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Anatolius
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.16 18:45:00 -
[211]
 Originally by: Buster Gonads
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
Originally by: Madcat Adams
A small corp has little concern for being attacked, just disband and reform up under a new name
AFIAK that is an exploit
Yes, I've heard it described as that a few times. Just goes to show how messed up the "rules" of conduct are in Eve. I mean what it boils down to is forcing a group of players to either stay docked (not play) or get banned, that is in scenarios where they aren't inclined to fight.
I mean, yeah, there's absolutely nothing else you can do but sit in a station. It's not like you can't hop in a cheap frigate and kick some arse or anything - no, that's unpossible.
And I hate how all the stargates shut down when you're wardecced, preventing you from moving anywhere else. That really sucks, don't it!?
"If God be for us, whom can be against us?" |
Zomiaen
Gallente
Ore Mongers
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.16 18:46:00 -
[212]
Edited by: Zomiaen on 16/01/2007 18:42:37
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
Originally by: Captain Hudson
when corps are war decced cant they just surrender?
I've been meaning to ask about this (but some one hates me making forum posts  ) what happens when a corp surrenders?
Opens up something similar to a trade window, to give ISK or items to be left alone.
On topic, Look in real life, if I'm the leader of a nation I don't go calling the leader of the nation I hate and say "Hey, you mind if we declear war on each other?". War isn't a voluntary thing for the ones being attacked. No reason it should be any other way in EVE.
EVEs meant to be a ruthless game, if you can't handle it leave. A favorite qoute of mine from the WoW Forums:
"EVE is like the "fishermens friend" of MMO's.
If its too hard, you are too weak."
_________________________
pirates wear pink! - eris was herrrrrrre
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DarkMatter
Amarr
Mineral Aquisition Group
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Posted - 2007.01.16 18:48:00 -
[213]
Quote:
Now now PK'er and griefer are terms that have no place in eve as I don't know any one who just kills to get glee at others despair
LOL, then you don't know too many EVE players...
Building the homestead |
Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.16 19:03:00 -
[214]
Originally by: DarkMatter
Quote:
Now now PK'er and griefer are terms that have no place in eve as I don't know any one who just kills to get glee at others despair
LOL, then you don't know too many EVE players...
Ok well in my defense Its a standard response to the use of those words since every act of piracy = me being called a griefer, as if I want to cause them pain when I reality I just want their stuff If every one just came to me and gave me their stuff no one would get shot.
Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin
Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!? |
AKULA UrQuan
Caldari
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.01.16 19:03:00 -
[215]
Non-consensual PvP is the very heart of eve. Please don't screw with it.
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Chimu Quien
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Posted - 2007.01.16 19:04:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Combat is the final word in competitive play. You can't expect to be allowed to compete in the areas you mentioned and then be immune from the parts of competitive gameplay you dislike..
Why not? The so-called 'competition' you talk about is completely transparent to me. I have NEVER been involved in combat with other players. I have never lost a ship.
By being careful you CAN be immune to those who want to engage in pvp combat.
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
It doesn't bother me. I am happy with the way Eve is designed to be played. You're the one whining for easier gameplay.
Huh? I'm not whining for easier gameplay. I'm already playing the way I want to play. I have been doing so for about a year and a half. Obviously you have my posts mixed up with those of others.
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Avoiding it is one possible response. It is still interaction. You still realise the risk of non-consenting pvp exists. That means you understand the nature of Eve and agree to play on those terms.
Avoiding something and interacting with it are not the same thing.
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
You have a problem with the game mechanics that were designed to allow non-consentual pvp.
Again, I don't. The person who started this thread does, and while I sympathize with him/her, I personally could not possibly care less. I should point out that with people like you insisting that your way is the only way, there's really no reason for people who play Eve the way I do to ever join a player corp.
What's the point? I don't have the biggest ships or the coolest stuff. I have a modest amount of cash. I have never had a T2 anything. So what? My needs are modest. Why bother with a player corp?
The war dec system is so arbitrary, you can get war dec'd just for saying something on the forum that somebody doesn't like. There's no logic to the politics. But the game mechanics allow it, so that's that.
Maybe that's OK for many players, but a large number of us would rather not get involved. So we don't.
A lot of people like you see this as some sort of macho Darwinian struggle that teaches something about real life. It isn't. None of this stuff is real. It's just entertainment. A game. It's nothing more than a pleasant way to pass one's free time.
