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Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:35:00 - [1] CCP sorry guys, but you pretty much killed this ship. Okay dropping a launcher sure, maybe justified the new tier2 battlecruisers did seem a tad overgunned but come on, dropping the rate of fire bonus for kinetic missile damage? The Drake wasn't a big time DPS ship to begin with now it's just pathetic. Pretty sure when people start whipping up graphs of the tier2 battlecruisers the Drake is going to look rather sad.. might as well use a Caracal. What a joke. Drake should have kept its ROF bonus.. the -1 turret for hurricane and -1 launcher for drake, okay that is probably reasonable. The Harbinger looks awful good now, in not amazingly good compared to the rest now. Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Spiderweb Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:44:00 - [2] did they actually messed up drake ? rofl lets nerf to dust all caldari because the forum whiners said so... nice ----------------------------------------------- "Light, in the Darkest of Hours..."
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:46:00 - [3] Originally by: Spiderweb did they actually messed up drake ? rofl lets nerf to dust all caldari because the forum whiners said so... nice Pretty much. Hey at least we have the Raven, thank god because it's the only freaking good Caldari ship pretty much for general pvp combat usage. Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
F Apparition Minmatar Life Extermination New Eden Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:46:00 - [4] Well, this sucks.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:47:00 - [5] Drake was overpowered, and did need rebalancing. I hope they havn't taken it too far, though. -----------------------------------------------
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:49:00 - [6] They did, it blows now. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Spiderweb Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Captain Raynor Originally by: Spiderweb did they actually messed up drake ? rofl lets nerf to dust all caldari because the forum whiners said so... nice Pretty much. Hey at least we have the Raven, thank god because it's the only freaking good Caldari ship pretty much for general pvp combat usage. excuse me sir, but they also really nerfed the Raven as well. T2 Torps are a joke now ----------------------------------------------- "Light, in the Darkest of Hours..."
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:50:00 - [8] Originally by: Patch86 Drake was overpowered, and did need rebalancing. I hope they havn't taken it too far, though. but they did take it too far, -1 launcher ok, lose the rof? why, rof is what made the drake good, kinetic missile damage is the dumbest bonus ever, i really hate having a bonus to 1 damage type and kinetic is defidently not a very good damage type. switch missile types? yay a bonusless ship, yay caldari. no reason to fly a drake, period, use a cruise launcher raven, more dps, more durable, moves along at about the same speed, more drones, same versatility, and 100% insurable once again nothing other than the raven is worth flying if you are caldari, b o r i n g Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Dixon on 16/11/2006 16:54:28 Originally by: Patch86 Drake was overpowered, and did need rebalancing. I hope they havn't taken it too far, though. Agreed but this is a huge nerf, kinetic damage bonuses are really crappy. I'd settle for a RoF bonus but remove the resist bonus for a flight time bonus so the ship can actually use HAMs. Quote: excuse me sir, but they also really nerfed the Raven as well. T2 Torps are a joke now Haha! I knew this day would come so I jumped on the Amarr bandwagon - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Supernova 5000 Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:53:00 - [10] im pure caldari and i can say it needed the nerf it was pretty boring not being brought down to armor fighting anything around my size. I want some exciting in life not... "ohh look its another BC that won't absolutly do jack to me let me press F1-F8 and go to the kitchen n get something to drink." [Sand will Cover this place, -Sand will cover YOU.]
Jaxtet Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:53:00 - [11] Nobody wanted to give the Myrm 5 heavy drones so I guess they are nerfing the other BCs down to the level of the Myrmidon... LOL!!! - It's great to have a life outside of a video game, ain't it?
Spiderweb Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Supernova 5000 im pure caldari and i can say it needed the nerf it was pretty boring not being brought down to armor fighting anything around my size. I want some exciting in life not... "ohh look its another BC that won't absolutly do jack to me let me press F1-F8 and go to the kitchen n get something to drink." you either not a caldari or you are a braindamaged patient in coma and your granma is typing this. they didnt nerf its tanking. they wtfpwnnerfed its offensive capability. read. R e a d. ----------------------------------------------- "Light, in the Darkest of Hours..."
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:06:00 - [13] So instead of actually fixing the ferox to be a gunship, they nerfed the drake so it doesn't completely outclass the ferox. ok, got it.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:12:00 - [14] i guess the HAC owners union got its way.
Ricky Baby The Kennels	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Dixon Agreed but this is a huge nerf, kinetic damage bonuses are really crappy. I'd settle for a RoF bonus but remove the resist bonus for a flight time bonus so the ship can actually use HAMs. you mean the short range cruiser class gun with an optimal of 88km? -------------------------------------
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Ricky Baby you mean the short range cruiser class gun with an optimal of 88km? Thats javelin HAMs, not the T1 missiles themselves. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Teego	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:41:00 - [17] Wow, I suppose people were having too much fun with the Drake over on the test server. I understand the loss of a launcher point since it was a bit omgwtfridiculous, but that RoF loss just dropped this ship to the bottom of my list. That really sucks, I was looking forward to trying something new, but it seems as though CCP wants caldari to stick with kinetic damage. Bah, I wanted to see how fast my heavy launchers II would be with another 25% reduction stacked on my skills. Alas. Oh well. 61 days, 14 minutes and I'll be able to fit a T2 425 Rohk. Now I can ***** about being gouged on 425 prices... :) (Change the bonus back Tux, please.)
Super frenchy Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:43:00 - [18] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Ricky Baby you mean the short range cruiser class gun with an optimal of 88km? Thats javelin HAMs, not the T1 missiles themselves. How can I have a 88km range with blaster or ac ( or even pulse ) ?
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:44:00 - [19] Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 17:46:56 Yes, kin bonus is really beyond lame... its not a BC, not a fracking caracal. Originally by: Super frenchy How can I have a 88km range with blaster or ac ( or even pulse ) ? Jav HAMs are broken, no1 will dispute that. Theyre as broken as Jav Torps are on TQ. Apart from that, the weapon is fine. And its not like there isn't other broken T2 ammo on TQ, hence all the T2 ammo changes. Either way that's no reason to make the Drake useless, that would be like keeping void/null the way they are and taking 1 turret off a the megathon to compensate. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Dixon I'd settle for a RoF bonus but remove the resist bonus for a flight time bonus so the ship can actually use HAMs. Wait, you want a range bonus on the missile equivalent of blasters? What part of that seems sensible? HAMs are meant to be close range weapons, so a range bonus wou;ld most deffinatly not tbe the direction to go. -----------------------------------------------
MOS DEF E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:50:00 - [21] Thanks god! No more3 Drakes slapping command ships around on Sisi eh?
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:51:00 - [22] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i guess the HAC owners union got its way. Word Thx CCP I really, really, really hope invention will work.
One Percent Caldari Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:54:00 - [23] The drake was ridiculously overpowered. Being Caldari spec'd I would have liked for it to retain the ROF bonus but it's only a T1 ship. Get off your lazy a**es and train for the Nighthawk. Everyone whines and wants a low-cost super-effective PvP ship... not happening for good reason.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:59:00 - [24] Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 18:01:18 Originally by: One Percent The drake was ridiculously overpowered. Being Caldari spec'd I would have liked for it to retain the ROF bonus but it's only a T1 ship. Get off your lazy a**es and train for the Nighthawk. Everyone whines and wants a low-cost super-effective PvP ship... not happening for good reason. They would also like a BC worth training for. The Drake isnt. Its as simple as that. Why would you spend 36m more than a caracal (10x the price) to gain 20% damage and a signature radius the size of a nanophoon? Basically what they've done is reduced the number of new ships worth flying to 2. The Harbinger and the Rokh. Every. Other. New. Ship. Sucks. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:59:00 - [25] Originally by: One Percent The drake was ridiculously overpowered. Being Caldari spec'd I would have liked for it to retain the ROF bonus but it's only a T1 ship. Get off your lazy a**es and train for the Nighthawk. Everyone whines and wants a low-cost super-effective PvP ship... not happening for good reason. I wouldn't mind if it had HAC 4 + Command 4 as pre req and kept the tech 1 tag :P It was overpowered, but it would fix the HAC/Command market, how much do you think the NH prices will increase in the next months? It jumped by 100m the day Tux announced a bonus change
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:01:00 - [26] Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 18:01:44 dbl post ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
One Percent Caldari Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:02:00 - [27] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 18:01:18 Originally by: One Percent The drake was ridiculously overpowered. Being Caldari spec'd I would have liked for it to retain the ROF bonus but it's only a T1 ship. Get off your lazy a**es and train for the Nighthawk. Everyone whines and wants a low-cost super-effective PvP ship... not happening for good reason. They would also like a BC worth training for. The Drake isnt. Its as simple as that. Why would you spend 36m more than a caracal (10x the price) to gain 20% damage and a signature radius the size of a nanophoon? Basically what they've done is reduced the number of new ships worth flying to 2. The Harbinger and the Rokh. Every. Other. New. Ship. Sucks. Because you can tank like a maniac?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:02:00 - [28] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: One Percent The drake was ridiculously overpowered. Being Caldari spec'd I would have liked for it to retain the ROF bonus but it's only a T1 ship. Get off your lazy a**es and train for the Nighthawk. Everyone whines and wants a low-cost super-effective PvP ship... not happening for good reason. They would also like a BC worth training for. The Drake isnt. Its as simple as that. Why would you spend 36m more than a caracal (10x the price) to gain 20% damage and a signature radius the size of a nanophoon? Same reason they'd pay 10x the ost of a Vexor for the Myrmidon, I guess. Drake is far from the only BC that has it's troubles. I was hoping Myrmidon would be boosted to match the Drake and Hurricane, not the other way round though.............. -----------------------------------------------
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:04:00 - [29] Originally by: One Percent The drake was ridiculously overpowered. Being Caldari spec'd I would have liked for it to retain the ROF bonus but it's only a T1 ship. Get off your lazy a**es and train for the Nighthawk. Everyone whines and wants a low-cost super-effective PvP ship... not happening for good reason. heh the ROF bonus was not overpowered in the slightest. i can see nuking a launcher slot but removing the ROF bonus was uncalled for.
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:06:00 - [30] drake went from slightly overpowered to utter crap the king is dead all hail the new king, the Harbinger Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:11:00 - [31] Man overnerfing must be fotm with CCP... Jav torps, Null, Drake, Hurricane... Whats next, Rokh? The only thing good about this is that the Zixxa-Troll is prolly in a permanent frothing fit now --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:14:00 - [32] Originally by: One Percent Because you can tank like a maniac? Yes, and we all know that supertanked ships with no speed mod, webber and scrambler are really, really useful, right? right? we're not talking of daft sisi duels or npcing m8, we're talking of actual combat. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:24:00 - [33] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Dixon I'd settle for a RoF bonus but remove the resist bonus for a flight time bonus so the ship can actually use HAMs. Wait, you want a range bonus on the missile equivalent of blasters? What part of that seems sensible? HAMs are meant to be close range weapons, so a range bonus wou;ld most deffinatly not tbe the direction to go. The part where caldari ships need medslots to tank. Without a range bonus the maximum range is 15km (with full missile range-skills, that's rare). Now if that ship would have a max range of 15 km it would struggle to kill anything not slower than itself and that is a lot. Missile boats are slow and need range - that's why they _all_ have range bonuses. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:28:00 - [34] Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Dixon I'd settle for a RoF bonus but remove the resist bonus for a flight time bonus so the ship can actually use HAMs. Wait, you want a range bonus on the missile equivalent of blasters? What part of that seems sensible? HAMs are meant to be close range weapons, so a range bonus wou;ld most deffinatly not tbe the direction to go. The part where caldari ships need medslots to tank. Without a range bonus the maximum range is 15km (with full missile range-skills, that's rare). Now if that ship would have a max range of 15 km it would struggle to kill anything not slower than itself and that is a lot. Missile boats are slow and need range - that's why they _all_ have range bonuses. Yah, but this isn't just another missile. This is the missile equivalent of ACs, Blasters and Pulses. Now, in a blaster ship (ignoring T2 ammo) max range is unlikely to be more than 15km, even with large guns. It is, in fact, uite a bit less. HAMS are designed for those ships that want to go fast ship / close range set ups, not just to be another (more powerful) missile. If you can't fit the Drake for speed (all you need is 1x mid slot for MWD / AB, and some spare lows for nanos / overdruves (heh)/ inertials, and Caldari ships have lows going spare without an armour tank) then fit a long range launcher instead. -----------------------------------------------
Faricar Caldari Knightmares Inc	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:31:00 - [35] CHANGE THE KEN DMG BONUS TO ROF BONUS TUX!
Darkrogue Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:32:00 - [36] I think they are doing the right thing Nerfing the Drake a bit. But from all of us players. STOP DOUBLE NERFING single nerf, such as remove luancher hardpoint. Then test, maybe nerf a bit more if needed. Okay thanks. Put back on ROF.
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Dixon I'd settle for a RoF bonus but remove the resist bonus for a flight time bonus so the ship can actually use HAMs. Wait, you want a range bonus on the missile equivalent of blasters? What part of that seems sensible? HAMs are meant to be close range weapons, so a range bonus wou;ld most deffinatly not tbe the direction to go. The part where caldari ships need medslots to tank. Without a range bonus the maximum range is 15km (with full missile range-skills, that's rare). Now if that ship would have a max range of 15 km it would struggle to kill anything not slower than itself and that is a lot. Missile boats are slow and need range - that's why they _all_ have range bonuses. Yah, but this isn't just another missile. This is the missile equivalent of ACs, Blasters and Pulses. Now, in a blaster ship (ignoring T2 ammo) max range is unlikely to be more than 15km, even with large guns. It is, in fact, uite a bit less. HAMS are designed for those ships that want to go fast ship / close range set ups, not just to be another (more powerful) missile. If you can't fit the Drake for speed (all you need is 1x mid slot for MWD / AB, and some spare lows for nanos / overdruves (heh)/ inertials, and Caldari ships have lows going spare without an armour tank) then fit a long range launcher instead. Blasterships are lighter and more agile than Caldari missile-bricks, in fact missile ships are usually the slowest/heaviest in their class. This means that all the other BC and cruisers will outrun it easily if they also equip AB/MWD.. that is a major weakness that I'd rather be without. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:38:00 - [38] If they put the rate of fire bonus back the Drake is still usable and probably a pretty decent ship. Raven has rate of fire, why can't the Drake? Why doesn't the Caracal for that matter. Kinetic missile damage bonus is bad stuff, bonus to 1 damage type is just lame, sorry. Missile DPS is basically pre-nerfed like projectiles and without some kind of rate of fire bonus missile ships just suck, look at the Nighthawk pre Kali boost.. why make the same mistake twice? If CCP keeps the Drake screwed like this they will just have to boost it later, it wasn't exactly an overpowered ship to begin with other than the extender cheese setup so okay -1 launcher thats fine, screw it with kinetic dmg bonus? Lame. Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Patch Esquire Di-Tron Light Industries	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:42:00 - [39] Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Dixon I'd settle for a RoF bonus but remove the resist bonus for a flight time bonus so the ship can actually use HAMs. Wait, you want a range bonus on the missile equivalent of blasters? What part of that seems sensible? HAMs are meant to be close range weapons, so a range bonus wou;ld most deffinatly not tbe the direction to go. The part where caldari ships need medslots to tank. Without a range bonus the maximum range is 15km (with full missile range-skills, that's rare). Now if that ship would have a max range of 15 km it would struggle to kill anything not slower than itself and that is a lot. Missile boats are slow and need range - that's why they _all_ have range bonuses. Yah, but this isn't just another missile. This is the missile equivalent of ACs, Blasters and Pulses. Now, in a blaster ship (ignoring T2 ammo) max range is unlikely to be more than 15km, even with large guns. It is, in fact, uite a bit less. HAMS are designed for those ships that want to go fast ship / close range set ups, not just to be another (more powerful) missile. If you can't fit the Drake for speed (all you need is 1x mid slot for MWD / AB, and some spare lows for nanos / overdruves (heh)/ inertials, and Caldari ships have lows going spare without an armour tank) then fit a long range launcher instead. Blasterships are lighter and more agile than Caldari missile-bricks, in fact missile ships are usually the slowest/heaviest in their class. This means that all the other BC and cruisers will outrun it easily if they also equip AB/MWD.. that is a major weakness that I'd rather be without. Admittedly the Drake is a little slower, but not cripplingly so- a wopping 5m/s slower thana Brutix (a venerable blaster boat if ever there was one) and only 800kkg heavier. With an intertial and and MWD it'll still be pretty quick- plenty quick enough to catch any ship without an MWD. True HAM ships still wont beat blaster ships toe-to-toe, but theres good reason for that (HAM arn't meant to eb the new I Win button, and blaster boats are a speciality). They'll still be ****ed useful though. They'll still be able to out speed anything without an MWD, and still be able to spit out the damage. They are the close range option- if you don't feel a ship will work in close range, choose a long range weapon. Don't ask for a bonus to make the short-range weapon hit long-range. ----------------------------------------------- If you're reading this, Patch86 was too lazy to select his main. Again.
IHaveTenFingers Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:42:00 - [40] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i guess the HAC owners union got its way. Mhe, tey deserve to get their way with the S***ty prices they have to pay for the things. ------------------------------------ My Opinions in no way reflect those of other members of ADVANCED Combat and Engineering.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:43:00 - [41] ooopsie, that was me ^^^^^ -----------------------------------------------
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:45:00 - [42] Originally by: IHaveTenFingers Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i guess the HAC owners union got its way. Mhe, tey deserve to get their way with the S***ty prices they have to pay for the things. More like the HAC BPO owners lobby got their way --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
IHaveTenFingers Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:56:00 - [43] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: IHaveTenFingers Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i guess the HAC owners union got its way. Mhe, tey deserve to get their way with the S***ty prices they have to pay for the things. More like the HAC BPO owners lobby got their way Hmm. ya know i find it very difficult to argue with that. ------------------------------------ My Opinions in no way reflect those of other members of ADVANCED Combat and Engineering.
