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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.01.23 15:27:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Troubadour
Everyone on here that is talking arguing about how the rapier and huggin will stop a nanobs is frankly beating a dead horse. They can't. There is too much inertia. Unless the rapier or huggin can go 5-7km/s and stay locked on the bs out of nos range, it isn't happening.
Amarr beamships and damping ships are the ships I fear the most in my nanodom. I went up against 2 harbingers before and about 45 seconds later found myself running away in 50% armor. They always hit because of my ****** sig and they tank pretty well themselves.
Zealots, Harbingers, some beam-geddons(with a tracking comp or 2), they all BURN without webbing or any other EW involved, but painting does help.
It was probably a tech 2 fitted pulse geddon.
That being said, "being able to drive you off" should not be the best option a group or person has.
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Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2007.01.23 15:36:00 -
[62]
Those fast ships are all fun to fly and they should still be - but game balance isn't setup to deal with 2-3k m/s Battleships (and up to 4-7k m/s with naughty stuff).
Battleships is not supposed to be faster than smaller ships based alone on number of lowslots. 1-1,5k m/s for a fast Battleship should be a maximum and handle no better than a battlecruiser.
Pinky
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Evengard
Solar Dragons
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.23 15:42:00 -
[63]
Nanos / i-stabs are just counter version of tanking and not best one...
I tested nano-phoon against tank-o-phoon and nano had no chances against me. With cruise / AC's / drons raping his shilds, he had no other options then warp away. And he barely got thorough 15% of my armor.
And also pulse lasers can hit orbiting nano-BS quite well.
So they can be used effective only vs smaller ships, snipers, or outnumbering. (and so any other BS can do great 2 vs 1)
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Recon and Intercept |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2007.01.23 15:44:00 -
[64]
Top speed nano-Battleship I've seen was a 10km/sec Typhoon albeit on Sisi, but is that really healthy for the game? especially considering large weapon systems/drones are really balanced for sub km/sec speeds... 
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Nicocat
Caldari
New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.01.23 15:44:00 -
[65]
I have found the answer to nano ships:
Medium guns.
That's right. I was startled when I was orbitting my CEO at a scant 3000m/s (my top speed in an orbit, better when going straight) at about 22km away. He was using a brutix with rails. He hit me reliably time and again with the things and eventually wore down my shields. It took a while, but he did it, reportedly with lead charges. So I thought:
Medium rails can hit at a higher orbit.
Heavy missiles still kinda hurt (more than torps do, at any rate).
Noone's tried assault launchers (not HAMs).
Medium T2 autocannons hurt like a *****.
Blasters... are still screwed.
Medium drones can catch up. Might need T2 minmatar ones, though.
Noone uses lasers, so I haven't tested them ;)
So there you have it. When fighting a ship with no tank, medium guns work fine.
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Originally by: Splagada
SEED ME DADDY
WTB: Friggin' portrait |
Manishkaa
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Posted - 2007.01.23 16:18:00 -
[66]
anyone remembers the guy asking for more speed at the fanfest and more importantly the devs expression in the face; they were just looking caught
sorry for the bad english |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.23 16:22:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Nicocat
He was using a brutix with rails. He hit me reliably time and again with the things and eventually wore down my shields.
Read "eventually". Was he doing this while getting nossed/heavy droned/torped (if phoon) by you or while you were just orbiting him doing nothing?
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
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Posted - 2007.01.23 16:48:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Popsikle on 23/01/2007 16:49:16
Originally by: Montaire
Webbing doesnt work against nano ships. Read my previous posts. No amount of drones is goign to be better than 3x Domination Webs on a Huginn
Repeat after me : Webbing is not the answer.
No matter what, they can get enough inertia to get to the gate. You will NEVER catch a nanodomi that doesnt want to fight. And dont even get me started on how horribly ineffective fighters were.
Its pretty simple really...
