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Imbalance ... the Nano-Inertial Battleships

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Minigin Caldari Zephyr Enterprises Inc. Astral Wolves	Posted - 2007.02.20 07:51:00 - [931] ok ima tell you all a secret... the solution to all your problems lies in a group of tackler frigs ^^''' i find the double web rifter is very effective! just make sure someone has scram on him... but really if yo uhave at least double web on him and he has mwd on then his sig rad will really screw him up!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.20 09:56:00 - [932] Originally by: Ryysa In gang with maxed claymore maybe. Should have that already with 18 km/s. Theoretical max speed for a nanophoon are 20 km/s with 5 t2 nanos/2 instabs or 22 km/s with 5 domi ODs/2 instabs.
Chirinako Caldari Legionari Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.20 14:34:00 - [933] Originally by: Topaz Skydiver Thanks to nanos and inertial stabs, something like the hurricane is actually fun to fly. And the speed fits to the optics of the ship and the race. /signed Nanophoons are a more common sight these days. Minmatar ships are designed for speed, that's how it's always been. Coming up against a Triumvarte pilot I believe was named Elliot Manchild in Querious recently, made me realise the beauty of the nanophoon when piloted well. We had a 17 man gate camp with about 6 interceptors capable of 8000m/s or MORE. Elliot Manchild jumped into us in his Nanophoon. Once he decloaked, it took him a mere 4 seconds to speed to the edge of the large bubble and initiate warp. By the time our interceptors had locked him and got within Scram range, he was out. As annoying as it was to try and counter, I couldn't help but admire the cheekyness of this ship. 1 on 1, a well fitted nanophoon would most likely eat any other battleship setup for breakfast and spit out the spare armour plating. It's annoying to try and counter, but amusing to watch.
Andreya	Posted - 2007.02.20 17:19:00 - [934] Adapt or die!?!?!?!? thats the only thing ive ever seen on these forums that actually make me angry!!!... train huggin/rapier ?! NOONE in eve shoudl have to train months to 'attempt' to stop one of these ships.. even if they can stop them they still need a gang to kill them as a huginn would die to any nano battleship/curse adpating would mean swap a few mods out to kill a certain type of ship, yes thats ok... but to train for 2 months to fly a ship who can slow it down but cannot kill it... screw that. 10.5km machariel.... 7.6km domi (who outran my speed fittted sabre then nos'd killed me) not cool, specially fo rus small ship pilots who specialized in intys and dictors
Andreya	Posted - 2007.02.20 17:34:00 - [935] and to you gusy who are saying these battleships are 'fun' to fly, im sure they are, but ever thought of the guys who have spent their whole time training interceptor skill, and are getting outran by a battleship? it sucks, and has ruined alot of fun for us. adapt? no, i shouldnt have ot stop flying a ship thats meant to be the fastest (intys) to train a battleship to keep my edge in combat (not to mention completely waste all my inty support skills, like guns and inty5)
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.02.20 20:54:00 - [936] Update: 1 Rapier, 3 intys, 2 arbitrators, 1 Domi, and a couple other piddly ships is not enough to stop my nanophoon. Hmm... maybe I DO need a nerf... ;) gg anyhoo, Axiom. Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY Down with alts! One character per account per IP!
MoLeH Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.21 04:04:00 - [937] I wish you people complaining about nanodomi's and phoons outrunning your ceptors would shut the hell up, put as much isk or effort into a ceptor and it outruns a nanoBS. as i allready stated my nanophoon does 18km/s with a claymore in my gang, but my claw without any rigs does 19.5km/s now if i add rigs im guessing i would hit 25km/s in the claw. You see that makes my claw a fair bit faster than my phoon right? now stop whining that ur craply setup cepters cant outrun or catch a well setup nanoBS, next youll be complaining that your tech 1 geddon cant beat a fully tech 2 geddon.
