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Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2015.09.20 11:27:12 - [1] - Quote So finally I decided to fly Marauder! This is a bit distant goal because I must train about 80 days to be able to fly one. However now it's good time to choose the best Marauder for me. I definitely reject Paladin because I do not fly missions in Amarr space but remaining three Marauders are worth considering. Namely I run missions against Guristas and Serpentis. Thus which of those three beasts would be the best here?
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 8568	Posted - 2015.09.20 11:48:17 - [2] - Quote Personally, I find that the Vargur is a good all-rounder, but you probably shouldn't discount the Paladin. Despite what diehard EFT warriors say, the lack of damage type isn't always a major problem (except vs. Angels, perhaps), and it performs quite acceptably in most mission scenarios. [b]---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 228	Posted - 2015.09.20 11:52:55 - [3] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: So finally I decided to fly Marauder! This is a bit distant goal because I must train about 80 days to be able to fly one. However now it's good time to choose the best Marauder for me. I definitely reject Paladin because I do not fly missions in Amarr space but remaining three Marauders are worth considering. Namely I run missions against Guristas and Serpentis. Thus which of those three beasts would be the best here? Paladin. No I'm not kidding. I fly two, currently. Kronos and Paladin. Paladin was my first Marauder. Did every mission with it that did not involve going against empires. Nothing wrong with it in any way, shape, or form. It performs marvelously and is quite versatile. I highly, highly recommend it. The Kronos, well, oddly does not perform nearly as well as you think. Even shooting directly into the resist holes of Guristas and Serps, I find that my mission clearance times are about the same against those enemies when I'm using my Paladin. Same goes for Angels, my time spent smashing red crosses to pieces is about the same for both ships. And anything with EM or thermal vulnerabilities, the Paladin rips apart with holy thunder. So again, my recommendation is for the Paladin. If you really, really are keen on damage selection, the Vargur works quite well from what I hear. But damage selection is largely unnecessary in this day and age. You put enough DPS down the field, the enemy will collapse. Their resistances, other than "elite" ships, are trivial at best. And with all of your weapons dealing double damage thanks to the marauder role bonus, renders any pittance of resistance irrelevant. Golem is what everyone talks about, but missiles can be a big pain in the rear. Delayed damage, you have to severely gimp your setup to be able to hit smaller targets, counting volleys to make sure you don't waste time and ammo on targets, it's all for the birds as far as I'm concerned (hey did I just inadvertently make a Caldari pun?). I did that with my Raven, once I left it behind I felt immediate relief. Turrets are much, much better for my money. I often hear the Vargur referred to as the "Unrivaled king of PvE", so if you really don't want the ease of use and flexibility of the Paladin, go Vargur. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 228	Posted - 2015.09.20 11:55:48 - [4] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: Personally, I find that the Vargur is a good all-rounder, but you probably shouldn't discount the Paladin. Despite what diehard EFT warriors say, the lack of damage type isn't always a major problem (except vs. Angels, perhaps), and it performs quite acceptably in most mission scenarios. Posted that while I was typing away, so I didn't see it. But what this man says!! Damage selection is highly overrated. Angels are the only thing that really take me a while to whittle down with energy weapons, but the Kronos' hybrids (shoot into the theoretical secondary kinetic damage hole) don't really work any faster. So if that one sliver of downside is enough to cause you pause, go Vargur and get the damage selection you want. That is pretty much the one and only reason to select a Vargur over a Paladin, as far as I'm concerned. But you can't go wrong either way, both Paladin and Vargur are stellar ships. I just prefer my Pally. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2015.09.20 11:56:16 - [5] - Quote Is Vargur armed with autocannons or howitzers? Similarly is Kronos armed with blasters or railguns?
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 231	Posted - 2015.09.20 12:02:08 - [6] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: Is Vargur armed with autocannons or howitzers? I haven't flown it, but I can theorize to get your train of thought started. And we can wait for an experienced Vargur pilot to chime in later.... But I'm inclined to say Autocannons. Howizters have a really long refire time, and you are quite likely to way overkill your targets, then spend that refire time waiting to fire again on the next target. If you need range (and some enemies you definitely DO need range), artillery may be your only choice unless you get skilled in movement and positioning (your marauder should probably have two different prop mods on). Other than range, I'd say you'd be better off with Autos. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 8568	Posted - 2015.09.20 12:05:37 - [7] - Quote Either - and Khan is quite right in saying this! - but ACs are the best imo. Fantastic damage and range. Additionally, once you get those skills down, a Mach is just a skip away should you decide later to blitz missions. [b]---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2015.09.20 12:09:06 - [8] - Quote Well, I must put it all into EFT!
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 8570	Posted - 2015.09.20 13:51:17 - [9] - Quote I agree wholeheartedly with Khan on the whole Kronos issue - I was psyched when I first got one, after the hybrid rebalance years ago, but really disappointed putting it use. Of course, blasters negate most of this issue when you consider the sheer DPS output, but...meh. Paladin or Vargur are much better - I have no patience for the Golem or salvo counting :) [b]---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 3106	Posted - 2015.09.20 13:57:40 - [10] - Quote This is a fit similar to what I use, feel free to bling it up some more but it is a competent ship on its own. [Kronos] Large Armor Repairer II Shadow Serpentis Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Reactive Armor Hardener Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Micro Jump Drive 500MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 400 Federation Navy Stasis Webifier 425mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L Bastion Module I Salvager II Salvager II [empty high slot] Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 11899	Posted - 2015.09.20 14:03:34 - [11] - Quote I'll echo Khan here , the paladin is a fantastic ship regardless of which race you are shooting. The reason being it projects out so well that you can just power through the resists even if you are shooting straight into their max resists. You can get over 1000 gun dps out to something silly like 40k and then switch to scotch (mistyped that but I kinda like it) and hit out to 109k instantly and melt face out there too and that's with short range guns. Put tachs an there and you can hit 280k falloff...Yeah I know. It's also by far and away the sexiest looking of the bunch. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.09.20 14:54:17 - [12] - Quote Great! I have also question about bastion module and tank. What DPS tank do you think is sufficient in "bastioned" Marauder, because I get very crazy tank values in EFT like 3500 dps or so. Is it unnecessary or simply standard bastion defense?
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4653	Posted - 2015.09.20 15:35:42 - [13] - Quote Well, I'm going to chime in for the Golem. Yes, it's delayed damage - but with the +25% missile velocity boost from Bastion you're only looking at 3-5 seconds for the most part. Even though you can fit them, I don't recommend torpedoes or rapid heavy missile launchers (you'll end up using Javelin torpedoes and Fury cruise both out-DPS and out-range them; you lose too much DPS to the lengthy reload for rapids). 4x Cruise Missile Launcher II, Fury ammunition 1x Bastion Module I 2x Small Tractor Beam II 1x Salvager II 5x Warrior II 1x Shadow Serpentis 500MN Microwarpdrive 2x Missile Guidance Computer II, precision-scripted 2x Phased Navigation Array 1x Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability 1x Pithum C-Type X-Large Shield Booster 4x Dread Guristas Ballistic Control Unit 2x Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II This will kill absolutely anything at ranges out to 115km. With +5 missile implants you'll smite all battleships in 2-3 volleys (occasionally one more if they get a repair cycle in), elite cruisers in 2 volleys and everything else (including frigates) in a single volley. Bring along some Precision ammo to deal with missions that have a lot of pesky frigates. Mid-grade Ascendancy implants will boost your warp speed to almost 3 AU/s. With max skills and implants I think it puts out close to 1200 applied DPS (not paper). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 8570	Posted - 2015.09.20 15:43:11 - [14] - Quote It's powerful, sure, but the problem with the Golem isn't travel time - it's the RoF on the launchers. Unless you ungroup the launchers, it does get annoying popping cruisers and then having to wait x seconds to attack another target. With ACs or Mega Pulses, it's just a matter of 3 or so seconds - with Torps it's noticeably longer. [b]---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4653	Posted - 2015.09.20 15:47:03 - [15] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: It's powerful, sure, but the problem with the Golem isn't travel time - it's the RoF on the launchers. Unless you ungroup the launchers, it does get annoying popping cruisers and then having to wait x seconds to attack another target. With ACs or Mega Pulses, it's just a matter of 3 or so seconds - with Torps it's noticeably longer. No argument there - the 8-second cycle time is a real PITA. Most of the players that run Golems split the launchers in two pairs, switch to Precision ammo and designate a TP to each cruiser or frigate. A bit more micromanagement to be sure, but still effective. You can switch to hydraulic rigs for a +40% missile velocity boost but then you need to run Faction ammunition to make up for the lost damage application against anything smaller than battlecruisers. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Rexxorr Zero Corp Tax3 90	Posted - 2015.09.20 16:30:09 - [16] - Quote Paladin, Pulse fit is a beast against em/therm weak nps. Scorch has fantastic range and great dps, large close targets will melt under conflag. Vargur, AC great all arounder, really shines when you have lots of small npc ships, they die faster than you can lock (Lock up ten frigs first before the slaughter). Vargur has the worst dps curve but makes up for it due to having the lowest wasted over kill dps. Golem, Cruise is a great all arounder, Fly in park the Golem and kill all npc in sight. Golem will not kill frigs with the frightening speed of a gun ship(wasted overkill dps), but they will never get under your cruise missiles. Kronos was the last Marauder I trained for. I have tried using it from time to time but I keep going back to one of the other three. The gun ships require you to fly them a bit and position correctly to get them to shine. Ungroup guns for small targets for best effect. I recommend absolute minimal use of bastion mode if at all possible, CCP has a secret code which will cause a disconnect during bastion mode. When you are able to log back in again you will find your Marauder is a wreck. GL
Rena Monachica Capital Hot Rods 36	Posted - 2015.09.20 16:38:29 - [17] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: Great! I have also question about bastion module and tank. What DPS tank do you think is sufficient in "bastioned" Marauder, because I get very crazy tank values in EFT like 1800/3500 sustained/maximum DPS or so. Is it unnecessary or simply standard bastion defense? You can actually use medium reppers on Marauders .. they are cheap and still get a 500-600 dps tank, more than enough for missions. It also allows to be lazy: auto-run and done. That can also save your ship in disconnects btw, I agree that the Paladin works against all enemys, but so does every Marauder. Fighting Angel Cartel in a Paladin isnt that great regarding the Vargur, I mostly use Autocannons, they have sufficient range and the ammo consumption is manageable. Arty works too but I only use them when a onehitkill is required (Scarlet..) the Kronos .. you want to use Blasters, but the problem is that the preferred enemy (Serpentis/Guristas) mostly stays out of effective range. Its quite annoying
Ersahi Kir Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 412	Posted - 2015.09.20 16:41:21 - [18] - Quote The right answer here is to pick the one you like looking at, because they are all beastly ships. Just be aware that the golem does require you to spend some times working on target painter skills to really get the full benefit.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 401	Posted - 2015.09.20 16:58:42 - [19] - Quote Polarized AC Vargur. XL pith + cap booster for tank, rest all damage and application, warp speed rigs.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.09.20 17:02:10 - [20] - Quote As for now I am inclined towards Vargur and Golem...