Securion Wolfheart Caldari Semper Fidelis Industries	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:57:00 - [44] Why cant we Caldari have a ship we can use in pvp? What is so wrong with that? Drake could have been that ship, but nooo... Back to mission-whoring then. -----====----- Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.
Xoduse Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:57:00 - [45] Ok so the Amarr, Minnie, and Caldari BCs are all really good ships leaving Gallente the only one sub par due to its tiny drone bay. So instead of buffin the Myrm awith a little drone bay they bring down the uber nerf bat of doom on the other tier 2 BCs and bring them down to the myrms level? What a freakin shame. ---------------------
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:00:00 - [46] Originally by: Securion Wolfheart Why cant we Caldari have a ship we can use in pvp? What is so wrong with that? Drake could have been that ship, but nooo... Back to mission-whoring then. Only Raven can have a missile rate of fire bonus, it's the ship CCP decided that Caldari can PvP with, everything else must be rubbish I guess. Rate of fire bonus is not imbalanced on missile ships.. when is CCP going to realize it's a way better bonus than kinetic missile damage, which by the way CCP if you are paying attention is pretty much one of the worst offensive bonuses in the game. I'm sorry but "use kinetic missiles or have no bonus, period" is stupid.. Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Varrakk Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:00:00 - [47] Thats just so screwed up, the Drake was brilliant. It would have dealt with the absurd Cerberus prices. Same with the Hurricane, it would have lowered demand for Vagabonds. Get rid of that Kinetic damage bonus, make it a general or return the ROF bonus.
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:01:00 - [48] Cool, so we got a 50mil Caracal then? Nice. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Asariasha Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:03:00 - [49] I would like to thank all the whiners. Again some really nice ships got nerfed to death :/ Maybe a split setup now for Drake and again we got another useless Ferox omfg
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:04:00 - [50] Originally by: Patch Esquire They are the close range option- if you don't feel a ship will work in close range, choose a long range weapon. Don't ask for a bonus to make the short-range weapon hit long-range. 22.5 km is hardly long range... and well I really don't care for the resist bonus. It will just make the drake an extremely annoying heavy-missile spammer with a BS-tank. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
MOS DEF E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:08:00 - [51] You guys ask for ownageboats. If the hurricane and drake would'`ve stayed as they were they might as well have deleted the cyclone and ferox because they would be pointless. It's not the goal of tier 2 BC to render the tier 1 one useless.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:11:00 - [52] First off, quit your whining about Jav torps. They were overpowered to hell and back. Use your real torps or your cruise missiles. Secondly, I'd celebrate the death of the Drake, but at the same time, they killed the Hurricane. cancels ---------------------------- Please don't try to troll in your signature -Eldo([email protected]) I tried?
Charrette Nubs. Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:11:00 - [53] Edited by: Charrette on 16/11/2006 19:10:58 The pre-nerf Drake was completely overpowering to any ship not a BS, and even then the Drake was dangerous if the BS was setup wrong. Dropping a launcher was a good thing. But replacing the ROF bonus with that God-awful kinetic damage bonus makes absolutely no sense. Nearly every ship in the game is tanked to kinetic. i dont even bother fitting kinetic missiles on my caracal -- and i have caldari cruiser 5. (the exception to this is using rage ammo -- but how many people are willing to fly around in a 50mil isk caracal?) My point is that it's a fairly useless bonus for anything but ratting.
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:12:00 - [54] Originally by: MOS DEF You guys ask for ownageboats. If the hurricane and drake would'`ve stayed as they were they might as well have deleted the cyclone and ferox because they would be pointless. It's not the goal of tier 2 BC to render the tier 1 one useless. ferox still sucks....... Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Dekein No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:12:00 - [55] For kinetic missiles: Caracal: 5 * 1.25 = 6.25 (5 for other missile types) Ferox: 5 for all missile types Cerberus: 5 * 1.25 * 1.33 = 8.31 (6.65 for other missile types) NightHawk: 6 * 1.25 * 1.33 = 9.98 (7.98 for other missile types) Old Drake: 7 * 1.33 = 9.31 for all missile types New Drake: 6 * 1.25 = 7.5 (6 for other missile types) So, to put them in order for kinetic damage. Ferox(5) Caracal(6.25) Drake(7.5) Cerberus(8.31) Old Drake(9.31) NightHawk(9.98) Other damage types. Ferox(5) Caracal(5) Drake(6) Cerberus(6.65) NightHawk(7.98) Old Drake(9.31) yeah I was looking forward to the old Drake as well, but it's damage was not in line with the other mid sized Caldari missile ships. _____________________
Flamewave Scorn. Sani Khal'Vecna	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:13:00 - [56] I thought tier 2 battlecruisers were supposed to be gank before tank... Nerfing the damage output is kinda silly. It's the resistance bonus that should have changed if anything. :/
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:17:00 - [57] Originally by: Flamewave I thought tier 2 battlecruisers were supposed to be gank before tank... Nerfing the damage output is kinda silly. It's the resistance bonus that should have changed if anything. :/ As I just said in the other post- tell that to the Myrmdon. Worse DPS than a Brutix and with a repper bonus. Not sure Ganking was ever the name of the game for "all Tier 2 BCs". -----------------------------------------------
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:24:00 - [58] Now, with BOTH sporting 5% shield resists and one of them hybrid range, the other kinetic missile bonus... aren't they basically pretty much just BOTH "tank and almost no gank" ? If you want to change something, change the almost-too-overpowered 5% shield resist to 10% kinetic damage bonus and LEAVE the danged 5% RoF bonus in place. With 5% RoF bonus and 10% missile kinetic damage bonus, THAT would be a gank platform that wouldn't tank as good as a Ferox (well, to be honest, it still would due to sheer size difference, but at least it wouldn't be BETTER). And don't get me started on the slot setups and hitpoint amounts. Even WITHOUT 5% shield resists, the Drake can tank better as a Ferox no matter how you put it (extra HP, extra midslot), and with them it outclasses the Ferox by lightyears in tanking. Drake was SUPPOSED to be the "gank" version, Ferox the "tank" version, DANGNABBIT !!! 6 launchers (instead of 7), but keep RoF bonus, drop resists bonus... and add EITHER damage bonus or range bonus. Seing how the range on those HAMs is pretty low, a 10% range per level bonus would be sweet. Heck, even the idiotic 10% kinetic missile damage bonus (yes, right, on TOP of RoF bonus) would be nice. By the way, who is the... umm... nice person... yeah... that we have to thank for the idea behind the change from 5% RoF to kinetic damage ? You know, so I can... err... send them ISK as a thank you or something, yeah. _____ -sig- This is my only char. These are my skills Always question everything, including yourself
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:27:00 - [59] Originally by: Dekein For kinetic missiles: Caracal: 5 * 1.25 = 6.25 (5 for other missile types) Ferox: 5 for all missile types Cerberus: 5 * 1.25 * 1.33 = 8.31 (6.65 for other missile types) NightHawk: 6 * 1.25 * 1.33 = 9.98 (7.98 for other missile types) Old Drake: 7 * 1.33 = 9.31 for all missile types New Drake: 6 * 1.25 = 7.5 (6 for other missile types) So, to put them in order for kinetic damage. Ferox(5) Caracal(6.25) Drake(7.5) Cerberus(8.31) Old Drake(9.31) NightHawk(9.98) Other damage types. Ferox(5) Caracal(5) Drake(6) Cerberus(6.65) NightHawk(7.98) Old Drake(9.31) yeah I was looking forward to the old Drake as well, but it's damage was not in line with the other mid sized Caldari missile ships. You're comparing it with ships which are pretty underpowered. First of all Ferox isn't even a missile ship so why is it on the list? Though of course with these changes the Ferox is almost as good as a Drake now, in fact with the changes if you aren't using kinetic missiles the Ferox is ALMOST as good as a Drake!!! Wow good job CCP. Hell with the extra grid the Ferox has I bet it can even be a better missile ship than the Drake since it can fit more WTFPWN shield extenders, hooray! Caracal is ** in a sea of vomit. T1 cruisers blow, Caracal blows, it has its uses but overall pretty weak ship, there's only like 3 cruisers in EVE worth anything so yeah that will tell you how awesome the Caracal is, this ship needed a ROF bonus forever but will prob never get one. Nighthawk? The flat out worst Command Battlecruiser, when it gets the rate of fire bonus, it will be good. Far as the Drake goes, look, dropping a launcher is not a bad thing.. all of the tier2 battlecruisers were doing too much DPS, so to nerf it a bit, thats cool.. BUT, kinetic missile dmg? When a Caldari ship gets that bonus instead of rate of fire its like getting a "LOL U SUCK" stamp put on it to let the playerbase know it's a peice of crap. So I hope everyone enjoys flying them Ravens since it's the only ship the Caldari get worth training for if you wanna do day to day PvPing without looking to the T2 ships (where CCP actually gets a clue and puts ROF on some of the ships). Quote:** Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Tearavygh Quillam Caldari mega mining corporation Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:35:00 - [60] Originally by: Dekein For kinetic missiles: Caracal: 5 * 1.25 = 6.25 (5 for other missile types) Ferox: 5 for all missile types Cerberus: 5 * 1.25 * 1.33 = 8.31 (6.65 for other missile types) NightHawk: 6 * 1.25 * 1.33 = 9.98 (7.98 for other missile types) Old Drake: 7 * 1.33 = 9.31 for all missile types New Drake: 6 * 1.25 = 7.5 (6 for other missile types) So, to put them in order for kinetic damage. Ferox(5) Caracal(6.25) Drake(7.5) Cerberus(8.31) Old Drake(9.31) NightHawk(9.98) Other damage types. Ferox(5) Caracal(5) Drake(6) Cerberus(6.65) NightHawk(7.98) Old Drake(9.31) yeah I was looking forward to the old Drake as well, but it's damage was not in line with the other mid sized Caldari missile ships. It's a very good analysis and although i would have loved the "old drake" (which i tested on Sisi before and after the nerf), it was too good to be true (i hate to say it). The actual Drake on sisi is a great ship (even solo ganker) with the right setup, rigs included. It's only that it's dps got nerfed realy bad...
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:37:00 - [61] You know what would have been really awesome and interesting on the drake.. 5% rof -7.5% Signature Radius. Thing looks like a stealth catamaran anyway.
Tearavygh Quillam Caldari mega mining corporation Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:42:00 - [62] To Captain Raynor, as we speak i'm testing it on Sisi and it has a very good passive tank, something that i didn't succeed doing with a raven. The analysis compared it to the other caldari ships, just to find its position amongst them. Building a ship that would have been greater than its "t2 version" (Drake vs Nighthawk), wouldn't have been logical. It's a great ship as it is now, but as i said it before i would have certainly loved the 25% rof bonus.
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:44:00 - [63] Originally by: "Captain Raynor" Far as the Drake goes, look, dropping a launcher is not a bad thing.. all of the tier2 battlecruisers were doing too much DPS, so to nerf it a bit, thats cool.. BUT, kinetic missile dmg? When a Caldari ship gets that bonus instead of rate of fire its like getting a "LOL U SUCK" stamp put on it to let the playerbase know it's a peice of crap. Truer words have never been said. ROF bonuses are what makes Caldari ships PVP worthy. How terrible do you think a Raven would be if they replaced the ROF bonus with a Kinetic damage bonus? No one would use it. That's like telling minmatar pilots, "Okay, we'll give you a 5% damage bonus, but only if you use Fusion", or saying giving a Purifier bonus to EM cruise missiles only? Uh oh. That's right, the Purifier does have a damage to EM cruise missiles and that ship is a steaming pile of crap. It makes no fu$king sense. I don't care if Kinetic is Caldari's 'racial' bonus. Bonuses should reflect across the entire weapon class, not just over a singular ammo type. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:50:00 - [64] Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam To Captain Raynor, as we speak i'm testing it on Sisi and it has a very good passive tank, something that i didn't succeed doing with a raven. The analysis compared it to the other caldari ships, just to find its position amongst them. Building a ship that would have been greater than its "t2 version" (Drake vs Nighthawk), wouldn't have been logical. It's a great ship as it is now, but as i said it before i would have certainly loved the 25% rof bonus. The Drake was only better than the Nighthawk with it's tranquility stats, it's been boosted in KALI and given the ROF bonus it needs to be as good as the other command ships. The Drake losing a launcher is OK, it probably didn't need 7 to begin with just like the Hurricane didn't need 7 turrets. That's perfectly a good change IMO. But losing the ROF completely destroys the Drake, seriously dude the little setup you are running can be done with a Ferox, infact the DPS will be just a lil less when not using kinetic missiles and it will actually tank A LOT better since the Ferox has a lot more grid.... so yeah congrats CCP you turned the Drake into a ship that might not even be better than the Ferox which isn't even technically a missile ship when it comes to missiles........ GOOD CHANGE -- OH WAIT. Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:51:00 - [65] Or telling Gall that they only have a bonus for Kin/Therm weapons! Hang on a minute........ Or that they can only get the best damage out of Therm drones! Bah...... Not that I think the Drake should or shouldn't have a RoF bonus, I'm just saying is all -----------------------------------------------
Woga Lunapit	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:52:00 - [66] Well this is incredibly disappointing on a number of levels. Be you a builder or pvp-er. It gives the game a more 'level 60' feel too. Be you builder or pvp-er. Its also to me proven that CCP do listen to their players. Well at least one of them anyway. Gee thanks selene, and thanks for WOWing kali for me and a lot of people. I guess the future profits from your cerberus BPO are safe and a lot of the rest of us have met our glass ceiling in eve both in building and shooting things. Incredibly - incredibly disappointing. Especially the way the decision was made so arbitrarily. I'm not saying I'm leaving eve but I'm certainly gonna take another look at what is out there.
Mallakk	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:53:00 - [67] Nothing really constructive, but after logging on sisi, the only things i did when i saw the new drake was : laugh. Another caldari piece of crap to throw on the junk pile, it will meet there the raptor, the manticore, the hawk and the raven (useless in fleet, useless in pvp, sooo usefull in mission...). I was with the people who where thinking "too many caldari carebear only mission", now i only think : "what can a caldari do else than missionning ?"...
Commoner Caldari Emergent Chaos The Core Collective	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:54:00 - [68] Originally by: Mallakk Nothing really constructive, but after logging on sisi, the only things i did when i saw the new drake was : laugh. Another caldari piece of crap to throw on the junk pile, it will meet there the raptor, the manticore, the hawk and the raven (useless in fleet, useless in pvp, sooo usefull in mission...). I was with the people who where thinking "too many caldari carebear only mission", now i only think : "what can a caldari do else than missionning ?"... The caldari can now blob and laugh at people using ECM on them but not able to break their tanks.
Tearavygh Quillam Caldari mega mining corporation Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:09:00 - [69] Originally by: Captain Raynor Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam To Captain Raynor, as we speak i'm testing it on Sisi and it has a very good passive tank, something that i didn't succeed doing with a raven. The analysis compared it to the other caldari ships, just to find its position amongst them. Building a ship that would have been greater than its "t2 version" (Drake vs Nighthawk), wouldn't have been logical. It's a great ship as it is now, but as i said it before i would have certainly loved the 25% rof bonus. The Drake was only better than the Nighthawk with it's tranquility stats, it's been boosted in KALI and given the ROF bonus it needs to be as good as the other command ships. The Drake losing a launcher is OK, it probably didn't need 7 to begin with just like the Hurricane didn't need 7 turrets. That's perfectly a good change IMO. But losing the ROF completely destroys the Drake, seriously dude the little setup you are running can be done with a Ferox, infact the DPS will be just a lil less when not using kinetic missiles and it will actually tank A LOT better since the Ferox has a lot more grid.... so yeah congrats CCP you turned the Drake into a ship that might not even be better than the Ferox which isn't even technically a missile ship when it comes to missiles........ GOOD CHANGE -- OH WAIT. Well, just do the setup I have on the DRAKE right now, but do it on a FEROX with one less mid slot, one less launcher slot, 1 less high slot, a few thousand shield points less, and no damage bonus what so ever, see where it gets u. I say u better test it before talking... and the Drake would have out dps the actual Nighthawk or the announced Nighthawk that doesn't even exists on the test server. Reason was the 7th launcher. Changing the rof bonus into kinetic damage assures even more that any Nighthawk will stay before the Drake. No more talking around this subject, many chnages could take place before Revelations reaches TQ.
