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Imbalance ... the Nano-Inertial Battleships

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Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat	Posted - 2007.02.11 06:17:00 - [811] Edited by: Tom Gunn on 11/02/2007 06:22:03 Originally by: Aramendel Wrong. You base your argument of incorrect facts. You say that nanoBS are ok because one t2 cruiser and ceptors can be made faster than it. However you totally ignore that - unlike nanoBS - they cannot do anything involving weapons at these speeds. If your going to call people out on who's actually right and wrong on any debate as opposed to accepting a differing of opinion, you better sure as hell make sure you've got your own facts right - which i hasten to add, you haven't. I also don't appreciate you putting false words into my mouth - while i've used them as examples (since their descriptions have been used multiple times in the past by other posters), at no time have I said only inties and vagabond can go faster than nano BS's - those are your words, not mine (words that are quite false I might add). Not just inties and vagabonds can achieve speeds faster than a nano BS - there are several ships can go faster than nano BS's if you fit them for speed, don't go calling others incorrect when your posting blatent falsehoods on the thread yourself. I'll also add that some of those ships also use trackless weaponary, meaning that the typhoon does not share a setup that is mutually exclusive with the crow. You also seem to miss the entire point i made - i'm not sure if that was a mistake, or your just repeating a reply to an argument over and over again but thats not what i get at in my earlier post. This in no way means battleships should be solo pwn mobiles as you comment, and as anyone who goes out regularly and pvp's knows, battleships are far from this, there are many many modules and ships that can be used in a variety of ways to avoid/mitigate or reduce damage, down to completely negating it with things varying from ecm, dampning, to just plain and simple avoiding optimal range, velocity or reducing sig radius etc. As for 'meaningless speed' - if you can't think what use an inty or another ship has going over 10k m/s, then i'd go hang out in some inty gangs. I sure as hell find a use for my speed, and i've yet to hear a single gang member i'm grouped with turn around and say 'geez, can we get someone without skirmish warfare as gang leader, i'm going too fast'. As for your conclusion, no that isn't the only viable solution - its the only viable solution that you post and just happen to think is right. Your wrong if you honestly believe that claim, and yes, it comes over as very 'trollish' when you post something like that then claim another view is wrong because they don't agree with your solution. There is more than one way to boil an egg or in the case of eve, weaken a configuration. Its a shame if your truely unable to see that.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.11 06:42:00 - [812] Originally by: Tom Gunn Not just inties and vagabonds can achieve speeds faster than a nano BS - there are several ships can go faster than nano BS's if you fit them for speed. And I am sure you would not mind sharing with us the ships and setups that acieve this. As well as the way that they reach 11000 hit points and ~500 DPS. [quote[This in no way means battleships should be solo pwn mobiles as you comment, and as anyone who goes out regularly and pvp's knows, battleships are far from this, there are many many modules and ships that can be used in a variety of ways to avoid/mitigate or reduce damage, down to completely negating it with things varying from ecm, dampning, to just plain and simple avoiding optimal range, velocity or reducing sig radius etc. You define "solopwnmobile" as "a ship that always destroys the other ships". This definition is incorrect and obfuscates the info. It is a straman. Where as the arguement it attacks is "Nanoships are invincible and always destroy their target" when the arguement in question truly is, "Nano-battleships exist in a state where they obfuscate smaller specialized setups that do the same role, while still being stronger than any single ship in any engagement. They provide the role of interecptor, bumper, primary damage dealer, and capacitor warfare. While, at the same time being vulnerable to only a few select setups and ships, and not nearly vulnerable enough to make up for the benefits of flying a nanoship. In the majority of non-fleet combat situations there is no reason but skilled trained and money on hand to not fly a nanobattleship. As well, in the majority of non-fleet combat situations there is no reason to fly anything other than a nano-bs other than skills currently on the character over any tech 2 fitted battleship." ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.11 10:14:00 - [813] yay, I agree with Goumindong for a change :D N.F.F. Recruitment
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.11 13:15:00 - [814] Edited by: welsh wizard on 11/02/2007 13:12:25 I think all this analysis is unnecessary. It's really quite simple, the Typhoon can engage as its pleases, it either wins the fight, leaves or stands a miniscule chance of death just like a Crow. The difference is that it has battleship hitpoints and battleship firepower. Thats why its broken, nothing else matters. It ****es on risk versus reward. End.