Use a rapier, wait for them to start to move away from the gate, decloak, lock triple web and get an inty to put a scram on it. Your not going to catch a nano ship heading to the gate, but you can catch it heading away from the gate, pretty simple I might add.
If you want to not adapt, and suck at PvP thats fine, but pvp is about evolving and learning to counter setups.
Besides, Its more of a "I dont want to fight" fit, and it does not hold its own if it does want to fight against anything BC/HAC and bigger... so Its kinda a trade off. In a nano setup you can dodge gate camps, but once your thru the camp you cant kill naything bigger then a ruppie.... |
OldPueblo
Gallente
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2007.01.23 17:03:00 -
[69]
Just run away? As someone said before, you can't catch a sniper either without the proper setup, and they can hit you without you being able to hit them. Isn't the concept the same? If you want to kill a nano-bs, attack it with another nano-bs, just like sniping a sniper. Is everyone just mad because they can't kill them? You can't touch an interceptor either if he just keeps evading you. There are plenty of setups that can't be locked down and killed, and in return they aren't very effective at fighting either. Think outside the box like they are.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.23 17:07:00 -
[70]
Because nanoBS operate within warp disrupting distance? If they couldn't keep a target from warping away I personally wouldn't have much of a problem with them.
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MrTripps
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.01.23 17:14:00 -
[71]
Of course the nanno ships need to be nerfed. Anyone who says different is A) A pilot of these ships and likes risk-free pvp or B) has never had to fight them on a regular basis and is ignorant about their lack of counters. I agree that a very expensive and very specialized ship with a highly skilled pilot should be very hard to kill. However, there should be some way to kill it. As it stands the best you can do against them is survive and pop a few of their drones before they warp off. I can't think of any other setup that has such a lack of a counter tactic. Some have been proposed here, but, as stated, they do not work in practice.
Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell |
Ryysa
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.01.23 17:15:00 -
[72]
Uhm.
Your average 2500m/s nanodomi/phoon can be stopped by webbers.
What can not be stopped that easily, is a faction pimped domi/phoon with mwd/ab speed rigs.
To clarify something, MWD/AB speed rigs don't neccessarily give you a 45% speed boost. It's a bit more complex than that.
To calculate the max speed of your ship, you need to use this formula:
(max normal speed) * (1 + (mwd maxboost * (thrust / mass)))
Now, the exact amount an mwd/ab speed rig would boost your speed by really depends on the mass of the ship. 3 mwd/ab speed rigs would multiply your max mwd speed by 1.52 (1.15^3).
So it's not quite as simple as you describe.
Mind you, mwd/ab speed rigs are a bit overpowered due to the way speed has no stacking penalties. My Core X-Type MWD gives me 1250% max speed boost.
Even without my snake set, i already tend to break 5km/s. So i'd say a non-faction / faction implant pimped phoon will start to break 4-4.5km/s by only using said rigs.
(Mine goes 8km/s).
Domis are slightly slower.
You also must remember, 3x mwd/ab speed rigs cost 150m atm on the market and are non-insurable.
My nanophoon currently costs about 600m and implants are around 1b. I could deasily invest this much isk in a pimped out faction machariel, and no nanophoon could even touch me (25% tracking bonus + autocannons + officer gear...).
So my point being right now, is that a lot of nanophoons that go 5km/s+ have faction gear and a lot of other expensive stuff.
Now... for issues with the current nanobs .
I am sure everyone remembers WCS, and the problems with them, and the way they got nerfed.
The main problem was, that while they were used for travel setups, one could fit a bunch of them and still kill things in pvp very effectively.
We have the same thing with nanobs. I remember using nanos on all my BS a very long time ago, just for travelling purposes.
So, the issue at hand is, that we have ships, which in a theoretically travel-only setup are able to kill a lot of things.
On the other hand, "the gatecamp" shouldn't be able to stop everything. There should be pvp capable ships able to escape it.
The best way to get a nanoship right now is by making a trap for it with a cloaked nanorapier and a slightly untraditional ratting setup on a raven for example (got damps?).