Neesa Corrinne Black Watch Legionnaires Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.21 06:05:00 - [938] Moleh: You totally miss the point here. In fact you miss it by such a large margin that I'm left wondering if you have paid any attention at all to this thread. I don't care how fast your ship goes. I don't care that you can make an inty go faster. The point of this thread is that Battlecruiser and Battleship class ships should not ever be travelling 4000m/s or more. It's not their role. Those of us who have a problem with this tactic have a problem with the fact that the intercepter is rendered utterly ineffective because of the fact that battleships can now attain intercepter speeds, without any of the drawbacks of being an interceptor, such as low HP's and low DPS. Also, the problem here is not chasing down these ships. Sure, I can fit an interceptor that will easily chase down a nanophoon.... when I get there I will have four heavy NOS on me, 5 T2 drones and pop like a g*****under a fat woman's stiletto's. A nanophoon warps into a gate camp? No problem, he simply waits out his jump timer while waving at us in local and then mwd's back to the gate for an easy escape. A buddy of mine put 3 faction webs on a nanophoon at a gate camp today as soon as he appeared and his inertia still carried him to the gate and he jumped. If you want twitchy who-can-click-their-mouse-faster combat, then please please go back to playing Halo and racking up headshots.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.02.22 20:23:00 - [939] I cant be arsed to read all 31 pages but IMO it should get a nerf like the dual MWD nerf some time ago. BS doing the job of ceptors and ceptors cant tackle such ships isnt the way of eve. On the other side, dont nerf clever ppl. Ship lovers click here
Myra Rodan	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:07:00 - [940] Originally by: Andreya train huggin/rapier ?! NOONE in eve shoudl have to train months to 'attempt' to stop one of these ships.. even if they can stop them they still need a gang to kill them as a huginn would die to any nano battleship/curse adpating would mean swap a few mods out to kill a certain type of ship, yes thats ok... but to train for 2 months to fly a ship who can slow it down but cannot kill it... screw that. That's ridiculous. Of course you should have to train for months to be able to effectively counter this. The pilot of the nonophoon had to train for months in order to be able to achieve that kind of speed, and you want CCP to just hand you something that will take you a day to train that will defeat it? Are you nuts? Adapting isn't just switching out equip. Adapting is thinking a way around the problem. Adapting is changing your way of thinking. Adapting is training new skills. Adapting is doing something different than what your opponent is expecting. How do you think the person who first made a nanophoon did it? He looked at many, many, many different combinations of equipment for what would be the most effective. Now it's your turn.
Mikeli Soth Gallente Alpha Initiative	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:39:00 - [941] Edited by: Mikeli Soth on 22/02/2007 21:37:37 Edited by: Mikeli Soth on 22/02/2007 21:35:58 Ok, let us put up a challenge to any who wish to take it upon themselves. You are gatecamping, and up comes a nanophoon going, lets say, 12km/s, using whatever most common build there is to get him that fast. Just for s&g, he is 100 km away and fast on his way to getting to the gate. You have 2 ships MAX that you are able to use to counter said nanoship (all the other ships are just to far away to make a difference). spend however much money you feel like on both ships. What would you use to kill this nanoship? Feel free to debate and post who takes up this challenge.
Lucius Amarriantis Amarr Ordo Occultus Deus THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:40:00 - [942] Apologies if this has been said already - but im not spending god knows how long trawling through 31 pages of whinging. Its quite simple really - a nanophoon has taken the pilot quite some time to fund and learn to fly properly and the ship that should bring them down woiuld and should require the same - and they do. Stick yourself in a curse, get recon to 5 for that 36km nos and neut range witht he sickest nos/neut bonuses of any ship to be quite frank - mwd yoourself in his general direction and laugh wholeheartedly at the ships complete lack of movement or warping out due to the fact he is completely devoid of cap - hit the nano ships where it hurts - they are more dependant on cap than a bloody gankageddon. Come on people adapt. Yeah sure there is gonna be anerf now as tux has mentioned but I feel he has done a little disservice to the game in doing so - there are always going to be ships youi cant defeat with "your own" ship - this is where team play comes in.
