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Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
273
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Posted - 2015.07.21 19:33:20 -
[1] - Quote
New players today should start with more skill points then new players started with 10 years ago.
As the tech level of ships increase and CCP creates new technology, needed to keep the old players engaged, the starting skill points of new players should increase accordingly, and the training cost of some lower technologies to lvl 5 should be accelerated for them.
Today, anyone starting the game should be able to fly any racial T1 frigates at lvl 4 when they start, as well as other few core skills that can be started at level 3 or 4.
In a few years, every starting player should also have cruiser at level 4, and so on, when/if CCP adds a Tech 4 technology, with the associated skills ladders to get into those.
CCP needs to start reducing the skill gap between new players and older players without having older players loosing their access to cutting edge technology.
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope...
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
5111
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Posted - 2015.07.21 19:45:08 -
[2] - Quote
This is already being considered.
I think CCP Fozzie was the one that mentioned it.
/thread
also Features & Ideas Discussion has a stickied thread for skillpoint discussion. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
3087
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Posted - 2015.07.21 19:47:30 -
[3] - Quote
Saisin wrote:New players today should start with more skill points then new players started with 10 years ago.
.
Uhm , they allready do actually  .
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
5111
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Posted - 2015.07.21 19:55:43 -
[4] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:This is already being considered. I think CCP Fozzie was the one that mentioned it. /thread also Features & Ideas Discussion has a stickied thread for skillpoint discussion.
Looks like it was CCP Rise:
CCP Rise wrote:Q: 'Starting skills are a huge barrier, can we give a lot more to new players'.
A: Yes. But this is not a simple change. You guys seem fairly agreed that the small amount of starting skills, combined with a high amount of 'must have' support and requirement skills, leads to some really icky barriers to participation for new players. We are inclined to agree and we are in the process of laying out a plan to address the problem. Nothing is set in stone yet but it seems likely that we will try and move new players towards starting with significantly more SP. Maybe between 1 and 2 million. It also seems likely that we will probably avoid any major skill reworks or skill removals. As this plan solidifies you will hear more from us. |
stoicfaux
6159
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Posted - 2015.07.21 19:59:43 -
[5] - Quote
Bah, just do a skill tiericide. Consolidate fitting skills, smooth out the curves and get rid of any stupid prereqs. With a skill refund in place, it shouldn't be a big deal to implement.[1]
[1] Not counting the whine-storm, but that's a people problem, not a technical problem.
Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
8341
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Posted - 2015.07.21 20:51:19 -
[6] - Quote
Saisin wrote:CCP needs to start reducing the skill gap between new players and older players without having older players loosing their access to cutting edge technology.
The Skillpoint System and You
tldr...
- beyond the "core skills" having more skillpoints does not give a straight and relable increase in power that cannot be overcome. It merely gives extra flexibility in what a player can do tactically (which also does not give a straight and relable advantage).
- there is nothing wrong with putting new players at a disadvantage. It forces them to consider other options beyond "grind, get skills, get best possible ship." Speaking from experience, those players tend to die the most miserably because they cannot fathom why having "the best" is still not good enough.
Also... just because Tech 3 exists (which I fully expect to be nerfed within the next year) it does not mean that Tech 1 ships are something that should just be skipped over. They are still relevant.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
112
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Posted - 2015.07.21 20:53:11 -
[7] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:The Skillpoint System and You tldr... - beyond the "core skills" having more skillpoints does not give a straight and relable increase in power that cannot be overcome. It merely gives extra flexibility in what a player can do tactically (which also does not give a straight and relable advantage). - there is nothing wrong with putting new players at a disadvantage. It forces them to consider other options beyond "grind, get skills, get best possible ship." Speaking from experience, those players tend to die the most miserably because they cannot fathom why having "the best" is still not good enough. Also... just because Tech 3 exists (which I fully expect to be nerfed within the next year) it does not mean that Tech 1 ships are something that should just be skipped over. They are still relevant.
Relevant
http://i.imgur.com/7UktVQR.jpg |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
11365
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Posted - 2015.07.21 20:54:30 -
[8] - Quote
A better solution would to just bring T3's down to T2's and just provide them with better utility options as T3's, and at greater cost for it. Why make T1's worthless, then just SP polevault over them?
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co.
Brave Collective
439
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:18:10 -
[9] - Quote
No, it should not. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3536
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:36:09 -
[10] - Quote
One wonders why a "must have" skill is even in the game. Or at least, why a "must have" skill is ever a requirement for anything.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
5112
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:48:38 -
[11] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:One wonders why a "must have" skill is even in the game. Or at least, why a "must have" skill is ever a requirement for anything.
It is a pretty long list of skills, depending on what one considers "must have".
Example, my "core skills" list:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5606050#post5606050 |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
718
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Posted - 2015.07.21 22:09:03 -
[12] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:One wonders why a "must have" skill is even in the game. Or at least, why a "must have" skill is ever a requirement for anything.
