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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2430
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Posted - 2016.02.12 08:11:32 -
[91] - Quote
but then no knowledge on the game as joe is researching actually buying skills, how and where to inject them while jeff is learning to kite and do pvp mechanics.
jeff wins because jeff knows how to eve, be like jeff
"Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus
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Angel Cartel || Serpentis
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2382
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Posted - 2016.02.12 08:20:16 -
[92] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:but then no knowledge on the game as joe is researching actually buying skills, how and where to inject them while jeff is learning to kite and do pvp mechanics.
jeff wins because jeff knows how to eve, be like jeff You just introduced another variable thats pure speculation. That doesnt work. What does work is Joe has max cap recharge, max speed, tracking, agility, shields, armor, T2 equipment etc etc. Jeffs dead meat :)
obviously there are exceptional players and shite players but when comparing as we have to with the multiple hundred thousand accounts in EvE we need to use avarage players as a baseline. So joe and jeff are both average players.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2430
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Posted - 2016.02.12 08:30:00 -
[93] - Quote
proper pay2win would be a new bro buying a 70mil sp char and beating a genuine trained 70mil sp player purely out of sp, but that doesnt happen so its not really pay2win is it?
its all speculation....
"Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus
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Angel Cartel || Serpentis
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2382
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Posted - 2016.02.12 08:47:04 -
[94] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:proper pay2win would be a new bro buying a 70mil sp char and beating a genuine trained 70mil sp player purely out of sp, but that doesnt happen so its not really pay2win is it?
its all speculation....
No not all speculation. Its fact that on average EvE players will not be fully trained. Its also fact that you could spend money to be fully trained up. Its fact that the average EvE player is an average pvpr obviously. that means on average those who buy sp will beat those who dont buy SP.
everyone seems to be in massive denial but the reality is you could already buy a char from day one so nothing really had changed.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1914
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Posted - 2016.02.12 08:51:32 -
[95] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Lan Wang wrote:proper pay2win would be a new bro buying a 70mil sp char and beating a genuine trained 70mil sp player purely out of sp, but that doesnt happen so its not really pay2win is it?
its all speculation....
No not all speculation. Its fact that on average EvE players will not be fully trained. Its also fact that you could spend money to be fully trained up. Its fact that the average EvE player is an average pvpr obviously. that means on average those who buy sp will beat those who dont buy SP. everyone seems to be in massive denial but the reality is you could already buy a char from day one so nothing really had changed. Doesn't really work like that. A player who trains up to max out a specific ship and/or combat style can't be outmatched by SP in that application even if another player buys more total SP. With individual skills capped at 5 and only a certain number of skills applying to each fit or ship widely divergent SP totals can actually perform the same if not close enough to be indistinguishable. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2382
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Posted - 2016.02.12 08:57:55 -
[96] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Lan Wang wrote:proper pay2win would be a new bro buying a 70mil sp char and beating a genuine trained 70mil sp player purely out of sp, but that doesnt happen so its not really pay2win is it?
its all speculation....
No not all speculation. Its fact that on average EvE players will not be fully trained. Its also fact that you could spend money to be fully trained up. Its fact that the average EvE player is an average pvpr obviously. that means on average those who buy sp will beat those who dont buy SP. everyone seems to be in massive denial but the reality is you could already buy a char from day one so nothing really had changed. Doesn't really work like that. A player who trains up to max out a specific ship and/or combat style can't be outmatched by SP in that application even if another player buys more total SP. With individual skills capped at 5 and only a certain number of skills applying to each fit or ship widely divergent SP totals can actually perform the same if not close enough to be indistinguishable. While true those max trained players dont matter though in that sense all things being equal we could call that scenario Pay Not To Lose.
The majority of players dont have all engineery, electronics gunnery navigation etc etc to max as well as all ship relevant skills theyre flying to max. the majority are average not elite.
now one of these average guysbcan pay to max elite themselves and stomp all the others.
edit:
while somewhat alliviated by the numbers game the pay to win aspect will transfer even more spectacularly to group play where a non paying fleet will be trounced by paying fleets. its virtually garanteed that corps alliances will now require applicant to PTW to ge accepted or will fund PTW themselves
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
140
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Posted - 2016.02.12 15:48:41 -
[97] - Quote
Loss of Skill Points
Focus People!!!