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:55:00 - [943] Originally by: jamesw Zomg Nano Nightmare YARR hehe... N.F.F. Recruitment
MoLeH Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.23 01:29:00 - [944] Originally by: Mikeli Soth Edited by: Mikeli Soth on 22/02/2007 21:37:37 Edited by: Mikeli Soth on 22/02/2007 21:35:58 Ok, let us put up a challenge to any who wish to take it upon themselves. You are gatecamping, and up comes a nanophoon going, lets say, 12km/s, using whatever most common build there is to get him that fast. Just for s&g, he is 100 km away and fast on his way to getting to the gate. You have 2 ships MAX that you are able to use to counter said nanoship (all the other ships are just to far away to make a difference). spend however much money you feel like on both ships. What would you use to kill this nanoship? Feel free to debate and post who takes up this challenge. Hes heading to the gate from 100km in a 12km/s nanophoon, well unless hes damn lucky and uses autopilot and theres no lag at all in the system and autopilot manages to jump him, so thats fairly unlikely the more likely option is hell bounce about 30km off, now when he turns to get back to the gate u can hit him with webs while hes turning, if u get them on him while hes turning he wont speed up anywhere near as quickly and will struggle to get to the gate, 2 webs will take a 12km/s nanophoon to somewhere around 120m/s i think, so youll probably want 3. Youll also want 4+ nos to keep his cap lowish so hes gonna run out of cap boosters, once hes slow just give him a bump away from the gate, but make sure you webber stays in range. Ok now if he is running from the gate you want a claw with a domination scrambler and propelant injection vents and a snake set, which is roughly what the phoon needs to do the 12km/s. So your claw has that gear and is doing about 25km/s i think now this is enough to keep him well out of nos range and hell outrun the cruise and drones so he wont die, and a claw should keep the mwd going constantly so its just a matter of time till the phoon uses all his cap boosters and cant use his mwd anymore cos he cant nos anyone. at this point u can bring in your buddy in a gankship with longer than 20km range. And if u get one when it attacks someone at a station or belt he can never escape so its just a case of waiting out his cap, also a bhaalgorn with 2 officer webbers and lots of nos will take down a nanophoon
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.23 10:27:00 - [945] Originally by: Mikeli Soth Edited by: Mikeli Soth on 22/02/2007 21:37:37 Edited by: Mikeli Soth on 22/02/2007 21:35:58 Ok, let us put up a challenge to any who wish to take it upon themselves. You are gatecamping, and up comes a nanophoon going, lets say, 12km/s, using whatever most common build there is to get him that fast. Just for s&g, he is 100 km away and fast on his way to getting to the gate. You have 2 ships MAX that you are able to use to counter said nanoship (all the other ships are just to far away to make a difference). spend however much money you feel like on both ships. What would you use to kill this nanoship? Feel free to debate and post who takes up this challenge. spend as much money as I want? Ok.. I use a DD.. next ? :P Seriously.. just put any MWD ship to go into its direction to collide with him... If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Akat Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:17:00 - [946] Originally by: Myra Rodan Originally by: Andreya train huggin/rapier ?! NOONE in eve shoudl have to train months to 'attempt' to stop one of these ships.. even if they can stop them they still need a gang to kill them as a huginn would die to any nano battleship/curse adpating would mean swap a few mods out to kill a certain type of ship, yes thats ok... but to train for 2 months to fly a ship who can slow it down but cannot kill it... screw that. That's ridiculous. Of course you should have to train for months to be able to effectively counter this. The pilot of the nonophoon had to train for months in order to be able to achieve that kind of speed, and you want CCP to just hand you something that will take you a day to train that will defeat it? Are you nuts? Actually, I think your nuts. It takes far less time to train to use MWD and slap on a few named nanos and istabs than it takes to train cruiser 5 AND recons. The point is, if you put enough istabs on a BS, you have the agility and speed that rivals the majority of interceptors. Start adding rigs and implants and your pretty ******* invincible unless your a complete idiot. The entire nano/istab trend pretty much makes interceptors obsolete and useless besides fast lock time.