Think of it this way:
You're learning breathing 1 while in the womb. Then you decided "**** it" I'm gonna learn differential equations 1 first. You were born 9 months later and you don't know how to breath.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Hal Morsh
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
336
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:38:41 -
[13] - Quote
Thing is it doesn't matter what is given. Give this guy 10 times more skill points to beginners than he wants. I guarentee if EVE survives it there will be another OP asking for more. I'm hoping CCP doesn't give to the "we want more easier" crowd. They will always want more regardless.
Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
11368
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:46:10 -
[14] - Quote
I just wish more people would train writing skills more effectively. Wy haz skillz? Let me think on that one....
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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stoicfaux
6159
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Posted - 2015.07.21 23:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:One wonders why a "must have" skill is even in the game. Or at least, why a "must have" skill is ever a requirement for anything.
I posit that there are no "must have" skills. Show me a skill that is a must have for ship combat and mining and trading and manufacturing and ship spinning, etc. i.e. some skill that is a must have for all EVE professions.
Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
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Sylveria Relden
88
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Posted - 2015.07.22 00:26:21 -
[16] - Quote
Saisin wrote:
CCP needs to start reducing the skill gap between new players and older players without having older players loosing their access to cutting edge technology.
This is the "meat" of the matter, and always has been. People who join the game "now" think they should automatically be able to pit themselves against those whom have millions of skill points invested in their pilots over years of training.
I disagree. And I'm not a "bittervet", either.
Sure, there's a gap- and there always will be. Games like WoW may allow you to buy some token so you don't have to "grind to max level", except in EVE there is no "max level". There's only a percentage bonus based on skill point training that offers you an advantage against those who haven't trained in those lines- but nothing is guaranteed even with this bonus. You still have the opportunity to win regardless of your skill level. What do you expect? That you go into a battle and ask the other guy to remove his helmet and body armor so you can shoot him? Seriously? Um, yeah the other guy has learned over time to protect himself and how to do so- all the while learning how to take you down quicker.
You want to pit yourself against vets? Go for it, there's nothing stopping you- and sure there will be an advantage- kind of like someone who's played pro football for 4 years is obviously going to beat out someone coming from a high school varsity team.
It's called "experience". It's why "skill points" exist to be begin with- the more you practice at something (hopefully) the better you become at it.
People may disagree with this, but it doesn't negate well established fact.
TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc.
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
431
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Posted - 2015.07.22 00:35:56 -
[17] - Quote
No, I disagree. New players need to be educated that this is a long term game rather than "L100 NOAW!!", where planning and knowledge = success, moreso than skillpoints or gear. That its about choices and consequences. And beyond that theyre on their own. That this is a game about being thrown into the deep end and saying sink or swim.
To give more sps really helps older players creating alts moreso than noobs. Because they DONT know, they have no clue how to maximize stuff because of game mechanics like us vets do. And frankly learning that is something we want. Those who do it faster, better or innovatively should be rewarded!! To take that way destroys the essence of Eve.
The idea that noobs really need more handholding is stupid. Frankly the new player experience should be a page of text explaining the harshness of Eve, the asshatery and BS. that you start with nothing and have to work for everything the hard way. That choices have consequences. And that this isnt like other games.
They should be educated, not given SP or ships or isk. And then let loose in the game. Yes this means player retention likely will suffer because frankly people are stupid. They want easy mode and others to tell them step by step how to win. They dont want to figure things out or even care too. Its not worth their "time".
That figuring things out, instead of using Google or getting the best and latest, but enjoying the figuring out for myself, is the ONLY reason Ive stayed in this game for 12 years. I enjoy that because other games are spoonfed to you and it frankly SUCKS. So no dont make alt creation easier for people.
Educate the true noobs and then set them free.
Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace
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Darth Terona
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
136
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Posted - 2015.07.22 00:36:50 -
[18] - Quote
While I agree with the above post, some things should just be given on day one.
If you pick pvp carrier you get the ability to fly t1 frig of your race complete with long range and short range weapon variants and enuff skill to deploy drones. Also should be able to operate scrams webs mwd and afterburners out if the box. And be able to equip and use your races favorite tank variety. Lvl 1 would suffice.
If you want to mission or explore or manufacture or trade, you should have simular skill packages so that when you first get in the game, you can immediately start doing whatever it is that Drew you to the game in the first place.
Having to wait about for two weeks or more before you can even try entry level positions puts off a lot of people.
Hell first time I played eve was In 2005. I walked away because it felt I was paying my first month to be able to play next month.
After your hooked and can do some things, training is t so bad. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc.
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
432
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 00:43:19 -
[19] - Quote
Sylveria Relden wrote:Saisin wrote:
CCP needs to start reducing the skill gap between new players and older players without having older players loosing their access to cutting edge technology.
