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Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.11.12 14:40:00 - [1] Fanfest has been awesome, currently nursing a hangover after 3 days of drinking and being out till 6am on saturday (have today to recover beforemy flight home tomorrow). Here is some of the highlights from the roundtables I was in on which i remember. Roleplay & Events 1. Unfinished arcs will be finished, 2. amarr will have an emperor come next year (its the next big 'world event') 3. things are obviously going to fall into all out war for faction warfare 4. content team has ballooned in number and they finally have dedicated full time paid staff to work on stories, events of all scales so should not see what we had in the past of arcs going unfinished as the devs were retasked to other static content previously so the dynamic content will have 100% attention. 5. NPC's will start to use IGS a lot more than previously to engage us in debate 6. Tony & gnauton explained nicely the link between us (the elite capsuler community) and the factions, where we fit in when it comes to influence we can have on each other, 7. Will be attention to remembering previous allegiances from past events to allow a history to develop between the players and npcs and as an extension npc's might start returning the favours many alliances, corps have given in 'aiding' them such as MC & Mordus from a 'we know who our friends are' perspective. Faction Warfare 1. Initiatally for players (not corps or alliances) who can join an npc corp of one of the four empires providing they have appropiate standing such as I could join the Republic Fleet Expeditionary Force which will be just like starter corps, you dont have hangers or corp wallets for eg. 2. Each corp will be at war with one of the others so you can attack members of your enemy anywhere 3. NPC characters controlled by CCP will be in charge of the corp so they can trigger events/missions through 'corp chat' 4. You earn 'loyalty points' for killing your enemy (npc or player) ships or static objectives through npc agent missions. 5. Points can be spent at your corps 'store' which will provide you with ships & equipment 6. You earn ranks/medals through completing objectives & gaining lp's 7. Stage two will look at static sovereignty objectives in border zones 8. Talk of having new border systems which are contested over and only able to be entered by the FW player corps. 9. Talk on standings effects, you will decrease in standings to your enemy over time, increase to +10 your own factions as objectives are completed and impact of previous standings effects/status from agent missions as we have currently 10. More talk of linking together current corps/alliances in the 'future' after stage 1-3 but sensibly the FW concept has been scaled down to begin with and will grow from there (it was huge concept previously) Plexes and missions 1. Current plexes will stay as they are with new hidden plexes being added 2. Spawn times are changing to prevent the post dt rush with a 1-5 hour window in which the key npcs will spawn (they will spawn at any point between 1-5 hours after the dt but not straight away like current) 3. Missions will be changed to have 'triggers' which can initiate storyline missions through player activities as an alternative to asking an agent 4. You will get option to give lp's to other players to allow groups to do missions and share the reward (not sure what was said on standings) 5. Talk on the passkeys and the key static station spawning as well but cant remember the specifics thats what i remember from the talks anyway - was great to sit down with the devs and chat with them over the features/design and future. Was a blast and great to meet you all at last!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.12 14:42:00 - [2] God bless NPC corps. --------- Boryokudan Recruitment. Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Eveanne Gallente Sperm Trumpet Industries	Posted - 2006.11.12 15:00:00 - [3] Good job Hakera thx for the info All looks positive \o/
Missy Mai'la	Posted - 2006.11.12 15:07:00 - [4] On the test server you cant even scan npcs with the scanner, belt or complex, none show up on scanner. I think that combined with random respawning complexes is a bad thing, as you might run the complex to find no overseers spawned. This will result in farmers camping inside the complex 24/7.
Scythus Aratan Poseidon's Wingmen Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.11.12 15:45:00 - [5] I hope they don't decide to exclude anyone in player Corps (99% of the playerbase) from participating in factional warfare.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.12 15:48:00 - [6] Originally by: Scythus Aratan I hope they don't decide to exclude anyone in player Corps (99% of the playerbase) from participating in factional warfare. By the looks of it, they will. At least in the early stages of factional warfare, it will be limited to NPC corps because of game mechanics. --------- Boryokudan Recruitment. Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.11.12 15:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Scythus Aratan I hope they don't decide to exclude anyone in player Corps (99% of the playerbase) from participating in factional warfare. at least initially, you will have to leave your corp snd join the npc one. It was very much stressed by us that corps and alliances like ushra'khan or CVA are interested in being able to take part but for the first implementation, it will be 4 npc corps which you will have the choice of joining. We talked a lot about the problems of numbers and balancing the sides, really it is better to start small with the concept and build it up rather than have a huge concept that ends up being too complex to implement and balance with too many features. i do have a feeling it will be a case of lots of alts joining as the initial standings requirement is only +2.0 which you get from the start. Coupled with the good changes to new characters, it will be fairly easy to have an alt join in.
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.12 15:59:00 - [8] Edited by: Blacklight on 12/11/2006 16:02:34 Originally by: Hakera Faction Warfare 1. Initiatally for players (not corps or alliances) who can join an npc corp of one of the four empires providing they have appropiate standing such as I could join the Republic Fleet Expeditionary Force which will be just like starter corps, you dont have hangers or corp wallets for eg. 2. Each corp will be at war with one of the others so you can attack members of your enemy anywhere 3. NPC characters controlled by CCP will be in charge of the corp so they can trigger events/missions through 'corp chat' 4. You earn 'loyalty points' for killing your enemy (npc or player) ships or static objectives through npc agent missions. 5. Points can be spent at your corps 'store' which will provide you with ships & equipment 6. You earn ranks/medals through completing objectives & gaining lp's 7. Stage two will look at static sovereignty objectives in border zones 8. Talk of having new border systems which are contested over and only able to be entered by the FW player corps. 9. Talk on standings effects, you will decrease in standings to your enemy over time, increase to +10 your own factions as objectives are completed and impact of previous standings effects/status from agent missions as we have currently 10. More talk of linking together current corps/alliances in the 'future' after stage 1-3 but sensibly the FW concept has been scaled down to begin with and will grow from there (it was huge concept previously) Dissappointing. For the roleplay alliances and corps that looks like a huge let down. It's not particularly enticing for those of us in the big player alliances to get involved at all either. Why would I want some faceless alt to gain medals and recognition? What I was looking forward to was throwing the corp and/or alliance into the fray on one faction's side and trying to make a big impact... not to mention the possibility of a player driven alliance being able to take on (in some form) one of the NPC empires. Looks like it's going to be a very long time before we get anywhere near the potential I was hoping to see from factional warfare Blog
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:00:00 - [9] Oh well, looks like I won't be able to take part in the one thing in Kali that I was looking forward to then. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Kharakan Amarr GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Rodj Blake Oh well, looks like I won't be able to take part in the one thing in Kali that I was looking forward to then. 'Chickens' and 'hatched' and 'not counting' and stuff Originally by: Joshua Foiritain (to Dark Shikari) HAHAHA I KNOW YOUR ACCOUUNT NAME TIME TO DIE this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:04:00 - [11] Originally by: Rodj Blake Oh well, looks like I won't be able to take part in the one thing in Kali that I was looking forward to then. Agreed, it's the single most dissappointing bit of news to come out recently, I had really high hopes for factional warfare. Blog
Miss Social	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:12:00 - [12] Originally by: Missy Mai'la On the test server you cant even scan npcs with the scanner, belt or complex, none show up on scanner. I think that combined with random respawning complexes is a bad thing, as you might run the complex to find no overseers spawned. This will result in farmers camping inside the complex 24/7. What? No Mr. Pirate I wasn't camping this complex. Ah let me take leave before I get in your way. I dare say it won't be a problem outside of empire.
Vendrin Caldari APEX Unlimited	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Rodj Blake Oh well, looks like I won't be able to take part in the one thing in Kali that I was looking forward to then. QFT. CCP needs to change this immediatley. _____________________________________ APEX Unlimited is recruiting. Join channel APEXCOM for information!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Blacklight Originally by: Rodj Blake Oh well, looks like I won't be able to take part in the one thing in Kali that I was looking forward to then. Agreed, it's the single most dissappointing bit of news to come out recently, I had really high hopes for factional warfare. I see an easy fix. Instead of the corporation called "Minmatar Expeditional Force", they make the alliance with the same name, so corps can join in. Might mean that you'll need alliance hangars, though, but that's a price we're willing to pay. Right? RIGHT? EVE isn't about NPC corporations, it's about player corporations after all - then again, nothing is stopping them from having the executor corporations as NPC corporations. - EVE is sick.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:22:00 - [15] According to my memory, the blogs stated somewhere that factional warfare would be introductionary to combat PvP. So it is no surprise that it does not bring much to the already well established combat PvP corps/alliances. But I also suspect this only to be the beginning and will only include the major 4 empires so far. There is still lots of possibilities with the rest of the factions with players of all levels. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Celestal	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:48:00 - [16] I guess factional warfare is fighting for ones faction , not lets join our corp/alliance into the strongest factions fighting arm and get some easy empire kills. I would think that only corps/alliances made up of a single factions pilots should be able to join that factions fighting force . Having corps/alliances with multi faction pilots joining in one factions fighting forces makes a mockery of the term `factional warfare` . I know people are going to start shouting about privateers and mercenaries but lets be realistic about it , if it can be manipulated by corps/alliances to give 1 faction an overwhelming advantage then it will be . I mean can u seriously see bob members dividing up into their relevant factions and fighting each other ? . Why would bob a 0.0 alliance want to fight for an empire faction ? . ( not an anti bob post , substitute the bob name with any 0.0 multi faction alliance , like ascn , lv ae etc )
Gindar Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.12 17:03:00 - [17] i am very anxious to know if it's at all possible to use this system to gank macrominers who hide in NPC corps. it says they would have to join a different npc corp just so you can attack
Albus Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 17:04:00 - [18] Edited by: Albus on 12/11/2006 17:04:54 Edited by: Albus on 12/11/2006 17:04:35 Originally by: Hakera i do have a feeling it will be a case of lots of alts joining as the initial standings requirement is only +2.0 which you get from the start. Coupled with the good changes to new characters, it will be fairly easy to have an alt join in. You're probably right about the alts. Showing your age as well, you only get 1.0 faction standing these days for finishing your tutorial missions. Has been that way for well over 2 years :-)
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.12 17:17:00 - [19] I know it's probably too much for the first iteration of Factional Warfare, maybe even the second, but CCP should look at getting the pirate factions to exploit the wartime situation by grabbing their own capsuleer hirelings as well.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.12 18:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Celestal I guess factional warfare is fighting for ones faction , not lets join our corp/alliance into the strongest factions fighting arm and get some easy empire kills. I would think that only corps/alliances made up of a single factions pilots should be able to join that factions fighting force . Having corps/alliances with multi faction pilots joining in one factions fighting forces makes a mockery of the term `factional warfare` . I know people are going to start shouting about privateers and mercenaries but lets be realistic about it , if it can be manipulated by corps/alliances to give 1 faction an overwhelming advantage then it will be . I mean can u seriously see bob members dividing up into their relevant factions and fighting each other ? . Why would bob a 0.0 alliance want to fight for an empire faction ? . ( not an anti bob post , substitute the bob name with any 0.0 multi faction alliance , like ascn , lv ae etc ) Only allowing corps to join the NPC alliance if they have a high corp standing with that particular nation, or if all of its members individually have a minimum standing would be one way of preventing faction warfare from becoming a 0.0 style gankfest. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Vasco Falcon	Posted - 2006.11.12 18:26:00 - [21] Edited by: Vasco Falcon on 12/11/2006 18:27:32 Initally the factional war thing looked quite disappointing, but thinking about it unlike other npc corps for a start u wont have many macro miners polluting it and hopefully it will attract more laid back/casually minded pvpers who want some opportunist pvp fun in empire. In RMS there was quite good comradeship between those who wanted to interact in corp chat and vast majority of ppl were helpful, wheres Brutor atm is basically people going from A to B re player corps or in the corp cos their mostly inactive it seems, its certainly a bit too quet, so i think npc run pvp corps will be more interactive and ppl will be more likely doing stuff together as theyve joined the corps for the same reason. Anyway i hope they work well, hopefully they will but only time will tell. And i do very strongly think there should be restrictions from ppl quitting and rejoining the pvp npc corps whenever it suits them, such as faction loss or even a timer a few days/weeks long.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.12 18:38:00 - [22] Originally by: Celestal I guess factional warfare is fighting for ones faction , not lets join our corp/alliance into the strongest factions fighting arm and get some easy empire kills. too bad those who have already been fighting for their faction for years wont be allowed to participate then. i can certainly understand that ccp wants to bring new pilots into pvp but restricting factional warfare like this is simply wrong. they could just as easily allow pilots to align themself with a faction without leaving their corp and simply grant them killrights on the opposing faction.
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2006.11.12 18:43:00 - [23] This will devastate many small corps as members drop out to take part in FW. It almost looks like just another reason to get an Alt.... guess what, some of us prefer to make all their accomplishments with one character and some of us cant afford more than one account anyway. Some corps will lose key members to this often ruining plans all the members have held for months. Can you imagine what happens to a 30 man corp if the one player with refining or manufacturing skills leaves? It's not like me to whine but this is going to bug every roleplayer or semi-roleplayer in a corp at the moment. Its going to destroy many small corps, and it's quite possibly going to lead to the fall of some of the greatest roleplay alliances in the game.
