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Any news of a Faction Warfare change?

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M0IST FISH Lubed'Up'Dead'Gurl KRAKEN. 0	Posted - 2015.05.16 10:48:08 - [1] - Quote Subject really says it, has their been anything to indicate that Faction Warfare will see a pass in terms of changing capture mechanics? I ask as i avoid it really, due to the reliance on farming alts which contribute mostly to the capturing mechanics. For say, if they changed it to rely on the value ship kills or something, with a LP return 90% of the killed ships isk worth for those invovled, with 30% of it going into a pool (similar to ESS), which is released upon capture of the system for offensive fighting, defensive you get all 90%. Once a total pool of destroyed isk has been reached, it would allow the system to be flipped. I think that mechanic would serve a lot better than orbiting a mark in space.
Bienator II madmen of the skies 3296	Posted - 2015.05.16 15:00:16 - [2] - Quote no news. Ccp is doing nulksec now how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 3936	Posted - 2015.05.16 16:47:52 - [3] - Quote I think at fanfest 2015 there was some talk of eliminating 'teams' (Gal+Min and Cal+Amarr) and possibly reviewing missions, but nothing big. IMHO, FW is in a pretty good spot at the moment, in terms of capture mechanics. Farming alts are: . Very effective for defending systems nobody really wants . Not very effective for contesting systems, because you really can't o-plex semi-AFK with the new, frequent, NPC respawns . Pretty much useless for attacking/defending a system that one or both militias care about Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
PlantythePottedPlant Ultima Unitatis The Asylum. 5	Posted - 2015.05.16 17:35:51 - [4] - Quote If you made the change in the OP, all one would have to do is not lose any ships in the system and it would never be flipped. Why defend if you need to be in the system to lose it? Either way someone would be better off not being in the system if it's based on the value of ship kills. If it's made to degrade over time, the offenders wouldn't enter the system, if it's just flat ship kill value, the defenders would never enter the system. It would just be a dead system both ways. At least how it is now, there has to be a ship in the system to o/dplex it, even if half the time it's stabbed. There's still risk and there's still a reason to be there.
Zarnak Wulf Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 1853	Posted - 2015.05.17 19:46:29 - [5] - Quote The mechanics of conquering a system, as stated above, are fine. The inherent value and reward of FW being embodied in those mechanics alone, are not. FW space isn't null but you really should be able to do SOMETHING with the systems you own. Maybe create some one time use LP items that can stir the pot. I.E. - Item X, when cashed in at a station, prevents ANYONE with a negative standing toward your militia to be unable to dock there....
MiningAlt Caldari Stable 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:06:27 - [6] - Quote Wait here, are we playing same game? Alts are perfect for defensive and offensive afk plexing, everyone does it. You just take drone ship, warp to plex and go afk. Your drones will kill every npc spawn. This tactic is used to plex back end systems a lot. I say that current FW mechanics promotes AFK playing. Only solution is complete overhaul of FW plex mechanics and I had some ideas: 1. LP rewards from plexing would be only in "active" constellations. Active constellation would have systems belonging to both militias and those that are connected to enemy militia system. Players can plex even in non active constellations, but with no LP gain. This would solve "farming" problem, because LPs gain would be just in systems with enemy presence so afk farming would be nearly impossible. Plexing in back end systems would be still possible for capturing system, but not for easy LP farming. 2. Second idea would use same principle of "Active" constellation, but this time plexing could be only in active area and we would have 2 different bars for capturing. First one: Constellation Contested level - increased by capturing plexes in whole constellation. When the contested level reaches 100% then systems that are connected to enemy militia systems will be open for siege plexing. Second bar: Siege Progress - same style as we have now, capturing sites in same system will increase its siege progress, and when siege progress hits 100% then militia can shoot ihub and capture system. When siege progress hits 50% then enemy militia can dock it that system and effect will last as long system is +1% siege progress. The Constellation Contested level cannot be reduced as long some friendly system has Siege status. Reducing would be done by capturing friendly sites and by passing time as well, so if no enemy militia plexes constellation, then it will "cool down" I hope some devs will read this and apply some idea .
Moglarr Operation Meatshield 87	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:13:53 - [7] - Quote MiningAlt wrote: Wait here, are we playing same game? Alts are perfect for defensive and offensive afk plexing, everyone does it. You just take drone ship, warp to plex and go afk. Your drones will kill every npc spawn. This tactic is used to plex back end systems a lot. I say that current FW mechanics promotes AFK playing. Only solution is complete overhaul of FW plex mechanics and I had some ideas: 1. LP rewards from plexing would be only in "active" constellations. Active constellation would have systems belonging to both militias and those that are connected to enemy militia system. Players can plex even in non active constellations, but with no LP gain. This would solve "farming" problem, because LPs gain would be just in systems with enemy presence so afk farming would be nearly impossible. Plexing in back end systems would be still possible for capturing system, but not for easy LP farming. 2. Second idea would use same principle of "Active" constellation, but this time plexing could be only in active area and we would have 2 different bars for capturing. First one: Constellation Contested level - increased by capturing plexes in whole constellation. When the contested level reaches 100% then systems that are connected to enemy militia systems will be open for siege plexing. Second bar: Siege Progress - same style as we have now, capturing sites in same system will increase its siege progress, and when siege progress hits 100% then militia can shoot ihub and capture system. When siege progress hits 50% then enemy militia can dock it that system and effect will last as long system is +1% siege progress. The Constellation Contested level cannot be reduced as long some friendly system has Siege status. Reducing would be done by capturing friendly sites and by passing time as well, so if no enemy militia plexes constellation, then it will "cool down" I hope some devs will read this and apply some idea . In all fairness I only skimmed this before going "wat" and replying in broad strokes. First of all, AFK plexing is hard if you enemy is active within the WZ. Because your alt will die. A lot. Which is cool, because the alt is a tool to achieve an objective. Now, if your gripe is with AFK alts farming systems no one cares enough to defend, I would point out that no one cares enough to defend those systems so move along. Something I believe a lot of pilots overlook is that the value of FW space is determined 100% by who lives in it. Yes, some systems can offer more tactical advantages such as ease of supplying, agents for income or ease of power projection. However, if no one lives in that system, or near it, then it isn't a particularly valuable system to actively try to defend or capture which is why it becomes the home of AFK alts and farmers. If you truly desire to change that, then take your corp and plant yourself in that system and claim it as yours! Then crush anyone to tries to refute that claim, or get beaten and move somewhere new. Either way you get get a lot of fights and learn some cool stuff about FW while doing it. Operation Meatshield! Getup and fight!
MiningAlt Caldari Stable 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:18:56 - [8] - Quote Moglarr wrote: MiningAlt wrote: Wait here, are we playing same game? Alts are perfect for defensive and offensive afk plexing, everyone does it. You just take drone ship, warp to plex and go afk. Your drones will kill every npc spawn. This tactic is used to plex back end systems a lot. I say that current FW mechanics promotes AFK playing. Only solution is complete overhaul of FW plex mechanics and I had some ideas: 1. LP rewards from plexing would be only in "active" constellations. Active constellation would have systems belonging to both militias and those that are connected to enemy militia system. Players can plex even in non active constellations, but with no LP gain. This would solve "farming" problem, because LPs gain would be just in systems with enemy presence so afk farming would be nearly impossible. Plexing in back end systems would be still possible for capturing system, but not for easy LP farming. 2. Second idea would use same principle of "Active" constellation, but this time plexing could be only in active area and we would have 2 different bars for capturing. First one: Constellation Contested level - increased by capturing plexes in whole constellation. When the contested level reaches 100% then systems that are connected to enemy militia systems will be open for siege plexing. Second bar: Siege Progress - same style as we have now, capturing sites in same system will increase its siege progress, and when siege progress hits 100% then militia can shoot ihub and capture system. When siege progress hits 50% then enemy militia can dock it that system and effect will last as long system is +1% siege progress. The Constellation Contested level cannot be reduced as long some friendly system has Siege status. Reducing would be done by capturing friendly sites and by passing time as well, so if no enemy militia plexes constellation, then it will "cool down" I hope some devs will read this and apply some idea . In all fairness I only skimmed this before going "wat" and replying in broad strokes. First of all, AFK plexing is hard if you enemy is active within the WZ. Because your alt will die. A lot. Which is cool, because the alt is a tool to achieve an objective. Now, if your gripe is with AFK alts farming systems no one cares enough to defend, I would point out that no one cares enough to defend those systems so move along. Something I believe a lot of pilots overlook is that the value of FW space is determined 100% by who lives in it. Yes, some systems can offer more tactical advantages such as ease of supplying, agents for income or ease of power projection. However, if no one lives in that system, or near it, then it isn't a particularly valuable system to actively try to defend or capture which is why it becomes the home of AFK alts and farmers. If you truly desire to change that, then take your corp and plant yourself in that system and claim it as yours! Then crush anyone to tries to refute that claim, or get beaten and move somewhere new. Either way you get get a lot of fights and learn some cool stuff about FW while doing it. Can I get reply from someone who inst living in 3 system area? We all know hard is to keep huge areas of systems stable and under control when there are moving groups of stabbed afk farming alts. My ideas would bring more activity to FW in more enjoyable way.
Nameira Vanis-Tor Hoplite Brigade 127	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:53:52 - [9] - Quote Unless the group occupying a system can convincingly cover two out of three timezones then the farmer hordes can evict occupied systems - even if you spend your one active timezone solidly d-plexing you will still lose. This is why we make an effort to have members and FCs/Officers in all time zones.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1416	Posted - 2015.05.22 08:58:34 - [10] - Quote MiningAlt wrote: Can I get reply from someone who inst living in 3 system area? We all know hard is to keep huge areas of systems stable and under control when there are moving groups of stabbed afk farming alts. My ideas would bring more activity to FW in more enjoyable way. I agree ylien, afk alts are lame. I assume you agree that non afk alts are ok though. Any response to your 'multiple petitions' against me multiboxing? lol

MiningAlt Caldari Stable 0	Posted - 2015.05.22 11:04:09 - [11] - Quote And some people actually wonders why is no one posting good ideas about FW changes, when we get trolled all the time. Agree Crosi, AFK alts are bad, but you need to adjust to current meta if you want to keep systems. No response so far on multiboxing and account sharing :D
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1416	Posted - 2015.05.22 11:47:41 - [12] - Quote MiningAlt wrote: And some people actually wonders why is no one posting good ideas about FW changes, when we get trolled all the time. Agree Crosi, AFK alts are bad, but you need to adjust to current meta if you want to keep systems. No response so far on multiboxing and account sharing :D Multiboxing is allowed (almost compulsory) and ive never given any of my account information to another living soul. Please keep telling me about these petitions though, its funny :) Even funnier since you are posting with an alt of yours Ylien, that you multibox... haha And far better suggestions have been made in the past to improve quality of life in FW. These are small changes but will be overlooked until CCP come back around to iterate on FW.
Andre Vauban Quantum Cats Syndicate 404	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:35:33 - [13] - Quote MiningAlt wrote: Can I get reply from someone who inst living in 3 system area? We all know hard is to keep huge areas of systems stable and under control when there are moving groups of stabbed afk farming alts. My ideas would bring more activity to FW in more enjoyable way. That is the whole point. If people actually live there, it is a royal PITA to evict them. If nobody lives there, it's easy to take the system. There is no difference between AFK plexing and active plexing a system nobody gives a crap about enough for them to even attempt to try and force you out of the plex. The system, as is, is actually pretty darn good right now. The only change I think could help a little is the "rollback timer to neutral value" idea where once I force my opponent out of the plex the timer will continue to roll back to a neutral state even if I leave the plex. Your idea is not good. It is forcing mechanics into a situation that don't need to be there. Your ideas can easily lead to situations where one militia gets the upper hand and the game mechanics make it nigh on impossible for the other militia to stage a come back. Farmers are needed to force the pendulum to swing. .
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1416	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:59:12 - [14] - Quote They kinda half baked the cloak fix. But if they just make it so that the timer ignores ships with cloaks and/or stabs fitted you have everything you need to fix afk farming as a player. Without having to refit for cheesy anti farmer fits.
Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 454	Posted - 2015.05.22 15:24:03 - [15] - Quote Under the current system I'm not even sure we need/want timer rollbacks anymore.
Squatdog State Protectorate Caldari State 179	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:25:59 - [16] - Quote NO STABS IN PLEXES. drops mic and steps away from thread
BigDaddy Toothbrush Rapid Withdrawal 9	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:54:30 - [17] - Quote Squatdog wrote: NO STABS IN PLEXES. drops mic and steps away from thread How would squids get into plexes?
May Arethusa PillowBrigade Inc 27	Posted - 2015.05.28 21:43:43 - [18] - Quote BigDaddy Toothbrush wrote: Squatdog wrote: NO STABS IN PLEXES. drops mic and steps away from thread How would squids get into plexes? Ventures.
Moglarr Operation Meatshield 90	Posted - 2015.05.28 23:10:23 - [19] - Quote BigDaddy Toothbrush wrote: Squatdog wrote: NO STABS IN PLEXES. drops mic and steps away from thread How would squids get into plexes? Probably in the derp **** I hand out to throw at you guys. Speaking of throwing pilots and ships at the Gallente, Operation Meatshield is recruiting. Operation Meatshield! Getup and fight!
Squatdog State Protectorate Caldari State 179	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:08:01 - [20] - Quote BigDaddy Toothbrush wrote: Squatdog wrote: NO STABS IN PLEXES. drops mic and steps away from thread How would Frogs get into plexes? I don't know, they'd probably have to quit Eve.

Veronica Isagar Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 17	Posted - 2015.05.30 09:36:18 - [21] - Quote If there was something that needs to be changed, it would be to make any form of warp core stabs, un-usable in plexes, unless its built in to the ship (you'll see a WHOLE lot of ventures now) BLACK FOX is RECRUITING
Moglarr Operation Meatshield 90	Posted - 2015.05.30 18:32:40 - [22] - Quote I really don't think I understand the hardon everyone has for warp core stabs. Maybe it is because I don't run into many stabbed ships, or maybe it is because I don't care and am the type to spite-close plexes if someone bails from it. But seriously, who cares how the dude is fit? If someone doesn't want to fight you, they wont. It doesn't matter how many rules and conditions you put in the way, that is just a plain and simple fact. Most of EVE is trying to find a way to make people who don't want to fight you stand their ground. If you want to hunt stabbed ships all day long, then fit your ship to do that. If you don't want to gimp your fit to be able to catch stabbed hulls, then quit complaining because they obviously aren't that big of a problem for you. After all, if a system has active occupants stabbed ships can't really do much harm. Operation Meatshield! Getup and fight!
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 3990	Posted - 2015.05.30 21:19:23 - [23] - Quote Moglarr wrote: I really don't think I understand the hardon everyone has for warp core stabs. Maybe it is because I don't run into many stabbed ships, or maybe it is because I don't care and am the type to spite-close plexes if someone bails from it. But seriously, who cares how the dude is fit? If someone doesn't want to fight you, they wont. It doesn't matter how many rules and conditions you put in the way, that is just a plain and simple fact. Most of EVE is trying to find a way to make people who don't want to fight you stand their ground. If you want to hunt stabbed ships all day long, then fit your ship to do that. If you don't want to gimp your fit to be able to catch stabbed hulls, then quit complaining because they obviously aren't that big of a problem for you. After all, if a system has active occupants stabbed ships can't really do much harm. I agree. Also, use PLH. Instascan and analysis of pilots in local --> easily spot 1-month old farmers --> move along (or chat, if you speak russian). Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1416	Posted - 2015.05.30 23:03:43 - [24] - Quote Moglarr wrote: I really don't think I understand the hardon everyone has for warp core stabs. Maybe it is because I don't run into many stabbed ships, or maybe it is because I don't care and am the type to spite-close plexes if someone bails from it. But seriously, who cares how the dude is fit? If someone doesn't want to fight you, they wont. It doesn't matter how many rules and conditions you put in the way, that is just a plain and simple fact. Most of EVE is trying to find a way to make people who don't want to fight you stand their ground. If you want to hunt stabbed ships all day long, then fit your ship to do that. If you don't want to gimp your fit to be able to catch stabbed hulls, then quit complaining because they obviously aren't that big of a problem for you. After all, if a system has active occupants stabbed ships can't really do much harm. Its nothing to do with their desire to fight or not. Stabs enable a reduced level of attention that needs to be payed to multiple farming accounts. That increases chances of people tackling before the alt notices the danger. Stabs just allow the alt to peace out in many scenarios, thus not penalising the lower level of situational awareness. If stabs are removed, it doesnt stop people from afk farming, it just increases the penalty for doing so. This is coming from someone who has been known to use stabbed alts from time to time.
Fourteen Maken The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Enemy Spotted. 165	Posted - 2015.06.10 13:04:43 - [25] - Quote I hate saying this because I want more new players to come do faction war but I am sick to death of all trial toons stab farming in faction war like pro's, it's so obvious these are not new players but farming alts and I don't see any way to stop it except keeping trial toons out of faction war altogether. When they have plexed their accounts, that's fine let them use stabs/nano's what ever i dont care it's their game, but corps are abusing free trial accounts to deplex systems and keep sov and it's making a mockery of the warzone mechanics. I've tried hunting them by fitting 2 scrams and had some joy but these are not new players, they scan gates before warping to them, they mwd over 30km off the warp in when they enter a plex and they are always ready to warp out as soon as you go in.
Aerasia Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.06.10 13:43:44 - [26] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: these are not new players, they scan gates before warping to them, they mwd over 30km off the warp in when they enter a plex and they are always ready to warp out as soon as you go in. Sounds like plexing SOP to me. Learning how to survive a trip into FW takes 20 minutes of Google/forum-fu. Learning how to actually fight that lone Navy Comet pilot takes months of SP grinding and more months of actual combat practice. And somehow we're surprised when a < 1Y toon is "run away fit".
Moth Eisig 95	Posted - 2015.06.10 14:56:08 - [27] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: these are not new players, they scan gates before warping to them, they mwd over 30km off the warp in when they enter a plex and they are always ready to warp out as soon as you go in. I did all those things when I had been in the game less than a month. It doesn't take a genius to learn those tricks.
Ares Desideratus GUILD OF DOOM MOOD UBER SWAG ETERNAL 260	Posted - 2015.06.10 15:03:28 - [28] - Quote It's a sandbox. Be the change you want to see.
Syrilian Ascending Angels Two Drink Minimum 105	Posted - 2015.06.10 21:09:56 - [29] - Quote Ares Desideratus wrote: It's a sandbox. Be the change you want to see. This. There is nothing wrong mechanically wrong with Faction Warfare. The only thing that would be nice, but not a necessity is to make neutrals unable to go within 30k of a plex. It just makes thematic sense to me to only allow faction fights in faction warfare. But I don't consider the system as is now broken.
Fourteen Maken The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Enemy Spotted. 166	Posted - 2015.06.15 12:37:33 - [30] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: these are not new players, they scan gates before warping to them, they mwd over 30km off the warp in when they enter a plex and they are always ready to warp out as soon as you go in. Sounds like plexing SOP to me. Learning how to survive a trip into FW takes 20 minutes of Google/forum-fu. Learning how to actually fight that lone Navy Comet pilot takes months of SP grinding and more months of actual combat practice. And somehow we're surprised when a < 1Y toon is "run away fit". I have no problem with genuine newbs coming down and farming plexes with the sole objective of staying alive. There's too much of a knowledge/skill gap to expect them to go toe to toe with vets in pvp, and this is a good way for them to ease into low sec: they learn how to stay alive, they get to see the tactics and ships people use, they get to meet other players and join in fleets all while their skills are training. They don't make that much more isk than they would mining in high sec, and it takes more concentration so it's not worthwhile to plex an account just to farm LP when there are better things to do with an alt... which is why I say let them use stabs/nano whatever, but only plexed accounts in faction war please. Free trial toons are being abused to affect warzone control, it would be better for everyone if this wasn't an option because the way things are going we'll all have to start doing it just to keep up. EDIT: It's mostly being used by LP farmers because they get free ISK without having to plex an account since an unskilled toon in an empty frig is just as good at it as a full skilled toon in a pirate frig. If they had to plex their accounts it wouldn't be worth their while.

Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1449	Posted - 2015.06.15 13:36:03 - [31] - Quote Can trial accounts join faction war? I dont believe they can.
Yolocious Swag University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.06.15 14:09:16 - [32] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Can trial accounts join faction war? I dont believe they can. They can for a few months now. I believe it was in the same patch they made the skill queue unlimited.
Doctor Knuckles Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 117	Posted - 2015.06.15 14:45:04 - [33] - Quote Aerasia wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: these are not new players, they scan gates before warping to them, they mwd over 30km off the warp in when they enter a plex and they are always ready to warp out as soon as you go in. Sounds like plexing SOP to me. Learning how to survive a trip into FW takes 20 minutes of Google/forum-fu. Learning how to actually fight that lone Navy Comet pilot takes months of SP grinding and more months of actual combat practice. And somehow we're surprised when a < 1Y toon is "run away fit". You definately don't need 1y of training to kill that comet pilot. I would say in a couple months you have all the skills you need to blap it easily if you bring the right tool for the job (i know i did), in 4-5 you can be pretty much on par with a all lvl V in a frig, I know i was. But you keep saying that you need more than a year over and over, here and in the thread you opened, despite multiple people telling you otherwise. Stop making excuses for your losses, toughen up and learn, or stop going solo.
Fourteen Maken The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Enemy Spotted. 166	Posted - 2015.06.15 15:38:35 - [34] - Quote Yolocious Swag wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Can trial accounts join faction war? I dont believe they can. They can for a few months now. I believe it was in the same patch they made the skill queue unlimited. Yes, but they were always able to join via a fw corp anyway, it's just now they can go straight into the npc militia on their own. It's got to the point where a lot of the solo plexers I come across are a few weeks old, they're in both galmil and calmil and I'm sure it's the same players farming for both sides. If someone wants to plex an alt and use it to farm LP for isk, or deplex their home systems that's fair enough I don't care, it's just the free trial accounts that need removed. Also it would be better for brawlers if the rat was replaced by a structure that spawns on the warp in. It can respawn or regenerate every few minutes and have the same tank stats as the existing rats, it just means brawlers don't have to move away from the beacon to blap it every few minutes.
Pestilen Ratte Artimus Ratte 24	Posted - 2015.06.29 08:44:10 - [35] - Quote I think we should be talking more about large scale changes to faction warfare, and not waste too much time worrying about stabbed caldari freaks. As others have noted, CCP is on a mission to save Null Sov just now, so they don't have a lot of time or attention for FW. But, when they do, I think those guys are capable of making big changes, if there is a good reason to make a change. As I see it, the biggest threat to FW is a lack of fights, or more exactly a high time to fight ratio of investment payoff. I was in hospital earlier this year, and it is easy to play Eve when you have nothing else to do. Now our corp has new members from real life, and they add up the hours spent on the game and compare it to the fights they get. Rather than *** and moan (I like to *** and moan) about issues, maybe we should consider the metric of "time/fights" when we consider the changes we would like to see made. If the ratio goes down, new players are going to enjoy the game and stick with it, and bitter vets might take a bit longer to grow bitter. In my view, we need a new set of mechanics that allow squads to find roughly matched squads to fight in a quick and easy manner. The plea system is good, and I don't think it needs replacing, but at the same time it rewards players with LP and isk. It doesn't reward players with pew, per se. You show me the incentive, I will show you the outcome. We who want pew, and not isk, need CCP to make the incentive winning battles, not earning isk. Then people who want that incentive will participate, and stabbed freaks will go back to winning asteroids with bears in high sec. Or whatever it is that they do for isk. In my opinion, CCP need to build a group mission mechanic for FW. They have sort of done this with incursions, but this is PVE based mission running. It is not designed around PVP faction warfare. If we stick to the lore, Faction Navy ships (NPC) can fit black ops jump drives. We could have special FW navy missions where the mission is to be hot dropped into a random FW DED spot by an NPC battleship. These special NPC BS could be configured to warp tech 1 and navy ships only, and they would be limited in the number (total mass) of ships they could drop. The other faction, using the same mechanic, could also drop the same total mass of fleet to the same location. If the drops were synchronised, you would get neat FW squads fights of roughly equal sizes very quickly. Squads would just need to form up at the nominated point, at the appointed time. It is exactly the same as with current missions, except that two sets of missions, on either side, are being synchronised. Eve is a fantastic game, but roaming for long periods without fights is not attractive to new players.
Arla Sarain 526	Posted - 2015.06.29 11:08:59 - [36] - Quote Syrilian wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: It's a sandbox. Be the change you want to see. This. There is nothing wrong mechanically wrong with Faction Warfare. Farmers can be handled. In 150m isk ships. Plant recons to capture them on gates. Cov-ops ships can also be used to some extent, but the amount of effort and the assets that you put at risk - it's just not reasonable. I think Crosi Wesdo used the appropriate vocabulary when saying that stabbed plexing promotes reduced attention level because at any sign of danger one can just leave. But thats not all. How can FW not be mechanically broken when the current plex mechanics REWARD blue-balling, outside of say, system pushes? Currently, you cap the plex as far as possible and in the event that an aggressor appears you blueball him. The plex conflict is in the farmers favour, the new occupant has to run the timer an extended duration to cap it, and in the event he wants to fight you, you have no motivation to stay. You can be Moglarr, and close abandoned plexes out of principle, but do you seriously have the persistence to keep doing that repeatedly? The persistence is in the favour of the farmer. There is also the misconception that in FW you earn ISK while you PVP, which is strictly not true. It's all or nothing. You either do one or the other - you close a plex (PVP victory or uninterrupted) and enjoy the LP reward, or you leave the plex (eviction or hull loss) and lose time, the value of which is the plex value (unless we're miners and our time is free). Doing these over a long period people get into the habit of accepting a false perception in which they average the time spent on various activities and say "roughly I earn at the same time as I PvP". A newbie considering FW will accept the meaning of the statement literally. But over time realise that it's actually a waste to stay and fight, and its better to obtain a large capital prior to indulging into PvP. So there is no real motivation to stay and fight for your plex, unless you are pushing a system (in which you have opportunities to forgo capping certain plexs all together anyway), and its actually more bang for the buck to avoid fights. Worse yet, the system rewards that. Counter intuitive to the main intention of FW, is it not?
Syrilian Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2015.06.29 14:35:30 - [37] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: Syrilian wrote: Ares Desideratus wrote: It's a sandbox. Be the change you want to see. This. There is nothing wrong mechanically wrong with Faction Warfare. Farmers can be handled. In 150m isk ships. Plant recons to capture them on gates. Cov-ops ships can also be used to some extent, but the amount of effort and the assets that you put at risk - it's just not reasonable. I think Crosi Wesdo used the appropriate vocabulary when saying that stabbed plexing promotes reduced attention level because at any sign of danger one can just leave. But thats not all. How can FW not be mechanically broken when the current plex mechanics REWARD blue-balling, outside of say, system pushes? Currently, you cap the plex as far as possible and in the event that an aggressor appears you blueball him. The plex conflict is in the farmers favour, the new occupant has to run the timer an extended duration to cap it, and in the event he wants to fight you, you have no motivation to stay. You can be Moglarr, and close abandoned plexes out of principle, but do you seriously have the persistence to keep doing that repeatedly? The persistence is in the favour of the farmer. There is also the misconception that in FW you earn ISK while you PVP, which is strictly not true. It's all or nothing. You either do one or the other - you close a plex (PVP victory or uninterrupted) and enjoy the LP reward, or you leave the plex (eviction or hull loss) and lose time, the value of which is the plex value (unless we're miners and our time is free). Doing these over a long period people get into the habit of accepting a false perception in which they average the time spent on various activities and say "roughly I earn at the same time as I PvP". A newbie considering FW will accept the meaning of the statement literally. But over time realise that it's actually a waste to stay and fight, and its better to obtain a large capital prior to indulging into PvP. So there is no real motivation to stay and fight for your plex, unless you are pushing a system (in which you have opportunities to forgo capping certain plexs all together anyway), and its actually more bang for the buck to avoid fights. Worse yet, the system rewards that. Counter intuitive to the main intention of FW, is it not? I do agree with the concept that FW lends itself to a split mentality of plex or fight. I know on the days I need to make LP, I tend to runaway alot more than when I don't need it. I think that can be easily fixed though by just significantly increasing the LP payout for killing enemy militia. The issue I see is that there can never be a perfect system in regards to FW. If you create a system in which one is forced to fight, you will be forcing people into alot of unfair fights. Which is counter intuitive in teaching new players PVP in EVE. Alot of success in PVP comes from knowing engagement profiles; what fights you should take and when you should run. Even veterans with a bajillion SP and massive amounts of skill still have that mentality. I think it is unavoidable that if you have a bunch of newbies in a PVP system you are going to have alot of them running away from most fights because they simply can't win most fights. And forcing them to continuously sacrifice their ships to the ship gods isn't fun for them.
Moglarr Operation Meatshield 104	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:06:44 - [38] - Quote Pestilen Ratte wrote: tl;dr So, I had another "wat" moment skimming this. You have trouble finding fights in FW? M80, if that is the case you're doing FW wrong. Plain and simple. Yes sometimes you need to jump a few gates, or hang out in a plex. But if you do it in the right system a fight will often come to you before you plex closes. As an added bonus, if someone doesn't come to chase you out of your plex you get paid. Paid ISK to literally look for a fight by sitting in an enemy system and shitting up local. That is bad ass! In relation to you "more PVE plz" I point out that running a plex is pretty PVE. It also has the added bonus of contesting or defending a system, which ups the odds that other people are going to want to stop you from doing that. Arla Sarain wrote: tl;dr Dude. You don't need to drop 150 million ISK on a recon ship to deal with a dplexing venture. A derp merlin will do just fine. Chase the farmer away, close his plex and op success. I only bother to close plexes on principle in systems I have chosen to actively defend. If you do not care enough about a system to properly defend it, then don't claim you do while not defending it. If you're only looking to gank a fool, then say that. There is nothing wrong with that. I also know for a fact that I can easily earn enough ISK to keep myself fighting while doing the things that generate fights. The oplexes I cap plus the small amount of LP from kills keeps enough LP coming in to easily maintain all of my losses every month. And I've had months where I lost over 1 billion in ****! So no, it is not a misconception. It is a fact in FW doing the things that generate fights will also provide an income stream for you. The motivation to stay and fight for your plex is not for the pay day, although I will admit it can be nice, you stay and fight because making space violence happen is fun. The LP is the added bonus, think of it as the game saying "no one came to fight you, have some ISK champ you're awesome." On the note of a "split mentality" in FW. That is for individual corporations to decide how dedicated to combat they want to be. If you don't like how risk averse one group is, then join a better one. Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1366	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:22:53 - [39] - Quote When CCP started fw there was no monetary gain from capturing plexes. I think they assumed people would fight for plexes and territory because it was fun. And it wasn't a bad assumption. At times people did this and had fun. The idea was you would get isk to fight for your faction. It wasn't that you would fight for a faction to get isk. But by and large plexing and fighting for territory became of little importance. So players said we need rewards/consequences for plexing and then that will fix everything. So now we have consequences. Yet again after the dust settles we see that winning the actual occupancy war (outside of your home system or occasionally to get a medal) is of little importance to the average fw player. Conclusion: adding consequences to a dull game will not make it better. And along the way ccp has adjusted the npcs in all sorts of ways. They made them weaker and stronger and required them to be killed etc. But fiddling with the npcs will never make fw occupancy a fun pvp game. There was a time when npcs were stupid powerful and discouraged pvp but at least that is over with. I don't think tweaking npcs will change much. The only thing ccp has never done is give the players more tools so that they can fight for plexes throughout the war zone. Intel tools so players can know where plexes are being taken real time and therefore effectively cover a larger territory was something CCP said it would do, but never actually did. This combined with a timer rollback system is what faction war always needed. Get the blobs out of the same hot spots and get more quick small gang action spread throughout the war zone. But somehow these changes that would better place the fighting into the hands of pvpers never made it through. Why doesn't anyone care about systems? Because the game of gaining occupancy is not fun. Alts in plexes is boring but it's how you gain the most vp. (I said vp not lp) Make it fun by giving pvpers better tools to fight for their territory and you make the occupancy war game fun. Once the game is fun people will care. In the meantime we will have the occasional blob a home system campaign spread out by lolplexing. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1468	Posted - 2015.06.29 20:55:17 - [40] - Quote As has been said before, anyone with any experience already knows where plexes are being run. And the negative portrayal you always make of FW is based on a 2 year old bias when FW was truly broken.