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:15:00 - [70] Originally by: Patch86 Or telling Gall that they only have a bonus for Kin/Therm weapons! Hang on a minute........ Or that they can only get the best damage out of Therm drones! Bah...... Not that I think the Drake should or shouldn't have a RoF bonus, I'm just saying is all That's a mechanic of game play that's been there since the beginning. Hybrids and Lasers are locked to their damage type so that arguement, while cute, is pointless. Drones however... they're a uniquely Gallente weapon system. Making them have attributes related to the racial damage types they exhibit is just another facet of the exact same problem of the concept of racial damage. Drones are all Gallente. There's no reason why an Ogre should do more thermal damage than a Wasp does kinetic or travel slower than a Berserker. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:35:00 - [71] Do you find it funy that 50% of this thread is the same 3 guys complaining about the nerf? I do. The drake and the hurricane are 40mil T1 ships. They are not intended to come close to outdamaging Commandships, and should just bearly be able to outdamage HACs while having no tank whatsoever. They should be slightly better than the Tier 1 battlecruisers, but nowhere near the damage a tier 1 battleship can put out. For those of you asking what is the point of having them? The answer is simple. Its something new and shiny that all the newish players can play around in without having to spend tons of money on battleships. if you're allready in the 30mil skillpoint range you should easily be able to afoard the overpriced godlyness that is a command ship or a HAC, or simply fly a battleship like everyone else does. ----
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:43:00 - [72] Originally by: Matrix Aran should just bearly be able to outdamage HACs while having no tank whatsoever. A BC that is as you described is utterly pointless. There are plenty to prove it, the ferox is like that. So is the cyclone and the prophecy. They have 1 defining characteristic in common - they are utter pants in PVP. The Brutix is allright, it does 40% more dps than a Thorax with a stronger tank. A BC that does not outdamage its cruiser equivalent by 40-50% or more is a total waste of database entries, and a total waste of 30-45m isk. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Mush Room Caldari Svea Rike Tre Kroner	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:44:00 - [73] Good job Tux, you took the easy route out and nerfed the Drake so that it's now yet another generic Caldari ship. With our ****ty racial bonus of KINETIC damage (completely useless in PvP of course) as icing on the cake. You sure have a gift for ruining perfectly good concepts. I guess we should be thankful you didn't lower the power grid too. Back to square one for Caldari then, raven, raven raven.
Segmentor Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:51:00 - [74] Why for gods sake are you nerfing the damage output? You got your will, nerfed 1v1 and small gang warfare, but thats not enough? I wasnt in favor of the Drake before, as im flying Gallente ships exclusively atm, but seeing as you nerf the abillity of dealing damage on pretty much any other ship saddens me... ---
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:56:00 - [75] Originally by: Matrix Aran Do you find it funy that 50% of this thread is the same 3 guys complaining about the nerf? I do. The drake and the hurricane are 40mil T1 ships. They are not intended to come close to outdamaging Commandships, and should just bearly be able to outdamage HACs while having no tank whatsoever. They should be slightly better than the Tier 1 battlecruisers, but nowhere near the damage a tier 1 battleship can put out. For those of you asking what is the point of having them? The answer is simple. Its something new and shiny that all the newish players can play around in without having to spend tons of money on battleships. if you're allready in the 30mil skillpoint range you should easily be able to afoard the overpriced godlyness that is a command ship or a HAC, or simply fly a battleship like everyone else does. Just because something isn't tech 2, doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to compete. Apparently you don't understand the concept of Battlecruisers at all. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Haffrage Revelations Inc. E N I G M A	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:05:00 - [76] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Dixon I'd settle for a RoF bonus but remove the resist bonus for a flight time bonus so the ship can actually use HAMs. Wait, you want a range bonus on the missile equivalent of blasters? What part of that seems sensible? HAMs are meant to be close range weapons, so a range bonus wou;ld most deffinatly not tbe the direction to go. You've never heard of a rocket crow have you? A frigate getting its close range equivalent out to 15KM with optimal skills. And I mean, God forbid you take a look at how far T1 torps on a Raven can go with optimal skills, a nice and shiny 126KM. Now, let's think, why can those missiles go farther than their gun counterparts? Oh I know! Becase missiles aren't guns. Get over it. -----
Max Hardcase Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:09:00 - [77] Command ships are there for 1 purpose only : Keep the gang modules in a very safe chassis. They're about defense and gang bonus, not damage.
Glarion Garnier Solar Wind	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:09:00 - [78] Hmm Instead of kinetic dmg I would give 5% dmg to heavy missiles / heavy assaults / This way it would have independent more usefull bonus vs just kinetic. If the Rof is too much what say you ?
Woga Lunapit	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:09:00 - [79] Originally by: Matrix Aran Do you find it funy that 50% of this thread is the same 3 guys complaining about the nerf? I do. The drake and the hurricane are 40mil T1 ships. They are not intended to come close to outdamaging Commandships, and should just bearly be able to outdamage HACs while having no tank whatsoever. They should be slightly better than the Tier 1 battlecruisers, but nowhere near the damage a tier 1 battleship can put out. For those of you asking what is the point of having them? The answer is simple. Its something new and shiny that all the newish players can play around in without having to spend tons of money on battleships. if you're allready in the 30mil skillpoint range you should easily be able to afoard the overpriced godlyness that is a command ship or a HAC, or simply fly a battleship like everyone else does. I count a whole lot more than 3 - more like 20+ Out of interest - do you own a t2 bpo?
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:13:00 - [80] Originally by: Imode Originally by: Matrix Aran Do you find it funy that 50% of this thread is the same 3 guys complaining about the nerf? I do. The drake and the hurricane are 40mil T1 ships. They are not intended to come close to outdamaging Commandships, and should just bearly be able to outdamage HACs while having no tank whatsoever. They should be slightly better than the Tier 1 battlecruisers, but nowhere near the damage a tier 1 battleship can put out. For those of you asking what is the point of having them? The answer is simple. Its something new and shiny that all the newish players can play around in without having to spend tons of money on battleships. if you're allready in the 30mil skillpoint range you should easily be able to afoard the overpriced godlyness that is a command ship or a HAC, or simply fly a battleship like everyone else does. Just because something isn't tech 2, doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to compete. Apparently you don't understand the concept of Battlecruisers at all. Originally by: Exodus description of Battlecruisers The design for battlecruisers was for them to be the needed mini-battleships, hard as hell and can deal above average cruiser damage Above average cruiser damage. Not above average HAC damage. ----
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:19:00 - [81] Originally by: Matrix Aran Above average cruiser damage. Not above average HAC damage. No, that EXACTLY the point of BCs. That's why they're also slower and have 2-3x the signature. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:21:00 - [82] The drake was with HAMs and jav HAMs outdamaging every other BC at 10km and beyond in the old version, so it needed a nerf (jav hams having 100 km range does not change anything there, the problem would still be there if they had a more sensible range of 40 km). -1 turret was IMO plenty there, though, an kinetic instead ROF bonus was not needed.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:21:00 - [83] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Man overnerfing must be fotm with CCP... Jav torps, Null, Drake, Hurricane... Whats next, Rokh? The only thing good about this is that the Zixxa-Troll is prolly in a permanent frothing fit now LOL SAL!!! Because I said so...
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:22:00 - [84] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Matrix Aran Above average cruiser damage. Not above average HAC damage. No, that EXACTLY the point of BCs. That's why they're also slower and have 2-3x the signature. Considering how they got nerfed the Dev's aparently don't agree with your interpretation of what a BC should be ableto do ----
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:32:00 - [85] Originally by: Matrix Aran Considering how they got nerfed the Dev's aparently don't agree with your interpretation of what a BC should be ableto do Brutix outdamages Deimos by 18% - decent Myrmidon equal or less damage than Ishtar - pants Ferox same damage as eagle - pants Drake less damage than Cerberus - pants Prophecy less damage than zealot - pants Harbinger outdamages Zealot by 40% - good Hurricane outdamages Muninn by ~10% - borderline usable a pattern begins to emerge... ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:34:00 - [86] The brutix and harbringer need to be nerfed? ----
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:37:00 - [87] Yes, lets make all BCs useless in pvp, great idea \o/ ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:42:00 - [88] Well AFAIK the original intent of the BC was to give the newer players an easier bridge between cruiser and battleship. Not a cheap HAC knockoff. The battlecruisers still have thier uses in small scale PVP for those who can not afoard a HAC or a BS. You shouldn't look at them with will it be the be all end all ship eyes, but more like will this be a decent ship for a relitivly well skilled guy to spend 40mil on. Is it comperable to other BC's? Can two of them stand a chance against a battleship with average fittings? Not: Will it pwn every HAC I see because I hate the T2 market and everything it stands for? ----
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:43:00 - [89] Sorry guys but a WTFPWN BC was too much. Massive tank + massive dps + cheap ship = unbalanced.
Max Hardcase Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:44:00 - [90] only thing that needed to be changed was 1600 plate to 1000 pg :)
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:00:00 - [91] Originally by: Matrix Aran Well AFAIK the original intent of the BC was to give the newer players an easier bridge between cruiser and battleship. Not a cheap HAC knockoff. The battlecruisers still have thier uses in small scale PVP for those who can not afoard a HAC or a BS. You shouldn't look at them with will it be the be all end all ship eyes, but more like will this be a decent ship for a relitivly well skilled guy to spend 40mil on. Is it comperable to other BC's? Can two of them stand a chance against a battleship with average fittings? Not: Will it pwn every HAC I see because I hate the T2 market and everything it stands for? Funny that you think that because Battlecruisers are skill heavy ships. Doesn't take long to get into them, but it takes long to fly them right. And by that same token, you shouldn't look at HACs as the be all end all either. They cost updwards of 200 mil but that's an inflated price. In reality they cost only 35-40mil to to build and in the end they're still just cruisers and they will pop just as fast as any other ship. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Matrix Aran Legio Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:05:00 - [92] Nearly every ship in the game could be considered skill heavy. Its still easier for a new character to get into them after being in a cruiser for a month and fly them right than get into BS. And that's thier purpose. True cost of HACs is about what you said, but comparitivly its about an extra 2 months training time minimum compared to the minimum to get into a BC. ----
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:14:00 - [93] Originally by: Max Hardcase Command ships are there for 1 purpose only : Keep the gang modules in a very safe chassis. They're about defense and gang bonus, not damage. That's the Fleet Command that require the logistic skill, not the Field Command that require HAC lvl 4. The Nighthawk was pure space crap, I should know, I fly Sleipnir also and seen the others, it should get a little boost with Kali. The Drake was a tad overpowered, but everyone seems to forget they were testing it with HAM spec lvl 5, would like to see a comparison with Medium Blaster spec 5 and Med AC spec 5. And about the tank, the HP buff affects everyone. I know it was still overpowered. But it was my ONLY hope for some HAC/FCS market leveling.
kalath1032 Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:14:00 - [94] yet again a possible good caldari pvp ship is made op then nerfed too much! they should have done it in stages rathered than took all its advantages away instanly just cos the minority complained too much i admit it was OP but to remove a slot and the ROF bonus was too much!!!!!! I wish i had never bothered with caldari thank god for the ROKH oh i forgot that on the next nerfing list!
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:15:00 - [95] Originally by: Matrix Aran Well AFAIK the original intent of the BC was to give the newer players an easier bridge between cruiser and battleship. Not a cheap HAC knockoff. The battlecruisers still have thier uses in small scale PVP for those who can not afoard a HAC or a BS. You shouldn't look at them with will it be the be all end all ship eyes, but more like will this be a decent ship for a relitivly well skilled guy to spend 40mil on. Is it comperable to other BC's? Can two of them stand a chance against a battleship with average fittings? Not: Will it pwn every HAC I see because I hate the T2 market and everything it stands for? I don't know where you're coming from, but BS are not the be-all end-all of EVE combat, many of us don't fly them, but find cruisers to be too weak. The BC is a class of its own that sits between Cruiser and BS, and also a ship that carries gang modules and hence designed to lead all gangs that are too small to warrant a carrier. This is especially true in Kali where only the leaders give gang bonuses. For that to be a usable concept, the damage and the tank has to be between the 2. If you put the damage too far down, you end up with a useless ship, because they're not much more mobile than a BS, and they don't cost that much less than a tier-1 BS - especially tier-2 BCs, which cost like 75%. If their DPS doesn't sit in between cruiser and BS, what's the point to them? A few % more than a cruiser is not between cruiser and BS, because BS outdamage cruisers by like 75%. They have to sit in the middle. Stunngly, Amarr are balanced here: Graph So no, the same damage as a HAC does not cut it, if the HAC's damage is not in between cruisers and BS. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
kalath1032 Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:17:00 - [96] Edited by: kalath1032 on 16/11/2006 22:19:09 Edited by: kalath1032 on 16/11/2006 22:18:41 Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: Max Hardcase Command ships are there for 1 purpose only : Keep the gang modules in a very safe chassis. They're about defense and gang bonus, not damage. That's the Fleet Command that require the logistic skill, not the Field Command that require HAC lvl 4. PS COME ON DEVS AND GMS POST! i want to know wot you think! The Nighthawk was pure space crap, I should know, I fly Sleipnir also and seen the others, it should get a little boost with Kali. The Drake was a tad overpowered, but everyone seems to forget they were testing it with HAM spec lvl 5, would like to see a comparison with Medium Blaster spec 5 and Med AC spec 5. And about the tank, the HP buff affects everyone. I know it was still overpowered. But it was my ONLY hope for some HAC/FCS market leveling. Truer word have never been said this is the key point people where using T2 stuff on it it was bound to appear OP t2 blaster PWN as well! PS POST DEVS AND GMS I WANT TO KNOW WOT U THINK
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:54:00 - [97] Originally by: One Percent The drake was ridiculously overpowered. Being Caldari spec'd I would have liked for it to retain the ROF bonus but it's only a T1 ship. Get off your lazy a**es and train for the Nighthawk. Everyone whines and wants a low-cost super-effective PvP ship... not happening for good reason. Maybe.... because... the nighthawk... sucks? And yes, I'm aware of the recent changes to nighthawk coming in kali.
Asariasha Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:58:00 - [98] Not everyone whines...ok except Amarr & Gallente who did a very good job The only thing most Caldari pilots wanted is at least one close range combat vessel that can compete with the other races BCs instead of always long ranged ships and opponents that are able to warp away all the time. I really hope CCP is going to change that crappy kinetic missile bonus back into RoF bonus.
Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:03:00 - [99] Yup this sucks now too, drop one launcher, that's all it needed, good job, now you've made more crap.
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:08:00 - [100] What in the goded christ CCP? Bloody hell, sure, take away 1 missile slot, but take away the ROF at the same time?!?!?! Uh, I, among others, LIKE being able to use more than one bloody damage type. Using KIN missiles smacks us bad cos all Gallente and Amarrian T2 ships have a big bonus to their resists on that damage. Goddammit, up until now I hoped that CCP would make this patch the "best-eva" but looks like my trust was misplaced. And I'm not saying this cos my ship got nerfed, I would have been fine, even encouraged, a loss of one launcher for balance, but the fact that they instead of boosting the myrmidon, they nerfed everything else? what the god****ed hell? "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
Tricit Caldari Ganja Unlimited Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:24:00 - [101] Great, everyone sucks so much that we're almost all equal!!! If only Abbadon weren't doomed to pirate sniping, which was nerfed.