The second problem with nanoships, is that they are hurting role ships very bad.
There is a reason CCP made interceptors and the vagabond class HAC. These ships should be doing exactly what the nanoships are doing right now, but in squads.
As it currently stands, one nanophoon is more effective than 4-5 inties or 2 vagabonds at taking stuff down. That, while not even being a T2 ship or a ship that is meant for that role.
So, I guess we can all agree that nanobs, the way they currently are break certain things:
1) They allow travelsetups to kill large amounts.
2) They make role ships (interceptors, vagabonds) useless.
Now let's see, what makes nanobs work.
1) NOS
2) Trackingless weapons (missiles/drones)
3) No stacking penalties on agility.
NOS deffo needs a nerf, and it would kill all nanoBS setups instantly.
Drones and Missiles have been around since ages, and are fine as it is.
A Stacking penalty on agility would make nanoships a lot more vulnerable.
And now the question... Why does everyone fly nanoships?
The reason is, that game mechanics in eve are currently very broken.
"The gatecamp" which i call BvP (Blob vs Player), is an easy and skillless way to kill stuff.
Most stuff that jumps into a decently set up gatecamp always dies. Smarter people use scouts, dumber people don't.
The entire problem is, that since population in eve is increasing, so are concentrations of players on certain spots. It's nearly impossible to do small scale pvp in 0.0 anymore without getting chased by "the blob".
All in all, I'd say that nanoships are a combination of broken game mechanics in a broken environment.
Jamming & Logoffski |
OldPueblo
Gallente
The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen
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Posted - 2007.01.23 17:23:00 -
[73]
Edited by: OldPueblo on 23/01/2007 17:21:02
So seriously, why not fight a nano-bs with another nano-bs? Even if you can't catch him, that means he can't catch you right? So you've foiled his evil plot and made it less fun for him. Nothing stops anyone from doing the same thing except maybe pride. I mean what if I thought using NOS was only for pansies and real men fight with guns only? Guess what, it's my choice to not adapt to that fighting style and to get raped by a NOS boat. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just haven't seen anyone explain why they don't just fight fire with fire. If anything you at least cancel them out and then nobody has the upper hand. Also mentioned earlier was hitting them with sensor dampeners, an excellent idea I think. They can't fly all over the place because they'd never lock you. If they put drones on you, then you just kill their drones while they're flying around watching. "But I don't want to fit damps!" Well that's your choice isn't it?
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Ryysa
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.01.23 17:35:00 -
[74]
The "risk free" assertion and current counters to nanoBS.
If you want to catch a nanoBS at a gatecamp, you must be a bit smarter.
Don't let everyone just aggro the thing, have your interdictor and one EW ship not aggress (besides dropping bubble) and jump on other side of gate if said nanoship mwd's back to gate.
Once on other side, and nanoship tries to get away from gate, let interdictor chase him and web him and EW ship disable the nos ability of the nanoship. Then rest comes in for the gank...
I am not saying you should have 5+ ships to stop one ship, I am just saying that a nanoship is based on breaking through gatecamps, and a ship that is specialized to do that, shouldn't be that easy to stop.
Then again, here arises the question... should a BS which has an ability to kill things be easily able to break gatecamps?
Now about the risk free factor.
If you are a good pilot, no matter what ship you fly... if you are using the scanner it's very hard to die.
The times you die mostly, is in a bigger gang engagement, where you get called primary and you simply can not do anything to survive.
If you go out with a covops/recon/inty alt with a battleship, you won't die any more than you would with a nano bs. You might have to bail a bit earlier sometimes, but that's about it.
Also you won't be able to run past gatecamps, but currently nanobs can't do it either, he has to go back to the gate and jump back out. So he can not pass. A normal BS with a scout - the scout would tell the BS that there is a camp. An inty scout will still make it back to the gate (please don't tell me that inty is overpowered because your gatecamp can't kill inty). And the BS would never jump in. It would head the other way.