Bienator II madmen of the skies 3333	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:14:12 - [41] - Quote Moglarr wrote: I really don't think I understand the hardon everyone has for warp core stabs. Maybe it is because I don't run into many stabbed ships, or maybe it is because I don't care and am the type to spite-close plexes if someone bails from it. But seriously, who cares how the dude is fit? if you are neutral you don't care. but if you are in FW and base out of a FW system you do care. let me try to explain that. you trade your time 1:1 with a farmer alt to maintain your docking rights. If a farmer alt is 30s in a plex of your system, you have to stay there too for 30s to undo the contesting. There is no way around that. So you either fight farmers with farmers, hunt farmers down or base outside of the warzone. 1 stabbed farmer is no content, it removes content. since you have to wait the same time he waited in a plex, while he is waiting in the next system. It locks 2 players into waiting mode. Thats why a conflict averse sov system is a bad sov system. FAQ: #1 i don't care about sov so why should i care about plex farmers? you shouldn't. in this case they are harmless and don't influence you in any way, don't waste your time with them. The kill is not worth it. #2 i do care about docking rights since i like the idea of arcade-like nullsec light in lowsec well in this case you will have to chase them out of the plexes, and waste your time with deplexing in one way or the other #3 are FW mission farmers as bad as plex farmers? no, nobody cares about mission farmers since they don't influence sov. If you are neutral you might care for them because they drop at least covops cloaks, so go for it. #4 is there a fix for that? yes but ccp doesn't want to implement it how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Arla Sarain 527	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:43:23 - [42] - Quote Would like separate timers for plexs for each respective faction. And would like an improved Insurance system for smaller ships for militia participants - short duration and high payout, encouraging you to fight and potentially lose the ship. Can't be arsed to justify either of these atm.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 647	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:55:58 - [43] - Quote Bienator II wrote: Moglarr wrote: I really don't think I understand the hardon everyone has for warp core stabs. Maybe it is because I don't run into many stabbed ships, or maybe it is because I don't care and am the type to spite-close plexes if someone bails from it. But seriously, who cares how the dude is fit? if you are neutral you don't care. but if you are in FW and base out of a FW system you do care. let me try to explain that. you trade your time 1:1 with a farmer alt to maintain your docking rights. If a farmer alt is 30s in a plex of your system, you have to stay there too for 30s to undo the contesting. There is no way around that. So you either fight farmers with farmers, hunt farmers down or base outside of the warzone. 1 stabbed farmer is no content, it removes content. since you have to wait the same time he waited in a plex, while he is waiting in the next system. It locks 2 players into waiting mode. Thats why a conflict averse sov system is a bad sov system. FAQ: #1 i don't care about sov so why should i care about plex farmers? you shouldn't. in this case they are harmless and don't influence you in any way, don't waste your time with them. The kill is not worth it. #2 i do care about docking rights since i like the idea of arcade-like nullsec light in lowsec well in this case you will have to chase them out of the plexes, and waste your time with deplexing in one way or the other #3 are FW mission farmers as bad as plex farmers? no, nobody cares about mission farmers since they don't influence sov. If you are neutral you might care for them because they drop at least covops cloaks, so go for it. #4 is there a fix for that? yes but ccp doesn't want to implement it Farmers running plexes causes systems to flip??? When did this change?? And here I thought you had to kill the iHub. Who knew all this time I was doing it wrong? /sarcasm
Pestilen Ratte Artimus Ratte 25	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:05:38 - [44] - Quote Moglarr wrote: arrogant rubbish signposted with the moron hashtag: tl:dr. Thanks for your contribution. Look, I deal with unfortunate people very day. It is extremely unfair that people who can't read well suffer huge disadvantages in life. As an older person with some experience, let me me offer you some very sincere, very well intentioned advice: Try not to use the moron hashtag, "tl:dr". Telling other people that you are a slow reader who celebrates a state of ignorance is only going to lift the value of your stock in environments where you really do not wish to remain. Only very stupid people with low self esteem will appreciate the sentiment, and only they will want to stand next to you. And even they will lack respect for you, because nobody respects an ignorant person who reads slowly and gives up on learning. It is especially weird to use this tribal marking on yourself when you are posting on a forum about space ship wars. If you are short of reading time, why are you here? But, look, do as you think is best. Everybody needs to belong somewhere, and there but for the grace of god go I.
Pestilen Ratte Artimus Ratte 25	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:16:08 - [45] - Quote Cearain wrote: .... Why doesn't anyone care about systems? Because the game of gaining occupancy is not fun. Alts in plexes is boring but it's how you gain the most vp. (I said vp not lp) Make it fun by giving pvpers better tools to fight for their territory and you make the occupancy war game fun. Once the game is fun people will care. I agree with what you've written, especially this last bit. I asked the guys in the militia channel why we don;t have better rewards for killing enemy pilots, and they pointed out that i this were the case, farmers would just kill their own alts from the other side and exploit the system that way. So that is a thing. No matter how we use "rewards", if the rewards are attractive to farmers, farmers will exploit them. But so what? I'm not sure that farmers in stabbed ships are the problem. The problem, for my corp, is the number of minutes needed to get into a fight. If that went down, do we care how many stabbed freaks are doing their thing, working for 2 cents a hour earning isk? No. We don't care. We only care about the minutes to fight ratio. Because that is what MAKES THE GAME FUN. To improve that metric, CCP are going to need to think about that metric. Ask not what your subscriber can do for you, ask what you can do to lower the number of minutes it takes for a pilot, or group of pilots, to find a fight with other like minded players.
May Arethusa PillowBrigade Inc 33	Posted - 2015.06.30 14:10:13 - [46] - Quote Pestilen Ratte wrote: But so what? I'm not sure that farmers in stabbed ships are the problem. The problem, for my corp, is the number of minutes needed to get into a fight. If that went down, do we care how many stabbed freaks are doing their thing, working for 2 cents a hour earning isk? No. We don't care. We only care about the minutes to fight ratio. Because that is what MAKES THE GAME FUN. So you go on a roam, and you find a tristan in a novice, an algos in a small, and a vexor in a medium. One runs, two are stabbed. All three are farmers and have increased your time to fight ratio. Repeat for evey other system you visit. You can't simply ignore them when attempting to discuss FW, or FW mechanics, or PvP within the warzone. Honestly, this is a situation we've created ourselves. A faction's tier became its greatest weapon, a fact exasperated by the recruitment drives of militias promising easy isk in exchange for plexing power. It was only a matter of time before it blew up in our faces. Which is roughly where we're at right now, begging for mechanics to be changed to clean up our mess. People often call FW null-lite, and it's pretty much what we've created; a dead region where people grow fat on isk/lp while avoiding shooting each other, with occasional interference from neutral parties.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1366	Posted - 2015.06.30 14:14:21 - [47] - Quote We tend to agree on allot. There are many eve players and former eve players who agree that the long waits for quality pvp encounters are a huge drawback to the game. I recopied your proposal below so people can see it again. I think it is at least worth discussing. First let me try to spell out a possible structure to what you say and tell me if I get it wrong. I think you are basically saying that faction war could give people the option to fight several battles similar to the alliance tournament fights. Lets call them super plexes and say they are worth ?15? plexes as far as sov. So each side goes to an agent and based on their standing or whatever they could form a fleet for a novice, small medium or large "superplex." They would assign ships points and the npc battlship could drop that size fleet into the super plex. The guy getting the super plex will have the people in his fleet and when he has it he will get his fleet dropped into the random plex. Novice plex would have a lower point maximum. (again think of the points like the alliance tournament). Now both sides will appear in the plex at the same time and it will be a relatively random system in fw. Other players from faction war (or neutrals) could go in the plex to help after they jump in but the fight can start immediately and neither side will know which system they are being dropped into until they are there. (its like a top secret mission) CCP can mess with the point system from time to time. etc. They can limit logi or ewar ships just like they do in the alliance tournament. There are some things that might be a problem with this idea but those problems might not be insurmountable. For example alts in the enemy militia might just accept these missions and bail out to help their own militia. Will this happen allot? I doubt it if the rewards are not that big. Perhaps it will count toward sov but not give more lp. In any event the rewards can be adjusted to discourage that behavior. People who like the current system would not need to participate in these fights. Another advantage is that it might limit the efficacy of booster alts. Because your t3 will not warp there immediately. It could come later but at least the beginning of the fight won't have that. Ok I admit I am not 100% sure about it but it seems like a decent idea. Certainly worth considering. For those who hate it, they could keep doing there normal thing in eve if they want. I would say they could even do this just for the fights - no lp and no vp. (that would also discourage the alt behavior) Pestilen Ratte wrote: I think we should be talking more about large scale changes to faction warfare, and not waste too much time worrying about stabbed caldari freaks. As others have noted, CCP is on a mission to save Null Sov just now, so they don't have a lot of time or attention for FW. But, when they do, I think those guys are capable of making big changes, if there is a good reason to make a change. As I see it, the biggest threat to FW is a lack of fights, or more exactly a high time to fight ratio of investment payoff. I was in hospital earlier this year, and it is easy to play Eve when you have nothing else to do. Now our corp has new members from real life, and they add up the hours spent on the game and compare it to the fights they get. Rather than *** and moan (I like to *** and moan) about issues, maybe we should consider the metric of "time/fights" when we consider the changes we would like to see made. If the ratio goes down, new players are going to enjoy the game and stick with it, and bitter vets might take a bit longer to grow bitter. In my view, we need a new set of mechanics that allow squads to find roughly matched squads to fight in a quick and easy manner. The plea system is good, and I don't think it needs replacing, but at the same time it rewards players with LP and isk. It doesn't reward players with pew, per se. You show me the incentive, I will show you the outcome. We who want pew, and not isk, need CCP to make the incentive winning battles, not earning isk. Then people who want that incentive will participate, and stabbed freaks will go back to winning asteroids with bears in high sec. Or whatever it is that they do for isk. In my opinion, CCP need to build a group mission mechanic for FW. They have sort of done this with incursions, but this is PVE based mission running. It is not designed around PVP faction warfare. If we stick to the lore, Faction Navy ships (NPC) can fit black ops jump drives. We could have special FW navy missions where the mission is to be hot dropped into a random FW DED spot by an NPC battleship. These special NPC BS could be configured to warp tech 1 and navy ships only, and they would be limited in the number (total mass) of ships they could drop. The other faction, using the same mechanic, could also drop the same total mass of fleet to the same location. If the drops were synchronised, you would get neat FW squads fights of roughly equal sizes very quickly. Squads would just need to form up at the nominated point, at the appointed time. It is exactly the same as with current missions, except that two sets of missions, on either side, are being synchronised. Eve is a fantastic game, but roaming for long periods without fights is not attractive to new players. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1469	Posted - 2015.06.30 19:42:20 - [48] - Quote The long waits for pvp engagements are really more of an indication of your ability to get fights rather than the potential fights out there. You admit yourself, over and over, that you have no idea where to go to get fights, or complain that the fights you find are not exactly the ones you are looking for, or people might be using boosts, or its too far etc. Perhaps you should appreciate the hunt as part of the game.
Moglarr Operation Meatshield 107	Posted - 2015.06.30 20:01:41 - [49] - Quote Pestilen Ratte wrote: #words M8, you seem mad. Didn't I respond to the points you raised in the post that I snipped out due to length? Or did you see the tl;dr and get butt mad and then not read anything? Also, as an aside, that is not a hashtag. There needs to be a # and then words for that, as demonstrated in the bit I quoted you. Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1366	Posted - 2015.06.30 20:27:16 - [50] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: [Untrue part of the post deleted] Perhaps you should appreciate the hunt as part of the game. Some people like hunting but it really isn't for me. Sit around all day waiting for a deer to wander by and shoot it. Sorry I have no time for that and for me it sounds very dull. I would rather a game that models spaceship warfare as opposed to hunting. That's why I joined faction warfare. I want to be constantly sent into battle. I think the EVE can accommodate both styles of play. I'm not saying take away mechanics that people use to hunt. Eve has allot of options for people who like to hunt and have the time for that. (and they are all good for those who like that sort of thing) I'm just suggesting that ccp should add some mechanics for people who find wandering and hunting boring. Some people want more quality pvp for the time they are online. But anyway your opinion that there are already "plenty" of quality pvp fights in eve is a controversial one at best. Maybe you think more quality pvp fights would be a bad thing, but at least acknowledge many people disagree. There are allot of players who would like more quality pvp for the time they spend online. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1469	Posted - 2015.06.30 21:09:30 - [51] - Quote Cearain wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: [Untrue part of the post deleted] Perhaps you should appreciate the hunt as part of the game. Some people like hunting but it really isn't for me. Sit around all day waiting for a deer to wander by and shoot it. Sorry I have no time for that and for me it sounds very dull. I would rather a game that models spaceship warfare as opposed to hunting. That's why I joined faction warfare. I want to be constantly sent into battle. I think the EVE can accommodate both styles of play. I'm not saying take away mechanics that people use to hunt. Eve has allot of options for people who like to hunt and have the time for that. (and they are all good for those who like that sort of thing) I'm just suggesting that ccp should add some mechanics for people who find wandering and hunting boring. Some people want more quality pvp for the time they are online. But anyway your opinion that there are already "plenty" of quality pvp fights in eve is a controversial one at best. Maybe you think more quality pvp fights would be a bad thing, but at least acknowledge many people disagree. There are allot of players who would like more quality pvp for the time they spend online. So rather than find a game you like you would like to make eve do things that it was not meant to do?
Kaivar Lancer Placid Peace Corps 622	Posted - 2015.06.30 22:15:01 - [52] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: The long waits for pvp engagements are really more of an indication of your ability to get fights rather than the potential fights out there. I agree. Factors in attracting fights + Fly T1s + Solo + Poor combat record + Reputation for standing your ground + Be a pirate There's a legendary poker player, Doyle Brunson, who'd deliberately change his playing style so that he'd play sub-optimally. In the short-term, he'd lose a bit of money to other players. In the long-term, he earned a reputation for creating action, and got more games as a result. If he was a 100% winning player, no one would've played with him.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1366	Posted - 2015.07.01 02:58:01 - [53] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Cearain wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: [Untrue part of the post deleted] Perhaps you should appreciate the hunt as part of the game. Some people like hunting but it really isn't for me. Sit around all day waiting for a deer to wander by and shoot it. Sorry I have no time for that and for me it sounds very dull. I would rather a game that models spaceship warfare as opposed to hunting. That's why I joined faction warfare. I want to be constantly sent into battle. I think the EVE can accommodate both styles of play. I'm not saying take away mechanics that people use to hunt. Eve has allot of options for people who like to hunt and have the time for that. (and they are all good for those who like that sort of thing) I'm just suggesting that ccp should add some mechanics for people who find wandering and hunting boring. Some people want more quality pvp for the time they are online. But anyway your opinion that there are already "plenty" of quality pvp fights in eve is a controversial one at best. Maybe you think more quality pvp fights would be a bad thing, but at least acknowledge many people disagree. There are allot of players who would like more quality pvp for the time they spend online. So rather than find a game you like you would like to make eve do things that it was not meant to do? Do you have a dev blog to support your claim that eve is only meant for "hunting" and not spaceship warfare? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 174	Posted - 2015.07.01 03:28:55 - [54] - Quote Pestilen Ratte wrote: Moglarr wrote: arrogant rubbish signposted with the moron hashtag: tl:dr. Thanks for your contribution. Look, I deal with unfortunate people very day. It is extremely unfair that people who can't read well suffer huge disadvantages in life. As an older person with some experience, let me me offer you some very sincere, very well intentioned advice: Try not to use the moron hashtag, "tl:dr". Telling other people that you are a slow reader who celebrates a state of ignorance is only going to lift the value of your stock in environments where you really do not wish to remain. Only very stupid people with low self esteem will appreciate the sentiment, and only they will want to stand next to you. And even they will lack respect for you, because nobody respects an ignorant person who reads slowly and gives up on learning. It is especially weird to use this tribal marking on yourself when you are posting on a forum about space ship wars. If you are short of reading time, why are you here? But, look, do as you think is best. Everybody needs to belong somewhere, and there but for the grace of god go I. if you want fights go to tama, where moglarr is living (and a lot of pirates). he'll probably undock for you. Just Add Water
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1470	Posted - 2015.07.01 09:01:27 - [55] - Quote Cearain wrote: Do you have a dev blog to support your claim that eve is only meant for "hunting" and not spaceship warfare? I think its generally accepted that eve is supposed to be a little harder than other games. Giving you pings as to the location of everyone running a plex takes the job of intel gathering out of the players hands and would simply encourage people to stay docked and wait rather than being proactive in creating content. It would also mean a small group of 2-3 people could fly around and deny every solo plexer in the area with a little too mch efficiency. I also remember you asking for ship types and player names on top of the plex pings. On top of that im sure you will then ask for imaginary players to go and defend plexes too. Since it doesnt matter how many pings you get about it, no one is ever gong to care about some russian running a plex in Mantenault when theres a dozen targets between you and there in systems that people have chosen to care about. Welcome back to the forums, i look forward to banging my head agaist the same point for the next 3 months.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1366	Posted - 2015.07.01 15:11:08 - [56] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Cearain wrote: Do you have a dev blog to support your claim that eve is only meant for "hunting" and not spaceship warfare? I think its generally accepted that eve is supposed to be a little harder than other games. Giving you pings as to the location of everyone running a plex takes the job of intel gathering out of the players hands and would simply encourage people to stay docked and wait rather than being proactive in creating content. Consider a few points: First, thanks for making a constructive post that actually addresses the mechanics. If you continue to post constructive posts that address the actual ideas, I will respond. I hope you don't revert to ad hominem attacks that ignore the actual proposals. Second, you seem to think that adding data and intel makes eve easier. But since both you and your enemy get the intel it does not make the war easier. It actually makes it richer and more complex. The more data each side has means that there will be more ways to use that data if you are smart. Look at the other extreme. If you have no data then you just bring your biggest fleet you can and hope for the best. No data turns eve into a dice game. And most dice games are not very complex or strategically rich. More data/intel means more tools smart players can use to gain an edge. Third, it is clear that the players can not (or are not willing to) scout the war zone without more available tools. We can blame the players all we want but that is not really good game design. There are reasons why players are not fighting for most of the territory. Those reasons are that it is dull and tedious work as opposed to fun and enriching game play. The fact that ccp bases the consequences of tiers on all the systems in the warzone show at least some intent on their part that players will actually try to capture and hold the territory. It's clear that is not working as intended. I don't know what you mean players will stay docked. Ever since fw came out there have been plenty of people starting threads like this one because fw occupancy is not delivering/decided by the hoped for pvp. This is a problem for the entire game not just faction war. It seems to me that better tools to help players find quality fights will lead to more players resubbing and undocking. Undocking to "roam" around hoping to stumble onto a random good fight gets old for a lot of people. Crosi Wesdo wrote: It would also mean a small group of 2-3 people could fly around and deny every solo plexer in the area with a little too mch efficiency. I fly solo as much as just about anyone. I would love it if more groups of 2-3 came to try to disrupt my plexing. Its not because I am good enough to fight 2-3 at a time (at least not in the same ship class) But because the plex mechanics make it easy to split them up. If they come in 2 destroyers and a frig I can jump in a novice. If they come in 2 frigs and a destroyer I can jump in a destroyer and hope I get some advantage due to them landing on me. I can also ship up to a cruiser and do mediums. You see what will happen is logistics (and I don't mean guardians but rather supplies of ships) will become important again. Where you have ships and whether you have them close by will be important. This will add a whole level of strategy that the current mechanics do not fully embrace. Crosi Wesdo wrote: I also remember you asking for ship types and player names on top of the plex pings. On top of that im sure you will then ask for imaginary players to go and defend plexes too. Since it doesnt matter how many pings you get about it, no one is ever gong to care about some russian running a plex in Mantenault when theres a dozen targets between you and there in systems that people have chosen to care about.. Ok I would just point out you are contradicting yourself. First you say 2-3 people will ruin the solo plexers in the area. And now you say no one will bother with the intel. I just ask that you try to think clearly about this, and make up your mind. I can tell you I would cover a certain area and if an enemy plexes in that area I would go fight him. In the meantime I would sit in a plex and let people know I am there so if they want to fight they know where they can find me. People would come and there would be fights. Allot more fights spread out throughout allot more of the war zone than we currently have in the occupancy war. The kills per vp ratio would increase dramatically. As would the number of quality fights per hour pvpers would get. As far as how much intel would be given I think CCP can tweak with that. Again more intel for both sides means more data they can both use. This does not make the game easier it makes it more complex where the person who can better analyze the data has the advantage of the person who can't. In other words, intel adds complexity and strategy. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1471	Posted - 2015.07.01 15:43:46 - [57] - Quote I have no interest in your reply. I always give clear reasons why your ideas are horrible and and for the most part dont fix anything that is considered a problem at large. Beyond that, you twist what people tell you, accuse people of being on the side of farmers, and ignore entire posts if someone dares to suggest that you are being stupid. I gave you the reasons why notifications will not improve, will bea detriment to active players in space in a number of ways,, and are not even aimed at fixing any of the issues that are still regarded as problems in FW. There is not a chance im going to read your ftl;dr post, ive read your drivel too much already.
Cellini Benvenuto Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 27	Posted - 2015.07.04 17:19:01 - [58] - Quote Just a newbie's point of view, but I'd like FW to be a true 1 v 1 - frigates vs frigates, navy frigs vs navy frigs, dessies vs dessies, no off grid boosts, no fleets, no option to warp out once you are in, no option to d-scan who's in a plex. You enter a plex. It is a fight. you have to fight. The better pilot wins. No farming - no NPCs. Just a plex that is activated when a pilot warps in and stays until there's a fight and a clear winner.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1367	Posted - 2015.07.06 16:13:49 - [59] - Quote Cellini Benvenuto wrote: Just a newbie's point of view, but I'd like FW to be a true 1 v 1 - frigates vs frigates, navy frigs vs navy frigs, dessies vs dessies, no off grid boosts, no fleets, no option to warp out once you are in, no option to d-scan who's in a plex. You enter a plex. It is a fight. you have to fight. The better pilot wins. No farming - no NPCs. Just a plex that is activated when a pilot warps in and stays until there's a fight and a clear winner. There are allot of problems with almost all these suggestions. But one thing I do wish is that the fw plex deadspace area counted like a different system when it came to boosters. If you want the boosts then they would need to enter the plex. I know ccp has technical difficulty making it so they only apply on grid. But I wonder if that is something they could accomplish. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Zen Guerrilla CTRL-Q Spaceship Bebop 351	Posted - 2015.07.06 16:59:58 - [60] - Quote Squatdog wrote: NO STABS IN PLEXES. drops mic and steps away from thread That wouldn't fix a ******* thing. You people just need to man up and deal with farmers. You can not keep them out, you can not force them to fight. What's so hard about accepting that? pew pew

Syrilian Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 120	Posted - 2015.07.06 18:22:54 - [61] - Quote Cellini Benvenuto wrote: Just a newbie's point of view, but I'd like FW to be a true 1 v 1 - frigates vs frigates, navy frigs vs navy frigs, dessies vs dessies, no off grid boosts, no fleets, no option to warp out once you are in, no option to d-scan who's in a plex. You enter a plex. It is a fight. you have to fight. The better pilot wins. No farming - no NPCs. Just a plex that is activated when a pilot warps in and stays until there's a fight and a clear winner. I do like the idea of having a plex that limits the number of ships that can be in it at one time.
Zappity WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 2364	Posted - 2015.07.12 07:55:37 - [62] - Quote CCP Affinity on the tweetfleet slack confirmed suspect flag on plex entry as well as being keen on four-way warfare. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 865	Posted - 2015.07.12 11:19:13 - [63] - Quote This is one approach, an easy one, but definitely needs more tweaking/balancing ... otherwise "positive" sec-status will become meaningless in lowsec as almost everybody is flashy. The root cause is the sec-status hit when engaging a neutral in FW plexes. Making everybody suspect can eliminate the hit, sure, but has a lot of other, not all positive, implications. I'm my own NPC alt.
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 4037	Posted - 2015.07.12 12:26:52 - [64] - Quote Tipa Riot wrote: This is one approach, an easy one, but definitely needs more tweaking/balancing ... otherwise "positive" sec-status will become meaningless in lowsec as almost everybody is flashy. The root cause is the sec-status hit when engaging a neutral in FW plexes. Making everybody suspect can eliminate the hit, sure, but has a lot of other, not all positive, implications. I see the implications but from my point of view they're very positive! Basically it means establishing FW plexes for what they really are: warzones. If you enter, you automatically agree to be a legal target. Personally, I never cared about sec status hits for engaging neutrals. What I like of this proposed change, is that the suspect flag lasts 15 minutes. Meaning that players will be freely attackable at gates and on stations. Assuming the suspect flag is given to militia pilots as well, this will include farmers, for example. More people suspect = more pew. What's not to like? It also makes sense since, as pointed out, they entered a pew-pew zone. Gate and station guns will continue to assist (positive sec) pilots just travelling or PVE-ing in lowsec, which makes perfect sense as well. That's their intended feature, after all. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Moglarr Operation Meatshield 113	Posted - 2015.07.12 17:00:27 - [65] - Quote Has anyone brought up suspect flagging nerds who shoot at their own militia too? Or better yet, fixing the default overview so that all the little militia newblets know that I am not trying to kill them? Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Pestilen Ratte Artimus Ratte 26	Posted - 2015.07.13 06:23:40 - [66] - Quote Kaivar Lancer wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: The long waits for pvp engagements are really more of an indication of your ability to get fights rather than the potential fights out there. I agree. Factors in attracting fights + Fly T1s + Solo + Poor combat record + Reputation for standing your ground + Be a pirate Fair enough.... but.... 1. We fly t1s. Exclusively. 2. Way to get blobbed. Isn't eve a squad game? 3. We had this for a while. Then we killed a t3 dessie with two tristans and now folks avoid us unless they have blob advantage or crazy links. So what to do? Even we can't suck forever. 4. See above. Only works while you are easy prey. 5. Mmmm. There was a time when I would say never. With every passing day, I find myself inclined to hoist the black. One of our guys suggested we go back to Solitude to hunt rats yesterday. What he really meant was "Let's hoist the black and go hunt bears!" We need a mechanic that makes it impossible to know the enemy you face. Otherwise the vain losers with too much time (hello!) will continue to ambush bears and claim that they have some nuts.
Pestilen Ratte Artimus Ratte 26	Posted - 2015.07.13 06:28:56 - [67] - Quote Cearain wrote: Cellini Benvenuto wrote: Just a newbie's point of view, but I'd like FW to be a true 1 v 1 - frigates vs frigates, navy frigs vs navy frigs, dessies vs dessies, no off grid boosts, no fleets, no option to warp out once you are in, no option to d-scan who's in a plex. You enter a plex. It is a fight. you have to fight. The better pilot wins. No farming - no NPCs. Just a plex that is activated when a pilot warps in and stays until there's a fight and a clear winner. There are allot of problems with almost all these suggestions. But one thing I do wish is that the fw plex deadspace area counted like a different system when it came to boosters. If you want the boosts then they would need to enter the plex. I know ccp has technical difficulty making it so they only apply on grid. But I wonder if that is something they could accomplish. The argument that links can't be restricted to grid is complete horse feathers. It is just an outright lie. The real story is that CCP employs people who play the game and who like having unfair advantages because their knopwledge and access to these unfair advantages makes them a big deal in their little worlds. It is pathetic, but here we are. I dislike the culture of dishonesty from CCP, in this case and in other cases. CCP really need to cull their staff, and get rid of the losers. Specifically, the sad young men who drink too much and who still think they hide their weakness by picking on folks. They need to decide whether they are running a serious business or whether they are a finishing school for pathetic nerds in Iceland.
Zappity WiNGSPAN Delivery Services 2365	Posted - 2015.07.13 07:49:04 - [68] - Quote Pestilen Ratte wrote: The argument that links can't be restricted to grid is complete horse feathers. It is just an outright lie. The real story is that CCP employs people who play the game and who like having unfair advantages because their knopwledge and access to these unfair advantages makes them a big deal in their little worlds. CCP has been quite clear about their desire and intent to put links on grid (whether this is the best outcome for small gangs or not). I believe them more than you I'm afraid. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
Arla Sarain 547	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:36:56 - [69] - Quote Weapons/aggression timer for links please.
Yeng Constantine Legion of the Lucid Misfits Ushra'Khan 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:13:45 - [70] - Quote On some points these things should be change: * There should be no aggression timer and Security Status penalty for Militia hitting neutrals on Warzone territory. * Neutrals entering Warzones should automatically have a suspect/criminal status in the overview and Local channels. * Militia status should not change to suspect when hitting suspects/criminal in Warzones. * Neutrals should not be able to see/scan the Militia Outpost on the probe scanner panel. * Neutrals should not be able to warp on Militia Outpost or inside the plex.

Dani Maulerant Order of the Valkyrie LOADED-DICE 26	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:20:58 - [71] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: Weapons/aggression timer for links please. Something I've been repeating as well and fully support. I fly logi and inherit timers, why not links? It's a module designed for combat and offensive purposes. Should come with the accompanying timers for activating a combat-related module.
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 4037	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:39:11 - [72] - Quote Yeng Constantine wrote: * Neutrals should not be able to see/scan the Militia Outpost on the probe scanner panel. * Neutrals should not be able to warp on Militia Outpost or inside the plex. Why? I enjoy fighting neutrals in complexes. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 482	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:24:20 - [73] - Quote Moglarr wrote: Has anyone brought up suspect flagging nerds who shoot at their own militia too? Or better yet, fixing the default overview so that all the little militia newblets know that I am not trying to kill them? We've suggested a default overview pack available for Newbros in the militia channel MOTDs as well as on the FW page, but haven't heard anything from CCP or the CSM on it yet. We have been told that we won't hear details about what Team Space Glitter has in mind until after the CSM summit. It's also worth remembering that there are a limited number of Dev's at CCP so prioritization will likely affect how much stuff they can do.
May Arethusa PillowBrigade Inc 33	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:22:02 - [74] - Quote Both changes favour the farmer, let me know when they change FW in a positive way.
George Gouillot Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 71	Posted - 2015.07.14 07:46:32 - [75] - Quote Pestilen Ratte wrote: Kaivar Lancer wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: The long waits for pvp engagements are really more of an indication of your ability to get fights rather than the potential fights out there. I agree. Factors in attracting fights + Fly T1s + Solo + Poor combat record + Reputation for standing your ground + Be a pirate Fair enough.... but.... 1. We fly t1s. Exclusively. 2. Way to get blobbed. Isn't eve a squad game? 3. We had this for a while. Then we killed a t3 dessie with two tristans and now folks avoid us unless they have blob advantage or crazy links. So what to do? Even we can't suck forever. 4. See above. Only works while you are easy prey. 5. Mmmm. There was a time when I would say never. With every passing day, I find myself inclined to hoist the black. One of our guys suggested we go back to Solitude to hunt rats yesterday. What he really meant was "Let's hoist the black and go hunt bears!" We need a mechanic that makes it impossible to know the enemy you face. Otherwise the vain losers with too much time (hello!) will continue to ambush bears and claim that they have some nuts. Fly a Rifter, if this does not work, fly a Cruor
gustye University of Caille Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.15 16:25:59 - [76] - Quote I recently got back into eve anf FW (i played for a few months during aprocrifilalalas launch and on and off since) and i really like where things are at. After selling everything i own for a enough plexs to get me and a friend going I have been dirt poor but it really doesnt matter. t1 hulls with t1 fits work great and i have been constantly fighting for about two days since i joined, The mechanics have not changed in any significant way apart from LP rewards. From what i have seen you can get some silly rewards but it seems its either one side or the other who can really cash in on the lp, encouraging fourth factioning (forgive me using planetside 2 terminology). The silly money gained from LP should be funding the war effort. it shouldn't be farmed with alts to fund other things (let alone the oposing faction), thats what incusrions are for.
Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 482	Posted - 2015.07.15 17:44:00 - [77] - Quote May Arethusa wrote: Both changes favour the farmer, let me know when they change FW in a positive way. Actually, I expect the newFW missions to be quite a big nerf to mission farmers.
Zen Guerrilla CTRL-Q Spaceship Bebop 351	Posted - 2015.07.15 19:12:59 - [78] - Quote Kill links. They're a cancer in lowsec. It's really all i want. pew pew
Colt Blackhawk Viper-Squad pwn-O-graphy 309	Posted - 2015.07.15 19:53:26 - [79] - Quote Well most people doing fw don-¦t realize what it really is: An isk making machine and nothing else. I was some months in NC last year. Bear bomber hunting was over because every damn second bomber I catched was btchng at me "hey I am NC alt, my main is blue to you". FW is broken like hell and I am happy I got away from it. It is killmail farming for nolifers with links hunting down prey without links. It is isk farming for the cleverer 0.0 boys realizing how idiotic it is to rat for 150mil/h in a 2b carrier instead of using a 4 months old alt in a 30mil bomber and making 200 up to 300mil/h. FW missions need a huge change/income nerf. And yes I have my own bomber alts covering several militias, too. LInks are killing lowsec.... yes I wait until someone comes aka "burn the witch" because I wrote that :P [09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f**** amarr flag and s* on their smoking wrecks.
Arla Sarain 557	Posted - 2015.07.15 21:20:11 - [80] - Quote Colt Blackhawk wrote: Well most people doing fw don-¦t realize what it really is: An isk making machine and nothing else. I was some months in NC last year. Bear bomber hunting was over because every damn second bomber I catched was btchng at me "hey I am NC alt, my main is blue to you". FW is broken like hell and I am happy I got away from it. It is killmail farming for nolifers with links hunting down prey without links. It is isk farming for the cleverer 0.0 boys realizing how idiotic it is to rat for 150mil/h in a 2b carrier instead of using a 4 months old alt in a 30mil bomber and making 200 up to 300mil/h. FW missions need a huge change/income nerf. And yes I have my own bomber alts covering several militias, too. LInks are killing lowsec.... yes I wait until someone comes aka "burn the witch" because I wrote that :P FW doesn't actually make ISK though, no? We get LP that we have to burn on items that then may be resold for liquid ISK, at the discretion of demand. So all we really do is redistribute liquid ISK that somebody else farmed in their carrier, exchanging it for mildly blingy items (which are lost to BLOPS ganks on Marauders/Carriers or in the blobbing of T3Ds and PieFrigs) and consumables (datacores). In any case, I blame it on Minmatar militia. Caldari missions are doable in a bomber, sure, but not with impunity due to the Gall racial EWAR, and with far lower LP/h rates considering the size of our warzone, and the general state of the sovereignty, blocking access to mission agents. Minmatar on the hand enjoy small warzone size making pickups quick, trivial EWAR for any missile user, and favourable loyalty items, as opposed to other factions (RF Shield Extenders, RF Warp Disruptors and Scrams, etc). DELETE MINMATAR SAVE FW

Dani Maulerant Order of the Valkyrie LOADED-DICE 28	Posted - 2015.07.15 21:31:46 - [81] - Quote Changes I'd like to see in FW, and lowsec in general now that the neutrals gaining a timer and a split of the FW ally system are near-confirmed. Some may even be basically repeats of already requested details by many others, but I simply also support. 1) Corp LP Tax Lowsec Corporations, especially pvp dedicated ones have no real way of making isk at corp level. Which can fund a corp hanger to hand out ships for fleets and other ops and newbros. Hisec corps make isk in a myriad of ways, null corps get taxes off ratting and alliance/corp level income off moons. Even during a short stint in WHs we had a manual tax of sorts where as money was paid out after a site, a percentage would first go to corp. 2) Weapons timers for combat related links. Pretty self explanatory. Could be the half measure until a day comes the coding can be fixed for on-grid only boosts. 2.5) Also, put links (and logi) on KMs. They affect the outcome of a fight, show it. Could also help differentiate true solo from link-solo when waving KMs around like a hot shot. 3) FW Ranks meaning something outside RP I have no idea what could be implemented here, but I'm sure brainstorming devs in the offices could figure something. 4) No docking rights in enemy hisec Can't dock in 'contested' enemy held systems, but still can in their regular lowsec, and hisec. Completely stupid. 5) One more sized plex. Battlecruisers need to return. Novice>Small>Medium>Large (BC sized and gated)>Huge or XL (the new 'large', no gate or type limit) 6) FW Ihub changes. Right now, a system's bonuses for FW and level means rather squat. I believe the FW Ihubs should have options to donate LP into to upgrade particular chosen aspects with a system inspired by 0.0 infrastructure/indexes. Such as higher NPC spawning rates to allow regular rat anomalies the non-FW lowsec enjoy. Or to upgrade particular traits of the faction rat defending the plexes to make it harder for enemy to plex such as its dps output, tank, or number of spawns inside. Maybe a discount on LP store items in that system. 7) LP Stores. Why do we need to turn in pirate tags for some items?!
croakroach The Darwin Awards Prize Patrol Internet Space Bullies Alliance 16	Posted - 2015.07.16 01:12:32 - [82] - Quote Dani Maulerant wrote: 4) No docking rights in enemy hisec Can't dock in 'contested' enemy held systems, but still can in their regular lowsec, and hisec. Completely stupid. Agree, this is dumb. If you're in their space, you should be committed to it. Stations allied to their faction should be an exception. SOE, Interbus, Concord, etc along with the neutral Genesis constellation and Derelik.
Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 482	Posted - 2015.07.16 14:16:03 - [83] - Quote Dani Maulerant wrote: Changes I'd like to see in FW, and lowsec in general now that the neutrals gaining a timer and a split of the FW ally system are near-confirmed. Some may even be basically repeats of already requested details by many others, but I simply also support. 1) Corp LP Tax We would love it, but not currently feasible since it's a giant mess. Maybe some day we'll get it, but highly doubtful it'll be done in the next year or two. 2) Weapons timers for combat related links. Been asked for for a long time, though I think maybe if we're lucky they'll go halfway and give em a suspect timer 2.5) Also, put links (and logi) on KMs. They affect the outcome of a fight, show it. Could also help differentiate true solo from link-solo when waving KMs around like a hot shot. Meh, guess it might be nice, not sure how much work it would require. 3) FW Ranks meaning something outside RP Ranks already provide you with a standings bump when you are promoted the first time. Some have asked that it give a standings bump each time you are promoted because repairing standings atm is an absolute ***. 4) No docking rights in enemy hisec Dunno about all the side affects. Another option that should be considered is a buff to Faction Navy NPCs.* 5) One more sized plex. Messing with the plex meta by implementing additional plexes when it is the most functional thing about FW atm seems premature when there are things as broken as FW missions that CCP has already confirmed they will be working on. A BC specific plex shouldn't be considered till after the BC changes, if ever imo. Smaller adjustments like suspect on gates (woot), and maybe persistent plexes through DT will be better first. 6) FW Ihub changes. Might as well call this system upgrades. Right now they suck. 7) LP Stores. Probably won't be touched this year due to amount of time required, but you might want to ask the CSM and CCP. Here is the current little things list off the newfw tweetfleet doc. Keep in mind CCP Affinity already confirmed suspect on gates, newfw missions, and likely a 4 way war, I'm not sure if they will have any time beyond that to pile in more stuff, but it never hurts to ask! The Little Things List: Remove FW standings hits in null sec. Remove purple icon for allied militia - or allied militia should take standings hit if they attack you (or just get rid of allied militia). FW standings eligibility should be applied on individual basis, not on corp basis. Remove faction standings hits for AoE effects (or other weapons) when in same fleet. (or remove standings hits for all AoE weapons everywhere in lowsec) FW overview for newbroGÇÖs in militia MOTD and FW panel. GÇ£Future militia fleet finderGÇ¥ -Fleet finder should have an option that allows FCs to announce future fleet ops to entire militia so that newbros can be ready for a future op rather than log in and hope thereGÇÖs a fleet. Militia-only contracts. GÇ£MilitiaGÇ¥ filter for POS access, Citadels, etcGÇª Remove T3Ds from small plexes Strengthen Faction Navy to make it harder to camp opposing highsec to farm newbs. Have plexes persist through DT and redo spawn mechanics of non-outposts (keep them semi-random though) Randomize plex respawn rate by using a respawn window. Useful System Upgrades
May Arethusa PillowBrigade Inc 37	Posted - 2015.07.16 17:48:43 - [84] - Quote Corp Tax would be great, something people have been asking about for as long as I can remember. Links et al is an entirely different topic, and should be treated as such. I've always wanted my rank to mean something. I've also always wanted my status as a militia member to mean something to my faction's navy. Have your standing/rank counter low security status in your faction's space. You remain a valid target for players in high-sec, but the navy no longer hounds you for being a pirate. I mean, I'm only a pirate because people try to interfere with my war effort. Honest. Privateers were a thing, we should expect similar treatment from our respective factions. A lot of unpleasant actions were overlooked by authorities if it meant someone they didn't like was having a bad day. Similarly, negative standings should scale the response of hostile navies, making it harder to operate in "hostile" space. I'd be fine with not being able to dock in hostile high-sec. This opens up the option of having non-affiliated corporations providing limited safe havens in enemy high-sec. Tie it in with the above standings/rank reworking for an added bonus. Plexes are fine as is, maybe stop T3Ds from entering smalls, but I'm not too concerned about that. As far as system upgrades go, and iHub mechanics, it'll be interesting to see if Fozziesov mechanics eventually trickle down to FW space in some form or another. It makes little sense to continue structure bashing in one section of space but not another. It really depends on how these new structures mesh with FW mechanics as they stand. Restricting anchoring rights for some of the higher-end structures we can expect in the future would be a good start. Don't make it impossible for someone to establish an FOB, but it shouldn't be possible to anchor a Death Star. Quote: Actually, I expect the newFW missions to be quite a big nerf to mission farmers. Haven't seen anything about them, you'd have to elaborate.
Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 483	Posted - 2015.07.16 17:57:21 - [85] - Quote May Arethusa wrote: Quote: Actually, I expect the newFW missions to be quite a big nerf to mission farmers. Haven't seen anything about them, you'd have to elaborate. A couple of the many reasons to redo FW missions are the imbalance between the factions as well as the ridiculous Tier4 Stealthbomber junk. We've been told we won't hear much more beyond that until after the CSM summit, but I trust in Team Space Glitter and Sugar Kyle.
May Arethusa PillowBrigade Inc 37	Posted - 2015.07.16 18:06:54 - [86] - Quote Thanatos Marathon wrote: May Arethusa wrote: Quote: Actually, I expect the newFW missions to be quite a big nerf to mission farmers. Haven't seen anything about them, you'd have to elaborate. One of the many reasons to redo FW missions is the imbalance between the factions as well as the rediculous Tier4 Stealthbomber junk. We've been told we won't hear much more beyond that until after the CSM summit, but I trust in Team Space Glitter and Sugar Kyle. I see, I thought something had been floated already. They definitely need reworking. Personally, I'd exclude the LP payout from Tier bonuses and compensate by making them a viable means of contesting a system. Allow pilots to allocate a target location, and a successful mission adds VP to that system. Failure reduces the VP. Add a time limit that has some meaning, rather than the arbitrary expiration timers that currently exist. As for difficulty, well that's a racial thing and would require a serious rethinking of PVE mechanics as a whole.
Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 483	Posted - 2015.07.16 18:09:39 - [87] - Quote May Arethusa wrote: I see, I thought something had been floated already. They definitely need reworking. Personally, I'd exclude the LP payout from Tier bonuses and compensate by making them a viable means of contesting a system. Allow pilots to allocate a target location, and a successful mission adds VP to that system. Failure reduces the VP. Add a time limit that has some meaning, rather than the arbitrary expiration timers that currently exist. As for difficulty, well that's a racial thing and would require a serious rethinking of PVE mechanics as a whole. There may be some Tier work done in relation to missions, 4 way war, and kill value LP, we won't know anything till after the CSM Summit. Having said that, I think it highly unlikely that they will have pure PVE missions impact system control because almost all of the PVPers in FW would flip out and burn everything to the ground in protest.
Arla Sarain 557	Posted - 2015.07.16 21:31:30 - [88] - Quote May Arethusa wrote: As for difficulty, well that's a racial thing and would require a serious rethinking of PVE mechanics as a whole. Or just canning FW mission EWAR NPCs all together. It's not like they add anything to the actual challenge (running a mission in hostile space, constant interruption, camps, long warp chains, etc), all they do is force you into a gimped fit to counter it. Minnie need to counter nothing, hence the disparity. Would also like the mission rats not to shoot friendlies...
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 661	Posted - 2015.07.16 21:44:42 - [89] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: May Arethusa wrote: As for difficulty, well that's a racial thing and would require a serious rethinking of PVE mechanics as a whole. Or just canning FW mission EWAR NPCs all together. It's not like they add anything to the actual challenge (running a mission in hostile space, constant interruption, camps, long warp chains, etc), all they do is force you into a gimped fit to counter it. Minnie need to counter nothing, hence the disparity. Would also like the mission rats not to shoot friendlies... No to that last part. It would be exploitable by having an alt in the opposing militia complete the mission for you.
Arla Sarain 557	Posted - 2015.07.16 22:30:00 - [90] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Arla Sarain wrote: May Arethusa wrote: As for difficulty, well that's a racial thing and would require a serious rethinking of PVE mechanics as a whole. Or just canning FW mission EWAR NPCs all together. It's not like they add anything to the actual challenge (running a mission in hostile space, constant interruption, camps, long warp chains, etc), all they do is force you into a gimped fit to counter it. Minnie need to counter nothing, hence the disparity. Would also like the mission rats not to shoot friendlies... No to that last part. It would be exploitable by having an alt in the opposing militia complete the mission for you. Assuming the completion of the mission stays ambiguous. I see no reason why it should remain possible to complete the mission with the rat dead, regardless of who the killer is. Unless registering the faction side who owned the last hit on a rat is an expensive server process.

