
Not sure what the number is like for normal industrials, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was around the 30mil mark (~3 t2 fit catalysts).
With a low number of stacks, you will be safe with about a 100 mill est in cargo.
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24074
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 12:25:57 -
[68] - Quote
Freckled redheads, tbh.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
191
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 12:59:24 -
[69] - Quote
Baron Spank wrote:If you want to be safe. Just double wrap your stuff.
Create a courier contract to one of your alt then, recontract the contract to your hauler.
Ganking cost ISK to the gankers. They generally don't take the risk if they can't see what they could get.
With this technique there is a big chance that everything explodes.
Ganking is generally a business, so it's rare that they kill you if they scan plastic wrap, but you are not 100% safe, some can try anyway just to see what is inside. If you want to be safe, just don't haul.
Double wrapping will be ganked. Empty industrial will be ganked. Marauders will be ganked. Because it's free.
Ganking does not cost ISK to the gankers as long as catalyst remains free. The first freighter ganked with laughably little initial investment will pay a month worth of free catalysts. You can gank anything by risking nothing by just being in a free catalyst.
With this technique there is indeed a better chance that everything explodes, including your ship.
Ganking is one of the literally prehistoric ways to fix a painfully shrunken self-esteem - picking on decent people and claiming you're "better" because you were enough of a jerk to peck them and weren't pecked back (apparently by being too filthy to be pecked, but you'd rather die than admit it).
Once again, I point out that there are 2 problems with ganking - it's too free and it's too easy. I will have nothing against it if it gets a cost and some skill requirement. The easiest way to do this as I see it is a simple measure - reduce CONCORD reaction time to multiple offenses on the same grid. Won't affect alpha ganks, will not do much to talos gank due to its limited numbers, but will remove the free N+1 catalyst gank, and bring some actual skill requirements to otherwise skill-free "occupation".
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Paranoid Loyd
5087
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 13:17:06 -
[70] - Quote
Lost Greybeard wrote:I've had industrials popped just carting around various crap I was too lazy to convert to isk and re-buy at the other end, in a ship significantly more expensive than the loot I ended up dropping.
It's entirely possible that the person ganking you isn't checking your cargo and is just gambling on its value if you're in a ship with a reasonably fast warp-time and a long manifest that they need to pin down quickly. I find your comments comical considering your most recent loss.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24074
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 13:20:52 -
[71] - Quote
Tbh this topic is silly considering the miniscule amount of ganking that happens compared to literally every thing else combat related.
The TLDR is that those who talk against it take it personally.
Thanks Indah for letting us know that suicide ganking isn't an issue at all.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
365
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 14:51:28 -
[72] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Lost Greybeard wrote:I've had industrials popped just carting around various crap I was too lazy to convert to isk and re-buy at the other end, in a ship significantly more expensive than the loot I ended up dropping.
It's entirely possible that the person ganking you isn't checking your cargo and is just gambling on its value if you're in a ship with a reasonably fast warp-time and a long manifest that they need to pin down quickly. I find your comments comical considering your most recent loss.
That was a very nice 3166.6% return on investment.
Railguns can't melt Medium Shield Extenders
Dumping low-value, high-volume Mexallon & Pyerite in the same haul with high-value, low-volume Skillbooks and modules is Gÿ»
You got rekt on that Mammoth however, son. The valuations came from Genos 3/4. =ƒÉë
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Paranoid Loyd
5090
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 15:09:21 -
[73] - Quote
GankYou wrote:You got rekt on that Mammoth however, son. The valuations came from Genos 3/4. =ƒÉë Hardly classify that as rekt, made 100% on the Geno and the Yacht BPC dropped. The digital rocket booster BPC will become valuable when someone is foolish enough to meander by with the components to build it.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24114
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 15:15:40 -
[74] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:GankYou wrote:You got rekt on that Mammoth however, son. The valuations came from Genos 3/4. =ƒÉë Hardly classify that as rekt, made 100% on the Geno and the Yacht BPC dropped. The digital rocket booster BPC will become valuable when someone is foolish enough to meander by with the components to build it. I have no idea how you do this. It's nerve wreckingly boring and every GCC makes me want to hit my screen.
The GCC especially is psychoterror.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Paranoid Loyd
5090
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 15:28:06 -
[75] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote: I have no idea how you do this. It's nerve wreckingly boring and every GCC makes me want to hit my screen.
The GCC especially is psychoterror.
Boredom mitigation: Chat channels, answer mails, organize loot, sell loot, build more gank ships, 4th account (been doing some low sec hunting, learning about invention and fine tuning manufacturing strategies), some sort of strategy game running in the background, RL work.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24122
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 15:33:24 -
[76] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Solecist Project wrote: I have no idea how you do this. It's nerve wreckingly boring and every GCC makes me want to hit my screen.
The GCC especially is psychoterror.
Boredom mitigation: Chat channels, answer mails, organize loot, sell loot, build more gank ships, 4th account, some sort of strategy game running in the background, RL work. Tried that. Then I stop scanning.
I tried with the outlaw char in space. Bouncing and scanning.
While that really improved the fun of it, it was nearly impossible to catch anything.
I even switched location now, as you might have noticed ... ... but it only made it worse, tbh.
Now some local is annoying me with a private killright.
Killing things for ISK ... no wonder I never cared. -.-
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
369
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 16:54:25 -
[77] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:GankYou wrote:You got rekt on that Mammoth however, son. The valuations came from Genos 3/4. =ƒÉë Hardly classify that as rekt, made 100% on the Geno and the Yacht BPC dropped. The digital rocket booster BPC will become valuable when someone is foolish enough to meander by with the components to build it.
I'll take the Yacht BPC off your hands for 55 miljoon precious ISKs.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24152
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 17:19:11 -
[78] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:GankYou wrote:You got rekt on that Mammoth however, son. The valuations came from Genos 3/4. =ƒÉë Hardly classify that as rekt, made 100% on the Geno and the Yacht BPC dropped. The digital rocket booster BPC will become valuable when someone is foolish enough to meander by with the components to build it. I'll take the Yacht BPC off your hands for 55 miljoon precious ISKs. Will you pass me today in a shuttle again? ^_^
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
|
Nyalnara
AdAstra. Beach Club
4
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 17:42:11 -
[79] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Once again, I point out that there are 2 problems with ganking - it's too free and it's too easy. I will have nothing against it if it gets a cost and some skill requirement. The easiest way to do this as I see it is a simple measure - reduce CONCORD reaction time to multiple offenses on the same grid. Won't affect alpha ganks, will not do much to talos gank due to its limited numbers, but will remove the free N+1 catalyst gank, and bring some actual skill requirements to otherwise skill-free "occupation".
Then, N+1 arty trasher became the new meta.
French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
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Paranoid Loyd
5091
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 18:04:16 -
[80] - Quote
GankYou wrote:I'll take the Yacht BPC off your hands for 55 miljoon precious ISKs. Nope.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
|
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 18:29:48 -
[81] - Quote
CCP Bartender wrote:Most gankers will have alts in industrials to scoop the loot. For professionals, the criteria is cost of ships they have to suicide to kill you vs value of your loot. Career gankers only attack targets with a loot value greater than 2x the value of the ships they need to sacrifice, because the loot fairy has a 50% chance to drop, so on average they'll do better than break even if they use the >2x metric. I went and looked up some obelisk losses on zkillboard, looks like it takes about 10 talos' to kill one. Each talos seems to be worth about 100mil, so 10 of them is 1bil, so cost effective gankers will be looking for freighters with more than 2bil in the cargo, and sure enough, all the ganks I saw on zkillboard that don't involve plastic wrap are more than 2bil Not sure what the number is like for normal industrials, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was around the 30mil mark (~3 t2 fit catalysts). My gank talos cost me about 80m fully fitted and I don't have the industrial power behind me that the organized groups like code do.