Originally by: Chimu Quien
I don't expect or necessarily want the game to be changed to reflect their desires, but their opinions are valid ones and its just plain rude to keep screaming at them 'adapt or get out!!!'
There is room in Eve for everybody.
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
There is room in Eve for everybody that understands the game.
Well, unless you work for CCP and are planning to boot me out of the game or pull the plug on the game entirely, you're wrong. I've been here for a long time, and will continue to play Eve.
Oftentimes, when I log on I like to pack a small miner and a small ratting ship into a freighter, and fly off to a faraway system I've never seen before, just to say I've been there. To me, that's worth the price of the subscription.
It's a big game universe. Somewhere out there are players who approach the game differently than you. As long as they are not telling you what to do and how to think, why should you care?
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DarkMatter
Amarr
Mineral Aquisition Group
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Posted - 2007.01.16 19:05:00 -
[217]
Originally by: AKULA UrQuan
Non-consensual PvP is the very heart of eve. Please don't screw with it.
But it has been tinkered with by the DEV's since release...
Building the homestead |
Gyvate
Templars of Space
CORE.
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Posted - 2007.01.16 19:18:00 -
[218]
Seems like a lot of people on this forum can't read well, or they simply like to argue.
Case and point is I never said PvP or WarDecs are bad. I simply point out that the game changes based on economics. Real world economics.
Despite what the "If you don't like PvP, you should quit cause your a wimp" crowd says, everybody has a place in Eve. The risk IS a very important part of the game. The most hardcore carebear has got to feel some blood pumping when traveling through low-sec or unreg. It's an accomplishment to survive out there.
That's a good thing. Keeps things fresh even though vast tracts of the game are mega-boring.
All that aside, my point remains that this game will change to accomadate the market. If the players begin to bail out in vast numbers (say because BoB WarDecs EVERYONE  and has 5,000 players sit in empire ganking haulers for days) you will see Eve change to try and bring in customers.
-Gyvate
The Sailing Man
Viva elNorte
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BurnHard
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Posted - 2007.01.16 19:21:00 -
[219]
Originally by: DarkMatter
Originally by: AKULA UrQuan
Non-consensual PvP is the very heart of eve. Please don't screw with it.
But it has been tinkered with by the DEV's since release...
Very true. This I believe is because there are two mutually exclusive mechanics at play here: (1) the need for safe areas to enable new players to function and grow and (2) the need to stick to the general philosophy of Eve being a PvP game.
Of course it's much more complicated than that because you have a financial imperative - which basically means you don't want to lock out those 90% of players who don't enjoy PvP but play MMO's for social contact and PvE. So we end up with having to balance the two together. When one group is in the ascendancy, you need to tinker with the mechanism to bring it back into balance.
In terms of a game-play philosophy, it's a pick and mix. A fair way of judging when something is out of balance is to record the frequency of whines, either from one side of the debate or the other. At the moment, I think the whole war-dec mechanism is not working as intended, particularly when you have such large asymmetries in the combat abilities of the pilots on either side. It's essentially a mechanism allowing a 400lb Gorilla to mount a Lemur and steal it's bananas. Moreover, it's basically illegal for the Lemur to run away when it sees the Gorilla approaching. Well, I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound right to me.
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Taram Caldar
Caldari
Acheron Vanguard Armada
Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.01.16 20:13:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 16/01/2007 20:15:44
I dunno
Personally I kind of enjoy being war-decced by them. I join hunting parties in high sec to hunt them from time to time when I'm bored. Not that it happens much with all that's going on in Geminate right now. But, to be honest, they're really not all that dangerous as long as you use an ounce of common sense when flying in high-sec. It's not like they can put a bubble up to stop you.
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Jarling Fang
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.16 22:08:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Strel Samodelkin
...wars should only be declared if BOTH sides declare war on each other. It should be CONSENTED.
I'm sure Poland was thinking the same thing when the Wehrmact came crashing through their border... or the Americans while Japan was bombing Pearl Harbor 
Hey, at least EvE gives you 24 hours warning before the shooting starts - be thankful for that much! 
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.01.16 22:40:00 -
[222]
Originally by: BurnHard
At the moment, I think the whole war-dec mechanism is not working as intended, particularly when you have such large asymmetries in the combat abilities of the pilots on either side. It's essentially a mechanism allowing a 400lb Gorilla to mount a Lemur and steal it's bananas. Moreover, it's basically illegal for the Lemur to run away when it sees the Gorilla approaching. Well, I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound right to me.
