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Imbalance ... the Nano-Inertial Battleships

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Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.23 19:28:00 - [91] Edited by: Aramendel on 23/01/2007 19:30:35 Originally by: Ryysa Nah, actually you wrote 45% at start because you did 315%, that's all. You're just too proud to admit it, but it's funny how you nitpick on my numbers :) Cute. Whatever floats your boat. Quote:* Oh and it's not 4045m/s if I make the skill bonus affect the nanofibers as well, it's 4203m/s :D So me > you still :P Then you probably have another error somewhere in that calculation, the one of the sped mods is only the one I saw with a first glance. Because this is the number I got on sisi in active testing with exactly that setup. Ah, wait, let me login there again, just in case I made a dumb error (which I do ocassionally indeed, but not here so far). Jepp, still 4045 m/s. Want a screenshot? Or, lets do the math. Base speed: 277.5 m/s ((150 + 324) 1.25) MWD effeciency: 1003.8% (550 * 1.2 * 1.15^3) Mass: 73.9k t (100kt * 0.85 * (1 - 0.15 * 0.87)) Mass with MWD: 110.9kt ((100kt + 50kt)* 0.85 * (1 - 0.15 * 0.87)) Real MWD effeciency: 1003.8% * (150/110.9) -> 1357.7%. MWD speed: 277.5 * ((1357.7 + 100)/100) -> (still) 4045 Arrogance is a useful little thing, but one should never assume one does not make errors. It could be embarrassing.
Rachel Vend Gallente Zend Insurance	Posted - 2007.01.23 19:37:00 - [92] You want to know what it's really about? When people find a setup that the pvp'er's can't beat or have a hard time beating because they have to use their heads, the pvp'ers flood the forums with whines that this setup is too powerful. Look what happened with scan probes, it was the other way around, the carebears whined and whined about getting ganked in low sec in deadspace missions while the pvp'ers just said "tough luck" all of the time. The pvp'ers are now whining that they arent killing 50 people a day, but only 25 people a day. What an outrage! Give us a counter to the bubblecamps which do not include: 1. Trial account alt scout, or alt scout at all. 2. Instantly logging. 3. 500 people in gang with you to crash the system. Nanoships are the ONLY counter to bubble camps, I guess it's not fun losing victims huh. In EVE, there is no pvp. It's PVPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.01.23 19:40:00 - [93] Edited by: Ryysa on 23/01/2007 19:38:28 Originally by: Aramendel Arrogance is a useful little thing, but one should never assume one does not make errors. It could be embarrassing. There are no errors in the calculation. There is however an error between the assumed text and the calculation. In the calculation there's acceleration control lvl5 while in the text there is acceleration control lvl4. My mistake. But I suggest you check out formula first before blaming math ;) Also just to annoy you an extra tiny bit. % expr (150 + 243)1.25 * (1+(5.51.21.151.151.15(150000000/((50000000+100000000)(1-0.15)(1-0.150.87))))) 4046.3767209 % So it's 4046m/s :) At least according to the math. Meaning that eve does some rounding at some point within the calculation. You see - arrogance has nothing to do with it, teasing someone who tries to be extremely pedantic, while making a simple mistake, yet having issues admitting it has everything to do with it. I have no problem with saying I made a mistake ;) But anyhow, this thread is here not for personal grudges, but to discuss the issue at hand. And I think we both agree on the majority of the points made. Discussing decimal point precision hardly matters in this issue. Oh and, initial post edited to reflect acceleration control lvl5. Jamming & Logoffski
OldPueblo Gallente The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2007.01.23 19:46:00 - [94] Lol at math PVP.
Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.23 19:54:00 - [95] First thanks for replying. You have some real good points. 1. Im JUST FINE with there bieng ships a well run gate defense cannot stop. Im just not fine with those bieng battleships. Interceptors and ships like the Vaga give up their battleship class weapons, battleship class stats and battleship class fittings for that speed. 2. The very concept of Nanoships makes it near impossible to 'sneak' up on them. They move too fast all the time, they are never just sitting there. 3. Dont look so far down on gate defense. Most combat occurs around strategic points like gates, stations or moons. Let me assure you that you cannot let these things get behind your lines, they will wreak havoc you have got to try and stop them as soon as you see them. The closest I've ever come was with an occator trap. Set it up with a webber and a scrambler, HUUUGE lowslot armor tank (Really, it was a thing of beauty) and a energy nuet in the high slot. Even then, with a 8 man hit fleet one jump away waiting, I couldnt hold him, he moved out of my range too fast once he noticed somthing was odd (Hey, why is the barge locking me... oh crap!) He said in local "You dont see that every day" The take home today : Its okay for ships to be able to run blockades, move ludicrously fast and zip around the battlefield. Its not okay for those ships to be battleships. Originally by: Jet Collins Sorry but you sound like are one of the large gate campers. So what your complaining about is that there is finally a ship that can avoid large gate camps? Ohh heaven forbid. You say webbers do not work at a gate. Ok sure. anyone hour there tried going after a I-stab phoon in a cloaked reaper? Get right ontop of him uncloak and web. Just wondering will the phoon people able to get <24 km away from the reaper before the webbers slow it down to speeds that he will eb ripped apart. Also the sensor dampeners seem like a pretty good opption to me as well. I think people just need to think out of the box a little more.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.23 19:55:00 - [96] Originally by: Ryysa So it's 4046m/s :) At least according to the math. Meaning that eve does some rounding at some point within the calculation. Not eve, but you. The additional 0.5 in your calculation come from using the 0.87 mod for diminishing returns in your calculation, which is rounded up from the "real" 0.869119842 mod (which is probably a rounded version itself). Quote: You see - arrogance has nothing to do with it, teasing someone who tries to be extremely pedantic, while making a simple mistake, yet having issues admitting it has everything to do with it. I have no problem with saying I made a mistake ;) Yes, one only needs to prove it twice to you. Quote: And I think we both agree on the majority of the points made. Discussing decimal point precision hardly matters in this issue. Agreed there. However, I wasn't the person who started this bickering. Just because one result looks like a milkmaids calculation at first glance to you does not mean it so so.
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.01.23 19:58:00 - [97] Edited by: Ryysa on 23/01/2007 19:57:23 Originally by: Aramendel Agreed there. However, I wasn't the person who started this bickering. Just because one result looks like a milkmaids calculation at first glance to you does not mean it so so. The question who started it, is not relevant, the relevant thing is that we both went along with it, and I am sure it looks fairly amusing from a third person perspective. And I could say the same about "proving it to you twice". But I'll just leave it be, there are more important things to discuss in this thread. Originally by: Montaire The take home today : Its okay for ships to be able to run blockades, move ludicrously fast and zip around the battlefield. Its not okay for those ships to be battleships. QFT Jamming & Logoffski
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:12:00 - [98] So, back to normal responses. Originally by: Nicocat My point stands, though. Get some medium guns on whatever you want to put medium guns on, and they can track and damage a nanoship, and will probably outright kill it if you web it. Considering the difference in price of a nanoship versus a couple of cruisers, I think this is a pretty valid exchange. Yes, multiple cruisers will prolly be able to cause it some problems. What will happen in reality, however, is the nanoship killing one cruiser and then flying away was some armor damage at worst. You really need to make a dumb error to get within webbing distance by something less agile and 25% as fast as you. And, again, driving off != killing. The problem is that a nanophoon or dommi has 100% of the firepower of a normally tanked version of it while having the speed and agility of a ceptor. It has no real disadvantage. Originally by: Rachel Vend When people find a setup that the pvp'er's can't beat or have a hard time beating because they have to use their heads, the pvp'ers flood the forums with whines that this setup is too powerful. While I certainly agree that blob camps are rather boring what it is really about is balance. You don't have a ship which does twice as much dps, tanks twice as well and is twice as fast than other ships, right? Because this would wreck the balance and eventually everyone would fly this ship. Let's take a 08/15 BS setup. Good firepower, good tank, lousy speed. A nanoBS has good dps (no, it's no gankgeddon, but it has not less dps than setups without nanos of the same ship), a lousy normal tank and great speed. Which would be fine, exept that it's speed effeciently gives it a great tank too. It would be no problem if nanoBS would be an alternative to "normal" BS. But they aren't because they are way more effecient - they are a replacement.
Rachel Vend Gallente Zend Insurance	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:13:00 - [99] Originally by: Montaire The take home today : Its okay for ships to be able to run blockades, move ludicrously fast and zip around the battlefield. Its not okay for those ships to be battleships. So then it's okay as long as you can kill them with one shot anyway?
Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:21:00 - [100] No, thats not what I said. And if you have a "Kill Vagabond in 1 shot" setup your my new hero. The idea of balance is that you trade advantages and disadvantages. Vagabonds cant use large guns or 5 heavy drones. Interceptors cant use medium or large guns, and can barely field a few light drones, forget about larges. The nanoships are unbalanced because they are BETTER than an interceptor. They are BETTER than a Vagabond (Also I think Eagle and Muninn are in this "Fast Attack HAC" class) They also lack any effective counter. This is the very definition of "unbalanced" and it DOES need fixing. Originally by: Rachel Vend Originally by: Montaire The take home today : Its okay for ships to be able to run blockades, move ludicrously fast and zip around the battlefield. Its not okay for those ships to be battleships. So then it's okay as long as you can kill them with one shot anyway?

Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:24:00 - [101] I think this NanoBS thing is funny. But it should be nerfed, next thing you know...NanoDreads! ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Corp/Alliance Services
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:26:00 - [102] Edited by: Ryysa on 23/01/2007 20:22:51 Originally by: Thor Xian I think this NanoBS thing is funny. But it should be nerfed, next thing you know...NanoDreads! You need 1000mn MWD for nanodread :) The thing is, it would never be viable, because you need cynos to move them around ;) Jamming & Logoffski
Rachel Vend Gallente Zend Insurance	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:26:00 - [103] Edited by: Rachel Vend on 23/01/2007 20:23:16 Originally by: Montaire No, thats not what I said. And if you have a "Kill Vagabond in 1 shot" setup your my new hero. The idea of balance is that you trade advantages and disadvantages. Vagabonds cant use large guns or 5 heavy drones. Interceptors cant use medium or large guns, and can barely field a few light drones, forget about larges. The nanoships are unbalanced because they are BETTER than an interceptor. They are BETTER than a Vagabond (Also I think Eagle and Muninn are in this "Fast Attack HAC" class) They also lack any effective counter. This is the very definition of "unbalanced" and it DOES need fixing. Whats the effective counter to bubble camps? Remember kids: 1. No 100 man gangs 2. No alt scuts 2. No logging 4. Your in a BS.
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:27:00 - [104] Originally by: Rachel Vend Originally by: Montaire No, thats not what I said. And if you have a "Kill Vagabond in 1 shot" setup your my new hero. The idea of balance is that you trade advantages and disadvantages. Vagabonds cant use large guns or 5 heavy drones. Interceptors cant use medium or large guns, and can barely field a few light drones, forget about larges. The nanoships are unbalanced because they are BETTER than an interceptor. They are BETTER than a Vagabond (Also I think Eagle and Muninn are in this "Fast Attack HAC" class) They also lack any effective counter. This is the very definition of "unbalanced" and it DOES need fixing. Whats the effective counter to bubble camps? BBB(tm) - Bring Bigger Blob or Vagabond+Inty gang. Jamming & Logoffski
Rachel Vend Gallente Zend Insurance	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:29:00 - [105] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Rachel Vend Originally by: Montaire No, thats not what I said. And if you have a "Kill Vagabond in 1 shot" setup your my new hero. The idea of balance is that you trade advantages and disadvantages. Vagabonds cant use large guns or 5 heavy drones. Interceptors cant use medium or large guns, and can barely field a few light drones, forget about larges. The nanoships are unbalanced because they are BETTER than an interceptor. They are BETTER than a Vagabond (Also I think Eagle and Muninn are in this "Fast Attack HAC" class) They also lack any effective counter. This is the very definition of "unbalanced" and it DOES need fixing. Whats the effective counter to bubble camps? BBB(tm) - Bring Bigger Blob or Vagabond+Inty gang. So then if your SOLO, you should die 100% of the time when you jump into a bubble camp. That's nice.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:34:00 - [106] Originally by: Rachel Vend Edited by: Rachel Vend on 23/01/2007 20:26:29 Originally by: Montaire No, thats not what I said. And if you have a "Kill Vagabond in 1 shot" setup your my new hero. The idea of balance is that you trade advantages and disadvantages. Vagabonds cant use large guns or 5 heavy drones. Interceptors cant use medium or large guns, and can barely field a few light drones, forget about larges. The nanoships are unbalanced because they are BETTER than an interceptor. They are BETTER than a Vagabond (Also I think Eagle and Muninn are in this "Fast Attack HAC" class) They also lack any effective counter. This is the very definition of "unbalanced" and it DOES need fixing. Whats the effective counter to bubble camps? Remember kids: 1. No 100 man gangs 2. No alt scouts 2. No logging 4. Your in a BS. 1) Kill them all 2) Go around 3) What? You cant go around? You dont have friends? What the hell are you doing in soverign 0.0 space? You have chat channels for a reason... Originally by: Rachel Vend Originally by: Montaire The take home today : Its okay for ships to be able to run blockades, move ludicrously fast and zip around the battlefield. Its not okay for those ships to be battleships. So then it's okay as long as you can kill them with one shot anyway? If the single attack isnt blatant strawman, then sure, why not. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:37:00 - [107] Originally by: Rachel Vend Whats the effective counter to bubble camps? Remember kids: 1. No 100 man gangs 2. No alt scouts 2. No logging 4. Your in a BS. Blobs suck, but you do not make a right with 2 wrongs. One might as well ask: Whats the effective counter to nanoships? Remember kids: 1. No gangs 2. No med guns 2. Not more nosses 4. You are in a BS