Denrace Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:31:00 - [102] Once again, a sad day for EVE Players. Cant help but lose a tiny bit of faith in whoever was responsible. Bonuses need to be discussed on forums and stuff. Not in an office, then suddenly and radically changed in a "lets pray they work" kind of way. Solution: Drake gets a ROF bonus AND a kinetic missile damage bonus, but loses some shield resistances, powergrid and some shield HP for it. What do we get? A very powerful and cheap Caldari DPS ship, but happens to be made of paper. Hurricane? Keep the 6 turrets, up its speed by 50m/s or something. Den ________________________________________
JoeT Amarr Short Attention Span	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:31:00 - [103] a drake with 7 launchers and that rof murdered my zealot with no prbs :( **, i had to beat it at its own game and just out tank the ***. that took 30mins --- If i'm posting on the forums, it's mostly cause i'm at work :D
Apollyonn Caldari Lantean Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:51:00 - [104] Geeze CCP! What happened? Everyone who flew Caldari was finally going to have a good Battlecruiser and you guys stiff us after everyone has started getting excited about this ship?! Tux and anyone else who can change it, please fix this back to the way it was before. I can deal with one less launcher, but give us the RoF! I don't always use kinetic missiles and that RoF did everyone more good than kinetic damage boost. I like the resistance bonus, and the RoF bonus made this a well rounded ship. Now, its just not worth it. And for all of us who started stockpiling and taking orders for this ship, we are likely to lose customers because of this! Please don't let our efforts be in vain! CCP CHANGE THE RoF BONUS BACK PLEASE! Fleet Admiral
Rule2k Fate.	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:56:00 - [105] lol at all the caldari pilots whining/moaning about how their faag-boats are not how the used to be. you would be happy with the changes if you were on the other side of the 1v1 in a turret ship. if u dont like the way ccp run their games go play another game. i speak for myself, and not fate. corp
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:59:00 - [106] Originally by: Denrace Bonuses need to be discussed on forums and stuff. Not in an office, then suddenly and radically changed in a "lets pray they work" kind of way. um... no. forums are good for feedback, not game development. Originally by: Denrace Solution: Drake gets a ROF bonus AND a kinetic missile damage bonus, but loses some shield resistances, powergrid and some shield HP for it. What do we get? A very powerful and cheap Caldari DPS ship, but happens to be made of paper. Hurricane? Keep the 6 turrets, up its speed by 50m/s or something. Den i do, however, very much like your above ideas for both ships. i wish to god we (minnies) were more speed intensive as is supposed to be our forte... (not to derail a caldari thread) i think the drakes problem was very specific, think the lost launcher is cool but the kinetic bonus is a cop-out they use frequently on you caldari guys (god i wish i could install the client at work, these forums are like an addictive form of torture)
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:18:00 - [107] FFS Tuxford, when will you get anything done right For the first time I'll probably agree with Raynor! The RoF was not what the ppl moaned about the drake, it was its insane shields and the passive tank one could fit on it. Now do the right thing pls and put back the ROF bonus while nerfing the resistance bonus... BTW while we are at it myrmidon blows, and you know why? Cause it tries to out dmg the blasterboat brutix, while droneboats were always lower tier and lesser DMG than blasterboats, switch the 2 and replace the useless rep bonus to falloff bonus or something useful. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Denrace Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:25:00 - [108] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Denrace Bonuses need to be discussed on forums and stuff. Not in an office, then suddenly and radically changed in a "lets pray they work" kind of way. um... no. forums are good for feedback, not game development. Probably didnt word that quite right. I meant discuss WITH the players before radically altering things suddenly with seemingly no ideas taken from the games actual playerbase. You get what i mean? Sorry for the dodgy wording Den ________________________________________
Protunia Gallente Horadrim	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:28:00 - [109] I dont think the drake needs anymore drone bay!! My Character Stats
Madcat Adams Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:31:00 - [110] While I do sympathize at the stern nerfing of the Drake, can't help but say one thing. Be glad your ship wasn't given an EM missle dmg bonus. It's great being Amarr, ain't it? Aimez- "oh ****, this is empire......." Thanks for the loot, and next time you go out to pirate, carry more tech 2 plz =)
LordZer00 Caldari Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:39:00 - [111] The dev's have apparently never heard of making small changes... How can you not look at every other MMO that has been released and realize that overreacting while trying to balance completely destroys balance... Just like the 50% hp buff... When you want to tweak something, you change 1 Variable, and you change it in small increments. I have to assume at this point that what they are testing is not how to balance Kali, but how much crap their player base will swallow before telling them to shove their game and continue on to the next MMO.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:48:00 - [112] Originally by: Denrace You get what i mean? Den i kinda re-read what i wrote and wondered if thats what you actually meant. I, along w/ everyone else, often am left wondering 'wtf are they doing over there?' but honestly, i'm sure (well hoping) this wasn't a rash or knee jerk decision. like i said... well somewhere, i'm lost in the forums today... the combat boosters and rigs are gonna really throw balance out the window and leave game ability up to the ingenuity and imagination of the pilot. bottom line, i'm sure they had a **** good reason for doing it. Whether or not they care to share that reason with us.... well thats kinda their prerogative
Protunia Gallente Horadrim	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:49:00 - [113] Originally by: LordZer00 The dev's have apparently never heard of making small changes... How can you not look at every other MMO that has been released and realize that overreacting while trying to balance completely destroys balance... Just like the 50% hp buff... When you want to tweak something, you change 1 Variable, and you change it in small increments. I have to assume at this point that what they are testing is not how to balance Kali, but how much crap their player base will swallow before telling them to shove their game and continue on to the next MMO. Considering Kali isnt a part of the real game yet I find it funny to see all these people acting like it is. Its a TEST patch on a TEST server so insteasd of all the whining go test bring back some solid numbers why the changes dont work. Then myabe then you'll get back alittle bit. But if you think by coming here screaming up and down you were robbed that they will change anything I think alot of people are going to find out they are sadly mistaken. As to wether or not someone cancels their account?? using this or any other small change in a test server as a reason to bail just shows they were headed out the door sooner or later anyways. Bye ;) Can I have yer stuff!!! My Character Stats
xOm3gAx Caldari Bre-X	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:50:00 - [114] you know whats really funny i remember long ago in the days of castor and even some of the early shiva days Tomb did alot of double nerfing (and yeah nerfing was usually needed) but when he did it would break things and then you CCP would take 1 full year to fix them... Arty's, EW, Missiles, Etc. The list goes on.... STOP DOUBLE NERFING PLEASE Nerf 1 time 1 time only see if the problem still exists and then nerf it again. Its better then completly crippling a ship or mod so that the item stops being used.... Think damage control units only in this case ppl actually used them before you touched them and not after. This pretty much says something. I gotta say that a kinetic dmg bonus is 100% pointless and does NOTHING when kinetic is the MOST tanked dmg type in the game rof bonus or dmg bonus to all missiles is far better. Though in the case of the drake a bonus to ROF would be nice as it would be a CHANGE and not the same STATIC content. Nuf said. Thx and sorry if i was harsh pls dont nerf me again =) ---------------------------------------- http://www.oldnumber7.com/forumpic.gif Please ensure your signature is 24,000 bytes or less - Udat
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:05:00 - [115] 20% reduction in DPS, ouch. Although in a messed up way this makes me happy, that is until Tuxford finds the Harbinger too powerful with anything but Civilian Lasers. Last Weeks Signature
Daniel Jackson Caldari Black Force	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:08:00 - [116] Edited by: Daniel Jackson on 17/11/2006 03:12:29 Fracking CCP yet again shos there Hate tords Caldari, but we shoue still stand gracefuly in our loyal to the state!!! and go threw all challenges and nerfs that comes our way!!!!!!!!!!!! BECAUSE WE----ARE----THE----CALDARI AND WE WILL TRIEMPH ___________________
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:14:00 - [117] Originally by: Aeaus 20% reduction in DPS, ouch. No, its a 46% reduction in damage, since nobody is going to use kin missiles apart from NPCers, and they don't count. ((7/.75)-5)/((7/.75)/100) = 46.4286% Or if you prefer: ((7/.75)-5)/.05 = 83% The pre-nerf drake did 83% more damage. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:16:00 - [118] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Aeaus 20% reduction in DPS, ouch. No, its a 46% reduction in damage, since nobody is going to use kin missiles apart from NPCers, and they don't count. ((7/.75)-5)/((7/.75)/100) = 46.4286% Or if you prefer: ((7/.75)-5)/.05 = 83% The pre-nerf drake did 83% more damage. I'm sorry, that's invalid. Same as fitting projectiles on an abaddon and complaining it does less damage then the Armageddon. Other races are limited in their damage types as well, forcing kinetic damage is CCPs way of enforcing it on Caldari as well. My Apocalypse can have a nice damage output, but in reality it doesn't with lasers, you want more variety you pay with less damage just like we do. </rant off> Last Weeks Signature
LordZer00 Caldari Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:17:00 - [119] Originally by: Protunia Originally by: LordZer00 The dev's have apparently never heard of making small changes... How can you not look at every other MMO that has been released and realize that overreacting while trying to balance completely destroys balance... Just like the 50% hp buff... When you want to tweak something, you change 1 Variable, and you change it in small increments. I have to assume at this point that what they are testing is not how to balance Kali, but how much crap their player base will swallow before telling them to shove their game and continue on to the next MMO. Considering Kali isnt a part of the real game yet I find it funny to see all these people acting like it is. Its a TEST patch on a TEST server so insteasd of all the whining go test bring back some solid numbers why the changes dont work. Then myabe then you'll get back alittle bit. But if you think by coming here screaming up and down you were robbed that they will change anything I think alot of people are going to find out they are sadly mistaken. As to wether or not someone cancels their account?? using this or any other small change in a test server as a reason to bail just shows they were headed out the door sooner or later anyways. Bye ;) Can I have yer stuff!!! So, I said I was quiting? Thats news to me, since I really don't remember typing that. Secondly, you think they made these changes based on hard numbers that were posted in this forum? The main item that was complained about with the Drake was not the damage, it was the damage combined with a giant passive shield setup. Tier 2 BC's we're stated as being 'more gank and less tank', but I don't see a single thing done to the tanking ability while they were nerfing the damage. Oh, and the whole point is that these aren't "small changes", and if you don't think that the test server is indicative of what will be released on TQ then you are also missing the "test server" concept.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:22:00 - [120] Edited by: keepiru on 17/11/2006 03:24:59 You can all it all you want, its still the truth. Kin bonus is used just as much as the EM missile damage bonus is on the Amarr ships that have it. Which is to say, its not. Missiles, as much as I dislike them and the ships they fit on (because they're boring) already pay the price of perfect damage type switching with their dps. I wish they'd get rid of all single-damage-type missile bonuses, they're lame and just sit there nto used on basically every ship they're on. Useless bonuses ftl. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:25:00 - [121] Originally by: keepiru ... I'm not in any way saying that the nerf was necessary, and I'll be the first to admit it was too much. Both the Drake and Hurricane got hit with nerfs where they didn't need them, instead of solving the tanking problem. Last Weeks Signature
Protunia Gallente Horadrim	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:26:00 - [122] wasnt exactly just responding to you :) but the whole whine fest i read through. look everyone here knew they were over powered and yes based on tests. They nerfed because they felt is was just. If anyone here feels it was wrong go TEST on the TEST server and bring back the hard cold facts about ALL the new BC's after the changes. Possibly they will change some thing again?? Either way I would much rather have them error on the side of making them less effective than over powered when they come to TQ. At least then they can fixed without people abusing the set up before hand. My Character Stats
ramptrick Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:52:00 - [123] at last the poxy drake got the nerf, about time im so glad about that was way way to over powered.. good day to be anything else than sucky caldari!!!
Daniel Jackson Caldari Black Force	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:57:00 - [124] Originally by: ramptrick at last the poxy drake got the nerf, about time im so glad about that was way way to over powered.. good day to be anything else than sucky caldari!!! YOU SIR SHOULD BE SHOT AND YOUR CORPSE BE ABUSED ___________________
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:01:00 - [125] I can already tell you what the results are. The "overpowered" uber-tanked Hurricane AC setup is just as overpowered, since its tank (which was the whole issue vs. other gunboat BCs) hasn't decreased any. The artillery hurricane is nerfed into worthlessness. The drake is a waste of space, just like the ferox. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Grammer	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:33:00 - [126] sry ccp you went WAY! to far. For once we were going to get a ship that could do pvp. I guess i am going back to training Gall ship.
violator2k5 Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 05:04:00 - [127] i guess the devs / gms were drunk when they decided that this was best for the eve community. if you dont want the drake to have rof bonus fine but at least give it a all round missile dmg bonus.... kinetic dmg is a jk
Sentinel Eeex Caldari Two Brothers Mining Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:03:00 - [128] Never underestimate whining power of HAC/CBC BPO owners...
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:56:00 - [129] Originally by: Grammer sry ccp you went WAY! to far. For once we were going to get a ship that could do pvp. I guess i am going back to training Gall ship. If "by do pvp" you mean "can wtfpwn 2 or 3 ships of its size" then you're right.
MECTO Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:42:00 - [130] good change It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
Faricar Caldari Knightmares Inc	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:07:00 - [131] Edited by: Faricar on 17/11/2006 08:11:56 SOLUTION Change the Bonuses to: 5% to shield resistance per skill level, 5% to Rate of Fire of heavy assault missiles If you restrict it to HAMs then people have less of a choice over missiles but still get then bonus if they are willing to sacrifice something... PROBLEM SOLVED
Ed Gein Dark Blade Incorporated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:16:00 - [132] What is the drawback to HAM again? Is it just range, honestly not sure, but some guy was hitting me with them in his drake at 60km Or was that just lag? -------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight? The Winner.
Ed Gein Dark Blade Incorporated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:21:00 - [133] Also, haven't read the five pages, not going to bother. I will just that I fought a drake, that was setup for full tech 2 tank before the nerf, and there was not a single minmatar ship I could field short of a BS that could kill it. And I have BC 5 and all tech 2 stuff yada yada... I even took the time to build a projectile damage and rof rig for my hurricane, and still didnt make a dent in its shields before I was dead. And that was with 7 tech 2 425's and 2 gyro's. Also had 10k armor with 55+ resistances across the board. The drake just did way to much dmg and tanking before the nerf. (though limiting you to kinetic is sort of lame I agree) -------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight? The Winner.
Khan Farshatok Caldari Occam's Razor Combine Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:21:00 - [134] Feck this -back to Raven. I don't give a s**t about Tier2 BC's anymore.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:22:00 - [135] Originally by: Ed Gein What is the drawback to HAM again? Is it just range, honestly not sure, but some guy was hitting me with them in his drake at 60km Or was that just lag? If HAMs have a sacrifice, I don't know what it is. Jav HAMs hit out to 60k just like you said.
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:27:00 - [136] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Ed Gein What is the drawback to HAM again? Is it just range, honestly not sure, but some guy was hitting me with them in his drake at 60km Or was that just lag? If HAMs have a sacrifice, I don't know what it is. Jav HAMs hit out to 60k just like you said. harder to fit, worse explosive radius/velocity over heavy missiles Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:30:00 - [137] Originally by: Captain Raynor Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Ed Gein What is the drawback to HAM again? Is it just range, honestly not sure, but some guy was hitting me with them in his drake at 60km Or was that just lag? If HAMs have a sacrifice, I don't know what it is. Jav HAMs hit out to 60k just like you said. harder to fit, worse explosive radius/velocity over heavy missiles Gee, life is hard. Can you change medium blasters to only have those sacrifices?
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:32:00 - [138] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Captain Raynor Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Ed Gein What is the drawback to HAM again? Is it just range, honestly not sure, but some guy was hitting me with them in his drake at 60km Or was that just lag? If HAMs have a sacrifice, I don't know what it is. Jav HAMs hit out to 60k just like you said. harder to fit, worse explosive radius/velocity over heavy missiles Gee, life is hard. Can you change medium blasters to only have those sacrifices? sometimes one should remove head from anus and look at overall ships rather than just the weapons Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:37:00 - [139] Originally by: Captain Raynor sometimes one should remove head from anus and look at overall ships rather than just the weapons Funnily enough, that's exactly what just happened. The result? Nerfs. :)
meppa Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:40:00 - [140] To be absolutely honest, restricting some races more to their preferred damage type is just what is needed. It will force people to think about thier tanks more and make certain tanks stronger against certain races. Amarrian point of view on changing missile rof to kinetic damage boost is excellent. Use kinetic if you want highest dps out. Next i would like to see 10% drone damage on gallente to be changed 10% drone thermal damage. "...but come on, dropping the rate of fire bonus for kinetic missile damage?" with same logic all amarrian ships (get bonus just to em or em/thermal) are nerfed to death. You will adopt and deal kinetic, which will change focus of some tanks. Kinetic and thermic are nice allrounders on shield and armour while em and expl are more against just shield or armour. Further more on against npc:s imo every race should counter best their natural opponent, which is guristas with caldari which means kinetic damage while there are other factions that are far more harder to deal with. You still got your raven with universal bonus. Live with it and win with skill, not superior equipment.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:42:00 - [141] Originally by: meppa To be absolutely honest, restricting some races more to their preferred damage type is just what is needed. It will force people to think about thier tanks more and make certain tanks stronger against certain races. Amarrian point of view on changing missile rof to kinetic damage boost is excellent. Use kinetic if you want highest dps out. Next i would like to see 10% drone damage on gallente to be changed 10% drone thermal damage. Right after drones become invulnerable to dmg.
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:49:00 - [142] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Captain Raynor sometimes one should remove head from anus and look at overall ships rather than just the weapons Funnily enough, that's exactly what just happened. The result? Nerfs. :) i'm sorry but when you fitted a 4x lrg extender 2x invul field drake on sisi vs an armor tanked turreted ship with a mwd/scrambler/web and the former loses it's not because it's not as powerful, its because the drake was fitted with a rather unrealistic setup for tranq pvp aka ep33n setup and not a real setup that works, like one with mwd/scrambler/web, yanno a setup where you can actually pin people down and get a kill the drake was overpowered, so was the hurricane (it still is very flexible in fitting with ACs, tho), -1 launcher -1 turret sure, thats fine.. the bonus changes kill the drake, i know you are a biased caldari hating kind of guy but honestly putting that kin dmg bonus on missile ships flat out kills them, which is why people still see the raven as the only beacon of hope for pvping as caldari all our other ships we get are better off mission running for caldari navy than they are for pvp, kinetic dmg bonus just kills us, rate of fire is obviously a much better bonus and allows for more versatility, something missile ships are supposed to have, which is why launchers don't dish out the DPS that lasers, hybrids, and proj do don't want to believe it, fine, dont, but trust me in pvp i avoid kinetic like the plague esp vs t2 ships which all have elavated kinetic resist sans minmatar the drake could be a nice ship, a nice alternative to the raven in pvp, if it had ROF, now it's just a lame duck like the caracal, hell ferox can actually get a better all-rounder setup with launchers and dish out pretty close to the DPS the drake does.. not bad for a railboat? and yes, i am fully aware that turrets for the most part do 2 damage types, but that's right, TWO damage types that is much better than just getting a bonus to 1 damage type.. hell hybrids do get high thermal damage ammo too yanno, theyre just not straight up kinetic anymore with t2 ammos wts clue: much easier to tank 1 damage type than it is 2 you wanna buy one? Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:57:00 - [143] Originally by: Captain Raynor the drake could be a nice ship, a nice alternative to the raven in pvp, if it had ROF, now it's just a lame duck like the caracal, hell ferox can actually get a better all-rounder setup with launchers and dish out pretty close to the DPS the drake does.. not bad for a railboat? I think I discovered the flaw in your thinking. Battlecruisers aren't supposed to be an alternative for situations that call for a battleship.
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:00:00 - [144] Originally by: Ed Gein Also, haven't read the five pages, not going to bother. I will just that I fought a drake, that was setup for full tech 2 tank before the nerf, and there was not a single minmatar ship I could field short of a BS that could kill it. And I have BC 5 and all tech 2 stuff yada yada... I even took the time to build a projectile damage and rof rig for my hurricane, and still didnt make a dent in its shields before I was dead. And that was with 7 tech 2 425's and 2 gyro's. Also had 10k armor with 55+ resistances across the board. The drake just did way to much dmg and tanking before the nerf. (though limiting you to kinetic is sort of lame I agree) where was youre target painter during this ?