How is it illegal for the lemurs...uhh, victims of a wardec to run away? Other than disbanding and reforming an identical corp, I can't think of any examples of what you mean.
Originally by: BurnHard
In terms of a game-play philosophy, it's a pick and mix. A fair way of judging when something is out of balance is to record the frequency of whines...
Oh, I don't think so.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
BurnHard
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Posted - 2007.01.16 22:53:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
How is it illegal for the lemurs...uhh, victims of a wardec to run away? Other than disbanding and reforming an identical corp, I can't think of any examples of what you mean.
Yes, thats what I mean by illegal. Eve is a game all about Gorillas, Lemurs and Bananas.
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Commander Sten
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Posted - 2007.01.16 22:55:00 -
[224]
in the end, EVE is a PVP oriented game, your competing with everyone else, no matter what you do, for the most part.
if you dont like eve, leave, dont come back,
dont try to change eve into your own pathetic version of carebear happy land.
on the other hand, if you can deal with adversity, your most welcome.
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Arkani Gera
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.01.16 23:16:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Strel Samodelkin
Exactly! The current situation really discourages people from joining newbie helping organizations such as Eve University, that assist new players with learning the game.
the main focus of this game is player vs player conflict, (be it in space in ships or in station working the market/production/whatever) introducing new players to one of the facets of the main focus is detrimental to them "learning the game" how?
The corp is mother, the corp is father.
The little badger that could |
Arkani Gera
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.01.16 23:18:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Strel Samodelkin
I know how to defend myself, but sometimes when I want to do a TRADE RUN in my Badger II, I DO NOT want to deal with pirates in 1.0 space! This is why I pay my Caldari corporate taxes!
you pay the taxes to your corporation, not to the state, so why should the state protect you when you're not paying any taxes to them?
The corp is mother, the corp is father.
The little badger that could |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.01.16 23:21:00 -
[227]
Originally by: BurnHard
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
How is it illegal for the lemurs...uhh, victims of a wardec to run away? Other than disbanding and reforming an identical corp, I can't think of any examples of what you mean.
Yes, thats what I mean by illegal.
Be fair about it. That leaves at least 4 other ways to "run away" I can think of that aren't exploits.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Strel Samodelkin
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.01.16 23:30:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Chimu Quien
Originally by: Malicia Skirj
Uh..."Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Salvor Hardin
Sorry...I just couldn't resist. Foundation series flashbacks.
A tip of the hat to you, fellow Foundation fan! You beat me to it!
That is my favorite sci fi series of all time. They should make a movie trilogy.
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Strel Samodelkin
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.01.16 23:39:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Apophis Omega
Originally by: Strel Samodelkin
Originally by: EnglishBob
I'll give you three posts before someone mentions WoW.
I don't care for WoW either, but as a Caldari citizen with high Caldari faction, I should be able to be provided with Concord protection AT LEAST in 0.5 space and above.
What stops this from doing what the so called "Privateers" from cycling corps in and out of their alliance, so they can gank other, smaller, corporations at will?
This is a really bad mechanism, and it has to change.
Some free advice
Quit eve now, I MEAN NOW.
If you don't like it, leave eve. No one will change this, you will be flamed. This is how eve was meant to be. You are avoiding PVP by hiding in a noob corp.
You are the type of person who whines when he loses his mining barge in 0.0 because the PVP wasn't consentual.
Just quit eve, no really, please do.
Anything goes in 0.0, son. I'm talking about the lack of protection in 1.0 here.
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Strel Samodelkin
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.01.16 23:40:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Jarling Fang
Originally by: Strel Samodelkin
...wars should only be declared if BOTH sides declare war on each other. It should be CONSENTED.
I'm sure Poland was thinking the same thing when the Wehrmact came crashing through their border... or the Americans while Japan was bombing Pearl Harbor
Hey, at least EvE gives you 24 hours warning before the shooting starts - be thankful for that much!
Fair enough. But whats with the 24 hour timer before my roles in the corp are unassigned?
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BurnHard
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Posted - 2007.01.16 23:44:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Originally by: BurnHard
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
How is it illegal for the lemurs...uhh, victims of a wardec to run away? Other than disbanding and reforming an identical corp, I can't think of any examples of what you mean.
Yes, thats what I mean by illegal.
Be fair about it. That leaves at least 4 other ways to "run away" I can think of that aren't exploits.
Well, yes, but this just happens to be the path of least resistance. It just so happens that it's easier to beam yourself into another corp than to beam your entire corp into another part of the galaxy, especially if you are running agents, not to mention the given increased risk of moving anything through empire in those circumstances.