NanoBS are paper thin. If you ever get webbed, you will die... as soon as you start fighting in an environment with more than one target, it's very easy to get killed.
It requires a lot of skill to stay alive in those situations with nanobs. And i'd personally take a tanked ship over a nanoship in a bigger scale engagement.
Jamming & Logoffski |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.23 17:43:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Ryysa
3 mwd/ab speed rigs would multiply your max mwd speed by 1.52 (1.15^3).
Actually, no, they don't.
The increase the effeciency of your MWD by 52%. This isn't the same as you MWD speed, however, because on top of this speed boost you get also your normal speed. So the effective speed boost you get is less than this.
How much it is depends how large the boost from the MWD gets in percentages (and how low the ships mass gets). On a nanodomi with 2 instabs and a t2 MWD it's about 46%. On a typhoon with a core-x, 3 instabs and the 2 5% MWD speed implants the effective boost will be probably more around 50%.
For example: assume for simplicities sake a ship mass of 100k tons (for 100mn MWD = 100% effeciency), t2 MWD, lvl 4 acc con
With rigs: 100% + 550% * 1.2 * 1.52 -> 1103% of base speed
Without rigs: 100% + 550% * 1.2 -> 760% of base speed
1103/760 -> setup with rigs has 1.45 times the speed of the setup without them.
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I would agree with your general conclusions, though.
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Ryysa
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.01.23 17:51:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Ryysa on 23/01/2007 17:51:17
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Ryysa
3 mwd/ab speed rigs would multiply your max mwd speed by 1.52 (1.15^3).
Actually, no, they don't.
The increase the effeciency of your MWD by 52%. This isn't the same as you MWD speed, however, because on top of this speed boost you get also your normal speed. So the effective speed boost you get is less than this.
How much it is depends how large the boost from the MWD gets in percentages (and how low the ships mass gets). On a nanodomi with 2 instabs and a t2 MWD it's about 46%. On a typhoon with a core-x, 3 instabs and the 2 5% MWD speed implants the effective boost will be probably more around 50%.
For example: assume for simplicities sake a ship mass of 100k tons (for 100mn MWD = 100% effeciency), t2 MWD, lvl 4 acc con
With rigs: 100% + 550% * 1.2 * 1.52 -> 1103% of base speed
Without rigs: 100% + 550% * 1.2 -> 760% of base speed
1103/760 -> setup with rigs has 1.45 times the speed of the setup without them.
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I would agree with your general conclusions, though.
Why do you match mass etc to just support your theory?
You wrote previously:
Quote:
and more importantly MWD speed rigs. 3 of those give a 45% speed boost.
They don't. Plain and simple, they don't give 45% SPEED boost. They don't even give 45% to the MWD unless you do some number matching. Your statement was mathematically false. Please accept that you were wrong.
I outlined the formula for you, and exactly what the multiplier was.
How much the 3 mwd/ab speed rigs affect the speed is heavily dependant on mass and some other factors.
My wording was a bit incorrect, what I meant was, that they will mulitply your max mwd speed boost amount by 1.52, I'll edit my previous post to correct it.
P.S. Performing addition except of empowering could be considered a fairly grave mathematical mistake :P
Jamming & Logoffski |
Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.01.23 17:56:00 -
[77]
just nerf them, its not worth filling up the forums with pointless whines
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Hananakajima
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Posted - 2007.01.23 17:57:00 -
[78]
How fast can a nano setp go without a slave set. Afaik (could be wrong) the nano setup is dangerous till you have a snake set. Then you become too fast for anyone to hold.
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Galactic Overlord
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Posted - 2007.01.23 18:01:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Hananakajima
How fast can a nano setp go without a slave set. Afaik (could be wrong) the nano setup is dangerous till you have a snake set. Then you become too fast for anyone to hold.
Just like a ton of other ships with the same fitting concept.