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.11.12 18:44:00 - [24] the first incarnation has to be simple really, it would be nice if they allowed corps to join in but you have then a problem and lots of headaches in balancing the player counts on each side and the probability of it turning into an arena and being abused by players for a no strings open pvp anywhere system. I guess my fear is that FW becomes too big and abused as an open invitation for everyone to slug it out in jita and disregarding the character reason for being part of fW if you start too big and allow existing corps or alliances to join in straight away. yes the standings is an issue, it would have to be linked to a players standing rather than a corp or alliance if they get allowed and imo should be much higher around +5.0 mark. The issue with corps and alliances would be balance of size, what if one day BoB joins in caldari and before you know it there are 300 more players overnight blobbing jita and they then 'unflag' themselves a few days later and leave. I do agree that there are a lot of what if's that would need balancing like the issues of eligibility to join in and leaving condictions, corp/alliance standings effects to lead to a complexity of the design that would be very open to abuse unless there were strict standards on entry conditions and restrictions/penalty on leaving. I see FW as an option for players to get involved and affect border zones of space without too much commitment but it is also possible corps and alliances get involved through the normal chain of events allowing FW to be akin to an entry level system. Its essentially a difference between a militia which is the existing corps and alliances to the full time 'navy' which will be the FW corps.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.12 18:47:00 - [25] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 12/11/2006 18:48:34 FW sounds more like npc missions 2.0 to me. Missions with some meaning, npc consequences and rewards, but still just missions. Its good though, because maybe it will allow people to do co-op pve. But the real game will still be in 0.0. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics	Posted - 2006.11.12 18:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Blacklight Edited by: Blacklight on 12/11/2006 16:02:34 Originally by: Hakera Faction Warfare 1. Initiatally for players (not corps or alliances) who can join an npc corp of one of the four empires providing they have appropiate standing such as I could join the Republic Fleet Expeditionary Force which will be just like starter corps, you dont have hangers or corp wallets for eg. 2. Each corp will be at war with one of the others so you can attack members of your enemy anywhere 3. NPC characters controlled by CCP will be in charge of the corp so they can trigger events/missions through 'corp chat' 4. You earn 'loyalty points' for killing your enemy (npc or player) ships or static objectives through npc agent missions. 5. Points can be spent at your corps 'store' which will provide you with ships & equipment 6. You earn ranks/medals through completing objectives & gaining lp's 7. Stage two will look at static sovereignty objectives in border zones 8. Talk of having new border systems which are contested over and only able to be entered by the FW player corps. 9. Talk on standings effects, you will decrease in standings to your enemy over time, increase to +10 your own factions as objectives are completed and impact of previous standings effects/status from agent missions as we have currently 10. More talk of linking together current corps/alliances in the 'future' after stage 1-3 but sensibly the FW concept has been scaled down to begin with and will grow from there (it was huge concept previously) Dissappointing. For the roleplay alliances and corps that looks like a huge let down. It's not particularly enticing for those of us in the big player alliances to get involved at all either. Why would I want some faceless alt to gain medals and recognition? What I was looking forward to was throwing the corp and/or alliance into the fray on one faction's side and trying to make a big impact... not to mention the possibility of a player driven alliance being able to take on (in some form) one of the NPC empires. Looks like it's going to be a very long time before we get anywhere near the potential I was hoping to see from factional warfare So what youre basicaly saying is you and the band of e-thugs arn't gona get the control and influence to put the smack down on everybody the way you wished.... im sure Rodders will be crying his eyes out about now. Well never mind, there's all that 0.0 space for you to continue to exploit, playing the overlords with your many questionable methods and extremes. I actualy looking quite forward to this tbh now, there giving me/others something good and enjoyable to have fun with... structured npc content.. player lead and influenced.... but not taken the extremes the way it is in player alliances... which turns many away from it (not everybody likes being immersed in faccist directorate) There's many including me that are soooo happy about that, ccp are actualy doing something more constructive to get the roleplaying going, mixed in the pvp/teamwork... constructive goals.. ect. Ill buy that over the 0.0 player influenced meaningless existance any day.... ______
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.11.12 19:04:00 - [27] Edited by: Hakera on 12/11/2006 19:06:08 btw the faction warfare roundtable was filmed (we were surrounded by a lot of lights and cameras) so in case ive killed too many brain cells with tuborg and vitoc and forgotten/misinterpreted stuff, you can watch that when its released and im sure its HAMMERTIME! for a blog about it :)
Gindar Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.12 21:11:00 - [28] so as a gallente with 9.0 standings with federation navy and 4.5 with gallente federation, i still won't be able to attack caldari players who have stayed in a caldari npc corp for over a year? here i was hoping it would be the solution against macro miners friends you have no idea! in macro intel we held hands and praised the lord (our ccp) every night asking for factional warfare to solve this npc corp dilemna!
Maggot Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.12 22:17:00 - [29] Edited by: Maggot on 12/11/2006 22:24:18 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf This will devastate many small corps as members drop out to take part in FW. It almost looks like just another reason to get an Alt.... guess what, some of us prefer to make all their accomplishments with one character and some of us cant afford more than one account anyway. Some corps will lose key members to this often ruining plans all the members have held for months. Can you imagine what happens to a 30 man corp if the one player with refining or manufacturing skills leaves? It's not like me to whine but this is going to bug every roleplayer or semi-roleplayer in a corp at the moment. Its going to destroy many small corps, and it's quite possibly going to lead to the fall of some of the greatest roleplay alliances in the game. I agree this is a real concern. The only solace I could find from the initial proposal is that we could at least identify those working for each side and kill them in low sec empire at the cost of a security hit.
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.11.12 22:32:00 - [30] I agree with this in principle as having the 0.0 alliances blob the heck out of FW will ruin it but exception should be made for those who have been carrying the FW torches for years now. I think they've earned it. ------------------ CEO of TKI
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.12 22:39:00 - [31] I suppose the main job of FW, then (at least to start) is just as a door for unaffiliated noobs / solo players to get in on some good team PvP. Shame it's not getting the full treatment for a while, though. -----------------------------------------------
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.12 22:53:00 - [32] Originally by: Gindar so as a gallente with 9.0 standings with federation navy and 4.5 with gallente federation, i still won't be able to attack caldari players who have stayed in a caldari npc corp for over a year? here i was hoping it would be the solution against macro miners friends you have no idea! in macro intel we held hands and praised the lord (our ccp) every night asking for factional warfare to solve this npc corp dilemna! 1. NPC (starter corps) will never be part of faction warfare for logical reasons of not allowing people free griefing of the new players. 2. NPC (default corps) will never be part of faction warfare since there are plenty of legitimate players who have no interest in fighting for, eg., the Caldari State. Just as there are plenty of Caldari people and corporations who get along just dandy with Gallente and vice versa. 3. Macro miners have no standing, they mine. Reaping the empire's riches without giving anything back gives you not standing. - EVE is sick.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.12 22:54:00 - [33] Faction Warfare being limited to those willing to drop from their respective corps/alliances in order to join an NPC corp is a tremendous letdown. This will ultimately hurt small corps who wind up dissolving because members leave to go have more fun elsewhere. It may even hurt larger corps as players might spend more time on FW enabled alts... instead of hanging out with their 'real' corps. This doesn't seem like a major technical hurdle to overcome. Since 'corporation' and 'alliance' affiliations already exist... why not create 'racial affiliation' statistics for each player? This particular statistic for each player can be activated once they talk to an NPC corp agent in charge of recruitment. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.12 22:59:00 - [34] Originally by: Patch86 I suppose the main job of FW, then (at least to start) is just as a door for unaffiliated noobs / solo players to get in on some good team PvP. Shame it's not getting the full treatment for a while, though. There's going to be PvP, alright, but I doubt they'll get much team along with it. I can already see how to exploit the system, for the ones that will be successful are the players whom are already a team. A player corporation is split, and they join a faction. They use teamspeak, mutual investments still managed by the original corporation, and with team effort win not for the faction but for themselves. In the process they get to kill a lot of people without a clue, so it's pretty fun, too. It's sad to say, but the soloplayers are a step down on the organisational ladder, and for those well established above them it is easy to step down if challenges prove fun and exclusive on the lower levels. I believe that faction warfare might be better used as a means of communicating contact between equal minded people, which would require, of course, that the established be allowed to compete with and against those whom are not. What I mean is, allow them to prove their worth. - EVE is sick.
Gerome Doutrande 4S Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:03:00 - [35] Edited by: Gerome Doutrande on 12/11/2006 23:04:21 Originally by: Galk ... which turns many away from it (not everybody likes being immersed in faccist directorate) I'm taking the liberty of "increasing your immersion through a petition" for that. Enjoy.
Gigi Barbagrigia Latent Appliance Fetishists	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:15:00 - [36] Small start is good. Was there any talk about limiting individual factions to only use their tech? Fleet of Gal Rokhs will look silly.
Endlos Null Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:18:00 - [37] http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/gameId/14/setView/features/loadFeature/960/MagnusBergssonCMO.html Originally by: MMORPG.com Speaking of factional warfare, What effect do you see it having on the day to day life of those not directly involved? To what extent will the borders fluctuate? Originally by: Magnus Bergsson That's all to early to determine, we need considerable play testing until we finally decide to what extent the soldiers fighting for their empires will have. On the other hand it should also be considered that we want Factional Warfare to be an entry into PvP combat hopefully sparking interaction which leads to these warriors to crate their own Alliances.
Jake Devlin	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:21:00 - [38] is not the simplest way to let player corps in on FW be to allow the corps to gain standing with the npc corps which, when high enough, lets them shoot that corps enimies and be shot by those same enimies.... i.e set up a way in which player corps can ally themselves to the npc corps. perhaps have it that when you lose standing with the enemy of one of the corps you also gain standing with that corp. hence keeping it pvp. problem solved
Silver Sarena Caldari Coreward Pan-Galactic	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:33:00 - [39] I remember way back when it was FIRST being talked about, FW was being touted as LONG OVERDUE attention being given to the people in the game that didn't do much (or any) PvPing. You know, the carebears that BUILD all of the weapons and ships all the bloodthirsty PvPers fight with, but who also like to fight NPCs. It was being ADVERTISED, at least at first, as a MASSIVE increase in content that was NOT PvP. Now, we get down to implimentation and HERE WE GO AGAIN: CCP depending on its own PLAYERS to make the game fun rather than providing entertaining content like what we pay them for. Decieved AGAIN. CCP cheaps out AGAIN. Empire wars are some of the WORST examples of gankfests in the entire game. Why would someone want to WILLINGLY leave themselves open for that? Think about it. If you sign up for this FW stuff, there is NO WHERE IN THE GAME THAT YOU CAN GO WHERE IT WILL BE SAFE. NO WHERE. You can be shot and downed in ANY system in the game if you sign on for this. I mean, that is all that they are trying to do here: Give the real bloodthirsty SOBs that live in deep space and exist for not other purpose than to GRIEF other players a reason to come back into empire and prey on the players there. Make no mistake, that is exactly what is going to happen. I am VERY disappointed in how this is being implemented CCP. For GOD'S sake get OFF THE PvP WAGON!!! Start adding some content for your customers that like to COOPERATE with other people in some other endeavor BESIDES killing other players!! How about more and diversified missions to the existing system?!? It has been stated in more than one dev blog that the mission system was upgraded so that adding new missions would be easier. But, I haven't seen a new one yet. Oh, what the hell am I doing "screaming" at a brick wall? No one's listening. It's not like the devs care what non-PvP players do of think anyway.... they do what they please, when they please, and how they please. And it is that attitude that is going to end Eve. Again, very disappointed devs!! Start adding some content that doesn't involve PvP PLEASE!!!!! * *
Dust Angel True Core	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:36:00 - [40] Originally by: Silver Sarena I Again, very disappointed devs!! Start adding some content that doesn't involve PvP PLEASE!!!!! adding 8 ships + the various capitol ships added each patch. Thats a lot more content thats "non" pvp mirel yirrin > "DU HAST VERBROKEN DAS FORUMERN RULEN! DU SWINE!"
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:48:00 - [41] Edited by: Galk on 12/11/2006 23:57:27 Edited by: Galk on 12/11/2006 23:51:52 Originally by: Gerome Doutrande Edited by: Gerome Doutrande on 12/11/2006 23:04:21 Originally by: Galk ... which turns many away from it (not everybody likes being immersed in faccist directorate) I'm taking the liberty of "increasing your immersion through a petition" for that. Enjoy. Dear Mr Doutrande. I based my comments on this posting: Linkage More , this reply on the 2nd page: Originally by: Labratory Rat "I used to be in an alliance that tried to dictate how players spend their game time. Weekends must been spent either mining for the alliance or as part of an alliance fleet. It was forbidden to spend weekends ratting or mining for yourself. You were allowed to do these during the week, unless there was some sort of alliance op on, which were most evenings when we were at war. If there was an alliance op going on and you couldn't take part (often it would take several hours commitment) the alliance leaders would forbid you from logging on. (A webpage was set up so fellow corp mates can report those who log on and don't take part in sanctioned activities.) While I understand the importance of members contributing to an alliance and not being leeches, this all meant that there was no benefit to being in the alliance, you couldn't mine or rat to make isk. There was no real PvP as alliance ops consisted of spending several hours sitting at gates while the rest of the alliance removes POSes or takes over stations, usually for someone elses alliances. The final straw was when the leadership set up a webpage demanding that members justify their place in the corp by getting 5 vouches from other members that you should be allowed to stay in the corp. While I was easily vouched for, I did see the ridiculousness of the situation. I'd spend months doing nothing but serve the alliance, giving up my weekends to be bored out of my mind mining or spend countless hours sitting at gates. And I saw no benefit for myself, then to have the leaders demand why members should deserve to be continued to be treated like this. So now I don't bother with alliances at all. This all happened in the second alliance I was a member off. The first one was co-run by a headcase that tried to forbid people from going back to empire. He threatened to kick a friend of mine when he saw him in Jita, claiming that he must be a spy for the allianceÆs enemies. You are ofcourse free to petition as you wish, but i feel my comment intirely justified when relating it to that of the above....inperticular the bold highlighted part.. where my opinion is bought in to a sad reality. I would not have made such a statement without evidence of it. ______
Arderich Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen	Posted - 2006.11.13 00:05:00 - [42] Originally by: Celestal I would think that only corps/alliances made up of a single factions pilots should be able to join that factions fighting force . Having corps/alliances with multi faction pilots joining in one factions fighting forces makes a mockery of the term `factional warfare` . I reserve my God given right to shoot any Minmatar or Gallente I see, no matter if he is a member of the 'Amarr/Khanid Fleet Expeditionary Force' or not. I would rather fight against Amarr before I will sit idle by and watch this inferior beings infiltrate amarrian forces.
Lorette Gallente Grandma's WIth Guns	Posted - 2006.11.13 00:26:00 - [43] I dont see the problem, if you want to fight and gain respect for your chosen race/military you should have to apply and be accepted into the military wing. Corps already fight for themselves in 0.0, this is basically empire wars. I have no problems with having to leave a guild and say join the Federation Navy, its excellent for people who want to roleplay aswell. Id have to say its turning out just as i thought it would...from day 5 ive always longed to join the FN
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.13 00:39:00 - [44] ::sigh:: Not really what I was hoping for. Maggot, next round is in Magiko lets go old school?
Shir'ia'ri Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2006.11.13 00:45:00 - [45] Originally by: Hakera 4. You will get option to give lp's to other players to allow groups to do missions and share the reward (not sure what was said on standings) And so the selling of LP begins....
Maggot Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.13 00:48:00 - [46] Originally by: Parallax Error ::sigh:: Not really what I was hoping for. Maggot, next round is in Magiko lets go old school? See you there ;) Will be sad that if to follow your roleplay principles you will be forced to provide security services for a bunch of mission runners.
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.13 01:05:00 - [47] Originally by: Maggot See you there ;) Will be sad that if to follow your roleplay principles you will be forced to provide security services for a bunch of mission runners. I have this horrible picture forming in my head...... And this newsflash just in! The first major battle of the new conflict was decided in Derelik today as two mighty fleets from the Amarr Empire and Minmatar Republic clashed in a struggle of titanic proportions. First reports are sketchy, but it was believed that at least 45 pilots fresh out of academy were involved and that the current death toll stands at 17 Impairors and 23 Reapers. Survivors were heard to comment "omgrofl ur n00b, civ guns pwn joo no ammo needed" and "no wai! nerf amarr Impairor iz 2 ubah." The head of the Theology Council was heard to say "Oh for the love of god, why didn't we send in the NPC's? At least they can't l33t speak in local."
