Originally by: Effei Gloom

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- Datacore mechanical engineering 3 60 mill
- Datacore nuclear physics 3 75 mill

- Datacore mechanical engineering 3 60 mill
- Datacore nuclear physics 3 100 mill

- Datacore mechanical engineering 3 45 mill
- Datacore nuclear physics 3 45 mill

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Originally by: Derrys

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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- Datacore mechanical engineering 3 60 mill
- Datacore nuclear physics 3 75 mill

- Datacore mechanical engineering 3 60 mill
- Datacore nuclear physics 3 100 mill

- Datacore mechanical engineering 3 45 mill
- Datacore nuclear physics 3 45 mill

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There's your problem. You're paying way too much for datacores.

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Originally by: R'adeh

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Yes, invention requires more work and input than a normal T2 BPO. Makes sense imo since otherwise they could have just drop T2 BPOs in exploration sites

If you want the easy way of getting decryptors and datacores (aka fly to Jita and buy straight of market), don't expect to maximize your profit or even make a profit. Go do some exploration to get datacores, or *censored* (I thought about giving this tip, but if you can't figure it out by yourself, you're not ready for the T2 business). There's plenty of ways to get cheaper datacores than in Jita.

I don't get why people complain after only a few days. The market will stabilize. People who are too lazy to do the work involved with invention will drop out of business, prices of invention material will go down, profits will go up. Let the market stabilize for a few weeks before whining...

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Originally by: Demonikan

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Maruud, I take it that was a 0.0 exploration site? Low sec only yields 1-4 max, and radar sites are fast becoming less and less (lots of hidden belts/unknowns, but 1 radar site out of 30 systems scanned yesterday)

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Keep it simple, post your invention jobs with win/loss, so others can think about too.

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Originally by: Jita TradeAlt

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Sure, I didn't take notes on the specifics, but all relevant skills to 4, 7 invention jobs on 1mn MWD, all used the assembly instructions decrypter, all used best named MWD, ME/PE100(i think both at 100) and 300 run BPC.

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Originally by: Mr Printman

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Damn. What are the relevant skills that you're talking about?

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Originally by: Professor Pizi

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Edited by: Professor Pizi on 06/02/2007 13:02:23
a dev

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=443643

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Originally by: Jita TradeAlt

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Edited by: Jita TradeAlt on 06/02/2007 13:13:01

Originally by: Professor Pizi

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Edited by: Professor Pizi on 06/02/2007 13:02:23
a dev

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=443643

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I was hoping there was something I was missing or doing wrong, but it looks like I did most things right and still got next to nothing. And ship invention has half the chance of success as mods? Glad I didn't go for vagabond invention as originally planned then.


Time to recoup some of the loss: WTS Built cryptic interface.

edit, ahh, now i realize why the sell forum is full of WTS interfaces.

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Originally by: CynoCyber

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Edited by: CynoCyber on 06/02/2007 23:28:02
Guys did you actualy read information on decryptors??? there is like 6-7 of them. You start with 1 (basic) and make t2 bpc. after that you put in back in lab and incrase ME on it with other decryptor. same is with PE and production runs. 1st bpc will be not profiteble and defenetly not if skills not maxed. Invention must be done step by step to get profiteble bpc from it. Good luck with.

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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Originally by: CynoCyber

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Edited by: CynoCyber on 06/02/2007 23:28:02
Guys did you actualy read information on decryptors??? there is like 6-7 of them. You start with 1 (basic) and make t2 bpc. after that you put in back in lab and incrase ME on it with other decryptor. same is with PE and production runs. 1st bpc will be not profiteble and defenetly not if skills not maxed. Invention must be done step by step to get profiteble bpc from it. Good luck with.

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Are you for real? You can't modify bpc's. What the decryptors does is give a chance to create a inveted bpc at different levels of success. Like the decryptor with the highest run modifier will have a very slim chance of success. Where a decryptor with high success chance gives crappy run's. Just now all gives crappy runs, and certain decryptors not even possible to find it seems.

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Originally by: CynoCyber

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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Originally by: CynoCyber

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Edited by: CynoCyber on 06/02/2007 23:28:02
Guys did you actualy read information on decryptors??? there is like 6-7 of them. You start with 1 (basic) and make t2 bpc. after that you put in back in lab and incrase ME on it with other decryptor. same is with PE and production runs. 1st bpc will be not profiteble and defenetly not if skills not maxed. Invention must be done step by step to get profiteble bpc from it. Good luck with.