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Anni Bonney
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Posted - 2007.01.23 18:07:00 -
[80]
I agree, small an dfast ships lose they role.
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Drasked
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.01.23 18:14:00 -
[81]
WTS Nano rapier, with faction mwd and a high grade snake implant set.
And besides that i can't understand why such a bad post could be made sticky, at least use one of the better written whines.. sheeees.. the person that is responsible for making this a sticky should be slapped (or killed AGAIN with a nanoship).
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Ryysa
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.01.23 18:15:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Hananakajima
How fast can a nano setp go without a slave set. Afaik (could be wrong) the nano setup is dangerous till you have a snake set. Then you become too fast for anyone to hold.
Slave set gives armour. Snake set gives speed.
Typhoon with T2 MWD, 3x MWD/AB speed rigs, 2x Local Hull Istabs, 3x Local Hull Nanos, navigation lvl5 and acceleration control lvl4 would go:
(150*1.25 + 24*3) * (1 + (5.5 * 1.25 * 1.15^3 * (150 000 000 / ((50 000 000 + 100 000 000)*(1-0.15)*(1-(0.15*0.87)))))) = 3930.76m/s
Hope this satisfies you :)
Jamming & Logoffski |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.23 18:16:00 -
[83]
I've heard the ranting, but not experienced it first hand.
Anyone feel like fitting out a 'phoon with 'freely available' stuff, and seeing how it fares? E.g. named stuff + rigs, leaving out the snakes.
I did a quick test when I realised I couldn't fly minnie BS, and got a raven clocking 2.3km/sec. Which ain't that great, but it's not that sloppy either.
So, let's have some empirical evidence please. How fast can you make your nano/istab phoon go, without snakes or faction gear.
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Ryysa
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.01.23 18:23:00 -
[84]
Originally by: James Lyrus
I've heard the ranting, but not experienced it first hand.
Anyone feel like fitting out a 'phoon with 'freely available' stuff, and seeing how it fares? E.g. named stuff + rigs, leaving out the snakes.
I did a quick test when I realised I couldn't fly minnie BS, and got a raven clocking 2.3km/sec. Which ain't that great, but it's not that sloppy either.
So, let's have some empirical evidence please. How fast can you make your nano/istab phoon go, without snakes or faction gear.
READ THE POST ABOVE YOURS? rofl.
Jamming & Logoffski |
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
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Posted - 2007.01.23 18:37:00 -
[85]
Lets nerf the armor repairers ,one time i was almost killing one guy and he managed to repairer it self.... 
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.23 18:45:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Aramendel on 23/01/2007 18:42:31
Originally by: Ryysa
Why do you match mass etc to just support your theory?
Because it is easier to make an easy-to-understand example this way.
And it is not theory, it is plain out fact. I am/was quite aware that the *effective* speed boost is not exactly 45%, but lies between 45 and 50% depending on what setup you use. I used 45% (the lower number of this range) and not 46.745262% or 50% because I didn't want to overexeggerate things and wanted to keep it simple.
But, since you insist, a "real world" example:
Typhoon, LH 4 nanos, 2 instabs, t2 MWD, lvl 4 acc con, lvl 5 navigation, 5% speed and 3% MWD effeciency implant
Base speed: 322.9 m/s ((150 + 4*24) * 1.25 * 1.05)
MWD effeciency: 679.8% (550 * 1.2 * 1.03)
Mass: 73.9k t (100kt * 0.85 * (1 - 0.15 * 0.87))
Mass with MWD: 110.9kt ((100kt + 50kt)* 0.85 * (1 - 0.15 * 0.87))
So the "real effeciency" of the MWD is 679.8% * (150/110.9) -> 919.5%. On top comes the base speed (100%) so we get a MWD Speed of 322.9 * 10.195 -> 3292. Which is exactly what happens in practise.
With 3 vent rigs MWD speed is 4838, btw, 46.9% more than without them.