Bienator II madmen of the skies 3341	Posted - 2015.07.17 04:30:19 - [91] - Quote i am wondering, why are mostly neutrals posting in this thread? Isn't that alone a sign of a problem? You join only with your alt because FW's reputation is so bad? how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Veskrashen Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 873	Posted - 2015.07.17 04:42:25 - [92] - Quote If you read CSM member Sugar Kyle's blog, www.lowseclifestyle.com, she mentions that there are already two planned changes that CCP is looking to make: 1. 4 way war, errybody against errybody. No more allied militias, 3 full factions of war targets for one low price! 2. Suspect timers on entering plexes. Not outside, since reasons, but once you're in you're flagged and freely engageable. I may even have to reconsider my dirty piwat status... actually had over 6.0 sec status before joining FW. That went away in a hurry, and tagging my way back above 5.0 seemed pointless after the first 2 times I did it. They're also well aware of the mission imbalance and have "something" planned to address those issues. No idea what that will look like at the moment. I just hope they preserve the necessity to move around the warzones - otherwise it's far too easy to hide in backwater mission systems. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 484	Posted - 2015.07.17 13:38:05 - [93] - Quote Veskrashen wrote: If you read CSM member Sugar Kyle's blog, www.lowseclifestyle.com, she mentions that there are already two planned changes that CCP is looking to make: 1. 4 way war, errybody against errybody. No more allied militias, 3 full factions of war targets for one low price! 2. Suspect timers on entering plexes. Not outside, since reasons, but once you're in you're flagged and freely engageable. I may even have to reconsider my dirty piwat status... actually had over 6.0 sec status before joining FW. That went away in a hurry, and tagging my way back above 5.0 seemed pointless after the first 2 times I did it. They're also well aware of the mission imbalance and have "something" planned to address those issues. No idea what that will look like at the moment. I just hope they preserve the necessity to move around the warzones - otherwise it's far too easy to hide in backwater mission systems. New Missions.
Kaivar Lancer Hier Trading Company 655	Posted - 2015.07.22 08:18:55 - [94] - Quote It'd be cool to "privateer" in enemy high-sec systems. For example, if you're in Gallente militia, you should be allowed to attack "commerce" in Caldari space as an alternative way of earning ISK / LP. With a "Letter of Marque" that is recognised by Concord, you can be allowed to attack players in Caldari space. Perhaps charge a high price for a "Letter of Marque" to prevent abuse, and make it valid for one kill only against a "commerce" class ship like an Industrial, Freighter, Exhumer etc.
Aslon Seridith Calibrated Chaos Habitual Chaos 312	Posted - 2015.07.22 13:35:43 - [95] - Quote Cool pïí it's ASLON SERIDTH? \| Minmatar Most Loved #1 \| Gave Amarr a Medal \| Orchestrator of BurnHuola'14 \| Author of: How to win FW in 3 months \| Nullsec Bittervet \| www.winmatar.com
Andre Vauban Quantum Cats Syndicate Spaceship Bebop 407	Posted - 2015.07.22 18:40:04 - [96] - Quote Kaivar Lancer wrote: It'd be cool to "privateer" in enemy high-sec systems. For example, if you're in Gallente militia, you should be allowed to attack "commerce" in Caldari space as an alternative way of earning ISK / LP. With a "Letter of Marque" that is recognised by Concord, you can be allowed to attack players in Caldari space. Perhaps charge a high price for a "Letter of Marque" to prevent abuse, and make it valid for one kill only against a "commerce" class ship like an Industrial, Freighter, Exhumer etc. The "Letter of Marque" already exists, it's called FW and essentially defines the proxy war between the empires. You can already earn nice LP by killing enemy FW pilots in blinged out missions ships or running freighters and industrials through highsec on their FW toon with billions of isk worth of stuff in cargo. Allowing people to attack random neutrals in highsec w/o CONCORD is just a silly idea. .
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1372	Posted - 2015.09.14 22:05:33 - [97] - Quote Zappity wrote: Pestilen Ratte wrote: The argument that links can't be restricted to grid is complete horse feathers. It is just an outright lie. The real story is that CCP employs people who play the game and who like having unfair advantages because their knopwledge and access to these unfair advantages makes them a big deal in their little worlds. CCP has been quite clear about their desire and intent to put links on grid (whether this is the best outcome for small gangs or not). I believe them more than you I'm afraid. I suppose I still believe them as well. Its just an obviously bad mechanic. But as the years go by I wonder... Anyway in addition to treating plexes like different systems and therefore limitting ogb, I gave some other ideas that I think they should consider to help the sov warfare side of things here. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=443997&find=unread Most of my ideas revolve around trying to make fighting for sov more fun. I don't really get into lp and stuff like that. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Raffael Ramirez Alcohol Fuelled 3	Posted - 2015.09.15 03:09:11 - [98] - Quote Maybe an obviously stupid idea, but what about incorporating incursion like scenarios into FW to gain sov points? Would encourage fleet formation, and fights on every scale, would make Sov actually be earned by killing the other factions ships and wouldn't encourage afk play? Plus the code is already there so wouldn't be that much effort and apparently incursions earn you a killing so you can fund your PVP mistakes easily. I have to admit am not fully familiar with all the mechanics so it might just be a bad idea.
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 871	Posted - 2015.09.15 03:27:18 - [99] - Quote Raffael Ramirez wrote: Maybe an obviously stupid idea, but what about incorporating incursion like scenarios into FW to gain sov points? Would encourage fleet formation, and fights on every scale, would make Sov actually be earned by killing the other factions ships and wouldn't encourage afk play? Plus the code is already there so wouldn't be that much effort and apparently incursions earn you a killing so you can fund your PVP mistakes easily. I have to admit am not fully familiar with all the mechanics so it might just be a bad idea. Please don't make FW any more PvE'ish than it already is. Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Raffael Ramirez Alcohol Fuelled 3	Posted - 2015.09.15 04:58:21 - [100] - Quote Yang Aurilen wrote: Raffael Ramirez wrote: Maybe an obviously stupid idea, but what about incorporating incursion like scenarios into FW to gain sov points? Would encourage fleet formation, and fights on every scale, would make Sov actually be earned by killing the other factions ships and wouldn't encourage afk play? Plus the code is already there so wouldn't be that much effort and apparently incursions earn you a killing so you can fund your PVP mistakes easily. I have to admit am not fully familiar with all the mechanics so it might just be a bad idea. Please don't make FW any more PvE'ish than it already is. Hey I am all for kill-board whoring until a certain k/d ratio gives you a system - It just seemed that people are looking for a more meaningful way to earn LPs other than chasing WCS frigs around :).

Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 873	Posted - 2015.09.15 11:59:01 - [101] - Quote Raffael Ramirez wrote: Yang Aurilen wrote: Raffael Ramirez wrote: Maybe an obviously stupid idea, but what about incorporating incursion like scenarios into FW to gain sov points? Would encourage fleet formation, and fights on every scale, would make Sov actually be earned by killing the other factions ships and wouldn't encourage afk play? Plus the code is already there so wouldn't be that much effort and apparently incursions earn you a killing so you can fund your PVP mistakes easily. I have to admit am not fully familiar with all the mechanics so it might just be a bad idea. Please don't make FW any more PvE'ish than it already is. Hey I am all for kill-board whoring until a certain k/d ratio gives you a system - It just seemed that people are looking for a more meaningful way to earn LPs other than chasing WCS frigs around :). Earn LP? m8 stabbed farmers are the least of our problems if we want to earn LP. stabbed farmers can't chase us out of any plexes. What we want are fights first and foremost. That and all the LP I have right now is purely from shooting war targets. Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 646	Posted - 2015.09.16 03:57:27 - [102] - Quote Stabbed farmers exist, but they aren't ubiquitous like some seem to suggest. You know what are everywhere? Elite pvp gods in linked, snaked, drugged T3D's and Garmurs/Worms/Orthrus. Let's ban T3D's from small plexes, nerf the Svipul's speed and hit the Mordus/Guristas line hard with the nerf bat like they deserve. I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes and OGB being addressed, but those are both controversial and will be a bit longer in coming. EVERYONE agrees that the Svipul is still OP, and Mordus/Guristas kiters are cancer.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1372	Posted - 2015.09.16 17:15:01 - [103] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Stabbed farmers exist, but they aren't ubiquitous like some seem to suggest. You know what are everywhere? Elite pvp gods in linked, snaked, drugged T3D's and Garmurs/Worms/Orthrus. Let's ban T3D's from small plexes, nerf the Svipul's speed and hit the Mordus/Guristas line hard with the nerf bat like they deserve. I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes and OGB being addressed, but those are both controversial and will be a bit longer in coming. EVERYONE agrees that the Svipul is still OP, and Mordus/Guristas kiters are cancer. I am sympathetic but I if you ban t3d from smalls it will just be afs - it used to be the hawk. The T3ds do cost more so they should be better. Also although I think they are clearly more powerfull than destroyers and AFs I think they are clearly outclassed by the pirate cruisers and HACs. Clearly garmurs and worms are overpowered compared to the other pirate ships. But I would just as soon they buffed the succubus and cruror so they would somehow justify their price tag. But honestly all of the tweaks we do won't matter if one pilot has an offgrid booster and the other doesn't. That just completely breaks all balance in ships. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 208	Posted - 2015.09.16 17:33:13 - [104] - Quote As much as t3ds are annoying in smalls it's kinda strange to see people demanding a flat out ban for them, but nothing for worms in novices.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 653	Posted - 2015.09.18 13:19:24 - [105] - Quote Cearain wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Stabbed farmers exist, but they aren't ubiquitous like some seem to suggest. You know what are everywhere? Elite pvp gods in linked, snaked, drugged T3D's and Garmurs/Worms/Orthrus. Let's ban T3D's from small plexes, nerf the Svipul's speed and hit the Mordus/Guristas line hard with the nerf bat like they deserve. I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes and OGB being addressed, but those are both controversial and will be a bit longer in coming. EVERYONE agrees that the Svipul is still OP, and Mordus/Guristas kiters are cancer. I am sympathetic but I if you ban t3d from smalls it will just be afs - it used to be the hawk. The T3ds do cost more so they should be better. Also although I think they are clearly more powerfull than destroyers and AFs I think they are clearly outclassed by the pirate cruisers and HACs. Clearly garmurs and worms are overpowered compared to the other pirate ships. But I would just as soon they buffed the succubus and cruror so they would somehow justify their price tag. But honestly all of the tweaks we do won't matter if one pilot has an offgrid booster and the other doesn't. That just completely breaks all balance in ships. Aye, after thinking about it a bit I tend to agree. Speed fit kiters with OGB and Snakes are too game-breaking. The implants are more expensive and at greater risk; nearly unusable in null due to bubbles and plenty risky in low due to smartbombers and instalocks. They also don't necessitate paying a second account. The fundamental question is whether or not you believe that a second account should be a requirement to compete in PvP. The answer seems obvious to me, but this is a topic that is hotly debated. Obviously many people have already bowed to the inevitable and invested in OGB alts, and those people do not relish the thought of losing that advantage. "Speed creep" is the term I believe. The OGB supported solo/small gang nano-kiting bittervet is the top of the food chain in small scale conflict.
Abannans Forum Alt Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 21	Posted - 2015.10.04 22:49:09 - [106] - Quote Do you wake up in a cold sweat screaming "HE HAD LINKS! NOOOOOOO"
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1379	Posted - 2015.10.05 15:47:52 - [107] - Quote Here is a link to the link to the minutes on faction war and pve. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6077738#post6077738 Some of the fw highlights: NPC faction war patrols Webs in FW missions to dissuade stealth bombers 4 way war A suspect timer of sorts in plexes Have your corp or alliance affiliate with a faction that way individual members can join the faction war without the whole corp joining. No t3s in smalls I probably forgot something. Abannans Forum Alt wrote: Do you wake up in a cold sweat screaming "HE HAD LINKS! NOOOOOOO" Nah, I just lost allot of interest in playing EVE, to the extent it has such broken mechanics. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Portmanteau oooh ponies 71	Posted - 2015.10.05 19:53:56 - [108] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes . On what grounds ?
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 936	Posted - 2015.10.05 20:48:27 - [109] - Quote Portmanteau wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes . On what grounds ? 1. Be newbie 2. Be poor and **** 3. Neutrals keep crashing your plex and everyone tells you shoot first or you die 4. Keep it up until -5 5. Decide to quit FW 6. Cannot into empire anymore because pirate 7. Have to buy tags/rat in lowsec to even get back to empire space Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Portmanteau oooh ponies 71	Posted - 2015.10.05 22:05:15 - [110] - Quote Yang Aurilen wrote: Portmanteau wrote: Demerius Xenocratus wrote: I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes . On what grounds ? 1. Be newbie 2. Be poor and **** 3. Neutrals keep crashing your plex and everyone tells you shoot first or you die 4. Keep it up until -5 5. Decide to quit FW 6. Cannot into empire anymore because pirate 7. Have to buy tags/rat in lowsec to even get back to empire space While I think FWers seem to be a little bit too "lowsec is all about us" and this suggestion smacks of that a bit, I suppose nobody neutral would really give a toss about a suspect flag anyway, so yeah, fair enough.

May Arethusa The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 67	Posted - 2015.10.06 14:25:03 - [111] - Quote Portmanteau wrote: While I think FWers seem to be a little bit too "lowsec is all about us" and this suggestion smacks of that a bit, I suppose nobody neutral would really give a toss about a suspect flag anyway, so yeah, fair enough. Low-sec? No. The war zone? Definitely. Who else should it be about?
sero Hita Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 27	Posted - 2015.10.07 08:34:20 - [112] - Quote Cearain wrote: I probably forgot something. CCP Affinty wrote: We're looking at maybe letting people move militias without a standing penalty, but there would be some restriction so as not to allow people to militia hop. from the minutes
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 678	Posted - 2015.10.07 23:42:43 - [113] - Quote Abannans Forum Alt wrote: Do you wake up in a cold sweat screaming "HE HAD LINKS! NOOOOOOO" Links are cancer. Everyone who has a shred of intellectual honesty recognizes this. They don't bother me much anymore because my corp has lots of OGB alts and I'm familiar with the most egregious OGB abusers in the war zone. It's still really obvious to me and most others that they are broken. Many better known and more skilled/experienced pvp'ers are also making this argument. It's going to happen. My tear bucket is ready. If you want to learn specifically why links are trash gameplay, you can peruse my post history. You can read Suitonia's article on the topic. You can check Chessur's reddit posting history. Or you can read any of the OGB threads where Crosi circles the wagons around his beloved linked garmur in a futile attempt to ward off the hordes of angry Indians who will continue to press this issue until OGB are "nuked from orbit." Links have a chilling effect on fight frequency.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 678	Posted - 2015.10.07 23:53:43 - [114] - Quote sero Hita wrote: Cearain wrote: I probably forgot something. CCP Affinty wrote: We're looking at maybe letting people move militias without a standing penalty, but there would be some restriction so as not to allow people to militia hop. from the minutes Veteran wardec spammers hopping militias constantly to farm kills in high sec is already an issue. We don't need more of it.
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 678	Posted - 2015.10.07 23:59:38 - [115] - Quote May Arethusa wrote: Portmanteau wrote: While I think FWers seem to be a little bit too "lowsec is all about us" and this suggestion smacks of that a bit, I suppose nobody neutral would really give a toss about a suspect flag anyway, so yeah, fair enough. Low-sec? No. The war zone? Definitely. Who else should it be about? Faction warfare complexes in faction warfare space are indeed about faction warfare participants, methinks. If you want to use those complexes to generate content by attacking FW players, you are a pirate and your standings should reflect that rather than you being able to exploit the brawl/kite dynamic of plex warfare to force FW players to aggress first and take the standing hit while you preserve your standing and get content. It's silly that we are the ones who have to take the hit fighting in our own complexes. There's lots of things in lowsec systems besides complexes. If you want to use those specifically to generate content without subjecting yourself to the other risks of FW, there should be a trade-off. Neutrals get gate gun protection in lowsec, which can be a huge advantage. There are others.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1521	Posted - 2015.10.08 09:51:17 - [116] - Quote Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Links have an effect on fight frequency. FTFY It is true, last session i played i took on while solo(boosted); a fight against a gaglle of brave squids, cant remember their exact comp. a fight against another cal mil corp (Sanctuary's Intelligence Service) of roughly 15 people. a fight against 20 eve-u slicers with damp support. a fight against 10 calmil faction frigs, hb's and comets. a fight aganst 6 recons including, 2 curse, lach, rapier. Non of which would have happened if i didnt have boosts. Now its a valid question, should one very expensive pirate faction frig be able to skirmish gangs this large? My ship has 2000hp and one error can spell doom. Links drive content in many scenarios where they are employed to help the opponent misjudge his chances in the engagement and take a fight where the boosts are providing a capability that is out of the normal envelope, either tank, speed, sig, sensor strength, lock range etc. All i know is that i had to constantly watch out for exodus as they were equally equipped and flying faster ships than me, In fact, for about an hour their entire alliance were chasing me around and had an insta camp on the out gate to get payback for a couple of plexing alts they lost :). The alt that helped me more here was the one i had with eyes on that gate, not the boosting alt.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1388	Posted - 2015.10.08 16:21:37 - [117] - Quote Crosi As always you only talk about the fights with gangs of new players you engage who probably know very little about pvp at all. You fail to mention all the ganks from your way overpowered ogb. In any case, all of those pilots likely left with an increased feeling that "solo" or micro gang pvp in eve is best left to tryhards who want to pay for an alt account and drag it around everywhere. That growing feeling is indeed a cancer to eve. Sadly that feeling has plenty of justification. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1521	Posted - 2015.10.08 17:06:15 - [118] - Quote If i wasnt there, they would have been left with the feeling of jumping into another empty system where there was no action at all and the couple of locals have no interest in fighting blobs of faction frigs. And tbh, apart from a relatively small number of farmer kills theres not many fights i take where im not outnumbered, often by quite a lot. And quite often when im taking a fight outnumbered i also have to warp in to them. A risk that i accept but would be much closer to suicidal with no boosts, so it would just not happen.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1389	Posted - 2015.10.08 20:10:22 - [119] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: If i wasnt there, they would have been left with the feeling of jumping into another empty system where there was no action at all and the couple of locals have no interest in fighting blobs of faction frigs. It is pretty clear to me that allot more people would be fighting in low sec plexes if it weren't for all the broken ogbs. You might think your presence makes up for that, but we will just have to disagree. Crosi Wesdo wrote: And tbh, apart from a relatively small number of farmer kills theres not many fights i take where im not outnumbered, often by quite a lot. And quite often when im taking a fight outnumbered i also have to warp in to them. A risk that i accept but would be much closer to suicidal with no boosts, so it would just not happen. When you say you are outnumbered are you including your strategic cruiser? I noticed in your last post you refered to your "one very expensive pirate faction frig." But of course that is not all they were fighting. The killboards only show that one pirate faction frigate but there was also a strategic cruiser likely worth more than their entire gang on your side. When you say it would be "much closer to suicidal" for you to jump in without boosts, you mean it would be much more likely you would die right? Or do you mean you would self destruct if you did not have boosts? And you know that allot of people stopped jumping into plexes due to boosts. In the past there used to be some chance that you could sling shot a kitey ship so I used to jump in and give it a try, even when I was ab fit. Sometimes I would die sometimes the kiter would die sometimes one of us would warp off. But it always involved a struggle with both pilots applying effort and skill. Now if you jump in on a kitey ship with boosts you have no chance of slingshotting them and you might as well just self destruct to save some time. I do not blame you for playing the game the way ccp set it up. But it is crazy to think everyone running around in low sec with ogb is actually making more people want to log on and pvp in plexes. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Arla Sarain 668	Posted - 2015.10.08 21:56:46 - [120] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: i also have to warp in to them. A risk that i accept but would be much closer to suicidal with no boosts, so it would just not happen. But the risk is inherently due to plex mechanics landing you in a predictable place, not the lack of links. Pretty sure no one at CCP even thought about OGBs when plex mechanics were designed. To justify links by saying that fighting uphill in a plex would be impossible without them is just implying that links should be mandatory for anyone who doesn't want to obtain plex fights exclusively by occupying the plex first, and instead desires to fight on both opportunities (sitting inside and jumping into). In this regard, plex mechanics should change to favour neither player instead (through whatever method that would be), rather than give a free pass to those who "picked the right starting pokemon" and punish those who didn't.

Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1521	Posted - 2015.10.08 23:38:29 - [121] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: i also have to warp in to them. A risk that i accept but would be much closer to suicidal with no boosts, so it would just not happen. But the risk is inherently due to plex mechanics landing you in a predictable place, not the lack of links. Pretty sure no one at CCP even thought about OGBs when plex mechanics were designed. To justify links by saying that fighting uphill in a plex would be impossible without them is just implying that links should be mandatory for anyone who doesn't want to obtain plex fights exclusively by occupying the plex first, and instead desires to fight on both opportunities (sitting inside and jumping into). In this regard, plex mechanics should change to favour neither player instead (through whatever method that would be), rather than give a free pass to those who "picked the right starting pokemon" and punish those who didn't. I highly doubt your decision to buy a link alt was a strategic decision and instead reactive in response to the power creep. Boosts are older than FW.
May Arethusa The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 69	Posted - 2015.10.09 00:17:55 - [122] - Quote Quote: It is pretty clear to me that allot more people would be fighting in low sec plexes if it weren't for all the broken ogbs. Unfortunately, this simply isn't true. For every person who claims not to fight because of links, there's someone who wouldn't fight without them. It's a crude approximation of course, but probably disturbingly accurate. Risk assessment is the reason why a lot of people don't fight, and as the population ages it is only natural that they become better as a whole at evaluating the situation and deciding whether or not to take a fight. When I roam solo, I do so without links, and still find it difficult to get a fight. Either the occupant flees before i arrive, they're stabbed, or a frustrating mix of both. Plex mechanics are increasingly getting in the way of fights rather than facilitating them, and it's largely a result of the shift in focus FW has undergone. System control means nothing beyond tier maintenance and docking rights, with the majority of systems having little or no value at all. With CCP's stance of medals being made abundantly clear recently, we've lost yet another reason for anyone to even consider flipping a war zone. It isn't until large entities decide to try their hand at FW that things heat up for a while, with BRAVE's recent arrival being a perfect example. Most "good" fights happen purely by accident, system sieges have had most of the fun sucked out of them by increasingly isk efficient doctrines being favoured due to their attritional nature. Third parties control most of the meaningful assets within the war zones, which leaves militias essentially manufacturing ganks and easy kills as they roam around looking for fights that simply won't materialise, and if they do, one side has usually one-upped the other, which means the fight never happens. In the end, links have very little to do with the stagnant nature of FW. Without a significant overhaul of the FW mechanics, I don't expect much to change. I'll leave you with a brief exchange I witnessed earlier today that perfectly highlights why FW is broken. A quick check of their killboards while I was running my plex revealed both were quad-stabbed with no weapons fitted. Also present in system, but silent for the duration was a similarly quad-stabbed Navy Vexor pilot. Ranma Roxx > xFleuryx go the ** awas Ranma Roxx > away Ranma Roxx > if you please xFleuryx > no screw u, this is my site xFleuryx > i started it Ranma Roxx > i was first here Ranma Roxx > go away xFleuryx > I was xFleuryx > already 1 min off Ranma Roxx > gal mil have more manners as you xFleuryx > u just got here xFleuryx > dude, you're a theif Ranma Roxx > no Ranma Roxx > yesturday the same xFleuryx > then leave Ranma Roxx > you always in my plexes arround xFleuryx > I was here first May Arethusa > so cute xFleuryx > lol xFleuryx > it's so anoying xFleuryx > Melancholy I i'm quad stabbed, come to the medium and kill this incursus Ranma Roxx > ^^ Ranma Roxx > so poor xFleuryx > dude xFleuryx > leave Ranma Roxx > no i was first xFleuryx > lol xFleuryx > no u weren't xFleuryx > ask Melancholy I Melancholy I > holy ** this local chat is cancer, you win, i leave xFleuryx > lol Ranma Roxx > ^^ Ranma Roxx > fly save Message > Site has been captured. Ranma Roxx > i think we will share the next years our lps xFleuryx > guess so Ranma Roxx > deal! May Arethusa > yeah, if only either of you had guns to resolve the issue properly xFleuryx > hey Galenros May Arethusa i'll call you when there's 1 min left on this medium, can come grab some quick LP if you want Galenros > no ty, dont use lp atm, but ty for the offer xFleuryx > k, np Galenros > should cash in the current ones in some point as well... n++Galenros > you guys have fun here and shoot those reds away :) xFleuryx > lol :) Galenros > 07 xFleuryx > 7o n++Ranma Roxx > i feel disapponted Ranma Roxx > you here sine two days? xFleuryx > i'm going to be here all month Ranma Roxx > as i see galmil have got more manners as you xFleuryx > but ya xFleuryx > dude, you're a theif. stop talking Ranma Roxx > you're funny Ranma Roxx > :D Ranma Roxx > thank you for entertaiment xFleuryx > lol, w/e xFleuryx > enjou half the LP for the next month Ranma Roxx > i think you will lose more Ranma Roxx > how many chars do you run? Ranma Roxx > :) xFleuryx > i'm running incursions right now, LP is worth nothing lol xFleuryx > I have 6 toons on 3 accounts Ranma Roxx > that's nice Ranma Roxx > and now? xFleuryx > it's not bad xFleuryx > what? Ranma Roxx > how many are in a plex right now? xFleuryx > just one Ranma Roxx > u see you loose xFleuryx > other 2 are runnning boosted for an incusrion, and the other one is flying it in xFleuryx > lose what? Ranma Roxx > more lp as i xFleuryx > lol Ranma Roxx > so be afk again bab Ranma Roxx > a xFleuryx > I make 240mil an hour if both my toons are runnig sites xFleuryx > keep your ***** LP
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 680	Posted - 2015.10.09 03:17:57 - [123] - Quote May Arethusa wrote: Quote: It is pretty clear to me that allot more people would be fighting in low sec plexes if it weren't for all the broken ogbs. Unfortunately, this simply isn't true. For every person who claims not to fight because of links, there's someone who wouldn't fight without them. It's a crude approximation of course, but probably disturbingly accurate. Risk assessment is the reason why a lot of people don't fight, and as the population ages it is only natural that they become better as a whole at evaluating the situation and deciding whether or not to take a fight. When I roam solo, I do so without links, and still find it difficult to get a fight. Either the occupant flees before i arrive, they're stabbed, or a frustrating mix of both. Plex mechanics are increasingly getting in the way of fights rather than facilitating them, and it's largely a result of the shift in focus FW has undergone. System control means nothing beyond tier maintenance and docking rights, with the majority of systems having little or no value at all. With CCP's stance of medals being made abundantly clear recently, we've lost yet another reason for anyone to even consider flipping a war zone. It isn't until large entities decide to try their hand at FW that things heat up for a while, with BRAVE's recent arrival being a perfect example. Most "good" fights happen purely by accident, system sieges have had most of the fun sucked out of them by increasingly isk efficient doctrines being favoured due to their attritional nature. Third parties control most of the meaningful assets within the war zones, which leaves militias essentially manufacturing ganks and easy kills as they roam around looking for fights that simply won't materialise, and if they do, one side has usually one-upped the other, which means the fight never happens. In the end, links have very little to do with the stagnant nature of FW. Without a significant overhaul of the FW mechanics, I don't expect much to change. I'll leave you with a brief exchange I witnessed earlier today that perfectly highlights why FW is broken. A quick check of their killboards while I was running my plex revealed both were quad-stabbed with no weapons fitted. Also present in system, but silent for the duration was a similarly quad-stabbed Navy Vexor pilot. Ranma Roxx > xFleuryx go the ** awas Ranma Roxx > away Ranma Roxx > if you please xFleuryx > no screw u, this is my site xFleuryx > i started it Ranma Roxx > i was first here Ranma Roxx > go away xFleuryx > I was xFleuryx > already 1 min off Ranma Roxx > gal mil have more manners as you xFleuryx > u just got here xFleuryx > dude, you're a theif Ranma Roxx > no Ranma Roxx > yesturday the same xFleuryx > then leave Ranma Roxx > you always in my plexes arround xFleuryx > I was here first May Arethusa > so cute xFleuryx > lol xFleuryx > it's so anoying xFleuryx > Melancholy I i'm quad stabbed, come to the medium and kill this incursus Ranma Roxx > ^^ Ranma Roxx > so poor xFleuryx > dude xFleuryx > leave Ranma Roxx > no i was first xFleuryx > lol xFleuryx > no u weren't xFleuryx > ask Melancholy I Melancholy I > holy ** this local chat is cancer, you win, i leave xFleuryx > lol Ranma Roxx > ^^ Ranma Roxx > fly save Message > Site has been captured. Ranma Roxx > i think we will share the next years our lps xFleuryx > guess so Ranma Roxx > deal! May Arethusa > yeah, if only either of you had guns to resolve the issue properly xFleuryx > hey Galenros May Arethusa i'll call you when there's 1 min left on this medium, can come grab some quick LP if you want Galenros > no ty, dont use lp atm, but ty for the offer xFleuryx > k, np Galenros > should cash in the current ones in some point as well... n++Galenros > you guys have fun here and shoot those reds away :) xFleuryx > lol :) Galenros > 07 xFleuryx > 7o n++Ranma Roxx > i feel disapponted Ranma Roxx > you here sine two days? xFleuryx > i'm going to be here all month Ranma Roxx > as i see galmil have got more manners as you xFleuryx > but ya xFleuryx > dude, you're a theif. stop talking Ranma Roxx > you're funny Ranma Roxx > :D Ranma Roxx > thank you for entertaiment xFleuryx > lol, w/e xFleuryx > enjou half the LP for the next month Ranma Roxx > i think you will lose more Ranma Roxx > how many chars do you run? Ranma Roxx > :) xFleuryx > i'm running incursions right now, LP is worth nothing lol xFleuryx > I have 6 toons on 3 accounts Ranma Roxx > that's nice Ranma Roxx > and now? xFleuryx > it's not bad xFleuryx > what? Ranma Roxx > how many are in a plex right now? xFleuryx > just one Ranma Roxx > u see you loose xFleuryx > other 2 are runnning boosted for an incusrion, and the other one is flying it in xFleuryx > lose what? Ranma Roxx > more lp as i xFleuryx > lol Ranma Roxx > so be afk again bab Ranma Roxx > a xFleuryx > I make 240mil an hour if both my toons are runnig sites xFleuryx > keep your ***** LP Bob wept.
per Terpene Conglomerate 76	Posted - 2015.10.11 13:01:52 - [124] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Boosts are older than FW. well they might be older than fw but they havent been always so op
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1525	Posted - 2015.10.11 13:35:32 - [125] - Quote No, they used to be slightly more powerful.
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders 4109	Posted - 2015.10.11 13:45:15 - [126] - Quote May Arethusa wrote: Quote: It is pretty clear to me that allot more people would be fighting in low sec plexes if it weren't for all the broken ogbs. Unfortunately, this simply isn't true. I disagree. Assuming you enjoy EVE PVP, you'll fight if: a) you have the necessary resources (ISK, logistics in the hauling sense, SP to fly the appropriate ship, etc.) b) you believe you have a reasonable chance to win, or at least have an enjoyable fight for example killing something before you die FW LP, a decently organised corp (or DIY hauling if you enjoy it) and some patience (training time) pretty much take care of a). Regarding b), everyone has their own personal risk adversity, some low some high, that's a given independently of game mechanics. The fact with OGB though is that it adds a pretty significant level of uncertainty to everyone's pre-fight risk-assessment. Yes, over time you come to know the 'usual suspects' who always fly boosted in a certain area. But if you like to roam you'll often be in a situation where you really don't know who's boosted and who's not. So I'll throw in a simple idea: make 'boosted' (as in warfare links, not fleet leadership bonuses) a status that shows up in local and on-grid (same as the 'suspect' status, for example). Then let the meta sort itself out, 'in the open' so to speak. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1393	Posted - 2015.10.11 17:16:08 - [127] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: No, they used to be slightly more powerful. T3s came after faction war. Although that was the point where people could start using boosts the percentages of people actually using them did not seem to get out of hand until later. The bonuses themselves may have decreased but because ccp gave us other mods that work especially well with ogb like better active tank ships and mods as well as better bonuses to those mods there effect was largely unaffected and over the years they have arguably even become more powerfull. Of course with time there will continue to be more available characters trained with the leadership and other skills necessary to run ogb. And I think we see more and more of their use. (but I admit that is somewhat anecdotal afaik ccp has not released any data on how many more kills use a booster. I would love to see that data.) CCP did allot of things that made low sec pvp much better over the last few years e.g., fw and crime watch changes. And according to dotlan in 2013 and 2014 we had over 4 million kills in low sec. In 2015 we are currently sitting at about 2.8 million. Now we still have 2.7 months to go. And there are allot of null sec entities coming in. But it is good to see the statistics before the influx of null sec pilots which for reasons unrelated to low sec mechanics might boost the pvp. So we see 4m/12 = over 333k kills/ month for 2013 and 2014. 2015 we have 2.8/10.3 =271k kills per month. Thats a 20% decline. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2015 2013 and 2014 saw much more pvp than 2012 and earlier years. You would think as people get more pvp fights that in itself would draw more people to low sec and we would see the numbers continue to snowball upward. Even with the numbers plateauing in 2013-2014 that would be a sign something is amiss. That is what makes this reversing of the trend particularly odd. Faction war hasn't changed that much since then. Other low sec mechanics haven't changed that much AFAIK. I would at least posit that the ogb cancer spreading is a very important factor. If you want to blame bad null sec changes for the decline in numbers generally that really shouldn't effect low sec pvp that much. If anything we are seeing many of those players would come over to low sec so it might actually be helping low sec. I did also predict that the changes to faction war done on october 22nd 2012 would eventually lead to stagnation. But I would have thought that the increase in kills in 2013 could have made up for that at least in the kill statistics. Sure people might have less interest in faction war sov but I would think the increase in pvp would continue to draw more players. I have a strong hunch broken ogbs are a big contributing reason for this decline. But I would be interested in other views. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1525	Posted - 2015.10.11 17:27:42 - [128] - Quote No they arnt. There has been little appetite to fight for sov in meat grinders until this month and brave entering FW, but the choice not to push the warzone and generate ludicrous numbers of kills has not at all had anything to do with OGB or FW stagnating. Sorry. It simply takes a level of willpower and support to mobilise and deploy and up to now no one has pressed that button for a while.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1393	Posted - 2015.10.11 18:05:04 - [129] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: No they arnt. There has been little appetite to fight for sov in meat grinders until this month and brave entering FW, but the choice not to push the warzone and generate ludicrous numbers of kills has not at all had anything to do with OGB or FW stagnating. Sorry. No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing. The question is what has lead players to be uninterested in pushing the warzone to generate pvp? Now if all of a sudden null sec got so much better that might explain why low sec became stagnant. (but the statistics don't really show that) I agree that null sec corps coming to faction war space (and some even into faction war) should help increase the kills. But it would be odd to then say ogb has increased the pvp in low sec. These groups coming to fw low sec is not because low sec all of a sudden got better. At least it objectively has not changed since 2013 other than having fewer kills and people. I don't think these groups would think fewer kills and fewer people is good. It has more to do with these groups' perception that null sec got worse for them. In the end we should try to isolate and remove confounding variables like what is happening in null sec in assessing how things are going in low sec. We should expect that if pvp increases in low sec as it did in 2013 then it should continue to snowball up if nothing else is at work. More people coming to low sec and finding more and more pvp should lead to more people coming to low sec for pvp and more pvp etc etc. Saddly we did not see that. We saw a proliferation of ogb in low sec and the amount of pvp plateaued and is now actually dropping. What other causes do you attribute this to other than ogb proliferating? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1525	Posted - 2015.10.11 18:13:17 - [130] - Quote Lack of a narrative to drive a huge operation. The foresight to know the costs in time, isk and sleep for those involved and the fact that it was really up to caldari to roll the dice in our warzone since gallente was pretty much where we wanted to be. Cal mil lacked the confidence to push and the odd time they tried we smacked it down. Brave arriving has delivered the narrative, so it just come down to who has the most time, isk and sleeps the least :) OGB wouldnt even feature on a list of why operations have been slow this year. Amarr/matar WT is currently changing hands. Not sure how many fights they are getting but saying FW is stagnating when systems have started changing hands on all sides of the warzone would be incorrect.

Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders 4110	Posted - 2015.10.11 18:52:56 - [131] - Quote Cearain wrote: No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing. omissis What other causes do you attribute this to other than ogb proliferating? Though I certainly recognize the influence of OGB on the solo/small gang meta, I frankly never once, in 2+ years of FW fleet combat, heard a galmil FC take or not a fight because of boosts/lack of them. We fly just as often with boost than without. When we have them, oftentimes the dude with the booster alt has to drop fleet at one point to go eat/work/make sweet love to his gf/whatever; no-one cares, we just keep on going. Maybe an hour after someone else puts links up, or maybe not, the squids die anyway. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 689	Posted - 2015.10.12 00:59:52 - [132] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Cearain wrote: No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing. omissis What other causes do you attribute this to other than ogb proliferating? Though I certainly recognize the influence of OGB on the solo/small gang meta, I frankly never once, in 2+ years of FW fleet combat, heard a galmil FC take or not a fight because of boosts/lack of them. We fly just as often with boost than without. When we have them, oftentimes the dude with the booster alt has to drop fleet at one point to go eat/work/make sweet love to his gf/whatever; no-one cares, we just keep on going. Maybe an hour after someone else puts links up, or maybe not, the squids die anyway. I've never been in a serious (doctrine with logi) Galmil fleet that did not have at least one booster. Most of the active FC's have an OGB alt. The advantage in fleet EHP alone is just too overpowering. Making a semi-AFK alt an entry requirement for PvP is bad. The argument that links create content because one guy can fly circles around unlinked e-uni and brave blobs is nonsense. For every fight like that there's many more that didn't happen because one side recognized the futility of trying to catch linked snaked nano kiters with no links of their own, and docked up.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1530	Posted - 2015.10.12 09:54:16 - [133] - Quote You think brave or eve uni dont have links?
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1393	Posted - 2015.10.12 13:44:12 - [134] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: You think brave or eve uni dont have links? Are you asking if there is a single person in those entire alliances that has links? If so the answer is yes. Or are you asking if every pvp pilot from those corps always has links every time they pvp? Then the answer is no. Again they get the impression that leaving the blob = getting ganked. Eve wasn't always that way. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1531	Posted - 2015.10.12 14:09:00 - [135] - Quote You seem to be speaking for a great many people there. Im not sure you have the perspective to do so. I think you are working on assumptions.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1393	Posted - 2015.10.12 14:29:21 - [136] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: You seem to be speaking for a great many people there. Im not sure you have the perspective to do so. I think you are working on assumptions. Well we can look at the evidence. Which includes the fact that one of the most supported player requests that has yet to be implemented is to put boosts on grid. It is likely the most common topic that players have consistently told ccp is terrible for the game leading right up to the current decline in numbers. Of course you are going to pretend you don't hear what the players are saying. And pretend ogb is not contributing to people choosing to do other things with their time. Sure we can ask how much it is contributing to players not being as interested in the game. Even in my own case I can say I would probably go back to doing some low sec pvp if they removed ogb, but there are other things at work as well. But in light of the constant dissatisfaction expressed by players, one would have to be completely deaf to then wonder if it is effecting their interest in the game. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1531	Posted - 2015.10.12 15:03:03 - [137] - Quote There is no conversation for keeping OGB OG. So its very hard to make a comparison. The vocal minority is never really representative of the whole.
Colt Blackhawk bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions 313	Posted - 2015.10.20 12:12:35 - [138] - Quote Honestly this game is broken like piece of ** and there are enough idiots in this game not getting it. Just did my first fw missions after long fw break and really: THE ISK/H IS CRAZY. So we have: 1.) Total idiots (for example goons) ratting in 0.0 sov with same income like lv4 missions in highsec. Maybe 80mil/h up to 100mil/h if done right. 3.) Incursion runners at maybe 120 mil isk/h. 3.) NPC 0.0 mission running ranging from 125mil/h up to 250mil/h. 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. I didn-¦t list wh income because I have no clue. But hey CCP: I know you can-¦t fix idiots ratting in 0.0 sov because you can-¦t sell brains to them BUT lowsec fw mission income is crazy for over three years now and beyond anything you can make in 0.0. Until this is not fixed this game is kinda COMPLETELY BROKEN. [09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f** amarr flag and s* on their smoking wrecks.
Master Sergeant MacRobert Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 232	Posted - 2015.10.20 13:14:25 - [139] - Quote Colt Blackhawk wrote: Honestly this game is broken like piece of **** and there are enough idiots in this game not getting it. Just did my first fw missions after long fw break and really: THE ISK/H IS CRAZY. So we have: 1.) Total idiots (for example goons) ratting in 0.0 sov with same income like lv4 missions in highsec. Maybe 80mil/h up to 100mil/h if done right. 3.) Incursion runners at maybe 120 mil isk/h. 3.) NPC 0.0 mission running ranging from 125mil/h up to 250mil/h. 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. I didn-¦t list wh income because I have no clue. But hey CCP: I know you can-¦t fix idiots ratting in 0.0 sov because you can-¦t sell brains to them BUT lowsec fw mission income is crazy for over three years now and beyond anything you can make in 0.0. Until this is not fixed this game is kinda COMPLETELY BROKEN. Edit: I did the maths and I made today easily 330mil in 1h and 31 minutes. In lean back mode. Crazy. Stop doing FW missions Colt, they rot your brain. Welcome back btw o7 All they need to do is nerf the excessive high tier bonus's to LP rewards and then implement the planned alterations to Missions that mean you have to risk a bit more. A FW Mission should not get 150% payout at tier 3, 175% at tier 4 and 225% at tier 5. They're too high. I recommend the high tiers have no bonus's to rewards and should instead provide discounts on things that are not wealth accumulation. Such as discounts to repair costs, contract costs, manufacturing costs, research costs, Militia I-hub donation costs, concord sec status repair costs, etc.. "Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders 530	Posted - 2015.10.20 13:38:59 - [140] - Quote Cearain wrote: No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing. Sorry Cearain but you are wrong on this one. We don't push the warzone because we want an extremely strong PVP ecosystem at the moment. There are still enough people in Gal Mil with the know how, as well as pilots with the skills and gumption, to take the warzone. It would totally suck at the moment due to how much neckbearding we would have to do in the AU tz due to Cal AU tz strength, but it would be doable. Having said that, it would be a terrible idea. In fact, we don't even want to take Caldari home systems. Killing off all your targets is a great way to end up with no targets. - Than

Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1545	Posted - 2015.10.20 13:42:59 - [141] - Quote Colt Blackhawk wrote: Honestly this game is broken like piece of **** and there are enough idiots in this game not getting it. Just did my first fw missions after long fw break and really: THE ISK/H IS CRAZY. So we have: 1.) Total idiots (for example goons) ratting in 0.0 sov with same income like lv4 missions in highsec. Maybe 80mil/h up to 100mil/h if done right. 3.) Incursion runners at maybe 120 mil isk/h. 3.) NPC 0.0 mission running ranging from 125mil/h up to 250mil/h. 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. I didn-¦t list wh income because I have no clue. But hey CCP: I know you can-¦t fix idiots ratting in 0.0 sov because you can-¦t sell brains to them BUT lowsec fw mission income is crazy for over three years now and beyond anything you can make in 0.0. Until this is not fixed this game is kinda COMPLETELY BROKEN. Edit: I did the maths and I made today easily 330mil in 1h and 31 minutes. In lean back mode. Crazy. I dont see many people running missions in cal gal space. Perhaps the webbing frigs will fix them a little. Id be happy with just deleting them. Even now, if people running missions bothers you its trivial to go stop them.
ColdBeauty oooh ponies 5	Posted - 2015.10.20 14:39:25 - [142] - Quote Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. 450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ?
Colt Blackhawk bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions 313	Posted - 2015.10.20 15:03:58 - [143] - Quote Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote: Colt Blackhawk wrote: Honestly this game is broken like piece of **** and there are enough idiots in this game not getting it. Just did my first fw missions after long fw break and really: THE ISK/H IS CRAZY. So we have: 1.) Total idiots (for example goons) ratting in 0.0 sov with same income like lv4 missions in highsec. Maybe 80mil/h up to 100mil/h if done right. 3.) Incursion runners at maybe 120 mil isk/h. 3.) NPC 0.0 mission running ranging from 125mil/h up to 250mil/h. 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. I didn-¦t list wh income because I have no clue. But hey CCP: I know you can-¦t fix idiots ratting in 0.0 sov because you can-¦t sell brains to them BUT lowsec fw mission income is crazy for over three years now and beyond anything you can make in 0.0. Until this is not fixed this game is kinda COMPLETELY BROKEN. Edit: I did the maths and I made today easily 330mil in 1h and 31 minutes. In lean back mode. Crazy. Stop doing FW missions Colt, they rot your brain. Welcome back btw o7 All they need to do is nerf the excessive high tier bonus's to LP rewards and then implement the planned alterations to Missions that mean you have to risk a bit more. A FW Mission should not get 150% payout at tier 3, 175% at tier 4 and 225% at tier 5. They're too high. I recommend the high tiers have no bonus's to rewards and should instead provide discounts on things that are not wealth accumulation. Such as discounts to repair costs, contract costs, manufacturing costs, research costs, Militia I-hub donation costs, concord sec status repair costs, etc.. THX but I am not back. On the other side I was never away. Had always 2 alts covering 3 militias. Best isk/h in game by far. NOT going back to lowsec "do not undock without ogb" pvp. Although I have my own booster now but I am not *********** enough to use it as "pro solo pvp". [09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f** amarr flag and s* on their smoking wrecks.
Arla Sarain 677	Posted - 2015.10.20 15:04:26 - [144] - Quote ColdBeauty wrote: Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. 450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? You don't get ISK from FW missions. You get discounted items and sink ISK. If all those "idiot" goons moved into FW and made their "money" farming missions, there'd be no ISK in the economy to purchase the items you trade in the LP store. Where'd you think the ISK came from when you sold your items on the market? Nowhere?
Colt Blackhawk bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions 313	Posted - 2015.10.20 15:07:49 - [145] - Quote ColdBeauty wrote: Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. 450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? I have a good RL income but THX for the example/insult. But if you have ever been with russians, romanians or africans in a corp you get a bad conscience when you realise that europeans and us boys are doing pay2win with plex. On the other side the most east europeans would not be able to play without plex. Well everyone can do what he likes in this game. Back on topic: Well t3ds get banned from smalls but are not good enough for mediums so what to do with em? [09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f**** amarr flag and s* on their smoking wrecks.
Colt Blackhawk bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions 313	Posted - 2015.10.20 15:09:42 - [146] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: ColdBeauty wrote: Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. 450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? You don't get ISK from FW missions. You get discounted items and sink ISK. If all those "idiot" goons moved into FW and made their "money" farming missions, there'd be no ISK in the economy to purchase the items you trade in the LP store. Where'd you think the ISK came from when you sold your items on the market? Nowhere? From idiots who rat in sov 0.0 ofc. Tried it once while I was in NC and quit after 2h. Was even more dull than mining. [09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f**** amarr flag and s* on their smoking wrecks.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 834	Posted - 2015.10.20 15:34:59 - [147] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: ColdBeauty wrote: Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. 450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? You don't get ISK from FW missions. You get discounted items and sink ISK. If all those "idiot" goons moved into FW and made their "money" farming missions, there'd be no ISK in the economy to purchase the items you trade in the LP store. Where'd you think the ISK came from when you sold your items on the market? Nowhere? It's funny that you think there aren't goon alts in FW.
Arla Sarain 677	Posted - 2015.10.20 15:35:56 - [148] - Quote Colt Blackhawk wrote: Arla Sarain wrote: ColdBeauty wrote: Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. 450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? You don't get ISK from FW missions. You get discounted items and sink ISK. If all those "idiot" goons moved into FW and made their "money" farming missions, there'd be no ISK in the economy to purchase the items you trade in the LP store. Where'd you think the ISK came from when you sold your items on the market? Nowhere? From idiots who rat in sov 0.0 ofc. Tried it once while I was in NC and quit after 2h. Was even more dull than mining. Ok so bar the continuous spouting about how much they are idiots, contrary to their current choice, if they decided to start being "smart" and moved up to FW, you don't think that the value of LP will fall? Not only will there be a saturation of items, there also won't be any ISK provided by them for us to trade our LP items in. Wormhole income is much "crazier" than FW. Blue loot is bought by NPCs and the income is high enough to farm in dreads and compensate for losses, which happen very occasionally. FW income is hardly broken. We get as much as people are willing to pay for the stuff we provide.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1409	Posted - 2015.10.20 18:55:57 - [149] - Quote Thanatos Marathon wrote: Cearain wrote: No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing. Sorry Cearain but you are wrong on this one. We don't push the warzone because we want an extremely strong PVP ecosystem at the moment. There are still enough people in Gal Mil with the know how, as well as pilots with the skills and gumption, to take the warzone. It would totally suck at the moment due to how much neckbearding we would have to do in the AU tz due to Cal AU tz strength, but it would be doable. I am not sure we disagree about how the game works. We may have a semantic difference. When I talk about "doing faction war" I generally mean fighting for faction war sov. I realize most people do not mean that. Most people think random pvp that has nothing to do with fw sov is still doing faction war - as long as your corp is in faction war. Therefore as long as there is allot of fights around you then fw is not stagnating. IMO faction war is stagnant when no one cares about gaining sov for your side. When you say lots of people in gallente could fight for sov but don't (for whatever reason) IMO that means the sov system is stagnant. Thanatos Marathon wrote: Having said that, it would be a terrible idea. In fact, we don't even want to take Caldari home systems. Killing off all your targets is a great way to end up with no targets. - Than I agree here as well. Station lockouts are great for null sec where they don't want people coming to fight in their farms. (they literally refer to a ssytem of "farms and fields" favorably) But it doesn't suit so well in faction war where people often join specifically to pvp. That is why I think the station lockout rule should be eased. E.g., once a system is contested (or contested a certain percent) both sides should be able to dock. This would also mean people have some urgency to fight for a system before it is 90% contested. In any case what you describe is a clear mechanic where players are forced to either gain sov or promote pvp. Good mechanics would have the 2 go hand in hand and not compete against eachother. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1409	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:26:09 - [150] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: It's funny that you think there aren't goon alts in FW. They most assuredly do have/had alts in fw and they do/did run the missions. When lp was worth something they paid phenomenal amounts. I have run missions for all but the Caldari. The lp market continues to collapse but they are still too lucrative. Faction war missions do need a nerf. But they are in the most dangerous part of space so I think they should pay more than most other types of pvp. Also unlike ratting in null sec or running high sec missions where you can do that for about as long as you want, you need to dedicate at least a couple of hours straight to running these missions. At least if you really want to run them efficiently. I know I am one of the few who thinks that fw mission structure is actually excellent. People used to say they want more people to come to low sec but obviously your typical level 4 mission will not work. No one is going to be able to sit in kamela, or eha in a battleship and run damsel in distress unless they have a huge group ready to defend them. This form of mission where you travel through and try to do a relatively quick kill while also trying to dodge pirates is perfect. It gets people who are willing to risk low sec used to traveling through it (and learning not every gate in low sec is camped) and rewards their risks. There used to be allot of concern about stealth bombers but I really think having them run them is ok. They do not align all that quickly and you can get caught at the gate if someone is quick to warp to the beacon in an interceptor. I have seen the video where Gorski Carr ran a complete set of FW missions in 2 hours. But he ran them at would have been about 3AM central time US. He had absolutely no one interupt any of his missions. Not one person. He could just warp to the beacon every time without ever having to warp close to the mission while cloaked to see if anyone followed. If you run them during the US time zone you should expect to be chased out about 3 times during a run and probably lose about 1 bomber every 40 missions or so. And that assumes you are pretty careful. If anyone thinks running missions in a stealth bomber is absolutely safe I recommend they look at for example Greg Shumann's killboard for July and August. You will see that if you are good at catching them these missions can provide content. It might be safe if you are AU time zone but any other time you are at risk. It's true the stealth bombers are not that expensive but it does take time and logistics to reship if you want to finish the mission run and the pirates forcing you off course can turn a 2 hour run into a 4 hour run or even a run where you simply won't be able to finish some of the missions. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1546	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:35:13 - [151] - Quote Basically, you would be happy with no fights as long as you hold all the space. Understood. But you should understand that most people are the other way around with a few notable exceptions. Sov is the content driver, not the content. I know this is a hard concept for a bitter role-player such as yourself to understand.
Ares Desideratus Minmatar Brotherhood Ushra'Khan 283	Posted - 2015.10.20 23:39:03 - [152] - Quote The problem with FW is that even if we kill all the enemies we still can't take over their space in empire. What's the point in fighting for control if it is ultimately meaningless?
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1409	Posted - 2015.10.21 01:28:37 - [153] - Quote Crosi wrote: Wesdo]Basically, you would be happy with no fights as long as you hold all the space. Understood. But you should understand that most people are the other way around with a few notable exceptions. ??? What you say coudln't be further from the truth. I want fighting for sov to actually involve fighting. The problem is the current mechanics force a choice of either A)spending time gaining sov or B)spending time fighting. I have no interest at all in the current sov system of having alts in empty frigates d-plexing. That is why I left faction war so that I could maximize my targets. The changes I support clearly would increase pvp. 1) Timer rollbacks, 2)real time intel on where and when plexes are being run, and 3)easing the station lockouts so you don't drive away the pvp. These would all make sov warfare a real pvp creator not a pvp inhibitor. Thanatos just explained he didn't want win sov because he didn't want to drive away the pvp. I agree with him, and think the mechanics should be modified so that doesn't happen. Crosi wrote: Sov is the content driver, not the content. I know this is a hard concept for a bitter role-player such as yourself to understand. Also, to summarise your vision for FW; 1)- Free intel from NPC sources. Who needs player intel channels? 2)- Bombers can run FW missions to farm LP. 3)- Tier levels should be done on the boom and bust cycle of inferno which was almost universally condemned. 4)- PvP should be balanced at the 1 frigate vs 1 frigate level. 5)- Boosts should be on grid so they become unusable by all but the largest fleet in the area at any given time and nano fleets are practically impossible to boost for. 6)- Complains about stagnation but then says station lockouts are bad. The single largest conflict driver over the last 2 years. Im sure there are more terrible ideas that you advocate for, that was just off the top of my head. Crosi you never actually quote me because you always want to twist things. Here are some ideas I think we should kick around for faction war: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6038178#post6038178 As far as what you wrote let me briefly address each: 1)Clearly player run intel channels are unable to drive out rabbit plexers. Why when ccp proposes a navy maulus with an extra point does everyone instantly think they intended this for faction war plexes?? The player intel channels need help. Intel tools that give us real time intel on plexes being run would drastically increase the amount of pvp per plex and supplement the player run intel channels. That null sec players get intel about their assets being attacked does not mean they no longer need player intel channels. It does however allow them to defend their space in pvp. It means the strategic aspects can rise to another level. More intel means more data. More data means more complex strategies can happen. 2)Level 4 Mission lp amounts need to be nerfed whether they are run in bombers or cloak/mwd ishtars. Missions donGÇÖt effect sov so I really donGÇÖt care about them too much except the amount of lp they give is killing all lp markets. Yep I donGÇÖt really care if bombers can run faction war missions or not. If bombers can run them they should simply pay less than if you need a hac or bs to run them. I do think the missions should be balanced so one faction doesnGÇÖt have easy missions and the others donGÇÖt. The travel and blitz attack mechanic is a good mechanic to bring people to low sec to do pve. 3) Inferno paid way too much. But the cashout system made people interested in gaining sov and brought the militias some higher level strategy on how to do it. All factions hit tier 5 cashouts, except amarr that hit tier 4, so no faction was ever a complete bust. Every faction had a boom. It was an exciting time to be in faction war. It was never nearly as stagnant as the current system. It also rewarded people to stick with their faction instead of jumping to the higher tier faction. The cashout had issues that needed to be addressed. 1) the payments were way to high and 2) they had to do some tweaks to ensure it would not be beneficial to have alts bust flip your own system. 3) There were tons of other issues that ccp did address such as huge disparate between the rats in each plex etc. But those were separate issues from cashout versus our current forever grind model. 4)I honestly donGÇÖt even know what that means and of course never suggested that. 5)I think ogb are a cancer for eve. Put them on grid or get rid of them, whatever. Even if forced on grid they would need to be nerfed. But having them be so powerful, when they are not even present in the fight, is crazy dumb. Their rise in use has in fact corresponded with a huge drop of people signing on. There is plenty of evidence that suggests this timing is not pure coincidence. You of course ignore the evidence because your boosted garmur makes you feel special. 6)Driving your enemy far away also decreases content. IMO there would be more pvp if the station lockout rule was eased. Keeping enemies separated is generally not good for pvp. Look at null sec. The station lockout rule has also reduced variety of places you can roam. Pre-lockout you could place ships throughout the warzone and fight all sorts of different small groups. Now you have fewer larger groups and fewer systems to go to if you want fights. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 835	Posted - 2015.10.21 13:54:16 - [154] - Quote Apart from Gallente FW, all FW missions can be done in a stealth bomber. Fix it so Gallente can run FW missions in a Stealth bomber and then all are balanced. Should they be able to be run in a bomber? I don't see why not. I think the people complaining about the FW mission runners, are the ones who can't catch them and don't have the skills trained to fly a stealth bomber; so they can run them themselves.
Colt Blackhawk bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions 313	Posted - 2015.10.21 14:29:04 - [155] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Apart from Gallente FW, all FW missions can be done in a stealth bomber. Fix it so Gallente can run FW missions in a Stealth bomber and then all are balanced. Should they be able to be run in a bomber? I don't see why not. I think the people complaining about the FW mission runners, are the ones who can't catch them and don't have the skills trained to fly a stealth bomber; so they can run them themselves. May I write you have no clue?! I was in NC and there have been whole alt corps of fw bomber toons in minnie militia. I am complaining about fw mission payments. I had bomber toons in three militias. Now only two :P I had tons of minnie bomber kills the last three montsh since I came back. But at the end you catch always the less experienced ones. Not to mention the guy who is quadboxing caracals for missions, the other minnie guy who is always with his falcon alt and the tons of other guys who have always their hecate alts next door or the really bad guys like this CAAN0N guy from church of aweseome in calmil who has his ishtar minnie alt and plenty others and causing civil militia wars everywhere^^ So yep you have been completely wrong. Edit: I HATE YOU POCKET!!! GRRRR!!!! You know I really enjoyed it here in curse..... Edit2: I think CAAN0N really deserves his own thread meanwhile, regarding all the drama he is causing^^ [09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f**** amarr flag and s* on their smoking wrecks.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 835	Posted - 2015.10.21 15:05:59 - [156] - Quote Colt Blackhawk wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: Apart from Gallente FW, all FW missions can be done in a stealth bomber. Fix it so Gallente can run FW missions in a Stealth bomber and then all are balanced. Should they be able to be run in a bomber? I don't see why not. I think the people complaining about the FW mission runners, are the ones who can't catch them and don't have the skills trained to fly a stealth bomber; so they can run them themselves. May I write you have no clue?! I was in NC and there have been whole alt corps of fw bomber toons in minnie militia. I am complaining about fw mission payments. I had bomber toons in three militias. Now only two :P I had tons of minnie bomber kills the last three montsh since I came back. But at the end you catch always the less experienced ones. Not to mention the guy who is quadboxing caracals for missions, the other minnie guy who is always with his falcon alt and the tons of other guys who have always their hecate alts next door or the really bad guys like this CAAN0N guy from church of aweseome in calmil who has his ishtar minnie alt and plenty others and causing civil militia wars everywhere^^ So yep you have been completely wrong. Edit: I HATE YOU POCKET!!! GRRRR!!!! You know I really enjoyed it here in curse..... Edit2: I think CAAN0N really deserves his own thread meanwhile, regarding all the drama he is causing^^ So? They are using alts to minimize/maximize the risk/reward. Nothing says you can't do the same. Nerf the FW mission payouts and you will just see a rise in farming alts. Hell, as far as I am concerned. all missions should be replaced with burner-style missions.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1546	Posted - 2015.10.21 16:19:57 - [157] - Quote Cearain wrote: As far as what you wrote let me briefly address each: 1)Clearly player run intel channels are unable to drive out rabbit plexers. Why when ccp proposes a navy maulus with an extra point does everyone instantly think they intended this for faction war plexes?? The player intel channels need help. Intel tools that give us real time intel on plexes being run would drastically increase the amount of pvp per plex and supplement the player run intel channels. That null sec players get intel about their assets being attacked does not mean they no longer need player intel channels. It does however allow them to defend their space in pvp. It means the strategic aspects can rise to another level. More intel means more data. More data means more complex strategies can happen. 2)Level 4 Mission lp amounts need to be nerfed whether they are run in bombers or cloak/mwd ishtars. Missions donGÇÖt effect sov so I really donGÇÖt care about them too much except the amount of lp they give is killing all lp markets. Yep I donGÇÖt really care if bombers can run faction war missions or not. If bombers can run them they should simply pay less than if you need a hac or bs to run them. I do think the missions should be balanced so one faction doesnGÇÖt have easy missions and the others donGÇÖt. The travel and blitz attack mechanic is a good mechanic to bring people to low sec to do pve. 3) Inferno paid way too much. But the cashout system made people interested in gaining sov and brought the militias some higher level strategy on how to do it. All factions hit tier 5 cashouts, except amarr that hit tier 4, so no faction was ever a complete bust. Every faction had a boom. It was an exciting time to be in faction war. It was never nearly as stagnant as the current system. It also rewarded people to stick with their faction instead of jumping to the higher tier faction. The cashout had issues that needed to be addressed. 1) the payments were way to high and 2) they had to do some tweaks to ensure it would not be beneficial to have alts bust flip your own system. 3) There were tons of other issues that ccp did address such as huge disparate between the rats in each plex etc. But those were separate issues from cashout versus our current forever grind model. 4)I honestly donGÇÖt even know what that means and of course never suggested that. 5)I think ogb are a cancer for eve. Put them on grid or get rid of them, whatever. Even if forced on grid they would need to be nerfed. But having them be so powerful, when they are not even present in the fight, is crazy dumb. Their rise in use has in fact corresponded with a huge drop of people signing on. There is plenty of evidence that suggests this timing is not pure coincidence. You of course ignore the evidence because your boosted garmur makes you feel special. 6)Driving your enemy far away also decreases content. IMO there would be more pvp if the station lockout rule was eased. Keeping enemies separated is generally not good for pvp. Look at null sec. The station lockout rule has also reduced variety of places you can roam. Pre-lockout you could place ships throughout the warzone and fight all sorts of different small groups. Now you have fewer larger groups and fewer systems to go to if you want fights. 1- You intel channels may be inadequate. But ours dont seem to be fine. Coupled with the already expansive intel in the FW window its easy to keep track of whats happening. 2- I actually agree with you here, to an extent. however, bringing people to low sec in pve ships is stupid. Thereforultimately a better idea to just remove them. 3- No, inferno was horrible. You have admitted in the past that you didnt do any of the hard work around making it happen. In minmatar space you could sometimes have to bash 40 systems in a couple of days. Imagine that in gal space where you would have to bash 80+. Having dozens of vulnerable systems for weeks on end is absurd and doesnt represent 'caring about sov'. Not to mention that it wouldnt work at all now its impossible to over-plex a system indefinitely. 4- Is really referring to how often and hard you complain about fairness at the solo level and the injustice of people using boosters. 5- The drop in players has also corresponded with many other RL and IG changes. Pointing at one particular thing and laying blame at its feet while providing only the slightest of anecdotal evidence which is easily contradicted. 6- I was against station lockouts. Because i was lazy. There is no denying the extent that they have forced factions to work together and with their allies to bring about a content type that is simply not available anywhere else in EVE. Remove station lockouts and we go directly back to the; "hey, theres someone in a a plex in system" "nevermind, it makes no difference if i stay docked or go fight"
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1409	Posted - 2015.10.21 16:52:54 - [158] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: 1- You intel channels may be inadequate. But ours dont seem to be. Coupled with the already expansive intel in the FW window its easy to keep track of whats happening. So again my question. Why when they give the navy maulus an extra point does everyone think that is a reaction to faction war plexes? Is that working as intended? Again the player run intel channels are not enough to drive away the rabbits that either dplex in empty frigates or oplex at the far side from the warp in. Crosi Wesdo wrote: 2- I actually agree with you here, to an extent. however, bringing people to low sec in pve ships is stupid. Thereforultimately a better idea to just remove them. I think I would hope for baby steps. First they come to pve and try to avoid the pirates. They travel through large portions of low sec and realize that it isn't so scary after all. Hopefully they may eventually decide to come and pvp. But even if they just come for the pve, I think some people in low sec are happy to get a few kills of pve ships. Better than them just staying in high sec. I only caught a few stealth bombers myself but I was happy to catch the ones I did. Crosi Wesdo wrote: 3- No, inferno was horrible. You have admitted in the past that you didnt do any of the hard work around making it happen. In minmatar space you could sometimes have to bash 40 systems in a couple of days. Imagine that in gal space where you would have to bash 80+. Having dozens of vulnerable systems for weeks on end is absurd and doesnt represent 'caring about sov'. Not to mention that it wouldnt work at all now its impossible to over-plex a system indefinitely.. "Inferno" had many problems that were not related to the cashout system. The cashout system (wherein I mean the system where people earned lp at the same rate but the higher tiers allowed them to get discounted prices to "cashout" their lp) was much better than the current model. The Cashout system required the militia to work together toward common goals. It removed an incentive for people to jump to the higher tier militia. It was not stagnant. Honestly, I am surprised you can say that with a straight face. Leaving a system vulnerable of a few weeks is much better than no one carring at all about a system for years. The fact that militias would get their **** together to do these huge bunker bashes in a few days, and did it multiple times in the five months we had the cashout systems, demonstrates it was not stagnant. But whatever this is not that big of a deal. Other issues with faction war are more pressing. Crosi Wesdo wrote: 6- I was against station lockouts. Because i was lazy. There is no denying the extent that they have forced factions to work together and with their allies to bring about a content type that is simply not available anywhere else in EVE. Remove station lockouts and we go directly back to the; "hey, theres someone in a a plex in system" "nevermind, it makes no difference if i stay docked or go fight" Currently it doesn't matter. You can just wait until he leaves and then put your alt in an empty frigate to dplex it. But if their getting the system contested meant that the enemy militia could all of a sudden dock in that system, then it would mean something. You would no longer think its fine to let him finish the plex. You would want to get out there and try to kill him. Because if you didn't you might find the enemy militia all of a sudden shows up in mass with lots of ships stockpiled in your station and you no longer have the upper hand in that system. What level of contested a system would need to be for both sides to dock is negotiable. But the current all or nothing system is just blob inducing and creates the problem thanatos pointed to. Why drive our enemies away when we want pvp? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Dr darkside Bath Salt Zombies 0	Posted - 2015.10.21 18:35:38 - [159] - Quote 1) OMG cant believe ur still banging on bout npc intel channel 2)make missions like burners therefore you have to fit kinda a pvp fit and should hold your own. leave the becons detectable to all but reduce LP payout. 3)Inferno nearly broke the game people in bombers doing riskless pve even out incomed lvl5 mission runners who have to commit a carrier or shiny stuff (thats fkd up in risk v reward) also the over plex and bashes sucked big time.. Yes they were also stagnent caldaris mashed over gals cos everyone dogpiled there i think gals may have managed 1 or 2 cashouts.. minmatar was even worse the only reason amarr got a cashout was because nulli joined and flipped bunkers with supers in 1 night and even they quit at T4... i also remember people making false corps in the other side just to flip systems so it could be farmed back again.... (broken as ****) 4) concerning ogb ccps sub level is dropping atm i dont think they would risk alot more unsubs because of usless alts either that or it will go bk to the old way of falcon alts 5) station lockouts are great and are conflict drivers imo you want the option of multiple reships through out the region then fight for the right to it
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1409	Posted - 2015.10.21 19:31:25 - [160] - Quote Dr darkside wrote: 1) OMG cant believe ur still banging on bout npc intel channel 2)make missions like burners therefore you have to fit kinda a pvp fit and should hold your own. leave the becons detectable to all but reduce LP payout. 3)Inferno nearly broke the game people in bombers doing riskless pve even out incomed lvl5 mission runners who have to commit a carrier or shiny stuff (thats fkd up in risk v reward) also the over plex and bashes sucked big time.. Yes they were also stagnent caldaris mashed over gals cos everyone dogpiled there i think gals may have managed 1 or 2 cashouts.. minmatar was even worse the only reason amarr got a cashout was because nulli joined and flipped bunkers with supers in 1 night and even they quit at T4... i also remember people making false corps in the other side just to flip systems so it could be farmed back again.... (broken as ****) 4) concerning ogb ccps sub level is dropping atm i dont think they would risk alot more unsubs because of usless alts either that or it will go bk to the old way of falcon alts 5) station lockouts are great and are conflict drivers imo you want the option of multiple reships through out the region then fight for the right to it OMG it's a forum alt posting in warfare and tactics. 1) yes I still recomend giving players intel because faction war sov is still won by rabbit plexers. I will continue to bang on about better intel tools for pvpers as long as that is the case. 2) you either never ran a burner mission or your never pvped. If you want to claim otherwise, mr. forum alt, then please show us the burner mission fits that you think are also good pvp fits. 3)Amarr was already on the way to a cashout before nulli came. Also the amarr didn't really have an issue with fielding the firepower to flip but I think nulli, for security reasons, wanted to do the flip themselves. I think the war zone cal and gallente flipped four times and caldari was about to do another flip when ccp screwed them over with the patch. Having the war zone flip flop 4 times in 5 months is anything but stagnant. There is no question that the payouts in inferno were too large. But that was not a result of the cashout system itself. They made everything in the lp store like 1/8th the cost when you were at tier 5 - lp and isk. And that was when fw lp went for about 5k isk per lp. That was too much obviously. They could still employ the system to get people active in the sov war (to get rid of the lp that is building in their wallets) but not make it so dramatic. This would address the issue raised in the thread where someone suggested we only unlock certain items at a higher tier. That is it would give militias incentives to do at least an occassional war zone push. 4) It's true removing the cancer might involve some short term pain. But if it ever wants to be healthy that is the best thing to do. I think everyone recognizes that. The only reason to leave it in is if ccp wants to sell eve. Which I do not believe is the case. They will get rid of ogb. I would just like to see if plexes could sort of be like seperate systems so if you don't bring your booster in the plex you don't get the boosts. It seems silly that they only allow frigates in novice plexes but really they let the benefits of a Strategic cruiser in those plexes. 5) Did you say fight for the right to dock? Or do you mean have my stabbed alts orbit buttons for the right to it? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1546	Posted - 2015.10.21 19:38:30 - [161] - Quote Come see how well your stabbed alt works at helping you dock in any of the stations that i have ships in.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1409	Posted - 2015.10.21 19:59:40 - [162] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Come see how well your stabbed alt works at helping you dock in any of the stations that i have ships in. Thanks for the invite. But I think I would rather go to a power point presentation on ball cancer than play FW alt plexing games. Maybe ask these guys: 1. Orn Lorn 2. Monk-Black fast 3. xFleuryx Last I checked ccp's api dump they were the top vp gainers in all of faction war in the past week. Obviously they must be good pvpers so you might want to check their killboards and get an idea of how they fit their ships. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1546	Posted - 2015.10.21 20:15:21 - [163] - Quote Yes, im sure a good proportion of their LP coms from attacking systems that people have ships in.
Cheeswrinkle Ongrard Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops 10	Posted - 2015.10.21 21:26:57 - [164] - Quote Cearain wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Come see how well your stabbed alt works at helping you dock in any of the stations that i have ships in. Thanks for the invite. But I think I would rather go to a power point presentation on ball cancer than play FW alt plexing games. Maybe ask these guys: 1. Orn Lorn 2. Monk-Black fast 3. xFleuryx Last I checked ccp's api dump they were the top vp gainers in all of faction war in the past week. Obviously they must be good pvpers so you might want to check their killboards and get an idea of how they fit their ships. little off topic here but I have been wondering for a long time now how you are able to check the vp gain on ppl care to explain?
exiik Shardani Terpene Conglomerate 30	Posted - 2015.10.21 21:49:48 - [165] - Quote some easy things to improving FW KM for iHubs -> to see pilots who participate in militias intermilittias/interwarzones gates (what about Arzad-Kedama and Egmar-Agoze?) just for militia members (there is no interest to make neutrals/powerblocs move better) make system upgrades usable - pos fuel reduction for militias, free repair service at station, me sale for manufacturing, but only for militia members (they spend time and LP's, not neuts) autosuspect for neuts entering fw plex make ranks usable and makes every promotion with standing + (because all demotions = standing loss) + how solve tier switching -> just change system of LP rewards, if Amarr pilots in C/G WZ, he just get Caldary LP (apply caldary tier) .... intermilita farming alts influence rapidly decrease
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1409	Posted - 2015.10.21 21:55:44 - [166] - Quote Cheeswrinkle Ongrard wrote: little off topic here but I have been wondering for a long time now how you are able to check the vp gain on ppl care to explain? https://api.eveonline.com/eve/FacWarTopStats.xml.aspx There are 2 problems with this 1) afaik if you cross plex you don't register as getting vp. 2)Each plex is worth 20 vp so if one pilot does a plex he gets 20 vp. If 20 pilots do a plex then they each get 20 vp. It used to be you would get 100 vp per plex but since inferno it is only 20 vp per plex. VP is what decides how contested a system is. They wanted to slow things down for inferno. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 104	Posted - 2015.10.21 22:47:14 - [167] - Quote Cearain wrote: 3) There were tons of other issues that ccp did address such as huge disparate between the rats in each plex etc. But those were separate issues from cashout versus our current forever grind model. One of the greatest reasons we hit teir 5 -- touched it for a MOMENT -- was the fact that in Inferno you could do a Medium with a fast frigate that didn't need any weapons. When passive timers were rolled out and NPC's needing to be cleared was obligatory, this changed everything. We never hit 5 again, but sometimes high 4. The rat had major deeps, then major tank. Missions cannot be churned in SB's, but only in high SP hulls. If your argument that SB's can be caught, so much more HAC's that don't exactly turn on the dime either. Your reasons for being okay with SB's but not mwd+cloak Ishtars is blind to these practically being so similar, with the benefit to anything that can sport a Cov Ops cloak -- which is not an Ishtar. Tier is most definitely influenced by missioning in Amarr/Cal/Min warzones when you can game 500k/1m LP in a single t3/4 night. Just bump the lvl 1's to 3's as you pass by on your merry way, wiping your tears of laughter with electrical data slabs of Isk. Cearain wrote: 4) It's true removing the cancer might involve some short term pain. But if it ever wants to be healthy that is the best thing to do. I think everyone recognizes that. The only reason to leave it in is if ccp wants to sell eve. Which I do not believe is the case. They will get rid of ogb. I would just like to see if plexes could sort of be like seperate systems so if you don't bring your booster in the plex you don't get the boosts. It seems silly that they only allow frigates in novice plexes but really they let the benefits of a Strategic cruiser in those plexes. I agree with that one, but I doubt the fleet mechanics will ever be changed for this. More likely they will release a new mod that has a ranged boost of 300km. That would be more realistic than reconstructing how fleet bonuses are measured, imo. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 104	Posted - 2015.10.22 02:29:31 - [168] - Quote exiik Shardani wrote: some easy things to improving FW KM for iHubs -> to see pilots who participate in militias intermilittias/interwarzones gates (what about Arzad-Kedama and Egmar-Agoze?) just for militia members (there is no interest to make neutrals/powerblocs move better) make system upgrades usable - pos fuel reduction for militias, free repair service at station, me sale for manufacturing, but only for militia members (they spend time and LP's, not neuts) autosuspect for neuts entering fw plex make ranks usable and makes every promotion with standing + (because all demotions = standing loss) + how solve tier switching -> just change system of LP rewards, if Amarr pilots in C/G WZ, he just get Caldary LP (apply caldary tier) .... intermilita farming alts influence rapidly decrease KM for hubs would be great, but their current payout is so poor. Their accrued value should be determined by how long they have remained in control of opposing side, incentivizing attacks on home systems. the POS fuel bonuses were mentioned for FW, but never implemented. ranks can be put to use in allowing the policing of highsec. Or that you should at least not appear as a criminal in your own faction space; which shares ties to how we become criminals: autosuspect for neutrals activating a FW facility would be great. Always shoot first. *cross LP rewards is bad. When/if respective LP store items are devalued it will only encourage people to plex allied LP. The only way low SP farmer alts influence anything now is through defensive plexing. Allow us to destroy the plex structure to cause a count-down for despawn, whether we stick around for it or not -- but will freeze despawn and tick normally if an enemy is present and is clearing NPC (this would probably require multiple counters). Problem solved. No more 15 unopened plexes in a home system. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
per Terpene Conglomerate 77	Posted - 2015.10.22 06:33:05 - [169] - Quote exiik Shardani wrote: some easy things to improving FW KM for iHubs -> to see pilots who participate in militias intermilittias/interwarzones gates (what about Arzad-Kedama and Egmar-Agoze?) just for militia members (there is no interest to make neutrals/powerblocs move better) make system upgrades usable - pos fuel reduction for militias, free repair service at station, me sale for manufacturing, but only for militia members (they spend time and LP's, not neuts) autosuspect for neuts entering fw plex make ranks usable and makes every promotion with standing + (because all demotions = standing loss) + how solve tier switching -> just change system of LP rewards, if Amarr pilots in C/G WZ, he just get Caldary LP (apply caldary tier) .... intermilita farming alts influence rapidly decrease 1- yes pls 2 - this isnt good idea imo, there will be more useless ppl in militia that will be there just for using this gate system with the soon(tm-maybe never) to be implemented whoever can join militia 3 - pos is obsolete system soon with new structures 4 - neuts entering plex will get suspect or something, its already confirmed from csm minutes - noone knows when that happens though might be years again before something changes in militia 5 - fixing standigs today is too damn easy, anyone can hop militia which is the biggest issue FW shoud be about fighting not farming
Silverbackyererse The Church of Awesome 162	Posted - 2015.10.22 07:43:15 - [170] - Quote per wrote: FW shoud be about fighting not farming +1 Missions are a legacy from days when there was no other way to get LP in FW. Just remove them completely CCP! Defensive LP into hubs and not into peoples pockets.