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4655	Posted - 2015.09.20 17:45:16 - [21] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: As for now I am inclined towards Vargur and Golem... The Golem comes in black. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 8574	Posted - 2015.09.20 18:20:03 - [22] - Quote Rena Monachica wrote: regarding the Vargur, I mostly use Autocannons, they have sufficient range and the ammo consumption is manageable. Arty works too but I only use them when a onehitkill is required (Scarlet..) Not quite the whole picture (if you're talking about the second to last room, where Scarlet jumps one final time) - you can take her down in three AC hits. [b]---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
Ersahi Kir Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 413	Posted - 2015.09.20 20:43:14 - [23] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: Rena Monachica wrote: regarding the Vargur, I mostly use Autocannons, they have sufficient range and the ammo consumption is manageable. Arty works too but I only use them when a onehitkill is required (Scarlet..) Not quite the whole picture (if you're talking about the second to last room, where Scarlet jumps one final time) - you can take her down in three AC hits. Scarlet has a large bounty (it's like 5m or something) which makes the arty ships worth taking in that specific mission. You get to kill her three times, and you collect the 5m bounty 3 times. If you can't alpha her though she jumps through so you only collect isk off the last room.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 1733	Posted - 2015.09.20 23:11:25 - [24] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: I often hear the Vargur referred to as the "Unrivaled king of PvE", so if you really don't want the ease of use and flexibility of the Paladin, go Vargur. yet it bends the knee to the machariel. IMO acs are useless without mobility, I don't understand the vargur hype. Ersahi Kir wrote: Scarlet has a large bounty (it's like 5m or something) which makes the arty ships worth taking in that specific mission. You get to kill her three times, and you collect the 5m bounty 3 times. If you can't alpha her though she jumps through so you only collect isk off the last room. afaik it is twice. Once the first time you see her (must alpha as she warps as soon as you take offensive action), and again in the next room where she also drops a cha +3 implant (have something like 20 seconds to kill before warp). Ralph King-Griffin wrote: I'll echo Khan here , the paladin is a fantastic ship regardless of which race you are shooting. The reason being it projects out so well that you can just power through the resists even if you are shooting straight into their max resists. You can get over 1000 gun dps out to something silly like 40k and then switch to scotch (mistyped that but I kinda like it) and hit out to 109k instantly and melt face out there too and that's with short range guns. Put tachs an there and you can hit 280k falloff...Yeah I know. It's also by far and away the sexiest looking of the bunch. at 40ish km I think you are doing something like 1300 with conflag. Altair Taurus wrote: Great! I have also question about bastion module and tank. What DPS tank do you think is sufficient in "bastioned" Marauder, because I get very crazy tank values in EFT like 1800/3500 sustained/maximum DPS or so. Is it unnecessary or simply standard bastion defense? ~300 omni. has been my answer since about the time marauders came out. Bastion doesn't really change the number required, just makes it way easier to get there Bumblefck wrote: It's powerful, sure, but the problem with the Golem isn't travel time - it's the RoF on the launchers. Unless you ungroup the launchers, it does get annoying popping cruisers and then having to wait x seconds to attack another target. With ACs or Mega Pulses, it's just a matter of 3 or so seconds - with Torps it's noticeably longer. Close, but I wouldn't say it is the RoF, more of the whole you have to commit more damage than needed to kill a target, because you can't always 100% know how many missiles to shoot at the target, and out of convenience I usually group all launchers, which leads to a lot of overkill, and waiting full cycle times. With guns they hit instantly and even if I activate every single gun on my ship, only the required amount activate, meaning I almost never have to wait a full cycle to activate the next gun. I almost never group any guns, main exception vs dread pirate scarlet. @ChainsawPlankto
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 108	Posted - 2015.09.21 02:09:41 - [25] - Quote Paladin-------Best PVE Marauder Vargur--------Best PVP Marauder Golem--------Best All Rounder Marauder Kronos-------Best looking Marauder With your skills, I'd say the Golem would be the best choice for you.
Amanda Chan Just The Tip... RAZOR Alliance 49	Posted - 2015.09.21 02:41:09 - [26] - Quote Kronos has a police skin. Just sayin'.
Jack Miton WeebleCORP 4681	Posted - 2015.09.21 02:56:16 - [27] - Quote Paladin: Accept no substitute There is no Bob. Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1588	Posted - 2015.09.21 04:20:03 - [28] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Paladin-------Best PVE Marauder Vargur--------Best PVP Marauder Golem--------Best All Rounder Marauder Kronos-------Best looking Marauder With your skills, I'd say the Golem would be the best choice for you. Was going to +1 the Paladin for PvE, but this pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. Regarding the Vargur in PvE, it's definitely not a bad ship by any means, but I can't help but feel that save for the EW heavy missions the Machariel is an all around better boat.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 535	Posted - 2015.09.21 04:27:33 - [29] - Quote Personal favorite is the Golem because of the consistency of killing speeds, please note I said consistency not out right speed. For me BS are 4 vollies no matter where I am, maybe 5 for the elites. Mission partners Vargur, Paladin and Kronos can vary from a low of 3 to a high of 6 depending on which ship, which weapons, ammo they are using and which NPC we are fighting. Since I mission with friends in all 4 factions space on a consistent basis I value this consistency as it makes it easier and less confusing to transition from area to area. On the other hand if you are going to mission primarily in just one factions space then I would agree with the others that the Vargur or Paladin are the better options. I never really liked the Kronos because of the shorter range of the weapons systems they can use, and yet that is precisely why my son likes his so much. Addressing some of the oft stated reasons why the Golem is not a good choice. Volley count is never an issue for targets that are closer than 80k to 85k give or take depending on bastion or not and to be honest about 80% of all NPC in mission are well within this range. At these ranges the missiles will hit target before your next cycle begins so no volley counting is required. At ranges over these then volley counting can become a thing if you care about a few extra minutes completion time, or care about a few ISK worth of extra missiles. Micromanaging target painters, used to be a thing but that is all gone now. The Missiles Guidance Computers with precision scripts are a far better option than painters. Yes you give up a little in the signature radius side of the equation, but more than make up for it in the increased explosion velocity side and the smaller and faster the target the better they are. Missile travel time. Can't fight that as it is simply the truth, but then it only matters to those with no patience or to those who get stressed out over an additional couple of minutes to complete a mission. Definitely a thing if you want to blitz. Overall and based on experiences I would say choose the one you like best. If you like missiles then go Golem. If you like turrets then Paladin or Vargur. If you like lasers then Paladin. If you are like my son and prefer blasters then go Kronos.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.21 05:29:05 - [30] - Quote Unless you use Polarized weapons (nad full clear/salvage/loot during mission), there's no real point in using a marauder over something like a Rattlesnake, Machariel, Nightmare, Navy Geddon/Apoc, Navy Raven, etc.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2015.09.21 10:17:28 - [31] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: Personal favorite is the Golem because of the consistency of killing speeds, please note I said consistency not out right speed. For me BS are 4 vollies no matter where I am, maybe 5 for the elites. Mission partners Vargur, Paladin and Kronos can vary from a low of 3 to a high of 6 depending on which ship, which weapons, ammo they are using and which NPC we are fighting. Since I mission with friends in all 4 factions space on a consistent basis I value this consistency as it makes it easier and less confusing to transition from area to area. On the other hand if you are going to mission primarily in just one factions space then I would agree with the others that the Vargur or Paladin are the better options. I never really liked the Kronos because of the shorter range of the weapons systems they can use, and yet that is precisely why my son likes his so much. Addressing some of the oft stated reasons why the Golem is not a good choice. Volley count is never an issue for targets that are closer than 80k to 85k give or take depending on bastion or not and to be honest about 80% of all NPC in mission are well within this range. At these ranges the missiles will hit target before your next cycle begins so no volley counting is required. At ranges over these then volley counting can become a thing if you care about a few extra minutes completion time, or care about a few ISK worth of extra missiles. Micromanaging target painters, used to be a thing but that is all gone now. The Missiles Guidance Computers with precision scripts are a far better option than painters. Yes you give up a little in the signature radius side of the equation, but more than make up for it in the increased explosion velocity side and the smaller and faster the target the better they are. Missile travel time. Can't fight that as it is simply the truth, but then it only matters to those with no patience or to those who get stressed out over an additional couple of minutes to complete a mission. Definitely a thing if you want to blitz. Overall and based on experiences I would say choose the one you like best. If you like missiles then go Golem. If you like turrets then Paladin or Vargur. If you like lasers then Paladin. If you are like my son and prefer blasters then go Kronos. If this is true then the Golem has a soon to be useless skill.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2015.09.21 10:23:07 - [32] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Unless you use Polarized weapons (nad full clear/salvage/loot during mission), there's no real point in using a marauder over something like a Rattlesnake, Machariel, Nightmare, Navy Geddon/Apoc, Navy Raven, etc. Um I hate to break this to you, but Polarize weapons on Marauders is FAIL. If you're going the class cannon route then it's best to use either ABCs or platinum insured T1 BSs.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.21 12:19:51 - [33] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Unless you use Polarized weapons (nad full clear/salvage/loot during mission), there's no real point in using a marauder over something like a Rattlesnake, Machariel, Nightmare, Navy Geddon/Apoc, Navy Raven, etc. Um I hate to break this to you, but Polarize weapons on Marauders is FAIL. If you're going the class cannon route then it's best to use either ABCs or platinum insured T1 BSs. Why? If there is one ship that can make best use of polarized weapons for missions then it's marauders. - Can easily tank 500-1k dps with 0 resists using very few modules - Has a large cargo hold to hold cap booster charges (for running ASBs or cap boosters) - increased ROF of Polarized offset with reduced no of turrets/launchers - 0 faction/bling modules required to tank any missions, reducing ganks to only ganking for tears - 0 faction/bling modules required to get more DPS than nearly any other subcap (vindies have range issues) reducing gank to only ganking for tears. - Omni tanks They seem to be one of the single best ship classes in the game to run Polarized with and that goes for every one of the 4 marauders. What reasons can you give me for polarized being bad on Marauders? Am I missing something obvious?
