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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
757
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Posted - 2015.07.23 10:23:28 -
[931] - Quote
afkalt wrote:If you make turrets better at the same time, you will simply maintain the same gap as before, except now everyone makes isk faster.
Yeah and the upward spiral continues. That is not our intention. That is not my intention. People are always very quick in screaming overpowered but the thing I am being accused of the most is not looking at the big picture but I do.
Whenever this discussion comes up the point of view becomes very narrow and it is all forgotten that missiles are not the only thing that can shoot stuff.
Remember medium railguns used to be a joke for over a decade? Now that railguns do damage people scream overpowered again. But it was totally fine when minmatar guns were fit on everything with a turret slot for over four years.
That capsuleers were so used to a turret boat and keeping their transversal up while approaching a missiles wasn't giving them the same result it is overpowered all of a sudden. They had much more range with that approach - how dare they?
Oceans later missile application became the running gag that never got old.
I am not talking about damage in hitpoints, I am trying to get application for all my fellow Caldari pilots. Missile damage got increased as "compensation" but the damage wasn't really in question all these years - the application was.
CCP may even decrease the damage of missiles back to 2009 values for all I care but increase the application theirof.
And please for arguments sake, please everyone remember that missiles need to be launched first, then accelerate and fly around for some time to do damage if any.
Any more comparisons with turrets are moot at this point, I heard them all, we heard them all. Go ahead and take a look, I do use turret boats all the time and yes I really do have 173 million skillpoints to back up my claims about them and other things.
I may still be the carebear that could but I do much more pvp lately (plus the occasional pve to fund new ways to blow up stuff).
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1217
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 11:02:13 -
[932] - Quote
elitatwo wrote: Oceans later missile application became the running gag that never got old.
I never got that part. Some three years ago, I started a dedicated missile alt because that comment seemed fishy even back then. Like 2 months in on that toon, missiles struck me as bonkers/OP and I trained for a tengu (since I had the linkalt anyways). So excuse me if my opinions on missiles diverge from yours.
Fighting a turretboat in a sabre, I can get under the guns most of the time. Fighting a HML boat, I just can't. He's not dumb, so he loads precisions and even when you're in a small vessel they do hurt. A lot. Significantly more than the cruiser with OP turrets that just can't apply any damage.
Surely you've also had moments where you've shot down bombers and sabres with a cruise raven that didn't have anything fitted to enhance tracking, show me the 1400mm artillery ship that does the same.
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Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2015.07.23 11:23:55 -
[933] - Quote
afkalt wrote:If you make turrets better at the same time, you will simply maintain the same gap as before, except now everyone makes isk faster.
That makes no sense, how will ISO get made faster when turrets hit rats 100% as is? Is more than 100% application going to magically increase base damage? No.
In pvp, all turrets can hit anything at their optimal regardless of size if the pilot is good at flying, a TC and TE buff would only lower the skill bar for that 100% application if the pilot was willing to fit one. Essentially "pvp flight assist". Whereas on missile ships, there is no flying the pilot can do to improve damage, meaning application mods are damage mods. Only affecting certain areas of the damage curve as it applies to smaller and faster targets. MGE's are direct competitors to ballistic controls with the added benefit of range increase. They have to be competitive in that sense, and the MGC is a morally damage mod that reduces tank/utility. It has to be valued against those things in terms of value. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1698
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 11:26:20 -
[934] - Quote
Consider things like machariels, vargurs - they fight in falloff. Extending range makes more DPS.
Blaster boats are in a similar position. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
318
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 12:24:39 -
[935] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Unguided missiles are doing fine atm. and maybe it's time to remove guided-unguided names because they are both guided for short/long range. There are no unguided missiles in this game (bombs maybe).
Lloyd Roses wrote:Fighting a turretboat in a sabre, I can get under the guns most of the time. Fighting a HML boat, I just can't. He's not dumb, so he loads precisions and even when you're in a small vessel they do hurt. A lot. Significantly more than the cruiser with OP turrets that just can't apply any damage. and I have problems to kill astero with my drake (precisions, full flight of drones in blackhole) What does that prove? Astero is OP or Sabre has weak tank? Depends on fit I guess.
Maybe we need different approach here, which hulls would be OP if modules hit TQ without nerfs?
"-What are you doing?"
"-Docking."(...)
-"It's not possible"
-"No, it's necessary."
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Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 12:42:39 -
[936] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Consider things like machariels, vargurs - they fight in falloff. Extending range makes more DPS.
Blaster boats are in a similar position: More range means short range high DPS ammo gains engagement range.
See also: Dreads in cap escalations with even more tracking.