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:39:00 - [108] Edited by: Goumindong on 23/01/2007 20:36:25 Originally by: Rachel Vend So then if your SOLO, you should die 100% of the time when you jump into a bubble camp. That's nice. Lets rewrite this: "So then, if you're solo, you should die 100% of the time when you jump into a larger group of ships with a tactical advantage and a system setup to catch people like you doing exactly what you are doing?" Yes, you pretty much should, unless you are in a ship that is either A "designed to get out of situations like that" or B "small and fast" For a BS this means that a full travel setup, incacable of doing much else, is nessesary to really be balanced against a larger group of people intent on stopping you from doing explicitly what you are attempting to do, and for smaller ships it means less effort to do so, but still effort. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Rachel Vend Gallente Zend Insurance	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:42:00 - [109] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Rachel Vend Whats the effective counter to bubble camps? Remember kids: 1. No 100 man gangs 2. No alt scouts 2. No logging 4. Your in a BS. Blobs suck, but you do not make a right with 2 wrongs. One might as well ask: Whats the effective counter to nanoships? Remember kids: 1. No gangs 2. No med guns 2. Not more nosses 4. You are in a BS A nanoship which is faster than his nanoship, and bring some webs.
Kristie INTAKI UNION	Posted - 2007.01.23 20:48:00 - [110] It only takes 1 Huginn to ruin a nano BS's day...nope they are not that powerful. The only ships I ever see nanoBS kill are ships with a **** poor tank or ships who are not intending to pvp. I'll keep my double large armor reps thank you ^_^

Wizzkidy	Posted - 2007.01.23 21:04:00 - [111] Originally by: Kristie It only takes 1 Huginn to ruin a nano BS's day...nope they are not that powerful. The only ships I ever see nanoBS kill are ships with a **** poor tank or ships who are not intending to pvp. I'll keep my double large armor reps thank you ^_^ Wrong 1 huginn will NOT, I repeat NOT stop a nanoBS from escaping. This tactic DOES NOT WORK (most of the time)the inersia the BS gets from the MWD means it will get away.
Kolwrath	Posted - 2007.01.23 21:08:00 - [112] Edited by: Kolwrath on 23/01/2007 21:06:42 Well Well I believe I have read all of the posts so far ... and yeah I agree with others that the nano thingy is a bit unfair. If you need four guys, all in special and specific roles, just to kill one battleship well that dosen't seem right. On the other hand its nice to see a ship that can defeat a blob bubble camp. Just my 2 cents, wouldn't a much over due NOS nerf be the simplest solution? make it so NOS effectiveness is proportional to signature radius? (like missiles i.e. bigger sig vs small sig = not really effective) This has been suggested a billion times in a billion NOS=overpowered threads, and a few times in this thread. If NOS suffered signature radius penalties then an interceptor, with its tiny signature radius, would be unaffected by a battleship class nos and thus would be able to catch and slow down a nano-whatever. Sounds like a simple solution to me. Thoughts? [edited for grammar]
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2007.01.23 21:09:00 - [113] Originally by: Wizzkidy Originally by: Kristie It only takes 1 Huginn to ruin a nano BS's day...nope they are not that powerful. The only ships I ever see nanoBS kill are ships with a **** poor tank or ships who are not intending to pvp. I'll keep my double large armor reps thank you ^_^ Wrong 1 huginn will NOT, I repeat NOT stop a nanoBS from escaping. This tactic DOES NOT WORK (most of the time)the inersia the BS gets from the MWD means it will get away. That was not what i tested out with some of my friends.But hey if you say it cant be done maybe we are all magicians :)
Rachel Vend Gallente Zend Insurance	Posted - 2007.01.23 21:10:00 - [114] Originally by: Wizzkidy Originally by: Kristie It only takes 1 Huginn to ruin a nano BS's day...nope they are not that powerful. The only ships I ever see nanoBS kill are ships with a **** poor tank or ships who are not intending to pvp. I'll keep my double large armor reps thank you ^_^ Wrong 1 huginn will NOT, I repeat NOT stop a nanoBS from escaping. This tactic DOES NOT WORK (most of the time)the inersia the BS gets from the MWD means it will get away. OH NO IT WILL GET AWAY AND CAUSE YOU ABSOLUTELY NO LOSSES OMG OMG HOW HORRIBLE!!!!