Portmanteau oooh ponies 143	Posted - 2015.10.22 11:58:15 - [171] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: ColdBeauty wrote: Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. 450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? You don't get ISK from FW missions. You get discounted items and sink ISK. If all those "idiot" goons moved into FW and made their "money" farming missions, there'd be no ISK in the economy to purchase the items you trade in the LP store. Where'd you think the ISK came from when you sold your items on the market? Nowhere? You get isk indirectly or nobodywould bother with them. The insertion of a loyalty point store middle man doesnt change the fact that isk is the end result.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1546	Posted - 2015.10.22 14:23:54 - [172] - Quote I think his point is that very little isk is generated. Therefor the isk value of LP is relative only to the demand of the product its used to create. To a large extent, nerfing the amount of LP reward will simply throttle the speed of modules to market and inflate their price and as such the value of isk/LP.
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 104	Posted - 2015.10.22 15:51:43 - [173] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: I think his point is that very little isk is generated. Therefor the isk value of LP is relative only to the demand of the product its used to create. To a large extent, nerfing the amount of LP reward will simply throttle the speed of modules to market and inflate their price and as such the value of isk/LP. Thanks for translating that. Isk is actually generated during missions (along with LP, just like a normal mission), about 2m-4m depending on the mission and if you can clear it soon enough to receive the bonus ISK, otherwise it is half that, roughly. Nerfing payouts by tier across every activity would do little, as it would balance out for farmers in that price hike and only harm plexing income. You can burn through missions as fast as you can, but you can't make a timer count down faster. The disparity between gains per hour will still be quite stupid. I'm leaning more and more to just axe missions out once and for all.. But I'll still try to push the unqualified advanced hull restriction on activating the mission acceleration gates. There's gotta be something the winning side can still do if they are on top. Moar medals, (once this is balanced) would be nice. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Thorin Matarielle Shirak SkunkWorks 22	Posted - 2015.10.22 19:02:03 - [174] - Quote I'm "kinda" disappointed with the changes. These patrols will solve all our problems it seems. Nullsec gets timer rollbacks while FW doesnt despite the fact that we are asking for it since years. But I really don't know what do we expect when "our" CSM (Gorski) said that FW is about PVE and farming and sad but true that FW is listed under business. PIC But I am very happy we have a lot of new skins and navy griffin...
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1410	Posted - 2015.10.22 19:26:59 - [175] - Quote Overall the lp store is an isk sink, and fw missions are likely a net isk sink. E.g., Running 2 level 4 missions pays about 8 mill isk and 100k lp. Cashing out the 100k lp will usually mean paying more than 8 mill isk to the npc lp store. But FW is killing the lp stores. LP payouts need to be reduced. I would suggest something along these lines: All plexing be at current tier 2 payouts. Plexing pay would not change based on the tier a faction is at. If your faction is at tier 5 mission payouts should be the current tier 3 payouts. If your faction is at tier 4 the missions should pay out at the current tier 2 level. If you faction is at tier 3 or lower they would pay out at the current tier 1 level. This would increase the pay of plexing relative to missioning. It would also create a natural balance. As one faction gained sov/tiers more people would mission for that faction. Missioning does not effect sov but it would eventually decrease the value of that lp allowing the other factions to have an incentive for their pilots to plex. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Arla Sarain 684	Posted - 2015.10.22 19:30:06 - [176] - Quote Portmanteau wrote: Arla Sarain wrote: ColdBeauty wrote: Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. 450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? You don't get ISK from FW missions. You get discounted items and sink ISK. If all those "idiot" goons moved into FW and made their "money" farming missions, there'd be no ISK in the economy to purchase the items you trade in the LP store. Where'd you think the ISK came from when you sold your items on the market? Nowhere? You get isk indirectly or nobodywould bother with them. The insertion of a loyalty point store middle man doesnt change the fact that isk is the end result. The remark was intended to demonstrate that sticking with nullsec ISK fauceting and preferring it over FW LP trading is hardly idiotic, as the quoted person kept insisting. Whilst ISK is generated by missions, it's not a lot. The ISK obtained by trading in LP store items isn't newly generated. It simply changed ownership. That has to come from somewhere. The end result of LP store transactions isn't +ISK, its -ISK. Your own net might be +ISK after you sell it on the player market, but overall there is less ISK in the game. If everybody from nullsec moved to FW and started farming LP and trading the items on the market, who would have the ISK to buy all the stuff coming from LP transactions that remove ISK and overall ISK coming in the game suffers? The ISK/h rate from FW would reduce.
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 104	Posted - 2015.10.22 22:26:46 - [177] - Quote @Aria There are enough variations of LP items that it is hard enough to drive one item down in cost unless it is done all at once, as when the cash-outs were done. Even then, SFI's still sold at 20m and Firetails at 4m. Many Comet's get bought. Many Comet's die. LP items get sold, LP turns into ISK. I'm having a hard time turning your argument over in my head. The comparison to moon extractions, Sleeper loot, and even PI can be made, yet there they are. And so is ISK. Has it not occurred to you that these items have ENABLED some to tap pure isk faucets? Selling a datacore for a ship, which becomes an Ishtar that, after it's own turn sold, is turned into a null sec ratting ship... There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
sero Hita Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 30	Posted - 2015.10.22 22:28:02 - [178] - Quote Thorin Matarielle wrote: I'm "kinda" disappointed with the changes. These patrols will solve all our problems it seems. Nullsec gets timer rollbacks while FW doesnt despite the fact that we are asking for it since years. But I really don't know what do we expect when "our" CSM (Gorski) said that FW is about PVE and farming and sad but true that FW is listed under business. PIC But I am very happy we have a lot of new skins and navy griffin... I was also really dissapointed. But the funny thing is no one in my corp or militia seems to realize what is going on... also not on theese forums. I wrote someone in my corp that I expected an uproar when people realized what CCPs long term goals with FW are after the minutes was released... but I was very wrong... Even linking the minutes to my alliance did nothing... they don't read them and just keep discussing the same changes over and over again... "it is easy to fix fw, you just need xxxxx" "no, you just yyyy" " i have always meant zzzzz will be the best solution". They don't understand that theese discussions are futile. CCP will change no mechanics untill they are done using FW as a test field for their supposed more intelligent NPC AI for the rest of EVE. As a side bonus this will fix farmers according to CCP FW people kinda makes me think of hobbits for some reason... Docile, content, sitting around, smoking their pipe drinking ale in safety, while the world changes aorund them. Every time CCP changes something for null or highsec in a bad way the forums rises up with threadnaughts till CCP makes changes. When it happens with fw... nothing... perhaps we deserve what is coming...
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 104	Posted - 2015.10.22 22:43:21 - [179] - Quote sero Hita wrote: FW people kinda makes me think of hobbits for some reason... Docile, content, sitting around, smoking their pipe drinking ale in safety, while the world changes aorund them. Every time CCP changes something for null or highsec in a bad way the forums rises up with threadnaughts till CCP makes changes. When it happens with fw... nothing... perhaps we deserve what is coming... Maybe it's that we are busy actually playing the game and have shown ourselves willing and able to adapt to changes. We are hardy players that actually ENJOY playing Eve. Who would have thought! FW continues to get better, even if slowly. Two steps forward, one step back. The majority of players and influence are just not here in lowsec, sadly, even though the whole of Eve seems to love to wander on down here. We can argue about the tiercide changes and t1 rebalance, and how there has be no space that has benefited more in these changes than lowsec. We use all this crap. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Arla Sarain 685	Posted - 2015.10.22 23:11:25 - [180] - Quote Oreb Wing wrote: @Aria There are enough variations of LP items that it is hard enough to drive one item down in cost unless it is done all at once, as when the cash-outs were done. There are only so many items that are worth trading in after considering the LP store ISK costs. And I don't really see how this alleviates the risk of reducing the value of LP - the hypothetical was that NS people "get smart" and start farming FW missions, and obviously, not everyone is going to cash in on datacores or any one singular item alone... When factions swing into T2 and T3, the market prices drop for a broad range of items. Cos all of them are being traded in. Oreb Wing wrote: Even then, SFI's still sold at 20m and Firetails at 4m. Many Comet's get bought. Many Comet's die. LP items get sold, LP turns into ISK. I'm having a hard time turning your argument over in my head. The comparison to moon extractions, Sleeper loot, and even PI can be made, yet there they are. And so is ISK. Has it not occurred to you that these items have ENABLED some to tap pure isk faucets? Selling a datacore for a ship, which becomes an Ishtar that, after it's own turn sold, is turned into a null sec ratting ship... Again, in the extreme example that the majority of null population drop their NS activities for "greener pastures" in FW, a large chunk of liquid ISK will cease to flow into the game. But it doesn't even have to be that extreme. We already feel the reduction in ISK payout per LP, and that's just because several tens or hundreds of regular farmers are hopping on the bandwagon thinking FW Missions are good ISK per hour. It is now, but it won't be sustained. Unless you intend to believe in the fairytale that FW ISK/LP can be "reliably traded at 1000 every time". That's the argument. Our income is elastic, for the lack of better word. NS income is for the most part flat and doesn't scale with how the market reacts. Put enough people on FW missions and the income will drop - nerf applied. P.S. Moon extractions, Sleeper loot and PI are hardly an ISK sink when compared to LP store items. Whilst each may have their own associated one time fees, they ISK they require doesn't go into nothingness for the most part.

Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1410	Posted - 2015.10.22 23:22:32 - [181] - Quote Sero Your post made me chuckle. I think most of the people who couldn't stand the farm wars left. The notion that throwing npcs at FW farmers will hinder them is about as bad as the idea that throwing seeds at regular farmers will hinder them. I'm not sure its that people "adapted" as much as the people who don't mind that faction war involves alts in stabbed or empty frigates are all that is left and continuing to join. I used to be more passionate about the game but years of ccp promises remaining unfulfilled - such as better intel tools, and timer rollbacks has made me more detached. So I am not surprised that most people in faction war are fine with it, or pretty much gave up trying to help. There is no doubt that warfare and tactics is pretty much empty compared to how it was 3 years ago when ccp made some of these promises. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 104	Posted - 2015.10.23 02:38:31 - [182] - Quote A lot of people come in, eager to learn. They just don't get the help. Eve is s game you have to read into, and that is its greatest hurdle, in every aspect. From the new player experience to FW. As for Null bears joining FW in droves,I doubt very much, for much the same reason high sec mission runners wouldn't. Some People set their own goals and don't like variables, distractions, or the unexpected. There has to be better tools available, as you said, which explain concepts and expand awareness of changing environments. Not things that encourage you to be lazy. I don't like the idea of notifications when someone runs a timer in another constellation. In fact, of I'm not wrong, i think this information is already present in the FW window map grid. The system you hover your pointer over pulses and says, "Something something are currently being captured." Whatever delay it has, I'm not privy to. My own free time has been greatly reduced, but i still fly here and there. I can't wait for the t3d Small's change. I haven't seen that many AF's lately that weren't in a gang. As for timer rollbacks, I'm sure we'll see them soon too. I'm glad that the Null changes have made it glaringly obvious. One thing i would love to see is system upgradeability, where you can CHOOSE the bonus in system when you donate, with higher grade options only available at level V, like cyno inhibitor or the fuel bonus to towers. Heck, maybe even invasive bonuses that increase cost of fuel or station services to non -militia entities. I know we're not the only ones in lowsec, but some of these could be fun and there are many non-FW lowsec systems out there. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Fourteen Maken Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance 223	Posted - 2015.10.23 09:09:32 - [183] - Quote Silverbackyererse wrote: per wrote: FW shoud be about fighting not farming +1 Missions are a legacy from days when there was no other way to get LP in FW. Just remove them completely CCP! Defensive LP into hubs and not into peoples pockets. YES! please completely remove missions and buff lp payouts from plexing, or make some other pvp oriented mechanic to make up for it. I don't understand why anyone wants to keep missions in any shape or form, it brings all the parasites into the warzone like the one in this thread boasting about how he farms fw lp without contributing anything to the militia. Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war: The sinews of war; infinite money.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1410	Posted - 2015.10.23 13:57:15 - [184] - Quote I do think fw missions need to be nerfed relative to plexing - as I posted. But that will not fix faction war. More lp here and less there will not change the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem with faction war is this: You will gain more sov for your militia if you get 4 alts rabbit plexing than you will if you go out with a pvp ship and fight for plexes. As long as such boring gameplay is how you win sov then the sov game will remain broken. It doesn't matter if your add rewards to plexing or take them away. Nor does it matter what tier system you have, cashout, or current. As long as the bolded statement remains true fw sov will be broken. CCP knows how to fix the above and they even said they would do it. But that was about 3 years ago and they never followed through. At the last csm meeting they never even mentioned either fix. 1) timer rollbacks and 2) better intel tools. In particular real time intel about where plexes are being run so that organized pvpers can respond before the plex is captured. If we had real time intel about where plexes were being run then the guy with 4 rabbit plexing accounts would quickly find his alts are getting killed or chased out before he can finish a plex. If he is killed or constantly chased out then he would lose his time spent. It would no longer be as cost effective as simply fitting your ship as best you can for pvp and choosing to stay and fight. The bolded statement would no longer be true and faction war would be fixed. It wouldn't take any lp, isk to do it. It would just be a matter of those 2 changes and fighting for faction war sov would be a fun and challenging game. This has been the case for years, and for years I see new faces saying we just need this bit of candy or we need to take away this bit of candy. (Yes I say that too because some changes would be better, but I want to make it clear here, such changes won't actually fix the root of the problem.) I hear people ask for more benefits and consequences. But tying benefits and conseqences to a boring mechanic will never fix the ultimate problem and really only makes it worse. CCP has given fw so much treasure the weight of it crushed all of the lp stores. All of them, including those that aren't even fw lp stores! Yet the sov game is still broken. I know this will fall on deaf ears. More players will say we need to have this or that candy. And CCP will continue to tweak the candy like they have been for years. But at base fw will remain broken. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1547	Posted - 2015.10.23 15:38:30 - [185] - Quote I really do struggle to grasp what you think is so broken about FW. One day its boosts, next day its that you think people should be always on a grand campaign to take all their adversaries space, next day its because there might be a farmer running a plex in a system no one cares about that only free intel can fix. One more time, for the sake of futility. Boosts are in a good place in the gang/fleet meta. Occupancy war is the driver not the content. Giving people free intel will not suddenly make them interested in going to a back end system to watch a farmer safe up and cloak. Better fix to farmers, which really is the only slight problem at the moment, would be to force them into pvp fits. The subtlest way to do this would be to simply not allow stabbed or cloak capable ships to run a timer. They can still enter a plex but the button will ignore them. This would mean multi boxing farmers would have to pay a lot more attention or lose a lot more ships. People might even roam around back-end systems if they are gonna get a cheesy low sp kill mail that they dont have to fit 2/3 scrams for. As for making it fun to fight for FW occupancy, That really is a personal choice that you can make right now. I can undock and go plex uuna for a pretty boring time. Or i can undock and go plex hasmijaala / okkamon / kehjari / rakapas and have a fight within a minute or two of turning up. if you are under the impression that you can make people care as much about a non-station dead end system as they do for their home-base, not only are you mistaken, but nothing you have never made a suggestion that would make that happen. One final note, The LP store ecosystem was crusted by inferno which you love so much. Since that was fixed the LP stores quickly recovered and are now in a place resembling pre-inferno status-quo. Fw dudes, selling a narrow group of mods and ships, and level 5 mission runners cashing out implants.
per Terpene Conglomerate 79	Posted - 2015.10.23 16:01:34 - [186] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Boosts are in a good place in the gang/fleet meta i dont even know what to say to this ... in my eyes ogbs are quite broken and if you think they are completely ok, then we have nothing to talk about another thing, those changes for fw mentioned in csm minutes ... anyone know when they will be implemented? not like they are something big but atleast something
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1419	Posted - 2015.10.23 16:45:51 - [187] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: I really do struggle to grasp what you think is so broken about FW. I put it in bold and underlined it. Again this is what is broken with faction war: You will gain more sov for your militia if you get 4 alts rabbit plexing than you will if you go out with a pvp ship and fight for plexes. I really think the more people think about that, the more they will understand the root of the problem. Crosi Wesdo wrote: One day its boosts, ... Better fix to farmers, which really is the only slight problem at the moment, would be to force them into pvp fits. The subtlest way to do this would be to simply not allow stabbed or cloak capable ships to run a timer. Removing OGB would help the whole game including fw. But ogb are not why faction war in particular has always been broken. Stabs really are not necessary to rabbit plex. Neither is a cloak. Even if CCP did those changes the bold and underlined statement would remain true. So faction war would still be broken. Crosi Wesdo wrote: Not to say there are not other things that can be improved on in FW. But constantly saying that every slight or non-problem 'BREAKS' FW seems like angsty alarmism and is simply embarrassing to read. I donGÇÖt say that. There is a difference between saying something like nerfing fw mission pay would improve faction war, and saying the fw mission pay GÇ£breaksGÇ¥ faction war. Crosi Wesdo wrote: As for making it fun to fight for FW occupancy, That really is a personal choice that you can make right now. I can undock and go plex uuna for a pretty boring time. Or i can undock and go plex hasmijaala / okkamon / kehjari / rakapas and have a fight within a minute or two of turning up. Sure you can go get some fights in plexes. I used to enjoy that, and it was good fun. But if you decide you want to do pvp with random dudes around a plex you will not be gaining fw sov nearly as much as the guy with 4 alts rabbit plexing. So ultimately pvpers stop caring about sov. And that is why the sov system is stagnant and broken. Crosi Wesdo wrote: if you are under the impression that you can make people care as much about a non-station dead end system as they do for their home-base, not only are you mistaken, but nothing you have never made a suggestion that would make that happen. If a game is fun and challenging then more people will care about being good at it. If a game is a boring grind then fewer people will care about it. That is all I am saying. Maybe you disagree. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1548	Posted - 2015.10.23 17:47:36 - [188] - Quote Very minor changes to plexes, as in, no stabs and cloaks able to run buttons will fix farming. Your derogatory term 'rabbit' plexers is unwieldy. It seems you just use that to describe behavior you dont like. if an atron runs away from a daredevil, does that make him a rabbit plexer? If a condor runs away from a crapacal, does that make it a rabit plexer. If someone runs 4 accounts to plex, does that make him a rabbit plexer if his alts sometimes fight if he things they have a chance. If someone has 4 alts who dont fight but his main hangs around to defend them, are they rabbit plexers? My alts have 2 stabs fitted but i still sometimes fight and sometimes win, are they rabbit plexers? 'Rabbit' plexers is a useless term you use in an angsty way to be derogatory to other players choices. The global problem is only stabs and cloaks. Once stabbed and cloaky ships cannot run buttons, then they are much more vulnerable and then it comes down to your ability to catch them, which is half the fun. OGB are great at the gang fleet level, specially if they are off grid. It gives a potential advantage to the side that is willing to try and disrupt the hostile fleets boosts. This creates a different and very important role for anyone interested in probing (assuming boosts get agro and cant sit on gates, but even then forcing them out of system can be an advantage).
per Terpene Conglomerate 80	Posted - 2015.10.23 18:22:55 - [189] - Quote Cearain wrote: Per: It is interesting that those FW changes are not on the roadmap ccp put out. thats the reason im asking, if someone possibly knows something more (i wasnt able to find anything) personaly i hope those changes will be put in in next big expansion (the one with citadels etc) but my inner voice telling me i definitely shouldnt be so optimistic because - csm minutes were to me like: "yeah we will do this in some future... maybe", but i already heard that somewhere someday in the distant past :) would be nice if some csm or ccp could insert some more info here Crosi Wesdo wrote: Very minor changes to plexes, as in, no stabs and cloaks able to run buttons will fix farming. Your derogatory term 'rabbit' plexers is unwieldy. It seems you just use that to describe behavior you dont like. if an atron runs away from a daredevil, does that make him a rabbit plexer? If a condor runs away from a crapacal, does that make it a rabit plexer. If someone runs 4 accounts to plex, does that make him a rabbit plexer if his alts sometimes fight if he things they have a chance. If someone has 4 alts who dont fight but his main hangs around to defend them, are they rabbit plexers? My alts have 2 stabs fitted but i still sometimes fight and sometimes win, are they rabbit plexers? 'Rabbit' plexers is a useless term you use in an angsty way to be derogatory to other players choices. The global problem is only stabs and cloaks. Once stabbed and cloaky ships cannot run buttons, then they are much more vulnerable and then it comes down to your ability to catch them, which is half the fun. . cloaks are already disabled in plexes(no ability to cloak in plex range) and ppl that used cloaks for catching farmers cant do that now - was llike neutral change to fw i agree on the stabs problem, ships with them just shouldnt be able to run the timer - but again its treating the symptoms not the problems and i much rather see something like timer rollbacks instead of some artificial restrictions on fitting of your ships btw condor usually doesnt have to run from caracals in novice plexes
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1548	Posted - 2015.10.23 18:31:10 - [190] - Quote Thats why my idea is better. Cloaks and stabs should be allowed inside a plex. But they simply should not effect the button. In this scenario you can still catch he farmer with no worry that they are going to be stabbed.

Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1419	Posted - 2015.10.23 19:08:47 - [191] - Quote "Rabbit plexing" means people who run plexes with the intent to run if anyone comes or at least have no intent on fighting. I don't mean it derogatory. In fact as I said it is the best way to gain sov in faction war. When I was interested in winning sov I did it myself. Unlike you I do not blame players for playing the game according to the mechanics. I blame ccp for designing the game in a way that optimizes boring play. Sure some people might think rabbit plexing 4 alts is great fun. They may think I am wrong that fw would be better if it was not the optimal way to win sov. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I however am fairly convinced more people would agree with me. Namely if the bolded and underlined statement was false then faction war would be better. What do you think? Would fw be better if ccp made it so the bolded and underlined statement were no longer true? I use the term "rabbit plexer" as opposed to "farmer." "Farmer" implies that people are doing plexing for lp or isk gain. We had rabbit plexing before lp payouts. I don't think most plexers who d-plex relatively uncontested systems in empty frigates are "farmers" (because I tend to doubt they do it for the lp) but I would call them rabbits. Stopping any sort of pay for plexing would end "farming" but it wouldn't end "rabbit plexing." And so fw sov would still be broken. You can put your ship pretty far away from the warp in so even if you did not have local, dscan, or stabs you would still likely get away before you were pointed. Keep in mind that lots of times people with stabbed ships purposely let you target them so you can see its pretty futile to keep chasing them. If they could not fit stabs they would just warp off before you could get a point. As for what is and is not "rabbit plexing" there may be some gray areas. Where you want to draw the line about when someone fits the definition of a "rabbit plexer" or a "farmer" is a metaphysical question I will not claim to resolve. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1548	Posted - 2015.10.23 19:25:28 - [192] - Quote Everyone has the idea of running if something comes they dont want to fight. Some peoples envelopes are larger than others. Therefor your term lacks any meaningful definition.
Arla Sarain 689	Posted - 2015.10.23 19:48:48 - [193] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Everyone has the idea of running if something comes they dont want to fight. Some peoples envelopes are larger than others. Therefor your term lacks any meaningful definition. But wouldn't it be great if plex mechanics encouraged people to try and surpass their perceived narrow envelopes...? As opposed to the mechanics now that reward never committing to defending a plex and actually do the opposite - reward drawing out your aggressors patience and weaponizing his frustration. Your statement is true for the occasion when one is met with an obviously higher class/performance ship. But people still run away from Probes and Rifters and whatnot.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1548	Posted - 2015.10.23 20:27:00 - [194] - Quote Well, from my perspective. Most people i come across are rabbit plexers, or more accurately, evasion farmers. Its a matter of perspective. Its interesting to see how many farmers, who would run away from almost anything, will go toe-to-toe with one of my equally young and low SP alt. You also just fell into the same trap cerain often does. Points out a problem and offers no solution. Simply incanting things like 'introduce a mechanic' or 'ccp should fix it' is no help. You cannot force people to fight. At least you didnt go full cerain, and offer a solution that barely has any connection to the problem he proposes it to fix. Someone suggested removing d-plex LP. But that will be a boon for the farmers since it will resurrect the pendulum and flip flop occupancy of the past. many systems will just be written off as they were in the past since you know if you lose them today, they will just be back in your possession in 4 days time even if you dont lift a finger to go there. Basically, farming is already easy to fix. You just have to be as interested in defending the system as they are in farming it. If you are not interested in the system, does it really matter if they are evasion farmers or not? since if you are not there you would not know either way. Removing stabs from the repertoire of farmers simply gives pvpers the option to catch these guys without having to fit multiple scrams. Ceraind says it wont help because the evasion farmers will just warp away. I say, if they are paying enough attention to see you coming then they are entitled to warp away from something they dont like, just like everyone else.
Arla Sarain 691	Posted - 2015.10.23 20:59:48 - [195] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: You also just fell into the same trap cerain often does. Points out a problem and offers no solution. It's not a trap. We are not game designers. The point of this thread is to discuss problems. If I had to take a shot in the dark, I'd add a timer for "release of commitment" - if you don't come back to the plex after a certain time, you essentially demonstrate that you have no interest of committing to defending and capturing it. Once this runs out, any previous progress is lost. To prevent people from dipping into a plex and warping out to reset it, there is another timer that has to be completed to demonstrate interest. This should be relatively short, but also long enough that a stabbed ship could be killed (since these are the ships that will be the main perpetrators of "dipping", having the privilege of warping out if they have enough stabs). It's not ideal. Cons: 1) There are now several timers. Not only is there a strain on the game to keep track of these timers, they have to be released with supplementary QoL changes that somehow display these timers to each militia. I suppose the assets from the recent WH polarization timers could work, but that only tackles half of the problem. 2) Genuine system pushes could be adversely affected - FW folk are keen on keeping track of the timers in order to strategize re-shipping and plex contesting. I suppose this system would be milder than simply having each separate timer for each Militia. The scenarios I am considering are: [A] POS reshipping, in which case you are likely in the system, you get a certain amount of time to reship before the progress is lost, and if you can't seem to get your **** together, you likely wouldn't get the plex anyway, timer or no timer (although this is a huge leap in logic). [B] Station reship in a nearby or close system - the time this takes would likely not just envelope the "recommitment timer" but also the entire plex capture timer anyway (again a large leap, but it's difficult to estimate without giving a number for the timer), in which case you may consider an encounter loss as a loss of plex anyway, and instead prepare to ship for the next site. Pros: 1) Rolling back timers is less painful, since you don't need to complete the plex to discourage the farmer or the person with an evasion agenda, you just need to wait long enough to wipe the progress entirely. Best applied when their timer is almost complete for maximum salt. 2) Bunny plexing is harder within a single system for the same reason as above. It would be difficult to make any progress without defeating your aggressor and discouraging him from entering.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1420	Posted - 2015.10.23 21:14:43 - [196] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: You also just fell into the same trap cerain often does. Points out a problem and offers no solution. Simply incanting things like 'introduce a mechanic' or 'ccp should fix it' is no help. . I am sure everyone who read the thread knows I very clearly stated what I think will solve the problem. If any non-trolls think that is not the case I will try to help them understand. Lots of people can agree there is a problem, without agreeing to any particular solution. At least they agree with the first step of the logic - that there is a problem. They might also disagree with your claim that what we mean by "rabbit plexer" or "farmer" is so vague that it is meaningless. There might be some gray area at the fringes of the term but it is clear enough for many people who have tried to pvp in fw space to understand what we mean. You just try to derail every topic you can. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 104	Posted - 2015.10.23 21:43:49 - [197] - Quote The opposing point of views are helpful. I've come to terms that I will be quite alright if missions were removed, so long as there is a second LP source available, besides kills (unless they find a way to buff them back up without obvious exploits). Dual timers still sound great to me. Better than waiting around through a bloated timer that would still be present with the roll backs. It will also encourage some to fight over a plex that has a few seconds to go on your end. Either way,I would still like to see a small benefit to dplexing low contested systems. The ihub injection of the lost LP would be awesome. It would give us a reason to clear out the damn things. A bonus to tier based on total VP or kill stats would be a tremendous tradeoff were missions removed. Because, let's face it. Who would ever touch tier 5 again without missions? There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 104	Posted - 2015.10.24 20:52:17 - [198] - Quote Cearain wrote: They might also disagree with your claim that what we mean by "rabbit plexer" or "farmer" is so vague that it is meaningless. There might be some gray area at the fringes of the term but it is clear enough for many people who have tried to pvp in fw space to understand what we mean. You just try to derail every topic you can. I gotta say, to this guy's credit, that being critical of how the term 'rabbit' is used to imply skittish behavior, while accepting the very skewered definition of 'farmer' as applied to ... repetitious acts for the accumulation of non-physical objects within a virtual environment in exchange for real currency(?), is pretty comical. I don't think even a fraction of the persons you would label as farmer would qualify as what would generally be considered a 'farmer' by MMO standards. Grind would even be more suitable, except that the idiom of Eve terminology is accustomed to a certain set of words. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 10	Posted - 2015.10.26 02:17:20 - [199] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Everyone has the idea of running if something comes they dont want to fight. Some peoples envelopes are larger than others. Therefor your term lacks any meaningful definition. But wouldn't it be great if plex mechanics encouraged people to try and surpass their perceived narrow envelopes...? As opposed to the mechanics now that reward never committing to defending a plex and actually do the opposite - reward drawing out your aggressors patience and weaponizing his frustration. Your statement is true for the occasion when one is met with an obviously higher class/performance ship. But people still run away from Probes and Rifters and whatnot. There is now way to 'encourage' people to stay and fight, especially outside of their perceived engagement envelope, simple as that. It seems that the most people who complain about the farmers just want to be able to force people to fight and not give them a choice about weather they can engage or not. Despite his ideas about OGB Crosi is pretty much spot on about where FW is at the moment. Farmer have NEVER, I'll repeat that for effect, NEVER won a system that a pvp group want to hold. It's not about being able to hold the entire warzone it about being able to hold your own in the warzone. Farmers in FW are just like farmers in mission, WH, ded's etc doing something pretty inane to acquire isk. And TBH it's better for eve in general if it's acquired by trading farmed LP than bounty payout for rats as it doesn't actually inject isk into the game world. And that the real reason CCP won't change it much from what it is like now.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 309	Posted - 2015.10.26 04:04:18 - [200] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Despite his ideas about OGB Crosi is pretty much spot on about where FW is at the moment. Farmer have NEVER, I'll repeat that for effect, NEVER won a system that a pvp group want to hold. It's not about being able to hold the entire warzone it about being able to hold your own in the warzone. Farmers in FW are just like farmers in mission, WH, ded's etc doing something pretty inane to acquire isk. And TBH it's better for eve in general if it's acquired by trading farmed LP than bounty payout for rats as it doesn't actually inject isk into the game world. And that the real reason CCP won't change it much from what it is like now. While home systems are safe from farmers, we do still have to deplex them every morning. Somebody's isk machine causes us to have to spend hours deplexing our home systems without pvp, and for much smaller rewards than the farmers got. Plexing is supposed to be dangerous, that's why the payouts are so good. The farmers risk almost nothing, just an insured frigate that's stabbed and fitted with cheap modules. The farmers DO contribute to warzone control. A bunch of stabbed ships plexing everywhere makes it hard for the other side to make a comeback. They also devalue the "real" players' LP. We'd get more isk for the the items in our LP store if the market weren't flooded by the farmers.

Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 107	Posted - 2015.10.26 04:36:35 - [201] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: And TBH it's better for eve in general if it's acquired by trading farmed LP than bounty payout for rats as it doesn't actually inject isk into the game world. And that the real reason CCP won't change it much from what it is like now. Those reasons may be true, but to say that farmers don't impact the war zone because they never flipped a system is like saying the deep fryer don't help you eat your fries. They were instrumental, along with many focused alts, during the second victory in keeping low priority systems low contested as the last three were flipped. Players with alts like Crosi played a huge part, bringing systems down almost single-handedly (if all those alt arms could still be considered one body). Villore Accords had consistent gate camps. While OMS and Heyd turned,I did my best to keep the Mantenault/Alamel Russians at bay, who would run those systems up every night. I cannot speak enough about the disappointment in not getting that 2nd medal, or worst, the first for many who sunk days of effort for just a pat on the back. Also, not seeing how it affects one to sell a VNI for 60 instead of nearly 80, is blindfolded logic. It can be just as much a hit to moral that is further compounded after heavy, repeated, losses. These things appear to be separate in themselves, yet share a relationship in which pvp'ers are the bastard child. It's a QoL change that should happen, more for the sake of the southern war zone then our own, which has unique handicaps that prevent snowballing. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1550	Posted - 2015.10.26 04:51:26 - [202] - Quote if they are a necessary tool of a grand campaign then whats the problem? All evasion farmers can be easily dealt with using a modicum of willpower.
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 107	Posted - 2015.10.26 05:04:03 - [203] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: if they are a necessary tool of a grand campaign then whats the problem? All evasion farmers can be easily dealt with using a modicum of willpower. I guess you can say we take a hit to our income by exploiting the farmers as a balance of power or a crushing added momentum. To use them like a drone horde, has been both funny and horrific. My major concern is missions, the impact of which can only be seen at it's nosebleed point in the Min/Amarr stage. But it's hard to get the fat kids to give up the candy, if even for their own good. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 309	Posted - 2015.10.26 05:12:42 - [204] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: if they are a necessary tool of a grand campaign then whats the problem? All evasion farmers can be easily dealt with using a modicum of willpower. If you're in the system they are. If you cover every plex. Dock up and take a break, they come back. You chase them out. They come back. Manage to kill them and they'll be back in a stabbed ship and plexing again in minutes. Go for a roam? For every minute you're gone, that's another minute you have to deplex when you get back. They determine warzone control. The only thing the rest of their militia has to do is show up and siege ihubs to hit higher tiers, which increases the number of farmers. Here in the amarr/minmatar zone, we have 70 systems. Right now there are 71 pilots in our militia chat. We'd need every guy online to be at the keyboard and spread out to a different system to fight off the farmers. That's not going to happen, and worthless farmers gonna farm.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1550	Posted - 2015.10.26 05:34:06 - [205] - Quote Why do you think that a system should be safe if you are not there? Also, what difference would it make if its an evasion farmer or an actual pvper if you are not there?
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 10	Posted - 2015.10.26 05:45:24 - [206] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: if they are a necessary tool of a grand campaign then whats the problem? All evasion farmers can be easily dealt with using a modicum of willpower. If you're in the system they are. If you cover every plex. Dock up and take a break, they come back. You chase them out. They come back. Manage to kill them and they'll be back in a stabbed ship and plexing again in minutes. Go for a roam? For every minute you're gone, that's another minute you have to deplex when you get back. They determine warzone control. The only thing the rest of their militia has to do is show up and siege ihubs to hit higher tiers, which increases the number of farmers. Here in the amarr/minmatar zone, we have 70 systems. Right now there are 71 pilots in our militia chat. We'd need every guy online to be at the keyboard and spread out to a different system to fight off the farmers. That's not going to happen, and worthless farmers gonna farm. Bolded the important part. Nothing will ever change this in eve. Put Simply FW farming is an ISK sink in Eve and something that eve sorely needs TBH as isk is now easier than ever to accumulate. Farmers may have been 'influential' in campaigns but farmers by definition don't engage in the conflict. Like Crosi mentions if Alts are used strategically then are they 'farmers' or tools of war? Lets face it despite the fact that there seems to be a bigger number of whiners in EVE nowadays FW is probably the best version that it ever has been. It can be easily accessed by low sp players able to fund their pvp easily and it can be used by vets to get more of an elite pvp experience seeing as the skill lvl of the pvper's in FW is generally the highest in game IMO.
ColdBeauty oooh ponies 23	Posted - 2015.10.26 11:16:45 - [207] - Quote Colt Blackhawk wrote: ColdBeauty wrote: Colt Blackhawk wrote: 4.) FW mission running ranging from 150mil/h up to once even 450mil/h while risking less than the three other methods before. 450 mil roughly 1/3 plex =-ú5.66 p/h Better than UK minimum wage for 18-21 yr olds Expect a rise in RMTing when plex prices make FW missions pay more than UK minimum wage for over 21s ? I have a good RL income but THX for the example/insult. But if you have ever been with russians, romanians or africans in a corp you get a bad conscience when you realise that europeans and us boys are doing pay2win with plex. On the other side the most east europeans would not be able to play without plex. Well everyone can do what he likes in this game. Back on topic: Well t3ds get banned from smalls but are not good enough for mediums so what to do with em? wasn't meant as an insult, more just a joke about my surprise @ 450mil / hr
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1423	Posted - 2015.10.26 15:38:38 - [208] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Here in the amarr/minmatar zone, we have 70 systems. Right now there are 71 pilots in our militia chat. We'd need every guy online to be at the keyboard and spread out to a different system to fight off the farmers. That's not going to happen.... If we had rollbacks and real time intel on where plexes were being hit, 7-10 active organized pvpers could cover the entire amarr warzone. Each pvper could cover a section and they could effectively make sure most plexes were not captured without a fight. It would not be long before rabbit plexing was so inefficient, it would disappear. Faction war sov would finally be fixed. Of course both militias would have more than that number covering the warzone and the pvp per plex would skyrocket. Madrax573 wrote: There is now way to 'encourage' people to stay and fight, especially outside of their perceived engagement envelope, simple as that. What engagement envelope do people who fly empty frigates have? What about those who fit stabs? You see people fit their ship the most effective way they can, for what they want to accomplish. If they want to win sov in null sec they do not fit stabs or fly empty ships. If they want to win sov in faction war they do. Why? Because of ccp's design decisions. CCP can and should make the mechanics in faction war such that people who plex expect they will need to pvp in order to gain space. That is what the 2 changes they promised, would do. But they still have not implemented them. Madrax573 wrote: Farmer have NEVER, I'll repeat that for effect, NEVER won a system that a pvp group want to hold. It's not about being able to hold the entire warzone it about being able to hold your own in the warzone. . You have a very null sec mindset. In null sec this sort of works because it is entirely player based so the people who fight for a small bit of space donGÇÖt need to share it with the rest of new eden. Faction war will never be that way. Anyone can join the factions and reap the rewards that a small number of players create. That is why there really isnGÇÖt much gain to holding your own system/constellation in faction war. Yes you can dock. Big deal leave faction war and you can dock there too. If they gave faction war players some big advantages like anomalies in their upgraded systems like null sec guess what? 1) pirates could sit and dock in those systems and kill the ratters. Well then lets say ccp gave faction war some faction war only systems where only they could dock. I still donGÇÖt think people would be very safe in low sec especially if they do the upcoming 4 way war. But lets assume it is as safe as null sec. People would just put alts in that faction farm the anomalies that others earned. Unlike null sec sov players can't purge parasites out of faction war. Once you understand these inherent limitations you will see that faction war needs to go in a different direction. Applying the null sec view of GÇ£let me keep my little bit of spaceGÇ¥ is doomed when applied to faction war. CCP needs to understand these limitations. But faction war is not just limited due to this. Since the consequences in fw are not as large as losing space in null, CCP can make it so that faction war people can win sov much easier and quicker than what they need to do in null sec. They can make winning sov much more fun and involve much less drudgery. They could make it so the entire front is won by the side that is best at pvp of a variety of types. That is why Faction war has so much promise. Sadly they still have a design where the side that that fields the most rabbit plexers wins the most space. IMO that is drudgery. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 313	Posted - 2015.10.26 17:10:44 - [209] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Why do you think that a system should be safe if you are not there? Also, what difference would it make if its an evasion farmer or an actual pvper if you are not there? How many pvpers are going to bother trying to catch a stabbed farmer? Most are worried about killboard stats, and a 250,000 isk kill isn't worth much. If you're roaming you dont bother going after them because you need two scrams. If it's a pvper at least the guy is adding content. You can ship down to something you're pretty sure he'll fight and you'll both get to have some fun. The farmers are practically a non-entitiy when it comes to content. All they contribute is warzone control (which is good and bad for everyone) and devaluing everybody else's LP. In a few minutes a new character can be doing small and/or novice plexes, in a ship that costs practically nothing, while making more isk per hour than high/low level 4 missions or lower class WHs while being semi-afk. Is it any wonder why so many non-alt characters left militia? They get all the income without having to bleed for it. Now we're just a handful of pilots and an army of plexing alts.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 313	Posted - 2015.10.26 17:15:34 - [210] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Bolded the important part. Nothing will ever change this in eve. Put Simply FW farming is an ISK sink in Eve and something that eve sorely needs TBH as isk is now easier than ever to accumulate. Farmers may have been 'influential' in campaigns but farmers by definition don't engage in the conflict. Like Crosi mentions if Alts are used strategically then are they 'farmers' or tools of war? Lets face it despite the fact that there seems to be a bigger number of whiners in EVE nowadays FW is probably the best version that it ever has been. It can be easily accessed by low sp players able to fund their pvp easily and it can be used by vets to get more of an elite pvp experience seeing as the skill lvl of the pvper's in FW is generally the highest in game IMO. Home systems are mostly safe from farmers, but that doesn't mean that farmers don't have an effect on home systems. Once one side has most of the systems, the active pvpers have fewer places to go to find the fights they're looking for. When it's just the home systems things get dicey.

Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 836	Posted - 2015.10.26 18:49:45 - [211] - Quote Cearain wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Here in the amarr/minmatar zone, we have 70 systems. Right now there are 71 pilots in our militia chat. We'd need every guy online to be at the keyboard and spread out to a different system to fight off the farmers. That's not going to happen.... If we had rollbacks and real time intel on where plexes were being hit, 7-10 active organized pvpers could cover the entire amarr warzone. Each pvper could cover a section and they could effectively make sure most plexes were not captured without a fight. It would not be long before rabbit plexing was so inefficient, it would disappear. Faction war sov would finally be fixed. Of course both militias would have more than that number covering the warzone and the pvp per plex would skyrocket. Madrax573 wrote: There is now way to 'encourage' people to stay and fight, especially outside of their perceived engagement envelope, simple as that. What engagement envelope do people who fly empty frigates have? What about those who fit stabs? You see people fit their ship the most effective way they can, for what they want to accomplish. If they want to win sov in null sec they do not fit stabs or fly empty ships. If they want to win sov in faction war they do. Why? Because of ccp's design decisions. CCP can and should make the mechanics in faction war such that people who plex expect they will need to pvp in order to gain space. That is what the 2 changes they promised, would do. But they still have not implemented them. Madrax573 wrote: Farmer have NEVER, I'll repeat that for effect, NEVER won a system that a pvp group want to hold. It's not about being able to hold the entire warzone it about being able to hold your own in the warzone. . You have a very null sec mindset. In null sec this sort of works because it is entirely player based so the people who fight for a small bit of space donGÇÖt need to share it with the rest of new eden. Faction war will never be that way. Anyone can join the factions and reap the rewards that a small number of players create. That is why there really isnGÇÖt much gain to holding your own system/constellation in faction war. Yes you can dock. Big deal leave faction war and you can dock there too. If they gave faction war players some big advantages like anomalies in their upgraded systems like null sec guess what? 1) pirates could sit and dock in those systems and kill the ratters. Well then lets say ccp gave faction war some faction war only systems where only they could dock. I still donGÇÖt think people would be very safe in low sec especially if they do the upcoming 4 way war. But lets assume it is as safe as null sec. People would just put alts in that faction farm the anomalies that others earned. Unlike null sec sov players can't purge parasites out of faction war. Once you understand these inherent limitations you will see that faction war needs to go in a different direction. Applying the null sec view of GÇ£let me keep my little bit of spaceGÇ¥ is doomed when applied to faction war. CCP needs to understand these limitations. But faction war is not just limited due to this. Since the consequences in fw are not as large as losing space in null, CCP can make it so that faction war people can win sov much easier and quicker than what they need to do in null sec. They can make winning sov much more fun and involve much less drudgery. They could make it so the entire front is won by the side that is best at pvp of a variety of types. That is why Faction war has so much promise. Sadly they still have a design where the side that that fields the most rabbit plexers wins the most space. IMO that is drudgery. You still dishing out propaganda on the free intel BS idea and that farmers flip systems? 1. Map already tells you what systems have people in them. 2. Haven't seen a farmer yet destroy an iHub, and that is what causes systems to flip.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 313	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:50:36 - [212] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: You still dishing out propaganda on the free intel BS idea and that farmers flip systems? 1. Map already tells you what systems have people in them. 2. Haven't seen a farmer yet destroy an iHub, and that is what causes systems to flip. Propaganda? 1. Spending time in a quiet system guarding the plexes against farmers is not the way most people are going to play the game 2. But they do get the system from 0% to 95-100% No militia can hold back the tide of farmers. Do you think busting the bunker is the hard part? 5 minutes to bust the bunker, vs the endless hours capturing 166+ plexes. Hell, I've soloed bunkers faster than I could capture a large plex. Anyone that doesn't think the farmers are a problem, is A. Profiting from their 'work' B. A farmer The plexes need to be harder, hard enough that a noob character in a crap ship can't solo them. We also need rollbacks on the timer, and for the npcs to disappear when an enemy warps in. If a rabbit flees, his work should be undone. If that hurts the noobs, tough. They can team up with another noob and do the plexes. You don't see day old untrained alts complaining that they can't do incursions or sanctums/havens/level 4 missions.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 836	Posted - 2015.10.26 20:10:12 - [213] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: You still dishing out propaganda on the free intel BS idea and that farmers flip systems? 1. Map already tells you what systems have people in them. 2. Haven't seen a farmer yet destroy an iHub, and that is what causes systems to flip. Propaganda? 1. Spending time in a quiet system guarding the plexes against farmers is not the way most people are going to play the game 2. But they do get the system from 0% to 95-100% No militia can hold back the tide of farmers. Do you think busting the bunker is the hard part? 5 minutes to bust the bunker, vs the endless hours capturing 166+ plexes. Hell, I've soloed bunkers faster than I could capture a large plex. Anyone that doesn't think the farmers are a problem, is A. Profiting from their 'work' B. A farmer The plexes need to be harder, hard enough that a noob character in a crap ship can't solo them. We also need rollbacks on the timer, and for the npcs to disappear when an enemy warps in. If a rabbit flees, his work should be undone. If that hurts the noobs, tough. They can team up with another noob and do the plexes. You don't see day old untrained alts complaining that they can't do incursions or sanctums/havens/level 4 missions. You don't have to stay in one system and guard it. It's called watching the map, roaming to systems that are getting over a certain percentage, then plex them down. Once the Navy Maulus is released, hunting farmers may well become a thing. People who don't want to hunt farmers, counter plex farmers, or make an effort to catch farmers are the problem. CCP has given you the tools, people just refuse to use them because it actually takes EFFORT.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1423	Posted - 2015.10.26 20:16:38 - [214] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: You still dishing out propaganda on the free intel BS idea and that farmers flip systems? I am one of the few who ever gives data in these discussions. I encourage anyone interested in this topic to take a look at ccp's api dump. Look at the top vp gainers for faction for the week and then look at their killboard for the week. Of course people who don't mind rabbit plexing, say all those plexes rabbits run don't matter. But they are simply wrong. There is a huge amount of plexes being run in empty figates and stabbed ships. And forcing them to put guns on their ship or forcing them not to use stabs won't really stem the tide. They are fitting stabs because rabbit plexing is the most efficient way to get sov. Until that changes they will just use other evasion techniques and tools. CCP is aware of the data as well - or at least they used to be. That is why they said they would give us timer rollbacks and better intel tools. Estella Osoka wrote: 1. Map already tells you what systems have people in them. 2. Haven't seen a farmer yet destroy an iHub, and that is what causes systems to flip. 1) Who cares about intel that a person is in a system? That tells us almost nothing. It's clear that in order to reduce the effectiveness of rabbits we need better intel tools. Specifically I think we need to get real time intel of where plex timers are running. I don't know what you mean by "free" intel. I don't care if we have to pay for it or if it comes free. If you have to buy an implant or something that gives this intel its fine with me. But either way players need this intel. I don't think the rats in the plexes should be harder. That would just force pve fits and discourage fights. CCP should just give players the tools they need to defend their space. 2) See Templar's comment. Destroying an ihub is miniscule compared to the work of getting the system vulnerable. Estella Osoka wrote: You don't have to stay in one system and guard it. It's called watching the map, roaming to systems that are getting over a certain percentage, then plex them down. Once the Navy Maulus is released, hunting farmers may well become a thing. People who don't want to hunt farmers, counter plex farmers, or make an effort to catch farmers are the problem. CCP has given you the tools, people just refuse to use them because it actually takes EFFORT. Faction war has been out for about 7 years. And rabbit plexing is still the most effective way to gain sov. I think its time to admit the tools we have are not sufficient. If it makes you feel better you can blame the players for playing the game effectively for their ends. But that is not about to change. So unless ccp wants sov to forever be won by rabbits they need to change the mechanics. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 314	Posted - 2015.10.26 23:31:58 - [215] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: You don't have to stay in one system and guard it. It's called watching the map, roaming to systems that are getting over a certain percentage, then plex them down. Once the Navy Maulus is released, hunting farmers may well become a thing. People who don't want to hunt farmers, counter plex farmers, or make an effort to catch farmers are the problem. CCP has given you the tools, people just refuse to use them because it actually takes EFFORT. Outnumbered by the farmers. Roaming to a system to deplex it, while the farmers move onto other systems and farm. That's futile. No matter where you go, no matter how many you kill, they're going to get in another ship and move to a quieter system and plex/deplex it. So while you spend a couple days deplexing a system, several more are being plexed/deplexed. It's not complicated. If you're pro-farmer, you're either........ A. A mission runner B. A farmer
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 10	Posted - 2015.10.26 23:45:39 - [216] - Quote Simple fact is that you can never force people to fight who don't want to fight outside of catching the unwary or careless. This is as it should be. I'm pretty certain I don't have a null mindset as I've never spent much time there apart from a bit of exploration but I have spent time in FW since it was introduced and it by far the best system it has ever been for being a place to be able engage in casual pvp at all skill levels and still fund yourself without the need for hours of grinding for isk. In reality there is more than enough intel tool available if you want to find stuff out. Just takes a little teen tiny bit of effort to get it. Once again as it should be. Really people....farmers farm everywhere in eve yet the biggest whiners are FW player who think they have a monopoly on how you should play in FW. Get over it
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 10	Posted - 2015.10.26 23:52:17 - [217] - Quote Cearain wrote: And rabbit plexing is still the most effective way to gain sov. Of course it is. but would you rather have a huge structure grind? Your old arguments that sov should only be decide by pvp can't work as there is simple too few people actively participating in FW to allow this. And tbh it's all drivel .... I can lock down an entire system by myself from farmers (and probably even get a few lol kills in the process) all it takes is some effort from me. If I want to look for GF's then I go and look for them. If I'm just chilling I pick a relatively quiet system and go hunt farmers while d-plexing. It's not hard to find any level of action in FW. And what do you care anyways? You whined for years then huffed and buggered off.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1423	Posted - 2015.10.27 00:23:20 - [218] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Simple fact is that you can never force people to fight who don't want to fight outside of catching the unwary or careless. This is as it should be. Nobody is saying someone should be forced to fight. But those who never fight should not be the best at winning sov. Madrax573 wrote: In reality there is more than enough intel tool available if you want to find stuff out. Just takes a little teen tiny bit of effort to get it. Once again as it should be. No you can't and you never could. If you want to gain sov then you are best off getting several alt accounts and rabbit plexing. Those are the people who gain the most vp. Madrax573 wrote: Really people....farmers farm everywhere in eve yet the biggest whiners are FW player who think they have a monopoly on how you should play in FW. Get over it Like I already said, there will be people who like the idea that the most effective way to win sov is to get multiple alts and have them rabbit plex. I however am of the opinion that more people would enjoy faction war sov, if it was better done by fighting as opposed to running. I would also point out that FW is the only place where you actually take over the other sides sov by farming. Constantly running and never fighting is actually the most effective way to gain sov in faction war. That is why faction war sov is seen as a joke by most people who are familiar with it. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 10	Posted - 2015.10.27 00:33:17 - [219] - Quote Cearain wrote: I would also point out that FW is the only place where you actually take over the other sides sov by farming. Constantly running and never fighting is actually the most effective way to gain sov in faction war. That is why faction war sov is seen as a joke by most people who are familiar with it. It's also worth noting that no system that anyone has wanted to keep has ever been won by the farmers..... The big difference in FW sov is that the vast majority of the warzone is not really of any interest to people and it's those systems that get farmed by everyone and their dog. From what I've read of the new null sov mechanics it's been roughly based on FW sov. The difference in null sov is the number of players the big alliances can bring to bear. whereas FW only ever has 800-1000 player on at the best of times. This is just too little a number to have a 'combat' orientated sov system that won't be abused the hell out off even more some than the farmers nowadays
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 315	Posted - 2015.10.27 00:34:40 - [220] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Of course it is. but would you rather have a huge structure grind? Your old arguments that sov should only be decide by pvp can't work as there is simple too few people actively participating in FW to allow this. And tbh it's all drivel .... I can lock down an entire system by myself from farmers (and probably even get a few lol kills in the process) all it takes is some effort from me. If I want to look for GF's then I go and look for them. If I'm just chilling I pick a relatively quiet system and go hunt farmers while d-plexing. It's not hard to find any level of action in FW. And what do you care anyways? You whined for years then huffed and buggered off. A lot of pilots left because they didn't want to chase stabbed frigates all day long. While you may be able to lock down an entire system yourself, we have 70 systems that need to be locked down and 100 pilots in our militia chat. 5 of those are me. Expecting an entire militia to spread out and cover systems, a great number of which are quiet and aren't going to see any action, in order to counter a buttload of random untrained alts in worthless ships from random people that aren't coordinating (and don't need to be) is simply outrageous.

Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1551	Posted - 2015.10.27 00:44:21 - [221] - Quote Farming isnt such a problem since inferno was fixed. No one expects anyone in FW to do anything. You choose what you want to do, and do it. remember to keep it realistic for fear of disappointing yourself.
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1423	Posted - 2015.10.27 01:21:07 - [222] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Farming isnt such a problem since inferno was fixed. The data says getting as many rabbit plexing alts as you can, is still the best way to win sov. Crosi Wesdo wrote: No one expects anyone in FW to do anything. You choose what you want to do, and do it. remember to keep it realistic for fear of disappointing yourself. Like I said some people are happy with the current mechanic where you get alts rabbit plexing to win sov. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But let's be clear what you are supporting when you constantly lobby against timer rollbacks and better intel tools. These changes would only hurt rabbit plexing for the win. Your position only helps rabbit plexing. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1551	Posted - 2015.10.27 01:23:37 - [223] - Quote Specialising in any activity is always the best way to complete that one activity. It is however to the detriment of other activities. No farming alt is worth a single isk if there is a pvp toon opposing him. What you are complaining about is like complaining that the game is broken because its faster to build a dominix with a maxed out industry toon than it is with a 30 day trial account.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 315	Posted - 2015.10.27 01:24:34 - [224] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Farming isnt such a problem since inferno was fixed. No one expects anyone in FW to do anything. You choose what you want to do, and do it. remember to keep it realistic for fear of disappointing yourself. It's less of a problem but still a problem. These outsiders with plexing alts don't belong. The missions being too easy is being looked at, but plexing is even easier and defensive plexing stupidly easy. Eve has this thing called a risk vs reward dichotomy. If it's difficult and risky, the reward should be high. If it's easy with no risk, the reward should be trivial. What we have here is something easy with null risk that pays more than a lot of other pve activities in eve, and it pays well because it's supposed to be dangerous. Being in a stabbed cloaked ship that's pretty much unfitted otherwise, with a brand new character that's never going to train anything else.........makes no sense. Add the fact that it hurts the rest of the members in their OWN militia because of an over-saturation of items in the LP store and the OPPOSING militia because they get stuck in a lower tier they don't deserve. Where's the content from the farmers? The different militias fight each other, content for both sides. The pirates add content. The bears that try lowsec and get killed add content. The farmers? A few worthless frigate kills that offer no challenge. They don't belong. With the farmers gone and the missions fixed the LP would be worth something again, and it could attract new people into FW. Crosi Wesdo wrote: Specialising in any activity is always the best way to complete that one activity. It is however to the detriment of other activities. No farming alt is worth a single isk if there is a pvp toon opposing him. What you are complaining about is like complaining that the game is broken because its faster to build a dominix with a maxed out industry toon than it is with a 30 day trial account. That farming alt will move on to a quieter system.
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 10	Posted - 2015.10.27 01:27:02 - [225] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: A lot of pilots left because they didn't want to chase stabbed frigates all day long. While you may be able to lock down an entire system yourself, we have 70 systems that need to be locked down and 100 pilots in our militia chat. 5 of those are me. Expecting an entire militia to spread out and cover systems, a great number of which are quiet and aren't going to see any action, in order to counter a buttload of random untrained alts in worthless ships from random people that aren't coordinating (and don't need to be) is simply outrageous. Well if you aren't willing to go out and lock down the system from the farmers then you need to stop whining about them. (oops might have you confused with Cearain) The whole stabbed frig thing is really just an excuse. Most of the people I know that have left FW (and there have been a few I must admit) really left because they had been doing it for so long that they wanted to do something different. The thing with FW is that everyone is in the militia not an organised driven single alliance. So everyone plays the way they want which is exactly the reason it appeals to people.
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 10	Posted - 2015.10.27 01:32:56 - [226] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: These outsiders with plexing alts don't belong. The missions being too easy is being looked at, but plexing is even easier and defensive plexing stupidly easy. And there we go! The crux of the matter is you are whining about people coming in and playing in 'your' sandpit in a way you don't like. Yes there are mechanical issues that CCP is working around but the whole farmer thing is pretty much sorted out. A farmer is totally redundant when an active player turns up. This just the same argument that the null seccers use when they whine about random explorers running backwater null sites. The difference is most null seccers realise it's not a big thing and go back to sucking their space rocks but FW'ers think they are different and more entitled to have their own special area in space!!
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 315	Posted - 2015.10.27 01:55:06 - [227] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Well if you aren't willing to go out and lock down the system from the farmers then you need to stop whining about them. (oops might have you confused with Cearain) The whole stabbed frig thing is really just an excuse. Most of the people I know that have left FW (and there have been a few I must admit) really left because they had been doing it for so long that they wanted to do something different. The thing with FW is that everyone is in the militia not an organised driven single alliance. So everyone plays the way they want which is exactly the reason it appeals to people. Not talking about one system, I'm talking about the ENTIRE WARZONE. The man-hours aren't there for the regular militia to make much of a difference. All we can do is hold onto our home systems. This isn't about a different playstyle. The farmers hurt the real players by decreasing their income. Why keep your main in FW when you can just use a plexing alt or mission runner to fund your main in nulsec? Madrax573 wrote: And there we go! The crux of the matter is you are whining about people coming in and playing in 'your' sandpit in a way you don't like. Yes there are mechanical issues that CCP is working around but the whole farmer thing is pretty much sorted out. A farmer is totally redundant when an active player turns up. This just the same argument that the null seccers use when they whine about random explorers running backwater null sites. The difference is most null seccers realise it's not a big thing and go back to sucking their space rocks but FW'ers think they are different and more entitled to have their own special area in space!! For every real pvper there are two farmers. The pvpers aren't going to chase rabbits all day, he's going to go and look for something that shoots back, something that is actually worth something. As I have said, the farmers inundate the market with the LP store items and drive down the prices, which hurts EVERYONE in every militia. Worthless LP. We're talking LP/isk conversions that are on par with highsec level 4 LP. The decline of FW has gone hand in hand with the rise of the farmers. I doubt CCP's goal with the rewards for plexing was the end-game of stabbed plex farmers paying for supers used by neutrals. edit I suppose with your entire FW career consisting of 2 kills I shouldn't have dignified your comments with a response.
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 11	Posted - 2015.10.27 02:19:14 - [228] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: edit I suppose with your entire FW career consisting of 2 kills I shouldn't have dignified your comments with a response. And if you rely on face value the age and activity on the forums then you assume too much.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 316	Posted - 2015.10.27 02:34:49 - [229] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Templar Dane wrote: edit I suppose with your entire FW career consisting of 2 kills I shouldn't have dignified your comments with a response. And if you rely on face value the age and activity on the forums then you assume too much. Well if you're hiding behind an alt.......
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 12	Posted - 2015.10.27 03:09:03 - [230] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Madrax573 wrote: Templar Dane wrote: edit I suppose with your entire FW career consisting of 2 kills I shouldn't have dignified your comments with a response. And if you rely on face value the age and activity on the forums then you assume too much. Well if you're hiding behind an alt....... Nah not hiding behind any alts. I sold my old toon when I left last year. Funnily enough one of the things that I found really annoying was the amount of whine coming from entitlement driven FW'ers Now I'm back with a new toon and back in FW for when I fancy some casual pvp while I explore other areas of eve.

Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 320	Posted - 2015.10.27 03:49:23 - [231] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Nah not hiding behind any alts. I sold my old toon when I left last year. Funnily enough one of the things that I found really annoying was the amount of whine coming from entitlement driven FW'ers Now I'm back with a new toon and back in FW for when I fancy some casual pvp while I explore other areas of eve. The only proof you have that you know anything about FW is 3 kills. You've dabbled, that's it. If you're fighting for farmer's rights that probably means you're running multiple farmer accounts and feel 'entitled' to that income. The guys that have been living FW for years say something is wrong, that means something is wrong. Axing the farmers and the easy missions, the LP will be worth something again and it'll attract more people to come to the sandbox.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 837	Posted - 2015.10.27 03:50:39 - [232] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Madrax573 wrote: Well if you aren't willing to go out and lock down the system from the farmers then you need to stop whining about them. (oops might have you confused with Cearain) The whole stabbed frig thing is really just an excuse. Most of the people I know that have left FW (and there have been a few I must admit) really left because they had been doing it for so long that they wanted to do something different. The thing with FW is that everyone is in the militia not an organised driven single alliance. So everyone plays the way they want which is exactly the reason it appeals to people. Not talking about one system, I'm talking about the ENTIRE WARZONE. The man-hours aren't there for the regular militia to make much of a difference. All we can do is hold onto our home systems. This isn't about a different playstyle. The farmers hurt the real players by decreasing their income. Why keep your main in FW when you can just use a plexing alt or mission runner to fund your main in nulsec? Madrax573 wrote: And there we go! The crux of the matter is you are whining about people coming in and playing in 'your' sandpit in a way you don't like. Yes there are mechanical issues that CCP is working around but the whole farmer thing is pretty much sorted out. A farmer is totally redundant when an active player turns up. This just the same argument that the null seccers use when they whine about random explorers running backwater null sites. The difference is most null seccers realise it's not a big thing and go back to sucking their space rocks but FW'ers think they are different and more entitled to have their own special area in space!! For every real pvper there are two farmers. The pvpers aren't going to chase rabbits all day, he's going to go and look for something that shoots back, something that is actually worth something. As I have said, the farmers inundate the market with the LP store items and drive down the prices, which hurts EVERYONE in every militia. Worthless LP. We're talking LP/isk conversions that are on par with highsec level 4 LP. The decline of FW has gone hand in hand with the rise of the farmers. I doubt CCP's goal with the rewards for plexing was the end-game of stabbed plex farmers paying for supers used by neutrals. edit I suppose with your entire FW career consisting of 2 kills I shouldn't have dignified your comments with a response. All I see is a self-entitled whine. Your militia only has 100 active players? Sounds like someone should be recruiting. Farmers devaluing YOUR LP? Sounds like a check and balance to the EVE market to me. First you say farmers are stealing your LP and contaminating your warzone, but then you say a real PVPer isn't going to chase rabbits all day and will instead find something that is actually worth shooting. So I guess farmers aren't worth your effort and really don't matter, unless you can get someone else to fix it for you. The whine is strong with this one.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 320	Posted - 2015.10.27 04:02:03 - [233] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: All I see is a self-entitled whine. Your militia only has 100 active players? Sounds like someone should be recruiting. Farmers devaluing YOUR LP? Sounds like a check and balance to the EVE market to me. First you say farmers are stealing your LP and contaminating your warzone, but then you say a real PVPer isn't going to chase rabbits all day and will instead find something that is actually worth shooting. So I guess farmers aren't worth your effort and really don't matter, unless you can get someone else to fix it for you. The whine is strong with this one. And I see another nobody in a non-FW npc corp defending farmer income. So how many farmer accounts you run? Check and balance to the eve market? The lion's share of the LP earned in each militia is from farming and mission running. They aren't out for pvp, the income is all they want. They avoid any and all pvp, which adds nothing to the warzone in the way of content for others. They are content black holes. Without them injecting all those LP store items into the market, the prices would be much higher. That would attract the right kinds of players into FW and we'd have things the way they used to be. Recruitment? Hey, come join us in amarr militia! What kind of perks are there? Empty lowsec, devalued LP, worthless farmer frigates to chase, endless deplexing for pennies. Okay then, I think I'll go join gallente militia.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1551	Posted - 2015.10.27 04:14:57 - [234] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Madrax573 wrote: Nah not hiding behind any alts. I sold my old toon when I left last year. Funnily enough one of the things that I found really annoying was the amount of whine coming from entitlement driven FW'ers Now I'm back with a new toon and back in FW for when I fancy some casual pvp while I explore other areas of eve. The only proof you have that you know anything about FW is 3 kills. You've dabbled, that's it. If you're fighting for farmer's rights that probably means you're running multiple farmer accounts and feel 'entitled' to that income. The guys that have been living FW for years say something is wrong, that means something is wrong. Axing the farmers and the easy missions, the LP will be worth something again and it'll attract more people to come to the sandbox. Ive been living in FW for years, i say farmers are a nuisance. But nothing more. Easily dealt with. Remove stabs and cloakds from there fitting repertoire to make them more vulnerable. Though having lived for a time and observed trends in both warzones, i can appreciate that there are differences between your space and ours. Perhaps its geographical, with complacent corps breeding a disregard for the houskeeping required in FW by living outside the warzone but still in a central location, something much harder in our space. Or just that the old guard of amarr militia are more interested in camping station undocks than fighting in plexes. Dunno.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 320	Posted - 2015.10.27 04:27:23 - [235] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Ive been living in FW for years, i say farmers are a nuisance. But nothing more. Easily dealt with. Remove stabs and cloakds from there fitting repertoire to make them more vulnerable. Though having lived for a time and observed trends in both warzones, i can appreciate that there are differences between your space and ours. Perhaps its geographical, with complacent corps breeding a disregard for the houskeeping required in FW by living outside the warzone but still in a central location, something much harder in our space. Or just that the old guard of amarr militia are more interested in camping station undocks than fighting in plexes. Dunno. A nuisance in the home systems, but they are everywhere you are not, plexing. Every day, all day. Six of us keep two constellations safe, but we're a rarity. Most people in a militia don't bother because they're roaming looking for ganks, and the guys that do roam don't have two scrams fitted so they don't bother. Pretty much all of 2014 we were chasing farmers and bombers all day long. Suffering from burnout, we got tired of it and went on a long campaign hitting the minmatar home systems, because that was the only way we could get fights. For FW to be healthy again, like it used to be, something has to be done about the easy LP. Without the easy LP, the people who are all-in will have a much better income and it'll be an attractive incentive to join the militias. Then we'll get the pew like we used to. As is, if you're in a militia you're a holdout or just in for the easy isk.
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 12	Posted - 2015.10.27 04:38:18 - [236] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: A nuisance in the home systems, but they are everywhere you are not, plexing. Every day, all day. Six of us keep two constellations safe, but we're a rarity. Most people in a militia don't bother because they're roaming looking for ganks, and the guys that do roam don't have two scrams fitted so they don't bother. Pretty much all of 2014 we were chasing farmers and bombers all day long. Suffering from burnout, we got tired of it and went on a long campaign hitting the minmatar home systems, because that was the only way we could get fights. For FW to be healthy again, like it used to be, something has to be done about the easy LP. Without the easy LP, the people who are all-in will have a much better income and it'll be an attractive incentive to join the militias. Then we'll get the pew like we used to. As is, if you're in a militia you're a holdout or just in for the easy isk. So what you are saying is you want the good old days when being in FW didn't actually mean anything other than a free wardec. Before most people never looked a FW because you had to literally grind the hell out of militia corp standing to be able to run FW lvl 4's as that was the only way to earn isk from LP because guess what you got NOTHING for being in FW before other than loot from enemies. I too enjoyed my time in early FW but there is no way it would survive if it was reverted back to anything near that setup. I think you are suffering from super bitter vet syndrome...only cure is for you to remove the big giant stick from your backside chill out and go out and find fun in eve.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1551	Posted - 2015.10.27 05:28:05 - [237] - Quote I remember the good old days, not a single fight ever happened inside a plex. You were inviting mockery to suggest such a thing. So good. FW is awesome atm. Sorry it requires effort and a little commitment. Sorry there are people farming and making isk in systems that dont matter to you. What i said earlier about being realistic kind of implies making the best of the situation, good or bad. I know it was worse for you guys during inferno since for so long you were beaten down to tier 1. As much as gallente come across as egotistical, its a fact that we did a lot worse during inferno than caldari did. With a single tier 5 cash out during the whole affair compaired to 6-7 caldari tier 5 cash outs. Which puts us, iirc, as the worst performing militia during inferno. But now is nothing like that. So what if you hit tier 1. It doesnt matter, your LP inflates in value to compensate to some degree. The fights arrive on your doorstep. Perhaps a grand campaign decides to take your homesystem from you and you have to have a vicious fight where losing your home is a realistic proposition. Does it mean FW is broken? no. If you approach it correctly and give it your all, it can be fun, Its a game, is it awesome? It can be. Be realistic.
Portmanteau oooh ponies 145	Posted - 2015.10.27 12:45:26 - [238] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Ive been living in FW for years, i say farmers are a nuisance. But nothing more. Easily dealt with. Remove stabs and cloakds from there fitting repertoire to make them more vulnerable. Though having lived for a time and observed trends in both warzones, i can appreciate that there are differences between your space and ours. Perhaps its geographical, with complacent corps breeding a disregard for the houskeeping required in FW by living outside the warzone but still in a central location, something much harder in our space. Or just that the old guard of amarr militia are more interested in camping station undocks than fighting in plexes. Dunno. A nuisance in the home systems, but they are everywhere you are not, plexing. Every day, all day. Six of us keep two constellations safe, but we're a rarity. Most people in a militia don't bother because they're roaming looking for ganks, and the guys that do roam don't have two scrams fitted so they don't bother. Pretty much all of 2014 we were chasing farmers and bombers all day long. Suffering from burnout, we got tired of it and went on a long campaign hitting the minmatar home systems, because that was the only way we could get fights. For FW to be healthy again, like it used to be, something has to be done about the easy LP. Without the easy LP, the people who are all-in will have a much better income and it'll be an attractive incentive to join the militias. Then we'll get the pew like we used to. As is, if you're in a militia you're a holdout or just in for the easy isk. Having been a minnie militia pilot between 2009 and 2012 I have to say I was taken aback by the difference in the warzone when I returned as a neutral earlier this year. I saw literally zero pilots running Amarr missions and a few pilots running plexes. In contrast I saw many minmatar missions and plexes being run, the sheer number of them in comparison to Amarr stunned me. I think a combination of the ease of the minmatar missions and the natural convergence of farmers as a result to minnie militia has lead to a situation that is pretty much untenable for the Amarr. The vibrant and relatively balanced warzone I left is nowhere to be found and all that remains is 1 faction that has been hijacked and turned into an isk source and another that is trying continue to fight in spite of this. The corp I flew with, CTRL-Q has now left minmatar space for Gallente and so have several others I remember from years ago, so the affects of farming have been felt by pvpers from both sides of what used to be an active and fun warzone. Old stalwart minmatar corps that remain seem to have become shadows of their former selves, mentioning no names in particular. I find it incredible that old Amarr corps like PIE and AV are still there trying to slug it out in spite of these obstacles, fair play to you.
Master Sergeant MacRobert Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 233	Posted - 2015.10.27 14:40:29 - [239] - Quote Portmanteau wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Ive been living in FW for years, i say farmers are a nuisance. But nothing more. Easily dealt with. Remove stabs and cloakds from there fitting repertoire to make them more vulnerable. Though having lived for a time and observed trends in both warzones, i can appreciate that there are differences between your space and ours. Perhaps its geographical, with complacent corps breeding a disregard for the houskeeping required in FW by living outside the warzone but still in a central location, something much harder in our space. Or just that the old guard of amarr militia are more interested in camping station undocks than fighting in plexes. Dunno. A nuisance in the home systems, but they are everywhere you are not, plexing. Every day, all day. Six of us keep two constellations safe, but we're a rarity. Most people in a militia don't bother because they're roaming looking for ganks, and the guys that do roam don't have two scrams fitted so they don't bother. Pretty much all of 2014 we were chasing farmers and bombers all day long. Suffering from burnout, we got tired of it and went on a long campaign hitting the minmatar home systems, because that was the only way we could get fights. For FW to be healthy again, like it used to be, something has to be done about the easy LP. Without the easy LP, the people who are all-in will have a much better income and it'll be an attractive incentive to join the militias. Then we'll get the pew like we used to. As is, if you're in a militia you're a holdout or just in for the easy isk. Having been a minnie militia pilot between 2009 and 2012 I have to say I was taken aback by the difference in the warzone when I returned as a neutral earlier this year. I saw literally zero pilots running Amarr missions and a few pilots running plexes. In contrast I saw many minmatar missions and plexes being run, the sheer number of them in comparison to Amarr stunned me. I think a combination of the ease of the minmatar missions and the natural convergence of farmers as a result to minnie militia has lead to a situation that is pretty much untenable for the Amarr. The vibrant and relatively balanced warzone I left is nowhere to be found and all that remains is 1 faction that has been hijacked and turned into an isk source and another that is trying continue to fight in spite of this. The corp I flew with, CTRL-Q has now left minmatar space for Gallente and so have several others I remember from years ago, so the affects of farming have been felt by pvpers from both sides of what used to be an active and fun warzone. Old stalwart minmatar corps that remain seem to have become shadows of their former selves, mentioning no names in particular. I find it incredible that old Amarr corps like PIE and AV are still there trying to slug it out in spite of these obstacles, fair play to you. That is not quite how I see the old AvsM warzone but pretty close. After LNA and FeO left the field of play for Min there was no real strength in the Min Militia and the olde guard Amarr managed to get the medal with help from blob / plex work from Winmatar and the farmers jumping sides on the pendulum. The Amarr vet's that remain (MCF1B followed many other vets from Minmatar over to the Cal vs Gal zone) are not struggling. The fortress systems are held and they have even worked a few system gains recently but there is no stomach for the type of plex work required for so few pilots and tbh what is there to motivate them - no 2nd medal (ask Galmil). The Minmatar Militia has been trying to regroup and from my last views of them they are working systems and plex's in groups of 10-20 in order to capture systems (I've not been over there for 2-3 months now though). Whilst avoiding fleet battles in the main. Huola was defended for a while by the Min Russian groups. Most of the pilots that enjoyed getting in to fights, quit through frustration (I wonder if you are Loryanna?) went neutral in the hope of building a neut entity that can take low sec moons or went where there were clearly more fights to be had in Cal vs Gal. AvsM zone shows the extremes of the situation brought about because a number of FW mechanisms are out of balance and farming is too rewarding at minimal risk, for parties that are not interested in enjoying the fullness the FW WZ's could offer (most often because they have other interests for their mains - null sec Sov and getting a Super, etc...) The fact that there is no long term incentive and no real recognition/reward system for FW PvP means that, for many, FW is a temporary stop. People like to see their accomplishments recognised - look at how much hard work GalMil put in for a 2nd WZ control and they got nowt but a memory. There is much that could be done to incentivise loyalty and long term investment and there is much that could be done to increase the conflict drivers in the Militia WZ's. A penalty on low risk rewards would not go amiss either. "Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders 552	Posted - 2015.10.27 15:17:44 - [240] - Quote Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote: no 2nd medal (ask Galmil). Why you gotta hurt me so?

Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 838	Posted - 2015.10.27 16:19:03 - [241] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: All I see is a self-entitled whine. Your militia only has 100 active players? Sounds like someone should be recruiting. Farmers devaluing YOUR LP? Sounds like a check and balance to the EVE market to me. First you say farmers are stealing your LP and contaminating your warzone, but then you say a real PVPer isn't going to chase rabbits all day and will instead find something that is actually worth shooting. So I guess farmers aren't worth your effort and really don't matter, unless you can get someone else to fix it for you. The whine is strong with this one. And I see another nobody in a non-FW npc corp defending farmer income. So how many farmer accounts you run? Check and balance to the eve market? The lion's share of the LP earned in each militia is from farming and mission running. They aren't out for pvp, the income is all they want. They avoid any and all pvp, which adds nothing to the warzone in the way of content for others. They are content black holes. Without them injecting all those LP store items into the market, the prices would be much higher. That would attract the right kinds of players into FW and we'd have things the way they used to be. Recruitment? Hey, come join us in amarr militia! What kind of perks are there? Empty lowsec, devalued LP, worthless farmer frigates to chase, endless deplexing for pennies. Okay then, I think I'll go join gallente militia. U mad bro?
Portmanteau oooh ponies 147	Posted - 2015.10.27 16:52:23 - [242] - Quote Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote: That is not quite how I see the old AvsM warzone but pretty close. After LNA and FeO left the field of play for Min there was no real strength in the Min Militia and the olde guard Amarr managed to get the medal with help from blob / plex work from Winmatar and the farmers jumping sides on the pendulum. The Amarr vet's that remain (MCF1B followed many other vets from Minmatar over to the Cal vs Gal zone) are not struggling. The fortress systems are held and they have even worked a few system gains recently but there is no stomach for the type of plex work required for so few pilots and tbh what is there to motivate them - no 2nd medal (ask Galmil). The Minmatar Militia has been trying to regroup and from my last views of them they are working systems and plex's in groups of 10-20 in order to capture systems (I've not been over there for 2-3 months now though). Whilst avoiding fleet battles in the main. Huola was defended for a while by the Min Russian groups. Most of the pilots that enjoyed getting in to fights, quit through frustration (I wonder if you are Loryanna?) went neutral in the hope of building a neut entity that can take low sec moons or went where there were clearly more fights to be had in Cal vs Gal. AvsM zone shows the extremes of the situation brought about because a number of FW mechanisms are out of balance and farming is too rewarding at minimal risk, for parties that are not interested in enjoying the fullness the FW WZ's could offer (most often because they have other interests for their mains - null sec Sov and getting a Super, etc...) The fact that there is no long term incentive and no real recognition/reward system for FW PvP means that, for many, FW is a temporary stop. People like to see their accomplishments recognised - look at how much hard work GalMil put in for a 2nd WZ control and they got nowt but a memory. There is much that could be done to incentivise loyalty and long term investment and there is much that could be done to increase the conflict drivers in the Militia WZ's. A penalty on low risk rewards would not go amiss either. No I am definitely me not Loryanna, like I said I have not been active in militia for a long time so I can only go on what it was like when I left and what it is now, I appreciate a lot happened in between. To me having been away for so long, it looks like there must have been some to and fro of farmers between factions but, at least now, it looks like the farmers have settled for Mimnatar and it doesn't look like changing. Whether this will remain the case IDK, but as far as I can tell (from an outsider's POV) the tier system disincentivizes farmers switching sides to Amarr. The farmers have made their choice, at least in the bleak lands anyway. I understand my POV may be oversimplified to an extent, I'm not trying to offer more than that.
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 108	Posted - 2015.10.27 20:22:06 - [243] - Quote SFI's have been quite popular for a while now. Disruptors, gyro's, and Fleet shield extenders will always do good. No use in a plate that costs half of the hull, or a heat sink in place of resistance that compliments the majority of faction bonuses. These are the major reasons, off the top of my head, that Minmatar will forever be a preferred choice over Amarr. Aside from the easier missions, because npc lasers suck so hard and are easier to avoid in a bomber that also shrugs at tracking disruption. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 506	Posted - 2015.10.27 21:55:54 - [244] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Before most people never looked a FW because you had to literally grind the hell out of militia corp standing to be able to run FW lvl 4's as that was the only way to earn isk from LP because guess what you got NOTHING for being in FW before other than loot from enemies. I too enjoyed my time in early FW but there is no way it would survive if it was reverted back to anything near that setup. I think you are suffering from super bitter vet syndrome...only cure is for you to remove the big giant stick from your backside chill out and go out and find fun in eve. Are you high? you must be to have said these things. the standing increase for running a single plex was .5% inferno came out and they straight put a zero in the decimal on pretty much everything fw related. you literally had to ONLY run 20 plexs on your own and you had access to lvl4's the standings increase was so huge that people who were actually good at the game just farmed multiple chars and ran akemon and mich every week. And even after that there was multiple EASY ways to glitch each races missions so you could run them very easily. Crosi Wesdo wrote: I remember the good old days, not a single fight ever happened inside a plex. You were inviting mockery to suggest such a thing. So good. Maybe in your warzone. but over here the majority of fights took place in the plexs. arzad the most flipped system in eve history, and it wasnt just out of timezone plexing. there are hundreds of videos of people fighting in arzad plexs long before inferno. Everyday you logged in as soon as you could and both sides lived in arzad station and it was always a race to the plexs' and to either kill the minmatar rifter fleet or kill lost incognetos griffin. There was so much ass kicking that at one point electus matari had to drop from 0.0 and join the minmatar militia to help retake systems there was millions of fights in the plexs before inferno. thats where the majority happened here. Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1553	Posted - 2015.10.27 22:42:17 - [245] - Quote Perhaps for the first few months of FW there was a lot of activity. then there was 2 years of pretty much nothing. On our side of hte warzone, there was the remnants of calmil draketrain (about 5 dudes, the uncool ones left behind) who used to care, and continue to use their after downtime advantage to run plexes. And on the gallente side there was val erian and perhaps dopified and XG who did their best to chase the contested blobs on the map window, trying to find the elusive and meaningless plexes. Everyone else was fighitng a couple of times a night in BCs around gates. P.Sure the amarr/matar warzone also died down after the initial buzz of FW and occupancy was meaningless throughout FW space for the following couple of years. That is after all, why people were asking for consequences to FW. Alas, FHP, i would never expect a coherent and honest comment from you since you are just an nonredeemable role player and so so bitter.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 327	Posted - 2015.10.28 10:50:45 - [246] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Perhaps for the first few months of FW there was a lot of activity. then there was 2 years of pretty much nothing. On our side of hte warzone, there was the remnants of calmil draketrain (about 5 dudes, the uncool ones left behind) who used to care, and continue to use their after downtime advantage to run plexes. And on the gallente side there was val erian and perhaps dopified and XG who did their best to chase the contested blobs on the map window, trying to find the elusive and meaningless plexes. Everyone else was fighitng a couple of times a night in BCs around gates. P.Sure the amarr/matar warzone also died down after the initial buzz of FW and occupancy was meaningless throughout FW space for the following couple of years. That is after all, why people were asking for consequences to FW. Alas, FHP, i would never expect a coherent and honest comment from you since you are just an nonredeemable role player and so so bitter. Not to say amarr havent had it tough, but those rose tinted glasses are nearly opaque. It would be like, if say incursions could be done with 5 minute old alts in an unfit frigate. Why be in FW with your main, when your alt can do it. Your main would then be able to be neutral and shoot everyone. A lot of the corps that were over here did just that. All that's left are the holdouts, the roleplayers. Everybody else has gone neutral to shoot every one, or hopped into another militia that has a good LP store. I'm a ruthless hunter of farmers, and have chatted with many. I can't count the number of times they've tried to get me to ignore them because I know their main. That's right, amarr militia mains with gallente/minmatar farmer alts.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1555	Posted - 2015.10.28 11:18:12 - [247] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Guys left militia to game the system, then complained about how broken the system was. There should be 'things' in place to stop people from making choices. Low SP alts are too high skill for me and my friends to deal with and it sickens me that they are making ISK in places i dont care about and probably never go There should 'be a way' to make it only possible for high SP chars to fight for FW and make ISK there. Sure, we could deal with that as players but most of us just want to sit on station undock and 1 shot things with machariels because that proves we are l33t Ok mate.
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 330	Posted - 2015.10.28 14:12:38 - [248] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Templar Dane wrote: Guys left militia to game the system, then complained about how broken the system was. There should be 'things' in place to stop people from making choices. Low SP alts are too high skill for me and my friends to deal with and it sickens me that they are making ISK in places i dont care about and probably never go There should 'be a way' to make it only possible for high SP chars to fight for FW and make ISK there. Sure, we could deal with that as players but most of us just want to sit on station undock and 1 shot things with machariels because that proves we are l33t Ok mate. You're just defending the status quo, How many farmer accounts you running?
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 330	Posted - 2015.10.28 14:26:25 - [249] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Bolded the important part. Nothing will ever change this in eve. Put Simply FW farming is an ISK sink in Eve and something that eve sorely needs TBH as isk is now easier than ever to accumulate. Farmers may have been 'influential' in campaigns but farmers by definition don't engage in the conflict. Like Crosi mentions if Alts are used strategically then are they 'farmers' or tools of war? Lets face it despite the fact that there seems to be a bigger number of whiners in EVE nowadays FW is probably the best version that it ever has been. It can be easily accessed by low sp players able to fund their pvp easily and it can be used by vets to get more of an elite pvp experience seeing as the skill lvl of the pvper's in FW is generally the highest in game IMO. If you're fleeting up and engaging the enemy fleet in an important system, fighting the good fight like you're supposed to..... The vacuum created in the rest of the warzone will be filled by farmers. A militia isn't just the pvpers, it isn't just the farmers, and the farmers dictate control of the warzone. The farmers aren't bots, they aren't going to just sit in one system. If you're actively defending/deplexing they move on to somewhere that's quiet and plex/deplex away. Your systems get higher and higher, and theirs get lower and lower. Eventually systems will get vulnerable and then the enemy will form up a fleet and bust the bunker in a few minutes. You can put together a fleet to stop them, but then you still have to spend hundreds of manhours deplexing that system. As things are right now we actually outnumber the minnies in real pilots so we can take any individual system they have, but it doesn't matter because the rest of the warzone is being taken care of by semi-afk guys in cheap frigates. And people wonder why plex prices are so high.........gee, I wonder if it has anything to do with people running half a dozen farmer accounts.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 843	Posted - 2015.10.28 15:34:10 - [250] - Quote Let them flip the systems you don't care about. If they don't flip it, let the system stay vulnerable. Offensive Farmers can't plex in a system that is vulnerable.

Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1555	Posted - 2015.10.28 15:38:22 - [251] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: You're just defending the status quo, How many farmer accounts you running? Actually, im not. Im all for certain changes that will prevent low SP alts from being so hard to catch. Ships with stabs and cloaks should not run a timer for example. All im saying is that nerfing farmers will not fix your militia. That requires commitment. Something that amarr has lacked to a greater degree than any other militia. From my perspective, amarr as a whole never embraced the new FW ethos. Perhaps because inferno was so tough for them, but cal mil and matar mil have been beating into the dust since then and both bounce back. Only amarr wallow in their self pity and have done for years. Sure, farmatar didnt help. But in gal mil for example, it would be highly frowned upon if someone were to admit to farming our space with calmil alts.
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 108	Posted - 2015.10.28 15:59:57 - [252] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Actually, im not. Im all for certain changes that will prevent low SP alts from being so hard to catch. Ships with stabs and cloaks should not run a timer for example. I still don't think it's very reasonable to request a change that requires the system to scan every ship that enters a plex. GÇó It breaks immersion GÇó unnecessary server requests GÇó the modules in question are being used for their exact purpose and therefore have a legitimate right to be present. GÇóI don't see the cloak module (which is active) similar enough to the warp core bonus. Unless you make stabs also active, which would hurt their use on blockade runners. I didn't think CCP would implement such a particular change, but then look what they did with interceptors in Null. It is my opinion that they either remove defensive plexing rewards, to inject that LP into the hub, partially or entirely -- yet definitely reduced towards the d-plexer, OR change the module itself. I proposed they require it massively increase the cap to initiate warp, to the point that it is something ridiculous in a frigate. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1555	Posted - 2015.10.28 16:14:31 - [253] - Quote There is no argument that supports having stabs inside plexes. There is more of an argument for cloaks, but usually you are not alone if you have a cloak fitted and you are generally just looking for cheesy kills from a decloak trap. Your bait can run the timer. Neither cloaks or stabs have to change. I have no idea why you would suggest they would have to change based on a complete ignorance of how the game works.
Master Sergeant MacRobert Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 236	Posted - 2015.10.28 16:41:55 - [254] - Quote Oreb Wing wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Actually, im not. Im all for certain changes that will prevent low SP alts from being so hard to catch. Ships with stabs and cloaks should not run a timer for example. I still don't think it's very reasonable to request a change that requires the system to scan every ship that enters a plex. GÇó It breaks immersion GÇó unnecessary server requests GÇó the modules in question are being used for their exact purpose and therefore have a legitimate right to be present. GÇóI don't see the cloak module (which is active) similar enough to the warp core bonus. Unless you make stabs also active, which would hurt their use on blockade runners. I didn't think CCP would implement such a particular change, but then look what they did with interceptors in Null. It is my opinion that they either remove defensive plexing rewards, to inject that LP into the hub, partially or entirely -- yet definitely reduced towards the d-plexer, OR change the module itself. I proposed they require it massively increase the cap to initiate warp, to the point that it is something ridiculous in a frigate. I'm of the opinion they just need to reduce the Tier bonus's to something reasonable and see how much of an affect that has on the farming block. In the AvsM zone the farming block is fickle. It swings over to the Amarr when the pendulum of isk per LP is in favour and the market is saturated on the other side. As for WCS I'd like them to consider alteration of the WCS module by making it a high slot module It should be in conflict with fitting a cloak, not tank. Although I do envisage a possible problem with drone boats that do not require guns to be effective but, that is why the module triggers a scan resolution penalty. "Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Master Sergeant MacRobert Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 236	Posted - 2015.10.28 17:04:24 - [255] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Let them flip the systems you don't care about. If they don't flip it, let the system stay vulnerable. Offensive Farmers can't plex in a system that is vulnerable. I think you may be missing one of the consequences of a large portion of the FW population consisting of "Evasion Farmers". The FW WZ in A vs M has a population crisis. A number of pilots looking for interactive play have bundled into the one WZ (C vs G) in order to counter the long term effects that the FW mechanics have caused, including the failure to address the LP farming issue. Your comments regularly point at "why care", just turn a blind eye and sweep it under the carpet. However, the long term existence of this type of play is putting FW under some risk of failure. Whilst the FW WZ includes a large number of different playstyles, which it should encourage and support, it should do so at a prejudice towards those that invest in interactive low sec activities... Why? If you want to maintain subscriptions and players you need to give them something fun to do. If you dilute their fun with a lot of unfulfilling gameplay you diminish the reason for them to log on and play (Goons have used this in the past to win Sov). However, it does not make a good business model for CCP to allow for this to continue. I'd be confident enough to state the average "Evasion Farmer" does not do so for fun but for income. Not everyone runs multiple clients. A lot of people have also changed over 10+ years and have lives that limit their game time (I am one for sure). If you reduce what they can do with the time they have in game down to a search for reasonable content they change their game choices or change their game (eg: Alliances leave one WZ for the other, players play other games). This has been happening for some time. The A vs M WZ lost the fight to the C vs G WZ. Likely due to the close proximity of the C vs G WZ to more active null sec. The population that does play FW has contracted there. Small changes are needed stepwise to see if they can trigger the right change to the mix in order to kick things back into balance. There is a place for farming if the risk / reward relationship is well balanced. The same can be said about the off grid boosters, OFB. Currently there is not enough risk to the reward. Aggression timers (same as neutral logi) would perhaps be appropriate but forcing them on grid is unnecessary. "Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 108	Posted - 2015.10.28 18:11:24 - [256] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: There is no argument that supports having stabs inside plexes. There is more of an argument for cloaks, but usually you are not alone if you have a cloak fitted and you are generally just looking for cheesy kills from a decloak trap. Your bait can run the timer. Neither cloaks or stabs have to change. I have no idea why you would suggest they would have to change based on a complete ignorance of how the game works. OGB kills would be cheesy kills to some, and while I do not know exactly how the game figures cloaking proximity, to disable it, I am equally confused what the difference is between an empty hull and of you got your special restriction. Wth is that difference? No change has been made. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1555	Posted - 2015.10.28 18:44:57 - [257] - Quote Boost kills can be cheesy. Im not even close to understanding the rest of your gibberish comment.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 843	Posted - 2015.10.28 21:00:25 - [258] - Quote Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: Let them flip the systems you don't care about. If they don't flip it, let the system stay vulnerable. Offensive Farmers can't plex in a system that is vulnerable. I think you may be missing one of the consequences of a large portion of the FW population consisting of "Evasion Farmers". The FW WZ in A vs M has a population crisis. A number of pilots looking for interactive play have bundled into the one WZ (C vs G) in order to counter the long term effects that the FW mechanics have caused, including the failure to address the LP farming issue. Your comments regularly point at "why care", just turn a blind eye and sweep it under the carpet. However, the long term existence of this type of play is putting FW under some risk of failure. Whilst the FW WZ includes a large number of different playstyles, which it should encourage and support, it should do so at a prejudice towards those that invest in interactive low sec activities... Why? If you want to maintain subscriptions and players you need to give them something fun to do. If you dilute their fun with a lot of unfulfilling gameplay you diminish the reason for them to log on and play (Goons have used this in the past to win Sov). However, it does not make a good business model for CCP to allow for this to continue. I'd be confident enough to state the average "Evasion Farmer" does not do so for fun but for income. Not everyone runs multiple clients. A lot of people have also changed over 10+ years and have lives that limit their game time (I am one for sure). If you reduce what they can do with the time they have in game down to a search for reasonable content they change their game choices or change their game (eg: Alliances leave one WZ for the other, players play other games). This has been happening for some time. The A vs M WZ lost the fight to the C vs G WZ. Likely due to the close proximity of the C vs G WZ to more active null sec. The population that does play FW has contracted there. Small changes are needed stepwise to see if they can trigger the right change to the mix in order to kick things back into balance. There is a place for farming if the risk / reward relationship is well balanced. The same can be said about the off grid boosters, OFB. Currently there is not enough risk to the reward. Aggression timers (same as neutral logi) would perhaps be appropriate but forcing them on grid is unnecessary. If you can't defend your system, you will lose it. Simple as that. If you don't have the manpower to defend all the space, then you have to focus the manpower you do have on the systems you want to keep, and can protect. Simple as that. There are ways to catch farmers and kill them. People don't because they don't like to fly a ship setup for a specific purpose, or just don't want to put forth a little effort. Even if you get rid of warp stabs in plexes, you will still have farmers. They will just align out when someone hops into system, and then rabbit when someone lands on the gate.
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 109	Posted - 2015.10.29 02:37:59 - [259] - Quote The skill injection changes coming will offer new players the opportunity to ingest some of those old SP's, if they are so bothered with long wait times. I threw out the possibility of the Sisters of Eve epic arc granting SP upon completion, something minuscule that would allow them to top off a lvl 4 1x skill, such as CPU management. You can only do them once every 3 months. An excellent carrot to chase that would also grant a large measure of experience and comprehension of the scale of Eve at the cost of a measly 45,000 granted skill points. Therefore I like the elapsed time of skills. It is an unfortunate reality that they will almost certainly lose if they meet a player that is skilled in both time invested and combat effectiveness. I apologize for the scatter-brained responses during my work breaks. I am mingling answers to different posters in one answer. I believe the current level of payouts by tier are good. It is the means by which high tiers are easily reached and maintained that I think is the root of the problem, which points us back, always, to the FW missions. Defensive plexing farmers will diminish in lower tiers, which is the inevitable outcome of axing the missions. I say these things because Gallente militia is a true example of what a faction will look like when missions are not easily accessible and have a high risk, high loss. Getting rid of them entirely would return the focus to VP warfare. Restricting tech 2 and tech 3 hulls will allow others to still do them, with the risks that will fit the rewards. The general consensus is that keeping them around will still divert attention from the actual fighting. I have run them in pvp fits and have gotten kills on the way to objectives, in a pre-made fleet and a few times solo I just happened to be at the right place at the right time and helped shoot stuff down. There is still a place for them if we do it right, but the warzone can only be better without them than with. Stabbed plexers can be caught and the Navy Maulus will soon help. OGB's can be scared off half the time by simply throwing out combat probes, whether you know what the hell you're doing or not. Unfortunately no one can tell, without becoming familiar with enemies, who is boosted in a busy system or not. Neither can you tell if they're drugged if they already popped. Big oh wells. I think the FW map screen that clearly shows which systems currently have objectives that are being captured is plenty of information for you to go by. Whether you want to show up in a t1 frigate or a pirate cruiser, is your own damn choice. You deserve to see anything more. Use a scout. Make friends. NAFF like the rest of us and get it done. Why should anyone know if i'm in a Curse, a Lachesis, a Daredevil or a Garmur with free remote intel tools? There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1556	Posted - 2015.10.29 03:49:01 - [260] - Quote Perhaps i play too much eve, but i open the FW window and i can see exactly where is being attacked, and for the most part, in conjunction with the KB i can see who is responsible and judge the threat level. the data is already there though.

Idame Isqua Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 4	Posted - 2015.10.29 05:37:43 - [261] - Quote If all they did was make defensive plexing the same as offensive plexing. In that before the timer can be run the NPC must be killed. NPC can spawn and despawn depending on who has the least or most ships. I.E. I'm oplexing I shoot galmil npcs, someone comes in and kills me, next spawn is a calmil ship the deplexer has to kill. Currently deplexing is far to easy And dosnt tie in with a systems level A higher level system should be easier to deplex But that has to involve make no teir systems a lot harder to deplex And the entire offence deplex mechanic is out of sync with the rest of eves 'pick your primetime'. On that note if people are worried that deplexing will become to much of a pain How about adding decay rates to everything So if someone runs up 5% on a L5 system while everyone else is at work in a hour. After say 48 hours it would have decayed back to zero. Maybe a decay curve of some sorts so a hours of plexing only takes half an hour of deplexing but 4 hours takes 8 Currently the whole system is pretty weak with every plex having equal value at all times Of course the LP returns are not static at all, which is fine, but you have to realise a lot of deplexing/oplexing occurs out of purely economic activities. And that the whole system as it stands currently is a weird experiment in market forces. This creates a system with a significant proportion of activity either economically based or based it not much really as the economics are the only real factor. The example you can't ignore would be: getting a fleet of 30 cruisers into a system offensive plexing for four hours (with or without resistance) can countered with a no skills alt in a stabbed unfit hull piloted by someone AFK 99% of the time. The outcome in terms of warzone control is a zero sum game The outcome in economic terms is one pilot who no has a lot of LP, and has taken no risks and hasn't even invested much time And a bunch of pilots who as a group have made a certain net loss (with or without any fights)
per Terpene Conglomerate 80	Posted - 2015.10.29 07:26:08 - [262] - Quote just few points from last sugar kayles blog, things that were talked about at vegas and i think they might have change some things in fw a little bit maybe, question is if for good or bad: The tribute system is Concord giving players an extra thank you for doing what they normally do. It is based on you doing what you like to do. Most cases it is completed in your first piece of content. There are five levels of tribute and they are completed all together. If you complete a level five type (currently incursion, FW missions, high level anoms, level 5 missions, higher WH sites) you will not only get the level five tribute but also levels one-four. So there is no grinding low level content just to get the tribute. NPC patrols are coming to FW. You will get LP for them. Patrols and NPC activities are coming to all areas of space. Q: What is the roll out? A: Current plans are: Tribute and Data sites around Christmas. NPC Patrols in March. Drifter capitals next summer. Q: Will the patrols cause standings hits? A: Yes. There will be standings hits. Q: Standings. I like to attack people in Faction Warfare but it gives me bad standings. I think that standings should be decoupled from PvP. A: I do not see how that makes sense considering that those players have been hired by the Militia and you are killing them. Q: Faction and Faction standing. There needs to be a more intuitive way to repair them. A: We have to revisit the standings system in the future. It needs to be ripped out or completely redone. It is not on the list of things for right now
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1556	Posted - 2015.10.29 12:32:20 - [263] - Quote Well, i have to be blunt. But sugar kyle clearly has no idea about FW. The suggestions in the minutes are just awful. This is what happens when you ask someone who has zero clue, to do something for you. NPCs are never the answer, well unless, as someone just said; make there be 2 rats in all plexes locked in eternal combat. You arrive and choose your side by killing the enemy factions rat. It respawns the same as the rats do now. This is a very simple DPS/AFK check for d-plexing that parallels the o-plexing check and doesnt interfere with PVP. Unlike the little i have heard about this idiotic patrols. Though admittedly, i havent taken the time to read much about them as reading ideas from people who have no idea how FW works is kinda depressing. FW is so close to perfect, its a shame that CCPs only ideas for it (and every other part of EVE) are these convo luted, unintuitive and contrived changes.
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 109	Posted - 2015.10.29 13:11:56 - [264] - Quote So, more PvE. LP to who knows what corporation. And people lose sec status for shooting others. ...fug, the future is grim There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Thanatos Marathon Black Fox Marauders 555	Posted - 2015.10.29 13:43:50 - [265] - Quote Pew Pew!
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 109	Posted - 2015.10.29 15:38:08 - [266] - Quote Thanatos Marathon wrote: Pew Pew! Ya. Might as well go fit up more ships instead of wasting my time here. QQ AvM wz. Head over to Black Rise when you get bored. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 332	Posted - 2015.10.29 17:25:30 - [267] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Well, i have to be blunt. But sugar kyle clearly has no idea about FW. The suggestions in the minutes are just awful. This is what happens when you ask someone who has zero clue, to do something for you. NPCs are never the answer, well unless, as someone just said; make there be 2 rats in all plexes locked in eternal combat. You arrive and choose your side by killing the enemy factions rat. It respawns the same as the rats do now. This is a very simple DPS/AFK check for d-plexing that parallels the o-plexing check and doesnt interfere with PVP. Unlike the little i have heard about this idiotic patrols. Though admittedly, i havent taken the time to read much about them as reading ideas from people who have no idea how FW works is kinda depressing. FW is so close to perfect, its a shame that CCPs only ideas for it (and every other part of EVE) are these convoluted, unintuitive and contrived changes. As if the more complex you make something the harder it is to 'game'. Its actually the other way around usually. It's almost like he thinks that since there are problems in FW, that more PVE content is the answer. I like the idea with the 2 opposed NPCs in each plex. That and a rollback would be cool. And for god's sake fix the mission NPC AI in the missions. "FEAR NOT FELLOW MILITIA NPCS I AM HERE TO SAVE YOU" and then they light you up. And bring back the smaller accel gates/small beacon so we can sneak inside cloaked like we used to. My anti-bomber bomber is le sad. The bombers weren't much of an issue when you had a really good chance of catching them.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1559	Posted - 2015.10.29 17:54:23 - [268] - Quote They broke the a-gates with a fix for the 'you cannot..you canno..you canno..you canno..you canno..you canno..you canno..you canno..you cannot jump because you are cloaked' issue on regular gates. They didnt change thee size of the gates they made it so that when you activate a gate or a-gate when you are cloaked, it first does an 'approach' until you are within 2km, which decloaks you, then activates. Even though you can still activate the gate at 2.5km when you are not cloaked. I was sorry to see that go too. Just another band aid fix that will never be looked at again.
Colt Blackhawk bad InTentiOnZ senseless intentions 317	Posted - 2015.10.29 18:05:18 - [269] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Well, i have to be blunt. But sugar kyle clearly has no idea about FW. The suggestions in the minutes are just awful. This is what happens when you ask someone who has zero clue, to do something for you. NPCs are never the answer, well unless, as someone just said; make there be 2 rats in all plexes locked in eternal combat. You arrive and choose your side by killing the enemy factions rat. It respawns the same as the rats do now. This is a very simple DPS/AFK check for d-plexing that parallels the o-plexing check and doesnt interfere with PVP. Unlike the little i have heard about this idiotic patrols. Though admittedly, i havent taken the time to read much about them as reading ideas from people who have no idea how FW works is kinda depressing. FW is so close to perfect, its a shame that CCPs only ideas for it (and every other part of EVE) are these convoluted, unintuitive and contrived changes. As if the more complex you make something the harder it is to 'game'. Its actually the other way around usually. It's almost like he thinks that since there are problems in FW, that more PVE content is the answer. I like the idea with the 2 opposed NPCs in each plex. That and a rollback would be cool. And for god's sake fix the mission NPC AI in the missions. "FEAR NOT FELLOW MILITIA NPCS I AM HERE TO SAVE YOU" and then they light you up. And bring back the smaller accel gates/small beacon so we can sneak inside cloaked like we used to. My anti-bomber bomber is le sad. The bombers weren't much of an issue when you had a really good chance of catching them. Have to disagree with you here Dane. Since CCP removed the cloaky stuff I killed tons of bombers. You just need to know howto make it the right way. [09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f**** amarr flag and s* on their smoking wrecks.
per Terpene Conglomerate 80	Posted - 2015.10.29 18:57:23 - [270] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Well, i have to be blunt. But sugar kyle clearly has no idea about FW. The suggestions in the minutes are just awful. This is what happens when you ask someone who has zero clue, to do something for you. NPCs are never the answer, well unless, as someone just said i dont want to be blunt or something but how did you find out this was sugar kyles ideas?

Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1559	Posted - 2015.10.29 19:43:30 - [271] - Quote I was under the impression that he was supposed to be the FW rep. But yes, not his idea perhaps, but thats what the csm is for. To take the heat off ccp.
Veskrashen Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 874	Posted - 2015.10.30 00:12:46 - [272] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: I was under the impression that he was supposed to be the FW rep. But yes, not his idea perhaps, but thats what the csm is for. To take the heat off ccp. Sorry mate but you're completely off base on this one. For one thing, Sugar is a she. Second, she wasn't presenting her own ideas on how to FW to CCP, she was presenting those ideas gathered from FW players on slack and via in person / in game / email conversations with those FW pilots who seemed to know their stuff. If the ideas presented to CCP weren't the best, it's our fault for giving her crap ammo to work with, not hers. I will, in any instance, defend Sugar's efforts on our behalf to anyone anywhere. Were it not for her, FW wouldn't have even gotten a session in the last summit - the only reason it happened is because Sugar reached out to CCP Affinity and lobbied for it. You ungrateful koontz... We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1560	Posted - 2015.10.30 00:21:24 - [273] - Quote As will all player input, its gathered together, in the wastebin at CCPs office. I dont believe any of the proposed changers were supplied from the player base. I dont have to be grateful for bad ideas. I dont have to be grateful forever for any good ideas either.
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 14	Posted - 2015.10.30 09:14:21 - [274] - Quote Those ideas were what Suger recorded from the round table in Vegas and she posted on here blog. Not her ideas. I think. The universe is my playground
Master Sergeant MacRobert Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 238	Posted - 2015.10.30 13:17:23 - [275] - Quote It is my understanding that this stuff is not from Eve Vegas it has just been highlighted there. This is the stuff that CCP brought, pre-packaged to the CSM X Summit 1 to discuss and reveal to the CSM Members.. I believe Sugar Kyle was asked (or lobbied to), before the summit, to poll the Militia community on what things they recommend be done to improve the FW beginners experience. Which is why many of us posted in the sticky thread at the top of the W&T forums. If I am not mistaken, Sugar Kyle was to take a report based on our suggestions to the same CSM summit to present and possibly discuss with CCP? Although it was not to include anything towards improving the long term experience within FW. However, they came with their own measures already and apparently they do not think it is a problem to have the programming team whose focus is on PvE and NPC efforts have a "side project" of FW. As was pointed out in the Eve-O forums / Assembly Hall thread here eg: Steve Ronuken wrote: Bienator II wrote: FW + PVE in the same session is a bit strange tbh. It's because of the team involved. Same team working on both. (If you think about it, FW is, at its core, PvE. The PvP side is pretty much like any PvP) This, amongst other comments raised alarm bells that any work on FW was sidelined as minor projects for a team already focused on another general aspect of Eve Online development. So far they have done very little to dispel fears that there will be little effort to improve the FW model and that rather than seeing the Warzones as an opportunity for some player growth they think it is of little importance because it has such a low population figure by comparison to other parts of Eve (which is self-serving as this is due to the lack of investment of time in improving the mechanics that have driven many pilots away). "Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 844	Posted - 2015.10.30 14:32:35 - [276] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: As with all player input, its gathered together, in the wastebin at CCPs office. I dont believe any of the proposed changes were supplied from the player base. CCP only ever ask for input from the players so they know what to rule out from the outset. I dont have to be grateful for bad ideas. I dont have to be grateful forever for any good ideas either. Ideas have to stand on their own merit. Bad ideas shouldnt be ignored because of someones gender either. Im detecting a slight glint from your white knights armour lol, Its frustrating, because so little has to change to polish the rough edges around FW. I still cant believe there are going to be roaming NPCs lol. And i still cant believe you are asking me to be grateful for that vesk lol. Last I checked CSMs are player representatives. Sugar Kyle posted a stickied thread back in August to get input. Input was gathered and she said she would present them to CCP. If CCP then ignored said input, that is on CCP. Sugar Kyle did her part. I must ask, did we do our part in providing ideas? That thread was only 5 pages long. Pretty short in my opinion.
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 220	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:17:36 - [277] - Quote That thread was about how to improve new player experience in FW, so 5 pages is more than enough for that unless you want 40 pages of basically the same things repeated over and over again.
Veskrashen Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 875	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:47:13 - [278] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Last I checked CSMs are player representatives. Sugar Kyle posted a stickied thread back in August to get input. Input was gathered and she said she would present them to CCP. If CCP then ignored said input, that is on CCP. Sugar Kyle did her part. I must ask, did we do our part in providing ideas? That thread was only 5 pages long. Pretty short in my opinion. There was a lot of additional discussion on Slack and other areas as well. That's where a lot of the additional input came from. Once I'm home from work I'll dig up the Day 4 summit notes and try to provide some clearer context. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1562	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:56:10 - [279] - Quote Presenting minutes will do nothing other than clarifying if cpp ignored suggestions, or if the wrong people were making the suggestions. Fact is, non of the changes ive seen floated improve on any of the problems in FW as it stands. It really takes us a step backwards where pve steps on the toes of pvp content.
Portmanteau oooh ponies 151	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:43:04 - [280] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Those ideas were what Suger recorded from the round table in Vegas and she posted on here blog. Not her ideas. I think. All they had to do was read any one of god knows how many threads on FW to find the most common ideas on fixing FW/plex mechanics... timer rollbacks, nuking tier levels, stabs disallow plex timer etc etc.

Veskrashen Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 877	Posted - 2015.10.31 04:21:25 - [281] - Quote Portmanteau wrote: Madrax573 wrote: Those ideas were what Suger recorded from the round table in Vegas and she posted on here blog. Not her ideas. I think. All they had to do was read any one of god knows how many threads on FW to find the most common ideas on fixing FW/plex mechanics... timer rollbacks, nuking tier levels, stabs disallow plex timer etc etc. None of which means that CCP had the Dev capacity to address any of that, or that those were even good ideas or fit into their vision of what FW should be in the first place. That CCP even addressed anything FW related with as much as they've got going on is due to Sugar's efforts - period. If she hadn't stepped up to gather feedback and represent us, there wouldn't have been an FW session at all. But let's face it - for all it's flaws FW is in a pretty solid place right now. Some of the mechanics are wonky, but even if all they do is tune the missions a bit that alone would be a big change in how FW feels. Given how much CCP has shifted to incremental change, they may actually be planning to tweak a few areas to reduce the biggest pain points and give themselves development time to address the bigger EVE changes that need to happen for he health of the game - links, capitals, nullsec sov, incursions, etc. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Portmanteau oooh ponies 151	Posted - 2015.10.31 06:05:57 - [282] - Quote Blimey mate... white knight much ? EDIT ... in case you don't get it, my comment was directed at CCP, not this Sugar Kyle person
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1565	Posted - 2015.10.31 14:28:00 - [283] - Quote Veskrashen wrote: Portmanteau wrote: Madrax573 wrote: Those ideas were what Suger recorded from the round table in Vegas and she posted on here blog. Not her ideas. I think. All they had to do was read any one of god knows how many threads on FW to find the most common ideas on fixing FW/plex mechanics... timer rollbacks, nuking tier levels, stabs disallow plex timer etc etc. None of which means that CCP had the Dev capacity to address any of that, or that those were even good ideas or fit into their vision of what FW should be in the first place. That CCP even addressed anything FW related with as much as they've got going on is due to Sugar's efforts - period. If she hadn't stepped up to gather feedback and represent us, there wouldn't have been an FW session at all. But let's face it - for all it's flaws FW is in a pretty solid place right now. Some of the mechanics are wonky, but even if all they do is tune the missions a bit that alone would be a big change in how FW feels. Given how much CCP has shifted to incremental change, they may actually be planning to tweak a few areas to reduce the biggest pain points and give themselves development time to address the bigger EVE changes that need to happen for he health of the game - links, capitals, nullsec sov, incursions, etc. So basically keep our mouth shut even if the ideas ccp is putting forard are pretty stupid at best and a step backwards at worst? Even though we were asked for ideas and non of them were considered. Because having an opinion on the game is just being an entitled **** since its unrealistic to expect ccp to make thier game better because ,devs, even if they are using ;devs; to mate it worse lol. Basically, trust in ccp. Because they HAVENT been systematically destroying their game with convoluted and contrived mechanics to alienate old players in pursuite of new players that are more interested more instantly rewarding games. Not to say there hasnt been good with the bad. To say we should ignore bad just because they did something good is moronic. To say sugar kyle is the only reason ccp worked on fw is ludicrous. Ccp allocated dev time and created inferno. With no imput from players outside station lockouts, the only working part. The rest had to be redone months later due to how broken it was, as people had told them it would be. With fw, ccp has only ever done what it wants. Kyle was nothing more than a figurehead. You are unreal vesk. How long have you been in love with sugar kyle?
Arla Sarain 695	Posted - 2015.10.31 15:58:06 - [284] - Quote Is there no FW little things thread...? Would be nice to have a dedicated colored bracket for the inplex warp-in beacon. Difficult to see it sometimes. For the large the warp in spot is the anomaly bracket. But the gated sites are a bit gimmicky.
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 114	Posted - 2015.10.31 15:59:28 - [285] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: You are unreal vesk. How long have you been in love with sugar kyle? Lol! Vesk, it's not about being ungrateful. I don't know how long Sugar has been accepting information for FW, but if CCP wants ideas on how to help new players joining the militia, than it figures that they should also care about the overall health of this zone. You want a lovely brick road, but that little wizard is still behind the curtain, and getting louder. You said FW is in a good place, but are you only speaking on behalf of our war zone? Missions require a small adjustment, you say, but in what way exactly? FW was a testing ground for the t1 rebalance, and also the T3D's. We've helped shift the paradigm of recent nerfs and buffs. Expecting them to make two changes that could take probably a day it's not too much to ask. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Veskrashen Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 879	Posted - 2015.11.01 15:35:16 - [286] - Quote http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/Meetings/summit/CSM10-S1-D4.pdf So the main issues right now with FW as a whole are: Broken missions / mission balance Plex Farming Awoxing / militia overviews / cross-faction plexing Standings A lot of folks have a lot of different ideas about how to address them, but if you read the minutes they're all actually touched on in the minutes: Mission balance - CCP Affinity is specifically looking at rebalancing missions, and notes that they'll be adding fast webbing frigates to the L4s in order to cut down on bomber alts being able to run them easily Plex farming - CCP is adding NPC patrols to FW first, which will move around the system and engage players. And yes, they'll chase you if you run. In part this is using FW space as a test bed for the mechanic before they expand it to other areas of the game - but it will definitely make AFK plexing a lot harder than it is now. And they won't even have to introduce gimmicky mechanics like banning WCS or cloaks to do it. Awoxing / cross-militia - They're planning on breaking up the cross-faction alliances and making it a four-way war. That will instantly solve the cross-militia awoxing issues and such. They're aware that they'll need to adjust the tier stuff if that happens, and they know they'll need to find a way to move between the Cal/Gal and Min/Amarr zones more easily, but they note they're working on that stuff too. Standings - For one thing, you'll get suspect timers for entering plexes, which should make it a lot easier for us to engage neutrals without tanking our security status all to hell. They're also looking at allowing individuals in a corp, or corps in an alliance, to join FW without the entire organization needing to. CCP Affininty mentioned they'd even like to decouple standings from FW completely as it would solve a lot of issues. So, when I read people bitching about how nothing is changing and noone listens and they're not doing anything and whine whine whine, it really makes we want to slap the hell out of folks. Folks like Sugar Kyle and Gorski Carr, among others I'm sure, specifically went out to the community in multiple channels to gather feedback on FW. And they pushed to get it addressed during the summit so that they'd be able to tell us players what CCP had in mind. So CCP is working on updating things as they can, while keeping in mind that a total revamp might be needed down the road. From the minutes: CCP Affinity wrote: A lot of the feedback we got from players is that they'd like an overhaul of the full system, but we don't feel that is beneficial at present when a lot of the feedback we're hearing is "we don't have enough to do in FW", "there's not enough PvP targets", "there's no reliable PvE" so we want to fix that side of things first, then perhaps the system issues go away, we'll see. If you look at the overall EVE game right now, the roadmap, the massive freaking changes they're doing in terms of structures, nullsec sov, industry, capital ships... they're MASSIVELY shifting the bedrock of what has driven this game for the past 5-7 years at least. The fact that they're even taking FW into account, given that FW lowsec (and yeah mostly Cal/Gal) is one of the most active areas of the game, is a testament to how much folks like Sugar Kyle and Gorski Carr are willing to step up and represent a group of players that has become ever more whiny and entitled. Grow the hell up already. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 116	Posted - 2015.11.01 16:52:11 - [287] - Quote Fake pvp npc's that ruin fights in progress is a horrible idea. Or will they simply hold back for a bit to honor a 1v1, then attack you after. They enter plexes? they roam around like a real player? Adding mimics is not the solution; introducing npc's into places players should fill is, once again, missing the point entirely. Webbing frigates in missions does not alleviate the problem of the LP ATM's that missions are. K, it hurt the farmers, but if payouts still remain the same, t3d's will simply take their place and those that are mainly responsible for bumping their faction up will continue to do so. While still leaving Galmil with perma jamming in our missions AND an annoying frigate to easily clear with drones. From the way you speak about the roaming NPC's, it feels as if you actually think this is a good idea? We can shrug on our side as these LP 's come to us while we camp gates. That's pretty cool. We're in a fight against a neutral on a gate, and one of these turns up? Standings hit assumes that neutrals will not be engaged by these faction police? FW is a place for fighting, not PvE. We are the creators of our content. Stoic silence changes nothing, and enthusiasm for negative ideas is madness, not maturity. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 116	Posted - 2015.11.01 19:12:58 - [288] - Quote I'll read those darn minutes, but if you think this is whining, I will contend with that. It is mostly grumbling about ' improvements ' that have been the cause of these problems due to oversight. They went to change the problem while ignoring the spirit of the entire idea. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 221	Posted - 2015.11.01 20:38:39 - [289] - Quote Ves please explain what exactly good do you see from those changes, 'cause mb I'm missing something? Quote: Mission balance - CCP Affinity is specifically looking at rebalancing missions, and notes that they'll be adding fast webbing frigates to the L4s in order to cut down on bomber alts being able to run them easily First of all there is already webbing frigs in some missions. Second of all, was FW missions problem just about how you can do them in a bomber or was it about how hugely different they are in difficulty by comparison. How will adding more webbing frigs will make amarr missions equal to minmatar ones. One will have target painter, missiles plus more webs other will still have just TDs and more webs. What will this change? Minmatar missions will still be the most easy by a mile in comparison to others. Quote: Plex farming - CCP is adding NPC patrols to FW first, which will move around the system and engage players. And yes, they'll chase you if you run. In part this is using FW space as a test bed for the mechanic before they expand it to other areas of the game - but it will definitely make AFK plexing a lot harder than it is now. And they won't even have to introduce gimmicky mechanics like banning WCS or cloaks to do it. This is completely weird one, there is not enough information to make solid opinion, but it does raise some questions. For example I would like to know how will this new "NPC patrols" differentiate farmers from non-farmers, how will they interact with players if they are already engaged in combat with other players, will they use e-war etc.? It would be fun a few times if after a close fight players will be ganked by one of those "NPC patrols", but after awhile it will become mostly annoying to deal with. What boggles my mind why CSM representatives didn't ask those questions to CCP on the spot. Suspect timers on entering plexes, individually joining FW and 4 way war is indeed interesting imo so good work there CCP and CSM. (to be fair it does look like Sugar is trying to bring player feedback to CCP) Quote: Sugar - The LP market is pretty volatile and will be even more so with upcoming changes. Mission running and FW LP conflict with each other, and we have a lot of people who just want the LP store revamped in general. this one was completely ignored by CCP
Portmanteau oooh ponies 155	Posted - 2015.11.01 20:45:14 - [290] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: This is completely weird one, there is not enough information to make solid opinion, but it does raise some questions. For example I would like to know how will this new "NPC patrols" differentiate farmers from non-farmers, how will they interact with players if they are already engaged in combat with other players, will they use e-war etc.? It would be fun a few times if after a close fight players will be ganked by one of those "NPC patrols", but after awhile it will become mostly annoying to deal with. What boggles my mind why CSM representatives didn't ask those questions to CCP on the spot. Suspect timers on entering plexes, individually joining FW and 4 way war is indeed interesting imo so good work there CCP and CSM. This seems like a very stupid way of fixing AFK plexing which could hurt pvpers. It is unclear how it works but to me it sounds like roaming faction navy ? This is a huge disadvantage for FW pvpers vs neutrals like myself, seems a tad unfair.