Fighting in buffed falloff is exactly what I said. It's a module assisting your piloting, range can be drawn in as well as pointing your ship and controlling your speed and alignment to improve that damage just like the TC allows you to do that easier and at greater ranges. It does not improve your damage. The TC only makes that easier.
When application is subpar with turrets, fly better. When application is subpar with missiles, cry.
Getting something we apply good piloting to to improve missile damage variably with skill, would be amazing.
And cap escalations are already min maxed and broken income. They are a whole separate issue. |
Mike Whiite
Geuzen Inc
392
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 12:53:42 -
[937] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Unguided missiles are doing fine atm.
Torps aren't doing fine.
They're working on stealth bombers a ship that aside from being able to Cloak, move and align at frigate speed needs:
10% bonus on explosion radius and explosion velocity a level 20% bonus on missile velocity a level and 15% damage a level
to let them be good.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
883
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 13:24:04 -
[938] - Quote
People used to claim that if CCP buffed missile velocity and reduced flight time, so that missiles went faster to the same range, that it would break mechanics.
This has been disproved by the Mordus Legion ships.
The Barghest is a better example to use as the kiting capability of the other two is OP.
CCP can easily double missile velocity and half flight time, which would make missiles much more effective in PVP. It would also means we don't have 3 flights of missiles out at once, which is annoying as hell.
This won't fix application issues, but it will fix time on target and make ranged missile fits viable outside of large fleet combat. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
757
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:30:24 -
[939] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:-shortened- Surely you've also had moments where you've shot down bombers and sabres with a cruise raven that didn't have anything fitted to enhance tracking, show me the 1400mm artillery ship that does the same.
If I may be so bold and talk about a ship that I have never flown and have no plan on flying it, the tornado. If I am not mistaken you can fit the 1400mm artilleries on it. Now when you fly a turret boat with long range guns, you want to be as mobile as possible and you want to be at range away from your target. You also want to fly in the opposite direction of where your target is which greatly improves your damage application. Your target my know this but let's say it is too slow to keep up.
From hereon out it becomes an angles game. Imagine your ship at a dot in space and your target as another dot in space. Your target maybe slower and mostly likely able to kill the tornado but it is too slow to keep up but it still tries.
Now here is the bullet point. Your target puts her or himself in a terrible position since the straighter the line between those two dots in space become, the better you track. In this case the low base tracking of the 1400mm guns is totally irrelevant, only the range is important for calculating damage - devastating damage.
From my experience with lasers and railguns I strongly believe you will fit tracking enhancers on that tornado but even if you don't and have 2 nanos on and manage to keep your distance and angle in a good position (rapidly clicking in space like a mad girl) to correct your angles while you hammer your target down.
Now humans are a prime example of training habits and keeping them and while it is possible to fly in a way to not get hit and under your guns it is usually bad to try the same with missile ships. The only thing that will happen is that the missile range will increase and everything is op.
Instead of flying away and warping to a better position they keep trying the very same thing they should already know will have the same result every time.
Back in the day when missiles had 100% application missiles where balanced by the fact that you can shoot them down, no weapon grouping and smaller ships could outrun the missile velocity until the flighttime ran out.
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Spugg Galdon
Nisroc Angels
729
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 14:56:56 -
[940] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:People used to claim that if CCP buffed missile velocity and reduced flight time, so that missiles went faster to the same range, that it would break mechanics.
This has been disproved by the Mordus Legion ships.
The Barghest is a better example to use as the kiting capability of the other two is OP.
CCP can easily double missile velocity and half flight time, which would make missiles much more effective in PVP. It would also means we don't have 3 flights of missiles out at once, which is annoying as hell.
This won't fix application issues, but it will fix time on target and make ranged missile fits viable outside of large fleet combat.
The thing is though, when it comes to range, LR missiles have LR turrets beat every time. Also, the fact is that missile boats don't have to worry about tracking. Just application. This is a big deal as it means, if it ever happened, When a HML Drake fleet squares off against a Railgun Ferox fleet, the Drake fleet could go into point blank range and deal the same dps as it would at max range. The Ferox fleet however will find tracking at point blank range extremely difficult.
This is the tradeoff with missile flight time. It's a balancing factor.
Instant damage is extremely useful in game which almost relegates missile DPS as secondary. However, nothing can comete with a Cruise Raven for damage projection however 10 seconds for those missiles to reach 100km range is frustrating.