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1883
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Posted - 2016.02.12 16:02:00 -
[98] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Loss of Skill Points
Focus People!!!
Loss of skillpoints on injection is necessary to prevent trivial intracharacter remapping, which would be bad for gameplay.
You're more or less the only person in the thread who doesn't seem to grasp this.
No amount of roleplay rationalization is sufficient to counteract a gameplay necessity, so you can quit presenting those as if they matter.
It's not going anywhere. Change your huggies and move on.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7511
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Posted - 2016.02.12 16:27:19 -
[99] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: now one of these average guysbcan pay to max elite themselves and stomp all the others.
No, they can't. SP are a limited resource, they have to be trained; if enough people are transferring them, they can definitely run dry completely, and as OP so deftly pointed out (something none of us knew about because no one put it in a devblog anywhere or anything like that, and even if they did, reading is hard), SP are lost in the transfer process. Even MORE are lost if the player using the SP already has a lot. It does come with a very sudden and steep point of limited returns where it's just not worth doing anymore.
And, as has been pointed out to you on many occasions, SP don't matter as much as understanding the mechanics. Don't try this 'average player' bulls**t on me either, the average player is just as capable of learning mechanics as the very good ones. How do you think players become good at the game to begin with? Do you think people start this game already being very good at it do you? Get out. I've seen players less than 6 months into the game wipe the floor with your so-called 'pay-to-win' types more than enough times to know how it works, and the only person you're deluding with this nonsense is yourself.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
301
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Posted - 2016.02.12 16:39:28 -
[100] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Lina Sovereign wrote:I think it's just turning the game into a Pay2Win MMO with subscription. So if I have more SP I will always defeat you? It is pay to win but its been paytowin since plex n character buying were allowed. if you have more SP likely will beat youre opponent yeah. all other variables being equal. comparisons based on wild inequalities are useless. thats why comparisons are almost always done with only the variable in question being inequal. Jeff n Joe both sign to EvE, they skill up until they can both fly a Tristan. Joe buys a years worth of skill points and trains all engineering, electronics, weps to 5. Jeffs about to get his ass kicked. Joe paid to win. Pretty simple. the only time this is not true is with already trained chars with Tristen related skills maxed.
Doesn't sound like p2w to me.
You can accumulate sp by just login on and adding it to your skill queue, which means it isn't something that gives you an advantage that you can only get by paying cash for it (subscriptions don't count as technically everyone has to do that one way or another). |
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
622
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Posted - 2016.02.12 17:02:18 -
[101] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Loss of Skill Points
Focus People!!!
Given you're a 2005 character, I can't help but assume this is a stealthy "I wish I could abuse this new mechanic" thread. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1916
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Posted - 2016.02.12 19:37:55 -
[102] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:While true those max trained players dont matter though in that sense all things being equal we could call that scenario Pay Not To Lose.
The majority of players dont have all engineery, electronics gunnery navigation etc etc to max as well as all ship relevant skills theyre flying to max. the majority are average not elite.
now one of these average guysbcan pay to max elite themselves and stomp all the others. No, he really can't because it's not something available to him alone. A lot of those players he's competing with DO have the relevant cores for the ships they fly, further the ones they don't have they can get the same way through in game assets. Nothing opens up any exclusive of discriminatory options.
Infinity Ziona wrote:edit:
while somewhat alliviated by the numbers game the pay to win aspect will transfer even more spectacularly to group play where a non paying fleet will be trounced by paying fleets. its virtually garanteed that corps alliances will now require applicant to PTW to ge accepted or will fund PTW themselves That's actually where it's minimized rather than of greatest importance. The far bigger benefit there will be to raw numbers and composition than individual SP. I'd more wager at that point injectors see their greatest irrelevance.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4696
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Posted - 2016.02.12 20:25:13 -
[103] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Lan Wang wrote:proper pay2win would be a new bro buying a 70mil sp char and beating a genuine trained 70mil sp player purely out of sp, but that doesnt happen so its not really pay2win is it?
its all speculation....