As for fighting the attackers, can I say, HAHAHAHA. But only because they make a living out of PvP'ing, whereas, those wardecced probably don't.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.01.16 23:58:00 -
[232]
Originally by: BurnHard
Well, yes, but this just happens to be the path of least resistance. It just so happens that it's easier to beam yourself into another corp than to beam your entire corp into another part of the galaxy, especially if you are running agents, not to mention the given increased risk of moving anything through empire in those circumstances.
Ehh, your definition of "easy" and the importance you place on it is different than mine I guess.
Quote:
As for fighting the attackers, can I say, HAHAHAHA. But only because they make a living out of PvP'ing, whereas, those wardecced probably don't.
We were talking about running rather than fighting though. But since you brought it up, yeah, at the extremes it's pretty much hopeless. A complete noob corp isn't going to fight off a determined group of experienced PvPers who are focused on tearing them apart. Fortunately the extremes are rare though, as there's not much reason for that determined group of experienced PvPers to call that Wardec in the first place.
At less than the extremes, it's not hopeless, not by a longshot. People like to say it is though, mostly I think because they are used to other games and don't know any better.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
BurnHard
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Posted - 2007.01.17 00:09:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
[
We were talking about running rather than fighting though. But since you brought it up, yeah, at the extremes it's pretty much hopeless. A complete noob corp isn't going to fight off a determined group of experienced PvPers who are focused on tearing them apart. Fortunately the extremes are rare though, as there's not much reason for that determined group of experienced PvPers to call that Wardec in the first place.
At less than the extremes, it's not hopeless, not by a longshot. People like to say it is though, mostly I think because they are used to other games and don't know any better.
Sure but look at it from a more pragmatic point of view. If all your corpies do all day is agent missions or run factories servicing some given market or something like that, then damned right it's not so easy to move somewhere else, especially when all you have to do to avoid it is exit the corp for a while.
Anyway the point to all this is that it's fun for one group of players and not fun for the other group - yet both groups have a goal in-game and that goal is probably to enjoy themselves in whatever way they prefer. This is why the two things are somewhat mutually exclusive.
However, ultimately if you have good leadership you might prefer one of the alternatives; you might even enjoy fighting, but more than likely only if the corp is prepared to pay for all the stuff you lose, including your +5s ;). Now, as most CEO's see the corp wallet as pretty much their own, in most cases you'll end up having to quit to NPC if you want to weather the storm.
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2007.01.17 01:33:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Chimu Quien
A lot of people like you see this as some sort of macho Darwinian struggle that teaches something about real life. It isn't. None of this stuff is real. It's just entertainment. A game. It's nothing more than a pleasant way to pass one's free time.
That doesn't alter the fact that the game mechanics are designed to promote competition at every level.
Anyone who pretends that they can avoid affecting and being affected by other players is deluding themselves.
This is the point you keep avoiding with straw man arguments and pretense.
Originally by: Chimu Quien
Originally by: Chimu Quien
I don't expect or necessarily want the game to be changed to reflect their desires, but their opinions are valid ones and its just plain rude to keep screaming at them 'adapt or get out!!!'
There is room in Eve for everybody.
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
There is room in Eve for everybody that understands the game.
Well, unless you work for CCP and are planning to boot me out of the game or pull the plug on the game entirely, you're wrong. I've been here for a long time, and will continue to play Eve.
I don't need to. The game mechanics you dislike are in place and will remain in place for as long as Eve remains a competitive game.
Originally by: Chimu Quien
It's a big game universe. Somewhere out there are players who approach the game differently than you. As long as they are not telling you what to do and how to think, why should you care?
I don't care, provided they don't come on here to whine that the game needs to be fixed 'cause they got their **** blown up.
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Is there anything other than ISK you might be interested in? |
Depp Knight
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.17 10:31:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Strel Samodelkin
So let me get this straight, if I join a corp, another corp can just "declare war" (Privateers) on my corp, and attack my members, and I would NOT receive Concord protection? WHY?!
Thats not good. Its why I'm not in a corp right now. I have a really great idea for a Caldari corporation with a "profit sharing" concept that would make it very successful!
Corp wars should only be declared if BOTH sides declare war on each other. It should be CONSENTED.
Better yet, Concorde should protect the corp that does not want to go to war.
Agree or disagree?
You come out as such a cry baby. Mate its a pvp game. Find other corp friends, form an alliance. Make someone think twice before war decking you.