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:12:00 - [145] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Captain Raynor the drake could be a nice ship, a nice alternative to the raven in pvp, if it had ROF, now it's just a lame duck like the caracal, hell ferox can actually get a better all-rounder setup with launchers and dish out pretty close to the DPS the drake does.. not bad for a railboat? I think I discovered the flaw in your thinking. Battlecruisers aren't supposed to be an alternative for situations that call for a battleship. I did't say the Drake had to be as powerful as the Raven, but it could have been a nice ship to mess around in being faster and smaller than the Raven and able to put down decent DPS with HAMs. Now it's just a crappy mission running ship, the Caldari Navy must be thrilled another ship can join its ranks to chain Guristas 24/7. Once again Caldari are big time losers in the battlecruiser department, the Ferox is a joke, now the Drake is a joke, skip battlecruisers skills folks, not worth it if you are Caldari (maybe Nighthawk won't suck with ROF). Omen to Harbinger is an incredible leap in power, Caracal to Drake? LOL. Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:15:00 - [146] Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 17/11/2006 09:17:45 Originally by: Captain Raynor Omen to Harbinger is an incredible leap in power, Caracal to Drake? LOL. Caracal = what? 12,000 shields? Drake = 30,000+. Caracal = 5 launcher. Drake = 6. Caracal = 2 lowslots. Drake = what? 3 or 4? Looks like an incredible leap in power to me.
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:18:00 - [147] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Captain Raynor Omen to Harbinger is an incredible leap in power, Caracal to Drake? LOL. Caracal = what? 12,000 shields? Drake = 30,000+. Caracal = 5 launcher. Drake = 6. Caracal = 2 lowslots. Drake = what? 4 or 5? Looks like an incredible leap in power to me. Wow you sure are the expert in Drakes since you don't even know the slot layout on them, its 4, so yanno. Drakes don't have 30k shield, what are you smoking, seriously. You can get like 24k if you fit nothing but extenders and power diagnostic units, hint: NOT A GOOD PVP SETUP. Hey guys nerf Apoc plz, it has 90k armor i fit a bunch of 1600mm plates on it and its unbeatable and i ran out of cap trying to kill it lol!!!!!! Oh wait.. Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:21:00 - [148] Originally by: Captain Raynor Wow you sure are the expert in Drakes since you don't even know the slot layout on them, its 4, so yanno. Drakes don't have 30k shield, what are you smoking, seriously. You can get like 24k if you fit nothing but extenders and power diagnostic units, hint: NOT A GOOD PVP SETUP. I flew it on the test server about 5 times and wtfpwned everything I came across. That was enough for me to quit flying it. And 30k shields is easy. Try some core defence field extender rigs and quit being a noob.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:22:00 - [149] Originally by: Captain Raynor Omen to Harbinger is an incredible leap in power, Caracal to Drake? LOL. This might be because the Omen is far far far far....far far far worse the the Caracal
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:22:00 - [150] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Captain Raynor Wow you sure are the expert in Drakes since you don't even know the slot layout on them, its 4, so yanno. Drakes don't have 30k shield, what are you smoking, seriously. You can get like 24k if you fit nothing but extenders and power diagnostic units, hint: NOT A GOOD PVP SETUP. I flew it on the test server about 5 times and wtfpwned everything I came across. That was enough for me to quit flying it. And 30k shields is easy. Try some core defence field extender rigs and quit being a noob. i'd rather fit rigs that added rof and dmg so i could actually kill someone instead of circle jerking to shield hp Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:26:00 - [151] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Captain Raynor Omen to Harbinger is an incredible leap in power, Caracal to Drake? LOL. This might be because the Omen is far far far far....far far far worse the the Caracal Perhaps, and the Drake is far far far far ..... far far far worse than the Harbinger. Omens issue is mostly with fittings, is it not? Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:26:00 - [152] Originally by: Captain Raynor i'd rather fit rigs that added rof and dmg so i could actually kill someone instead of circle jerking to shield hp Maybe that has something to do with why my drake killed everything and yours didn't.
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:29:00 - [153] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Captain Raynor i'd rather fit rigs that added rof and dmg so i could actually kill someone instead of circle jerking to shield hp Maybe that has something to do with why my drake killed everything and yours didn't. maybe it has something to do with the fact i dont live in a land of make believe where my sisi ep33n look at me im so uber with my stupid can't chase down and catch, scramble, web or be even be remotely mobile setup actually works on tranquility where the real pvp is i'm so glad you fit a bunch of extenders on a drake and had such a great time watching people take forever to kill you while doing 150dps, you are the caldari master /bow seriously, get bent Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:32:00 - [154] Originally by: Captain Raynor Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Captain Raynor i'd rather fit rigs that added rof and dmg so i could actually kill someone instead of circle jerking to shield hp Maybe that has something to do with why my drake killed everything and yours didn't. maybe it has something to do with the fact i dont live in a land of make believe where my sisi ep33n look at me im so uber with my stupid can't chase down and catch, scramble, web or be even be remotely mobile setup actually works on tranquility where the real pvp is i'm so glad you fit a bunch of extenders on a drake and had such a great time watching people take forever to kill you while doing 150dps, you are the caldari master /bow seriously, get bent Try 400 DPS and I had a 20k scrambler fitted. You keep trying to skew this example through exaggeration and it ain't working.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:32:00 - [155] Originally by: Captain Raynor my stupid can't chase down and catch, scramble, web or be even be remotely mobile setup actually works on tranquility where the real pvp is MWD WEB SCRAM SHIELD BOOSTER INVULNERABILITY FIELD INVULNERABILITY FIELD DAMAGE CONTROL Is that so hard Jimmy boy?
NeoOhm Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:34:00 - [156] Edited by: NeoOhm on 17/11/2006 09:36:23 CCP, plz dont fuk up one more Caldari ship. Im all out caldari/missiles and i realy thinking of just retrain all my * weaponskills cause of the stinky bonuses and selection of Caldari ships. Like the Hawk for example, i was glad when i hear it would be a missile ship, then when we finaly got it it was a disaster. And now, what do we have left.. The cerb and the Raven (but u cant just leave it alone can u, noo we nerf this one to). I want more missile ships for Caldari, more variation and better bonuses. Kinetic bonus is just lame. The drake is not to good if u do -1 launcher. Keep it like that and dont reduce rof. Better to add some ** to the other races ships instead, like a bonus to tractorbeams or something. :)
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:35:00 - [157] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Captain Raynor my stupid can't chase down and catch, scramble, web or be even be remotely mobile setup actually works on tranquility where the real pvp is MWD WEB SCRAM SHIELD BOOSTER INVULNERABILITY FIELD INVULNERABILITY FIELD DAMAGE CONTROL Is that so hard Jimmy boy? EVER TRY FITTING ALL THAT AND YOU WILL RUN OUT OF CAP IN FIFTEEN SECONDS TRY FITTING THE SHIP BEFORE GIVING SETUPS THANKS Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:38:00 - [158] Originally by: Captain Raynor RUN OUT OF CAP Ever hear of NOS and PDUs Jimmy boy? How about trade offs?
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:40:00 - [159] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Captain Raynor RUN OUT OF CAP Ever hear of NOS and PDUs Jimmy boy? How about trade offs? ever look at the drakes grid? good luck fitting mwd and med nos on there with ham IIs, also good luck with cap, it will die fast, real fast you probably need injector, which also doesnt fit, good luck with shield tanking with 2 slots Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:43:00 - [160] Originally by: Captain Raynor ever look at the drakes grid? good luck fitting mwd and med nos on there with ham IIs, also good luck with cap, it will die fast, real fast you probably need injector, which also doesnt fit, good luck with shield tanking with 2 slots 5 slots. You keep forgetting rigs.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:44:00 - [161] Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 17/11/2006 09:45:18 Originally by: Captain Raynor ever look at the drakes grid? good luck fitting mwd and med nos on there with ham IIs, also good luck with cap, it will die fast, real fast you probably need injector, which also doesnt fit, good luck with shield tanking with 2 slots Guess thats a NO on ever hearing about trade offs eh. How about webber drones? That will get you your extra mid you so desperately claim to need while still webbing your target. You aren't going to get a ship that can do everything perfectly, no one is. Once you accept that maybe you can stop trying to fit a 6 slot shield tank along with MWD/WEB/SCRAM, a damage control, 3 BCUs and 4 PDUs, because guess what Jimmy boy, it isn't going to happen no matter how much you want it to.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:05:00 - [162] WTF?! The Drake got nerfed? Well crippity crap.. KALI:Revelations.. Putting the Waaaa back in Piwat..
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:05:00 - [163] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 17/11/2006 09:45:18 Originally by: Captain Raynor ever look at the drakes grid? good luck fitting mwd and med nos on there with ham IIs, also good luck with cap, it will die fast, real fast you probably need injector, which also doesnt fit, good luck with shield tanking with 2 slots Guess thats a NO on ever hearing about trade offs eh. How about webber drones? That will get you your extra mid you so desperately claim to need while still webbing your target. You aren't going to get a ship that can do everything perfectly, no one is. Once you accept that maybe you can stop trying to fit a 6 slot shield tank along with MWD/WEB/SCRAM, a damage control, 3 BCUs and 4 PDUs, because guess what Jimmy boy, it isn't going to happen no matter how much you want it to. do you get off on calling me "jimmy boy" or something? its kinda ***, cease and desist k? anyways, if you fit mwd/scram/web even with 2 pdu II fitted, you can't fit even a small nos, and this is with AWU5 no injector, no nos, no cap period, you are not going to survive in pvp not to mention rage heavy assaults make your cap recharge even worse... ya good luck shield tanking folks -27.5% cap recharge per launcher.. so yes a drake needs an injector too, ok this ship is flat out broke sorry. Quote:** Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:09:00 - [164] I repeat. And i'm in full agreement with Raynor here. Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Protunia Gallente Horadrim	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:11:00 - [165] you could always change the name to the rake instead ;) My Character Stats
Ultimate Poison	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:12:00 - [166] Originally by: Captain Raynor Hey at least we have the Raven, thank god because it's the only freaking good Caldari ship pretty much for general pvp combat usage. It's obvious you have never done any serious PVP.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:17:00 - [167] Originally by: Captain Raynor do you get off on calling me "jimmy boy" or something? its kinda *****, cease and desist k? anyways, if you fit mwd/scram/web even with 2 pdu II fitted, you can't fit even a small nos, and this is with AWU5 no injector, no nos, no cap period, you are not going to survive in pvp not to mention rage heavy assaults make your cap recharge even worse... ya good luck shield tanking folks -27.5% cap recharge per launcher.. so yes a drake needs an injector too, ok this ship is flat out broke sorry. 3 PDUs? RCU? Gank or tank? Shield tanks aren't meant to run permanently and you probably aren't best served by trying to make them do so? Smaller shield booster? Afterburner? Use T1 ammo? Fit different launchers? Again, TRADE OFFS.
Vladimir Tinakin Caldari Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:31:00 - [168] If you have to fill the lows with grid buffs to fit the ship, you remove the possibility of adding damage buffs like BCUs--on a missile ship. You lose flexibility. As for the "trade offs" mentioned, if you have to change the launcher type you change a LOT--HAMs are meant for close in, high(er) DPS combat. Heavy launchers (the only other real alternative) are way too slow to fire, and you don't really save that much grid with them anyway....so you're better off staying 60+km away so you can at least try to run. But then you can't web or scramble, so the ship becomes useless at PvP. Oh, and even with lows racked with PDS units, you'll still blow your cap wad in about 20-30 seconds. After the cap boost. Sacrificing lows to grid buffs would be a LOT more palatable if the ship got a decent RoF buff. Without that or the ability to fit BCUs and you get marginal PvE--and since the Ferox tanks a helluva lot better now, its not even good for that. ----------------------------------------------- Vice Adm Vladimir Tinakin Logistics CO Hadean Drive Yards
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:46:00 - [169] I still cant belive in such devastating nerf to drake, mainy becose it based on fact avery HAM user has maxed skill and fact HAMa are now universal all killing missile platform, but hello there is still normal heavy missiles rigt ? Simply fix that HAMs have both longest range amd highest DPS at short range. And add minimal range for missiles. After fixing HAMs you can return RoF bonus to drake. Drake is not problem HAMs are ! BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Yoshimako	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:00:00 - [170] First off, sorry i havent read all the replies.. Second, This is my opinion, others may have already said the same. Right Why the drake got nerfed.. easy. You wanted a gank ship. Great good for you. They gave you a tank and gank ship. In its origional form it was vastly over powered. Good damage and a tank to cream over. so they reduced the damage o your gank ship... DOH! Now it is just a tank ship, and a bloody good one. 6xHAM2's 3xinvul 2's 3xLSE 2's 1xBCU 2xPDU 1xSPR (any combo, this is what i tried) 21101 Shield hp's and about 60-70 HP/S regen at peak. resists were around 63% em all the rest were 70-80% That is sick. give that good damage and tell me that isnt overpowered. Some of you will say "good luck nailing someone down without a scram, Blah Blah Blah" Use tacklers, theres more then just 1v1. Now, you cannot tell me they didn't balance the ship with this nerf, they did. BUT they did it the wrong way. You wanted a Gank ship. They gave you a Tank ship. Thats all that needs to be change. But dont ask me how
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:18:00 - [171] Originally by: Ultimate Poison Originally by: Captain Raynor Hey at least we have the Raven, thank god because it's the only freaking good Caldari ship pretty much for general pvp combat usage. It's obvious you have never done any serious PVP. Ravens and crows are about the only ships I see in PvP from the caldari portfolio. Certainly they were the only ones which were much cop for solo/pair combat. And sometimes scorpions and BBs in fleet combat. For all those complaining about relative pricing, have a look some time how much it _actually_ costs to build a cerb. You'll find it's pretty comparable to a tier 2 BC :). Now I _was_ expecting a nerf bat to be applied to the Drake and Hurricane. The were overpowered. Unfortunately I _really_ think this is too far in the other direction. Losing a launcher is fine, after all the Raven only gets 6. But _please_ reconsider the kinetic damage bonus. (And on the Caracal and Kestrel too whilst you're at it). I dislike it because it just makes no sense that one type of ammo 'just does' more damage than another. And yes, this goes for drones and EM missile damage bonuses too. 5% RoF is what made the Drake a ship I was actually thinking of training up. Not the resists. Not the 7 launchers. And not the cool model (although that helped too). Hell, 5 launcher slots (like the ferox ) and a RoF bonus would be preferable to 6 + kinetic bonus. Oh well, BC 5 was calling me, and tempting me away from my dread/interdictor training. Not a problem any more ;)
Pfrundpaechter	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:37:00 - [172] <whine> i heavily anticipated the Drake as it was the first t1 caldari non-battleship, that could effectivily use missiles (6bays with RoF bonus would have been still great), and even be affordable to replace for pvp combat. now you killed it before it was even released caracal = handkerchief cerb = rather useless kin dmg bonus, helluva price ferox = lol, but ok, its a turretship raven is still a semi decent missile user. and its affordable nighthawk is probably the best missile user out there with the new bonus (which is RoF, but again with crap dmg bonus), but requires big balls to be taken into pvp combat. now we will just have another great tanking battlecruisers for gang mining in 0.0 :( i wonder if i should stick with the raven and enhance it with more level5 skills missilewise (risking that you would nerf my cruise msls too, anytime), or learn teh turrets and play the game the hard way :) </whine>
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:39:00 - [173] Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker i guess the HAC owners union got its way. Word Thx CCP I really, really, really hope invention will work. exactly and thats all there is to it Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:45:00 - [174] Originally by: Captain Raynor Perhaps, and the Drake is far far far far ..... far far far worse than the Harbinger. Omens issue is mostly with fittings, is it not? Fittings are a big part of it, but it's not only that. Let's say just imagine the caracal with 4 launchers and, should it want to fit 4 heavy missile launchers, only being able to fit a frigate sized tank. And, of cource, not being able to fit any EW modules to make up for this. And, while I agree that changing the ROF bonus was a bit too much the drake is still not that bad - it has compared to the other BCs an insane tank. Personally I would give it back it's ROF bonus, but nerf it's shield recharge significantly so it won't be able to mount the passive shieldtank of doomÖ as it can ATM.
Svavz Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:54:00 - [175] didnt do much dmg? lol i was doing 200 every second.... and i have crap extra missile skills like bombardment and that Biggest black and death metal fan in iceland
Sean Dillon Caldari Snakes in a Pod	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:56:00 - [176] I pvped a 1 on 1 battle with a myriodon BC. I could NOT go trough his armour. I had 22k shield 2 t2 invull fields. By the time he went through my shields, and that took him alot of time, his armour was still barely scrathed. The drake as it is now absolutely SUCKS for pvp. For pvE it has an awesome tank, but I would rather see the drake as a better PVP ship as the ferox is already good enough to PvE in.
Uggster Caldari Never'where	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:04:00 - [177] Caldari ships have always sucked at PvE, look at the Raven for example; you almost never see them ratting. At least now we will be able to go out and earn enough money for a crust or 2. YAY to the new caldari PvE baby _______________________________________________ Sig removed as inappropriate- Tirg Story of my life that one :(
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:24:00 - [178] Originally by: Uggster Caldari ships have always sucked at PvE, look at the Raven for example; you almost never see them ratting. At least now we will be able to go out and earn enough money for a crust or 2. YAY to the new caldari PvE baby Agreed, I was really getting annoyed at all these other races with their great PvE ships, and thinking to myself that Caldari clearly have so many good solo PvP options that what they could _really_ do with is a PvE boat, just a bit down from battleships. I mean kinetic damage is just so totally awesome, I can pwn guristas all day with it.