Gankers look for tears, isk, a boredom breaker and more. THe reasons and motivations can vary as much as those doing the ganking. |
Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
337
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 19:46:46 -
[82] - Quote
Jordan Kandou Worley wrote:So.... what's the criteria for suicide ganks?
"Two tears in a m'fuckin' bucket....**** it."
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
191
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 21:29:09 -
[83] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Once again, I point out that there are 2 problems with ganking - it's too free and it's too easy. I will have nothing against it if it gets a cost and some skill requirement. The easiest way to do this as I see it is a simple measure - reduce CONCORD reaction time to multiple offenses on the same grid. Won't affect alpha ganks, will not do much to talos gank due to its limited numbers, but will remove the free N+1 catalyst gank, and bring some actual skill requirements to otherwise skill-free "occupation". Then, N+1 arty trasher became the new meta.
Still a step in the right direction as it sufficiently (about 35-40% if I didn't fail me mathz) increases the N requirement for that case. Then we can think of measures like decreasing navy reaction time to multiple negative sec pilots on grid.
The criteria of a suicide gank is failing in something trivial recently and getting a bleeder on the ego, which needs fixing by picking on random people, for the ganker to assure himself he isn't the lowest eve player he actually is (because hey, he got a kill, who cares if it's his own 1 month old alt in failfit Nereus, he got a kill - means he just became "better", and becoming "better" is all that matters.)
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23758
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 21:38:29 -
[84] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Nyalnara wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Once again, I point out that there are 2 problems with ganking - it's too free and it's too easy. I will have nothing against it if it gets a cost and some skill requirement. The easiest way to do this as I see it is a simple measure - reduce CONCORD reaction time to multiple offenses on the same grid. Won't affect alpha ganks, will not do much to talos gank due to its limited numbers, but will remove the free N+1 catalyst gank, and bring some actual skill requirements to otherwise skill-free "occupation". Then, N+1 arty trasher became the new meta. Still a step in the right direction as it sufficiently (about 35-40% if I didn't fail me mathz) increases the N requirement for that case. Then we can think of measures like decreasing navy reaction time to multiple negative sec pilots on grid. The criteria of a suicide gank is failing in something trivial recently and getting a bleeder on the ego, which needs fixing by picking on random people, for the ganker to assure himself he isn't the lowest eve player he actually is (because hey, he got a kill, who cares if it's his own 1 month old alt in failfit Nereus, he got a kill - means he just became "better", and becoming "better" is all that matters.) More like the start of a process where Thrashers become the favoured tool for ganking and people like you call for them to be nerfed too, adinfinitum.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
337
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 21:48:14 -
[85] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Nyalnara wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Once again, I point out that there are 2 problems with ganking - it's too free and it's too easy. I will have nothing against it if it gets a cost and some skill requirement. The easiest way to do this as I see it is a simple measure - reduce CONCORD reaction time to multiple offenses on the same grid. Won't affect alpha ganks, will not do much to talos gank due to its limited numbers, but will remove the free N+1 catalyst gank, and bring some actual skill requirements to otherwise skill-free "occupation". Then, N+1 arty trasher became the new meta. Still a step in the right direction as it sufficiently (about 35-40% if I didn't fail me mathz) increases the N requirement for that case. Then we can think of measures like decreasing navy reaction time to multiple negative sec pilots on grid. The criteria of a suicide gank is failing in something trivial recently and getting a bleeder on the ego, which needs fixing by picking on random people, for the ganker to assure himself he isn't the lowest eve player he actually is (because hey, he got a kill, who cares if it's his own 1 month old alt in failfit Nereus, he got a kill - means he just became "better", and becoming "better" is all that matters.)
You really don't get EvE.
I for one has never used an alt, but when I do, I wear no pants. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
192
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 22:16:11 -
[86] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Nyalnara wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Once again, I point out that there are 2 problems with ganking - it's too free and it's too easy. I will have nothing against it if it gets a cost and some skill requirement. The easiest way to do this as I see it is a simple measure - reduce CONCORD reaction time to multiple offenses on the same grid. Won't affect alpha ganks, will not do much to talos gank due to its limited numbers, but will remove the free N+1 catalyst gank, and bring some actual skill requirements to otherwise skill-free "occupation". Then, N+1 arty trasher became the new meta. Still a step in the right direction as it sufficiently (about 35-40% if I didn't fail me mathz) increases the N requirement for that case. Then we can think of measures like decreasing navy reaction time to multiple negative sec pilots on grid. The criteria of a suicide gank is failing in something trivial recently and getting a bleeder on the ego, which needs fixing by picking on random people, for the ganker to assure himself he isn't the lowest eve player he actually is (because hey, he got a kill, who cares if it's his own 1 month old alt in failfit Nereus, he got a kill - means he just became "better", and becoming "better" is all that matters.) More like the start of a process where Thrashers become the favoured tool for ganking and people like you call for them to be nerfed too, adinfinitum. I called ganking to be nerfed, not " thrashers too" or catalysts. It needs a nerf because it's too free and too easy - eve must be eve to everyone and atm there is an exception, which all the horrible people gladly jumped.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
337
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 01:34:28 -
[87] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Nyalnara wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Once again, I point out that there are 2 problems with ganking - it's too free and it's too easy. I will have nothing against it if it gets a cost and some skill requirement. The easiest way to do this as I see it is a simple measure - reduce CONCORD reaction time to multiple offenses on the same grid. Won't affect alpha ganks, will not do much to talos gank due to its limited numbers, but will remove the free N+1 catalyst gank, and bring some actual skill requirements to otherwise skill-free "occupation". Then, N+1 arty trasher became the new meta. Still a step in the right direction as it sufficiently (about 35-40% if I didn't fail me mathz) increases the N requirement for that case. Then we can think of measures like decreasing navy reaction time to multiple negative sec pilots on grid. The criteria of a suicide gank is failing in something trivial recently and getting a bleeder on the ego, which needs fixing by picking on random people, for the ganker to assure himself he isn't the lowest eve player he actually is (because hey, he got a kill, who cares if it's his own 1 month old alt in failfit Nereus, he got a kill - means he just became "better", and becoming "better" is all that matters.) More like the start of a process where Thrashers become the favoured tool for ganking and people like you call for them to be nerfed too, adinfinitum. I called ganking to be nerfed, not " thrashers too" or catalysts. It needs a nerf because it's too free and too easy - eve must be eve to everyone and atm there is an exception, which all the horrible people gladly jumped. So is making isk, so let's nerf your game too.
fair?
Sounds good, let's do this. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
193
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 03:15:55 -
[88] - Quote
Baaldor wrote:So is making isk, so let's nerf your game too.
fair?
Sounds good, let's do this.
While I said it with a meaning that wanking game needs to be balanced with other games in terms of effort (currently minimal), risk (currently none), and reward (currently infinite), rather than blindly nerfed, I will not go into this discussion with an obvious troll.
Ok, let's nerf my game too. I'll still be crafty and wealthy in comparison, but the very second we introduce skill component to ganking, CODE will failcascade, and future gankers would be worthy of respect at least. So fine, nerf ganking together with my game, whatever you presume it is.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners. Strange Phenomenon
35
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 04:14:25 -
[89] - Quote
Problem with ganking is the same it has always been: no reward for someone to get revenge. A game that tries so hard to appeal to the emotions and, feelings of players and reject the sweet nectar that is revenge, is just stupidity. It is surprising EVE has made it this far. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1039
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 05:47:23 -
[90] - Quote
Only one last nerfGäó and carebears will be free
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23759
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 07:40:20 -
[91] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:I called ganking to be nerfed, not " thrashers too" or catalysts. Why does it need to be nerfed? The odds of getting ganked are incredibly low if you are paying attention and not doing anything silly.