SLAPNUTZ	Posted - 2007.02.11 21:16:00 - [815] i started using thenanophoon over 3 months ago as ppl out there will recognise its a fun ship but imo its no longer that uber as the suprise factor of it has now gone as every tom **** and nooby has one or a variant its good for ferrying my bpo's fast but i fnd its inability to tank to be a good enuff reason to not use it anymore plus there easy to stop or slow down but i aint gonnatell you how and 4k ms nah that exageration happy hunting
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.12 00:27:00 - [816] Originally by: SLAPNUTZ i started using thenanophoon over 3 months ago as ppl out there will recognise its a fun ship but imo its no longer that uber as the suprise factor of it has now gone as every tom **** and nooby has one or a variant its good for ferrying my bpo's fast but i fnd its inability to tank to be a good enuff reason to not use it anymore plus there easy to stop or slow down but i aint gonnatell you how and 4k ms nah that exageration happy hunting Sorry mister leet, my phoon goes 7k/s, want screenshots with that? You don't really know what you are talking about, do you? N.F.F. Recruitment
Shadowraven213 Caldari Madison Industrial Co. Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.12 01:24:00 - [817] 27 pages and no dev has posted? /me starts to setup his speedgank raven
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.02.12 01:51:00 - [818] Originally by: SLAPNUTZ 4k ms nah that exageration happy hunting Actually Moleh has (or had) a phoon that went 10km/s. He was the #1 tackler for our fleet. It was unbelievable to watch. He was so fast the interceptor tacklers waited for him to get close and warped to him. Nyxus PS- I have seen a crow do 26km/s (prolly similar implants & setup to moleh) but they are just so fragile and do so little dps you don't see many of them. The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.12 01:57:00 - [819] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: SLAPNUTZ i started using thenanophoon over 3 months ago as ppl out there will recognise its a fun ship but imo its no longer that uber as the suprise factor of it has now gone as every tom **** and nooby has one or a variant its good for ferrying my bpo's fast but i fnd its inability to tank to be a good enuff reason to not use it anymore plus there easy to stop or slow down but i aint gonnatell you how and 4k ms nah that exageration happy hunting Sorry mister leet, my phoon goes 7k/s, want screenshots with that? You don't really know what you are talking about, do you? Must not, 4km/s is tech 2 max relevent skills with no implants, no skill hardwiring, and no gang bonuses. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.12 02:20:00 - [820] Edited by: Aramendel on 12/02/2007 02:22:44 Originally by: Goumindong Must not, 4km/s is tech 2 max relevent skills with no implants, no skill hardwiring, and no gang bonuses. Well, actually it's around 5.5 km/s for a nanophoon with 5 t2 nanos, 2 LH instabs and t2 MWD and 12 km/s for the best of the best faction MWD and max implants (including full HG snakes and Shaqils 8% speed implant). 3 t1 vents and maxxed skills of cource for both. Although such a setup won't be able to fit 4 heavy nos and 4 siege launchers and using t2 nanos might be considered faction equipment, at least in price. /edit: and for ****s and giggles, 14.5 km/s with 3 t2 vents. 20 km/s with the full gang bonus from a skirmish mindlink of a maxxed claymore pilot. Now THAT will be a fast phoon.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.12 02:31:00 - [821] not sure, last time i checked t2 nano's werent that expensive. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Shamhutante	Posted - 2007.02.12 02:40:00 - [822] WHen I started playing this game a few years ago, Inties could outrun 'most' missiles (all but rocket/standards/maybe heavies) while orbitting a 'tackled' BS, the missile changes awhile ago nerfed this and ever since then the great crusade for stupendous speed was undertaken! I'm sure there wasn't this hue and cry or calls for "Nerf the missiles" The 2 main ships for this 'abuse' are the Nos-Domi and Phoon, Phoon being favourite for its missiles.. (and to be honest, you don't need seige launchers, rigs and uber implants, you can make it "effective" with cruise missiles and virtually no cost!)The Phoon really has NO OTHER ROLE in this game! If you want to Nerf-bat the Nanno-Phoon, you really need to Nerf-bat all 'never-miss' missiles (which will of course gimp the Crow!)