SoldierOfJustice Kurai-Komichi	Posted - 2007.02.23 20:20:00 - [947] The nano-istab-nos combo has ruined the game. Dont tell me "adapt or die" and such comments cause they only show how much you dont want to adapt with nerfed nanos/nos. Simple facts about nano setups: 1) They have no tank so more pg for more nos (especially on nano domi) 2) They are uncatchable. Dont even start the bull**** about the minmatar recons, cause they simply wont do the job most of the time. 3) Due to their high speed I cant think of any other ship that can actully do dmg on them in close range. Cruise raven maybe? but then the dmg would be low cause of the speed factor. Lets not start a movement to keep nanos and another to nerf them. Its really easy to find what should be done if you go back and check what battleships should do, and am sure they werent supposed to be big intys for young players. The solutions to nano setups could be: 1) Nos nerf. Nos is simply way to overpowered. Takes what..... few hours to train for it even with low attributes. And having teh chance to fit many nos mods on same ship doesnt make it easier nor is it required. Guns have low dps with newbie skills but nos gets full efficiency as soon as you can use it??! hmm, that could be changed ;). 2) Nano nerf. To me it sounds too rediculous that you can keep making your battleship lighter by removing stuff from it (thats what nanos do) and then flying at highspeeds which according to physics will put even greater forces on that ship wich should result in that the ship gets destroyed cause the hull would be too weak! (dont forget teh insane speeds eve ships travel at). Nanos dont seem to work well on battleships, they simply give too much boost! 3) MWD nerf. MWD could simply be nerfed so ppl cant run it as long as they can do atm. I doubt it was supposed to be so "runnable" when the devs thought of the MWD idea. Nano battleships doing 3km/s and higher will change even teh sniper battles. If they land 200km away they simply mwd to the enemy and pwn what cant warp out in time. Welcome to the new eve where everything gets messed up ^^ I personally tested a nano domi. not a single fitting was t2, all t1 and cheap. Could do about 2km/s, with 4 heavy nos. That setup nearly costed my enemy an absolution! He couldnt shoot and even if he had the cap he couldnt track me. I personally want it to be more fair for the absolution (for example) since the man put alot of sp in that ship. Vagabonds are supposed to have highspeeds. But nano bs? I hope ccp does something about the nano ships cause the issue alrdy ruined enough ^^.
Chen Chura	Posted - 2007.02.23 21:47:00 - [948] Originally by: Montaire I have worked with my Huginn. THREE Domination Webbers, thats as good as they get. And I cant make a Nano-phoon or a Nano-Domi fight if they dont want to. They can ALLWAYS get to the gate and run. Because nothing will stop that inital burst of his MWD, near instalty getting him to 1500 meters per second. He then glide to the gate no matter how many Huginn's you have. For the sake of fun we tried catching the same one with two Huginn's (Huginni ? Huginnseses ?) - no difference. If a Nano-Ship doesnt want to fight, you are NOT going to get it to fight. And THAT is what needs fixing. Allow me to demonstrate my ignorance in things PvP. I am new to the game and only have an industry character. Question: Can the Nano ship force you to fight if you absolutly do not want to? If not then I dont see the problem... while you have the right to TRY to kill others they also have the right to TRY to run. You are not entitled to the actual kill. You are only entitled to attempt it and see if you are successful. If the Nano can FORCE you to stay and fight a lossing fight when no one can do similarly to them, then they are like god mode chosing who lives and who dies. If you can both run then the Nano is just a scavanger preying on those too stupid to chose their battles wisely. But it's not fair.... I didn't get to kill him. Life isn't fair. But I do admit that it wouldn't be a streach to make an argument for stacking nerfs on Nano's and Inertia Stabilizers... Still it isnt worth it if the only thing Nanos are hurting is someone's pride. *SO... Can Nano keep their prey from running?*