Quote:It needs a nerf because it's too free and too easy - eve must be eve to everyone and atm there is an exception, which all the horrible people gladly jumped. I'd love to see you explain how ganking is so free and easy when the loot fairy is a vicious female dog and the task generally requires a coordinated effort by multiple players to succeed.
Ganking isn't a CCP problem; the problem is that at least 75% of the gankers victims can't be arsed to make an effort to avoid them.
If you want to hurt gankers you should educate other players on how to avoid them, not rely on CCP to legislate them out of existence.
As an aside Eve history shows that gankers will adapt to any change in the game mechanics quite rapidly and endeavour to turn those changes against the people who asked for them; be careful what you wish for.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24241
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 07:47:46 -
[92] - Quote
lol this thread is still going.
My open invitation is out there!
Accept it and join in. ^_^
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
193
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:22:05 -
[93] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Why does it need to be nerfed? The odds of getting ganked are incredibly low if you are paying attention and not doing anything silly. It needs to be nerfed because it's too free and too easy compared to anything else in eve. The odds of surviving a gank is infinitely lower than getting ganked. So currently the whole hisec is basically at ganker's whim, as the only thing that protects from a gank is stupidity, lazyness and badness of a ganker, there are no measures one can take to protect himself if he has to pass a ganker den, and ganker dens became ganker dens exactly because there is no way around them. Honestly, this discussion has been on so many times that I can already tell what comes next - "if my lazyness if your defense, adapt and weaponize my lazyness" request from gankers. And calling me bad for not doing it ofc. Once again, it needs to be nerfed because it's too free and too easy compared to anything else in eve.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I'd love to see you explain how ganking is so free and easy when the loot fairy is a vicious female dog and the task generally requires a coordinated effort by multiple players to succeed.
Loot fairy will give you 50% in the long run, so complaining about it is like saying "the laws of the universe had sent math and logic for me to be terrible at".
Not to mention that the profitability of ganking is so stupidly high (because it's free and you can pick any reward you want).
"Coordinated" "effort"... really? The only coordination you need is assembling together in one system and not goofing off at F1. I bet my booty you have a client-server piece of software that synchronizes F1 pressing among the crowd, because that's what I'd do if I were to lead a gank - so it would NEVER fail, because really, even my dog can learn a trick of pressing F1 by command.
Once again, the ganking is free because the catalyst is free. The ganking is easy because you need almost no skills (10 hour heroes can do it) and no sentience (ok, one sentience per gank fleet - the rest can be dogs trained to F1 on command, and it will succeed) to do it.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Ganking isn't a CCP problem; the problem is that at least 75% of the gankers victims can't be arsed to make an effort to avoid them. Since apparently it hasn't been made clear enough to people who couldn't be arsed to check the new eden map, there is no way to avoid Uedama-Niarja-Madirmilire trio, and there is no way avoid the gank once you're in them. If you happen to know how "effort" can create new stargates, please share the thought, otherwise I have to ask you to shut up on account of having no idea of what you're talking about.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:If you want to hurt gankers you should educate other players on how to avoid them, not rely on CCP to legislate them out of existence. "If you want to hurt bears, you should educate people to never get out of their homes, not rely on government to legalize bear population control." /sacrasm My proposed measure is nowhere near enough to legislate something out of existence - it only hurts the dumbest variety of ganking, like removing the free awox only hurt the dumbest variety of awoxing.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:As an aside Eve history shows that gankers will adapt to any change in the game mechanics quite rapidly and endeavour to turn those changes against the people who asked for them; be careful what you wish for. Getting buff after buff and enjoying the harshless zero-risk free-isk variety of eve is hardly adapting. Just show them a real nerf instead of yet another hidden buff, and look at your reaction - scared and full damage control defensive, making treats, hinting the current bottom feeders of eve skill-wise - gankers - are capable of adaption, etc... I were a miner before Odyssey, so I know quite well that CCP in fact can "legislate out of existence" a whole profession just on a whim. Yet I do not ask for this - what I ask for is, like the free awox removal, the removal of free ganking. The removal of free awox certainly haven't removed awox itself and we certainly haven't drowned in "bad corps" every bad awoxer and his dog cried about (well, there are notable exceptions, but not like they haven't existed before or bloomed because of this change - Karma fleet is one of them). So, once again, I'm not asking to "remove ganking", I'm asking to "remove FREE ganking", just like free awox has been removed without removing the real awox. This is eve, nothing should be free, and nothing should be free of risk. Since ganking is done with a free ship, and the worst thing you risk is losing a free ship, I say this way of ganking needs to be removed, and I proposed a way to do it that removes it with little to no influence on other, more justifiable ways to gank. So can we stop putting words in my mouth, trying to claim ganking is not free, trying to claim the gank is avoidable, and other nonsensual claims ganking threads are full of, and just admit the truth already?
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Kashadin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:28:06 -
[94] - Quote
Basil, where are you getting these free, fully fit, catalyst? I would like to know the name of your gene.
Every ISK making activity, which ganking is only sorta, tends to trend upwards even if the payout is always on the low side. |
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
2932
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:37:16 -
[95] - Quote
Kashadin wrote:Basil, where are you getting these free, fully fit, catalyst? I would like to know the name of your gene.
Every ISK making activity, which ganking is only sorta, tends to trend upwards even if the payout is always on the low side. He can have them from me.
I will happily give him one and he can show that he is willing to gank people for a good cause.
As there aren't any negative consequences ... ... and ganking is easy and free anyway ... ... there isn't actually ANY reason not to join in.
Abolish Rookiecorps
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
Him after realising rigs don't need any skills: Chris Lazeare > That changes everything
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
193
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:47:06 -
[96] - Quote
Kashadin wrote:Basil, where are you getting these free, fully fit, catalyst? I would like to know the name of your gene.
Every ISK making activity, which ganking is only sorta, tends to trend upwards even if the payout is always on the low side. You get 3 hulls and 1 full fit by completing career agents. Last time I checked, only needs 2 of them. Thus its cost can be lower than minerals it takes, and since it's easy to produce T1 destroyers, I will not be surprised if you can get any number of catalysts rolled out simply recycling the loot you get from ganking (yes I know it's not practical, but the ease, oh, the ease...). Full meta fit cost is under 100k ISK. With T2 fit it's still cheap, and no real need to fit it other than not having enough trained dogs to F1 by command in N+1 fleet.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
193
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:54:19 -
[97] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:He can have them from me.
I will happily give him one and he can show that he is willing to gank people for a good cause. The only cause people have for ganking is failing at everything else in eve and fixing bleeding self-esteem by claiming that they "got better" by freeshipF1monkeying yet another industrial.
Eve Solecist wrote:As there aren't any negative consequences ... ... and ganking is easy and free anyway ... ... there isn't actually ANY reason not to join in. No negative consequences that can't be managed by going afk in a fleetwarped bouncefleet. Ganking isn't exactly easy - it's too easy. Ganking isn't exactly free - it's just too free.
Reason not to join is simple - not being a failure at eve. Unless you are, you have no reason to gank anyone, ever.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24246
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:57:55 -
[98] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Eve Solecist wrote:He can have them from me.
I will happily give him one and he can show that he is willing to gank people for a good cause. The only cause people have for ganking is failing at everything else in eve and fixing bleeding self-esteem by claiming that they "got better" by freeshipF1monkeying yet another industrial. Eve Solecist wrote:As there aren't any negative consequences ... ... and ganking is easy and free anyway ... ... there isn't actually ANY reason not to join in. No negative consequences that can't be managed by going afk in a fleetwarped bouncefleet. Ganking isn't exactly easy - it's too easy. Ganking isn't exactly free - it's just too free. Reason not to join is simple - not being a failure at eve. Unless you are, you have no reason to gank anyone, ever.
There is so much personal hate in your words, it's nuts. But the worst part is how you keep projecting your own superiority issues onto literally everyone else who doesn't agree with you.