I'm surprised "Doppler Ravens" don't get used though. Those things are a very interesting concept as a "shock" platform |
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
883
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 15:12:00 -
[941] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote: The thing is though, when it comes to range, LR missiles have LR turrets beat every time. Also, the fact is that missile boats don't have to worry about tracking. Just application. This is a big deal as it means, if it ever happened, When a HML Drake fleet squares off against a Railgun Ferox fleet, the Drake fleet could go into point blank range and deal the same dps as it would at max range. The Ferox fleet however will find tracking at point blank range extremely difficult.
This is the tradeoff with missile flight time. It's a balancing factor.
Instant damage is extremely useful in game which almost relegates missile DPS as secondary. However, nothing can comete with a Cruise Raven for damage projection however 10 seconds for those missiles to reach 100km range is frustrating.
I'm surprised "Doppler Ravens" don't get used though. Those things are a very interesting concept as a "shock" platform
See, here's the problem with that Concept. Missiles do have the best damage at long range, but no one uses them at long range, unless in a fleet fight where the target is already locked down. That said, it's still preferred that you bring a long range turret boat for instant application because no one wants to wait for missiles to arrive. You can lose part of your fleet before the first missile volley even hits the target, in some cases.
However, long range fights aren't too common due to your mentioned reduced DPS concern. This puts your targets in close range, where turrets will always out DPS missiles, and you're typically locked down enough to where tracking isn't an issue.
This is why kite missile fits are typically the only used options for missiles, unless you're going in your face HAMs. I think even most frigs will use lights over rockets, and same is the case for destroyers. In the case of cruisers, HMLs suck so bad that cruisers typically always fit rapid lights.
Buffing missile velocity at the cost of flight time doesn't increase application, but instead increases time to target, which will help to make long range missile systems (apart from lights) actually used. The only time I ever really see cruise missiles being used in PVP is at the Alliance tournament, but even then they're out shined by turret boats. |
Matt Faithbringer
Rapid Withdrawal
10
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 15:14:14 -
[942] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:...but instead decreases time to target
FTFY
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1698
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 15:18:15 -
[943] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:I'm surprised "Doppler Ravens" don't get used though. Those things are a very interesting concept as a "shock" platform
Logi invalidates it, basically. Unless each volley will alpha a target off field, it's otherwise impossible to target swap effectively.
If you ARE alphaing things, the massive delay between redbox and impact means they could even warp off to a tactical, should the so choose.
And the thing is, if you have that many raven pilots, you're better off in turret boats like NApocs. You'll still alpha everything, without the travel time and all the bad stuff it brings with it.
And as the guy above me points out, if you die with missiles in flight, they disappear. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
883
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 15:22:40 -
[944] - Quote
Matt Faithbringer wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:...but instead decreases time to target FTFY
My bad.. Good catch.. fixed. |
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
44
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Posted - 2015.07.23 16:57:49 -
[945] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Now here is the bullet point. Your target puts her or himself in a terrible position since the straighter the line between those two dots in space become, the better you track. In this case the low base tracking of the 1400mm guns is totally irrelevant, only the range is important for calculating damage - devastating damage.
You have absolutely no clue, that or you're stating silliness on purpose to try and make your 100% application idea sound logical. either way: you're so wrong it's not even funny.
you could fly a MWD merlin almost straight at that Tornado and it would miss each and every time (apart from wrecking obviously). Versus a MWD Caracal you'd easily lose about 30% applied damage if he'd approach at ~10 degree angle, get it to 20 degrees and the applied damage becomes negligible. And it's not like those ships are the fastest & low sig representatives of their ship class.
It's almost as if turrets require tracking mods outside ideal (read: non-realistic) scenarios. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
757
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 17:34:05 -
[946] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:elitatwo wrote:Now here is the bullet point. Your target puts her or himself in a terrible position since the straighter the line between those two dots in space become, the better you track. In this case the low base tracking of the 1400mm guns is totally irrelevant, only the range is important for calculating damage - devastating damage. You have absolutely no clue, that or you're stating silliness on purpose to try and make your 100% application idea sound logical. either way: you're so wrong it's not even funny. you could fly a MWD merlin almost straight at that Tornado and it would miss each and every time (apart from wrecking obviously). Versus a MWD Caracal you'd easily lose about 30% applied damage if he'd approach at ~10 degree angle, get it to 20 degrees and the applied damage becomes negligible. And it's not like those ships are the fastest & low sig representatives of their ship class. It's almost as if turrets require tracking mods outside ideal (read: non-realistic) scenarios.