Andreya	Posted - 2007.01.23 21:12:00 - [115] Ok, i have read enough of these posts. maybe these istabs are makin gyour battleships and battlecruisers fun to fly, myself being a inty/dictor pilot, has definately not made the game more fun to me.. dealing with heavy nos is one thing, but when the damn ships are going just as fast or FASTER than and everyday inty, it makes it pretty lame for us poeple who specc'd in small ships
Rachel Vend Gallente Zend Insurance	Posted - 2007.01.23 21:13:00 - [116] Originally by: Andreya Ok, i have read enough of these posts. maybe these istabs are makin gyour battleships and battlecruisers fun to fly, myself being a inty/dictor pilot, has definately not made the game more fun to me.. dealing with heavy nos is one thing, but when the damn ships are going just as fast or FASTER than and everyday inty, it makes it pretty lame for us poeple who specc'd in small ships Make the inties faster then.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.23 21:13:00 - [117] The people saying 'Adapt or Die' are criminally out of touch with reality and apparently do not have enough sense to logically look at the issue here. The person who actually suggested that there is no problem with nano-setups because anyone can use the same setup against them is sadly lacking the ability to see the laughable reasoning (or lack thereof) with that argument. A very simple indicator for when something is out of balance in a game is when you find a ship/setup/module/etc becoming such an incredibly popular choice that it becomes a trend at the exclusion of other alternatives. This particular issue crossed that line a while back. Inertial Stabs exacerbated the problem. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Rachel Vend Gallente Zend Insurance	Posted - 2007.01.23 21:16:00 - [118] Originally by: Tovarishch The people saying 'Adapt or Die' are criminally out of touch with reality and apparently do not have enough sense to logically look at the issue here. The person who actually suggested that there is no problem with nano-setups because anyone can use the same setup against them is sadly lacking the ability to see the laughable reasoning (or lack thereof) with that argument. A very simple indicator for when something is out of balance in a game is when you find a ship/setup/module/etc becoming such an incredibly popular choice that it becomes a trend at the exclusion of other alternatives. This particular issue crossed that line a while back. Inertial Stabs exacerbated the problem. Hmm... That's funny, coming from a Caldari player. Considering all NPC runners use RAVENS, how come your not trying to get RAVENS nerfed? EVERYBODY uses Ravens to NPC and do missions in. So that must mean RAVENS are overpowered!
Gort Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.01.23 21:17:00 - [119] People, you really need to forget the "Huginn/Rapier is the answer" line of argument. I have boatloads of kills in both those ships and use one or the other almost every day -- with exceptionally good gear and good results, too. Except they won't stop a nanobs worth a hoot. Forget it. Nada. Living in a dream world, etc. etc. Based on my experience, the Op's point of view takes the blue ribbon. He's right. Forget all the whining about whining. His point is not a whine. Those ships are just broken in the game. And yes, I'm exclusively Matari spec'ed and I like speed. But not in unbalancingly insane amounts in a BS class ship. My 0.02, Gorty Low-tech sig: "When in doubt, empty the magazine."
Domalais Equilibrium LLC United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.23 21:18:00 - [120] Originally by: Popsikle Its pretty simple really... Use a rapier, wait for them to start to move away from the gate, decloak, lock triple web and get an inty to put a scram on it. 6 second timer after uncloak before you can lock. In that time the nanoship will be either A) in warp or B) 100km away from you.



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