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.13 10:00:00 - [48] Changing track slightly, whilst I'm pleased that we'll be getting a new Emperor through a big event, I'm more than slightly disappointed that we're going to have to wait up to thirteen months for anything to happen. And that's before we take into account CCP's track record of doing things on schedule. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Necroborg The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.11.13 10:18:00 - [49] Having to change corporations to fight in faction warfare is really dissapointing. I had thought at the very least corporations with good standing towards a faction could register their factional loyalty and therefore become part of factional warfare. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Marine HK4861 Caldari Seoltachd	Posted - 2006.11.13 10:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Hakera 1. Initiatally for players (not corps or alliances) For all those people complaining about the let down of factional warfare I've bolded and highlighted the appropriate text. I'm sure corps and alliances will be allowed to join in the factional warfare system, but until CCP irons out the (inevitable) bugs they've restricted it. After all, how can the 150-odd people in Singularity even hope to even resemble the load of a several thousand people on Tranquility using the Factional Warfare system? Or would you prefer CCP jump in blind and make a complete hash of it instead?
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.13 10:46:00 - [51] Originally by: Missy Mai'la On the test server you cant even scan npcs with the scanner, belt or complex, none show up on scanner. I think that combined with random respawning complexes is a bad thing, as you might run the complex to find no overseers spawned. This will result in farmers camping inside the complex 24/7. What do you mean "Result In" they are out there right now. F4T4L is Recruiting!
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.13 12:10:00 - [52] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 13/11/2006 12:10:54 Quote: 1. Initiatally for players (not corps or alliances) who can join an npc corp of one of the four empires providing they have appropiate standing such as I could join the Republic Fleet Expeditionary Force which will be just like starter corps, you dont have hangers or corp wallets for eg. 2. Each corp will be at war with one of the others so you can attack members of your enemy anywhere You gotta be kidding me. All RP corps who have built their RP around the backstory are supposed to just either drop their factional RP (which would force them to join the fight) or join a CCP corp (which is the only way to join it) - giving up all their corp hangars, production procedures, corp reputation, etc they have established? At least make it an alliance. This is stupid.
Radioactive Babe	Posted - 2006.11.13 12:59:00 - [53] LOL at all the 'omg i cant go to jita and kill everyone' types .. I think its cool, allows people who dont like low sec/0.0 style pvp to have fun and keeps n00bs safe .. CCP just need to make sure that they dont end up with enormous sucky fleet battles in empire (BECAUSE FLEET BATTLES SUCK), keep the fights small and spread out and everyone enjoys them did I mention that fleet battles suck
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.13 13:26:00 - [54] Of course a really really really REALLY easy fix for this would be to simply make a FW Alliance, aswell as a FW Corp (in said alliance). That'd allow whole corps to join the FW team, without disbanding. Of course that still doeesn't let alliances in, but thats a fix that desrerves more attention. -----------------------------------------------
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.13 13:29:00 - [55] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 13/11/2006 13:31:56 Originally by: Hakera Faction Warfare 1. Initiatally for players (not corps or alliances) who can join an npc corp of one of the four empires providing they have appropiate standing such as I could join the Republic Fleet Expeditionary Force which will be just like starter corps, you dont have hangers or corp wallets for eg. 2. Each corp will be at war with one of the others so you can attack members of your enemy anywhere Ok, this is more a bad joke than anything else. So you mean that RP corporations like Gradient (or PIE, or) who have actively roleplayed pro-Republic (or pro-Empire) stances for years with very limited support from CCP, would suddenly need to disband and join an NPC corp in order to actually support their faction? Whose great idea was this? How are we supposed to RP-justify standing by while NPC corporations go to war around us? This is ridiculous. There needs to be a way for player corps to align with one of the factions. And/or we need a way to wardec NPC corps involved with this. Talking about "war in EVE" while forcing 90% of the player base to stand idle and watch should never have even gotten to the idea stage. This is what we get for trying to actually support roleplay in the game? ...and don't talk to me about "this is only the first stage". If it goes live for even one day, it will turn all RP corps into jokes. Do you really want us all to disband and go to 0.0 and go "pew pew" with the other alliances, since apparently the game storyline isn't something that's worth making even slightly playable in the game itself. Apparently "factional warfare" means "kick RP corps in the teeth and laugh". I'm used to CCP not supporting roleplay much, but for them to actively harass it is crap. **** this.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.13 13:36:00 - [56] Originally by: Patch86 Of course a really really really REALLY easy fix for this would be to simply make a FW Alliance, aswell as a FW Corp (in said alliance). That'd allow whole corps to join the FW team, without disbanding. Yeah, that would solve the most glaring problems with this, agreed. If Amarr and Minmatar go to war and Gradient & PIE (and others) are forced to stand by and just post declarations on the forums, something is seriously wrong. It would be like having an "alliance pvp tournament", and then forbidding alliances to join. I'm sure that would go over really well...
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.13 13:39:00 - [57] Originally by: Radioactive Babe LOL at all the 'omg i cant go to jita and kill everyone' types .. I think its cool, allows people who dont like low sec/0.0 style pvp to have fun and keeps n00bs safe You're in for a rude awakening. The moment this goes live, hordes of pvp:ers will join the NPC corps and you will get people ganking noobs in Jita (and everywhere else). Guaranteed. There is no way to have a war situation like this and "keep n00bs safe". If they want to join in, they become targets for everyone. It's their choice.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 13:44:00 - [58] Oh look ! CCP scaled down Factional Warfare ? They will now implement just the dressed down version of the thing they've been using as the main excuse of not doing alot of stuff or for leaving alot of issues to fester away in the last year ? Gosh, how unexpected. Well, that takes care of one part of the predictable reality of the "Path to Kali". The other one was about the actual patch schedule versus the announced intended patch schedule. I'm wet from anticipation as to how that one turns out Still CCP doesn't learn. Less talk about what you plan to do please, if you are going to continue not actually doing any of it. (in all fairness the contract system looks like a winner tho. The rest looks between "ok" and "rather dissapointing" so far) Old blog
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.13 15:27:00 - [59] Actually, Rod touched on a good point there. If Kali 2 is all about Factional Warfare yet its being cut down to work, what is Kali 2 about now? There seems to be new DX9 Graphics involved, will the much vaunted (but ominously silent in the actual plans department) upgraded sovereignty, upgradeable outposts and the rest of the POS style improvements come out? I suppose my main question is, if Factional Warfare in Kali 2 is just going to be 4 NPC run corps with a declared CONCORD war. What else is there to look forward to for Kali 2 and 3 apart from eye candy?
Ghitza Backup Squad	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:52:00 - [60] Originally by: Blacklight Originally by: Rodj Blake Oh well, looks like I won't be able to take part in the one thing in Kali that I was looking forward to then. Agreed, it's the single most dissappointing bit of news to come out recently, I had really high hopes for factional warfare. Agreed too. The sky is falling :( I have had so big hopes for factional warfare and it seems like another junk stuff :(
Zing Ashuwanik	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:12:00 - [61] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 13/11/2006 13:31:56 How are we supposed to RP-justify standing by while NPC corporations go to war around us? This is ridiculous. There needs to be a way for player corps to align with one of the factions. And/or we need a way to wardec NPC corps involved with this. Talking about "war in EVE" while forcing 90% of the player base to stand idle and watch should never have even gotten to the idea stage. This is what we get for trying to actually support roleplay in the game? Well, you could RP it as recognizing that the empires have finally escalated the battle to the level that you have previously been operating at, and decide that the battle itself matters more to you than the reputation of your corp or alliance. You could RP the wait (until corps can join in) as the time it takes your preferred faction to recognize that it cannot win the battle only using its own military. They call for help, and your corp/alliance as a whole responds. You talk about being a role-player. As a role-player, you are playing a specific role, you have to decide how that person would react when the world around him changes to such a degree. Does he rush off to the recruiting office to join in the fight, or does he prefer to fight in his own way, rather than the 'accepted' military way. You're playing a person in a changing world. This is how the war is going to break out, your character should complain about that in the same way he complains about other things he has no control over. He has no control over what the factions decide to do. In his world, these are not NPCs being run by CCP, these are people with their own desires and motivations. React accordingly. (This may come across as a flame, it's not intended to be one.)
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:18:00 - [62] Thats really very poor indeed. Whats the point? I can't see any decent player/character/roleplayer in the game at the moment caring so much about this form of zoned pvp that they quit their corp to go fight it. What I do see is bored pvp alts with ganking ships joining up to blow away a few noob pilots a day and leave again when they are bored. I also had a shiver of distaste when the "faction warfare corp only / wow battlegrounds" systems were mentioned. Terrible and completely contrary to the thing that makes eve eve. Having zoned pvp that you have to be in certain novice corps to take part in is dreadfully regressive and the concept needs shooting in the head. On the whole very disappointing. If CCP need a more sensible concept for faction warfare I suggest they start taking hints from the player base. We have a lot of creative people here who know how this can work. Time to swallow a bit of pride and start listening. Star Fraction is recruiting
Chai N'Dorr Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:26:00 - [63] /me laughs So a few years back they kicked everyone out of the NPC corps beside the starter corps and now those in a nice Corp will just have to pack their bags and leave friends behind and get once more into a NPC corp? Way to go CCP! Glad I already made my decision about Kali and the impact it'll have for me as a player. I can understand that some things have to be taken in steps, but this is a kick in the face for the RP Community who over the years have stuck to the background and the various Factions. And what do they get for their tenacity? Nothing... you can leave what you created and fought for. As for the rest... only the four Empires will compete initially? Wow, I truely am speechless by this turn of events. _ Join the Movement!
Hardin Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:03:00 - [64] I for one will not be leaving the CVA to join a 'faction' corp... Why? Because I view the CVA's work of extending Amarrian law to 0.0 as equally valid roleplay - and I am sure Ushra'Khan will probably feel the same. Yes it sucks that the real Amarr loyalists/Minmatar terrorists who have been working for the Amarr Empire/Minmatar freedom over the past three years will not get any official 'ingame' rewards for this work but tbh we haven't had any to dates so what's changed... The CVA will still be at the forefront of expanding Amarr/roleplay into 0.0 as Ushra'Khan will do the same for the Minnies - just being involved in that is reward enough. Roleplay in EVE is about BUILDING YOUR OWN EMPIRES and that applies to everyone who operates in 0.0 and Empire - whether or not the talk like an Amarrian or like a 13 year old 1337 kiddie... If the new faction corps encourage people (and new players) to RP a bit more then that should be welcomed after all those players will eventually want to go beyond their Empire wars... After all today's faction RPers are tomorrow's Amarrian (CVA) zealots smiting the unholy and expanding the Amarr Empire into 0.0 one system at a time. While formal roleplay exists in EVE (and we do have a fantastic back canvas) this to date has been inspite of CCPs efforts - not because of them. I don't see that changing radically... Amarr Victor ------------------------------ Blog's back - for now
Shadar Ishaan Caldari Gang of Four	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:04:00 - [65] Good lord, people. This is the right approach - incremental building of a complex system. Lay the foundation, let people try it, give feedback and work out the bugs. Fix the bugs, build onto the system, and repeat. Or would you rather they throw the whole thing together, release it and then we find out a lot of it doesn't work right, or has unintended side-effects? The people on this forum typically whine about bugs and wanting things 'done right' and then when they start doing things right, they whine about not getting all the features they want. Amazing. ----------
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:17:00 - [66] Suffice to say, I don't think people are very happy about this. I think the biggest problem is that Kali 2 was much vaunted as being purely focused on the amazing new Factional Warfare system. It turns out all its going to be is 4 NPC corps with CONCORD Wars, and GMs at the helm. Hardly innovation of the year. 2 easy peasy suggestions: 1: Make it a FW Alliance, instead of a FW Corp (that is, it'll still act much like a corp in an NPC faction, but will have the structure of an Alliance). Allow player RP corps to apply to join, and thus be part of the combat. 2: Allow player corps to war-dec these new FW NPC corps, as they would any corp. The GMs at the controls of the FW corp can use these as material to start events (corp mail: "UK camp in Jita- all Imperial Pilots mobilize!"). And futhermore, the GMs would be able to use NPCs (navy spawns) to help balance any battles, if a war-dec begins to border on griefing. -----------------------------------------------
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:39:00 - [67] Originally by: Hardin Yes it sucks that the real Amarr loyalists/Minmatar terrorists who have been working for the Amarr Empire/Minmatar freedom over the past three years will not get any official 'ingame' rewards for this work but tbh we haven't had any to dates so what's changed... I personally dont see it as that at all. The true and greater effects on the war when it comes will be from events which anyone can participate in as we have done previously. I see the FW conception we talked about at FF as being a stepping stone to rather than a replacement for the roleplayed conflict. Only this time and in the near future there wont be some shabby veil of pretend peace. As i understand medals and recognitions will get a more official listing on character sheets so that should be the extra bit but ranks ofc can only belong to the true full time navy players as militia cant maintain official titles. IMO the problem has always been the fact that players live above the universe rather than in it unless you choose to dive in. I would like to see concord go myself, replaced by faction navies, and greater effect of standings on your options ingame akin to more real consequences to your actions. As the galaxy decends into war, the sec status of systems should drop which would entail a rescaling of the current empire space to reflect the 'war zones'. TBH for me, though i was there to hear it explained, for existing entities like CVA, there are tools much better than faction warfare in which is really just a pvp-lite replacement for the conflicts you have engineered and nutured in the past. Moreso in the form of a full time dynamic content team rather than relying on the volunteers so events of all scales along with I beleive they said much better tools so they can put in static stuff like triggered complexes and crieliere type events. If you want medals/recognitions, I see no reason why CCP cant add a tab in the character sheet, maybe even something on your forum avatar to show those accomplishments. In short, faction warfare is already in, and you have all the tools already, with some simple additions like extra info for our characters but for me at least, its the prospect and hope that faction warfare will come from events. When it comes to sovereignty issues, yes that is something left to figure out just how open the possibilities can be in terms of need for pos laying, station (mini outpost) taking and stuff like throwing marines etc aboard. I do think its sensible to start simple with FW than too complex, because to me, the issue of eligibility to join and penalty for leaving, essentially the numbers game become very complex when you start adding the ability for any corp or alliance to join or leave at will in a RvR opt-in system. It leads to too many what if's and abuse possibilities at least in my mind but neither should standings alone be used, as that means mission whoring, I would personally want a extra level of standing above 10 or a rescale of standings system where CCP can flag you elgible because of your past affiliations rather than a simple standings equation, and leaving the system less open to abuse. But to sum up, I dont see FW as a replacement to PvP RP war we have now, I see it as an addition between the PvE world and the PvP one at least intially where many of the features can be shared to players and by extension corps quite easily such as various recognition features. I see the greater addition being a static and dynamic content team who are actually paid to run the storyline and who will never be retasked off to fix/add other game features like in the past where storyline/dyanmic content took last place to game features. Hell Im sure White Wolf have a huge storyline development team who can be called upon to help flesh all that stuff like storyline missions, crieliere type events out as another possibility.