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.23 22:39:00 - [949] Not if the prey fits nos + decent tank, or wcs + tank. You can counteract wcs by bumping, but it's not too easy to bump someone until they die, if they try to warp out all the time. It's almost impossible to kill a properly set up nos dominix with a nano setup.... N.F.F. Recruitment
Darax Thulain Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.23 22:43:00 - [950] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: jamesw Zomg Nano Nightmare YARR hehe... Nanomare? Thats so old. Darax
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude	Posted - 2007.02.23 22:50:00 - [951] Nanophoons. Do I like them? Not really. Do I think they can go faster and are more agil than they should be? Hell yes! Do I use them? Yes, but mainly because PPL i go roaming with like them. Are they hard to kill? Depends on how willing you are to fight in them against decent targets. I lost 2 today to well organised gangs with webbers (not even recon). If you use them like the gatecamping carebears used to snipe with a rack of WCS and stay aligned then you are safe. So basicly it depends on the pilot you are trying to fight. Will I be upset when they are nerfed/changed or balanced? Not in the slightest as there are plenty of other fun things to fly! Will I be glad when something is done to reduce the overall top speed of all ships in general? Yes. some ships like Intis should allways go fast but with speeds of things over 10km/s now I think it's broken. Flame suit on!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.23 23:31:00 - [952] Originally by: Ryysa Not if the prey fits nos + decent tank, or wcs + tank. WCS are no real argument, because WCS work against every single other ship as well. Of cource there are ways in eve to avoid combat, but it fitting a full rack of WCS (with the tradeoff of making the ship usless for PvP) or the much loved logoffski, which works vs nanoBS just as well as against every other ship. Notice the last part of that sentence, non-ultra-survivability setups have just the same problems. If anything nanoBS are the best ship for stabbed up ships, because the only way to keep those from fleeing is bumping - which nanoBS can do best. In short, you can answer Can the Nano ship force you to fight if you absolutly do not want to? with a definite "yes". However, it is the wrong question. A nanoBS as an unique advantage, so it would also need an unique disadvantage if you want to use it as balance argument. Something which only effects them and not all ships. This makes ECM, damps and WCS no viable answers there. There the only real answer is: if you are in another BS with at least an equal amount of nos and a good tank. But this is again no real "see they are balanced" argument. Because every single other BS outfit also has their nemesis - there is none which can kill ALL other outfits. In short: it has targets it is weak against. Yes. But, again, so has every other ship/setup. The problem here is that if other ships/setups encounter their "bad" target they die in most cases. A nanosetup will flee in most cases.
Terazuk Amarr FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.24 08:04:00 - [953] MINES! Wheeeeeee oh sh... BOOOOM! -~- Take the above post seriously at your peril -~-
Felzius Gallente Phoenix Wing Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.02.24 17:45:00 - [954] Whoever is calling wcs a counter to nanoships, you're not gonna warp out with 0 cap, now are ya ^^ Just lost dominix to "return to dronebay" bug, and an ares got owned by nanogeddon and pilgrim ^^ I'm out of ships, going to bed now. bye bye
Red Crown Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.02.24 22:22:00 - [955] I think the problem is the nanofibers themselves. They make no sense. Whats next? Nanotitan? 300 M/S of sheer terror? Imagine the bumping. And well, lets try to keep it real? Would a massive battleship be going 5000 meters a second? The inertia involved would rip it apart, especially if its structure was made of cotton. "EVE is the worst MMORPG. Except for all the other ones." [KUDZU] = Coalition.