So it's a failure to gather money by ganking people, to collect more money for PLEX4GOOD ?
Did you actually donate anything? (:
I really wonder if you would dare talking like that into my face ! :D
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23759
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 09:26:07 -
[99] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:It needs to be nerfed because it's too free and too easy compared to anything else in eve. The odds of surviving a gank is infinitely lower than getting ganked. So currently the whole hisec is basically at ganker's whim, as the only thing that protects from a gank is stupidity, lazyness and badness of a ganker, there are no measures one can take to protect himself if he has to pass a ganker den, and ganker dens became ganker dens exactly because there is no way around them.
Honestly, this discussion has been on so many times that I can already tell what comes next - "if my lazyness if your defense, adapt and weaponize my lazyness" request from gankers. And calling me bad for not doing it ofc. Once again, it needs to be nerfed because it's too free and too easy compared to anything else in eve. That's complete and utter bollocks, up until very recently I was based 2 jumps from Uedama, I can honestly say that I've hauled stuff through that system hundreds of times and suffered a total of zero losses.
The chances of getting ganked in a choke-point decrease massively if you're not afking a loot pinata with no tank through it.
As for laziness, the gankers have adapted and weaponised the laziness of their targets; are you saying that you're too lazy to do the same?
Quote:Loot fairy will give you 50% in the long run, so complaining about it is like saying "the laws of the universe had sent math and logic for me to be terrible at".
Not to mention that the profitability of ganking is so stupidly high (because it's free and you can pick any reward you want). The loot fairy does indeed have a 50% drop rate, that doesn't mean 50% of the isk value of that potential loot, as I said she's a vicious female dog and she tries to keep the shinies and the PLEX to herself.
Quote:"Coordinated" "effort"... really? The only coordination you need is assembling together in one system and not goofing off at F1. I bet my booty you have a client-server piece of software that synchronizes F1 pressing among the crowd, because that's what I'd do if I were to lead a gank - so it would NEVER fail, because really, even my dog can learn a trick of pressing F1 by command.
Once again, the ganking is free because the catalyst is free. The ganking is easy because you need almost no skills (10 hour heroes can do it) and no sentience (ok, one sentience per gank fleet - the rest can be dogs trained to F1 on command, and it will succeed) to do it. A Catalyst is not free, just because someone else may indirectly end up paying for it doesn't make it so. A gank has as much coordination as any other form of gang PvP, the victim sees the 20 second finale to that coordination, they don't see the stuff that happens before that.
With reference to client-server software that allows them to sync F1, it's called TS and comes under the term coordination. It's in common use throughout Eve and the same functionality is built into the client.
Quote:Since apparently it hasn't been made clear enough to people who couldn't be arsed to check the new eden map, there is no way to avoid Uedama-Niarja-Madirmilire trio, and there is no way avoid the gank once you're in them. If you happen to know how "effort" can create new stargates, please share the thought, otherwise I have to ask you to shut up on account of having no idea of what you're talking about. There's ways around them, both in space via lowsec/JF's etc, and by using couriers to offload the risk with a guaranteed return regardless of whether or not your goods get to their destination.
Regarding shutting up on account of not knowing what you're talking about, you should follow your own advice, your ignorance is showing.
Continued below.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24246
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 09:31:42 -
[100] - Quote
Why are you doing this? You know perfectly well that there's no point to it.
Why do you deliberately make it worse for him and everyone else ? Let alone yourself!
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23759
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 09:37:12 -
[101] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:"If you want to hurt bears, you should educate people to never get out of their homes, not rely on government to legalize bear population control." /sacrasm That's not sarcasm, it's idiocy. If you want to hurt bears you trap and shoot them.
Sound familiar?
Quote:My proposed measure is nowhere near enough to legislate something out of existence - it only hurts the dumbest variety of ganking, like removing the free awox only hurt the dumbest variety of awoxing. Speaking of dumb...
Quote:Getting buff after buff and enjoying the harshless zero-risk free-isk variety of eve is hardly adapting. Just show them a real nerf instead of yet another hidden buff, and look at your reaction - scared and full damage control defensive, making treats, hinting the current bottom feeders of eve skill-wise - gankers - are capable of adaption, etc... Please name the buffs and allow people with experience to riposte with why they're not the buffs you think they are.
Gankers are definitely capable of adaption, the current meta of multiple high DPS platforms and pilots is an adaptation to the demise of insurance payouts on Concordokkened ships.
Quote:I were a miner before Odyssey, so I know quite well that CCP in fact can "legislate out of existence" a whole profession just on a whim. Yet I do not ask for this - what I ask for is, like the free awox removal, the removal of free ganking. The removal of free awox certainly haven't removed awox itself and we certainly haven't drowned in "bad corps" every bad awoxer and his dog cried about (well, there are notable exceptions, but not like they haven't existed before or bloomed because of this change - Karma fleet is one of them). So, once again, I'm not asking to "remove ganking", I'm asking to "remove FREE ganking", just like free awox has been removed without removing the real awox. This is eve, nothing should be free, and nothing should be free of risk. Since ganking is done with a free ship, and the worst thing you risk is losing a free ship, I say this way of ganking needs to be removed, and I proposed a way to do it that removes it with little to no influence on other, more justifiable ways to gank. So can we stop putting words in my mouth, trying to claim ganking is not free, trying to claim the gank is avoidable, and other nonsensual claims ganking threads are full of, and just admit the truth already? Ganking is not free, ganking ships are not free and ganks CAN be avoided; non consensual PvP is a fact, and you consent to it by undocking.
You're wrong, and woefully ignorant. You make bears like me look bad.
@Sol, because people might read his tripe and consider it based on reality.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
2932
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 09:47:12 -
[102] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:@Sol, because people might read his tripe and consider it based on reality. And here I can say, with 100% certainty ... No.
This is never going to happen. It's completely nonsensical to assume that and only shows no one ever thought this actually through.
There is NO chance in hell anyone will ever come across this and have his mind changed about what's going on.
There is NO chance in hell that anyone with prejudice will have his mind changed either.
You are, literally, wasting your time for Basil himself.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Google is FULL of this **** already. Think about that just for a second ! Think about it ! Do you have ANY sign or hint that google was ever a factor? No!
People who google and come to this will read one post, maybe a second. Maybe they read a counter-post ... but that's it.
The absolute vast majority is going to close the window early ... ... because they realise just as I do that what you people are doing is nuts.
Nonsense. Silly. Irrational. Useless.
What you are doing is legitimising him. Nothing more. Nothing less.
You are being used. Nothing less.
If you really believed your own google-argument ... ... then do what actually helps.
Link to an appropriately worded, short and to the point response. Links help google, thus links help people who google.
This ... what you do here ... is outright stupid and ONLY serves YOU and the poster who manipulates you.
Get that into your head already !
There is NO need to rehash everything. Everything. All the time. Every day.
1.) Point to where it's written down already and thus 2.) stop legitimising the bullshit these sociopaths come up with !
And further does it help stopping these people from spreading hate. You want a response? There is one!
"It's all been discussed already. Just look at this thread. [link] No need for more hate. We know that it's not about the mechanics anyway, it's about the people who do it."
GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD ! YOU ARE ALL GUILTY OF MAKING A NON-ISSUE WORSE THAN IT IS !
Abolish Rookiecorps
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
Him after realising rigs don't need any skills: Chris Lazeare > That changes everything
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23760
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 09:49:04 -
[103] - Quote
^^Fair enough, I've said my piece. I'm done and my hide posts list has a +1
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
2932
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Posted - 2015.05.13 09:52:24 -
[104] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:^^Fair enough, I've said my piece. I'm done and my hide posts list has a +1 Good.
If we had less wannabe meta warriors things could progress much more smoothly, but instead every shithead who believes he needs to "educate", while actually only serving himself, just keep working for those they "pretend" to oppose.