NightmareX Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition 684	Posted - 2015.09.21 12:43:17 - [34] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: I don't understand the vargur hype. The point with the Marauders is that you can both do the mission and then loot and salvage at the same time. Sure the Machariel will probably do the missions a little faster, but if you takes into consideration that you can earn around 180-200 mill isk just in loot alone in the 5x 'Enemies Abound' level 4 missions, then the Vargur or whatever Marauders is a really good choice. If you care about the isk in the missions, the Marauders are a good option for that. To be as effective with a Machariel, you have to use an alt on top of the Machariel that will do the looting and salvaging. So the Marauders are more like a ship that let's you do the missions with just 1 character over having to use 2 if you want to do the same with a Machariel. I'm using a pretty well fitted Vargur myself right now doing level 4 missions (outside of a contract), and it's really good for that. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos: 1: Asteroid Madness 2: Clash of the Empires 3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Khan Wrenth Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation 233	Posted - 2015.09.21 12:47:50 - [35] - Quote NightmareX wrote: The point with the Marauders is that you can both do the mission and then loot and salvage at the same time Maybe for others, but not for me. For me it was "f--- the enemy EWAR." Seriously, that's the only reason to use a marauder in the first place, is when being inconvenienced by various forms of EWAR just gets on your nerves or slows you down too much. This is a bigger problem with level 4's than 3's obviously, which is why people hail Machariel on Level 3's to be the best isk-maker around. Machariel's speed for blitzing + strength of autocannons + reduced instances of enemy EWAR to slow you down = bank. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.21 12:48:59 - [36] - Quote NightmareX wrote: Chainsaw Plankton wrote: I don't understand the vargur hype. The point with the Marauders is that you can both do the mission and then loot and salvage at the same time. Sure the Machariel will probably do the missions a little faster, but if you takes into consideration that you can earn around 180-200 mill isk just in loot alone in the 5x 'Enemies Abound' level 4 missions, then the Vargur or whatever Marauders is a really good choice. If you care about the isk in the missions, the Marauders are a good option for that. To be as effective with a Machariel, you have to use an alt on top of the Machariel that will do the looting and salvaging. So the Marauders are more like a ship that let's you do the missions with just 1 character over having to use 2 if you want to do the same with a Machariel. I'm using a pretty well fitted Vargur myself right now doing level 4 missions (outside of a contract), and it's really good for that. Incorrect (on some aspects of your post). I have hit over 200mill/h over the weekend blitzing with a machariel and cherry picking missions (around 1/3 of the total available missions) on a single character and have never ever had to use a mission pulling alt. A marauder will no longer be able to compete with a Mach since Rubicon. Caveat: You need to be able to do most (around 75%) of the burner missions
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.21 12:50:12 - [37] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: NightmareX wrote: The point with the Marauders is that you can both do the mission and then loot and salvage at the same time Maybe for others, but not for me. For me it was "f--- the enemy EWAR." Seriously, that's the only reason to use a marauder in the first place, is when being inconvenienced by various forms of EWAR just gets on your nerves or slows you down too much. This is a bigger problem with level 4's than 3's obviously, which is why people hail Machariel on Level 3's to be the best isk-maker around. Machariel's speed for blitzing + strength of autocannons + reduced instances of enemy EWAR to slow you down = bank. If you cherry pick missions you will never face e-war running lv4 missions.
NightmareX Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition 684	Posted - 2015.09.21 13:22:17 - [38] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: I have hit over 200mill/h over the weekend blitzing with a machariel and cherry picking missions (around 1/3 of the total available missions) on a single character and have never ever had to use a mission pulling alt. A marauder will no longer be able to compete with a Mach since Rubicon. I would like to see an explanation on how you are able to earn up to around 200 mill isk / h with a Machariel in a level 4 mission? I would guess that you are just MWD'ing around to the wrecks and loots them while you kill the npcs? Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos: 1: Asteroid Madness 2: Clash of the Empires 3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.21 13:38:45 - [39] - Quote NightmareX wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: I have hit over 200mill/h over the weekend blitzing with a machariel and cherry picking missions (around 1/3 of the total available missions) on a single character and have never ever had to use a mission pulling alt. A marauder will no longer be able to compete with a Mach since Rubicon. I would like to see an explanation on how you are able to earn up to around 200 mill isk / h with a Machariel in a level 4 mission? I would guess that you are just MWD'ing around to the wrecks and loots them while you kill the npcs or something? Never loot (except for scarlet implant), kill only what needs to be killed to complete mission, warp speed implants and rigs, MWD, Cherry pick missions, burners, high value LP (most corps have at least a few such items) and location, location, location. In case anyone wonders how I measure it: I enter starting isk and LP. Run missions for 3h or so, enter end isk and LP. calculate at around 1700 isk/lp. Get result and devide by hours I missioned. So this includes repair costs, docking/undocking/warp/travel/accepting/denying time and any refit time. Ammo costs is pretty light considering few missions involve killing more than a BS or two. It's not paper isk/h. Fun fact, you'd need to kill 3-4 1mill bounty BS every minute, continuously, for an hour to reach that figure ;)
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2015.09.21 14:37:57 - [40] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Unless you use Polarized weapons (nad full clear/salvage/loot during mission), there's no real point in using a marauder over something like a Rattlesnake, Machariel, Nightmare, Navy Geddon/Apoc, Navy Raven, etc. Um I hate to break this to you, but Polarize weapons on Marauders is FAIL. If you're going the class cannon route then it's best to use either ABCs or platinum insured T1 BSs. Why? If there is one ship that can make best use of polarized weapons for missions then it's marauders. - Can easily tank 500-1k dps with 0 resists using very few modules - Has a large cargo hold to hold cap booster charges (for running ASBs or cap boosters) - increased ROF of Polarized offset with reduced no of turrets/launchers - 0 faction/bling modules required to tank any missions, reducing ganks to only ganking for tears - 0 faction/bling modules required to get more DPS than nearly any other subcap (vindies have range issues) reducing gank to only ganking for tears. - Omni tanks They seem to be one of the single best ship classes in the game to run Polarized with and that goes for every one of the 4 marauders. What reasons can you give me for polarized being bad on Marauders? Am I missing something obvious? Either you're very skilled at avoiding taking hits or very lucky. I just can't fathom why anyone would use Polarize weaponry on Marauders that lowers armor/shield resist to 0 across the board even if they try to fit some resist modes or use Bastion. I'm pretty sure you're the only one using these on Marauders.
Thron Legacy White Zulu Scorpion Federation 17	Posted - 2015.09.21 15:17:00 - [41] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: Personally, I find that the Vargur is a good all-rounder, but you probably shouldn't discount the Paladin. Despite what diehard EFT warriors say, the lack of damage type isn't always a major problem (except vs. Angels, perhaps), and it performs quite acceptably in most mission scenarios. guristas...
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.21 15:29:14 - [42] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Unless you use Polarized weapons (nad full clear/salvage/loot during mission), there's no real point in using a marauder over something like a Rattlesnake, Machariel, Nightmare, Navy Geddon/Apoc, Navy Raven, etc. Um I hate to break this to you, but Polarize weapons on Marauders is FAIL. If you're going the class cannon route then it's best to use either ABCs or platinum insured T1 BSs. Why? If there is one ship that can make best use of polarized weapons for missions then it's marauders. - Can easily tank 500-1k dps with 0 resists using very few modules - Has a large cargo hold to hold cap booster charges (for running ASBs or cap boosters) - increased ROF of Polarized offset with reduced no of turrets/launchers - 0 faction/bling modules required to tank any missions, reducing ganks to only ganking for tears - 0 faction/bling modules required to get more DPS than nearly any other subcap (vindies have range issues) reducing gank to only ganking for tears. - Omni tanks They seem to be one of the single best ship classes in the game to run Polarized with and that goes for every one of the 4 marauders. What reasons can you give me for polarized being bad on Marauders? Am I missing something obvious? Either you're very skilled at avoiding taking hits or very lucky. I just can't fathom why anyone would use Polarize weaponry on Marauders that lowers armor/shield resist to 0 across the board even if they try to fit some resist modes or use Bastion. I'm pretty sure you're the only one using these on Marauders. Ok, so let me spell it out for you since checking the info on the vargur hull and the bastion module is a little too much for you. Vargur hull has 7.5% shield boost amount per lv. Realistically we'd be looking at lv4 marauders 90% of the time. That's a 30%-37.5% bonus to shield boost. Now lets look at the bastion module. 100% shield boost. Awesome so according to EFT a pith c-type XL goes from doing 726 boost on a machariel at all V to 1996.5 boost on the vargur at all V. That means the Machariel with just the shield booster fitted gets a omni tank of 272 (huge EM hole doesnt help) vs the Vargur having a omni tank of 514. With an invul on the mach and a single amp on the vargur it goes to 388 and 671 respectively. You get even better results running ASBs (one large and one XL on the vargur with no amps gives 822 dps omni tank) You getting the picture yet? Math, how does it even.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2015.09.22 04:18:52 - [43] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Unless you use Polarized weapons (nad full clear/salvage/loot during mission), there's no real point in using a marauder over something like a Rattlesnake, Machariel, Nightmare, Navy Geddon/Apoc, Navy Raven, etc. Um I hate to break this to you, but Polarize weapons on Marauders is FAIL. If you're going the class cannon route then it's best to use either ABCs or platinum insured T1 BSs. Why? If there is one ship that can make best use of polarized weapons for missions then it's marauders. - Can easily tank 500-1k dps with 0 resists using very few modules - Has a large cargo hold to hold cap booster charges (for running ASBs or cap boosters) - increased ROF of Polarized offset with reduced no of turrets/launchers - 0 faction/bling modules required to tank any missions, reducing ganks to only ganking for tears - 0 faction/bling modules required to get more DPS than nearly any other subcap (vindies have range issues) reducing gank to only ganking for tears. - Omni tanks They seem to be one of the single best ship classes in the game to run Polarized with and that goes for every one of the 4 marauders. What reasons can you give me for polarized being bad on Marauders? Am I missing something obvious? Either you're very skilled at avoiding taking hits or very lucky. I just can't fathom why anyone would use Polarize weaponry on Marauders that lowers armor/shield resist to 0 across the board even if they try to fit some resist modes or use Bastion. I'm pretty sure you're the only one using these on Marauders. Ok, so let me spell it out for you since checking the info on the vargur hull and the bastion module is a little too much for you. Vargur hull has 7.5% shield boost amount per lv. Realistically we'd be looking at lv4 marauders 90% of the time. That's a 30%-37.5% bonus to shield boost. Now lets look at the bastion module. 100% shield boost. Awesome so according to EFT a pith c-type XL goes from doing 726 boost on a machariel at all V to 1996.5 boost on the vargur at all V. That means the Machariel with just the shield booster fitted gets a omni tank of 272 (huge EM hole doesnt help) vs the Vargur having a omni tank of 514. With an invul on the mach and a single amp on the vargur it goes to 388 and 671 respectively. You get even better results running ASBs (one large and one XL on the vargur with no amps gives 822 dps omni tank) You getting the picture yet? Math, how does it even. And YES those tank numbers are with 0 resists on the vargur and normal resists on the Mach. I've already check the numbers from the first time you suggested Polarize weapons on the Marauders. Once I saw the 0 resist profile across the board even after fitting resist mods + bastion, I stopped the inquiry. But to each their own I guess. Good luck avoiding getting suicided by a couple of T1 Dessies.