Tohmu Blackwing	Posted - 2007.02.25 10:08:00 - [956] Nano-Phoons and nano-Domis are bad for game balance. How? Consider the progression of ships in the game. Consider their ôintendedö roles. (I will ignore PvE because when you PvE, any ship can be used û I will also skip many of the classes. Frigates û small, fast, cheap. Good for tackling. Good for harassment. Good for scouting. Interceptors û same, but more of the above û except cost. Destroyers û frigate killers. Not so fast. Not very good armour. Great gank û light weapons. Cruisers û fleet support ships, still cheap but specialize in specific roles, like gank, tank, support (repping, EWAR). Battlecruisers û cruiser killers. Really, they excel at this. They are good multi-role ships, however, but they lack the speed and firepower to move very far from their intended roles. They often excel at tanking. Battleships û the king of the jungle. No need to elaborate here. NOTE: These are simplified explanations. Please donÆt bother to flame me for missing some. Ok û now consider that there is a progression of ôrolesö in this game. Light ships have their roles, heavies have theirs. If you are innovative, you can fit a ship to ôjumpö a role or two, for example: fit a cruiser for tank so that it can take on a BC. (1 role jump) fit a BC for massive tank so that it can outlast a BS. (1 role jump) Fit a cruiser for speed to act as a heavy tackler. (2 role jumps) So, you can see ships that can move one or two ôrolesö from their designed purpose (I use this term lightly, the game encourages flexibility û and that is a good thing). Again, I did not try to include ALL of the possible innovative uses for ships in the game. Now lets look at the nano-phoon. You take the heaviest non-capital ship in the game (BS) and slap on a few mods and poof you have an instant interceptor û jumping 4 roles! This is clearly absurd. The most common arguments go something like this: 1.ôThese people have taken the time to train the skill to fly a ship like this û give them a break! If you donÆt like it û train up the skills to fly one yourself!ö Orà. 2.ôEvery time someone comes up with something innovative, it gets nerfed! DonÆt nerf this innovation û it is fun!ö Orà 3.ôThese ships cost a lot and if they lose one, it is a significant investment!ö Orà 4. ôI finally have a ship that I have fun with!ö (read as: I can own s**t in this ship. DonÆt take it away from me!) à 5.Or my personal favourite: ôJust train Minmatar!!!ö Contintued...
Tohmu Blackwing	Posted - 2007.02.25 10:09:00 - [957] .... continued... There are a number of problems with these arguments: 1.I might be inclined to agree with you except for one problem û not every race in the game can do this. THIS IS UNBALANCE. If you want to allow such a massive jump in ship roles, then you cannot limit them to one or two races. This is simply just too big of an advantage for one race of ships (here is where the Minmatar fanbois start to flame). But before you flame me just consider if the shoe was on the other footà oh waità IT WAS ONCE. I have not been in the game long enough to see this in person, but I have talked to people who have used something called the ôCavalry Raven.ö Fit multiple MWDs on a Raven, the speed boost stacksà. Instant ô4-role jumpingö, tanking, missile spewing death. People complained û it was nerfed. It was clearly a game mechanic exploit that provided a clear advantage to one race of ships (Ravens are the king of missile hell). As to training up skills to fly one as a counter û see my argument to #4 below. 2.This is a good argument, except that it doesnÆt address just HOW BIG an innovation this is to the game. You are jumping the most powerful ships in the game (non-capital) 4 roles to cover what is the domain of the smallest ships. This is really too much. DonÆt believe me? Then try the logic in reverseà Imagine a mod that had no stacking penalties, no limits, that gave interceptors the PG and CPU necessary to fit 4 cruise missiles. Imagine the Crow with 4 T2 Cruise. 9K/sec, spewing missiles and zooming off. Would you agree with this? WouldnÆt people who have ôspent the time to train the skillsö to fly a battleship feel like they have been cheated? Now a ship that costs roughly + the cost of a BS can fly faster than they can target it and still have the firepower of a BS. This is an equally absurd creation. Bottom line, if you want a ship to have the ability to jump 4 roles, then why cant ALL ships jump just as many roles? What about a BC that had the firepower of a dreadnaught or carrier? Is that balanced? I donÆt think so. 3.I am not interested in how much a nano-phoon costs û if price was the only limitation to performance in EVE, then everyone would be buying ISK on e-bay. 4.Too bad. I donÆt believe in the ôI win EVEö fitting. Have fun with something else, or play a different game. The nano-phoon might not exactly be an ôI win EVEö button, but it is definitely overpowered. Just because it is fun 4 you doesnÆt make it good for the game. 5.This is the most absurd suggestion people make û and yet these forums are littered with suggestions like this. If the game requires you to completely retrain your skill base just to counter one ship THEN THERE IS CLEARLY AN IMBALANCE! Period. This goes for the arguments that you should just train up a Huginn or a Curse to take on a nano-phoon. It doesnÆt take much (reasonable) thought to figure that out. Let me restate that last one clearly: If the game requires you to completely retrain your skill base (train Minmatar!) just to counter one ship THEN THERE IS CLEARLY AN IMBALANCE! Period.