No not all speculation. Its fact that on average EvE players will not be fully trained. Its also fact that you could spend money to be fully trained up. Its fact that the average EvE player is an average pvpr obviously. that means on average those who buy sp will beat those who dont buy SP. everyone seems to be in massive denial but the reality is you could already buy a char from day one so nothing really had changed. Doesn't really work like that. A player who trains up to max out a specific ship and/or combat style can't be outmatched by SP in that application even if another player buys more total SP. With individual skills capped at 5 and only a certain number of skills applying to each fit or ship widely divergent SP totals can actually perform the same if not close enough to be indistinguishable. While true those max trained players dont matter though in that sense all things being equal we could call that scenario Pay Not To Lose. The majority of players dont have all engineery, electronics gunnery navigation etc etc to max as well as all ship relevant skills theyre flying to max. the majority are average not elite. now one of these average guysbcan pay to max elite themselves and stomp all the others. edit: while somewhat alliviated by the numbers game the pay to win aspect will transfer even more spectacularly to group play where a non paying fleet will be trounced by paying fleets. its virtually garanteed that corps alliances will now require applicant to PTW to ge accepted or will fund PTW themselves
I am not home so I can't check....but...
Yeah, I pretty much have electronics, shield skills, and the other core skills maxed. I can use all the t2 large guns, the only thing left to train relating to guns would be the large specialization skills to 5. I have something like 18 million SP in gunnery alone.
Yet....I die, and probably to players with less SP than me. If I am in say a Proteus all the gunnery skills for lasers, projectiles, missiles and drones do not matter in the least. If I am in an ishtar and die...all the skills for gunnery skills, missile skills, and SP for carriers, dreadnoughts, interceptors, battle cruisers do not mean ****.
What having a butt-ton of SP gives me the most is versatility. I can fly all racial HACs, all racial BS, all racial destroyers, and I can fly 3 out of 4 racial carriers. But in any given instance the vast bulk of those SP mean...nothing.
The game does not total up players SP when they start shooting each other and the guy with less SP then has ship explode.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
141
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Posted - 2016.02.12 21:11:51 -
[104] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I am not home so I can't check....but... Just add your character to http://eveboard.com/ and password protect it.
Then you can check your specific skills from anywhere you have internet :-)
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
141
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Posted - 2016.02.12 21:14:32 -
[105] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:pajedas wrote:Loss of Skill Points
Focus People!!!
Given you're a 2005 character, I can't help but assume this is a stealthy "I wish I could abuse this new mechanic" thread. No.
I used 3 extractors to take out worthless skill points and re-injected them. (Still unallocated)
I'm done as far as I can tell.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2438
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Posted - 2016.02.12 21:59:13 -
[106] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:pajedas wrote:Loss of Skill Points
Focus People!!!
Given you're a 2005 character, I can't help but assume this is a stealthy "I wish I could abuse this new mechanic" thread. No. I used 3 extractors to take out worthless skill points and re-injected them. (Still unallocated) I'm done as far as I can tell.
so you're bitter because it didnt benefit you like you would have preferred, or didnt you read before you reinjected?
"Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus
...............................
Angel Cartel || Serpentis
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2438
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Posted - 2016.02.12 22:04:15 -
[107] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:edit:
while somewhat alliviated by the numbers game the pay to win aspect will transfer even more spectacularly to group play where a non paying fleet will be trounced by paying fleets. its virtually garanteed that corps alliances will now require applicant to PTW to ge accepted or will fund PTW themselves
so a bit like ship srp where big alliances p2w with moon goo and other alliance income?
"Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus
...............................
Angel Cartel || Serpentis
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
141
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Posted - 2016.02.12 22:09:22 -
[108] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:so you're bitter because it didnt benefit you like you would have preferred, or didnt you read before you reinjected? You're the perfect example of someone who doesn't bother to read a thread before making some snarky comment.
Of course I read the description before I used it and got what I expected.
I'm asking people to look at the "big picture".