Gioto	Posted - 2007.02.12 05:32:00 - [823] i dont want it nerfed. a gank can tear it apart, people are just threatened by it. plus i like my nanos, dont want them nerfed
mematar Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.02.12 07:34:00 - [824] I tried against a Nanophoon with my Sleipnir. It just didnt stand a chance, I tore it apart with 720mm II. Tracking wasnt a problem at all. Ideal gang that should catch a nanobs any day: Jammer ship (Rook, Falcon, Scorp or similiar), Gisti Crow and some long range damage dealer (Tempest, Sleipnir, Muninn?). Scorp jams, Crow tackles, Tempest shoots the **** out of it. No chance for the Phoon, no chance. Like many have stated, people who blob dont like the fact that someone can actually survive their blob instead of just getting ganked horribly.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.12 08:02:00 - [825] Originally by: mematar I tried against a Nanophoon with my Sleipnir. It just didnt stand a chance, I tore it apart with 720mm II. Tracking wasnt a problem at all. Ideal gang that should catch a nanobs any day: Jammer ship (Rook, Falcon, Scorp or similiar), Gisti Crow and some long range damage dealer (Tempest, Sleipnir, Muninn?). Scorp jams, Crow tackles, Tempest shoots the **** out of it. No chance for the Phoon, no chance. Like many have stated, people who blob dont like the fact that someone can actually survive their blob instead of just getting ganked horribly. 3 Nanophoons does the job better. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.12 08:22:00 - [826] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: mematar I tried against a Nanophoon with my Sleipnir. It just didnt stand a chance, I tore it apart with 720mm II. Tracking wasnt a problem at all. Ideal gang that should catch a nanobs any day: Jammer ship (Rook, Falcon, Scorp or similiar), Gisti Crow and some long range damage dealer (Tempest, Sleipnir, Muninn?). Scorp jams, Crow tackles, Tempest shoots the **** out of it. No chance for the Phoon, no chance. Like many have stated, people who blob dont like the fact that someone can actually survive their blob instead of just getting ganked horribly. 3 Nanophoons does the job better. Wrong, first of all all of those 3 nanophoons must be able to go faster than the phoon they are trying to catch. It's a lot easier and cheaper to make a fast crow than a fast nanophoon. So, that means that those 3 ships (crow, dmg dealer, scorp), will be a lot cheaper than that one nanophoon. 3 Nanophoons can't deal damage, unless one of them has web, also, provided they can catch up to the nanophoon they're chasing. I was tackled with my nanophoon by 2 nanophoons + 10 man gang with skirmish warfare mod so they went faster than me. Guess what, I selfdestructed before they got me. So please don't make bold statements. And actually to kill phoon solo you need: 1x huginn with 28km scram + istabs/rigs... But you only pvp on the forums, you wouldn't know N.F.F. Recruitment
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.12 10:41:00 - [827] I dont see how they are worse, they arent prone to missing a jam, they cant be NOS'd to death, you cant run away from them as easily, etc etc. In a nano game its whose cap lasts the longest, and the larger blobs cap will last longer. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2007.02.12 10:59:00 - [828] I don't think it should be nerfed. Instead they should break it up and make there be a 3tier system like afterburners and mwds. Have nanos and inertials have a frigate sized ones, cruiser sized and battleship sized. Only makes sense. The same module shouldn't be changing say 10000lbs in a frigate and then pop it into a battleship and it's a 1,000,000 lbs. Pop a 1mn afterburner into a cruiser and it'll give you an extra 10m/s this is how it should work for nanos-inertials. Then on top of that. At such speeds vampires and such should be rendered useless. Just like as if you had large turrets on there. They wouldn't hit crapppola. Personally I've been ratting and nanophoon came in to kill me. Unfortunately for him I had about 15 friends who basically immediately came to my rescue. None of them could actually touch him. Our elite frigates couldn't even catch up to him after he fled away. I sold his 5 heavy tech 2 drones for quite a bit. His loss for being an idiot.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2007.02.12 11:01:00 - [829] ALSO. If he didn't have a nanophoon he would have had something else just as deadly. The difference being is that he would have been caught and destroyed without being able to flee off to 300km away in like 10 seconds.