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.22 04:30:32 - [44] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: I've already check the numbers from the first time you suggested Polarize weapons on the Marauders. Once I saw the 0 resist profile across the board even after fitting resist mods + bastion, I stopped the inquiry. But to each their own I guess. Good luck avoiding getting suicided by a couple of T1 Dessies. Ignorance always finds a way.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 538	Posted - 2015.09.22 14:32:27 - [45] - Quote People think I am crazy when I state that there is no such thing as "the best" ship for level 4 missions. This whole crazy debate about polarized weapons brings me back to this and thank you for proving my point.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.22 15:30:55 - [46] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: People think I am crazy when I state that there is no such thing as "the best" ship for level 4 missions. This whole crazy debate about polarized weapons brings me back to this and thank you for proving my point. Pffft of course theres "the best" ship(or class of ship) for lv4, just need to quantify what it needs to be the best at. Best at full clear? Best at full clear and loot/salvage? Best at afk? Best at semi-afk? Best at isk/h? Each one of those have a very real answer.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 8610	Posted - 2015.09.22 16:06:15 - [47] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: People think I am crazy when I state that there is no such thing as "the best" ship for level 4 missions. You are. [b]---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1588	Posted - 2015.09.22 22:45:48 - [48] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Unless you use Polarized weapons (nad full clear/salvage/loot during mission), there's no real point in using a marauder over something like a Rattlesnake, Machariel, Nightmare, Navy Geddon/Apoc, Navy Raven, etc. Saying there is no point is quite off base. Golem has better potential damage application than a NRaven, Paladin makes a better MJD ship than either the NM or NApoc/Geddon, and even without an MJD allows for greater damage at range with the optimal bonus than the NM with the same gun damage potential. Mach is the blitz king and the RS the DPS king, though again it comes down to the reason for choosing the ship. As a full clear pilot I'm willing to give up some speed/DPS to not have to deal with TDs/SDs/ECM on top of having greater MJD feasibility and range.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.22 23:01:18 - [49] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Unless you use Polarized weapons (nad full clear/salvage/loot during mission), there's no real point in using a marauder over something like a Rattlesnake, Machariel, Nightmare, Navy Geddon/Apoc, Navy Raven, etc. Saying there is no point is quite off base. Golem has better potential damage application than a NRaven, Paladin makes a better MJD ship than either the NM or NApoc/Geddon, and even without an MJD allows for greater damage at range with the optimal bonus than the NM with the same gun damage potential. Mach is the blitz king and the RS the DPS king, though again it comes down to the reason for choosing the ship. As a full clear pilot I'm willing to give up some speed/DPS to not have to deal with TDs/SDs/ECM on top of having greater MJD feasibility and range. Not really. You do full clear and you use a marauder, ergo I'm right.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1588	Posted - 2015.09.22 23:04:16 - [50] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Unless you use Polarized weapons (nad full clear/salvage/loot during mission), there's no real point in using a marauder over something like a Rattlesnake, Machariel, Nightmare, Navy Geddon/Apoc, Navy Raven, etc. Saying there is no point is quite off base. Golem has better potential damage application than a NRaven, Paladin makes a better MJD ship than either the NM or NApoc/Geddon, and even without an MJD allows for greater damage at range with the optimal bonus than the NM with the same gun damage potential. Mach is the blitz king and the RS the DPS king, though again it comes down to the reason for choosing the ship. As a full clear pilot I'm willing to give up some speed/DPS to not have to deal with TDs/SDs/ECM on top of having greater MJD feasibility and range. Not really. You do full clear and you use a marauder, ergo I'm right. Unless there is some unstated qualifier to the words "no real point," no, you are not. There are situations where, yes, there is a point.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.22 23:09:22 - [51] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Unless you use Polarized weapons (nad full clear/salvage/loot during mission), there's no real point in using a marauder over something like a Rattlesnake, Machariel, Nightmare, Navy Geddon/Apoc, Navy Raven, etc. Saying there is no point is quite off base. Golem has better potential damage application than a NRaven, Paladin makes a better MJD ship than either the NM or NApoc/Geddon, and even without an MJD allows for greater damage at range with the optimal bonus than the NM with the same gun damage potential. Mach is the blitz king and the RS the DPS king, though again it comes down to the reason for choosing the ship. As a full clear pilot I'm willing to give up some speed/DPS to not have to deal with TDs/SDs/ECM on top of having greater MJD feasibility and range. Not really. You do full clear and you use a marauder, ergo I'm right. Unless there is some unstated qualifier to the words "no real point," no, you are not. There are situations where, yes, there is a point. Edit: Reading fail on my part, read "nad" as "not" rather than "and" as probably intended. Feel free to disregard. no real point = there are better ships for the same task
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1588	Posted - 2015.09.22 23:13:14 - [52] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: no real point = there are better ships for the same task NM/NApoc/NGeddon aren't really better for the task than a paladin. NRaven isn't better for the task than a Golem. Most of the ships you listed don't support your point.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 110	Posted - 2015.09.23 03:46:57 - [53] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: no real point = there are better ships for the same task NM/NApoc/NGeddon aren't really better for the task than a paladin. NRaven isn't better for the task than a Golem. Most of the ships you listed don't support your point. Well I used to use both the NM and Paladin because I thought on some missions that the NM was better. But after finally getting the hang of using the MJD properly, I'm thinking of selling my NMs. And no I don't or will I ever use Polarize weapons on my Paladins.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.23 06:03:27 - [54] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: no real point = there are better ships for the same task NM/NApoc/NGeddon aren't really better for the task than a paladin. NRaven isn't better for the task than a Golem. Most of the ships you listed don't support your point. Well I used to use both the NM and Paladin because I thought on some missions that the NM was better. But after finally getting the hang of using the MJD properly, I'm thinking of selling my NMs. And no I don't or will I ever use Polarize weapons on my Paladins. Until you actually try it, you are speaking from a point of willful ignorance and thus the only thing you display is close-mindedness. I mean if you're ok with that then hay, more power to you
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4671	Posted - 2015.09.23 11:12:08 - [55] - Quote There's zero point in utilizing Polarized weapons (and yes, I have utilized them on a number of hulls - including cruisers, T3s and Marauders). They're doable - it's just a question of whether the small gains outweigh the huge costs. For starters, the requirements to have several damage application modules hasn't changed - because Polarized weapons just offer a faster rate of fire and more ammo capacity. On the Palladin, Marauder and Kronos this will typically be several tracking computers or tracking enhancers. On the Marauder it will not only be a pair of target painters and/or missile guidance computers but also hydraulic rigs to extend range (this is because Javelin torpedoes do about the same damage as Fury cruise missiles, with less range and application). Second, you've totally gimped your EHP and tank (two Tornadoes can now gank you), and most of your cargo will consist of Navy 400/800 Cap Boosters to feed either the ancillary x-large shield boosters or heavy capacitor boosters to run armor repairers. Third, since Bastion is now a requirement to tank even average L4s - the level of mobility through a MJD is considerably diminished. You also won't be able to 'shoot and loot' since you won't have any excess cargo capacity. And last but not least your Marauder is going to be incredibly slow because you'll have to sacrifice things like propulsion modules and warp rigs in favor of capacitor rechargers and rigs. So blitzing is out - and it's no longer setup for thoroughly clearing missions, either. But hey, whatever... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
John Ratcliffe The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 292	Posted - 2015.09.23 11:37:24 - [56] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: So blitzing is out - and it's no longer setup for thoroughly clearing missions, either. But hey, whatever... Why would you use a Marauder for blitzing? Completely pointless use of the hull; there are far better choices. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4671	Posted - 2015.09.23 11:55:20 - [57] - Quote John Ratcliffe wrote: Why would you use a Marauder for blitzing? Completely pointless use of the hull; there are far better choices. No argument there. I was merely pointing out that the use of Polarized weapons precludes either blizting or looting and salvaging scenarios for the aforementioned reasons. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.23 12:57:53 - [58] - Quote Ok, let me answer the concerns with solutions as I see it, though the caveat stays as always: We are already accepting that marauders are the wrong ships to use if your aim is blitzing in the first place. Even then a tank of around 200-300 rat specific tank is enough for any of the blitzing missions. Regardless since we're starting with Marauder hulls I'll assume the aim is to at the least full clear, possibly loot, definitely salvage each mission/pocket. This I am quite familiar with. First off, gains: 25% RoF gain. This is great for quite a few reasons and hardly qualifies as 'small' gains, especially since the aim is full clear. In blitzing it would mean very little, hence why I am against using polarized on say, a machariel. It also synergises well with the very few guns on a marauder that already benefit from a huge damage bonus on each gun rather than just RoF. This means less overkill and all the advantages that goes with increased RoF. The Golem: While I've looked at Polarized on the Golem, I agree it's not the best of the 4 options for this. Though it isn't inherently worse than a 'normal' torp Golem. Pretty much the same issues regardless if you're using polarized or not. EHP: There's only two instances of ganking you have to watch out for, ganking for profit and ganking for tears. In the case of the first, because you are running a marauder you don't need bling at all to tank or do damage or project damage so you're running all T2. This means no profit. In the case of the second the number of nados they need won't make much of a difference at all. If they want is your tears then the only thing that would really deter someone is something like a buffer passive fit rattlesnake with 110k EHP. Depends on who you pissed off and how much they hate your guts. Cap charges, cargo space. A couple of counter arguments here. Loot is worth a sad amount these days and salvage takes up no space to begin with. Additionally with the increased dps the tank you need is naturally reduced. I haven't used my Cap booster on my Mach in ages and that's with only 1k gun dps and a 200-300 dps tank. This means you don't need much, if any cap modules to begin with as you'll still have a decent sized cap reservoir that again wont be particularly stressed because of the dps. Additionally because you're not fitting the resist module(s) you would normally, you fit an amp so you get more bang for your cap buck so to speak. Regardless, cherrypick what you loot. No biggy. Bastion: The main draw of bastion on a normal fit is much more the range increase on guns, the tank bonus being secondary. so for the majority of the time you're shooting at stuff you're in bastion anyways. I really don't see the argument with bastion, as if you're not using bastion normally then... why are you in a marauder and not a Mach? Cap modules: The whole point of running a cap recharger (and bastion and an amp or two) is that you don't need other cap modules or rigs for that matter, doubly so on a Vargur or Golem. This I feel is just fishing for a reason. Meh. Blitzing: Use a Mach