Thecle Vifargent GandY Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:30:00 - [179] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Uggster Caldari ships have always sucked at PvE, look at the Raven for example; you almost never see them ratting. At least now we will be able to go out and earn enough money for a crust or 2. YAY to the new caldari PvE baby Agreed, I was really getting annoyed at all these other races with their great PvE ships, and thinking to myself that Caldari clearly have so many good solo PvP options that what they could _really_ do with is a PvE boat, just a bit down from battleships. I mean kinetic damage is just so totally awesome, I can pwn guristas all day with it. QFT : I was affraid we finally got a PVP ship But i am now happy to have nothing else than good old PVE ship with the drake, so i wont spend time trying to solo a bit or doing fool things like does every PVP pilots ! Yarr ! thanks ccp for this new carebear overpowered ship I can return missionning quietly.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:37:00 - [180] Quote: Now it is just a tank ship, and a bloody good one. 6xHAM2's 3xinvul 2's 3xLSE 2's 1xBCU 2xPDU 1xSPR Do you realize that with this setup witch T2 ammo loaded capacitor drops constantly to zero or yor speed is reduced by 30% Sorry if it is already reported bug. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
K1773R Caldari Back Home In Time For Tea And Medals The Volition Cult	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:22:00 - [181] Yet another unborn pvp ship, nice going turdford, lets get this unbalanced game even more unbalanced, who wants to pay 500mil for a decent caldari pvp ship?? guess this game is only for the carebears who farm isk. This is supposed to be a pvp based game as well as being mining, trading and missioning, not seeing it, only pvp in this game is consentual pvp. "id like to be a carebear in empire and not have to worrie about anything touching me, my HP's have increased i can warp to "0" when docking or going to gates, if i go to missions in dead space no1 can find me, poor bastards who war decced me are gonna have to pay their bills and see me laughing at them" yay for a game that is getting no different than pure NPC, just get it overwith and cut out the pvp for good u know u want too. just leave a chat room so we can still talk to each other. oh wait well just use msn and imagine were playing together /me rants oh well heres for hoping they wake up and do something about the stoooopid bonuses and other crap. LONG LIVE PVP!! ----------------------------------------------- I don't think i sould be shot for selling pot, it's just my little way of saying hi(gh)
schemering Shibari Mure	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:50:00 - [182] Took it for a few spins before and after the nerf. I can live with the ROF nerf (2.88 with 4 BCU II's was a tad much, TBH ), but the Kinetic bonus... what good is that? And missing a launcher too? Now the Drake only has one launcher more than the Ferox, while it's supposed to be a missile BC vs. the Ferox being a rail BC? That doesn't make sense... Please, trade the Kinetic bonus back for the 7th launcher. Give it an agility bonus for all I care, but this is a missed opportunity.
Yoshimako	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:56:00 - [183] Originally by: Aki Yamato Quote: Now it is just a tank ship, and a bloody good one. 6xHAM2's 3xinvul 2's 3xLSE 2's 1xBCU 2xPDU 1xSPR Do you realize that with this setup witch T2 ammo loaded capacitor drops constantly to zero or yor speed is reduced by 30% Sorry if it is already reported bug. U seem to have misinterpretted me. Or maybe i didn't make it clear. Im all for the drake being a gank ship. I would love for this to be the case. But with its ability to field a tank like that it cannot be allowed to do good damage. Answer, Increase the damage again and nerf its ability to tank. How you would do this without totally gimping the ship is beyond me and so it seems, ccp aswell at this point. One way to do it would be to lower the PG further perhaps to prevent LSE's from being fitted. This only prevents the passive tanks though, it does nothing against boosters, amps and hardeners. Another would be to reduce the number of midslots (but that carries its own problems). You could reduce the shield HP's but again this isnt viable. You see the problem? I think they just did the first thing they could to balance it and that was to lower the damage. Ofcourse this stops it from being a gank ship and once again turns it into a tank ship. Something needs to be done but what that should be is another matter. ps. I am not in favor of making LSE's and 1600mm plates BS only due to fitting, because it will gimp alot of ships that use them well without being overpowered.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:57:00 - [184] Even unnerfed Drake was not so good. It has lower dps than Harbinger and Hurricane. Now it has dps of Caracal without Caracal agility and price of ten Caracals. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Flabida jaba	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:04:00 - [185] Im with you Captain Raynor Heavy assult missle =/= the Drake if they are overpowered then they are also overpowered on a caracal, a cerb, a blackbird a rook, perhaps even more on the cerb than anything else and as i understood the OP this thread is about the DRAKE!!!!! and the double nerf is too much in my humble opinion 6 launchers is a signifigant hit, but understandable the kinectic Dmg bonus in addition to the previous one is nothing short of putting the last nail in... tux has already said the devs are discussing sheild recharge rates on BC's toward the nerf angle and god forbid any single wanabe drake piolet actually wants to try solo pvp. Which can be done by any of the other races new BC's given the low slot tank option
Yoshimako	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:06:00 - [186] Originally by: Zixxa Even unnerfed Drake was not so good. It has lower dps than Harbinger and Hurricane. Now it has dps of Caracal without Caracal agility and price of ten Caracals. That comes down to the old missile disscussion though. Okay. Would you all be willing to fly a drake that could do big damage, BUT has a paper shield? Say if you had 7 launchers a ROF bonus and a damage bonus? Your tank would have to be pathetic for this to be balanced. Would you fly it?
Sean Dillon Caldari Snakes in a Pod	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:11:00 - [187] Originally by: Yoshimako Originally by: Zixxa Even unnerfed Drake was not so good. It has lower dps than Harbinger and Hurricane. Now it has dps of Caracal without Caracal agility and price of ten Caracals. That comes down to the old missile disscussion though. Okay. Would you all be willing to fly a drake that could do big damage, BUT has a paper shield? Say if you had 7 launchers a ROF bonus and a damage bonus? Your tank would have to be pathetic for this to be balanced. Would you fly it? The drake needs the same tank, but more dps. The drake can't match tier 2 BC of other races and therefore it sucks.
Ariel Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:45:00 - [188] I don't see why it was a problem that the Drake had more DPS than the Cerebus, as the Drake costs more to build (ignoring how much it costs to buy one) and is a larger ship class than the Cerebus, so it SHOULD be doing more damage.
Yumi Katanawe Caldari Demon Womb	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:54:00 - [189] You see, cerberus price in jita went down a few millions since Kali beta started. Some people got worried. Obviously the good of 20 is more important than the good of 20.000. Stay tuned! Next week you'll find out how it will take 480h of mission running to produce 1 T2 ship with invention. Same nerf-hour, same nerf-channel.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:56:00 - [190] Originally by: Ariel Dawn I don't see why it was a problem that the Drake had more DPS than the Cerebus, as the Drake costs more to build (ignoring how much it costs to buy one) and is a larger ship class than the Cerebus, so it SHOULD be doing more damage. while a BC should allways outclass the similar HAC no questions asked, the HAC Owners and Builders union has a much stronger voice and as such they got it nerfed. funny though how the dev team gives no warning or reason for the nerfs.
Dreamdancer Minmatar Ceryshen Strategic Analysis Vanu Space Command	Posted - 2006.11.17 15:13:00 - [191] From all the screaming I heard about how hard hitting the Drake was before I don't have an issue with the loss of one launcher. Will shed a few tears and raise a toast to it demise and move on. but... The RoF nerf is very poorly thought thru. The tank is the second most overpowered side. What should have been dropped was the resist bonus and a missile velocity bonus added instead. RoF and missile velocity bonuses. Make a true missile platform with a solid, but not overpowered tank or gank. If HAM's are still too powerful at that stage tweek them. We are recruiting!
Yumi Katanawe Caldari Demon Womb	Posted - 2006.11.17 15:17:00 - [192] Out of curiosity, how much dollars / month you'd earn with a cerberus bpo? Considering material cost, sell price, current isk/$ ratio. I mean, I'd be very worried lobbying if those cerb bpos paid my mortgage.
Tom Gunn Caldari Master Miners	Posted - 2006.11.17 15:18:00 - [193] Whats with the stupid kinetic missile bonus anyway? - a missile is a missile, it makes no sense to have a ship or launcher fire one missile (kinetic) with a bonus and not affect other types. The ROF bonus makes alot more sense.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.17 15:38:00 - [194] Originally by: Yoshimako Originally by: Zixxa Even unnerfed Drake was not so good. It has lower dps than Harbinger and Hurricane. Now it has dps of Caracal without Caracal agility and price of ten Caracals. That comes down to the old missile disscussion though. Okay. Would you all be willing to fly a drake that could do big damage, BUT has a paper shield? Say if you had 7 launchers a ROF bonus and a damage bonus? Your tank would have to be pathetic for this to be balanced. Would you fly it? Yes. Yes. Yes. I will fly tis ship. I have ate enough tanking with Ferox or with heavy tanked raven. I need smthing which can destroy enemy ship. So best Drake is 6 launchers + 5% damage(all types, or at least thermal + kinetic) and 5% ROF. And let 5% shield resistance goes to hell. I want to see at least ONE Caldari warship which could bring SAME DPS in regular fight as its rivals. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Santa Anna	Posted - 2006.11.17 15:49:00 - [195] What complete and total bull**. Yet another caldari ship that no one but clueless noobs will fly. I guess anything that disturbs the optimal setup of nos+drones in all situations must be destroyed. But, you know, good thing they added that kinetic damage bonus because having the lowest DPS and highest ammo cost of any weapon system was just too small of a tradeoff for being able to choose damage type. Seriously, who the ** would buy a drake when a Raven is a 4 days of training and 50M isk away?
BIGYIN Caldari F.S.O. Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:04:00 - [196] i don't see why all caldari ship with the kinetic missile damage bonus cant get it for all damage types. the gallente get a 10% to all drone damage. if the caldari cant get it then they should nerf all gallente drone ships so they only get the damage bones for there own drone type and i know its a bad idea but so is the bonus to one missile type and not the rest.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:12:00 - [197] Originally by: BIGYIN i don't see why all caldari ship with the kinetic missile damage bonus cant get it for all damage types. the gallente get a 10% to all drone damage. if the caldari cant get it then they should nerf all gallente drone ships so they only get the damage bones for there own drone type and i know its a bad idea but so is the bonus to one missile type and not the rest. Sure. In return I want the ability to shoot and destroy your missile launchers permanently. Deal? (and the Myrmidon +10% per level is a joke, since it can only use medium drones in non-suicide mode, making for crappy drone dps and even crappier turret damage. Even the nerfed Drake is miles beyond the Myrmidon, sigh) That said, I think this nerf to the Drake and the Hurricane went a bit too far. It should be pulled back a bit, and the Myrmidon boosted a bit.
BIGYIN Caldari F.S.O. Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:19:00 - [198] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: BIGYIN i don't see why all caldari ship with the kinetic missile damage bonus cant get it for all damage types. the gallente get a 10% to all drone damage. if the caldari cant get it then they should nerf all gallente drone ships so they only get the damage bones for there own drone type and i know its a bad idea but so is the bonus to one missile type and not the rest. Sure. In return I want the ability to shoot and destroy your missile launchers permanently. Deal? (and the Myrmidon +10% per level is a joke, since it can only use medium drones in non-suicide mode, making for crappy drone dps and even crappier turret damage. Even the nerfed Drake is miles beyond the Myrmidon, sigh) That said, I think this nerf to the Drake and the Hurricane went a bit too far. It should be pulled back a bit, and the Myrmidon boosted a bit. it was not just the bonuses for the BC i was talking about i was talking about all ships with the missile bonus and all with the drone bonus.
Ariel Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:22:00 - [199] Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 17/11/2006 16:24:47 Edited by: Ariel Dawn on 17/11/2006 16:23:38 Originally by: Yumi Katanawe Out of curiosity, how much dollars / month you'd earn with a cerberus bpo? Considering material cost, sell price, current isk/$ ratio. I mean, I'd be very worried lobbying if those cerb bpos paid my mortgage. A Cerberus costs 22-23m to make at current market prices. Why does the Drake, costing 60% more to produce and being a battlecruiser, have an inferior tank and damage output to a cheaper and smaller ship? I realise comparing T1 v T2 isn't the greatest idea, but both ships are set up to be missileboats. The Cerberus also has the added advantages small sig and mobility due to being a cruiser. If you feel that the Drake has to be this way, please crush the Cerberus with your nerfhammer to knock it into line. A 35m missileboat should not be horribly out-missiled and out-tanked by a 22m one..
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:31:00 - [200] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 17/11/2006 16:31:34 Originally by: BIGYIN it was not just the bonuses for the BC i was talking about i was talking about all ships with the missile bonus and all with the drone bonus. The drone boats (mostly) get a damage boost to all drone types, yes. My point is that this versatility is balanced by the fact that drones are killable (often easily), and also switching damage types with drones is very hard in practice -- you simply don't have the drone space to carry full sets of all types. In addition, once you launch your drones you can't (in practice) usually recall them and launch a new set unless you're fighting at point-blank range -- they take so long to travel you'll be dead by the time you get the second group out. So while there is some versatility, it's a lot less than you have with missiles. Yes, the 10 sec missile reload time sucks, but believe me drone switching sucks way, way more. So the limitation of bonus to one damage type vs drone general bonus is balanced by the much better versatility of missiles (and the fact that your firepower can't be destroyed), like drones can. They are very different weapons, of course. Just trying to provide some perspective here from a drone-use viewpoint. And yes, I use missiles too quite a bit, I know how they work. Btw, the ship bonus isn't +10% for all Gallente drone ships, the Ishtar actually only has +5% damage bonus (item description is wrong) and the Eos has no bonus at all.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:41:00 - [201] Originally by: BIGYIN it was not just the bonuses for the BC i was talking about i was talking about all ships with the missile bonus and all with the drone bonus. Thats already build in in the drones. Caldari missiles: 100% dps with kinetic 80% dps with other damage types Drones: 100% dps with thermal ones 90% dps with kinetic ones 80% dps with explosive ones 70% dps with EM ones You see a pattern there?
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:45:00 - [202] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: BIGYIN it was not just the bonuses for the BC i was talking about i was talking about all ships with the missile bonus and all with the drone bonus. Thats already build in in the drones. Caldari missiles: 100% dps with kinetic 80% dps with other damage types Drones: 100% dps with thermal ones 90% dps with kinetic ones 80% dps with explosive ones 70% dps with EM ones You see a pattern there? Yes, we see. Thermal is best all-around damage type. Kinetic the worst one. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Benedict Carol	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:51:00 - [203] Quote: The drake needs the same tank, but more dps. The drake can't match tier 2 BC of other races and therefore it sucks. Now, see, this is interesting. One of the things that I see in these threads, over and over again, is the notion that ships of the same class must be -equal- across races. As a Caldari pilot, I'd be just fine with some ships out classing others if there were balances in the overall -fleet-. Instead of focusing (admittedly the thread is about the new ship) on specific ship comparisons, balance needs to be brought to the fleets themselves. I don't know the answers to -how- to accomplish that, but it's pretty amusing that we have Amarr players who wouldn't dare fit lasers for PVP and Caldari who fly only Ravens. In short, this entire issue is simply a symptom of a bigger problem.
Jaxtet Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.17 17:10:00 - [204] - It's great to have a life outside of a video game, ain't it?«
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.11.17 17:28:00 - [205] -1 missle launcher? Fine I can live with that. 5% ROF changed to 5% "bonus" Kinetic damage? What'd you do? Take the padding off the bat before you beat the **it out of it? Why don't we just say castration instead of nerf as this ship has no reason to be flown. For once I would like to be able to PvP in something Caldari that wasn't t2 or a BS. As for the 7 launcher Caracal with no tank to speaks of? In a heartbeat. ------------------ CEO of TKI
baru Pel	Posted - 2006.11.17 17:52:00 - [206] Warning: Massive flame bait. Just answering the question Originally by: Yumi Katanawe Out of curiosity, how much dollars / month you'd earn with a cerberus bpo? Considering material cost, sell price, current isk/$ ratio. I mean, I'd be very worried lobbying if those cerb bpos paid my mortgage. Method. Cerb selling for 250mil isk. construction cost 25mil isk. leaves 225mil isk. 1 cerb a day produced 30 cerbs a month. 6,750 mil isk/month timecode method: GTC sells for $15 30 GTC goes on the form for 180mil isk 6,750mil isk./ 180mil = 37.5 gtc cards/month 37.5 Gtc$15 = $562.50 per month On-line auction method. 200mil isk = aprox $20 6750/200 = 33.75 33.75$20 = $675 month Online sale of actual cerb (2 listed on popular auction site for ave. $47 ) 30 * $47 = $1410 per month. Note: not advocating anything, just running some numbers is all. btw: the last option will pay my morgatge, and car payment.
Sakura Yoshimitsu	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:02:00 - [207] I live on about 600/mo. Cool :) Nerf bad!
Cyberus	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:16:00 - [208] what a hell is wrong with you ppl (ccp)? Ok i'm agree with -1 launshers thats was a bit to much ( did tested by me self ) but change rof for AGAIN stupid kenetic damage is wrong realy wrong. Actualy all this rasial caldari +5% kenetic damage is so stupid!!! I just cant and wont understand how is god**** same missels what coming out same production line with same amount of explosions onboard can have difrent damage hit points?? SILLY very silly. Just drop all this stupid kenetic damages on caldari ships. add better rof bonus, because in my opinion if ya ship able to do more damage bonus then it must be at all damages types
Sakura Yoshimitsu	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:02:00 - [209] Live with 5 friends in a house we all rented. Pretty big too..