Pry Maraai Amarr Unseen University	Posted - 2007.02.12 11:31:00 - [830] Battleships orbiting in speeds over 5km/s ruins the game in several ways imho. - The illusion of mass and size is gone the second you see a typhoon accelerate and spin like a paper kite. - Interceptors have no longer any role. Why spend time skilling for T2 ships, when a BS can do the job a lot better. It looks really funny when small gangs are using 2 battle ships for tackling and battlecruisers for damage. - They are too hard to counter (not impossible though). You need a gang to specially setup to counter them, or you have to have a lot more ships than them. (minnie recons should be popular soon) - They are too easy to fly. Everyone flies a forum recipy nanophoon today. Not because they allways loved the minmatar ships, but because they know its free kill mails. And if you feel like you might be in trouble, just run away and lose nothing. I think it should be possible to achieve speeds like 4-5km/s in a battleship. But that should take every trick in the book, snakes, besta nanos/i-stabs and everything. And even then the handling should be apropriate for a huge mass in a zero friction environment. ηβπ
retzki	Posted - 2007.02.12 11:40:00 - [831] Originally by: hotgirl933 its a fun ship its balanced not many can fly em fun ship -> maybe. balanced -> Haha. No. not many can fly em -> Haha. No. Dunno where you come from, but we see nanoships all day. Small ships which fly <5000m/s are rare. It is idiotic - and by far not balanced in any way.
Capt Dirk	Posted - 2007.02.12 11:50:00 - [832] Edited by: Capt Dirk on 12/02/2007 11:48:18 Originally by: Anila's Delight another thread on this? Its an imaginative setup created by someone who has the skills to fly it. If CCP nerfed everything when someone posted NERF THIS AND NERF that eve would be very boring. Someone has created an immaginative setup that is popular because it is effective whilst soloing. Its good, but not perfect. There is bound to be some kind of weakness and it encourages new tactics to be defeated. People just dont like it because they cant have it for themselves or dont like something different that they cant beat. The good thing about set ups in eve is that you never know what to expect. Before you flame me, no, i dont have the skills to fly one. Very true its really just a good solo gank ship but has its weaknesses, a good bs can tank it all day long 4 darkblood? wah, rigs have made big changes in ship setups triple armor reps, cap rig etc people just simply have to adapt, nerfing the nanos or itertias is wrong and yes im flying the damn thing q=)
Starlinger	Posted - 2007.02.12 11:56:00 - [833] Where ir really a problem? Make a gatecamp behind gate! Must have one gangmebmer in covert op cloaked ship be before gate un typed in gang chat few chars as sign that nanoship come and jump through. Gang behind gate make a warp buble and prepare use 2..4 webs... and nanos die. P.S. sorry for use alt
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2007.02.12 12:16:00 - [834] Originally by: Starlinger Where ir really a problem? Make a gatecamp behind gate! Must have one gangmebmer in covert op cloaked ship be before gate un typed in gang chat few chars as sign that nanoship come and jump through. Gang behind gate make a warp buble and prepare use 2..4 webs... and nanos die. P.S. sorry for use alt Nano will MWD back to gate with no problem. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.12 12:43:00 - [835] Originally by: Capt Dirk a good bs can tank it all day long 4 darkblood? wah, rigs have made big changes in ship setups triple armor reps, cap rig etc It is quite possible to rig a BS so it reps have a 52% higher effeciency, just like they can boost it's MWD effeciency by 52%. However, reps do not work well when all cap has been nossed. Also, high speed is a better maximum dps tank as reps. If one ship cannot hit you 10 ships cannot either. If you can rep the dps of 1 ship you usually cannot rep that of 10. And lastly, IMO the drawback of speed rigs is a joke. The max armor penality does not really hurt them - the speed penality of armor rigs however...