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Necroborg The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:44:00 - [68] Edited by: Aodha Khan on 13/11/2006 18:45:29 Originally by: Shadar Ishaan This is the right approach - incremental building of a complex system. Lay the foundation, let people try it, give feedback and work out the bugs. Fix the bugs, build onto the system, and repeat. No, this is the wrong approach. Allowing corporations with a certain standing towards the faction to take part in this would cut down the numbers drastically and enforce some roleplay at the same time. CCP can make that standing as high or low as they wish to manage those numbers. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:52:00 - [69] This looks and sounds so awful I shall use as much thought as CCP clearly have in my infinitely more considered response .. MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:58:00 - [70] Edited by: Rafein on 13/11/2006 19:03:55 I dunno, it;s kinda a touchy subject, the more I think about it. Personally, i would like to see factional warfare as more of a stepping stone into PvP, and 0.0 PvP. If it is more used by alliances already in 0.0 to farm for kills/rewards, it loses something. 0.0 Alliances can already fly around, killing everyone they find. they are gaining nothing, but ruining what could be a "gateway' to attract more people to Pvp. Having Alliances join right from the get go would drive away a lot of carebears who would potentially try the system out. Knowing that them joining in could make them enemies of established 0.0 corps/alliances, like BoB or D2, or ASCN, or Red is asking a lot of a player that lives in Empire, and is just looking for a bit of fun, and to learn to PvP. Also, what incentive do those 0.0 alliances have, other than to farm kills/rewards? They have their own homes in 0.0, their own Empires to run, their own enemies to fight. This should be about the people that live in Empire, that live in a faction's space, to fight for that faction. When people start farming for rewards, taking them to 0.0 and using them to fight for their real home, i think is when we will see the problem with allowing 0.0 corps/alliances in the system. Edit: As for Rp corps, yeah, I know, like i said, touchy subject. I would prefer to see them allowed to get involved, CVA, UK, are the best known examples, and have been doing the best of what they can, with what limited resources CCP has given them for RPing factional warfare. But, personally, I would prefer to see it more as a stepping stone on getting players into PvP over all else. Though I would love to see them involved, i think it's best for the carebears to grow, not the already PvP hardened more targets.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:11:00 - [71] Originally by: Zing Ashuwanik Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 13/11/2006 13:31:56 How are we supposed to RP-justify standing by while NPC corporations go to war around us? This is ridiculous. There needs to be a way for player corps to align with one of the factions. And/or we need a way to wardec NPC corps involved with this. Talking about "war in EVE" while forcing 90% of the player base to stand idle and watch should never have even gotten to the idea stage. This is what we get for trying to actually support roleplay in the game? Well, you could RP it as recognizing that the empires have finally escalated the battle to the level that you have previously been operating at, and decide that the battle itself matters more to you than the reputation of your corp or alliance. You could RP the wait (until corps can join in) as the time it takes your preferred faction to recognize that it cannot win the battle only using its own military. They call for help, and your corp/alliance as a whole responds. You talk about being a role-player. As a role-player, you are playing a specific role, you have to decide how that person would react when the world around him changes to such a degree. Does he rush off to the recruiting office to join in the fight, or does he prefer to fight in his own way, rather than the 'accepted' military way. You're playing a person in a changing world. This is how the war is going to break out, your character should complain about that in the same way he complains about other things he has no control over. He has no control over what the factions decide to do. In his world, these are not NPCs being run by CCP, these are people with their own desires and motivations. React accordingly. (This may come across as a flame, it's not intended to be one.) PIE Inc is the third oldest surviving player corporation Eve. It has been fighting for the Empire since day 1. In that time, Minmatar terrorists, Blood Raider supporters, anarchists, flip-floppers, and assorted pirates have attacked us. Many of those enemies boasted before hand that PIE would be dead within a week. But we're still here. It would be truly ironic if PIE were to die not because of the Empire's enemies, but because of the Empire itself. And I for one will not be supporting that. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Witch Doctor Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.13 20:13:00 - [72] Very disappointing but understandable on some level. I think this basically means business as usual for CVA and U'K, but this is a complete headshot for Gradient and PIE/1PG. They have worked very hard to establish themselves as the empire-based RP player corps for their respective factions, and now they are pushed further to the sidelines almost to the point of irrelevancy. They need to lay out some kind of plan for those corps that have invested a lot of time and effort into cultivating their presence and history. Perhaps it is standings-based, perhaps it is invitation-only from the GM executors to join an alliance, but there has to be something there. I say establish an alliance and invite corps on a case-by-case basis with clear guidelines on how they should operate (RP rules, member limit, event commitments, etc.). If they play by the rules, they can become very prestigious, unique corps. Break the rules, and you're booted. Start very conservatively with the obvious ones like PIE and refine the model before inviting more participants.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.13 20:42:00 - [73] Originally by: Witch Doctor I say establish an alliance and invite corps on a case-by-case basis with clear guidelines on how they should operate (RP rules, member limit, event commitments, etc.). If they play by the rules, they can become very prestigious, unique corps. Break the rules, and you're booted. Start very conservatively with the obvious ones like PIE and refine the model before inviting more participants. QFT. Theres using your noggin. why does it have to have blanket rules? Why can't it just be on a case by case bussiness? -----------------------------------------------
Shadar Ishaan Caldari Gang of Four	Posted - 2006.11.13 20:51:00 - [74] Originally by: Aodha Khan Edited by: Aodha Khan on 13/11/2006 18:45:29 Originally by: Shadar Ishaan This is the right approach - incremental building of a complex system. Lay the foundation, let people try it, give feedback and work out the bugs. Fix the bugs, build onto the system, and repeat. No, this is the wrong approach. Allowing corporations with a certain standing towards the faction to take part in this would cut down the numbers drastically and enforce some roleplay at the same time. CCP can make that standing as high or low as they wish to manage those numbers. Try again. Developing a system incrementally is always superior to delivering a full system all at once. By putting in the features proposed already, which are, as I understand it, the following: awarding medals and loyalty points and having a store where they can be traded for modules / items they begin to build a set of features that can later be extended to encompass more arenas of play. It gives us a chance to use these features of the system and it gives them a chance to see how we use them. Incremental development of a system allows users to provide timely feedback to a system, allows developers to identify problematic areas in a system (bugs) as well as unintended use (exploits and unidentified side-effects) while keeping each change set small and manageable. This means we can tell them what we like and don't like, what's broken and propose our ideas on how it can be fixed as well as provide feedback on where we'd like to see the system expanded to. Just because the system doesn't have everything everyone wants right now doesn't mean it never will. I'd rather have a small subset of features that work, or can be more easily fixed and be able to give my feedback as the system is evolving than to see a monstrous system unveiled that has been designed by a relative handful of people in comparison to the feedback of the community, with lots of bugs and features that can be used in unintended capacities that can break gameplay. I'm not saying that this system has everything we could want and should never be extended. I'm saying that this is the right path to take in developing a system that you know is going to grow and change. ----------
Vas Arach'ta	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:16:00 - [75] Quote: This is the right approach - incremental building of a complex system. Lay the foundation, let people try it, give feedback and work out the bugs. Fix the bugs, build onto the system, and repeat. Reason amidst the madness. Starting a FW system in an MMO universe like EVE--in which the repercussions of changes are never 100% predictable--with every possible NPC faction would be tantamount to madness, carelessness, and ultimately, disaster. Start with four. Watch what happens. Then improve.
Rakeris Legio VIII	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:22:00 - [76] Edited by: Rakeris on 13/11/2006 21:24:46 I so want to join a pirate corp, so I can attack them all!!! >=) But anyway, it looks like it's going to kinda suck, if you have to join a NPC corp...and you only have the main 4 as an option. =( ---------- I gave up on sigs. As all the beatings are starting to hurt and leave nasty bruises.
Lord Artemis Filthy Wyrm	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:25:00 - [77] Originally by: Blacklight Originally by: Rodj Blake Oh well, looks like I won't be able to take part in the one thing in Kali that I was looking forward to then. Agreed, it's the single most dissappointing bit of news to come out recently, I had really high hopes for factional warfare. From Hakera:"Initiatally for players (not corps or alliances)" maybe not right away but shortly after the initial bugs and mechanics get panned out? _____________________________ ... this space for rent ...
Ituralde Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:45:00 - [78] Factional Warfare is utter crap. World of Evecraft for factional warfare much? So much for player-driven. Whoever came up with this idea is more of a dolt than Tuxford. Fear is the mind-killer.
Hulemand Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:53:00 - [79] Edited by: Hulemand on 13/11/2006 21:54:50 So why not just make Amarr & Caldari create the Alliance while Gallente & Minmatar goes together in a new faction called Horde? If CCP wish to make their game move this way they might aswell make it as easy for the WoW players as possible. A system where you have to join a NPC corp? No way! Let corps/alliances join the faction they wish to fight for, this way those who wish to be involded can be involded, and those we does not wish do can choose to stay out! NPC corps! FFS! EDIT: Come on CCP, you are from Iceland - you can do better than this!
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:55:00 - [80] Originally by: Lord Artemis Originally by: Blacklight Originally by: Rodj Blake Oh well, looks like I won't be able to take part in the one thing in Kali that I was looking forward to then. Agreed, it's the single most dissappointing bit of news to come out recently, I had really high hopes for factional warfare. From Hakera:"Initiatally for players (not corps or alliances)" maybe not right away but shortly after the initial bugs and mechanics get panned out? Yes, and we were told that mobile refineries needed just a little bit more work and wouldn't be in Castor, but would be along a month or so later. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Selim Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:00:00 - [81] This factional warfare is PATHETIC. - You cant join up with any of the non-main empires like khanid, ammatar, intaki, etc - You cant do what star fraction is doing and be 'terrorists' - You cant be against all the empires, you need to side with one - To particpate you need to side with one of the main empires which "some" people dont want to do - You cant side with the pirate factions - You need to leave your corp/alliance to do it - You cant sign your corp/alliance up - You need to *** missions - Systems that only participants can enter? THAT is ridiculous. Its a complete sandbox **fest and needs to be completely revamped for anyone to even consider participating. The whole thing just dumbs down roleplay and completely ignores all roleplay that isnt "standard". Recognize that there are people that don't want to participate in cliche amarr/minmatar/gallente/caldari roleplay, and I'll come back again. I'm extremely dissapointed in this version of "factional warfare". Way to go, CCP, you took a promising feature and made it worse than anyone could have ever imagined. Roleplay is now dumber do to your actions.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:20:00 - [82] Originally by: Hardin After all today's faction RPers are tomorrow's Amarrian (CVA) zealots smiting the unholy and expanding the Amarr Empire into 0.0 one system at a time. thats one of the points where i see a major problem: future recruitment for loyalist corps. why should a pilot want to join a player loyalist corp when that corp has less options to participate in the war against the factions enemy and is restricted to fighting other player corps which also dont work for their faction directly? if your player loyalist corp wont even be able to defend its empire, state, slum or hive of decadence at a time of war then what good would joining it do? what you do get with such a borked fw-system are situation like these: - the vile terrorists of the ushra'khan come to amarr in force and besiege the system for a few hours. player corp loyalists can go and try to fight them off. those who are supposedly fighting the war against amarrs enemies cant join in. at best they can watch the battle and try their hand at smack because the terrorists are protected by concord and amarrian sentries. - the minmatar fw corp scores a major victory against the amarrian one somewhere in derelik. PIE pilots sit in system and watch the show unable to help the navy forces because concord would pwn them. -> the system now falls to the minmatar republic but the minmatar fw-pilots cant force PIE out of it because PIE also enjoys concord protection. all in all i can certainly see why ccp wants to do it this way: its a lot easier to implement and doesnt require much in the way of creativity. regarding the people that are so worried about vets abusing the system to gank poor empire noobs: how exactly is this not possible under the new system? just have your ebil pirate corp members all join one side. gank a few noobs, collect the rewards and happily return to your old corp. those just in it for the ganks and grief-potential will not worry too much about leaving their old corp for this.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:35:00 - [83] Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 13/11/2006 22:38:30 "I hope they don't decide to exclude anyone in player Corps (99% of the playerbase) from participating in factional warfare." Wakka wakka wakka, surely you jest? I would guess not even 60% of the active playerbase is in player corps. Anyrate it can;t be anymore dissapointing, than the fact they are adding alot of the new content (8 regions) to 0.0 which means it will be dominated by player corps and essentially NPc corp types will never get anything out of it....... so it would seem fair to me :P
FalconHawk Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:47:00 - [84] bah that concept for faction warfare is stupid. You want players to disband/leave their corps/friends to fight for the empire? I have over 9.9 standing with amarr empire (yeah lousy missionrunner for a long time)and i won¦t be able to fight for the empire cause i¦m CEO myself, i can¦t and won¦t let my corp alone for that ...another hope gone for a good kali/revelation/whatever patch
Lord Artemis Filthy Wyrm	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:51:00 - [85] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Lord Artemis Originally by: Blacklight Originally by: Rodj Blake Oh well, looks like I won't be able to take part in the one thing in Kali that I was looking forward to then. Agreed, it's the single most dissappointing bit of news to come out recently, I had really high hopes for factional warfare. From Hakera:"Initiatally for players (not corps or alliances)" maybe not right away but shortly after the initial bugs and mechanics get panned out? Yes, and we were told that mobile refineries needed just a little bit more work and wouldn't be in Castor, but would be along a month or so later. You have a point, I have been thinking "fool me once shame on me, fool me twice..." a lot lately _____________________________ ... this space for rent ...
Hitomi Ayame Royal Knights of Khanid Order of the Khanid Crown	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:52:00 - [86] Originally by: Hakera 1. Initiatally for players (not corps or alliances) who can join an npc corp of one of the four empires providing they have appropiate standing such as I could join the Republic Fleet Expeditionary Force which will be just like starter corps, you dont have hangers or corp wallets for eg. Why doesn't CCP just come out and say "side factions suck, quit playing them already" ? I lead a roleplaying corporation in a roleplaying alliance that roleplays loyalists to the Khanid Kingdom. I was really, really looking forward to factional warfare as a way to take RP to the next level and finally get involved not just with other players, but with the setting too. Unfortunately, it seems like factional warfare will offer absolutely nothing to me. Honestly, if this is how factional warfare is going to be, I am going to start looking at other MMOs. - - - Hitomi Ayame, Lady Marshal, RKOK Executor, KHAN The Royal Knights of Khanid are now recruiting!