This is the "meat" of the matter, and always has been. People who join the game "now" think they should automatically be able to pit themselves against those whom have millions of skill points invested in their pilots over years of training. I disagree. And I'm not a "bittervet", either. Sure, there's a gap- and there always will be. Games like WoW may allow you to buy some token so you don't have to "grind to max level", except in EVE there is no "max level". There's only a percentage bonus based on skill point training that offers you an advantage against those who haven't trained in those lines- but nothing is guaranteed even with this bonus. You still have the opportunity to win regardless of your skill level. What do you expect? That you go into a battle and ask the other guy to remove his helmet and body armor so you can shoot him? Seriously? Um, yeah the other guy has learned over time to protect himself and how to do so- all the while learning how to take you down quicker. You want to pit yourself against vets? Go for it, there's nothing stopping you- and sure there will be an advantage- kind of like someone who's played pro football for 4 years is obviously going to beat out someone coming from a high school varsity team. It's called "experience". It's why "skill points" exist to be begin with- the more you practice at something (hopefully) the better you become at it. People may disagree with this, but it doesn't negate well established fact.
I want to reply to this as it was being typed as I was typing mine.
Yes, experience is THE huge factor that vets have gained, not just SPs. I entirely agree here. I can also so that there are very new players that are better than me at things in this game. Where my SP mean **** ALL. Why? Because they do something more than I do. I may know the general nature of it, how to put 2 and 2 together faster to catch up quicker, or how to avoid it or use it a bit better with a better overall grasp of some mechanics.
But its the doing that matters. And as CCP introduces newer ships, tactics or gameplay if I dont keep up and do it I will be at a disadvantage in those areas. New players also need to know this.
Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace
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Orlacc
887
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Posted - 2015.07.22 00:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:No, I disagree. New players need to be educated that this is a long term game rather than "L100 NOAW!!", where planning and knowledge = success, moreso than skillpoints or gear. That its about choices and consequences. And beyond that theyre on their own. That this is a game about being thrown into the deep end and saying sink or swim.
To give more sps really helps older players creating alts moreso than noobs. Because they DONT know, they have no clue how to maximize stuff because of game mechanics like us vets do. And frankly learning that is something we want. Those who do it faster, better or innovatively should be rewarded!! To take that way destroys the essence of Eve.
The idea that noobs really need more handholding is stupid. Frankly the new player experience should be a page of text explaining the harshness of Eve, the asshatery and BS. that you start with nothing and have to work for everything the hard way. That choices have consequences. And that this isnt like other games.
They should be educated, not given SP or ships or isk. And then let loose in the game. Yes this means player retention likely will suffer because frankly people are stupid. They want easy mode and others to tell them step by step how to win. They dont want to figure things out or even care too. Its not worth their "time".
That figuring things out, instead of using Google or getting the best and latest, but enjoying the figuring out for myself, is the ONLY reason Ive stayed in this game for 12 years. I enjoy that because other games are spoonfed to you and it frankly SUCKS. So no dont make alt creation easier for people.
Educate the true noobs and then set them free.
This. The appeal of EVE is it's difficulty. The fact is that there are some folks that will never "get" EVE no matter how many gifts you shower on them. EVE will always be a niche game for people who demand a harsh, gritty environment that it takes modicum of smarts to survive in.
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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Ultim8Evil
Full Spectrum Inc
Fidelas Constans
178
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Posted - 2015.07.22 00:47:51 -
[21] - Quote
This is a good idea, but it needs to be structured/guided.
If a new player starts with a pool of 1-2m SP to distribute, how will they know where to usefully put it?
Follow me on Twitter for literally no good reason @TheUltim8Evil
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
11368
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Posted - 2015.07.22 00:54:10 -
[22] - Quote
EVE is non-linear unlike the WoW example posted up above. Skills make that possible. The only gap is in the wider selection of ships and equipment at the disposal of players with more SP. But no one can use every ship and every mod and every skill at the same time. And in ways, having so many such options can put one at a disadvantage; if they get rusty with a particular tactic on a particular ship while the newer player has but only focused on understanding that ship and it's current state for a given time.
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Darth Terona
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
136
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Posted - 2015.07.22 00:54:36 -
[23] - Quote
If they pick a class during the char creation; military, industrial, miner, explorer, broker,
Then the sp can be distributed for them
Would be cool to have a short vid for each job too. Like the one for races.
And for gods sake, update starting overview :) |
Hal Morsh
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
337
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Posted - 2015.07.22 01:23:29 -
[24] - Quote
I enjoyed my time beginning the game. The beginner agents were around to do missions for whilst learning the skills, the ones I needed were trained more than quick enough. After I got into an actual corp skills were something I figured out while mining for the corp, and we got some awox shenanigans on one of our mining ops. So one of the newbies decided to make his own corp and bring a few of us with him, and we did have some fun.