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:05:00 - [210] Originally by: Captain Raynor CCP sorry guys, but you pretty much killed this ship. Okay dropping a launcher sure, maybe justified the new tier2 battlecruisers did seem a tad overgunned but come on, dropping the rate of fire bonus for kinetic missile damage? The Drake wasn't a big time DPS ship to begin with now it's just pathetic. Pretty sure when people start whipping up graphs of the tier2 battlecruisers the Drake is going to look rather sad.. might as well use a Caracal. What a joke. Drake should have kept its ROF bonus.. the -1 turret for hurricane and -1 launcher for drake, okay that is probably reasonable. The Harbinger looks awful good now, in not amazingly good compared to the rest now. No wonder buddy, TiME AND TIME AGAIN... CCP Gives in to GALLENTE Whiners on forums, and Shun a good ship in the hole. way to go with Kali.. i don't need new pictures of ships and their info, i need to actually fly something useful!!! Thanks for using the whining .05% of EvE population to "Balance" the ships in game!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:10:00 - [211] Originally by: Patch86 Drake was overpowered, and did need rebalancing. I hope they havn't taken it too far, though. But of course, thanks for Whining, and YES, THEY have taken it TOO far.. just as your whining...
Aequitas Veritas TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:11:00 - [212] Im sure this will get changed again as it was way overdone. The Drake wasnt that horrible either, it was just too good at ganking and tanking at the same time. So removing some powergrid so it couldnt fit extenders while fitting bcu's might have been sufficient. Or let it keep its tank and remove one launcher. The kinetic damage only bonus no ship should suffer, its plain horrible for pvp... Caldari's actually do other things than PvE. Messing up this ship removed the only reason that true caldari spec'ed players had anything to look forward to in Kali. The Rokh is made for players flying Gallente ships not Caldari. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Cyberus	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:19:00 - [213] I want my ROF back. period!!!!!!11
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:21:00 - [214] I think the major, major issue is that us Caldari are tired of ships with tank. We got lots of those. We want one ship that can gank in some way that isn't t2 or a Bs or ewar. We just want to ba able to fire a crap load of missles and **** the tank! ------------------ CEO of TKI
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:23:00 - [215] Originally by: Supernova 5000 im pure caldari and i can say it needed the nerf it was pretty boring not being brought down to armor fighting anything around my size. I want some exciting in life not... "ohh look its another BC that won't absolutly do jack to me let me press F1-F8 and go to the kitchen n get something to drink." You want some excitement? go fight a T2 precise cruise Raven with a crow, or maybe this exciting new BC..
Spiderweb Caldari Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:26:00 - [216] I lost absolutely all excitement for Kali. And to think that I convinced two of my friends to start playing because of Kali ... I feel like a liar. The drake nerf isnt just a nerf of a BC. Its alot more, the least of all being insulting to the intelligence of any non-brain dead EVE caldari player. So, we get a gallente ship, a Ferox MK II for noobs, and what else? ah right, nothing else ... ----------------------------------------------- "Light, in the Darkest of Hours..."
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:27:00 - [217] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Dixon I'd settle for a RoF bonus but remove the resist bonus for a flight time bonus so the ship can actually use HAMs. Wait, you want a range bonus on the missile equivalent of blasters? What part of that seems sensible? HAMs are meant to be close range weapons, so a range bonus wou;ld most deffinatly not tbe the direction to go. No parts of your whiney posts seemed sensible to anyone but your whining got you stuff, let people whine here for a bit so at least the new BC for Caldari can be more than a collector's item for view in stations...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:29:00 - [218] This nerf is b/c of the stupid gallente, I say kill them all... and then get their stuff, and instead of selling it make minerals to make more caldari ships !!!
Teego	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:29:00 - [219] "Of the meticulous craftsmanship the Caldari are renowned for, the Drake was born. It was found beneath such a ship to rely on anything other than the time-honoured combat tradition of missile fire, while the inclusion of sufficient CPU capabilities for decent electronic warfare goes without saying." That really doesn't fit anymore. So, if we aren't going to buff the ship attributes, can we at least continue the trend and give it a more accurate description? How about: "Caldari engineers opted to forego innovation in the development of their most recent lateral development, the Drake. Void of any features which would afford the Drake an opportunity to participate in fleet combat, its design is specific to the eradication of Guristas pirates within the Caldari State. The combination of mediocre damage capabilities and systems specialized toward the enhancement of kinetic missile damage require pilots looking for some versatility to look elsewhere for their battlecruiser needs."
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:33:00 - [220] Originally by: Teego "Of the meticulous craftsmanship the Caldari are renowned for, the Drake was born. It was found beneath such a ship to rely on anything other than the time-honoured combat tradition of missile fire, while the inclusion of sufficient CPU capabilities for decent electronic warfare goes without saying." That really doesn't fit anymore. So, if we aren't going to buff the ship attributes, can we at least continue the trend and give it a more accurate description? How about: "Caldari engineers opted to forego innovation in the development of their most recent lateral development, the Drake. Void of any features which would afford the Drake an opportunity to participate in fleet combat, its design is specific to the eradication of Guristas pirates within the Caldari State. The combination of mediocre damage capabilities and systems specialized toward the enhancement of kinetic missile damage require pilots looking for some versatility to look elsewhere for their battlecruiser needs." Good one m8, maybe we can change the ship's info to now say: Neither Ishukone nor Kaalakiota bothered with a crappy design of a ship this looked out to be, so instead they outsourced the project to random hacks... Come see the new freak of Caldari universe, the useless crippled wonder of the universe. Caldari BC bonus> price goes up by 5 mil every week. Special bonus> fun of owning this ship diminishes progressively as soon as you try to use it for anything but an ornament.
Aequitas Veritas TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:33:00 - [221] Gallente seems to have gotten two battleships this round as well. A long range ship of Caldari design and a new blasterboat designed by themselves :p "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:36:00 - [222] Originally by: Aequitas Veritas Gallente seems to have gotten two battleships this round as well. A long range ship of Caldari design and a new blasterboat designed by themselves :p Can't be more right on this one. After all everyone (gallente) was bashing on this ship as being the oh so Caldari powerful and cool weapon using the pretext to nerf the new BC, when in fact they got that Battleship. In order for a caldari pilot to use it they have to retrain the whole line of gunnery skills, while a gallente pilot needs to simply train Caldari BC to lvl 3-4 to be max effective..
Jaxtet Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:52:00 - [223] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Aequitas Veritas Gallente seems to have gotten two battleships this round as well. A long range ship of Caldari design and a new blasterboat designed by themselves :p Can't be more right on this one. After all everyone (gallente) was bashing on this ship as being the oh so Caldari powerful and cool weapon using the pretext to nerf the new BC, when in fact they got that Battleship. In order for a caldari pilot to use it they have to retrain the whole line of gunnery skills, while a gallente pilot needs to simply train Caldari BC to lvl 3-4 to be max effective.. You mean Caldari BS right? Not BC? I thought the Rohk was a BS. You are forgetting though that Caldari ships specialize in shield tanking. Gallente ships specialize in armor tanking. So its not quite that easy. To switch would mean Gallente would need to train up the whole line of shield tanking skills. Sorry but your point that its easy for a Gallente to switch is pretty much moot when you take into account the other skills needed. Sure they Gallente could fire the guns and fit the ship but that'd be about it :) - It's great to have a life outside of a video game, ain't it?«
Aequitas Veritas TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.17 20:15:00 - [224] Originally by: Jaxtet You mean Caldari BS right? Not BC? I thought the Rohk was a BS. You are forgetting though that Caldari ships specialize in shield tanking. Gallente ships specialize in armor tanking. So its not quite that easy. To switch would mean Gallente would need to train up the whole line of shield tanking skills. Sorry but your point that its easy for a Gallente to switch is pretty much moot when you take into account the other skills needed. Sure they Gallente could fire the guns and fit the ship but that'd be about it :) Oh Boho... you need like what? a week to train up to use shield extenders and t2 hardeners? "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Jaxtet Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.17 20:23:00 - [225] Edited by: Jaxtet on 17/11/2006 20:23:34 Thanks, that's my point exactly, you can't just jump into one. - It's great to have a life outside of a video game, ain't it?«
Dadanen1	Posted - 2006.11.17 20:48:00 - [226] Aequitas, the rokh is a rail ship, and i for one am glad i have something better then the ** moa and ferox, However thats a bit off topic here. But i for one believe that ccp pretty much killed off the missle side of caldari, hell why not just remove missles from the game in its entirety,not like they are going to be any good for anything but pve, and if you keep nerfing the ** out of them even i will doubt that they would even be good for that
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium Kurai Komichi	Posted - 2006.11.17 21:04:00 - [227] What is the DPS of the Drake with a full rack of T2 HAM's and T2 close range heavy assaults? --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Infar Dantenon Tempt Fate	Posted - 2006.11.17 21:11:00 - [228] i hate being Caldari
Evelgrivion Cohort. Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.11.17 21:27:00 - [229] The Drake was a beautiful ship. On top of being the most attractive boat the Caldari have gotten in a long time, it finally did what the battlecruiser should have done from the beginning; served as a solid middle ground between the cruiser and tier one (or in the caldari's case, tier 2) battleship. The Drake was amazingly powerful when it had heavy assault missiles, and packed quite a whollup with T2 heavy missiles as well. But now, with the current status of the Drake, it is exactly what other people consider it: A level 2 and easy level 3 mission man ship. I agree the Drake was somewhat overpowered. However, removing BOTH the seventh heavy launcher and the rate of fire bonus reduced it to a merely tanking battlecruiser that dishes out only slightly more damage than a caracal. Why cant the Caldari just have a PVP ship that doesnt suck, CCP? The Kinetic damage bonus is genuinely all but worthless outside of PVE »\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/ Its Cohort. with a C.
Mirt T	Posted - 2006.11.17 21:41:00 - [230] on the test server anyone could get the t2 ammo its not gonna be that common on tq. but lets ignore that, the 7 launchers might have been a bit over. However Caldari ships should have a missile rof bonus. The backstory clames that the Caldari have a higher tec level then the gallente and that the caldari are missile specialists. looking at this it would make sence that caldari ships have a rof bonus.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 22:06:00 - [231] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Aequitas Veritas Gallente seems to have gotten two battleships this round as well. A long range ship of Caldari design and a new blasterboat designed by themselves :p Can't be more right on this one. After all everyone (gallente) was bashing on this ship as being the oh so Caldari powerful and cool weapon using the pretext to nerf the new BC, when in fact they got that Battleship. In order for a caldari pilot to use it they have to retrain the whole line of gunnery skills, while a gallente pilot needs to simply train Caldari BC to lvl 3-4 to be max effective.. It's nobody's fault but your own that you never bothered to train your racial weapons. Do you see Gallente pilots only getting drone skillpoints? Nope. There's a reason the average Caldari pilot is looked at as an idiot.
Protunia Gallente Horadrim	Posted - 2006.11.17 22:17:00 - [232] As much smack talking as you guys do I'd nerf tyhe SOB's again just for the hell of it ;) you'll never learn. good luck getting anything back btw. No diplomacy = no buffs. My Character Stats
Dekein No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.17 22:39:00 - [233] Edited by: Dekein on 17/11/2006 22:42:07 The real problem, which the HP buff is magnifying, is how easy it is to fit oversized plate and extenders. There needs to be some sanity injected into both modules so that the realistic sized ones are being mounted on the ships they are designed for. Frigates/destroyers should not be mounting medium extenders or 400mm plates. Cruisers/BCs should not be mounting large extenders or 1600mm plates. If some adjustments to the Hp values of the modules need to be done along with adding the restrictions for size, so be it. Until then, balance will be very hard to achieve as some setups/ships will allow tanks with 3-4 times the hitpoints of other ships, while not sacrificing 3-4 times the damage output. They could look at the relative fitting costs of close and long range weapons too, but as long as the HP boosting modules were restricted, it wouldn't do you a whole ton of good to fit low grid weapons to try to overtank the ship. I know someone will cry about versatility. But really, why on earth would you not sacrifice 20% DPS for 300% more tank? Outside of a fleet or pure gank squad, it would be so stupid not to that everyone with a clue would be doing it(is doing it). Edit: Oh yeah, back to the current whine. Drop the kinetic bonusand give it a 4% per level ROF. Cerb will still slightly outdamage it with kinetics, but the Drake will have more damage flexibility, compared to the Cerbs overall better flexibility. _____________________
Albrecht Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.11.18 06:07:00 - [234] Edited by: Albrecht Wassenar on 18/11/2006 06:09:29 I am so disappointed. For once there was a ship on the horizon that was going to be effective in PvP and be a strong Caldari ship for all the appropriate reasons according to the PF (thats prime fiction for you non-RPr's). While I can see why the Drake was overpowered compared to many of its comteporary BCs of other races, and while it needed to be toned down, this is too much by far. I have said it before and I will say it again. I think the concept of +5% Kin dmg bonus per level is beyond stupid. No other race is faced with such a problem. If 7 launchers and the RoF bonus are too much, then there are many other options to deal with this problem. For one there are at least four (4) other percentile in their you can play with for the RoF, or you can drop one (1) of the launcher hard points. If something is overpowered, tone it down a bit, and then if it is still overpowered continue until parity is achieved. I am 100% for a level playing field for everyone in this game. If that means taking a hit on the things I use, great, but what I am seeing is this game getting increasingly more and more out of balance in many, many ways (not just Drake). I seriously worry for the future of this game. I am seeing those who are loudest on the forums beginning to control the game instead of the devs, in an effort to get and keep new subscribers by placating them. I dont think its a good idea to let someone who has little to no experience be calling the shots. Not that new players cant think of creative ways to deal with problems too, but I really think that only players who have the best interests of the game in mind should be the one at the wheel. If a player can and repeatedly show objectivity in their opinions on aspects of the game as well as the ability to think more than 5 minuets into the future and beyond their own personal agenda, then their opinions should be weighted to reflect their objective reasoning. If you think I am full of it, go play World War II Online. That is what happens to a game when the developers only listen to what the general, and usually uneducated, masses have to say, which is a downright shame for a game with the unique scope like that (sound familiar). I want to see this game succeed as there is no other with as much unique potential as this one but if this is shape of things to come, we are all screwed. ------------------------------------- Join "TKI-net"/"Directivenet" for more information
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.18 07:06:00 - [235] How many of you doing the whining have actually flown the ship post-nerf? I have. I flew it tonight and wiped the floor with a hurricane, a brutix, a harbinger and a deimos. And I did it using only kinetic javelin assault missiles. And yes, I scrambled my targets.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.18 07:48:00 - [236] Originally by: Risien Drogonne How many of you doing the whining have actually flown the ship post-nerf? I have. I flew it tonight and wiped the floor with a hurricane, a brutix, a harbinger and a deimos. And I did it using only kinetic javelin assault missiles. And yes, I scrambled my targets. Obviously you vin againts folks witch were not smart enought to fit hardeners. This kind of post it totalu irellevant and annoying. Add skill and ship setups to make your post relevant. PS. Im still convinced its HAM problem, try to make some testing with heavy missiles... BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.18 08:03:00 - [237] Originally by: Aki Yamato Obviously you vin againts folks witch were not smart enought to fit hardeners. This kind of post it totalu irellevant and annoying. Add skill and ship setups to make your post relevant. PS. Im still convinced its HAM problem, try to make some testing with heavy missiles... How much have YOU flown it since the nerf? I bet not at all.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.18 08:18:00 - [238] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Aki Yamato Obviously you vin againts folks witch were not smart enought to fit hardeners. This kind of post it totalu irellevant and annoying. Add skill and ship setups to make your post relevant. PS. Im still convinced its HAM problem, try to make some testing with heavy missiles... How much have YOU flown it since the nerf? I bet not at all. 0.5 flight hour with HAMS 1 flight hour with HM Now its your turn, ship setups and skills of foes you defeated (im curious about their weapon spec skill..) please.. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.18 08:46:00 - [239] The problem is that the drakes tank was and still is rediciously strong. And this isn't mainly because the resistance bonus. Thats only a 33% boost. That the ferox can mount an good passive tank on TQ is no secret. On test the drake has 2.1 times the shield, but the same shield recharge rate. Which is compared to it an 110% boost. If you want to increase the dps of the drake you have to nerf its shield recharge rate.