Lord Artemis Filthy Wyrm	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:55:00 - [87] Originally by: FalconHawk bah that concept for faction warfare is stupid. You want players to disband/leave their corps/friends to fight for the empire? I have over 9.9 standing with amarr empire (yeah lousy missionrunner for a long time)and i won¦t be able to fight for the empire cause i¦m CEO myself, i can¦t and won¦t let my corp alone for that ...another hope gone for a good kali/revelation/whatever patch That is true as well, live with your loyalties I say. If you got 9.9 or close to it, ya know? How about a cut off? > 8.0 standing your are with em < -5.0 your against em. In between your still considered out of it and gives time to change. (note:please don't bash my numbers "to be fair it should be more like..." I just threw numbers in to make a point) _____________________________ ... this space for rent ...
FalconHawk Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2006.11.13 23:46:00 - [88] factional warfareshould be the uber-blow they said, something like "totalHellDeath" /whatever .... this concept looks more like a small fart ...
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.11.14 00:00:00 - [89] Originally by: Ituralde Factional Warfare is utter crap. World of Evecraft for factional warfare much? So much for player-driven. Whoever came up with this idea is more of a dolt than Tuxford. These kinds of personal attacks are childish and foolish. Keep it up, and you won't have to worry about factional warfare as your account won't exist anymore. (also remember tux can get into the database and nerf your wallet) I don't see the problem with factional warfare. It wasn't made for the player corps and alliances to begin with. It was made for the empire dwellers to get in on the fun. And besides, there are some standings issues with allowing player corps directly into factional warfare. Like what happens when BOB and ASCN join opposite sides, and use the system for a free perpetual empire war? Start small, build up from there. The Deeper you stick it in your vien, the deeper the thoughts there is no more pain.
Vendrin Caldari APEX Unlimited	Posted - 2006.11.14 00:10:00 - [90] The more I think of it, the more I am disappointed by it. If need be take longer to develop it so corps as a whole can join and it involves all factions. _____________________________________ APEX Unlimited is recruiting. Join channel APEXCOM for information!
Sebastian Valance Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.14 00:16:00 - [91] I see this as both bad and good. Bad part: The RP corps of EVE have been participating in faction warfare for 4 years now, and when CCP finally gets to the point in it's design schedule where they can provide greater opportunities for the rest of the players in this area, they totally shutout the assistance the RP players with their combined expertise in FW up to this point. CCP wants to implement FW in stages to give time to work out the bugs, and that's good; but to totally ignore the considerable resource of the RP Corps in phase one is extremely narrowminded from a real life business standpoint. Hey Devs of CCP: you got alot of RPer's ingame that can help all of us get FW going better, so use them. Don't ask them to dismantle the organizations they have spent years building to do it however. The RP Corps and Alliances are responsible for a good chunk of the player driven content that has made EVE the game it is today. Good part: I HAVE WAITING FOR 2 YEARS TO GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO WORK DIRECTLY FOR AN EMPIRE AND NOW MY CHARACTER WILL BE ABLE TO DO JUST THAT! YEA CCP! THANK YOU! Don't me get wrong...Player run Corps and Alliances are great for most people, I just don't like being a member of one. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and did NOT enjoy it, sorry. It's great that so many players do enjoy it and I am glad for them. I am very much looking forward now to being able to fly my ship with the Emblem of the Federation on it's wing. ______________________________________________ This is my new MAIN; give me a few days and I will get a Corp going...on second thought, I think I will apply to the Federation as a Pilot.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.14 00:22:00 - [92] Originally by: Locke DieDrake I don't see the problem with factional warfare. It wasn't made for the player corps and alliances to begin with. It was made for the empire dwellers to get in on the fun. hmmm wonder why the player corps operating in empire wont be allowed in then? Originally by: Locke DieDrake And besides, there are some standings issues with allowing player corps directly into factional warfare. Like what happens when BOB and ASCN join opposite sides, and use the system for a free perpetual empire war? you mean like declaring a mutual empire war? whats preventing them form doing so now?
Witch Doctor Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.14 00:53:00 - [93] Not to belabor my point, but this is all solved if you invite player corps to join on a case-by-case basis. If Bob/ASCN/MC/Veto/Goon/whoever can't click a button to join, then there's no problem. Leave it in the hands of the GMs running the corps to decide which corps to invite to join. Give them clear rules on what it takes to stay invited. Any problems, just boot them out. Let corps who want to get involved earn it by earning the GM's trust, however they choose to have that established. As an example, I don't think anyone in their right mind could say that PIE has done anything but make a strong case that they take RP very seriously and are the model of what a factional corp should look like. Invite them in as a test case. Sure, they are getting special treatment, but when you spend 3 freaking years carrying the torch and running more events than ISD with no sign of change, I think you earn a berth. Use them to establish your guidelines and criteria for other corps to join. They will value the singular honor that the invitation is and work hard to make it work. Any trouble, just boot them and start over, same as anyone else you invite. It's a privilege, not a game right, and it must be earned and kept via very subjective standards. Problems solved, everyone happy (except those not invited).
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.14 01:22:00 - [94] Originally by: Ithildin There's going to be PvP, alright, but I doubt they'll get much team along with it. I can already see how to exploit the system, for the ones that will be successful are the players whom are already a team. A player corporation is split, and they join a faction. They use teamspeak, mutual investments still managed by the original corporation, and with team effort win not for the faction but for themselves. In the process they get to kill a lot of people without a clue, so it's pretty fun, too. It's sad to say, but the soloplayers are a step down on the organisational ladder, and for those well established above them it is easy to step down if challenges prove fun and exclusive on the lower levels. You are entirely correct. Such a system will be dominated by people who take an existing small group that already communicates effectively and simply moves it into the faction warfare together. Now your small gank group can trounce the unorganized singles who will abound under such a system with little risk. A big *** you to any existing corporation or alliance, whose members now have the options of either leaving to go mess with this (potential easy PVP on a regular basis), or creating an alt to do so. Dissapointing.
Selim Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.14 01:33:00 - [95] I want to ask a question. Why does CCP not care about non-static roleplay? Why does it not care about unconventional roleplay? Everyone who supports one of the "minor" empires, or is against them all, or supports one of the pirate factions, or who wants to genuinely affect the game, is being given the finger. This FW will not change anything except the status of a few solar systems which don't matter. All it does is move EVE RP into the undynamic world of Horde vs Alliance, which frankly it already is in. All you hear about these days is nonsense involving the Amarr and caldari fighting the "democracies". Its incredibly cliche and boring and doesn't make sense. It can be improved and expanded upon in so many ways. Stop catering to static roleplay and understand that there is more to it than just people supporting one of the four main empires against their "racial enemy".
turnschuh Eye of God	Posted - 2006.11.14 01:35:00 - [96] Edited by: turnschuh on 14/11/2006 01:35:03 sooo I can join the matar repuplic and gank amarr scum in empire? YARRR
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.14 02:07:00 - [97] I think sometimes there are people that play EVE that have thier head up their huge ego rear. Why do they think this post is about them. They are in some supposed righteous corp with some righteous vision for a game that will not ever exist. Ok I think this is exactly what I expected to occur in factional warfare. Where the event team working thru their corp to provide content for a historical reference for EVE. A moment for those that believe corp or self is less than faction. I herby believe we have come to a great time in EVE history. Where we all most concede that EVE is not some small content little 3000 player base game. Where there are 3 forces that believe they are the game. I enjoy EVE not for the politics that have evolved from ingame Alliances. I play for the interaction from people that enjoy the game for its complex graphics and mechanics. Its a game. Its not anymore than a game. Its fun and enduring and evolving. You can spend 23/7 in this world CCP has created. Then when the server is down you can sleep and eat. There are things that are changing EVE soo much that if you think each part separately is not important if you put them all together you have a masterpiece. EVE and factional warfare is the only progression there should be and to tell CCP that the players should control the content of factional warfare is like giving certain factions miner II bpo's be cause they blew up a NPC. Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead . Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.14 08:26:00 - [98] Originally by: turnschuh Edited by: turnschuh on 14/11/2006 01:35:03 sooo I can leave my own corp to join the matar repuplic and only gank those amarr scum who consent to it in empire? YARRR Statement corrected for accuracy. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Cailais Amarr THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE	Posted - 2006.11.14 08:46:00 - [99] FW Zones??? - yuk, sounds like WOW battlegrounds to me.... Simple solution, Individuals, Corps or Alliances can 'pledge alliegance' to a particualr Faction and are then 'war targets' to all in the opposing faction who've done the same. Pledeged pilots get access to special 'faction missions' with faction rewards. Easy eh? do I get a Navy Apoc as a reward?? C. www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
Barony Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.14 09:11:00 - [100] Originally by: Patch86 2: Allow player corps to war-dec these new FW NPC corps, as they would any corp. The GMs at the controls of the FW corp can use these as material to start events (corp mail: "UK camp in Jita- all Imperial Pilots mobilize!"). And futhermore, the GMs would be able to use NPCs (navy spawns) to help balance any battles, if a war-dec begins to border on griefing. I think this the best suggestion yet. Although strictly speaking nobody has said the new corps cant be war decd by corps...
Estelle Matsuko Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.14 09:12:00 - [101] The way I read the currently proposed method of Factional Warfare is this. It¦s being kept simple so that potential Player "exploits" can be weeded out before it all goes to hell in a handbasket. It¦s aimed more at new players rather than veteran PVP/RP corp/alliances. Instead of four factions, just think of them as four corporations each led by a GM. It doesn¦t hurt as much that way. Granted it¦s not what we were expecting, but it does give the new guy something to do other than mining or conventional mission running. Personally I won¦t be leaving my corp to take part, but I may create an alt to see what the fuss is all about for a week or two.
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.11.14 09:26:00 - [102] Originally by: Witch Doctor Not to belabor my point, but this is all solved if you invite player corps to join on a case-by-case basis. If Bob/ASCN/MC/Veto/Goon/whoever can't click a button to join, then there's no problem. Leave it in the hands of the GMs running the corps to decide which corps to invite to join. Give them clear rules on what it takes to stay invited. Any problems, just boot them out. Let corps who want to get involved earn it by earning the GM's trust, however they choose to have that established. As an example, I don't think anyone in their right mind could say that PIE has done anything but make a strong case that they take RP very seriously and are the model of what a factional corp should look like. Invite them in as a test case. Sure, they are getting special treatment, but when you spend 3 freaking years carrying the torch and running more events than ISD with no sign of change, I think you earn a berth. Use them to establish your guidelines and criteria for other corps to join. They will value the singular honor that the invitation is and work hard to make it work. Any trouble, just boot them and start over, same as anyone else you invite. It's a privilege, not a game right, and it must be earned and kept via very subjective standards. Problems solved, everyone happy (except those not invited). This is the most sensible approach I have seen so far, along with those people who have accepted that the system needs to be developed gradually and built up from a solid foundation. The new NPC corps/alliances or whatever represent the factions military, people joing them become a kind of Naval auxilliary and it is only sensible that corps wishing to do so should could apply but only those approved by the faction navy (GM) would be accepted. This allows the established RP corps in and allows GMs to maintain a degree of balance between the factions. BOB/ASCN and the other major 0.0 non-RP alliances would never be accepted as their loyalty will always be to the alliance rather than a faction. I can accept starting small - 4 factions to begin with is ok, others can be added when the system is proven. Kahnid, pirate factions etc can and should be included but lets get the system running and stable first.
Sidrat Flush Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.14 09:48:00 - [103] As a non PvP gameplayer I think the biggest risk is to the smaller corps out there that could lose out. NOW if small corps (less than ten) could vote to be allianced to a particular "side" or Faction, then fine and dandy, otherwise individuals will leave and the corp will die a slow and painful death. That said, having a 30 minute patrol route that COULD coincide with enemy players routes could be so much fun and as pvp can't be tutorialised would be a great introduction, as long as all losses could be...absorbed by the corp. e.g you use their ships, weapons and equipment in a payload you like the look of, and "off you go soldier". Good times are ahead. As for the bigger alliances, they'll get their turn in the future, in the meantime do what you've always been doing and have fun while the new player base becomes adequate at pvp'ing. Life is about memories the more the better. Looking for CCP to improve availability of their GTC's, for non card carriers!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.14 10:19:00 - [104] Sounds to me that FW is more intended to be some kind of entry level to 0.0 politics. You pick a side and you fight for the npc faction and watches how your efforts influence the map. And you get medals and stuff. Its more like a tutorial to the 0.0 part of the game. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jake Devlin	Posted - 2006.11.14 10:29:00 - [105] feel free to shout this down, I have a feeling it's a really horrible idea, but what if apon joining the navy npc corp you get treated in the same way as the npc navy ships are i.e concord wont help you if attacked but the navy will. this way any rp corp can attack you if they wont to. perhaps have this only apply at "battle grounds" (which anyone can go to) to avoid griefing.
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.14 10:56:00 - [106] Edited by: Rafein on 14/11/2006 10:59:23 Originally by: Jim McGregor Sounds to me that FW is more intended to be some kind of entry level to 0.0 politics. You pick a side and you fight for the npc faction and watches how your efforts influence the map. And you get medals and stuff. Its more like a tutorial to the 0.0 part of the game. Agreed, it does seem more to get new players involved into pvp, as a stepping stone for 0.0. Eve is about a player's choices. It's about how you build your character. It's about picking the right ship, and right ship setup, for the right situation. If everyone could do everyhting, all the time, the game would get boring. With factional warfare, it's about where your loyalties lie. Is it with the Empire factions, or to yourself, or to 0.0 Alliances. It's choice, where do you want to spend your time, and how do you want to spend it? Wanna mine peacfully, stay in Empire, and don;t get involved. Live in Empire and wanna try it, go for it. Don't spend most of your time in Empire, it's not for you, just like 0.0 Cosmos are not for players who live in Empire. I have said before, and will say again, if it turns into a system where 0.0 alliances farm for items to be used to defend 0.0 space, the Enire system is a FAILURE. But still, I would love to see some consideration given to the RP corps, the players who have done the best job with the limited resources for PvP the devs have given them. These are the people for which the system is for, not others. If corps are allowed, there should be kinda extreme consequences for those not into RP. Such as if you join as a corp, your corp must hav at least a 5.0 standing to the Faction, and all actions of the corp cause personal standings to be decreased as well. Guild by association. You also lose the abiity to use all agent, RnD included, of the other three factions, so if your corp joins Minmatar and BPO's get relased, you only havethe ability to obtain BPO's given out by minmatar agents, even if you have a Gallente RnD agent. Same with invention. But long run, I would love to see it evolve, but in a way to keep it RP, and keep having players make choices about where their loyalties lie. So for now, I'll watch with interest.