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4672	Posted - 2015.09.23 14:10:01 - [59] - Quote Rate of fire is really only beneficial for turrets. For torpedoes you need to split the launchers into a minimum of pairs (ideally individually fired). Even with hydraulic rigs there's still too much lead time to target and you lose way too much DPS to lost volleys unless the rats are at point-blank range. This then preludes the use of target painters since you give up a good chunk of application once you start having to split these over multiple targets. The difference between a Polarized torpedo Golem and a regular torpedo Golem is that you barely need any tank with the normal fit and can then run four missile guidance computers for damage application and to extend range (this isn't possible with a Polarized fit). I'll take you at face value that you've had better results with Polarized guns than I've had with Polarized torpedoes. Ganking, yes - if someone has your number there's not a lot of recourse. I was just pointing out that with a Polarized fit you're an even easier gank. Cargo, yes - if you're only going to salvage available space is somewhat a moot point. Bastion - I always considered Bastion a "get out of jail free" card. The main reason I fly Marauders is the 100% ammunition savings and expanded cargo space. And because you can fit a fairly nice T2 fit without really sacrificing much. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 112	Posted - 2015.09.23 14:36:06 - [60] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: There's zero point in utilizing Polarized weapons (and yes, I have utilized them on a number of hulls - including cruisers, T3s and Marauders). They're doable - it's just a question of whether the small gains outweigh the huge costs. For starters, the requirements to have several damage application modules hasn't changed - because Polarized weapons just offer a faster rate of fire and more ammo capacity. On the Palladin, Marauder and Kronos this will typically be several tracking computers or tracking enhancers. On the Marauder it will not only be a pair of target painters and/or missile guidance computers but also hydraulic rigs to extend range (this is because Javelin torpedoes do about the same damage as Fury cruise missiles, with less range and application). Second, you've totally gimped your EHP and tank (two Tornadoes can now gank you), and most of your cargo will consist of Navy 400/800 Cap Boosters to feed either the ancillary x-large shield boosters or heavy capacitor boosters to run armor repairers. Third, since Bastion is now a requirement to tank even average L4s - the level of mobility through a MJD is considerably diminished. You also won't be able to 'shoot and loot' since you won't have any excess cargo capacity. And last but not least your Marauder is going to be incredibly slow because you'll have to sacrifice things like propulsion modules and warp rigs in favor of capacitor rechargers and rigs. So blitzing is out - and it's no longer setup for thoroughly clearing missions, either. But hey, whatever... Precisely this. The gains don't outweigh the loss, and that goes double for Marauders because Polarize weapons handicaps their greatest strength which is their tanks. If Polarize weapons gave an additional 100% damage bonus in addition to another 50% optimal or falloff then maybe there would be some justification in using them. Even still the only ships I would even consider using Polarize weapons on are ships that are fairly inexpensive with good optimals like the Rokh or Apoc.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 402	Posted - 2015.09.23 22:48:00 - [61] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: There's zero point in utilizing Polarized weapons (and yes, I have utilized them on a number of hulls - including cruisers, T3s and Marauders). They're doable - it's just a question of whether the small gains outweigh the huge costs. For starters, the requirements to have several damage application modules hasn't changed - because Polarized weapons just offer a faster rate of fire and more ammo capacity. On the Palladin, Marauder and Kronos this will typically be several tracking computers or tracking enhancers. On the Marauder it will not only be a pair of target painters and/or missile guidance computers but also hydraulic rigs to extend range (this is because Javelin torpedoes do about the same damage as Fury cruise missiles, with less range and application). Second, you've totally gimped your EHP and tank (two Tornadoes can now gank you), and most of your cargo will consist of Navy 400/800 Cap Boosters to feed either the ancillary x-large shield boosters or heavy capacitor boosters to run armor repairers. Third, since Bastion is now a requirement to tank even average L4s - the level of mobility through a MJD is considerably diminished. You also won't be able to 'shoot and loot' since you won't have any excess cargo capacity. And last but not least your Marauder is going to be incredibly slow because you'll have to sacrifice things like propulsion modules and warp rigs in favor of capacitor rechargers and rigs. So blitzing is out - and it's no longer setup for thoroughly clearing missions, either. But hey, whatever... Precisely this. The gains don't outweigh the loss, and that goes double for Marauders because Polarize weapons handicaps their greatest strength which is their tanks. If Polarize weapons gave an additional 100% damage bonus in addition to another 50% optimal or falloff then maybe there would be some justification in using them. Even still the only ships I would even consider using Polarize weapons on are ships that are fairly inexpensive with good optimals like the Rokh or Apoc. The strengths of the marauder, namely the increased tank, is two parts. Resists and doubling of rep amount. The doubling of rep amount is not effected by polarized weapons. Additionally the tank on a marauder is already far and above what any lv4 mission will ever need. Heck, even with Polarized it still out tanks any other ship with the same number of modules. Though your continued aggressive opposition is amusing, please continue.
Damnskippy Mad Bombers Hashashin Cartel 127	Posted - 2015.09.24 02:33:28 - [62] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: Great! I have also question about bastion module and tank. What DPS tank do you think is sufficient in "bastioned" Marauder, because I get very crazy tank values in EFT like 1800/3500 sustained/maximum DPS or so. Is it unnecessary or simply standard bastion defense? I can't really quote tank numbers or anything for you. However, with 3 t2 invulns, a shield boost amp and an t2 xl shield booster on my vargur, I literally drunken facetank all the level 4's. With bastion mode and barrage, ac's project out to almost 90k ( albeit at a dps loss ). There's more efficient ways to run missions, but I'd rather play inebriated than efficient.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 1767	Posted - 2015.09.24 03:46:55 - [63] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: People think I am crazy when I state that there is no such thing as "the best" ship for level 4 missions. This whole crazy debate about polarized weapons brings me back to this and thank you for proving my point. all it shows is people can yell at each other without hearing what the other says. I don't think "debate" is the right word. @ChainsawPlankto
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 1767	Posted - 2015.09.24 03:48:41 - [64] - Quote Damnskippy wrote: Altair Taurus wrote: Great! I have also question about bastion module and tank. What DPS tank do you think is sufficient in "bastioned" Marauder, because I get very crazy tank values in EFT like 1800/3500 sustained/maximum DPS or so. Is it unnecessary or simply standard bastion defense? I can't really quote tank numbers or anything for you. However, with 3 t2 invulns, a shield boost amp and an t2 xl shield booster on my vargur, I literally drunken facetank all the level 4's. With bastion mode and barrage, ac's project out to almost 90k ( albeit at a dps loss ). There's more efficient ways to run missions, but I'd rather play inebriated than efficient. cheers to that. although I prefer a dead space medium rep, that way if I disconnect* the ship should stay alive. *or pass out, but I haven't had a problem with that one @ChainsawPlankto
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.09.24 16:30:05 - [65] - Quote After long cogitation I've decided to stay with maxed-out Rattlesnake instead.
chaosgrimm Universal Production and Networking Services 194	Posted - 2015.09.24 17:16:29 - [66] - Quote I've been away from the game for few months, but when I was playing I regularly ran missions for all empire factions and own + used all the marauders. I love the whole clear+salvage thing xD. Kudos ccp! Are you absolutely sure you're going to still be mostly playing against guristas and serpentis 80 days from now? Guristas just aren't very agreeable. Marauders have the tank, project bonus, and tractors that really get along well with close ranges. Guristas default orbits don't play as nice as the other factions. The kronos is probably the worst marauder overall, but is probably the best choice for what you want to do. Pally doesn't deal kinetic. Vargur has very low kinetic tied to phased plasma, but Arty is bad on vargur for 4s and Guristas range is an inconvenience when working with ACs. Golem does well vs guristas, but serp have high defender missile rates. It's also a bit more tedious to operate efficiently.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.09.24 17:28:06 - [67] - Quote I think with maxed-out sniping Rattlesnake (cruise missiles + sentry drones) I also can safely run missions against all pirate factions. No need to train three months to run one-purpose ship.
The Bigpuns Touring New Eden Haven. 11	Posted - 2015.09.24 23:22:57 - [68] - Quote What was the original question again? No doubt, polarised weapons give a bit more dps, thus quicker clear times generally. But theres a few missions I wouldn't risk them in, namely assault, blockade, ae bonus room to name a few. But because I would have to switch them out for a few missions, I don't use them for any. I also don't like blitzing, cherry picking and running anomic missions, cos of all the swapping out of ships or moving systems etc. My favourite is still rattle and full clears, with ps to clear up after me. I can fly all maruders except paladin, and machariel, with near max skills, and this is what I settled on as good income for the effort.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.09.25 22:07:46 - [69] - Quote After abandoning Marauders training I have one jump clone left with good gunnery implants, because now I am setting up my new main missioner jump clone with missile implants set to fly maxed-out Rattlesnake. Yet I have decided to use this spare "gunnery clone" in some way by placing it in another Empire to run level 4 missions there for some diversity. So I have simple question: Where to place it? I have two potential options: against Sanshas/Bloods flying Nightmare or against Angels flying Machariel. Maybe someday I will train my char for Golem and Paladin or Vargur, but training weapon and support skills has a higher priority now...
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 1788	Posted - 2015.09.26 01:06:13 - [70] - Quote The Bigpuns wrote: What was the original question again? No doubt, polarised weapons give a bit more dps, thus quicker clear times generally. But theres a few missions I wouldn't risk them in, namely assault, blockade, ae bonus room to name a few. But because I would have to switch them out for a few missions, I don't use them for any. I also don't like blitzing, cherry picking and running anomic missions, cos of all the swapping out of ships or moving systems etc. My favourite is still rattle and full clears, with ps to clear up after me. I can fly all maruders except paladin, and machariel, with near max skills, and this is what I settled on as good income for the effort. most of the ships for burners are frigates which are pretty easy to transport (I think 5 is a good start that covers everything, maybe bump up to 6 or 7 to get slightly more optimal on one or two). the 3 crusiers aren't bad . Everything should fit nicely in a DST for a run out to the mission location. MWD+cloak trick makes the run pretty safe, plus DST have pretty sick EHP. Worst case you get red frog to move it, and that will cost a few mil, but you make it back after a few missions. All my mandatory ships fit in a bowhead. then again by blitzing I make so much isk I can just buy a new set of ships for a new location Altair Taurus wrote: After abandoning Marauders training I have one jump clone left with good gunnery implants, because now I am setting up my new main missioner jump clone with missile implants set to fly maxed-out Rattlesnake. Yet I have decided to use this spare "gunnery clone" in some way by placing it in another Empire to run level 4 missions there for some diversity. So I have simple question: Where to place him? I have two potential options: against Sanshas/Bloods flying Nightmare or against Angels flying Machariel. Maybe someday I will train my char for Golem and Paladin or Vargur, but training weapon and support skills has a higher priority now... they are pretty much all decent options. personally I vastly prefer guns. @ChainsawPlankto
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4674	Posted - 2015.09.26 03:22:29 - [71] - Quote I've honestly found the Golem to be boring as sin to fly. I'm not sure if the other Marauders are more exciting, but the Golem is like a flying brick. You have to either devote all your rigs and between 2-4 mid slots just to apply moderate levels of damage. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 114	Posted - 2015.09.26 05:07:36 - [72] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: After long cogitation I've decided to stay with maxed-out Rattlesnake instead. You can't go wrong with the Rattler. For isk value, I'll vote it to be the best all around ship in the game.