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Ryysa
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.01.23 19:01:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Ryysa on 23/01/2007 19:03:47
Edited by: Ryysa on 23/01/2007 18:58:38
Nah, actually you wrote 45% at start because you did 3*15%, that's all.
You're just too proud to admit it, but it's funny how you nitpick on my numbers :)
Cute.
I will correct it to make you happy however.
Oh and it's not 4045m/s if I make the skill bonus affect the nanofibers as well, it's 4203m/s :D
So me > you still :P
Jamming & Logoffski |
Nicocat
Caldari
New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.01.23 19:02:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Nicocat
He was using a brutix with rails. He hit me reliably time and again with the things and eventually wore down my shields.
Read "eventually". Was he doing this while getting nossed/heavy droned/torped (if phoon) by you or while you were just orbiting him doing nothing?
Well, it was a fire test. I was orbitting him and nossing him, and he was able to fire for a good long while. However, I would certainly hope I could out-DPS a battlecruiser with a set of sentries and torpedoes. Further, he was using lead, not something that actually, you know... hurt. Or his drones. Or a cap booster.
Now, as for the Sleipnir I tested this on, that thing ripped me apart. That hurt ;.;
My point stands, though. Get some medium guns on whatever you want to put medium guns on, and they can track and damage a nanoship, and will probably outright kill it if you web it. Considering the difference in price of a nanoship versus a couple of cruisers, I think this is a pretty valid exchange.
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Originally by: Splagada
SEED ME DADDY
WTB: Friggin' portrait |
Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
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Posted - 2007.01.23 19:09:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Jet Collins on 23/01/2007 19:10:45
Originally by: Montaire
Ahh thank the gods that Mematar FINALLY came to our rescue!
These are the things I personally have tried multiple times. Please pick an item NOT on this list and tell us your VAST experience in defeating nano-inertial ships.
1. Webbing
2. Bumping
3. Nos-ing
4. Shooting with Missiles
5. Shooting with Projectile Guns
6. Shooting with Hybrids
7. Shooting with Drones
8. Using fighters
9. Small, Medium and Large warp disruptor bubbles
10. Interdiction spheres
I for one am SO GLAD you have come to our rescue. I eagerly await your enlightening response.
*snip* - removed reference to deleted post. -Ivan K
Sorry but you sound like are one of the large gate campers. So what your complaining about is that there is finally a ship that can avoid large gate camps?
Ohh heaven forbid.
You say webbers do not work at a gate. Ok sure. anyone hour there tried going after a I-stab phoon in a cloaked reaper? Get right ontop of him uncloak and web.
Just wondering will the phoon people able to get <24 km away from the reaper before the webbers slow it down to speeds that he will eb ripped apart.
Also the sensor dampeners seem like a pretty good opption to me as well.
I think people just need to think out of the box a little more.
Dynamic Endeavors is now Recuiting.!!
Contact me in game for deatails about the corp.
Mostly a PvE corp, with Jump clones avaiale in Empire and 0.0. |
Ryysa
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.01.23 19:22:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Jet Collins
Sorry but you sound like are one of the large gate campers. So what your complaining about is that there is finally a ship that can avoid large gate camps?
Ohh heaven forbid.
You say webbers do not work at a gate. Ok sure. anyone hour there tried going after a I-stab phoon in a cloaked reaper? Get right ontop of him uncloak and web.
Just wondering will the phoon people able to get <24 km away from the reaper before the webbers slow it down to speeds that he will eb ripped apart.
Also the sensor dampeners seem like a pretty good opption to me as well.
I think people just need to think out of the box a little more.
First of all, reaper is a noobship, the ship you have in mind is the Rapier.
I'd really love to see how you get a rapier on top of a nanoship, nanoships aren't really known for staying in one place very long.
What you can do, is make a small bait trap for the nanoship with cloaked mwd nanorapier, that will most likely mean the demise of the nanoship.
Jamming & Logoffski |
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