Portmanteau oooh ponies 156	Posted - 2015.11.01 20:49:02 - [291] - Quote Oreb Wing wrote: Fake pvp npc's that ruin fights in progress is a horrible idea. Yep this is my take on it too, as a neutral I would be pissed if NPCs come in and blap my opponent and the last thing we need is more discouragements to engage... seems like this is a PVErs idea with no clue about how pvp works or the motivations/disincentives that surround it.
Portmanteau oooh ponies 156	Posted - 2015.11.01 20:53:48 - [292] - Quote Veskrashen wrote: If you look at the overall EVE game right now, the roadmap, the massive freaking changes they're doing in terms of structures, nullsec sov, industry, capital ships... they're MASSIVELY shifting the bedrock of what has driven this game for the past 5-7 years at least. The fact that they're even taking FW into account, given that FW lowsec (and yeah mostly Cal/Gal) is one of the most active areas of the game, is a testament to how much folks like Sugar Kyle and Gorski Carr are willing to step up and represent a group of players that has become ever more whiny and entitled. Grow the hell up already. so in a choice between nothing and sh changes we should grow up and be grateful for the sh... ok mate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
Veskrashen Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 879	Posted - 2015.11.01 21:42:47 - [293] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Quote: Mission balance - CCP Affinity is specifically looking at rebalancing missions, and notes that they'll be adding fast webbing frigates to the L4s in order to cut down on bomber alts being able to run them easily First of all there is already webbing frigs in some missions. Second of all, was FW missions problem just about how you can do them in a bomber or was it about how hugely different they are in difficulty by comparison. How will adding more webbing frigs will make amarr missions equal to minmatar ones. One will have target painter, missiles plus more webs other will still have just TDs and more webs. What will this change? Minmatar missions will still be the most easy by a mile in comparison to others. Two main things. First, the addition of small fast webbing frigates means you need to bring a boat that can actually kill frigates. Second, if you can't kill them quickly, you can't speed tank for crap. These two things combined means that thinly tanked bombers that relied on speed and range to tank the NPCs won't be able to do so anymore. In addition, even if you bring a T3D, you can get webbed down and hammered by the long range BS DPS which isn't an issue at the moment for most farmers. So, it'll make all missions harder, by requiring you to bring a boat that can actually tank the room legit and deal with the full range of NPC sizes. Those boats are generally not cloaky (unless you're running T3Cs / Stratios), which makes them easier to hunt - and more expensive targets as well. Quote: Quote: Plex farming - CCP is adding NPC patrols to FW first, which will move around the system and engage players. And yes, they'll chase you if you run. In part this is using FW space as a test bed for the mechanic before they expand it to other areas of the game - but it will definitely make AFK plexing a lot harder than it is now. And they won't even have to introduce gimmicky mechanics like banning WCS or cloaks to do it. This is completely weird one, there is not enough information to make solid opinion, but it does raise some questions. For example I would like to know how will this new "NPC patrols" differentiate farmers from non-farmers, how will they interact with players if they are already engaged in combat with other players, will they use e-war etc.? It would be fun a few times if after a close fight players will be ganked by one of those "NPC patrols", but after awhile it will become mostly annoying to deal with. What boggles my mind why CSM representatives didn't ask those questions to CCP on the spot. You're right, we don't know much. And it's not like they're adding them to buff FW - they're just using FW space to test it out. My suspicion is that they'll be able to enter plexes, and if so it'll be dangerous to plex AFK. It could be very difficult when you're fighting someone (kinda reminiscent of the really old school times) but it's a change at least, that ought to impact the way plexing is done. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1426	Posted - 2015.11.01 21:46:54 - [294] - Quote Crosi The issue of lockouts came up before inferno but players repeatedly rejected the idea because they did not want to drive away pvp. Now we see that lockouts are a mixed bag. In this very thread people are saying they don't push systems because they don't want to drive away pvp. Before inferno players asked for consequences and incentives for plexing and system control. CCP delivered that by giving lp for plexes and the tier system. This has definitely invigorated faction war. As to the rest: 1) CCP said they would do things - like rollbacks. And now it seems they just completely forgot. Does anyone know what happened? Did they decide it would be to hard to code or something? Is the new team even aware of these promises? 2) We have already been down the route where npcs do the work in plexes. CCP ultimately (and IMO properly) decided that npcs should have very little effect on plexes because they get in the way of pvp. Now I am afraid they are going back on this so that Faction war can be a test bed for some new carebear mechanic they are working on. The fact that they often use Faction war as a "test bed" for other parts of the game (and generally how they treat faction war) makes it clear to me that they do not appreciate the potential of faction war. EVE needs exciting wars. And given null secs contentment with farming anomolies null sec seems less and less likely to provide that. CCP should fully pursue all of its options toward this end including faction war. 3) It is difficult to understand what their vision for faction war is now. In the past they said they wanted faction plexing in particular to be a pvp activity. But now its unclear. They seem content with the rabbit plexing that plaques faction war. But if we assume they have a vision for faction war, what statistics are they looking at to see if they are achieving their vision? IMO they should look at the amount of pvp that happens in a plex per plex captured. There would probably be other statistics to look at that but that would be an important one. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 116	Posted - 2015.11.01 22:21:59 - [295] - Quote I think most of us can get behind two easy, but very big, changes. GÇóAxe the missions for 6 months. Just make the agents inaccessible. I think a lot of people that have chimed in about them don't really understand how they work or throw out a load of **** due to bias or attempts to hedge in their own interests, because they themselves exploit them. As it is, Galmil missions in even tier 3 are paying out better than higher tier devalued goods in other militias. The they are so inaccessible to lower SP pilots or small groups makes them that much better for the few that can do them. In Minmatar, two combat high dps frigates can clear an assassination mission in <5 minutes. Yep. GÇó Cause every plex to spawn two opposing NPC's, and to the damn wind with whatever they choose to shoot. They will most likely switch targets when a player becomes a higher threat over the npc. As it is,I doubt their meager dps can ever be enough to destroy the other NPC's tank, as per Crosi's infinite war. Timer countdown would initiate with obvious conditions met. Two very simple, very possible, changes. Done with was is currently already present. The only set back I can see is that a skilled Comet might be able to push a large with the assistance of the friendly NPC. No gimmick restrictions, no PvE, no distractions to engagements. The suspect flag (which hopefully borrows from the Dual system, but open) will be a great change. As for 3rd parties joining FW as in individuals, our corporations being able to join within a non-FW alliance: Bad. Why? This 'visitor' approach to FW is ridiculous. They want to have the benefits of farming FW without the clear demands of investment as a group? Blaming high standings penalties for shooting friendlies as a reason for wanting the penalties relaxed has more to do with the default overview problem than it being too high, which is nonsense. The theme demands that standings he in place and be an important factor, or you alienate RP'ers and dilute the association this has to the empire factions. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1573	Posted - 2015.11.02 07:37:14 - [296] - Quote Veskrashen wrote: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/Meetings/summit/CSM10-S1-D4.pdf So the main issues right now with FW as a whole are: Broken missions / mission balance Plex Farming Awoxing / militia overviews / cross-faction plexing Standings A lot of folks have a lot of different ideas about how to address them, but if you read the minutes they're all actually touched on in the minutes: Mission balance - CCP Affinity is specifically looking at rebalancing missions, and notes that they'll be adding fast webbing frigates to the L4s in order to cut down on bomber alts being able to run them easily Plex farming - CCP is adding NPC patrols to FW first, which will move around the system and engage players. And yes, they'll chase you if you run. In part this is using FW space as a test bed for the mechanic before they expand it to other areas of the game - but it will definitely make AFK plexing a lot harder than it is now. And they won't even have to introduce gimmicky mechanics like banning WCS or cloaks to do it. Awoxing / cross-militia - They're planning on breaking up the cross-faction alliances and making it a four-way war. That will instantly solve the cross-militia awoxing issues and such. They're aware that they'll need to adjust the tier stuff if that happens, and they know they'll need to find a way to move between the Cal/Gal and Min/Amarr zones more easily, but they note they're working on that stuff too. Standings - For one thing, you'll get suspect timers for entering plexes, which should make it a lot easier for us to engage neutrals without tanking our security status all to hell. They're also looking at allowing individuals in a corp, or corps in an alliance, to join FW without the entire organization needing to. CCP Affininty mentioned they'd even like to decouple standings from FW completely as it would solve a lot of issues. So, when I read people bitching about how nothing is changing and noone listens and they're not doing anything and whine whine whine, it really makes we want to slap the hell out of folks. Folks like Sugar Kyle and Gorski Carr, among others I'm sure, specifically went out to the community in multiple channels to gather feedback on FW. And they pushed to get it addressed during the summit so that they'd be able to tell us players what CCP had in mind. So CCP is working on updating things as they can, while keeping in mind that a total revamp might be needed down the road. From the minutes: CCP Affinity wrote: A lot of the feedback we got from players is that they'd like an overhaul of the full system, but we don't feel that is beneficial at present when a lot of the feedback we're hearing is "we don't have enough to do in FW", "there's not enough PvP targets", "there's no reliable PvE" so we want to fix that side of things first, then perhaps the system issues go away, we'll see. If you look at the overall EVE game right now, the roadmap, the massive freaking changes they're doing in terms of structures, nullsec sov, industry, capital ships... they're MASSIVELY shifting the bedrock of what has driven this game for the past 5-7 years at least. The fact that they're even taking FW into account, given that FW lowsec (and yeah mostly Cal/Gal) is one of the most active areas of the game, is a testament to how much folks like Sugar Kyle and Gorski Carr are willing to step up and represent a group of players that has become ever more whiny and entitled. Grow the hell up already. So 2 decent changes and 2 absolutely terded changes maes a net positive. Ok vesk, i guess we should shut up and be grateful that ccp are 'improving' their game with 2 terrible changes. And rats that chase you about is not gimmic but making sinsihle changes to the isk per hour that wap core stabs enable is. Lol. Its like you are positioning yourself for a csm run of your own on the full knowlege that that all it offers is an odd trip to iceland for the cost of blind obedience. Not a great feat for a military man i guess :)
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1427	Posted - 2015.11.02 13:58:03 - [297] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Telling people to grow up for complaining about terrible mechanics undoing years of progress is not very mature mate. I know you dont plex a great deal, or even log on that much. But dont expect everyone else to be apathetic about bad mechanics just because sugar kyle is the love of you elife and you seem to want a chance at sniffing her csm seat.. Crosi Sugar kyle posted the changes she wanted to push on faction war on her blog. Perhaps if you learned how to intereact with people like a normal human being, you could have posted some constructive feedback. You have to understand that not many people read these forums anymore. No doubt it is because the amount of vitriol some people dish out makes it not worth anyones time or energy. Crosi Wesdo wrote: And cerain. Yes, there was concerns with station lock outs, my own included. But generally they were looked forward to and in retrospect a good thing for the type and volume of pvp in fw. Perhaps it was a bigger deal for amarr since such a large portion of the playerbase consised of alpha machs with carier support camping stations? Lol. Also, no one said we dont push systems to safeguard pvp. You have no clue about he issues the amarr faced. Minmatar had a huge number of systems and they bugged. You could leave a cloaky ship in a plex and they would stop spawning. So it was impossible for us to take back the warzone before they made it take 5xs as long to take a system. I and others in amarr asked if ccp (through petitions and forum posts) could please fix this bug before they implemented this the huge inferno consequences. But they refused. So when we would try to capture a system suddenly the plexes would stop spawning. It's true some people wanted the station lockouts but on the whole every time it was brought up more people voiced opposition. The opposition centered around the idea that if you want fights then don't drive your enemies away. I think this concern was proven correct. And was stated by Thanatos Marathon: Thanatos Marathon wrote: Having said that, it would be a terrible idea. In fact, we don't even want to take Caldari home systems. Killing off all your targets is a great way to end up with no targets. - Than Crosi Wesdo wrote: I alays got the impression you think fw is broken unless one side is incentivised to keep their boot on the other factions neck. The fact this is not the case, but is just a choice, is exactly why it isnt. This comment makes no sense. Having station lockouts makes it much harder for the smaller faction to operate. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Kaivar Lancer Placid Peace Corps 698	Posted - 2015.11.02 14:13:43 - [298] - Quote I'd prefer the timer in each plex to be reduced. Waiting 15-20 minutes doing nothing Is NOT playing a game. Since farmers like to AFK, reduced timers will discourage farming, and encourage FW participants to travel and create conflict.
Arla Sarain 695	Posted - 2015.11.02 15:05:55 - [299] - Quote Kaivar Lancer wrote: I'd prefer the timer in each plex to be reduced. Waiting 15-20 minutes doing nothing Is NOT playing a game. Thank you.
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1573	Posted - 2015.11.03 00:17:09 - [300] - Quote Cearain wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Telling people to grow up for complaining about terrible mechanics undoing years of progress is not very mature mate. I know you dont plex a great deal, or even log on that much. But dont expect everyone else to be apathetic about bad mechanics just because sugar kyle is the love of you elife and you seem to want a chance at sniffing her csm seat.. Crosi Sugar kyle posted the changes she wanted to push on faction war on her blog. Perhaps if you learned how to intereact with people like a normal human being, you could have posted some constructive feedback. You have to understand that not many people read these forums anymore. No doubt it is because the amount of vitriol some people dish out makes it not worth anyones time or energy. Crosi Wesdo wrote: And cerain. Yes, there was concerns with station lock outs, my own included. But generally they were looked forward to and in retrospect a good thing for the type and volume of pvp in fw. Perhaps it was a bigger deal for amarr since such a large portion of the playerbase consised of alpha machs with carier support camping stations? Lol. Also, no one said we dont push systems to safeguard pvp. You have no clue about he issues the amarr faced. Minmatar had a huge number of systems and they bugged. You could leave a cloaky ship in a plex and they would stop spawning. So it was impossible for us to take back the warzone before they made it take 5xs as long to take a system. I and others in amarr asked if ccp (through petitions and forum posts) could please fix this bug before they implemented this the huge inferno consequences. But they refused. So when we would try to capture a system suddenly the plexes would stop spawning. It's true some people wanted the station lockouts but on the whole every time it was brought up more people voiced opposition. The opposition centered around the idea that if you want fights then don't drive your enemies away. I think this concern was proven correct. And was stated by Thanatos Marathon: Thanatos Marathon wrote: Having said that, it would be a terrible idea. In fact, we don't even want to take Caldari home systems. Killing off all your targets is a great way to end up with no targets. - Than Crosi Wesdo wrote: I alays got the impression you think fw is broken unless one side is incentivised to keep their boot on the other factions neck. The fact this is not the case, but is just a choice, is exactly why it isnt. This comment makes no sense. Having station lockouts makes it much harder for the smaller faction to operate. First of all. Blogs are not a normal way of interacting lol. Blogs are literally a soap box. Forums, are by definition the place to discuss things. Just because some people want to drive click revenue in their direction does not make it a good thing. I imagine, having a narrow audience who like you by the nature of them seeking your silly blog might bolster some peoples self worth. In reality, you cant fracture the community amogst 100 different blogs and ezpect a representative view across all of them. Unlike you, i play the game more than i read what others write about it. Others who think that popularity = good perspective on how the game should/does play. Id wager that the bulk of players xont read blogs or the forum. Secondly, yes. Taking that one paragraph from one of thans posts was a magnificent example of your cherry picking. Thanks for that. Me and then dont see eye to eye on many things, but we both know that the effort involved in taking the warzone is gargantuan and that is as primary a reason as any other might be for not taking it and subsequently holding it for any period. Another reason, while the pendulum is a phantom of its former self it can be seen. Effort, and willingness to displace you foe can only come about when several factors align. Those factors are the pendulum and range from the ones mentions to quite subtle ones like general moral, restlessness, a narrative cause and quite a few othera. and they just havent really been aligned for us for a while. Though as always, you point your finger at a single one and blame that for everything you dont like about the game.

Portmanteau oooh ponies 161	Posted - 2015.11.03 00:52:50 - [301] - Quote Kaivar Lancer wrote: I'd prefer the timer in each plex to be reduced. Waiting 15-20 minutes doing nothing Is NOT playing a game. Since farmers like to AFK, reduced timers will discourage farming, and encourage FW participants to travel and create conflict. Why do I get the feeling that halving the plex timer, rather than increase pvp, will double the amount of plexes farmed ?
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 1429	Posted - 2015.11.03 02:21:38 - [302] - Quote We shouldn't make evasion plexing easier by making each plex shoter. But the number of plexes you need to run to make the system vulnerable is too long IMO. When inferno hit they made it so you had to capture 5xs as many net plex to capture a system. (they reduced the vp of each plex from 100 to 20) I think they should take a look at that. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 16	Posted - 2015.11.11 04:24:27 - [303] - Quote Portmanteau wrote: Kaivar Lancer wrote: I'd prefer the timer in each plex to be reduced. Waiting 15-20 minutes doing nothing Is NOT playing a game. Since farmers like to AFK, reduced timers will discourage farming, and encourage FW participants to travel and create conflict. Why do I get the feeling that halving the plex timer, rather than increase pvp, will double the amount of plexes farmed ? Just half the vp for capping a plex then. it makes no difference to the overall time required to cap a system but it means you physically have to be more active to do so. Half time required to cap, half LP and VP per plex and double spawn rate of plex. Makes the system exactly the same time sink but requires more active playing and less time effectively AFK. The rats provide the 'dps check' not we can work on reduce AFKedness (yes its a word I made up) TBD this is probably the better suggestion rather than messing with plex effects and bonuses or trying to make more people pvp. The universe is my playground
IbanezLaney The Church of Awesome 1498	Posted - 2015.11.11 05:31:42 - [304] - Quote Veskrashen wrote: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/Meetings/summit/CSM10-S1-D4.pdf So the main issues right now with FW as a whole are: Broken missions / mission balance Plex Farming Awoxing / militia overviews / cross-faction plexing Standings A lot of folks have a lot of different ideas about how to address them, but if you read the minutes they're all actually touched on in the minutes: Mission balance - CCP Affinity is specifically looking at rebalancing missions, and notes that they'll be adding fast webbing frigates to the L4s in order to cut down on bomber alts being able to run them easily Plex farming - CCP is adding NPC patrols to FW first, which will move around the system and engage players. And yes, they'll chase you if you run. In part this is using FW space as a test bed for the mechanic before they expand it to other areas of the game - but it will definitely make AFK plexing a lot harder than it is now. And they won't even have to introduce gimmicky mechanics like banning WCS or cloaks to do it. Awoxing / cross-militia - They're planning on breaking up the cross-faction alliances and making it a four-way war. That will instantly solve the cross-militia awoxing issues and such. They're aware that they'll need to adjust the tier stuff if that happens, and they know they'll need to find a way to move between the Cal/Gal and Min/Amarr zones more easily, but they note they're working on that stuff too. Standings - For one thing, you'll get suspect timers for entering plexes, which should make it a lot easier for us to engage neutrals without tanking our security status all to hell. They're also looking at allowing individuals in a corp, or corps in an alliance, to join FW without the entire organization needing to. CCP Affininty mentioned they'd even like to decouple standings from FW completely as it would solve a lot of issues. So, when I read people bitching about how nothing is changing and noone listens and they're not doing anything and whine whine whine, it really makes we want to slap the hell out of folks. Folks like Sugar Kyle and Gorski Carr, among others I'm sure, specifically went out to the community in multiple channels to gather feedback on FW. And they pushed to get it addressed during the summit so that they'd be able to tell us players what CCP had in mind. So CCP is working on updating things as they can, while keeping in mind that a total revamp might be needed down the road. From the minutes: CCP Affinity wrote: A lot of the feedback we got from players is that they'd like an overhaul of the full system, but we don't feel that is beneficial at present when a lot of the feedback we're hearing is "we don't have enough to do in FW", "there's not enough PvP targets", "there's no reliable PvE" so we want to fix that side of things first, then perhaps the system issues go away, we'll see. If you look at the overall EVE game right now, the roadmap, the massive freaking changes they're doing in terms of structures, nullsec sov, industry, capital ships... they're MASSIVELY shifting the bedrock of what has driven this game for the past 5-7 years at least. The fact that they're even taking FW into account, given that FW lowsec (and yeah mostly Cal/Gal) is one of the most active areas of the game, is a testament to how much folks like Sugar Kyle and Gorski Carr are willing to step up and represent a group of players that has become ever more whiny and entitled. Grow the hell up already. The last thing we need is more NPCs getting in the way of PVP. The roaming gang idea is terrible. If they want to do something with Faction NPCs that is clever and helps drive conflict - Remove the high sec navy so that NPCs do not stop FW groups from having pvp in High Sec. Sugar Kyle is doing it right - by asking for ideas/feedback and having debate on topics. But Gorski is driven by his own agenda and doesn't consider or listen to any ideas that do not agree with his own. Also - Gorski has never actually been voted in as a CSM. https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1579	Posted - 2015.11.11 11:24:36 - [305] - Quote Gorski is actially an expert at fw. Because, you know, he had a couple of npc corp fw tunes during inferno. I kid you not, he said that lol
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 16	Posted - 2015.11.11 11:33:49 - [306] - Quote I don't trust politicians IRL why would I trust some internet spaceship politicians? After all that is pretty much what the CSM is.... The universe is my playground
Idame Isqua Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 10	Posted - 2015.11.12 15:35:26 - [307] - Quote So I think my idea of having rats from both factions spawning seems pretty popular. Maybe I'm just getting confused with the obvious consensus that more PvE in FW is not wanted Personally I'd like it if they banned FW missions. Not sure how many times this points been covered. But if people enter a plex and they aren't in FW make them flashy? Better yet if for example its a calmil vs galmil plex And lets presume theirs going to be either a calmil rat or a galmil rat or both If I'm in Gal Mil or Cal Mil the rat attacks me If I'm not the rat attacks me and I go suspect I don't think this would be too hard to implement, doesn't the game already have this in some form? Also something about plex timers, what about at least changing how plexs respawn so if theirs a fleet bigger than 5 guys they can plex a system up instead of just sitting around. Make it non linear so X amount of plexs can respawn in a given time. Making activity bursts actually useful Lets face it none right now attacks a system We just wait for some farmers to not refarm a system until it gets really high Expecting 24/7 effort and not adjusting the system to most peoples length of play, is FW's problem. We are not bored and want PvE We are bored and want PvP, whenever we log on, even if its for only 30min. How things are looking currently... null has become a place for people with short attention spans, while FW/lowsec is glacial.
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 117	Posted - 2015.11.12 16:42:32 - [308] - Quote Teimo flipped the other day. So will Kedama. Had nothing to do with farmers. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1584	Posted - 2015.11.13 04:01:34 - [309] - Quote And im almosrlt certain that 2 opposing rats in each plex as a dps check for offensive AND defensive plexint was my idea :P
Crosi Wesdo War and Order 1584	Posted - 2015.11.13 04:10:36 - [310] - Quote Oreb Wing wrote: Teimo flipped the other day. So will Kedama. Had nothing to do with farmers. Only amarr has the hubris to announce victory on the forum 2 days before their attack began :p

Cpt Mangrum Guardians of the Gate I Aim To Misbehave 9	Posted - 2015.11.13 12:14:19 - [311] - Quote To the man at CCP who actually reads this. One suggestion was that if a system was controlled my your militia, and someone has negative standing towards your militia they cannot dock in system stations. This is absolutely a game changer as long as this includes non faction warfare people as well. And remember not all low sec in controlled by FW.
Master Sergeant MacRobert Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 244	Posted - 2015.11.13 12:50:48 - [312] - Quote Cpt Mangrum wrote: To the man at CCP who actually reads this. One suggestion was that if a system was controlled my your militia, and someone has negative standing towards your militia they cannot dock in system stations. This is absolutely a game changer as long as this includes non faction warfare people as well. And remember not all low sec in controlled by FW. This should not be done. Neutrals are .... erm ... "Neutral" by definition. Less stick more carrots. What needs to happen is generate real incentives to being in Militia's and I mean incentives to being in long term. The prime thing to change, for neturals in the FW WZ, is prevention of the sec status loss for all inside a FW complex. This is already on the table. Station lockouts for neutrals does not bode well (another conflict suppressant when more conflict drivers are needed). "Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 117	Posted - 2015.11.13 14:13:06 - [313] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Oreb Wing wrote: Teimo flipped the other day. So will Kedama. Had nothing to do with farmers. Only amarr has the hubris to announce victory on the forum 2 days before their attack began :p Hehe.. Gotta kick the hornets nest man. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 117	Posted - 2015.11.13 15:09:47 - [314] - Quote Cpt Mangrum wrote: To the man at CCP who actually reads this. One suggestion was that if a system was controlled my your militia, and someone has negative standing towards your militia they cannot dock in system stations. This is absolutely a game changer as long as this includes non faction warfare people as well. And remember not all low sec in controlled by FW. I agree with sgt here. Neutrals are not so bad. We provide quite a bit of content for each other. The plex flag on neutrals is good. It need only last two minutes, like the dueling aggression window, except uncontrolled. Also, a lot of FW systems are main branch points towards null and other parts of space. Not being able to dock between all of this hurts too many people. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Irya Boone Never Surrender. 468	Posted - 2015.11.13 21:47:09 - [315] - Quote already told -2 npcs in plex one gallente one calda -disabled acces to WCS ships -increase the spawn rate of large/medium and maybe small plexes -add a new one for BC and below ( with gate ) -no links effects in plex unless on grid ... - no lvl 4 missions for FW. only lvl 5 or more ...^^ and put a system that give you regular isk for your lp and not market driven , because actually people don't want their lp to loose value , and this is non sense , we should fight for more ( lp ) and not for max lp value .. CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !! you shall all bow and pray BoB
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 341	Posted - 2015.11.16 21:36:49 - [316] - Quote Oreb Wing wrote: Teimo flipped the other day. So will Kedama. Had nothing to do with farmers. Yet farmers have an impact on the warzone.
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 118	Posted - 2015.11.17 00:00:07 - [317] - Quote They most definitely do, but we are far from helpless to counter their affect with focused short bursts of sustained pressure. Your net is too large. Bring it in and you'll catch the fish you're looking for. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 347	Posted - 2015.11.18 20:38:14 - [318] - Quote Oreb Wing wrote: They most definitely do, but we are far from helpless to counter their affect with focused short bursts of sustained pressure. Your net is too large. Bring it in and you'll catch the fish you're looking for. On a particular system or constellation, sure. But warzone is all about manhours spent in plexes and the farmers give the advantage to whoever they're plexing for. The general militia gets to pvp wherever they want while the farmers take care of the warzone for them.
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 118	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:39:54 - [319] - Quote I understand completely. Until the lure is removed and things get balanced out, you just have to hit where you can and enjoy whoever it is that cares to fight you off. I despise the saying, It is what it is, so I will only say keep your head up and find enjoyment where you can. Fly well. o7 There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 118	Posted - 2015.11.18 21:52:37 - [320] - Quote Everyone thinks we need a whole bunch of adjustments to LP or rewards. Just deny tech 2 and tech 3 advanced hulls from activating the mission gates and that single-handedly will be the biggest judo kick in the **** to donations. If you want something constructive to do, just hit their leveled up systems. Force them down to donate more. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom

Ria Nieyli Nieyli Enterprises 35331	Posted - 2015.11.19 05:52:30 - [321] - Quote Four-way war would be abysmal. Also, what would happen to standings in case the allies break up?
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 866	Posted - 2015.11.19 14:39:53 - [322] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: Four-way war would be abysmal. Also, what would happen to standings in case the allies break up? The actual empire navies that were allies, would still be allies. The militias, which are supplemental military forces that engage in rebel or terrorist activities in opposition to the regular navies, will no longer be allied. To make it more simpler, the militias will have their own rules of engagement that are different from the empire navies; which we essentially now have.
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 21	Posted - 2015.11.19 23:23:28 - [323] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: Four-way war would be abysmal. Also, what would happen to standings in case the allies break up? The actual empire navies that were allies, would still be allies. The militias, which are supplemental military forces that engage in rebel or terrorist activities in opposition to the regular navies, will no longer be allied. To make it more simpler, the militias will have their own rules of engagement that are different from the empire navies; which we essentially now have. So minnie militia pilots will still have access to Gal high sec without the navy messing them? But would be open to engagement from gall militia? The universe is my playground
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 867	Posted - 2015.11.20 03:05:17 - [324] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: Four-way war would be abysmal. Also, what would happen to standings in case the allies break up? The actual empire navies that were allies, would still be allies. The militias, which are supplemental military forces that engage in rebel or terrorist activities in opposition to the regular navies, will no longer be allied. To make it more simpler, the militias will have their own rules of engagement that are different from the empire navies; which we essentially now have. So minnie militia pilots will still have access to Gal high sec without the navy messing them? But would be open to engagement from gall militia? That part hasn't been addressed, but I hope that's how it works out. The whole idea is to fix it so you don't take a standings hit for shooting/killing allied militia members.
Silverbackyererse The Church of Awesome 172	Posted - 2015.11.20 04:01:32 - [325] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Madrax573 wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: Ria Nieyli wrote: Four-way war would be abysmal. Also, what would happen to standings in case the allies break up? The actual empire navies that were allies, would still be allies. The militias, which are supplemental military forces that engage in rebel or terrorist activities in opposition to the regular navies, will no longer be allied. To make it more simpler, the militias will have their own rules of engagement that are different from the empire navies; which we essentially now have. So minnie militia pilots will still have access to Gal high sec without the navy messing them? But would be open to engagement from gall militia? The whole idea is to fix it so you don't take a standings hit for shooting/killing allied militia members. Really? Thought it aimed at preventing cross plexing the other allied war zone and blue killing from the allied militias - which I thought doesnt currently have a penalty. At least my Amarr standings indicate that there is no penalty.
Madrax573 Bastion of Mad Behaviour 21	Posted - 2015.11.20 05:03:28 - [326] - Quote Yeah I thought it was to stop purple ganking of the unwary but GIVING them a standing hit or making them fair game so the new guys don't just get ganked by 'friendlies'' I never had any issue killing purples when I was in Calmil. oh yeah and the cross plexing crap that happens when one WZ is stagnant because the locals don't want to fight the war machine of the of the enemy. The universe is my playground
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 870	Posted - 2015.11.20 16:05:32 - [327] - Quote Madrax573 wrote: Yeah I thought it was to stop purple ganking of the unwary but GIVING them a standing hit or making them fair game so the new guys don't just get ganked by 'friendlies'' I never had any issue killing purples when I was in Calmil. oh yeah and the cross plexing crap that happens when one WZ is stagnant because the locals don't want to fight the war machine of the of the enemy. Combination of both purple ganking and cross plexing. When you get attacked by purps and you shoot back, you take a standings hit not only to your allies militia, but also your own militia; because that's is how the current standings mechanics work.
Cearain Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis 1443	Posted - 2015.12.02 19:22:40 - [328] - Quote Have any faction war changes made any of the roadmaps ccp put out? The one I checked had nothing. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 120	Posted - 2015.12.04 15:24:02 - [329] - Quote ROFL https://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-december-release/ Aw man. CCP has melted my hard cold heart. gg squids Welcome to the world of button spinning. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 905	Posted - 2015.12.04 15:56:22 - [330] - Quote Oreb Wing wrote: ROFL https://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-december-release/ Aw man. This stuff is great. Which part? The webbing in the Caldari and Minmatar missions?

Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 120	Posted - 2015.12.04 18:16:55 - [331] - Quote Yes. I got a good long laugh for that webbing frig. Hey, at least the Hookie got a great dmg buff. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
Silverbackyererse The Church of Awesome 176	Posted - 2015.12.04 22:13:13 - [332] - Quote Hookie got a small buff (very small). Let's not get carried away Oreb. Not being a mission runner myself I smiled at the webbing frig introductions to the Min Cal missions. Living in hope that Galmil will now turn into a mission running carebear entity and the gazillions of State Pro bears will have to plex for their elpee. A man can dream.
IbanezLaney The Church of Awesome 1507	Posted - 2015.12.04 22:25:15 - [333] - Quote Silverbackyererse wrote: Hookie got a small buff (very small). Let's not get carried away Oreb. Not being a mission runner myself I smiled at the webbing frig introductions to the Min Cal missions. Living in hope that Galmil will now turn into a mission running carebear entity and the gazillions of State Pro bears will have to plex for their elpee. A man can dream. People also forget - Hooky got a massive agility nerf a while back because 'Fozzie' This took the Hookbills only redeeming feature away - leaving it under powered compared to all other Navy Frigates. The damage bonus will only help bring it more in line with other Navy Frigates. I thought Galmil was already a mission running faction - I can't be imagining all those multiboxed Cloaky/Warp Stabbed Ishtars and VNIs. https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
ALUCARD 1208 Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop 424	Posted - 2015.12.04 22:30:20 - [334] - Quote multibox vnis and istars are not optimal so no.. and RIP farmatar BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
IbanezLaney The Church of Awesome 1507	Posted - 2015.12.04 22:33:57 - [335] - Quote ALUCARD 1208 wrote: multibox vnis and istars are not optimal so no.. and RIP farmatar A fair few are doing it. We see them all the time. https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
ALUCARD 1208 Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop 424	Posted - 2015.12.04 22:38:55 - [336] - Quote you sure there multibox and not just 2 peeps doing them together thats the easiest way.... but 2 hawks or jacdaws are better because of lower travel times and avoid camps easier BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Oreb Wing Black Fox Marauders 120	Posted - 2015.12.05 00:52:17 - [337] - Quote I run them solo in the VNI sometimes. I can't imagine how long it would take a pair of jackdaws or Hawks to do it, since one of you would be jammed out half the time? Afterburner fit? So many missiles! Anyway, I don't do them that often. If I can't sleep on my days off i'll hop on maybe for them. They are super boring. Even with half the ECM I think they will still be inaccessible to most pilots. Cloak Warp ftw! And I only mobile depot stabs to get through the Pyne/Hikk camps. Only an Ishtar can give up those lows with the natural resists. There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
ALUCARD 1208 Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop 426	Posted - 2015.12.05 02:08:03 - [338] - Quote Oreb Wing wrote: I run them solo in the VNI sometimes. I can't imagine how long it would take a pair of jackdaws or Hawks to do it, since one of you would be jammed out half the time? Afterburner fit? So many missiles! Anyway, I don't do them that often. If I can't sleep on my days off i'll hop on maybe for them. They are super boring. Even with half the ECM I think they will still be inaccessible to most pilots. Cloak Warp ftw! And I only mobile depot stabs to get through the Pyne/Hikk camps. Only an Ishtar can give up those lows with the natural resists. takes literally a minute or so to do if yo pick up the right missions and also eccm is ur friend hardly ever jammed i also use a mwd the fit looks dodgy but works perfectly. BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Ria Nieyli 37115	Posted - 2015.12.24 13:27:41 - [339] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: That part hasn't been addressed, but I hope that's how it works out. The whole idea is to fix it so you don't take a standings hit for shooting/killing allied militia members. How is that a problem as opposed to me getting locked out of Amarr even though I have good standings towards them, etc.


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