My point is skills are a non issue. Giving free skills isn't needed. At all.
Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
99
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Posted - 2015.07.22 02:15:55 -
[25] - Quote
Perhaps fiddling with lowering the modifiers on some of the Engineering and Navigation skills?
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
273
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Posted - 2015.07.22 03:19:34 -
[26] - Quote
Ultim8Evil wrote:This is a good idea, but it needs to be structured/guided.
...
Totally agree with that.
The suggestions about a career choice is good, as long new players get well educated about the choices they have to make at the start, but I believe the first careers need to be about ship piloting, not anything else.
Traders, industry, mining, exploring skills do not change much with new technologies added in the ships race.
Have a new player have to make a choice between piloting a mining ship, or a hauler, or an explorer, or a fighting ship, and providing higher starting skill points in these areas make sense, as ships technologies is what evolves the most in Eve.
As a side note, I do not believe the game should refund any skill point for anyone. It is part of the diffculty to make a choice and having to live with these choices.
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope...
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Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
273
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 03:27:51 -
[27] - Quote
Webvan wrote:EVE is non-linear unlike the WoW example posted up above. Skills make that possible. The only gap is in the wider selection of ships and equipment at the disposal of players with more SP. But no one can use every ship and every mod and every skill at the same time. And in ways, having so many such options can put one at a disadvantage; if they get rusty with a particular tactic on a particular ship while the newer player has but only focused on understanding that ship and it's current state for a given time.
This is true, and one of the fundamentals trait of Eve that drew me in the game in the first place.
The vets get the widest options, while a newcomers can quickly specialize and compete in one field. But this is not really true.
At equal ship and skills levels, how-to-fly, implants, officiers mods(ISK), links, boosters and metagame are combining to make veterans way more efficient than a new player.
I wish these other aspects (except for the metagame and how-to-fly) would not override skills in such a significant amount.
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope...
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
339
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 03:48:33 -
[28] - Quote
Saisin wrote:
The vets get the widest options, while a newcomers can quickly specialize and compete in one field. But this is not really true.
At equal ship and skills levels, how-to-fly, implants, officiers mods(ISK), links, boosters and metagame are combining to make veterans way more efficient than a new player.
I wish these other aspects (except for the metagame and how-to-fly) would not override skills in such a significant amount.
Not sure what's wrong with such layout? That's a straght forward scheme - first in more to win. You simply can not equlize vets and greenhors in such a manner when last one would be happy and touch the vets level.
Consider you are as one of the vets and your thread is only because you want your alts be much effective and provide you high level of results in a short period of time vs. go to char bazar and burn billions for a proper toon.
Nothing to do with newbro. |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
11368
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Posted - 2015.07.22 03:53:12 -
[29] - Quote
Saisin wrote:At equal ship and skills levels, how-to-fly, implants, officiers mods(ISK), links, boosters and metagame are combining to make veterans way more efficient than a new player. Why, you buying me some of that stuff, man? lol you're richer than me and I've been at it possibly (looks at profile) a lot longer than you (unless just a younger char like mine is). Send me a 3bil manticore setup, Bro, I know you got one wasting away. I just have less than a year of training into it for this char and a little more to go, I'll get owned otherwise 
Not fair... nuh-uh 
"how-to-fly" = point and shoot then run away lol
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
3117
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Posted - 2015.07.22 04:21:53 -
[30] - Quote
Ultim8Evil wrote:This is a good idea, but it needs to be structured/guided.
If a new player starts with a pool of 1-2m SP to distribute, how will they know where to usefully put it?
Even if you tell a new player where to put them they wont, by and large, listen.
When I started out I had a few friends. Several of them would train this or that as they wanted to fly this ship or that. I would argue, train your core skills first. Eventually when we wound up in a NS alliance I was getting into fleets in a T2 fit sniper BS, they had to be content with support ships and eventually they all buggered off back to HS unhappy that they couldn't fly a BS, etc.
They eventually came around and trained those skills. One guy...took him forever to train even 1 type of T2 large guns (by then I had generalized to Amarr, Caldari and Gallente large guns).
I was lucky, I read some stuff on a few websites, listened to the older vets in my corp/alliance, and it worked out okay for me.
Most new players...they'll, by and large, squander an extra SP they get then be back here whining. I put all my SP in to [insert racial name here] BS but I still can't fly it!!!!
Is training the support skills sexy and fun? No, not really. But when you get them all to 4 you'll be able to fit a pretty decent ship...be it a cruiser, frigate or whatever. Get them to 5 and you'll have quite a feeling of accomplishment. Of course, if it were handed to you on a platter you'll still have that disgusting sense of entitlement and be back here whining you don't have both Amarr and Gallente carrier 4.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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