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4675	Posted - 2015.09.26 05:10:36 - [73] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: You can't go wrong with the Rattler. For isk value, I'll vote it to be the best all around ship in the game. I just wish you got the missile bonus as the role bonus and had to train into drones. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 114	Posted - 2015.09.26 05:16:21 - [74] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: I've honestly found the Golem to be boring as sin to fly in PvE. I'm not sure if the other Marauders are more exciting, but the Golem feels like flying an armed transport. The lack of low slots means there's not much you can do to remedy the poor speed and inertia, and you have to devote a minimum of four mid slots and/or rigs just to apply moderate levels of damage. It has a massive signature which is only made worse by augmenting it with Hyperspacial rigs - so it tends to attract a lot more damage. Torpedoes are simply not a viable option because you have to sacrifice what little performance improvements you can make - and it leads to a lot of time counting volleys. Cruise missiles are king, but the 8-second+ cycle time and delay to target feels like you're watching paint dry. LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur.
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4675	Posted - 2015.09.26 05:54:35 - [75] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur. I'm not sure how it ranks next to 1400mm artillery, but between the cycle time and time to impact it feels like an eternity. Maybe it's not in actuality - but it feels like it. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 114	Posted - 2015.09.26 07:55:51 - [76] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur. I'm not sure how it ranks next to 1400mm artillery, but between the cycle and time to impact it feels like an eternity. Maybe it's not in actuality - but it feels like it. I'm screwing around with a Polarized torpedo fit and it's having a bit more promise. Polarized fit?? Please don't go there with Marauders like Anize. She's a KB post just waiting to happen with her paper tanked Polarization fits.
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4675	Posted - 2015.09.26 09:06:28 - [77] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Polarized fit?? Please don't go there with Marauders like Anize. She's a KB post just waiting to happen with her paper tanked Polarization fits. My ventures into Polarized weapons typically lasts about an hour (until I regain some sanity and switch back to cruise missiles). If torpedoes had better damage application and superior velocity to cruise missiles I think we'd have a winner (even with shorter range). While you can make a Polarized fit work, trying to apply the massive DPS to anything but Battleships and Battlecruisers over ranges of 20km becomes an effort in futility. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
chaosgrimm Universal Production and Networking Services 194	Posted - 2015.09.26 17:07:52 - [78] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: If torpedoes had better damage application and superior velocity to cruise missiles I think we'd have a winner (even with shorter range). Im not at the computer ATM, but was playing around with torps in EFT last night. They're looking better than a golem w/ cruise furies at cruiser+ (that was with faction ammo + faction launchers @ ~51km without bastion). Admittedly I've been gone for awhile though, so my cruise missile fit might be off... This is off topic but has the meta offensive profile of golems changed since the introduction of the new mid/low weapon upgrades? Or are they still pretty much 4 bc, 3-4 tp, 2 rigor?
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4677	Posted - 2015.09.26 23:08:09 - [79] - Quote chaosgrimm wrote: Im not at the computer ATM, but was playing around with torps in EFT last night. They're looking better than a golem w/ cruise furies at cruiser+ (that was with faction ammo + faction launchers @ ~51km without bastion). Admittedly I've been gone for awhile though, so my cruise missile fit might be off... This is off topic but has the meta offensive profile of golems changed since the introduction of the new mid/low weapon upgrades? Or are they still pretty much 4 bc, 3-4 tp, 2 rigor? Even in Bastion torpedoes are just too slow - particularly if you attempt to use Rage (these are the slowest of the three variants). The other problem with Rage torpedoes is that while the DPS looks great on paper, applying it to anything other than battlecruisers and battleships is next to impossible. You can solve the range/velocity issue to some extent by utilizing Javelin torpedoes, but these do almost a third less damage than Faction torpedoes and actually have slightly worse damage application than Faction (higher DRF). And last but not least, the use of torpedoes generally requires some degree of maneuverability to keep targets within range, so it's not conducive to Bastion or slower speeds. I've actually come up with a Barghest torpedo fit that does over 1300 DPS out to almost 50km using Faction torpedoes and missile implants. It has excellent damage application against everything (including frigates). Missile velocity is over 12000m/s, so you never lose volleys during cycles. It also gives you the option to swap out to Javelin to extend range by about 20km and missile velocity by 2000m/s. Rate of fire is just under 7 seconds, but it feels a lot faster. Fast (1400m/s), cap stable and able to achieve 4.0AU/s warp speed with Ascendancy implants. About 65k EHP with a 325 DPS omni tank. This will pop all NPC battleships in 2-3 volleys (except for Drone Parasites), cruisers and elite cruisers in 1-2 volleys, battlecruisers and destroyers in a single volley and frigates in 2-3 volleys (depending on range and whether or not they're orbiting). With respect to the new meta for Golems, it's two target painters followed by two precision-scripted T2 missile guidance computers. A pair of T2 rigors further augments this I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
chaosgrimm Universal Production and Networking Services 195	Posted - 2015.09.27 09:12:37 - [80] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Even in Bastion torpedoes are just too slow - particularly if you attempt to use Rage (these are the slowest of the three variants). The other problem with Rage torpedoes is that while the DPS looks great on paper, applying it to anything other than battlecruisers and battleships is next to impossible. You can solve the range/velocity issue to some extent by utilizing Javelin torpedoes, but these do almost a third less damage than Faction torpedoes and actually have slightly worse damage application than Faction (higher DRF). And last but not least, the use of torpedoes generally requires some degree of maneuverability to keep targets within range, so it's not conducive to Bastion or slower speeds. I've actually come up with a Barghest torpedo fit that does over 1300 DPS out to almost 50km using Faction torpedoes and missile implants. It has excellent damage application against everything (including frigates). Missile velocity is over 12000m/s, so you never lose volleys during cycles. It also gives you the option to swap out to Javelin to extend range by about 20km and missile velocity by 2000m/s. Rate of fire is just under 7 seconds, but it feels a lot faster. Fast (1400m/s), cap stable and able to achieve 4.0AU/s warp speed with Ascendancy implants. About 65k EHP with a 325 DPS omni tank. This will pop all NPC battleships in 2-3 volleys (except for Drone Parasites), cruisers and elite cruisers in 1-2 volleys, battlecruisers and destroyers in a single volley and frigates in 2-3 volleys (depending on range and whether or not they're orbiting). With respect to the new meta for Golems, it's two target painters followed by two precision-scripted T2 missile guidance computers. A pair of T2 rigors further augments this Well, ill be honest, i completely neglected taking torp speed into acct lol. I updated fits and played around with a barghest fit at your suggestion. Barghest does look viable with torps. I've been wanting to play around with a torp boat in missions for awhile now so i may pick one up. thanks!
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 421	Posted - 2015.09.27 13:11:03 - [81] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur. I'm not sure how it ranks next to 1400mm artillery, but between the cycle and time to impact it feels like an eternity. Maybe it's not in actuality - but it feels like it. I'm screwing around with a Polarized torpedo fit and it's having a bit more promise. Polarized fit?? Please don't go there with Marauders like Anize. She's a KB post just waiting to happen with her paper tanked Polarization fits. tsk tsk, so risk averse, so scared. It's a wonder you undock at all.
unidenify Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 139	Posted - 2015.09.27 21:51:52 - [82] - Quote honest, CCP need to fix/improve Torpedo performance, most time I see people have beef with golem boil down to that Torpedo is just terrible weapon system. Cruise Golem have their issue as well (travel time, TP become ineffective after 100km, and so)
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4681	Posted - 2015.09.28 00:14:41 - [83] - Quote unidenify wrote: honest, CCP need to fix/improve Torpedo performance, most time I see people have beef with golem boil down to that Torpedo is just terrible weapon system. Cruise Golem have their issue as well (travel time, TP become ineffective after 100km, and so) Yes they do. They need to adjust the explosion radius so that it's smaller than cruise missiles and buff the missile velocity by 100% (reduce flight time by half). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sabriz Adoudel Black Hydra Consortium. 5373	Posted - 2015.09.28 00:28:03 - [84] - Quote I don't PVE much and when I do, it's to support ganking/wardeccing activities (i.e. to rebuild sec status). But when I do, I use a PVP fitted (but no local tackle; an alt in an interceptor is logged off in system) Kronos with neutron blasters, medium neuts, and two midslot tracking modules. MWD and cap injector fill out the midslots, and 2 C-type EANMs, 3 Magstabs, an AAR and an X-type traditional local repper fill out the lows. Rigs are tech 2 local repair rigs. Both Null L and Void L get used. Null hits well at 80km and can reach 95km briefly (while you overheat both precision midslots). Void rips close targets a new one. Carry faction antimatter as well, but only use it on PVP targets. If PVP is a certainty not just a prospect, the guns are downgraded to electrons and the neuts upgraded to heavy neuts. You can tank any 6 subcaps for an extended period unless they have neut support and you can even tank a sieged dread or supercarrier long enough to (maybe) make a difference. I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 119	Posted - 2015.09.28 07:23:47 - [85] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur. I'm not sure how it ranks next to 1400mm artillery, but between the cycle and time to impact it feels like an eternity. Maybe it's not in actuality - but it feels like it. I'm screwing around with a Polarized torpedo fit and it's having a bit more promise. Polarized fit?? Please don't go there with Marauders like Anize. She's a KB post just waiting to happen with her paper tanked Polarization fits. tsk tsk, so risk averse, so scared. It's a wonder you undock at all. Not at all. I'm actually planning to use my Marauders in C5s in the near future. I'm just not a gambler, especially when the stakes costs 1.5 bill iskies.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 422	Posted - 2015.09.28 07:56:14 - [86] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur. I'm not sure how it ranks next to 1400mm artillery, but between the cycle and time to impact it feels like an eternity. Maybe it's not in actuality - but it feels like it. I'm screwing around with a Polarized torpedo fit and it's having a bit more promise. Polarized fit?? Please don't go there with Marauders like Anize. She's a KB post just waiting to happen with her paper tanked Polarization fits. tsk tsk, so risk averse, so scared. It's a wonder you undock at all. Not at all. I'm actually planning to use my Marauders in C5s in the near future. I'm just not a gambler, especially when the stakes costs 1.5 bill iskies. Hardly a gamble if the marauder can still drunk tank any lv4 with polarized and has 0 faction or dedspace modules on it. The cost is closer to 1.1 bill.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 119	Posted - 2015.09.28 09:45:08 - [87] - Quote Hardly a gamble if the marauder can still drunk tank any lv4 with polarized and has 0 faction or dedspace modules on it. The cost is closer to 1.1 bill.[/quote] I wasn't debating whether or not a Polarize fitted Marauder could tank level 4s or not. Instead I was debating if the risk was worth it, in case you get DCd or visited by the mighty Catalyst.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 422	Posted - 2015.09.28 10:22:56 - [88] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: I wasn't debating whether or not a Polarize fitted Marauder could tank level 4s or not. Instead I was debating if the risk was worth it, in case you get DCd or visited by the mighty Catalyst. There's a saying, one we use quite often here where I live. You don't have to have the best security or the least stuff, just better security and less stuff than your neighbor. This is particularly true in a mission hub. You don't have to have the best tank or the least amount of gank worthy modules fitted, just more tank and less bling than the dedspace/officer fit navy raven that happens to undock a the same time as you. That's the whole point of the polarized maraduer. It can get not only better tank than most other ships, but it can do so with the cheapest mods. Other BS can't really do that but Marauders can and that's why they're the best ships to fit Polarized weapon on. It's not gambling if you're stacking the bet that much in your favor.