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2439
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Posted - 2016.02.12 22:18:15 -
[109] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Lan Wang wrote:so you're bitter because it didnt benefit you like you would have preferred, or didnt you read before you reinjected? You're the perfect example of someone who doesn't bother to read a thread before making some snarky comment. Of course I read the description before I used it and got what I expected. I'm asking people to look at the " big picture".
my first snarky comment was post number 5
"Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus
...............................
Angel Cartel || Serpentis
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
301
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Posted - 2016.02.12 23:28:34 -
[110] - Quote
pajedas wrote:
I'm asking people to look at the "big picture".
Seems like a lot of us don't see the same big picture that you do.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1897
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Posted - 2016.02.12 23:31:29 -
[111] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Lan Wang wrote:so you're bitter because it didnt benefit you like you would have preferred, or didnt you read before you reinjected? You're the perfect example of someone who doesn't bother to read a thread before making some snarky comment. Of course I read the description before I used it and got what I expected. I'm asking people to look at the " big picture".
The big picture is that is that lossless on-demand skill point remapping would be bad for the game.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
141
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Posted - 2016.02.12 23:35:50 -
[112] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:The big picture is that is that lossless on-demand skill point remapping would be bad for the game. How could I have forgotten that the forum trolls know everything?
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
302
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Posted - 2016.02.12 23:50:14 -
[113] - Quote
pajedas wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:The big picture is that is that lossless on-demand skill point remapping would be bad for the game. How could I have forgotten that the forum trolls know everything?
I don't think many are trolling you, it's just that you are so sure that the big picture is how you see it, you just won't except any other version. |
Aiwha
Infinite Point Northern Army
981
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Posted - 2016.02.13 01:40:51 -
[114] - Quote
:nopoors:
Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Aiwha for CSM XI
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Cidanel Afuran
Static-Noise Upholders
622
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Posted - 2016.02.13 03:01:45 -
[115] - Quote
pajedas wrote: I used 3 extractors to take out worthless skill points and re-injected them. (Still unallocated)
I'm done as far as I can tell.
you literally just confirmed what I said. Stop trolling. Please. What exactly do you get from trolling like you are? |
pajedas
Warlord of Mars
142
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Posted - 2016.02.13 15:18:22 -
[116] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:pajedas wrote: I used 3 extractors to take out worthless skill points and re-injected them. (Still unallocated)
I'm done as far as I can tell.
you literally just confirmed what I said. Stop trolling. Please. What exactly do you get from trolling like you are? You disagree with me so I agree with you and you disagree with that.
That's trolling.
I believe my OP to be true and accurate.
CCP's gain is our loss.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17478
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Posted - 2016.02.13 15:32:45 -
[117] - Quote
Every skillpoint that's lost makes mine worth just that little bit more.
I'm especially enjoying the anticipation of the wailing that will happen when CCP make some long neglected skill really useful
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2444
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Posted - 2016.02.13 15:40:58 -
[118] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:pajedas wrote: I used 3 extractors to take out worthless skill points and re-injected them. (Still unallocated)
I'm done as far as I can tell.
you literally just confirmed what I said. Stop trolling. Please. What exactly do you get from trolling like you are? You disagree with me so I agree with you and you disagree with that. That's trolling. I believe my OP to be true and accurate. CCP's gain is our loss.
then dont do it?
"Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus
...............................
Angel Cartel || Serpentis
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pajedas
Warlord of Mars
142
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Posted - 2016.02.13 16:26:04 -
[119] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:then dont do it? Did you even read what you quoted? I said that I was done, having used 3 extractors and re-injecting them.
Look at the overall impact (long term) on the Eve community.
You can go troll somewhere else as you obviously have nothing to add here.
Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
303
|
Posted - 2016.02.13 16:34:39 -
[120] - Quote
pajedas wrote:Lan Wang wrote:then dont do it? Did you even read what you quoted? I said that I was done, having used 3 extractors and re-injecting them. Look at the overall impact (long term) on the Eve community. You can go troll somewhere else as you obviously have nothing to add here.
The sp that is lost wasn't required by the characters that trained them, therefore lost sp doesn't matter. |
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