I really have enough of you! You are 2 days old and talk to me?? Remove yourself from planet Earth or I do.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
883
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 17:45:07 -
[947] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Tiberius Heth wrote:elitatwo wrote:Now here is the bullet point. Your target puts her or himself in a terrible position since the straighter the line between those two dots in space become, the better you track. In this case the low base tracking of the 1400mm guns is totally irrelevant, only the range is important for calculating damage - devastating damage. You have absolutely no clue, that or you're stating silliness on purpose to try and make your 100% application idea sound logical. either way: you're so wrong it's not even funny. you could fly a MWD merlin almost straight at that Tornado and it would miss each and every time (apart from wrecking obviously). Versus a MWD Caracal you'd easily lose about 30% applied damage if he'd approach at ~10 degree angle, get it to 20 degrees and the applied damage becomes negligible. And it's not like those ships are the fastest & low sig representatives of their ship class. It's almost as if turrets require tracking mods outside ideal (read: non-realistic) scenarios. I really have enough of you! You are 2 days old and talk to me?? Remove yourself from planet Earth or I do.
You'll notice his corp is "Say No to Features".
That set aside. What in the actual F#CK???
If you fly a Merlin straight at a Tornado, you will be blasted into Oblivion. If that Merlin is also running MWD, you might as well eject, because that Tornado will 1 shot you off the field.
As far as his suggestion of "non-realistic" scenarios. I have blasted frigs off the field with an Tach fitted Oracle several times. I can counter tracking issues by countering traversal, I can catch them on alignment, and I can catch them on a turn. All of this without tracking mods.
Sniper fits rely HEAVILY on catching the target out of traversal. Not too long back, just about everyone had a Tornado with 1400s sitting 200km off the gate blasting ships as soon as they came out of cloak... If you came at them, they'd warp to another Snip position and blast you from there.
I would Like Tiberius Heth to name me one time where he has seen a missile boat used for sniping. If he can, the I'll call him a flat out liar. |
stoicfaux
6162
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 20:23:44 -
[948] - Quote
At the risk of derailing the conversation with a non-negative post, it looks you can now fly a Golem with Warp Speed Rigs That Can One-Shot Non-Elite NPC Cruisers with Fury Ammo in Level 4 Missions, or GWSRTCOSNENPCCFAL4M for short.
The downside is that you need 3 RF TPs and 5% dmg, explosion radius and explosion velocity rigs, so it's a bit of a price jump but the inclusion of warp speed rigs almost makes the Golem competitive in level 4s.
[Golem, Level 4 with Warp Rigs] Ballistic Control System II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Micro Jump Drive Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion Module I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4519
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 20:49:29 -
[949] - Quote
Time to avert ones eyes from this train wreck... To make these modules more feasible, they should be adjusted as follows:
Missile Guidance Enhancer II Explosion Velocity Bonus 7.5% (was 5.5%) Explosion Radius Bonus -7.5% (was -5.5%) Missile Velocity Bonus 15% (was 6%) Flight Time Bonus 0% (was 6%)
Missile Guidance Computer Explosion Velocity Bonus 9.5% (was 7.5%) Explosion Radius Bonus -9.5% (was -7.5%) Missile Velocity Bonus 10% (was 5.5%) Flight Time Bonus 0% (was 5.5%)
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1699
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 20:54:24 -
[950] - Quote
I take it you mean elite?
That's a hell of a bling when this will compete just as well (in my experience).
[Vargur, Cheap] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Damage Control II
Large Micro Jump Drive Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I Bastion Module I
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
I think I have 3% damage implants and 3% RoF. Pretty sure it's over 1000 dps on the sheet.
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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4519
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 21:11:15 -
[951] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I take it you mean elite? That's a hell of a bling when this will compete just as well (in my experience). Except we're discussing missiles and missile application.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
883
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 21:34:49 -
[952] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:At the risk of derailing the conversation with a non-negative post, it looks you can now fly a Golem with Warp Speed Rigs That Can One-Shot Non-Elite NPC Cruisers with Fury Ammo in Level 4 Missions, or GWSRTCOSNENPCCFAL4M for short. The downside is that you need 3 RF TPs and 5% dmg, explosion radius and explosion velocity implants, so it's a bit of a price jump but the inclusion of warp speed rigs almost makes the Golem competitive in level 4s. [Golem, Level 4 with Warp Rigs] Ballistic Control System II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Micro Jump Drive Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion Module I Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
It may just be me, but this fit looks like crap. You'd be just fine with 3 TP, or 2 TP and a MGC II. Or, drop the warp rigs and put application rigs, plus 2 MGC II and not have to worry about range. Then you get two more mids.
IDK... That fit just seems kinda meh.. |
stoicfaux
6162
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 21:57:14 -
[953] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:It may just be me, but this fit looks like crap. You'd be just fine with 3 TP, or 2 TP and a MGC II. Or, drop the warp rigs and put application rigs, plus 2 MGC II and not have to worry about range. Then you get two more mids.