Also ... consider my other thread. :)
Abolish Rookiecorps
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
Him after realising rigs don't need any skills: Chris Lazeare > That changes everything
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25139
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 10:12:52 -
[105] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:It needs to be nerfed because it's too free and too easy compared to anything else in eve. Setting aside that GÇ£too freeGÇ¥ doesn't make an sense, If this was even remotely true, ganking would be vastly more commonplace than it is right now. Ganking has one of the worst ROI for the most effort of any money-making scheme in the game. The coordination, planning, and straight-up luck required to make a good profit is completely off the charts compared to more common-place methods. Going by your standard, missions, mining, ratting, incursions, industry, and almost everything related to the the market needs to be nerfed into oblivion. Since they are all ridiculously much more common events, I can only assume that you also place them far higher on the list of priorities of things that need be nerfed, yes?
Quote:The odds of surviving a gank is infinitely lower than getting ganked. No. The odds of surviving a gank are roughly 100%-+¦, as proven beyond any question by the number of ships flying through space at any given time and the utterly minute number of profitable ganks that come out of all those flights. The fundamental error in your thinking is that you incorrectly believe that the gank starts at the press of F1. It doesn't. It starts a couple of minutes before you click GÇ£undockGÇ¥.
If what you said was true, it should not have been possible for me to not die once to a gank in more than 7 years, nor to have survived three actual attacks (in one case, without even having the time to turn on my tank).
Gankers are entirely at the mercy of their GÇ£victims.GÇ¥ If the victims choses not to be a victim, they won't be, and there's nothing the ganker can do to change that. He can't conjure up a different cargo in the holds; he can't magically remove fitted mods; he can't reach in and alter the routing in the other player's client; he can't remote-control the ship and its modules. All he can do is hope that the other player does something fundamentally stupid.
Quote:Not to mention that the profitability of ganking is so stupidly high (because it's free and you can pick any reward you want). Ah, so you're going for the GÇ£if you're going to lie, lie bigGÇ¥ route. What you say is inherently false because the game simply does not allow for what you just described. It cannot possibly be free, and there is absolutely no way for the ganker to pick their reward. If you believe either of those, you are so ignorant of everything related to the topic that you disqualify yourself from commenting on it.
Quote:Since apparently it hasn't been made clear enough to people who couldn't be arsed to check the new eden map, there is no way to avoid Uedama-Niarja-Madirmilire trio, and there is no way avoid the gank once you're in them. How do you explain the indisputable fact that the vast majority of people manage to do exactly that, then?
Quote:So, once again, I'm not asking to "remove ganking", I'm asking to "remove FREE ganking" Good news: it was removed in late 2011.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24246
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 10:29:20 -
[106] - Quote
While you freaks discuss nonsense and ultimately only ruin the game ... ... I have much more pressing matters to deal with.
Figuring out which type of coffee tastes best to my piece of cake. That's not that easy and a wrong choice can ruin a day easily.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
193
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Posted - 2015.05.13 10:30:39 -
[107] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:That's complete and utter bollocks, up until very recently I was based 2 jumps from Uedama, I can honestly say that I've hauled stuff through that system hundreds of times and suffered a total of zero losses.
The chances of getting ganked in a choke-point decrease massively if you're not afking a loot pinata with no tank through it.
As for laziness, the gankers have adapted and weaponised the laziness of their targets; are you saying that you're too lazy to do the same? So, because gankers were too lazy to gank you, the problem of free riskless gank does not exist and is utter bollocks? I afraid you just ate some bollocks.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The loot fairy does indeed have a 50% drop rate, that doesn't mean 50% of the isk value of the potential loot, as I said she's a vicious female dog and she tries to keep the shinies and the PLEX to herself. No, it means exactly that. It has the same chance of giving you everything as it does giving you nothing. In the long run, you will get the average, so complaining about it just characterizes you as a very poor fit for a math class.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:A Catalyst is not free, just because someone else may indirectly end up paying for it doesn't make it so. A gank has as much coordination as any other form of gang PvP, the victim sees the 20 second finale to that coordination, they don't see the stuff that happens before that. So you just pick on words by claiming anything that costs 0.01 ISK in any way is not free. At the same time, you perfectly realize what I were trying to say, but sill try to pick on the wording with obvious sense. We can use other words. "given at no cost'. "dirt-cheap". "almost free". "available in extreme quantities at symbolic price".
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:There's ways around them, both in space via lowsec/JF's etc, and by using couriers to offload the risk with a guaranteed return regardless of whether or not your goods get to their destination. Please, not this bollocks again, we all know industrial in lowsec is certain death (well maybe you don't, but killboards do). We all know that ganking is done not for profit, but for "getting better" and "winning eve" by F1-monkeying industrials. We all know that no amount of tank would save you from 30 catalysts piloted by trained dogs. Not even marauders survive it. We all know that there is no way to make ends meet with JF's unless you are Black frog with 9-figure tolls for hauling in them. So, as usual, you brought the usual ganktardy arguments without regard for how much times they were called stupid for being stupid.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Regarding shutting up on account of not knowing what you're talking about, you should follow your own advice, your ignorance is showing.
Continued below. I concede. I am incapable of blowing nearly as much ignorance as you spew into this post. Please shut up, apparently you are going to repeat the rest of stupid I heard and crushed 1000 times over.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24246
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 10:36:45 -
[108] - Quote
lol wasting your time for no gain at all. ^_^
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15881
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 10:51:38 -
[109] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: I concede. I am incapable of blowing nearly as much ignorance as you spew into this post. Please shut up, apparently you are going to repeat the rest of stupid I heard and crushed 1000 times over.
You crushed nothing. Everything you spout is the same old rehashed myths and lies spouted by people who have no idea how ganking works.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
193
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 10:55:08 -
[110] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Setting aside that GÇ£too freeGÇ¥ doesn't make an sense, If this was even remotely true, ganking would be vastly more commonplace than it is right now. Ganking has one of the worst ROI for the most effort of any money-making scheme in the game. The coordination, planning, and straight-up luck required to make a good profit is completely off the charts compared to more common-place methods. Going by your standard, missions, mining, ratting, incursions, industry, and almost everything related to the the market needs to be nerfed into oblivion. Since they are all ridiculously much more common events, I can only assume that you also place them far higher on the list of priorities of things that need be nerfed, yes? Ganking is extremely commonplace and I will not be surprised if by 2014 stats most of the ISK loss would be to ganking. Considering how easy it is for baddies to pull off, it sees infinite growth. There is no risk, losing a free ship is hardly a setback. There is no luck, in the long run you get the average, and chance to get everything is equal to chance of getting nothing. There is infinite ISK, as you are free to choose any target and nothing target does can stop you (logi, ewar, webbing has been tried and never succeeded), and have no associated cost due to catalyst being free. Overall, ganking is infinite ISK (you can log in, get your share in a billion freighter in 30 seconds, log out till next freighter - NOTHING beats that in ISK/hour).
Tippia wrote:The odds of surviving a gank are roughly 100%-+¦, as proven beyond any question by the number of ships flying through space at any given time and the utterly minute number of profitable ganks that come out of all those flights. The fundamental error in your thinking is that you incorrectly believe that the gank starts at the press of F1. It doesn't. It starts a couple of minutes before you click GÇ£undockGÇ¥. The usual Tippia nonsense. The odds of surviving a gank are roughly 0%++¦, where +¦ is mostly the chance you're ganked at 10:59:50 and gankers forgot about downtime. The ships are allowed to fly because gankers are bad and lazy - if they aren't bad, they won't be ganking, and if they aren't lazy, none shall pass. The chance of being lazed upon is the real 100%-+¦, not related to chances of survival in any way, save for being a few orders of magnitude lower in +¦ that the value of +¦ in survival odds.
Tippia wrote:If what you said was true, it should not have been possible for me to not die once to a gank in more than 7 years, nor to have survived three actual attacks (in one case, without even having the time to turn on my tank). The bad and the lazy, just like I said.