Starlinger	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:01:00 - [836] Originally by: Aki Yamato Originally by: Starlinger Where ir really a problem? Make a gatecamp behind gate! Must have one gangmebmer in covert op cloaked ship be before gate un typed in gang chat few chars as sign that nanoship come and jump through. Gang behind gate make a warp buble and prepare use 2..4 webs... and nanos die. P.S. sorry for use alt Nano will MWD back to gate with no problem. Why? 3 or 4 webs (90% slow down) that reduce speed totally by 99% make even nanoship moving 70m/s that is 1% from 7000m/s ... and nanos haven't tank.
Jitterian	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:08:00 - [837] so .. the description for nanos ... "replaces parts from the hull with lighter stuff " .. now how much can u really take out until u will see through ur hull , stack'em . and lets say u are in ur ferrari on the highway at top speed and sudenly an nano-bus outruns u by far and u eat his dust . interceptors outrun by battleships .. come on thats all :) yes i am against nano ships
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:36:00 - [838] Originally by: Starlinger Why? 3 or 4 webs (90% slow down) that reduce speed totally by 99% make even nanoship moving 70m/s that is 1% from 7000m/s ... and nanos haven't tank. Next time maybe try something out before posting. Or looking through the thread. This has been posted x times already before. Webs do not decellerate a ship instantly. Even if you have a sensorboosted minnie recon it will take at least 3 seconds to activate the webs (1 sec uncloaking lag, 1 sec targeting, 1 sec web module lag). By that time the nanoBS will already have already multiple km/s and will be at least halfway to the gate. Then it will slow down...slowly. Not fast enough to make it stop before it reaches jump distance.
Geld Ned	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:46:00 - [839] I don't want to die to a 50 vs 1 fight. Any ship should die in a 50 v 1 fight. You making this statement again proves my point. Nano setups are VERY difficult to kill... and you are flying an expensive setup around because you understand that fact. Thanks. ===== Well any ship should die. Ok. Only swith off "friendly fire" and make explosions hurt for all be close. I guess it makes a game and a role of inties more fun. Especially for those 50vs1 lovers.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.02.12 14:03:00 - [840] Originally by: Christopher Dalran Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 08/02/2007 21:52:48 * !IMPORTANT! * STEP BY STEP ANTI NANO/I-STAB INSTRUCTIONS This is a little trick i learned a while back while trying to hit some smaller faster frigates using my large guns durring a mission a while back and it works equally well for fast orbiting battleships moving at 3 km/s +. I;ve been debating heavily keeping this information to myself but i'm concerned nano's and i-stabs might take a swing from the nerf bat if i dont release this information. First your going to need to reduce your top speed to < 25% of your max, you turn fastest at or below these speeds. Second your going to want to make sure that you have added transversal velocity to your display, if not do it as this will tell you what chance you have to hit. After you have done that you need to manually fly your ship, your going to want to have it spin around in circle almoast as if spinning like a top. Of course its not going to spin stationary but you'll get prety close under 25% max speed. To do this you instruct your ship to fly directly backwards but 1 or 2 degrees to the side you want it to spin. Keep an eye on your targets transversal, you'll notice that if you play with your max speed you can varry the speed your ship spins (slower speed = faster spin). The goal here is to try and find a target speed that makes you spin at just the right speed to match the orbiting battleship. You should notice something interresting, your targets transversal takes a nose dive through the floor. Yes you guessed correctly, your adding the rotational velocity of your ship to your turrents causing them to actually have to track much less. Coincidentally the last movie The Last Starfighter inspired me to try this. I tried this extensively around 6 months back. It didn't work then, I came to the conclusion that just as the tracking formula doesn't take in to account orbiting a stationary target, neither can it take into account rotation in trying to hit an orbiting target (I had my Megathron on Sisi travelling at 4 m/sec at various rotation rates trying to hit an orbiting frigate with Null L, prior to the tracking nerf). I'll test it again, but I'll have to say not convinced... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'

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