Zimroel	Posted - 2006.11.14 11:32:00 - [107] Seems to me FW is just going to be something which is exploited by alts. Make an alt in faction A, another in faction B, then spend all day podding one another to earn medals and LPs that you trade in for faction ships to sell. Tell me it isn't so ...
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.14 11:36:00 - [108] Originally by: Zimroel Seems to me FW is just going to be something which is exploited by alts. Make an alt in faction A, another in faction B, then spend all day podding one another to earn medals and LPs that you trade in for faction ships to sell. Tell me it isn't so ... I'd love to tell you that, but what you describe is going to happen. And on top of that we'll have every griefer from Tash-Murkon to Rens signing up to pop a noob. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Ethidium Bromide ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.14 11:39:00 - [109] Edited by: Ethidium Bromide on 14/11/2006 11:40:58 Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Zimroel Seems to me FW is just going to be something which is exploited by alts. Make an alt in faction A, another in faction B, then spend all day podding one another to earn medals and LPs that you trade in for faction ships to sell. Tell me it isn't so ... I'd love to tell you that, but what you describe is going to happen. And on top of that we'll have every griefer from Tash-Murkon to Rens signing up to pop a noob. i'm no griefer YET EDIT: huge thanks for sharing Hakera, i wub you as i wub my fav slaves Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida. My sig is blue not pink although i can't argue with the slave part - Xorus wth whats this blue stuff all of a sudden? Did I miss a mail? -eris Bwahahahaha!11 Immy was here
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Necroborg The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.11.14 11:40:00 - [110] Spot on Rodj. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Azrael Maxim Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.14 11:42:00 - [111] CCP have plenty of time to correct certain aspects of factional warfare before its implemented, so the sky is not completely falling yet.
Ugleb Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.14 16:52:00 - [112] I posted these on our public forum this morning, pasting to here as it might help clarify a few things. Originally by: Ugleb I haven't read Hak's description yet but basically faction warfare is coming in phases and phase 1 is designed for new players to get into RP conflicts. In phase 1 each of the 4 empires will have a number of faction war corps (Republic Expeditionary Force etc) which will essentially be NPC corps that you can join. Each of these corps can fight the opposing corp members with CONCORD sanctioned war dec rules. You will have to leave your existing corp to join one of these and player corps/alliances won't be able to war dec/interact. Anyone with a +2.0 faction standing can join up. This is obviously not what the RP community wants but its only phase 1 and its intended to bring new players into the conflicts and be the framework to build up from. This is coming out in Kali 2. In Kali 3 there will be faction war phase 2 which will be where player corps can come in on the side they want. As Maggs says CCP are holding off on this to avoid mass noob massacres and massive imbalances. CCP want to see what happens with the restricted phase 1 before letting us take the gloves off. At this point they want faction war to encourage small group combat rather than a 50 BS blob with capital support sallying out of deep space to beat the crap out of empire. Hammerhead is the dev responsible for faction war and he is trying to find a system that provides balanced play that doesn't result in one side wtfpwning everyone else. Did you know that 50% of all eve characters are Caldari? The Caldari population could theoretically steam roller the galaxy if there is nothing there to balance out the numbers. Apparently Hammerhead is waking up in cold sweats at night thinking about it. Our Ushra blob underscored the point that the RP community is going to be unable to do anything and that its going to be a major concern, also made sure they got the point that we are liable to take a PR lashing for 'failing to react' to faction war developments which mechanics pretty much forbid us from influencing. The guys this is going to really hit are the empire rp corps, PIE, 1PG, Black Rabbits (met one of them this weekend, he was on the table) and KD, I have no idea how they are going to react. We have a bit of distance at the moment to cushion us. And another bit I added later: Originally by: Ugleb There are some sort of plans for players to climb up the command structure in these faction corps, so in some way players could end up directing the corp war efforts. The other thing we forgot to mention is the rewards. You will gain loyalty points for killing enemy ships and completing objectives (blow up another player and get points depending on what he was flying). The 'faction' loyalty points will pretty much act as an ISK substitute allowing you to buy things from the faction. Spend a few on ammo or save up and pick a faction ship from the list, up to you. They might be converting current agent LP to the same system so bye bye random offers you dont want, hello free choice. I think this whole thing sounds like a good start, but it sounds like we've got a long wait for the stuff we want to come along. On the point of killing players for points to spend and someone here mentioned alts killing each other to farm points, Hammerhead is aware of it and thinking about how to stop it. The points you earn for a kill are going to be worth the same as the ship you blew up, so if you want to kill yourself to get points you would have to spend an equivalent amount of ISK to provide yourself with a new ship to blow up. In the end you will have paid as much in ISK to earn the LP as the LP is worth in selling the faction gear. If the balancing is done correctly you will end up with no more than you started with, so killing yourself won't be very worthwhile.
Stuart Price Caldari Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.14 17:34:00 - [113] I WANT A PONY! NOW! FOR FREE! What a bunch of spoiled little kiddies. Sure, it would be nice for a perfect FW system to appear instantly without mass testing. A system that keeps everyone happy, with enough small scale battles for newer players and enough larger scale battles for the pvp hardcore. Yes, that would be lovely. It is also completely impossible and anyone not understanding that really needs to go and play Hello Kitty Magical Island of Simple Loveliness. The alternative is to slowly build the system from the ground. You might want it all right now but you can't have it. Adapt or die. So you have a choice. You can stay in your beloved corp and wait until the system expands to include you; you can leave to take part in FW or you can whine and throw your toys out the pram. Just because you and your buddies want to join the army doesn't mean the army is going to let you and your buddies stay together now does it? How badly do you want it? "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.14 18:16:00 - [114] Originally by: Ugleb Our Ushra blob underscored the point that the RP community is going to be unable to do anything and that its going to be a major concern, also made sure they got the point that we are liable to take a PR lashing for 'failing to react' to faction war developments which mechanics pretty much forbid us from influencing. The guys this is going to really hit are the empire rp corps, PIE, 1PG, Black Rabbits (met one of them this weekend, he was on the table) and KD, I have no idea how they are going to react. We have a bit of distance at the moment to cushion us. this is pretty much whats bothering me the most about it. ic-wise we should all disband our corps and join those npc corps right away. only problem being that we would have to throw away what has been achieved so far to join up with a bunch of farmers and griefers who are in it for the faction ships/easy ganks and not for the faction itself. on top of that the selection process (+2 faction standing) makes it ridiculously easy to join such a corp. if they plan to allow corps/alliances to join in later: what exactly will have changed by then? will [random 0.0 alliance with thousands of members] suddenly decide that they dont want to take part in this war and secure a few faction ships? will griefers suddenly decide that ganking some empire-noobs ist not fun at all? so the guys joining those npc corps get a few months (well if we're lucky..propably more like a year or two) of protection from the rest of the server and then it doesnt matter anymore for some reason? if ccp wants to bring in some system to check which corps/alliances they want to let in then they can do this right from the start. if they dont want to then this is just a meaningless excuse allowing them to "solve the problem later" a.k.a. ignoring the problem. if you cant get the system ready on time simply dont release it at all until you're ready. just waiting some months before you allow the rest of eve to participate wont solve any problems associated with the system.
Jane Vladmir Gallente Warmongers	Posted - 2006.11.14 18:37:00 - [115] Hi. I want my corporation to join the Guristas Pirate Faction to become enemies of all states within empire. When will this be possible if it ever will? I promise not to grief players with large gangs, I promise I'll fight solo the whole time I fight enemies of the Guristas.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.14 19:14:00 - [116] Originally by: Dust Angel Originally by: Silver Sarena I Again, very disappointed devs!! Start adding some content that doesn't involve PvP PLEASE!!!!! adding 8 ships + the various capitol ships added each patch. Thats a lot more content thats "non" pvp You mean none of those ship is useful for PvP?
Maggot Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.14 21:33:00 - [117] Originally by: Stuart Price I WANT A PONY! NOW! FOR FREE! What a bunch of spoiled little kiddies. Sure, it would be nice for a perfect FW system to appear instantly without mass testing. A system that keeps everyone happy, with enough small scale battles for newer players and enough larger scale battles for the pvp hardcore. Yes, that would be lovely. It is also completely impossible and anyone not understanding that really needs to go and play Hello Kitty Magical Island of Simple Loveliness. The alternative is to slowly build the system from the ground. You might want it all right now but you can't have it. Adapt or die. So you have a choice. You can stay in your beloved corp and wait until the system expands to include you; you can leave to take part in FW or you can whine and throw your toys out the pram. Just because you and your buddies want to join the army doesn't mean the army is going to let you and your buddies stay together now does it? How badly do you want it? Or we can discuss the issues and maybe a good idea or two might come out of it. CCP if fully aware this is a bloody nightmare and can't please everyone. My impression from the roundtable was that they are still in the design phase so now is the time so comment on how people might think it could work and involve the existing RP community. Must say I dont have any alternatives that do not head in the direction of instancing. I can understand why Hammerhead might be having a few sleepless nights. I would put my money on the current proposal not making it to a release candidate. But then again I lost all my money in the Russian Crash of 1998. Maggot.
Ugleb Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:44:00 - [118] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Ugleb Our Ushra blob underscored the point that the RP community is going to be unable to do anything and that its going to be a major concern, also made sure they got the point that we are liable to take a PR lashing for 'failing to react' to faction war developments which mechanics pretty much forbid us from influencing. The guys this is going to really hit are the empire rp corps, PIE, 1PG, Black Rabbits (met one of them this weekend, he was on the table) and KD, I have no idea how they are going to react. We have a bit of distance at the moment to cushion us. this is pretty much whats bothering me the most about it. ic-wise we should all disband our corps and join those npc corps right away. only problem being that we would have to throw away what has been achieved so far to join up with a bunch of farmers and griefers who are in it for the faction ships/easy ganks and not for the faction itself. on top of that the selection process (+2 faction standing) makes it ridiculously easy to join such a corp. It was our #1 #2 and #3 concern too, and we made a point of pointing it out. It's just not right to think that RP groups might be forced to choose between disbanding (CVA and Ushra both have outposts, POS networks and capital ship fleets invested in which would be useless or incapable of holding without an alliance/corp) and losing our unique identities and histories or opting out of faction war entirely. Phase 1 (and I do agree there needs to be phases as its just such a huge thing to try and balance correctly straight away) needs to allow us some forms of interaction in low sec and maybe even 0.0. Perhaps exploration and escalating paths could give us a limited way in even if we can't actually earn faction points - at least we can exert some influence and some events could be structured to let us help our friendly faction corps. I could live with some basic peripheral involvement while phase 2 is under development as at least then everyone gets a chance to legitimately keep on the scene and start integrating with the factions.
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.11.15 00:23:00 - [119] Back in march I posted a long thread detailing my thoughts and own vision of what factional warfare might be. My hope was as big as others, but it was march and six months ago factional warfare was but a whisper upon the winds of time and change in Eve and so few cared. But fast forward and it is a hot topic as so little as really been said about it before because honestly i dont think CCP even knew themselves what it would be like until it was built and then it might fall down if they built it too big too fast. You change the world overnight and you get SWG. You start small and grow your seed, lay foundations and build it up. A sensible route they have taken imo from the complex design they had originally which included I am told more than I envisaged. What every person had to who cared in the past was everything but a way to truely affect the world around them. We could slaughter the weak faction navies and for our sins lose standing and gain worthless loot, attack their convoys and find some glass or equally useful trade good. Kill every mission spawned slaver, attack other players because of who they are or because they did something to affect the empire we flew the flag for, but we could never lay seige to a station or system and its sovreignty, raid with marines, plunder & pilage the colonies of our enemies to the lament of their women :) And that is what most wanted, an ability however limited at first to affect the world around them on a higher level than before. Whenever i think of factional warfare I cant help but think of WWII online. I see the ability to affect territory but also to have similar things, resource centres which can be destroyed, captured or rebuilt, front lines which can change. A navy which provides for you and as you gain rank, you gain access to higher levels of equipment. In eve because we are not dealing with one sandbox like WoW PotBS or WWII online but many different sandboxes inside the same pit (and some within other sandboxes) we cant be as open and world defining as those. The battleground has to be limited and the players equally limited by other factors and as an end product, their effect has to be equally scaled until the game is ready to expand it. Here is the feature set I would hope for: Stage One - Kali 2 - Border conflicts setting the scene, laying the foundations of the standings system and its effects 1. Events utilizing FW corps and player corps contacted by or 'flagged by CCP' as part of the 'we know who our friends are' policy of the empires as tensions rise towards open war which utilises a series of flashpoint events aka creiliere types around the borders. 2. FW corps has conceived, players only, restricted by standing and possibly age. Restrictions on entry and exit. 3. Static & Dynamic FW agents (triggered or other) utilizing more static crieliere type missions 4. Addition of or rescaling of the 'border zones' to form the first battlegrounds 5. The FW corp features with the shop, ranks (affected by mission completion count which provides you with an effective 'level' aka rank (which affects only your corp colour text and availible shop items (higher ranks restricted to only certain amounts of players) and medals 6. The rank has a maintainance requirement, so you must continously earn points, take a leave of absense and your point degradation starts to fall until your level lowers, also the higher levels require trigger missions be completed to gain access to the next rank 7. Additon of recognitions tab on character sheet and possible forum avatar recognitions so any player can be awarded medals or commendations even if not in FW corp by CCP
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.11.15 00:24:00 - [120] Edited by: Hakera on 15/11/2006 00:26:28 8. Remove concord to 0.8+ (their power weakens as diplomacy fails) replace with faction military, in border zones have empire factions at various spawn points as well as pirates but change the spawn code so they dont spawn at the same location unless you put interactive AI in :) 9. Have faction convoys respond to standings or other 'flagging' very ruthlessly, its martial law after all! 10. Have gates/station service access respond to standings (use the outpost code but enter your own fixed values for each type of faction station 11. Have faction controlled auto sentry guns which respond to standing and faction aggression flags 12. Change the taxes and cost of faction supplied equipment according to standing 13. Rescale the standings system to introduce new levels of standing only open to those engaged in the faction war/allowed in to limit access to military supplies and areas 14. Add military 'elite spawn' convoys for each faction in and around the battleground 15. Change the loot table and market supply/demand for items needed for war, maybe have the smaller scale events run around the war supplies concept. 16. When a static objective is destroyed, leave a wreck beacon which lasts for say 2-4weeks depending on the scale & severerity of the battle to give it the battleground flavour. 17. In addition to sec status, add faction standings status aggression rules, if you are at a significantly high standings level, then you may attack your 'enemy faction players' of opposite standing anywhere upto a 0.8 sec status system but to do so would give you a standings hit and incur the wrath of the faction navy if your in your enemies turf. 18. Increase the 'intel flash traffic messages' being brought in by the gang changes to allow more detailed information such as I have spotted x players/spawn at x location containing x assets/ship types.