IDK... That fit just seems kinda meh.. It's you. I'm thinking you missed that this is a Cruise Golem for Level 4 mission running that can use Fury ammo to one shot non-elite NPC cruisers.
Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
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stoicfaux
6162
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 22:07:43 -
[954] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I take it you mean elite?
That's a hell of a bling when this will compete just as well (in my experience).
[Vargur, Cheap]
The Vargur doesn't "compete just as well." The Vargur is faster. (Well, there are couple of missions where a Golem could blitz faster, e.g. rage torp golem for damsel.)
Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
883
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 22:35:40 -
[955] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:It may just be me, but this fit looks like crap. You'd be just fine with 3 TP, or 2 TP and a MGC II. Or, drop the warp rigs and put application rigs, plus 2 MGC II and not have to worry about range. Then you get two more mids.
IDK... That fit just seems kinda meh.. It's you. I'm thinking you missed that this is a Cruise Golem for Level 4 mission running that can use Fury ammo to one shot non-elite NPC cruisers.
I got that, I'm just thinking you don't need 4 modules to 1 shot. You can Probably do it with 3 and have an extra mid for more tank. Or, you can fit application rigs. I really don't think the extra 1au war speed is really worth the isk costs to put those rigs on.
I can 1 shot non-elite frigs with just 3 target painters, same BCU setup as you, and a T2 Califaction rig. Well.. I think I also have a 5% damage, 5% RoF, and a 5% application rig, but point still stands. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
758
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Posted - 2015.07.23 23:46:10 -
[956] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:At the risk of derailing the conversation with a non-negative post...
Which I for one would welcome.
Moving on and fittings aside you still have 4 application mods on and if you don't want to, you don't have to put any on a turret boat.
I can live with one application mod and in some edge cases two but when I have to fit all slots with application mods then we have a problem, Houston.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
884
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 00:19:48 -
[957] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:stoicfaux wrote:At the risk of derailing the conversation with a non-negative post... Which I for one would welcome. Moving on and fittings aside you still have 4 application mods on and if you don't want to, you don't have to put any on a turret boat. I can live with one application mod and in some edge cases two but when I have to fit all slots with application mods then we have a problem, Houston.
I used to mission in Nightmare, until they finally fixed the Golem, or rather, added bastion. (didn't really fix the ship, just gave it a good module.)
In that Nightmare, I had Tachyon lasers, a 100mn AB, a web and 1 or 2 TCs. (I'm thinking I dropped down to 1 when I realized how effective I could be.)
I would blast frigs at range with Navy Infrared, which is the furthest range ammo I used, and would only use up to navy Multi. If a frig got in orbit, I would web, pop in tracking script, and blap. If I still couldn't hit them, I'd gas it and kick in AB to go almost 700m/s.
That's essentially two modules for application, and one as a back-up, that I had for gate chasing anyway. I don't remember ever using the AB to counter range, as I would blap the frigs long before they ever got in orbit. Only time this was an issue was when they were at orbit range at warp in... In which case, i used drones most of the time anyway.
As far as missiles go, I've always used at least two TPs, but preferably 3. Apparently, you have to fit 4 to apply full damage on non-elite frigs, regardless of range, trajectory, or anything else.
IMO, this is just too much, especially considering most missile BSs don't have the slots to give up for that many application modules. As far as the MGEs go, why would I give up anything in my low slots for that piece of junk? I lose 42 DPS, gain range with cruise that I don't need (I can't even target to my max range without it), and I get what? Another 6 m/s exp velocity and reduce my exp radius by less than 25m?
Not worth it by any means.
I would rather see high slot range modules, like with drones, that are all velocity and no flight time. And would also like to see TPs changed to somewhat match what I mentioned in an earlier comment.
That, I could use. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
758
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Posted - 2015.07.24 00:48:28 -
[958] - Quote
Sounds good. Now all the need to do is to convince CCP that the Ishtar is underpowered and needs a lot of help that might help them to buff missile application.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
884
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Posted - 2015.07.24 00:54:08 -
[959] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Sounds good. Now all the need to do is to convince CCP that the Ishtar is underpowered and needs a lot of help that might help them to buff missile application.
I'm just saying, the modules they added don't fix anything. They could have changed TPs and added a high slot range mod and it would have had a much better outcome.
I'm not speaking on the missiles themselves. they're still F'd up. I'm only speaking the MGC and MGE. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4521
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Posted - 2015.07.24 01:03:02 -
[960] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Sounds good. Now all the need to do is to convince CCP that the Ishtar is underpowered and needs a lot of help that might help them to buff missile application. Let's please leave the Ishtar out of this...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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