Tippia wrote:Gankers are entirely at the mercy of their GÇ£victims.GÇ¥ If the victims choses not to be a victim, they won't be, and there's nothing the ganker can do to change that. He can't conjure up a different cargo in the holds; he can't magically remove fitted mods; he can't reach in and alter the routing in the other player's client; he can't remote-control the ship and its modules. All he can do is hope that the other player does something fundamentally stupid. Typical Tippia nonsense. "The bear is at the mercy of a human, because should human suicide inside his house, the bear will never get to eat him." No ship, no mods, no skills, no measures can defend against N+1 free ship catalyst gank. It deals more damage than it is possible to tank in hisec ship, thus automatically being absolute. The only way to not get ganked is to never undock. Otherwise you're a the mercy of their badness and lazyness.
Tippia wrote:Ah, so you're going for the GÇ£if you're going to lie, lie bigGÇ¥ route. What you say is inherently false because the game simply does not allow for what you just described. It cannot possibly be free, and there is absolutely no way for the ganker to pick their reward. If you believe either of those, you are so ignorant of everything related to the topic that you disqualify yourself from commenting on it. How do you explain the indisputable fact that the vast majority of people manage to do exactly that, then? Good news: it was removed in late 2011. Typical Tippia nonsense. You know perfectly well N+1 free ship catalyst gank is absolute, thus capable of picking any target it wants and F1monkeying it. There is nothing the game doesn't allow in this scenario, but you claimed it anyway for reasons I never cared to understand.
Vast majority of people were lazed upon. It was never removed, only buffed multiple times since 2011 to reach current epic (presumably the leading ISK value loss, easily overshadowing wars) proportions.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
193
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 10:57:17 -
[111] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You crushed nothing. Everything you spout is the same old rehashed myths and lies spouted by people who have no idea how ganking works. All you ever brought was "herp derp gankz hard needz peepz press F1z leetz skilz" which never really required any crushing, due to being the main source of the opinion on how easy and free ganking is.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15883
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 10:59:25 -
[112] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:baltec1 wrote:You crushed nothing. Everything you spout is the same old rehashed myths and lies spouted by people who have no idea how ganking works. All you ever brought was "herp derp gankz hard needz peepz press F1z leetz skilz" which never really required any crushing, due to being the main source of the opinion on how easy and free ganking is.
You say a lot of things yet provide zero evidence.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
193
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 11:06:06 -
[113] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:baltec1 wrote:You crushed nothing. Everything you spout is the same old rehashed myths and lies spouted by people who have no idea how ganking works. All you ever brought was "herp derp gankz hard needz peepz press F1z leetz skilz" which never really required any crushing, due to being the main source of the opinion on how easy and free ganking is. You say a lot of things yet provide zero evidence.
You need evidence that catalyst is free? Career agents await. You need evidence that catalyst N+1 can't be tanked against? Mathz await. You need evidence that pressing F1 is easy? Keyboards await.
Talos ganks are even easier than catalyst ganks because they need less trained F1 pressing dogs. But they have cost. Catalyst ganks have no cost, and therein lies the problem. Failing a Talos gank, you lose something, failing a Catalyst gank you lose only free ships. This is where the risk becomes too low. This is the point I'm asking to fix. Don't be confused.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25139
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 11:08:49 -
[114] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:So, because gankers were too lazy to gank you, the problem of free riskless gank does not exist and is utter bollocks? The problem of GÇ£free riskless ganksGÇ¥ does not exist for the simple reason that ganks are inherently not free, and inherently not riskless. It has nothing to do with laziness, except maybe on the part of the victim since their laziness is the only thing that has a chance of counteracting the inherent and unavoidable costs and risks of ganking.
Quote:No, it means exactly that. It has the same chance of giving you everything as it does giving you nothing. In the long run, you will get the average Actually, no, it doesn't, because that would rely on the incorrect assumption that value follows a neat bell curve where mean and median happen to coincide.
Quote:So you just pick on words by claiming anything that costs 0.01 ISK in any way is not free. At the same time, you perfectly realize what I were trying to say, but sill try to pick on the wording with obvious sense. We can use other words. "given at no cost'. "dirt-cheap". "almost free". "available in extreme quantities at symbolic price". You could, but you'd still not accurately describe the costs of ganks.
Quote:Please, not this bollocks again, we all know industrial in lowsec is certain death (well maybe you don't, but killboards do). We all know that ganking is done not for profit, but for "getting better" and "winning eve" by F1-monkeying industrials. We all know that no amount of tank would save you from 30 catalysts piloted by trained dogs. Not even marauders survive it. We all know that there is no way to make ends meet with JF's unless you are Black frog with 9-figure tolls for hauling in them. No, we don't actually know any of that for the simple reason that reality does not agree with any of them. All you're saying here is that you have no experience with making money from bulk goods, no experience with ganking (on either side), and no experience with basic game mechanics. Even worse, even in spite of this complete lack of experience, you choose to substitute ignorance for it rather than actually educate yourself on what works and why.
Quote:I concede. I am incapable of blowing nearly as much ignorance as you spew into this post. This is true. He's on the minus-section of that particular scale and you're so far in the positive that you think +GêP is the origo. For you to approach his level, you would first have to understand how ignorant you are of the actual scale, much less your position on it. Only then can you actually start to crush anything except your own chances of actually saying something that holds up to reality.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25139
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 11:11:29 -
[115] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:You need evidence that catalyst is free? Career agents await. You need evidence that catalyst N+1 can't be tanked against? Mathz await. You need evidence that pressing F1 is easy? Keyboards await. So in other words, you don't understand how carreer agents work, nor how value works, since you think that they give out free catalysts. You don't understand how tanking works, since you think that N+1 catalysts can't be tanked. You don't understand how ganks work, since you think it's a matter of pressing F1
The only evidence you've provided is that you don't know anything about EVE, much less about ganking.
Quote:Catalyst ganks have no cost, and therein lies the problem. Yes, the problem is that you think catalysts have no cost, when there is no conceivable metric that would ever let you say that.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15884
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 11:13:19 -
[116] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
You need evidence that catalyst is free? Career agents await.
We chew though several thousand of catalysts, are you saying all of these ships can be farmed from career agents? Are you also saying that all of the fittings are also provided by these agents?
That is a rather easy lie to see though there.
Basil Pupkin wrote: You need evidence that catalyst N+1 can't be tanked against? Mathz await.
Ever wonded whey catalyst gangs are not used against battleship gangs in low and nullsec? Its because they cant break logi and they are easily removed by anti-support ships. You dont need much to beat a gank attempt.
Basil Pupkin wrote: You need evidence that pressing F1 is easy? Keyboards await.
So why are you concentrating on the last 10-20 seconds of a gank and not the two hours of work before that?
Basil Pupkin wrote: Talos ganks are even easier than catalyst ganks because they need less trained F1 pressing dogs. But they have cost. Catalyst ganks have no cost, and therein lies the problem. Failing a Talos gank, you lose something, failing a Catalyst gank you lose only free ships. This is where the risk becomes too low. This is the point I'm asking to fix. Don't be confused.
Please, show me this "free" catalyst fit.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24257
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 11:15:13 -
[117] - Quote
The one thing that is certain about this thread ... ... is that it provides enough data for a long and detailed petition.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12975
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Posted - 2015.05.13 11:34:15 -
[118] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: Ganking is extremely commonplace
Meanwhile, in the world of facts, ganking is at the weakest and least prevalent it has ever been.
We now return you to "Basil's World of Lies".