This saying is said everywhere in this game
There is no SAFE zone in eve. If what you saying came true, the market vanishes, the polictics go, the game will die.
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Aphotica Raven
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Posted - 2007.01.17 12:20:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Strel Samodelkin
Originally by: TheAwakening
So you're not going to join or form a corp, INCASE privateers war decs you?
Ever thought about just flying under the radar and doing it rather than drawing all this attention to yourself?
Yes. Someone I know formed a corporation a month ago. They already got war declared on them, and have lost several transports. In secured space.
Current system DOES NOT work.
Is that your main character?
If you do make a corp, i will wardec you, and i will endevour to wipe said corp out.
Your whinging is rediculous, find another game, we dont need people like you wasting server resources and clogging the forums with your crap.
Get used to eve the way it is, theres plenty of ways for you to be a *****, im sure you're aware of them.
Stay in the noob corp and waste your time in eve.
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Aphotic Raven
Gallente
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.01.17 12:31:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Strel Samodelkin
Originally by: TheAwakening
So you're not going to join or form a corp, INCASE privateers war decs you?
Ever thought about just flying under the radar and doing it rather than drawing all this attention to yourself?
Yes. Someone I know formed a corporation a month ago. They already got war declared on them, and have lost several transports. In secured space.
Current system DOES NOT work.
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BurnHard
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Posted - 2007.01.17 12:46:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Depp Knight
Originally by: Strel Samodelkin
So let me get this straight, if I join a corp, another corp can just "declare war" (Privateers) on my corp, and attack my members, and I would NOT receive Concord protection? WHY?!
Thats not good. Its why I'm not in a corp right now. I have a really great idea for a Caldari corporation with a "profit sharing" concept that would make it very successful!
Corp wars should only be declared if BOTH sides declare war on each other. It should be CONSENTED.
Better yet, Concorde should protect the corp that does not want to go to war.
Agree or disagree?
You come out as such a cry baby. Mate its a pvp game. Find other corp friends, form an alliance. Make someone think twice before war decking you.
This saying is said everywhere in this game
There is no SAFE zone in eve. If what you saying came true, the market vanishes, the polictics go, the game will die.
You do make me laugh with all your "Game Will Die!", "Market will vanish!", "Politics will go!" rubbish. Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds? No, the game won't die. No the market won't vanish and no the politics won't go. Concentrate on this specific problem, don't over-analyze it until it becomes absurd.
When it comes to wars, there is something wrong with the system - not in implementation, but in the way it's being used by certain corps/alliances. It is nothing to do with politics, the market or PvP. It's plainly to do with picking easy targets - and directly interfacing two play-styles, both supported within the game, but which are mutually exclusive. The solution for those easy targets is to disband/run (the former being considered an exploit). Now there is something wrong in this mechanism that is more game-breaking than anything else.
Now as with a lot of things in Eve in the past, a minority of players have abused certain aspects of the game precipitating a nerf or change in mechanics for EVERYONE. You should be careful lending these players your unqualified support because if past experience is anything to go by, the precious war-dec mechanism will get hit with the bat. Yes the majority of players live with it, enjoy it - but like I say, it's always the minority who spoil it for the rest.
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Nathaniel Hull
Caldari
Finis Lumen
The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2007.01.17 19:27:00 -
[239]
Strel do not dishonor yourself as a caldari.
and your DUCK offends me deeply. ....stupid ducks
and oh yeah if you dont like war just hide eventually the other corp wont pay money to hunt nothing.
lastly ur ceo as moronic as he may be should be notified of the war so if he doesn't inform the corp well......it is indeed time to join a new corp.
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Mar Idoun
Aurora Empire
Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
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Posted - 2007.01.17 19:49:00 -
[240]
thank god something like this will never be taken seriously by anyone tbh. Not the community and not the devs. It goes against what Eve is.
for clarification:
Eve is a game of competition.
Eve is a game of combat.
Eve is a game of you against others.
Eve is about Making that ISK despite this competition and then taking those who are competing for the same isk and chopping them down at the knees and laughing at them as they move to another region.
Eve is about that extra level of ME that makes it that much easier to undercut the best price in region or that extra 0.045 damage modifier that saves your ship and leaves the other in a pod crying for his mother and whining on the forums that blasters need to be nerfed.
any arguement about politics crashing just shows that you haven't been around for very long or you've just ignored everything. Eve has been around for over 3 years and it's been like this and the economy is doing just fine.
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