Sobaan Tali Caldari Quick Reaction Force 624	Posted - 2015.09.28 16:06:26 - [89] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: I wasn't debating whether or not a Polarize fitted Marauder could tank level 4s or not. Instead I was debating if the risk was worth it, in case you get DCd or visited by the mighty Catalyst. There's a saying, one we use quite often here where I live. You don't have to have the best security or the least stuff, just better security and less stuff than your neighbor. This is particularly true in a mission hub. You don't have to have the best tank or the least amount of gank worthy modules fitted, just more tank and less bling than the dedspace/officer fit navy raven that happens to undock a the same time as you. That's the whole point of the polarized maraduer. It can get not only better tank than most other ships, but it can do so with the cheapest mods. Other BS can't really do that but Marauders can and that's why they're the best ships to fit Polarized weapon on. It's not gambling if you're stacking the bet that much in your favor. https://youtu.be/um3tlxmK7Cg?t=19s BEST PART of that movie was that damn bear scene! "Tomahawks?" "----in' A, right?" "Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each." "----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4684	Posted - 2015.09.30 04:43:04 - [90] - Quote Just for the sake of discussion Anize, could you post your Polarized Golem fit along with any pointers? ie: How do you group launchers, what do you typically run for implants, missions to avoid, etc. Thanks. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Pookoko Sigma Sagittarii Inc. 128	Posted - 2015.10.20 11:52:21 - [91] - Quote I have Kronos, Golem and Vargur across a few characters. I can't comment on Paladin as that is the only Marauder I've never tried. Normally I mission with 4 characters, running two missions concurrently with two characters per mission. The deadliest combination is Golem + Vargur, without a question, as Golem can shoot rage torps to BS rats (you need good TP & missile support skills) and Vargur will just annihilate anything cruiser size or below with awesome tracking and the least 'wasted' damage. If I had to choose one ship to run variety of missions, I would go for Vargur. The reason is that most big L4 missions still have quite a lot of cruisers and frigates, and although you may kill a BS rat a few seconds faster with a Golem than a Vargur you'd be spending considerably more time taking out the cruiser rats in a Golem (even if you 1 volley them, ROF is slow on both Torps and Cruise). If you want range, then cruise Golem is nice but for me personally I didn't feel it was an upgrade from a CNR, especially considering tank normally isn't an issue and with rigor rigs and the ship bonus cruise CNR has no problem with damage application even without TP bonus (and at the long ranges that cruise missiles can hit to, it's well outside of TP optimal). It comes down to personal preferences, but I would compare them as following Torp Golem : WOW damage, pleasure in seeing huge chunks of HP disappearing from fat ships per each volley. AC Vargur : swats BC and below ships left and right like flies. Your busiest task during the missions will be target locking as the rats get taken down so fast. BUT when you're hitting BS rats, you will not be hugely impressed in a way that you get when using torp Golem. Now a few general advice, 1. Fit MWD, not MJD. You don't need to 'range tank' in a Marauder and there are still quite a few missions where you need to travel 20~40km to the next gate. You can do this relatively quickly with well placed MJD usage but it doesn't compare to rushing with MWD while keep shooting stuff. 2. For both Golem and Vargur, medium sized deadspace shield booster is completely sufficient and will cut down on need for micromanagement. Both ships will run perfectly fine with cap booster & XL shield booster, but medium deadspace shield boosters are not that expensive & it's just one less thing to care about. Depending on how much cap you want, Pithum B-Type or Gistum B-Type are both relatively cheap and gives sufficient tank (if you want to save a bit you can go for c-type, but the price difference isn't that big). 3. If you are going for Golem, especially if you are going for Torpedos, you really want all that missile support skills trained to V along with some decent skills for TP amount & optimal. This is one advantage of Vargur in a sense that with its tracking bonus and tracking computer you can track things well enough with support skills at IV. Another advantage of a gun boat is that you can control the transversal to improve your tracking (if necessary), but with missile boat you really need the support skills to help you out on this one. (This is why Mach was such a good ship for my low-sp Minmatar alt years ago, because it had good enough fall off & tracking & damage with less than perfect skills. For missile boats, having maxed support skills make such big difference that flying with anything less than V doesn't give that great impression). 4. Kronos This was my first Marauder, as Gallente has always been my favourite faction ever since I started playing EVE. You want to fit this with blasters, and mostly you'd be using it with null and bastion to get that extra fall off range. If you are going against some Serpentis BS that like to sit at 50km range, even with tracking computer/enhancer & bastion + using null ammo you will be doing considerably less damage than what it says on EFT. In most of the missions you will be using null ammo because of range issues, so the DPS from Kronos isn't actually much better than Vargur in most practical scenarios. BUT! If you are sitting on top of multiple BS rats (via MJD or MWD or whatever), and blast them through with void ammo, it is very satisfying. AND it has Police skin now, which is the only reason I'm thinking about going back to missioning for a while. :p PS: Although I've never flown Paladin, I did a lot of missioning in Gallente space with Nightmare. Lasers work perfectly well vs Serpentis, but personally I didn't think it was good enough vs. Angels. Difference may not be as big as some people make it out to be, but when I'm flying a pirate BS or Marauders I want 'great' performance, not 'pretty decent'. If you have enough raw damage, lasors are pretty decent vs. Angels too. But it's not 'great' in a way that Vargur's fusion ammo or CNR's Nova missiles are.
Bastion Arzi Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit 262	Posted - 2015.10.20 12:57:15 - [92] - Quote People really polarise their golems?
ChromeStriker Out of Focus Odin's Call 956	Posted - 2015.10.20 13:58:35 - [93] - Quote Bastion Arzi wrote: People really polarise their golems? Yeah... even when T2 fit it has enough tank to survive the missions so isnt even worth a gank No Worries
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1706	Posted - 2015.10.20 14:31:56 - [94] - Quote Vargur then kronos are top for soloing the blood raiders 10/10 :) Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Arthur Aihaken Perkone Caldari State 4699	Posted - 2015.10.21 09:41:14 - [95] - Quote Bastion Arzi wrote: People really polarise their golems? It's the only way to fly... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bastion Arzi Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit 265	Posted - 2015.10.21 10:06:22 - [96] - Quote There was a Kronos we killed yesterday. Dude might as well have been polarised for all the fight he put up. I got 500m isk loot from that dude. One does not simply roll about low sec in a Kronos. Looking at the dudes kb tho he clearly has more isk than sense.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1710	Posted - 2015.10.21 10:48:19 - [97] - Quote Bastion Arzi wrote: There was a Kronos we killed yesterday. Dude might as well have been polarised for all the fight he put up. I got 500m isk loot from that dude. One does not simply roll about low sec in a Kronos. Looking at the dudes kb tho he clearly has more isk than sense. On topic - the golem has m vote simply because it will never miss. I have attempted pvp in a vargur before but u really need a web and scram to take care of things orbiting close. Anything with low transversal at 20+ km will likely die tho. And quite quickly. Still this doesn't outweigh having 200km range the golem can boast imo Wouldn't polarise either tho. pvp marauders are a thing Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Bastion Arzi Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit 265	Posted - 2015.10.21 11:23:38 - [98] - Quote Well I tend to do any pve in a pvp fit
Onotole Vassermanov The Black Company G.C. Soviet-Union 34	Posted - 2015.10.22 11:23:03 - [99] - Quote Why maradeur? overtank and low DPS, mostly for 5 and complexes. For all other Barghest or Nightmare or Rattlesnake. Less skills, cheaper, higher DPS, enought tank. Why maradeur?
Arean Proktor Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass 12	Posted - 2015.10.22 11:48:03 - [100] - Quote Because you can easily tripplebox with marauders and never run into the risk of loosing one to a lvl 4
Onotole Vassermanov The Black Company G.C. Soviet-Union 34	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:03:15 - [101] - Quote triplebox on ishtars or domies. cheaper, instant damage sincronised, one window control. discuss?
Bastion Arzi Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit 267	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:04:33 - [102] - Quote E war immunity
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1714	Posted - 2015.10.22 12:06:21 - [103] - Quote Onotole Vassermanov wrote: triplebox on ishtars or domies. cheaper discuss? Hardly cheaper if you need 3 accounts all able to fly hacs Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Arean Proktor Eternal Darkness. Blades of Grass 12	Posted - 2015.10.22 13:07:04 - [104] - Quote I prefer marauders over domis cause each marauder can get his own mission. Less warping. I used 3 nestor (cause warpspeed and aligntime) for quite some time but switching to marauders increased the isk/h by about 20-30%. Still use the nestors sometimes when i'm lazy
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1657	Posted - 2015.10.22 21:12:11 - [105] - Quote I always wondered, does the Barghest make up for the difference in application with the increase in base damage over a Golem/RNI?
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.10.23 16:51:15 - [106] - Quote Well, I have just finished T2 cruise missiles training! So I put T2 CMLs into my Rattlesnake and now I must only train several more days to hit 1300 DPS @ 100 km & 9000 volley output. Any suggestions?
Bastion Arzi Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit 277	Posted - 2015.10.23 16:53:50 - [107] - Quote ur missing like 500 dps
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 478	Posted - 2015.10.23 17:00:40 - [108] - Quote Bastion Arzi wrote: ur missing like 500 dps Torps dont reach out to 100km
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.10.23 17:22:26 - [109] - Quote What damage output can I reach at 100 km in Rattlesnake realistically speaking w/o stupidly long training?