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25143
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Posted - 2015.05.13 12:04:43 -
[119] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Ganking is extremely commonplace and I will not be surprised if by 2014 stats most of the ISK loss would be to ganking. Considering how easy it is for baddies to pull off, it sees infinite growth. There is no risk, losing a free ship is hardly a setback. There is no luck, in the long run you get the average, and chance to get everything is equal to chance of getting nothing. There is infinite ISK, as you are free to choose any target and nothing target does can stop you (logi, ewar, webbing has been tried and never succeeded), and have no associated cost due to catalyst being free. If it's so commonplace, how come the vast majority of ships survive? How come only a tiny handful of groups are doing it (which, by the way, is part of what makes it so much easier to avoid now)? How come it hasn't seen any growth? How come CCP's stats contradict your baseless assumptions about losses? How can it have be made easer when it has only ever received nerfs?
There is risk because there is no way to hack the mechanics involved to remove it, and even if there was such a thing as free ships (there isn't), it would still not remove the risks. All you are saying here is that you have almost no idea of what GÇ£riskGÇ¥ means.
Luck is required because without it, there will be nothing to gank. Your assumption that I'm talking about the loot fairy (that does not operate on the simplistic maths you are also ignorantly assuming) demonstrates that you don't understand where the income comes from.
Oh, and by the way, the methods you mention have been tried and proven to be very successful. They're just being dismissed by the people who haven't tried them on the baseless assumption that it wouldn't work so why bother.
Quote:Overall, ganking is infinite ISK (you can log in, get your share in a billion freighter in 30 seconds, log out till next freighter - NOTHING beats that in ISK/hour). GǪexcept that if we're going for wholly unrealistic scenarios, then I'm going to say that you can log in, find a free-floating can of 200 PLEXes, log out, and have earned six orders of magnitude more in the same timespan. By the way, your scenario offers an ISK/h that is roughly on par with mining Scordite or running L3 missions. Had you been familiar with the mechanics, tactics, and strategies involved, you would have realised before trying to make it sound like it was a lotGǪ
Quote:The odds of surviving a gank are roughly 0%++¦, where +¦ is mostly the chance you're ganked at 10:59:50 and gankers forgot about downtime. The ships are allowed to fly because gankers are bad and lazy - if they aren't bad, they won't be ganking, and if they aren't lazy, none shall pass. The chance of being lazed upon is the real 100%-+¦, not related to chances of survival in any way, save for being a few orders of magnitude lower in +¦ that the value of +¦ in survival odds. Funny how you manage to shoot your own argument in the foot in your zeal to paint gankers as bad players. You just proved why the chances of surviving are 100%-+¦ and why ganks are so exceedingly rare: because they are so utterly trivial to avoid. And yes, survival begins the moment you undock the moment you start loading your ship. That is where you set the odds of survival, and they are entirely up to you to set GÇö the gankers themselves are hardly even a factor.
It's how people can (and have) gone years and years without ever being destroyed, ever being a target, or even ever seeing a gank. So much for low chance of survival and being commonplaceGǪ
Quote:"The bear is at the mercy of a human, because should human suicide inside his house, the bear will never get to eat him." No ship, no mods, no skills, no measures can defend against N+1 free ship catalyst gank. It deals more damage than it is possible to tank in hisec ship, thus automatically being absolute. Nice. Both an ignorant strawman and a complete lack of understanding of basic facts of the game.
The bear is at the mercy of the human because the human can choose not to encounter the bear and can also choose, should he want or anticipate that encounter, to just nuke the bear from orbit. Only by a staggering coincidence of ignorance, indifference, inattention, unpreparedness, and outright bad luck on the human's part does the bear stand a chance of doing anything at all. The only people who think that you have to stay locked up are the ones who refuse to actually understand how ganking works because they have already decided, based on nothing, that they are incapable of defending against it.
Beyond that, there is an entire line of ships, mods, skills, and measures to defend against N+1 catalysts (which aren't free, by the way). They deliver so little damage that you need, oh, about (N-1)/2 ships to defend against them, especially in highsec, where they can't do as much damage as they'd otherwise be capable of.
Quote:You know perfectly well N+1 free ship catalyst gank is absolute, thus capable of picking any target it wants and F1monkeying it. There is nothing the game doesn't allow in this scenario, but you claimed it anyway for reasons I never cared to understand. No, I don't know that perfectly well, largely because it's simply not true. The game flat out makes it impossible, and any attempts at circumventing those limits are subject to EULA interventions and bans. I claim that it is so for two reasons: because it is so, and because you keep trying to argue a state of affairs that is made impossible by the game. This makes your case particularly laughable to anyone with even a fleeting understanding of EVE's basic mechanics (to say nothing of anyone who has actually tried to look into how ganking works).
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24264
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 12:22:48 -
[120] - Quote
I propose we use Tippia's posts in the future. Why engage into pointless discussions, when she has it all covered.
And linking makes google happy as well ... ... so there's no need to argue with the extremists "because of google".
Hail Tippia! ^_^
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1042
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:24:42 -
[121] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Not to mention that the profitability of ganking is so stupidly high (because it's free and you can pick any reward you want). Not only is ganking free in this game, even the minerals you mine yourself are free!! You can then build any ship you want, for free. This means ships are free too. Same for modules. Everything is free!
This game is amazing!
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24328
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Posted - 2015.05.13 15:27:39 -
[122] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Not to mention that the profitability of ganking is so stupidly high (because it's free and you can pick any reward you want). Not only is ganking free in this game, even the minerals you mine yourself are free!! You can then build any ship you want, for free. This means ships are free too. Same for modules. Everything is free! This game is amazing! ROFL YOU ALMOST MADE ME SPIT COFFEE AT MY MOBILE LOL!!!
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Anyanka Funk
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
82
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Posted - 2015.05.13 15:39:31 -
[123] - Quote
Yeah. I just make t1 fit thrashers and gank any capsule that I can. I just do it for the thrill and I make no isk from it. I have the BPO for the ship and modules I use so I can mine them for cheaper costs. Faction ammo still costs isk, so does the initial BPO, and so does manufacturing costs. So it doesn't cost me too much to gank.
Signature removed due to inappropriate content - CCP Falcon
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25148
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Posted - 2015.05.13 16:11:32 -
[124] - Quote
Anyanka Funk wrote:Yeah. I just make t1 fit thrashers and gank any capsule that I can. I just do it for the thrill and I make no isk from it. I have the BPO for the ship and modules I use so I can mine them for cheaper costs. Faction ammo still costs isk, so does the initial BPO, and so does manufacturing costs. So it doesn't cost me too much to gank. It doesn't actually get any cheaper just because you do the mining mine GÇö in fact, the opposite is often much more likely, especially if you mine specifically for the particular set of minerals that is required by the BPO.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
340
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Posted - 2015.05.13 16:18:19 -
[125] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:While I said it with a meaning that wanking game needs to be balanced with other games in terms of effort (currently minimal), risk (currently none), and reward (currently infinite), rather than blindly nerfed, I will not go into this discussion with an obvious troll.
Your myopic perspective of this game, and your obvious attempt to elicit some sort of fight by marginalizing and labeling in a derogatory manner, a player base that is actually playing the game by the rules is GÇ£trollingGÇ¥. Not sure why ISDGÇÖs miss this.
Comparing this game to others and wanting this game to be like the others clearly tells the audience you do not understand EvE or why it has been designed and played this way. This is my 10th year, and the reason I stay here and do not play any other game, is because EvE is like no other. And that is the way it should remain.
Now if you are not actually trolling, then it is obvious that your bloviating speaks of an insecure juvenile,
Basil Pupkin wrote:Ok, let's nerf my game too. I'll still be crafty and wealthy in comparison, but the very second we introduce skill component to ganking, CODE will failcascade, and future gankers would be worthy of respect at least. So fine, nerf ganking together with my game, whatever you presume it is.
To be clear about one thing, and even the DEV missed the reason (s) why people GÇ£GankGÇ¥.
I use my main, always have. I want you know who smacked you. My purpose is my own, it satisfies my purpose. And there are quite a few players that do.