Lienzo	Posted - 2006.11.18 09:04:00 - [240] I feel they shoulda kept the same number of launchers, and swapped the RoF for the Kinetic bonus. That would make the most sense, because it's harder to resent a specialized ship. The DPS loss, however, means a bow to the T2 community, which is still dumb in a grind-based game.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.18 09:48:00 - [241] Here is my reasoning why the kinetic bonus of the Drake is absolute rubbish : The existance of the caracal and ferox ( because of the 5 launchers ) make a second missile battlecruiser a hard ship to create. Why? Lets look at the Caracal. 5 launchers with a kinetic and velocity bonus. The normalized DPS at standard missile ranges is equal to a ferox when not using kinetic missiles. The tank on the ferox is already strong and it can also be versatile and use rails that would recieve a bonus. What is wrong with this picture? That the greatest benefit of the Drake is just a tier level higher on tank and 1 extra launcher point and mid over the ferox. When using kinetic missiles it has only 1 missile advantage in DPS over the Caracal. When the Caracal uses kinetic and the Drake doesn't the DPS gap between them shrinks. The tank is then what has to justify it being over 5x the cost. For 15mil less the ferox is also capable of competing with the Drake when not using kinetic missiles. What we see here is that the kinetic bonus is a handicap to the Drake. There is nothing to really distinguish the ship. It is the time tested apoc vs geddon now it caldari clothing. Similar happenings at the Minmatar level too. Do the 2 extra guns justify the cost difference between the rupture and the hurricane? Does the 1 turret and damage bonus justify the 15mil difference between the Cyclone and Hurricane? Lets not forget the loss of 1 midslot. Is the worth of these ships lying in the eye of the beholder, literally because of their ship models, or the actual statistical viability of them on the battlefield. The Drake and the Hurricane are uninspiring with the adjustments. The Drake is hurt more than the hurricane for sure and the Kinetic bonus is a slap in the face to all missile users. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.18 09:57:00 - [242] Originally by: Spiderweb I lost absolutely all excitement for Kali. And to think that I convinced two of my friends to start playing because of Kali ... I feel like a liar. The drake nerf isnt just a nerf of a BC. Its alot more, the least of all being insulting to the intelligence of any non-brain dead EVE caldari player. So, we get a gallente ship, a Ferox MK II for noobs, and what else? ah right, nothing else ... The 2 new ship classes are being handled quite poorly. However, Kali adds new realms to EVE that are very exciting. The biggest let down in EVE is revolving around Tux, or a higher up, that just won't accept the players logical suggestions on how to improve the ships for the roles the DEVs themselves gave the ships. The Maelstrom which is utter garbage, the Abaddon when using its bonuses to the fullest, the Drake, the hurricane ( which is now effectivly a mini-tempest ), the Drake which is a total joke now, and the inability to make the right decision to differentiate the hyperion from the mega ( the tracking bonus of the mega MUST go ) all really make a lot of people upset since piloting is to a lot of people what EVE is about. However, there are many aspects of EVE that are going to be a blast and old ships like them or hate them will be new beasts with rigs and boosters. Its just a shame that Tux seemingly can't or won't do the right thing. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 12:45:00 - [243] Caldari (n) 1. Of or belonging to the race of Caldari Etymology: A warlike race, the name seemd to derive from the hand to hand combat training every Caldari youth was subjected to. Deriving from a phrase in the ancient galactic tongue; "Cal d'ar 'ih". "Cal" Is the invective form of the verb "Callar", meaning to hit or to strike, and the "Ar" was an ancient training weapon, padded in foam to prevent injury. The subjunctive "'ih" means "repeatedly" or "again" The phrase, literally translated, means "Hit me with your padded weapon again". ANYONE who didn't see this coming, hasn't played EVE long enough. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 17:49:00 - [244] Originally by: Patch86 Drake was overpowered, and did need rebalancing. I hope they havn't taken it too far, though. Drop the resists bonus (which had no business being on a 'gank bc', and make it missile velocity like the Raven, problem solved. You now do 25% more damage to the Drake. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 17:52:00 - [245] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Dixon I'd settle for a RoF bonus but remove the resist bonus for a flight time bonus so the ship can actually use HAMs. Wait, you want a range bonus on the missile equivalent of blasters? What part of that seems sensible? Last time I checked, the Merlin, Moa, Eagle, Harpy, Ferox and Rokh could all fit blasters, and they have range bonuses. Yes, Caldari love range. And incase you've forgotten, there are these things called heavy missiles, some people will still use them, and extra range on them isn't a bad thing. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.11.18 17:55:00 - [246] Originally by: Grey Area Caldari (n) 1. Of or belonging to the race of Caldari good stuff That's priceless grey
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:10:00 - [247] Originally by: MOS DEF You guys ask for ownageboats. If the hurricane and drake would'`ve stayed as they were they might as well have deleted the cyclone and ferox because they would be pointless. It's not the goal of tier 2 BC to render the tier 1 one useless. How would the Drake make the Ferox useless? Last time i checked, the drake wasn't a longrange railgun boat. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:23:00 - [248] Edited by: Imode on 18/11/2006 18:27:01 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: MOS DEF You guys ask for ownageboats. If the hurricane and drake would'`ve stayed as they were they might as well have deleted the cyclone and ferox because they would be pointless. It's not the goal of tier 2 BC to render the tier 1 one useless. How would the Drake make the Ferox useless? Last time i checked, the drake wasn't a longrange railgun boat. Which is outperformed by an Eagle. It still does a decent job as a sniper boat, with optimal I think out past 150km (pre nerf), but up close it performs best as a missile boat with a very hard tank. Imo, removing launchers from the Ferox and not gimping the drake is the way to go. moa - 4 turrets eagle - 5 ferox - 6 vulture - 7 rokh - 8 Am I alone thinking that a progression like that makes total sense? The Drake, I'm not sure. I don't think anything was really wrong with the Drake except for the shield bonus and that HAM's coupled with a ROF bonus and oodles of BCU II's are overpowered a tad. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:32:00 - [249] Originally by: Faricar Edited by: Faricar on 17/11/2006 08:11:56 SOLUTION Change the Bonuses to: 5% to shield resistance per skill level, 5% to Rate of Fire of heavy assault missiles If you restrict it to HAMs then people have less of a choice over missiles but still get then bonus if they are willing to sacrifice something... PROBLEM SOLVED Considering HAMs do about 25% more damage, base, than Heavy Missiles, all you would do is make it completely pointless to fit HAMLs on a Drake. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Faricar Caldari Knightmares Inc	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:35:00 - [250] I think the fact there are 9 pages on this thread, that basicly says how outraged everyone is, not just caldari!
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:35:00 - [251] Originally by: meppa Next i would like to see 10% drone damage on gallente to be changed 10% drone thermal damage. It was already done, and there was outcry on the forums, and it got changed in maybe a week. Hopefully it happens again for the gank BCs, which no longer gank. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:43:00 - [252] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Captain Raynor my stupid can't chase down and catch, scramble, web or be even be remotely mobile setup actually works on tranquility where the real pvp is MWD WEB SCRAM SHIELD BOOSTER INVULNERABILITY FIELD INVULNERABILITY FIELD DAMAGE CONTROL Is that so hard Jimmy boy? Try to understand that the setup you just listed can't even begin to compare with the 'omfg overpowered' passive tanking setups. Use that setup again a passive setup, see what his shields are at when you warp out on fire. Sadly, people don't realize the realistic setup like you listed, is nothing compared to the unrealistic setups currently on sisi. When people realize that, they might begint o see the light. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:46:00 - [253] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Captain Raynor ever look at the drakes grid? good luck fitting mwd and med nos on there with ham IIs, also good luck with cap, it will die fast, real fast you probably need injector, which also doesnt fit, good luck with shield tanking with 2 slots 5 slots. You keep forgetting rigs. You forget ships can't have 9 mids, and if those midslot rigs get onto TQ, you're not going to be able to fit 3 of them on a single ship. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:52:00 - [254] Originally by: Yoshimako Originally by: Zixxa Even unnerfed Drake was not so good. It has lower dps than Harbinger and Hurricane. Now it has dps of Caracal without Caracal agility and price of ten Caracals. That comes down to the old missile disscussion though. Okay. Would you all be willing to fly a drake that could do big damage, BUT has a paper shield? Say if you had 7 launchers a ROF bonus and a damage bonus? Your tank would have to be pathetic for this to be balanced. Would you fly it? If the Drake was 7 launchers, ROF bonus and missile velocity bonus I'd fly it without hesitation. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Faricar Caldari Knightmares Inc	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:54:00 - [255] I would fly it with 6 launchers, rof bonus, shield resist bonus
Jasai Kameron The Palladium Union	Posted - 2006.11.18 19:11:00 - [256] I'm sorry. I just really don't understand why people are saying again and again that kinetic damage is useless in PVP. It's one of the two mid-level tanked damage types. EM and explosive being the swing damage types - high in one defensive system (shields/armor), low in the other. When I fly my Dom I have to use thermal drones to get the most damage. This doesn't bother me at all. Thermal, like kinetic, is a good damage type. If anything, kinetic is marginally better against armor (the most common defense system) than thermal. I mean, would you honestly rather have EM missile damage, like the Amarr missile ships? If you think a kinetic damage is bad, and should be replaced with a rof bonus, then why aren't you calling for the same thing to be done with Amarr missile ships, who are EVEN MORE gimped by missile damage restriction? I'm not flaming. Maybe there is a good reason why kinetic damage is "useless" in PvP. I'm assuming that players would fit explosive missiles or a mix if it weren't for the kinetic damage bonus? As such, I do think the nerf has gone too far, because it has reduced the Drake's damage on two fronts when the tier 2 BCs were meant to be gank ships. The 25% damage bonus gives you less damage than a 25% rof bonus, as well as restricting damage type. I completely agree that the ship could do with a boost. But if the boost were to be to give it back it's launcher hardpoint and maintain that 25% kinetic damage bonus, would that really be so bad? Almost all other ships are limited in some respect as to the damage type they deal.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 19:21:00 - [257] Originally by: Imode Which is outperformed by an Eagle. It still does a decent job as a sniper boat, with optimal I think out past 150km (pre nerf), but up close it performs best as a missile boat with a very hard tank. Imo, removing launchers from the Ferox and not gimping the drake is the way to go. moa - 4 turrets eagle - 5 ferox - 6 vulture - 7 rokh - 8 Am I alone thinking that a progression like that makes total sense? The Drake, I'm not sure. I don't think anything was really wrong with the Drake except for the shield bonus and that HAM's coupled with a ROF bonus and oodles of BCU II's are overpowered a tad. 7 turrets on the vulture makes no sense, all the fleet commands have only 5 weapon hardpoints, because they can fit 3 gang mods. Going (without upping max number of highs): Merlin: 3/2 Harpy: Stays the same Moa: 5/2 Eagle: 5/2 or 6/1 Ferox: 7/3 Rokh: 8/4(could be 8/0 for all I care, it's a true railboat) While I don't think there's much of a change that the Ferox will get 7 turret slots, it'd be nice, but even a 6/3 layout would be nice, since right now, it's really not that hot DPS wise, whereas the other tier 1's are quite good. Plus you know something's not right when a railgun BC is used mainly as a missile boat. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.18 19:48:00 - [258] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Captain Raynor ever look at the drakes grid? good luck fitting mwd and med nos on there with ham IIs, also good luck with cap, it will die fast, real fast you probably need injector, which also doesnt fit, good luck with shield tanking with 2 slots 5 slots. You keep forgetting rigs. You forget ships can't have 9 mids, and if those midslot rigs get onto TQ, you're not going to be able to fit 3 of them on a single ship. I said nothing about midslot rigs.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.18 19:52:00 - [259] Those are prolly a fake anyways.
Pille Dufrais	Posted - 2006.11.18 20:00:00 - [260] Originally by: Faricar I think the fact there are 9 pages on this thread, that basicly says how outraged everyone is, not just caldari! ahahahahahaha There were over 100 pages on amarr before it got locked - does that mean 11 times the outrage was felt? In case you don't know, nothing was done - expect the same here. Unless ofc they up HP by 50% and give capless weapon users a boost, that would be much worse, oh wait ........
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 20:49:00 - [261] Originally by: Risien Drogonne I said nothing about midslot rigs. You're assuming the 3 rigs you're talking about will all fit, or be as effective as the mods they'll work in place of. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Hikaki Hephaestus Cosmonautical Laboratories	Posted - 2006.11.18 20:54:00 - [262] Edited by: Hikaki on 18/11/2006 20:55:59 Will people leave those **** midslot rigs alone? Every dev has said that not only they will NEVER make it on TQ, they should not had been available on SISI. Forget about them, they're as much of an issue as the "advanced hull upgrades" skill that's been in the SISI DB since the dawn of time. Let alone that fact that those rigs take 400 calibration, and all T1 ships have 300 or less
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.18 21:14:00 - [263] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Risien Drogonne I said nothing about midslot rigs. You're assuming the 3 rigs you're talking about will all fit, or be as effective as the mods they'll work in place of. I'm assuming nothing. I have them fitted right now on sisi.
Agrias Hellion	Posted - 2006.11.19 05:52:00 - [264] Erm why do peeps say certain races are whining? My dude is Gallente and I fly all but Minmatar. I want all the ships to be comparable in their specific roles, i.e missle boat, drone boat big tanky thing from hell. As for the HAC people, the battlecruiser was meant to be in the middle between cruiser and battleship. T2 ships are supposed to be more powerful in both offence and defence compared to the T1 ships they are based on. Not more powerful than classes of ships above them. Since the tier 2 battlecruisers are not command ships and not really in that niche why would the fact they outgun the T2 ships matter? CCP have the chance to add another variable to the game, another ship to fly, more variety. Blame the BPO system for the prices, blame the BPO owners for prices but don't nerf ships because of it! :(
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.19 06:14:00 - [265] I think that CCP should consider actually making the tier 2s into true gank ships. Give them all (except the myrmidon), 8 highslots, and the ability to fit 8 weapons (give a 7/4 layout to the minnies, and 200m3 dronebay to the myrmidon). Then take the current TQ armor/shields/hull for the tier 1 BCs, and make that the armor/shields/hull for the Tier 2 ships in Kali. Then make both bonuses offensive. missile ROF and missile velocity for Caldari. Drone damage and tracking for Gallente, energy ROF and cap size increase for amarr, proj rof and velocity for minmatar. You are then left with ships that have rather **ty, not-much-better-than-cruisers tanking, but Battleship quality damage. You would truly have gank battlecruisers, which make cruisers die in seconds and get wtfpwnd by Battleships. Is it really that hard? Originally by:** kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Protunia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.19 06:38:00 - [266] Originally by: Imode Edited by: Imode on 18/11/2006 18:27:01 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: MOS DEF You guys ask for ownageboats. If the hurricane and drake would'`ve stayed as they were they might as well have deleted the cyclone and ferox because they would be pointless. It's not the goal of tier 2 BC to render the tier 1 one useless. How would the Drake make the Ferox useless? Last time i checked, the drake wasn't a longrange railgun boat. Which is outperformed by an Eagle. It still does a decent job as a sniper boat, with optimal I think out past 150km (pre nerf), but up close it performs best as a missile boat with a very hard tank. Imo, removing launchers from the Ferox and not gimping the drake is the way to go. moa - 4 turrets eagle - 5 ferox - 6 vulture - 7 rokh - 8 Am I alone thinking that a progression like that makes total sense? The Drake, I'm not sure. I don't think anything was really wrong with the Drake except for the shield bonus and that HAM's coupled with a ROF bonus and oodles of BCU II's are overpowered a tad. A tad?? heh My Character Stats
Faricar Caldari Knightmares Inc	Posted - 2006.11.19 10:07:00 - [267] Can we have some sort of reply from CCP?
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.19 11:02:00 - [268] Originally by: Faricar Can we have some sort of reply from CCP? Your wish is granted
Dread Phantom Caldari Project-Chaos	Posted - 2006.11.19 11:05:00 - [269] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Risien Drogonne I said nothing about midslot rigs. You're assuming the 3 rigs you're talking about will all fit, or be as effective as the mods they'll work in place of. I'm assuming nothing. I have them fitted right now on sisi. Rigs are being restricted after testing, they are letting everyone use everything to find the bugs
Faricar Caldari Knightmares Inc	Posted - 2006.11.19 23:51:00 - [270] So are people happy that the drake has been nerfed now or are they just worn out?
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.20 13:33:00 - [271] Originally by: Faricar So are people happy that the drake has been nerfed now or are they just worn out? So far, mostly the Sisi testers are aware of the Drake nerf disaster, expect more uproar when it hits Tranquillity, when people will realise that the long awaited 'gank' battlecruiser is now yet another great mission runner and sub-par PvP ship. CCP should save them the trouble and give back the Drake some of it's former glory, eventually at the expense of it's tanking abilities. ATM, the Drake is a shattered dream, and it's sad. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the backpipe, but how does not.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.21 02:31:00 - [272] Originally by: Sorja Originally by: Faricar So are people happy that the drake has been nerfed now or are they just worn out? So far, mostly the Sisi testers are aware of the Drake nerf disaster, expect more uproar when it hits Tranquillity, when people will realise that the long awaited 'gank' battlecruiser is now yet another great mission runner and sub-par PvP ship. CCP should save them the trouble and give back the Drake some of it's former glory, eventually at the expense of it's tanking abilities. ATM, the Drake is a shattered dream, and it's sad. I still have faith Tux will realize 'hey Teir 2 BCs were being made as gank ships, and I've turned them into tankships', and fix it. 7 launchers, rof bonus, missile velocity bonus (hell give it a ** TNP bonus for all I care), and remove the resists bonus. That 5% resists per level is a HUGE factor. Originally by:** kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Apollyonn Caldari Lantean Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.21 02:34:00 - [273] Originally by: Sorja Originally by: Faricar So are people happy that the drake has been nerfed now or are they just worn out? So far, mostly the Sisi testers are aware of the Drake nerf disaster, expect more uproar when it hits Tranquillity, when people will realise that the long awaited 'gank' battlecruiser is now yet another great mission runner and sub-par PvP ship. CCP should save them the trouble and give back the Drake some of it's former glory, eventually at the expense of it's tanking abilities. ATM, the Drake is a shattered dream, and it's sad. I totally agree with this! There will be a much bigger uproar when this hits Tranq like this. CCP give us back our good Caldari PvP BC ! I'd even be willing to gie up one of the missile slots to get the RoF bonus back!

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