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.11.15 00:26:00 - [121] Edited by: Hakera on 15/11/2006 00:29:33 Stage Three - Kali 4 - The vultures circle enter the other factions 17. By this stage determine the faction relationships and who can attack who (letters of the mark between say Matari and sansha to attack the amarr which gives the corp or player its high standing and ability to join in), allow in a very limited fashion the ability for smaller factions to muscle in with certain objectives and less scope as they have less resources, such as very limited scope for sovereignty claiming but can affect the sovereignty claims of others by increasining discontent by destroying the claiming or contesting sides assets, assist with CCP events 18. Mature/tweak the sovereignty issues that are bound to rise.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.15 10:46:00 - [122] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 15/11/2006 10:59:18 To JF and others ***ing about minority RP not getting the love: don't worry, you would not be any better off basing your RP on the major factions. We are not getting any love either. At least you can still go on with the "RP despite CCP" line we are all familiar with; we have to go with their NPC corps or drop our faction RP... Originally by:** Zing Ashuwanik You talk about being a role-player. As a role-player, you are playing a specific role, you have to decide how that person would react when the world around him changes to such a degree. Does he rush off to the recruiting office to join in the fight, or does he prefer to fight in his own way, rather than the 'accepted' military way. The problem is established loyalist characters would rush to help, but their players are not at all happy to leave their established loyalist RP corporations for that. If this gets implemented as explained in the first post, CCP is requiring that for the most realistic and appealing option for loyalists we have to drop out of our 3-years-old established loyalist RP for an NPC corp in which (no one can deny this) the level of every-day RP will probably be more or less a joke. That simply sucks. I know how my character will react. I have been playing Else for years, I do not have to go through all that "mmmm, how would my char react" stuff you preach about. The problem is, reacting as she would will put me to a frigging NPC corp instead of Gradient, and the quality of my RP will go through the floor, not to mention I lose corp hangars and corp wallet and our established procedures for working with those to support the fighting. And that sucks. I tend to think, now, that it does not suck quite as much as suddenly dropping her (and Gradient's) loyalist line just because CCP can't implement stuff properly, but I am not completely decided yet. I realize there are options around this, and I have an idea for how to organize Gradient to get over this, but I really don't feel loyalist corporations should be required to do that kind of twisting and bending to accomodate for factional warfare. Originally by: "Witch Doctor" I say establish an alliance and invite corps on a case-by-case basis with clear guidelines on how they should operate (RP rules, member limit, event commitments, etc.). If they play by the rules, they can become very prestigious, unique corps. Break the rules, and you're booted. Start very conservatively with the obvious ones like PIE and refine the model before inviting more participants. Yeah, this sounds good, though I am not completely ok with the "event commitment" thing. People have lives.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:45:00 - [123] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 15/11/2006 12:47:58 Originally by: Hakera a lot some pretty good ideas and it certainly sounds a lot better than 4 npc corps with concord wars. one additional thing i would like to see are race based restrictions. not in an absolute kind of way that would make it impossible for outsiders to join an fw corp but more with limitations to what they can do. - higher base standing requirements to get into the fw-corp...for the amarian ones for example: amarr need +4, caldari +5, gallente and minmatar +6 amarr faction standing to join. also add some better ways to gain faction standing (more below). - place a restriction on how far outsiders can climb up the ladder. like a well known khanid hardliner said: we dont need a brutor general in the sarum navy! at least for some factions (amarr and khanid) this should be implemented to relfect their xenophobic tendencies. faction standings: corp<->faction standings as they work right now may be a bit of a problem as its very hard to keep those at a high level if you plan to recruit anyone other than hardcore missionrunners. if the player corps are allowed to participate to some degree and help out on events/missions this should have a heavy impact on their faction standings to even allow them to reach high levels with their faction and low levels with the opposing side. same goes for pilot<-> faction standings. allow pilots/corps (in fw corps and in player corps) to attack some enemy structures/npcs and help the fw-corp in the war zones to get some sizeable shifts in their factions standing. also add some restrictions to make it very hard to go from one faction to that factions enemy. basicly it should be a lot easier to lose standing than to gain it again. especially when you start gaining it from negative values like -5 and below. i am very much in favour of making standings more important overall. then we can finally get rid of such nice things as people basing themself out of their enemies stations for example.
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics	Posted - 2006.11.15 13:05:00 - [124] After reading everything, my conclusions, what people think/want, the initial lay from ccp. The main gripe (from ccp's initial lay) seems to be from establised rp corps and from sovreign 0.0 alliance corps and members. That gripe seems to be (at face value) is that of having to ditch their estabished corps/alliances to partake within.... and that of initial influence they as an established group can have over it. My take, i belive this is where we start to fall down with our opinions. What is clear to me is that the factional warfare system (from that initial lay) is clearly a new direction for ccp to inovated/exploit a part of there product that would mainly appeal to a new and wider audience of subscribers. There's no and little denieing that the new content within the npc structuring of factional war is designed for exactly that purpose. Promotions, rewards, medals... without mentioning any other games, i think that it's a very clear picture of what ccp are aiming at. There's clearly those that play eve to shy away from those types of elements in morpgs though, but as far as i can see.. ccp arn't shying away from feeding your ethos either. That harks back to my original point about those expressing disapointment.. You guys have chosen you're paths, you want to be completely player driven in goals and conquest, i fail to understand why you want empire factional npc structure to fall in around you. On the one hand empire npc organisations have absolutely nothing to do with bands of corps that have formed sovreign alliances in outer regions. (from a roleplayer perspective) On the second: as stated before, there's many conquests to be had in player lead sovreign space, why you constantly say you play the game for over the rest out of there.... what interest could you posibly have in the static npc systems. In short... The new factional system in my eyes is a completely different concept, it isn't in it's initial state designed to be an extention for anything that currently exists. That might seem a bit of a kick in the teeth to established roleplaying corps, but realy... you guys should know.. you guys are completely player driven in every respect anyway.. why would you want to lose that. Might seem hard, but read my words about what the new system is what i belive is primarly designed for... there was no way in the world that ccp was going to throw this one over to you to control... No way, though ofc they havn't shut and bolted the door on it completely. I suspect the main factors on what comes next, will be decided more on new active player accounts and such though. ______
Ma'Kahn	Posted - 2006.11.15 13:28:00 - [125] From my current outside perspective I think it is a very good start. It sure doesn't meet the expectations of a lot of you guys but from a gamedesign and balancing perspective this is the only right way to do it. There is also nothing stopping all you RP-corps from declaring war on corps aligned to other factions, and you can still assist those in the "faction corps" by simply helping them out where you can. I think a lot of you are missing the many shades of grey. There's more than just black and white.
Ugleb Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.15 13:43:00 - [126] Originally by: Galk After reading everything, my conclusions, what people think/want, the initial lay from ccp. The main gripe (from ccp's initial lay) seems to be from establised rp corps and from sovreign 0.0 alliance corps and members. That gripe seems to be (at face value) is that of having to ditch their estabished corps/alliances to partake within.... and that of initial influence they as an established group can have over it. Correct, having to shut down our long established player groups to have any interaction is out of the question, doing so throws away identities develoed over years - a massive step backwards. Quote: You guys have chosen you're paths, you want to be completely player driven in goals and conquest, i fail to understand why you want empire factional npc structure to fall in around you. On the one hand empire npc organisations have absolutely nothing to do with bands of corps that have formed sovreign alliances in outer regions. (from a roleplayer perspective) You miss the point. The npc organisations are integral to the eve story and vital to roleplay. The story is told through them and it is vital that we interact with them. What we are not looking to do is control them ourselves. Through the npc's ccp can introduce new elements and things on a greater scale than the players can usually do themselves, most Amarr rp'ers obey the emperor and noble houses, they are not trying to put one of their own on the throne. Faction warfare is where all the storylines have been heading for years, the outbreak of empire war is central to many player groups agenda's - how can we not be a part of it? Quote: On the second: as stated before, there's many conquests to be had in player lead sovreign space, why you constantly say you play the game for over the rest out of there.... what interest could you posibly have in the static npc systems. Alot of the groups posting here are empire based, how can they live in empire and not lift a finger to help in the war? Others of us such as the Ushra'khan are only in 0.0 adjacent to empire to build bases to strike at the empires, Ushra is about freeing matari slaves from the Amarr, those slaves are in the Empire not in deep space. Quote: That might seem a bit of a kick in the teeth to established roleplaying corps, but realy... you guys should know.. you guys are completely player driven in every respect anyway.. why would you want to lose that. Exactly the point, people are upset because the system would force them to give up what they have worked hard to build, or turn their backs on what they have supposedly been about and working towards for years. So much more was promised from faction war than what is on the table and thats why people are angry and disapointed. The real problem is how can RP groups continue for an absolute minimum of 6 months after phase 1 goes live if game mechanics prevent them from backing up anything they claim? There needs to be something that lets RP'ers at least keep some dignity while they are forced to sit it out on the sidelines waiting for kali 3.
Ugleb Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.15 13:49:00 - [127] Originally by: Ma'Kahn From my current outside perspective I think it is a very good start. It sure doesn't meet the expectations of a lot of you guys but from a gamedesign and balancing perspective this is the only right way to do it. There is also nothing stopping all you RP-corps from declaring war on corps aligned to other factions, and you can still assist those in the "faction corps" by simply helping them out where you can. I think a lot of you are missing the many shades of grey. There's more than just black and white. I agree that faction must and probably should come in phases to avoid killing the game if it goes wrong, but the current plan holds plenty of ammunition to kill the RP scene on alot of people. We already fight each other, the problem is that under phase 1 we're forced to stand to one side as the real war rages when under all RP angles what we should be doing is getting stuck in. We want to assist the faction corps, the problem is how. Sending them a few isk from time to time is hardly the way to go, and concord is going to severely limit what else we can do.
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics	Posted - 2006.11.15 14:34:00 - [128] Aside from attempting to justify what i was saying, belive me i might have sounded harsh, i have nothing against roleplayers. Question though: What makes you belive ccp would have conceived factional warfare to primarly be evolved around rp and sovreign alliance corps. Iv'e told you my take, i think business perspective. Rp corps are in a vast minority, organised 0.0 alliance corps and the majority of there mebership claiming sovreign area mainly consist of semi/addicted people fully committed renewing their subscription 30 days down the line. That game doesn't go stale in their eyes... as i said in my last post... why there here.. fully player conceived. Where it allways has failed and come up short is the casual game, by using this factional warfare to piggyback all that grind/reward stuff.. your in for a better retention than 7 months on most casual gamers subs. ______
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.15 14:41:00 - [129] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 15/11/2006 14:50:39 Of course we could stay completely player driven. Only - if you have going on and on for years about how you support (say) the Emperor in everything and if someone attacks the sovereignty of the Empire you will hunt them down and kill them - and then a situation comes where actually to do that you have to join the fight for the Empire is to join an NPC corp. What do you do if you want to stay in your player-driven corp? Either you will have to "mmkay, nevermind the Emperor, I'll bugger of to zero sec" or "mmkay, nevermind the battle, I'll just give newbies some isk so they can do my fighting for me" or "screw the Emperor's plans, I'm just gonna dec the evil Gradients on my own". None of these are very good options...:/ I would be ok with this if it had been made clear from the start this is how it's going to be, but we have been lead to believe that corporations can declare loyalty to a faction from the start, not from 6 months later if ever. We could have built up to it differently. At least Gradient still has the option to do the peaceful industrialist (yes, seriously! ;)) support back-out and save face - loyalist paramilitary units like PIE don't have even that. I feel for you guys, you must be even more ****ed off than me. Yeah, CCP won't go bankrupt even if all Empire-RPers quit. Yes, EVE is in the end about PvP and alliance politics. Yes, I agree our kind of RP is in the minority. So? It might make business sense (and I am not sure if it does), but it's still annoying as hell.
Tanis Bastar Caldari Interstitial Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.15 15:20:00 - [130] Edited by: Tanis Bastar on 15/11/2006 15:22:40 I have one comment and one proposal re Faction Warfare: 1) At FanFest, one of the devs mentioned that one of the problems with introducing full-blown FW right away is balance--the dev said that 50% of the players are Caldari, so if not done right they would crush everyone else. How to introduce balance? 2) I'm not really into RP, but I can see how it would suck to have to leave your RP corp after spending years to build it up in order to participate in FW. What about this: using the new contract system to create "mercenary" contracts of various durations that would allow players to stay in their existing corp but participate in FW--anyone with such a mercenary contract would be flagged in the overview, etc. to the other side as if they were in one of the warring FW corps. Maybe have a minimum contract of a week, with basic rewards, up to some longer period, providing progressively bigger awards. If you break your merc contract you would take a big standings hit. This kind of arrangement would be sort of similar to the "Lafayette Squadron (?)" from WWI or the "Flying Tigers" from WWII: allows sympathetic fighters to sign up to fight even if their country/main corp has not declared war. [EDIT] You could maybe address balance here by limiting the number of merc contracts offered depending on how the overall war is going (your side is losing = more merc contracts). You could also do interesting things by having players bid to participate as mercs--maybe via a reverse auction whereby players willing to work for the LOWEST rewards are offered the merc contracts first.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.15 15:29:00 - [131] Limiting FW to individuals won't get rid of the problem caused by there being lots of Caldari players. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.15 15:36:00 - [132] Frankly, if the balance was done my way, I'd just let the strongest faction outrun the others, organize the losing sides to guerrilla type of action, and write the rest of the backstory from there. Unlikely CCP will go for that though. All those silly market concerns and stuff. ;)
Tanis Bastar Caldari Interstitial Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.15 15:42:00 - [133] Originally by: Rodj Blake Limiting FW to individuals won't get rid of the problem caused by there being lots of Caldari players. It would if you only let a limited number of Caldari players participate in FW (based on merc contracts, etc.), based on knowledge of how many players of the opposing side are participating. Kind of artificial, but it seems there has to be some kind of mechanism.