Master Arrow	Posted - 2007.02.25 12:01:00 - [958] I think its funny that every nano-pilot is saying "adapt" Thats the biggest load of BS. ALL ships in the game can be taken 1v1 with the right counter ship. A nano-ship requires a full gang of ships that all have specific roles in taking down a nano and have to be used effectively and error free in order to kill the nano-ship. That is far too overpowered for 1 ship to be able to take on a gang of ships and not even have to really worry about losing his ship. The other arguement is they paid a lot and spent a lot of time training to use it. Theres far more ships that require far more skills to fly that can be killed much easier than a nano-ship. So your isk/sp arguement is basically void. Therefore, NERF it already...A BS that is faster and just as agile as an interceptor is just totally defiant on game mechanics and design. CCP is trying to improve pvp and encourage it, yet it allows one ship setup that is so overpowered that it has destroyed the whole pvp part of the game.
Tohmu Blackwing	Posted - 2007.02.25 12:39:00 - [959] Hmm... just thinking about this a bit more... Maybe someone could write up this "long list of skills" that a nano-phoon pilot must train "just to be able to use it...?" If these are general purpose skills that EVERYONE uses, then you can TAKE THEM OFF YOUR LIST! They don't count! General purpose skills (as in, EVERYONE has them - or should): Navigation IV (V if you fly an inty - required) Acceleration Control IV Afterburner IV (required for Evasive Maneuvering) Evasive Maneuvering IV (V if you fly an inty - required) High Speed Maneuvering III Spaceship Command IV Strike these from your list. Show me a pilot who PvPs and DOES NOT have these skills and I will eat my Raven. These are just a basic list of skills that everyone should have. They simply DON'T count for your "long list of skills to properly train a nano-phoon." I am curious what else is required, beyond taking these skills to V...? (note: High Speed Maneuvering V is not required - it is just handy). Some of these skills should probably be at higher levels for PvP setups - I just put them at a basic minimum. I am sure there are skills needed to fly a nano-phoon effectively beyond this list - but don't even think about including Minmatar Battleship as one of them. You fly Minnie ships, I fly Caldari. Listing the skill needed to fly the ship in question is NOT proof that you had to train really hard to fly a nano-phoon. I had to train just as hard to fly that Raven... So.... what other skills are required to make you go really fast? I see only the list above as required skills - with some taken to level V. If you already fly Interceptors, it would only require Acceleration Control and Spaceship Command to V from what I can see. That is about a 20 day investment, hardly the "massive investment" of time used to justify unbalancing the game this much...
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.25 16:14:00 - [960] I just had a thought. I'm not sure if it was mentioned but why not increase the cap usage on the MWD, remove the cap penalty and put a huge agility penalty on it? It occurs to me that the whole point of the MWD originally was just for a sudden burst of speed that applies in a straight line. Wouldn't something like this work best?

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