One of my purposes was the crusade towards the RMT ice miners. Slamming SB ravens into a group of Macks just to make a point. (No profit, but a solid purpose)
Other times it is based on intel. Shocker I know, playing a game with some sort of motivation to shut down someoneGÇÖs war making capability because they tried to hide their operation in high sec. (no individual profit, but a solid operational purpose)
Imagine that, nothing about making any sort of isk and willing not to make a profit for a bigger purpose.
That is playing a game way over your head, and beyond your myopic understanding of how the game GÇ£canGÇ¥ be played.
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24353
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Posted - 2015.05.13 16:31:53 -
[126] - Quote
Baaldor wrote:Your myopic perspective of this game, and your obvious attempt to elicit some sort of fight by marginalizing and labeling in a derogatory manner, a player base that is actually playing the game by the rules is GÇ£trollingGÇ¥. Not sure why ISDGÇÖs miss this. They don't miss it. It's not trolling, though.
"Trolling" as a word has become meaningless, because it's being thrown around at everyone nowadays, including the clueless people throwing it at those who are actually right.
The one thing people could actually do is stopping responding to him, because that's the only thing that matters to him.
Every single response is a win and he's deliberately abusing every single one of you. He abuses your weaknesses and keeps the fire hot and well fed. And that makes his problem, as I call it, actually worse.
Every time someone says "I want to educate him" or "it's fun" ... ... someone outs himself as a victim.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12980
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Posted - 2015.05.13 16:34:23 -
[127] - Quote
Sol, you tried to claim that he's not just trolling by spewing his nonsense, and then list several reasons that show he is, in fact, trolling.
Just wanted to point that one out.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
342
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Posted - 2015.05.13 16:39:02 -
[128] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sol, you tried to claim that he's not just trolling by spewing his nonsense, and then list several reasons that show he is, in fact, trolling.
Just wanted to point that one out.
Well in a Sol's Haiku manner of response it does spell out that he is indeed a troll, by asking us not to continue to feed him. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
1046
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Posted - 2015.05.13 16:42:09 -
[129] - Quote
It is obvious to everyone that he has no clue about the game. He is obviously just another mad highsec miner. I think he should calm down a bit and then get a mining permit. It always helps to let them calm down first, so they realize that they are at the bottom of the food chain and accept their place.
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24353
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Posted - 2015.05.13 17:03:26 -
[130] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sol, you tried to claim that he's not just trolling by spewing his nonsense, and then list several reasons that show he is, in fact, trolling.
Just wanted to point that one out.
Baaldor wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sol, you tried to claim that he's not just trolling by spewing his nonsense, and then list several reasons that show he is, in fact, trolling.
Just wanted to point that one out. Well in a Sol's Haiku manner of response it does spell out that he is indeed a troll, by asking us not to continue to feed him. Sheesh, that confused me. I simply want this to stop, that's all. I'd call him what I see, but having such a post removed again is a bad idea. I'm really not keeping up with what people consider trolling nowadays.
People consider me a troll. People consider him a troll.
If I'm a troll, then what is he?
It does not make sense anymore. -.-
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24353
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Posted - 2015.05.13 17:04:13 -
[131] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:It is obvious to everyone that he has no clue about the game. He is obviously just another mad highsec miner. I think he should calm down a bit and then get a mining permit. It always helps to let them calm down first, so they realize that they are at the bottom of the food chain and accept their place.
This game is amazing!
ROFL! XD Holy **** I burst out in laughter! XD
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24357
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Posted - 2015.05.13 17:31:40 -
[132] - Quote
Baaldor wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sol, you tried to claim that he's not just trolling by spewing his nonsense, and then list several reasons that show he is, in fact, trolling.
Just wanted to point that one out. Well in a Sol's Haiku manner of response it does spell out that he is indeed a troll, by asking us not to continue to feed him. Tbh this comes from iambic pentameter. I will not go into the depths of explaining why it ended up like this.
Have you ever tried talking like that? It's brilliant!
I will try to fix it somehow.
I will *clapclap* try to *clapclap* fix it *clapclap* some-how. *clapclap*
Iambic pentameter. I am perfectly aware of "me doing it wrong", btw. It's all a horrible mess and I never cared enough about fixing it.
I love doing this kind of stuff ! :D
Hell ... just for fun I had hours of online chats learning to rhyme automagically. If I couldn't create a rhyme to write what I wanted, I didn't write anything. After two hours I simply could not stop expressing myself in rhymes. I loved it ! :D
Every word is a note ... ... every sentence a melody.
To me reading through all your text is like hearing an orchestra.
Yeah I should definitely have a look at this again. I miss talking like that.
I guess the biggest problem comes from me mixing austrian and english.
I have no idea, I'm just a troll anyway, just got home from work and I'm kind of tired right now. :p
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
Baaldor > ... Sol's Haiku manner of response ...
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
374
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Posted - 2015.05.13 18:01:16 -
[133] - Quote
This thread escalated quickly.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
343
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Posted - 2015.05.13 18:19:22 -
[134] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Baaldor wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sol, you tried to claim that he's not just trolling by spewing his nonsense, and then list several reasons that show he is, in fact, trolling.
Just wanted to point that one out. Well in a Sol's Haiku manner of response it does spell out that he is indeed a troll, by asking us not to continue to feed him. Tbh this comes from iambic pentameter. I will not go into the depths of explaining why it ended up like this. Have you ever tried talking like that? It's brilliant! I will try to fix it somehow. I will *clapclap* try to *clapclap* fix it *clapclap* some-how. *clapclap* Iambic pentameter.I am perfectly aware of "me doing it wrong", btw. It's all a horrible mess and I never cared enough about fixing it. I love doing this kind of stuff ! :D Hell ... just for fun I had hours of online chats learning to rhyme automagically. If I couldn't create a rhyme to write what I wanted, I didn't write anything. After two hours I simply could not stop expressing myself in rhymes. I loved it ! :D Every word is a note ... ... every sentence a melody. To me reading through all your text is like hearing an orchestra. Yeah I should definitely have a look at this again. I miss talking like that. I guess the biggest problem comes from me mixing austrian and english. I have no idea, I'm just a troll anyway, just got home from work and I'm kind of tired right now. :p
I do the same thing to schedule production Did the same while in the Service.
I am actually trying to stop Trying to develop some sort of sentence structure
However.... |
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2273
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Posted - 2015.05.13 18:53:41 -
[135] - Quote
Tears |
Xenias Gigawatt
Kids with Catalysts Clockwork Pineapple
6
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Posted - 2015.05.14 09:44:39 -
[136] - Quote
Lost in time, As if in rain |
Kaye Kaye
Mining and Trade
6
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Posted - 2015.05.14 16:02:49 -
[137] - Quote
1) Fly Freighters, Blockade Runners or Fast Frigs, that's it. 2) Freighters = Around a Billion Value and you're safe as any place in game. Autopilot or whatever you want. 3) Blockade Runner and Frigs = Any Value, but learn to Travel Stealth in HS, NEVER auto..
Freighters = If you get ganked, it's truly a FUN experience since it takes so many ships to kill you, it's one of the most memorable experiences you will have in this game = happened to me once in Burn Jita (best memory, 42 kill mails, 3 Billion lost, plus ship) .... I've been chosen!!
Of the 4 years, I've played with different alts... NEVER once ganked or attacked in a Blockade or Frigate in HS due to how fast these ships get out of the way....... Always scanned in T1 Indy's and Freighters on every run in HS. |
Antihrist Pripravnik
T-AFK and counting
920
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Posted - 2015.05.14 16:32:25 -
[138] - Quote
This is a matter of typical MMO player behavior. When an MMO player see a container, loot chest or anything else that could contain valuable items in it, the player tries to crack it open just to see what's inside.
It's unfortunate that your ship can be seen by others as a loot pi+¦ata, but that's how things are around here. |
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