Bastion Arzi Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit 277	Posted - 2015.10.23 17:25:03 - [110] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Bastion Arzi wrote: ur missing like 500 dps Torps dont reach out to 100km ah right
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4701	Posted - 2015.10.27 09:01:38 - [111] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: I always wondered, does the Barghest make up for the difference in application with the increase in base damage over a Golem/RNI? Yes and no. With the rebalance in December the Barghest will sport 9 effective launchers and a drastically reduced rate of ammunition consumption. The Golem only sports two rig slots, so a T2 Missile Guidance Enhancer and T1 flare rig more or less gives you the same damage application on the Barghest (the RNI is slightly better). Where the Barghest really shines is missile velocity - since you almost never lose a volley in-transit. In terms of real-world performance, that typically translates into another +5-10% effective DPS. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Yolli Sly State War Academy Caldari State 5	Posted - 2015.10.27 17:11:02 - [112] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: I always wondered, does the Barghest make up for the difference in application with the increase in base damage over a Golem/RNI? Yes and no. With the rebalance in December the Barghest will sport 9 effective launchers and a drastically reduced rate of ammunition consumption. The Golem only sports two rig slots, so a T2 Missile Guidance Enhancer and T1 flare rig more or less gives you the same damage application on the Barghest (the RNI is slightly better). Where the Barghest really shines is missile velocity - since you almost never lose a volley in-transit. In terms of real-world performance, that typically translates into another +5-10% effective DPS. You talk about cruise Barghest. RHML Barrges has best average (not biggest, but best) damage application from every missile boats. For example, if EFT says 850 dps (all V + 4BCSII), you will get ~650 vs battleships, ~400 vs cruisers and ~ 200 vs frigates with standard heavies. RHL shots every 2 seconds so you will miss one volley on every target for sure (100 km range), but these are standard heavy missiles, not cruise.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4702	Posted - 2015.10.27 18:17:34 - [113] - Quote Yolli Sly wrote: You talk about cruise Barghest. RHML Barrges has best average (not biggest, but best) damage application from every missile boats. For example, if EFT says 850 dps (all V + 4BCSII), you will get ~650 vs battleships, ~400 vs cruisers and ~ 200 vs frigates with standard heavies. RHL shots every 2 seconds so you will miss one volley on every target for sure (100 km range), but these are standard heavy missiles, not cruise. If we're talking RHML fits, then yes - the Barghest excels over the Golem and RNI. Mainly because these don't receive any missile velocity bonus (except in Bastion for the Golem) and the missile damage application bonuses don't apply. If you need sustained fire EFT or Pyfa DPS is about 1/3 less overall. Of course I'm not taking into account the Golem's target painter bonus, either. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Transient Drifter Ceptacemia Unfair Advantage. 6	Posted - 2015.10.29 18:08:14 - [114] - Quote I have to say, I really like my Paladin, for everything EXCEPT angels. It just takes so much longer to kill Angels. I think what I like the most is the ability to adjust my damage, as the range changes. I could pick up some more damage, across all ranges, with faction ammo, but its not necessary, at all. Typically, I warp into the mission area, micro jump 100km out and begin targeting frigates. Even at 118km, using Radio, a frigate is down in 1 volley. I have Megapulses split into groups of 2 so I will usually target 2 frigates and they will be gone in 2 cycles. The pulses fire so fast that the extra cycle is a non-issue. By the time all the frigates are gone, cruiser sized ships will be in Standard range. Most of the time, by the time you have cruisers going down, the entire field will not be able to put out enough damage, to break your tank. So I just sit there and let everything come into multifreq range, if they even make it that far. I am sure there are better min-maxing setups but there is no need for faction anything, if you're just running lvl 4 missions, with a marauder.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 489	Posted - 2015.10.29 20:01:54 - [115] - Quote Paladin not only has the cheapest faction/T2 ammo but only has 4 guns. I can think of no reason not to run both 0.o A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4717	Posted - 2015.10.30 07:44:53 - [116] - Quote Utilizing a Polarized Golem fit it's possible to break 1950 DPS. This is with 100% damage application to anything larger than destroyers out to a range of 40km. Not bad... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bastion Arzi Angry Mustellid Decayed Orbit 280	Posted - 2015.10.30 11:51:34 - [117] - Quote but u can reach like 1850 dps in a rattler with torps (iirc) and still have resists
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 491	Posted - 2015.10.30 12:30:51 - [118] - Quote Bastion Arzi wrote: but u can reach like 1850 dps in a rattler with torps (iirc) and still have resists However a marauder will still out tank you with the same number of module slots dedicated to tank (but have to stop moving). Marauders are weird that way Also rage torps have a bit of a problem actually applying all that deeps. I know when I was playing around with the theoretical max dps of ships, I was pushing the polarized Kronos to quite a bit over 2k dps. Only really useful for a structure bash though. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.11.03 14:32:55 - [119] - Quote OK, I will finish polishing my Rattlesnake soon so I have two questions about rigs and cruise missiles: 1. Should I use T2 Rigor + T1 Rigor or T2 Rigor + T2 Flare rigs (third rig slot is reserved for Drone Control Range Augmentor)? 2. I have already trained T2 cruise missile launchers and I'd like to fire Fury high damage missiles only. However maybe Precision cruise missile have also some purpose and utility on Rattlesnake? Yet maybe Furies with decent missile implants and utility modules are enough for decent damage application?
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4719	Posted - 2015.11.04 10:43:42 - [120] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: OK, I will finish polishing my Rattlesnake soon so I have two questions about rigs and cruise missiles: Answers. 1. I believe you'll get close to the same results with either combination, so I'd stick with the T2/T1 rigor as it will save you some ISK. 2. Precision missiles are essential for shooting anything smaller than battlecruisers with Fury ammunition. I'd also recommend a target painter in addition to the pair of rigors if you're going to be using Fury ammunition (it also helps with applying drone damage). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.11.04 17:23:48 - [121] - Quote Thanks! Thus I stick with T2+T1 Rigor rigs. However I am not completely sure about cruise missiles and damage application mods. Maybe scripted Missile Guidance Computer is better than Target Painter? Besides Furies with TP/MGS are viable option against anything smaller than BC or I have to use Precision and/or drones against smaller NPC ships anyway?
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4720	Posted - 2015.11.04 22:56:36 - [122] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: Thanks! Thus I stick with T2+T1 Rigor rigs. However I am not completely sure about cruise missiles and damage application mods. Maybe scripted Missile Guidance Computer is better than Target Painter? Besides Furies with TP/MGS are viable option against anything smaller than BC or I have to use Precision and/or drones against smaller NPC ships anyway? Yes, you'll get a slightly improved benefit with a MGC over a TP on the Rattlesnake - but only for missiles. Your TP will also help drone damage application, so it's like having a MGC and TC together. With your setup all you'll need to apply 100% damage application to anything larger than cruisers are your rigs and a single TP. You will also be able to pop destroyers and non-Elite cruisers with this setup using Fury ammunition as well. For Elite cruisers and frigates, definitely switch to Precision ammunition. Both TPs and MGCs are relatively cheap, so I'd suggest giving both a go and see which one works better for you. Semi-related, painting a target will auto-agress any inactive drones - so there is that benefit as well. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Velarra 461	Posted - 2015.11.05 00:50:34 - [123] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: As for now I am inclined towards Vargur and Golem... Have you ever spent any time playing with target painters?
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.11.05 23:40:57 - [124] - Quote Arthur Aihaken: Thanks! I'll try both damage application mods during weekend because I'll finish Missile Rigging IV training tomorrow. I'd prefer not to use Precision cruise missiles at all and rely on sentry/scout drones instead while fighting small NPC ships but you are right there are those dirty jamming elite cruisers too.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4724	Posted - 2015.11.06 03:24:51 - [125] - Quote Altair Taurus wrote: Arthur Aihaken: Thanks! I'll try both damage application mods during weekend because I'll finish Missile Rigging IV training tomorrow. I'd prefer not to use Precision cruise missiles at all and rely on sentry/scout drones instead while fighting small NPC ships but you are right there are those dirty jamming elite cruisers (Dire Pithum...) with very strong resistances, too. No problem at all. My Rattlesnake fit features a pair of Hyperspacials instead of rigors and a pair of Faction target painters along with an omnidirectional tracking link. When combined with TPs and a tracking speed link Geckos just melt frigates. I don't use a MJD - preferring instead to get where I need to go with a MWD. That leaves 3 slots for tank - which is more than enough for any L4. The one benefit of MGCs is that you can use them with auto-targeting missiles in situations where ECM or damps would render missiles useless. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Amanda Chan Tyrant's Short Bus Syndicate 55	Posted - 2015.11.06 14:52:37 - [126] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Altair Taurus wrote: Arthur Aihaken: Thanks! I'll try both damage application mods during weekend because I'll finish Missile Rigging IV training tomorrow. I'd prefer not to use Precision cruise missiles at all and rely on sentry/scout drones instead while fighting small NPC ships but you are right there are those dirty jamming elite cruisers (Dire Pithum...) with very strong resistances, too. No problem at all. My Rattlesnake fit features a pair of Hyperspacials instead of rigors and a pair of Faction target painters along with an omnidirectional tracking link. When combined with TPs and a tracking speed link Geckos just melt frigates. I don't use a MJD - preferring instead to get where I need to go with a MWD. That leaves 3 slots for tank - which is more than enough for any L4. The one benefit of MGCs is that you can use them with auto-targeting missiles in situations where ECM or damps would render missiles useless. I miss hi-sec where I could fly shiny and didn't have to worry about hot drop o'clock.
Bobinu THE THIRTEEN SAMURAI The Old Guard. 51	Posted - 2015.11.06 15:19:19 - [127] - Quote Not sure what was said before me, but Golem IMO is best. Precisions, damage projection, slot layout, Carry a depot and fit a MWD and your good for gates too.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.11.07 18:51:44 - [128] - Quote Golem is meh. Better are Barghest and CNR.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 4724	Posted - 2015.11.07 22:45:06 - [129] - Quote Amanda Chan wrote: I miss hi-sec where I could fly shiny and didn't have to worry about hot drop o'clock. Was that ever a real thing? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.11.07 23:54:51 - [130] - Quote I have just flown my "final" Rattlesnake in a couple of missions. This boat is a beast! It's like Marauder without need to train two months longer! I can destroy NPC battleship very fast with 1-3 Fury volleys + Sentries/Gecko fire.
Altair Taurus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.11.08 10:31:01 - [131] - Quote Do you think training T2 sentry and heavy drones is a good idea (Rattlesnake)? Is Gecko better than two dedicated T2 heavy drones?

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