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:45:00 - [134] Originally by: Galk What makes you belive ccp would have conceived factional warfare to primarly be evolved around rp corps. Originally by: MMORG.COM MMORPG.com:Factional warfare, a long awaited feature in Eve online, is to begin with the launch of Kali. What can players look forward to in this new aspect of Player versus Player (PvP)? What benefits or rewards will earning ranks earn players? What benefits besides bragging rights will participation provide to players? Nathan Richardsson: Factional Warfare is something of a holy grail for many of us. We have a rich backstory which we can tap into, but weÆve always felt that weÆre not fully delivering that experience into EVE. Factional Warfare enables players to fight for their factions against other players, which should in turn increase awareness of the factions and their rich story. However, itÆs a can of worms on an epic scale. We have to take into consideration a wealth of factors. We canÆt make Factional Warfare into something that sucks the life out of the thriving player alliances and their eternal battles for dominion in the outer regions. We have to cater to the already established roleplay community that has been the driving force in the player storyline between the factions. And last but not least there are the practical aspects; balancing the forces, preventing ôblobbingö and having real objectives and victory conditions in all the engagements that really set their mark on the universe. The rewards for fighting in your empireÆs armed forces is glory, reputation and respect. You can gain rank, medals and easier access to military issue equipment but there is very little ômaterialö gain from fighting. my own take is that RP corps should be in addition to rather than have the system made purely for them. My problem is that militia no matter what player corp they be, cannot be very immersive if they still retain their corp/alliance links. You on the one hand need a system that provides an entry into the faction war whilst controlling and balancing too much interest and scaling playability. Hence my take in my very long idea above that militia corps be added at some point and whilst they maintain no rank to the 'regulars', they can engage the faction spawn at will and the other static targets alongside the events. I also propose further additions to my long post above - quanitifable bounty on all spawns belonging to enemy factions, this goes for anyone, pirate npc's should no longer be the only isk givers, your home faction should reward you for the tags of your enemy. That way you introduce static content that affects the sovereignty strengths of your faction and the enemies in each battleground system. Whilst miiltia corps wont have access to the store or militia objectives except via alts, they will have the power to affect the 'battleground' and also when standings are sufficiemtly different to each other, attck openly their enemies according to standings. There is a lot in my eyes militia could do, but even to me, they cannot have it all! (sorry lads) FW corp players barring the alts of regular players (where i think hammers suggested 2.0 standing should be adjusted somehow to make it more tougher and have restrictions on activity levels) wear the uniform and surrender their lives in the name of their empire. They get no isk from what they do but the ability for the empire to give them what they need. In short i think the key feature differences should be if summing up my own proposal FW corps FW agents FW corp store ranks medals Access to static objective encounters, resource bases and static 'npc faction' spawn tools ability to affect sovreignty strengths in battleground used by CCP events in faction war storylines Militia corps civilian medals access to static obecjtive encounters access to trigger faction agents ability to affect sovereignty strengths used by ccp events in faction war storyline agents.
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:46:00 - [135] but the key to it all is a much more complex and comprehensive affect and use of standings system to really affect the game and consequences of your actions. From that stems the ability to become more liked or more hated by your actions and also access more faction based acitivity.
Khaldur Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:45:00 - [136] I do see the benefit of introducing new concepts gradually. FW could turn this game upside down if not implemented carefully. But introducing FW for solo pilots only and maybe adding corps later (and we all know that this could turn out to be a lot later) does have negative side effects. I don't see anyone of 1PG leaving the corp for this. But how should we find new recruits during that time? "You want to fight for Amarr? You want to fight the Minmatar Navy? You want to have an impact on history? Well then don't join us. We can't fight the Minmatar Navy. We can't participate on events that impact the storyline. We can only shoot some random Ushra Khan coming into Empire". This is just taking away our whole reason of existence as an Empire based loyalist corporation RP wise. The Minmatar Navy raids Amarr systems and we cannot even shoot back? Ridiculous. We were looking forward to FW. Now I see it as a slap in the face.
Ugleb Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:02:00 - [137] Quote: I also propose further additions to my long post above - quanitifable bounty on all spawns belonging to enemy factions, this goes for anyone, pirate npc's should no longer be the only isk givers, your home faction should reward you for the tags of your enemy. That way you introduce static content that affects the sovereignty strengths of your faction and the enemies in each battleground system. Whilst miiltia corps wont have access to the store or militia objectives except via alts, they will have the power to affect the 'battleground' and also when standings are sufficiemtly different to each other, attck openly their enemies according to standings. There is a lot in my eyes militia could do, but even to me, they cannot have it all! (sorry lads) FW corp players barring the alts of regular players (where i think hammers suggested 2.0 standing should be adjusted somehow to make it more tougher and have restrictions on activity levels) wear the uniform and surrender their lives in the name of their empire. They get no isk from what they do but the ability for the empire to give them what they need. Pretty much, what the RP community wants is a way to stay involved with the full story, we can go elsewhere to earn our ISK. It would also filter out some of the people who want to in some way exploit the system as they won't be able to reap much in the way of rewards. I would be happy if for phase 1 the system just restricted militia corps to fighting in low sec. It could possibly be rp'ed as the empires being wary of large numbers of capsuleers not under their authority waging war in high sec areas. Capsuleer alliances are potentially serious threats to empire security if allowed to cut loose unrestricted and in the past empires have refused to acknowledge capsuleer soverignty, I don't see deep seated wariness or even distrust vanishing over night. Once the war escalates thing could well change and our gloves be taken off. If there are objectives in low sec that player groups can interact with then high sec can be kept between the FW Corps. If there are going to be systems that only FW corp pilots can enter than highways can be setup between the high sec systems allowing Newbies a way to reach the opposition without having to blockade run low-sec all the time. Those could be RP'ed as militarised zones under direct FW corp command - independents stay out of the way, your 'assistance' is not required here. Ofc there is then the question of is this creating a high sec travel corridor between empire that gives carebears an easy ride. I'd say no, the routes would be pretty linear and crammed with hostile ships from opposing FW corps. It's just somewhere newbies are more likely to encounter other rookie pilots to fight.
Greenbolt	Posted - 2006.11.19 04:29:00 - [138] Such high hopes. I had hopes for new PVE content as well as PVP content that would let me as a member of NMTZ join the fight to help my people and get recognition for it..and I joined NMTZ because it held groups like Gradient within it. I read the news put out by CCP..my hopes grew. So much promise ... Time went by and that anticipation grew more... Then the forums were mentioned with new information on factional warfare. What a letdown..so basically if I want to go where my character has been headed lately..I have to ditch my alliance which is organized and fun...to join a mindless herd of individuals (all in one corp) without the normal benefits of being in a corp? Why are so many RP'ers annoyed/angry? Because CCP made promises...and the direction it lists...thsoe promises arent being held. If this was to be content for new players/newly generated players...and a wow style battlegrounds pvp system... then ccp shoulda said so from the beginning instead of promising the world...and delivering 15m3 of fertilizer. I wish I had not read the forum information on this. its ruined my dreams for my character. (And im learning alot baout ccp's definition of sometime soon tm.)....
Zimroel	Posted - 2006.11.19 07:17:00 - [139] Originally by: Ugleb On the point of killing players for points to spend and someone here mentioned alts killing each other to farm points, Hammerhead is aware of it and thinking about how to stop it. The points you earn for a kill are going to be worth the same as the ship you blew up, so if you want to kill yourself to get points you would have to spend an equivalent amount of ISK to provide yourself with a new ship to blow up. In the end you will have paid as much in ISK to earn the LP as the LP is worth in selling the faction gear. If the balancing is done correctly you will end up with no more than you started with, so killing yourself won't be very worthwhile. It was me who raised that issue. I'm not convinced by your reply - either you mistate the intention or the hole hasn't been fixed. You MUST take insurance into account- what you wrote sounded like I could make a 65-70% profit per ship just by buying and insuring ships then killing them off. If you're seriously saying that if you kill a BS you get enough points to go and buy a BS then not only is it wide open to abuse but it gives massive rewards for all the worst kinds of "PvP". i.e. it becomes a form of piracy with no sec standing loss and guaranteed good payment so long s you always attack those much weaker than yourself (or outnumber them). At the moment faction warfare stage 1 sounds like nothing more than create 4 new NPC corps with permanent free war decs vs one another - then setup a rewards system to encourage people to kill off the defenceless. Any reward system needs firstly not to be open to abuse (which means no way can the payment for killing exceed about 25% of the ship value - and that's an absolute max, much less would be better). And secondly the rewards need to reflect the fairness of the fight - so bravery is what's rewarded, not lameness/ganking. So if the maximum payout for a kill was 25% of the value of the target ship then the only way you'd get that would be by killing it with ship(s) on your side with a max valu no higher than the target's. Kill it with a 4:1 cost advantage and you'd only get 6.25% of its value. The other approach would be to raise the max to around 50% but have no insurance payouts fo ships killed in war (have YOU ever seen an insurance policy that covered acts of war?). None of which comments even begin to address the issue of what is the fighting supposed to be achieving. Without the ability to affect anything of substance in the game, phase 1 will just be a gank-fest with maybe ways smart plaers can abuse the mechanics to gain financial advantage.
Vendrin Caldari APEX Unlimited Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.11.19 08:30:00 - [140] Edited by: Vendrin on 19/11/2006 08:33:21 I believe the easiest way to handle these issues would be to instead make the npc corps the executors of an alliance that player corps can join, with the executor corp being available for solo pilots being allowed to join. While certainly not the best solution, and not extremely fair to alliances like AM/NMTZ/Cyrene/KD, i feel it is better then forcing corps to disband. _____________________________________ APEX Unlimited is recruiting. Join channel APEXCOM for information!
Nukeitall Nukeitall Coterie	Posted - 2006.11.19 09:45:00 - [141] POLITELY: I find it deeply disturbing that people will need to drop their corps to fight for the navy(ies). I think this has not been sufficiently thought out and must be adjusted prior to implementation. The level of aggravation for this particular 'quirk' is staggering and promises to place a flying kick to the ********* of the entire warfare concept. NOT SO POLITELY: CCP are a bunch of boneheads if they go ahead with it like this. It will be a disaster on the scale of NGE in Star Wars. It will be that bad. --------- >>Disclaimer: Anything Nukeitall says is not to be taken seriously. Mostly.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.19 10:01:00 - [142] I don't mind having ti aimed at new players at first, but the whole implementation as it currently looks is simply a cop-out AGAIN. Let's assume some things shall we ? Firstly, let's assume other issues took up CCP's time when they would have been working on the facitonal warfare system. I'm not going to name the issues, and maybe there weren't any to begin with and they simply fell about 99% short of the expectations they raised. Secondly, let's assume that on or around October 30th CCP suddenly got reminded that "Hey, wtf, we forgot all about factional warfare ! OH ** !". Now, working form those assumptions, what would you expect them to come up with in order to save their hides ? What would you see as being the most bare-bones, downgraded, 'excuse for a feature', last-minute patchup job they could possibly announce within two weeks ? 4 npc corps with permanent concord wars. Add a few medals and some titles and hint at development of the role of agents and some low-sec station pingpong, possibly (certainly) at a later date...** Think about it ! Is there ANY possible way for CCP to present a bigger excuse for a feature (that was supposedly already in development nearly a year ago seieng how they used it as an excuse for not doing other stuff back then already), then this way ? Is there really ANY way in which this big headline feature could be anything less then this and still be called a feature and make it into Revelations ? Now, this all may be fiction and totally besides the truth, but it most certainly is what this farce loooks like to me. And it's the umpteenth time they do it. Raise expectations, divert attention from current lackings by pointing out future features and then delivering them half-assed. Gosh, how surprising. I love propaganda, as alot of you probably noticed, but I don't like CCP using it on us one bit tbh. Old blog
Tachy	Posted - 2006.11.19 10:32:00 - [143] R&E: We heard and read all of that for 2.5 years. Not much action followed the words. ccp representative promises brain switches to some elevator music There's still hope. FW: Starting small is good. How about playing the EVE ccg in pairs instead of spending time on that useless stuff? And if it is planned as you write, it is absolutely useless. >One< corp at war with >one< other corp, yeah, that truely sounds like faction warfare. If you want to make it become true, then do it right and not 5% of the way you promised since the FanFest '04. How about having ccp staff run alliances having nice wars? Oh, the player run alliances would intervene and just remove you from space unless someone implemented a way to prevent unwanted wars - and a way to allow placing infrastructure in 'empire' areas. There's still hope. P&M: Wow, something to look forward for. More promises, and a huge letdown. 1m¦ level 4 courier missions ftw! Agents/NPC mission staff contacting you in space has been partially implemented in early EVE iirc. There's been a lot of talk about such things. There's still hope. The devs are great at partying and very nice to talk to. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Ugleb Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.21 11:59:00 - [144] Originally by: Zimroel Originally by: Ugleb On the point of killing players for points to spend and someone here mentioned alts killing each other to farm points, Hammerhead is aware of it and thinking about how to stop it. The points you earn for a kill are going to be worth the same as the ship you blew up, so if you want to kill yourself to get points you would have to spend an equivalent amount of ISK to provide yourself with a new ship to blow up. In the end you will have paid as much in ISK to earn the LP as the LP is worth in selling the faction gear. If the balancing is done correctly you will end up with no more than you started with, so killing yourself won't be very worthwhile. It was me who raised that issue. I'm not convinced by your reply - either you mistate the intention or the hole hasn't been fixed. You MUST take insurance into account- what you wrote sounded like I could make a 65-70% profit per ship just by buying and insuring ships then killing them off. If you're seriously saying that if you kill a BS you get enough points to go and buy a BS then not only is it wide open to abuse but it gives massive rewards for all the worst kinds of "PvP". i.e. it becomes a form of piracy with no sec standing loss and guaranteed good payment so long s you always attack those much weaker than yourself (or outnumber them). At the moment faction warfare stage 1 sounds like nothing more than create 4 new NPC corps with permanent free war decs vs one another - then setup a rewards system to encourage people to kill off the defenceless. Any reward system needs firstly not to be open to abuse (which means no way can the payment for killing exceed about 25% of the ship value - and that's an absolute max, much less would be better). And secondly the rewards need to reflect the fairness of the fight - so bravery is what's rewarded, not lameness/ganking. So if the maximum payout for a kill was 25% of the value of the target ship then the only way you'd get that would be by killing it with ship(s) on your side with a max valu no higher than the target's. Kill it with a 4:1 cost advantage and you'd only get 6.25% of its value. The other approach would be to raise the max to around 50% but have no insurance payouts fo ships killed in war (have YOU ever seen an insurance policy that covered acts of war?). None of which comments even begin to address the issue of what is the fighting supposed to be achieving. Without the ability to affect anything of substance in the game, phase 1 will just be a gank-fest with maybe ways smart plaers can abuse the mechanics to gain financial advantage. I think I may have missed out a few cruicial words. I will now rephrase: The points you earn for a kill are going to be worth the same, or most likely less than, the value of the ship you blew up. Much better. On the insurance point, I dunno. I have no idea how insurance would work under the faction system, do you spend points on insurance and get pay outs in points? Who knows. Even if you do, it might still be balancable to result in a net loss for blowing up your own alt. The key thrust of Hammerheads point though was that the system would be balanced so that buying a ship to kill won't be profitable, killing enemies and not losing your own ship will be. So if you want to farm faction points to get hold of cool gear you are going to have to inject just as much isk as if you had just bought the thing on escrow. Naturally it will stand or fall on implementation, but at least its being considered.

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