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Are you for real? You can't modify bpc's. What the decryptors does is give a chance to create a inveted bpc at different levels of success. Like the decryptor with the highest run modifier will have a very slim chance of success. Where a decryptor with high success chance gives crappy run's. Just now all gives crappy runs, and certain decryptors not even possible to find it seems.

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Meaby you are rigth. I'm not gonna discuss that with you because i did not tryed yet by my self. But did you???

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Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky

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Invention is a poor patch to the T2 BPO lottery system. T2 BPOs should be sold like other BPOs + RA loyalty points - this invention crap is simply not competative and quite frankly an insult to people who are trying to get into the T2 market.
Come on CCP - let the T2 market open, allow for people to use T1 BPCs and reaserch points to get T2 BPOs, this is work enough, and helps all of us out and ends to tyranny of T2 BPO money making machines.

anyone who disagrees is rich and owns a T2 BPO for something nice. . .like a Vegabond or something.

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Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky

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Invention is a poor patch to the T2 BPO lottery system. T2 BPOs should be sold like other BPOs + RA loyalty points - this invention crap is simply not competative and quite frankly an insult to people who are trying to get into the T2 market.
Come on CCP - let the T2 market open, allow for people to use T1 BPCs and reaserch points to get T2 BPOs, this is work enough, and helps all of us out and ends to tyranny of T2 BPO money making machines.

anyone who disagrees is rich and owns a T2 BPO for something nice. . .like a Vegabond or something.

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Originally by: Demonikan

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I disagree with you, I do not own any T2 BPOs and my wallet is sub billion. T2 is and always has been different, and should not be as common or as cheap as T1, you idea would make the T2 'point' redundant. I said from the start that invention was a placebo to try and distract none T2 BPO holders from the shortcomings in the lottery system, at this time, I stand by my original statement.

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Originally by: Sally

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Originally by: Demonikan

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I disagree with you, I do not own any T2 BPOs and my wallet is sub billion. T2 is and always has been different, and should not be as common or as cheap as T1, you idea would make the T2 'point' redundant. I said from the start that invention was a placebo to try and distract none T2 BPO holders from the shortcomings in the lottery system, at this time, I stand by my original statement.

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Look, you must draw a line somewher. Is 14 mil for T2 1400 too much? If it costs 1 mil to produce? Is 8 mil too much? Is 5 mil fair? Keep in mind, only year ago 1400 T2 costs 2 mils, and there was no complains, they was "special" and "expencive" enouth. You must draw a line somewhere, and IMO 3x of real production cost is MAXIMUM anyone should be able to charge regardless of how special that BPO is. That is the point there developers should aim when balancing invention. After all, we want a FREE market in eve, not some kind of artificial communist monopoly.

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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For minmatar invention joby only the Assembly Instruction descryptor give good result

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Originally by: Ione Hunt

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Edited by: Ione Hunt on 07/02/2007 17:39:48
Edited by: Ione Hunt on 07/02/2007 17:35:28
T2 EANM, Amarr encryption methods 4, rest at lvl 3/4 and a good source of datacores/decryptors gave around 30% profit. Not as much as having the T2 BPO, but not shabby at all. It's all a matter of reducing cost, and everyone needs to figure out how by themselves...

EDIT: Asking people for their success stories to find out what you should produce is stupid! They won't tell you where they got the resources, and at what price or else you'd take their busines...don't be lazy

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Originally by: Jita TradeAlt

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Originally by: Ione Hunt

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Edited by: Ione Hunt on 07/02/2007 17:39:48
Edited by: Ione Hunt on 07/02/2007 17:35:28
T2 EANM, Amarr encryption methods 4, rest at lvl 3/4 and a good source of datacores/decryptors gave around 30% profit. Not as much as having the T2 BPO, but not shabby at all. It's all a matter of reducing cost, and everyone needs to figure out how by themselves...

EDIT: Asking people for their success stories to find out what you should produce is stupid! They won't tell you where they got the resources, and at what price or else you'd take their busines...don't be lazy

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So you managed to explore/research out your own datacores? Yeah, assuming your time is worth nothing and you couldn't sell the cores on the market then you probably did make money.


Probably not though.

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Originally by: Jita TradeAlt

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Edited by: Jita TradeAlt on 08/02/2007 06:36:33
I talked to a corp mate and we realized something funny, all the people I know of that has tried invention already hold T2 bpos, and probably because they are the only ones rich enough to try it.

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Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch

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I've done 5 invention jobs with all 5 succeeding, I used the "assembly instructions" decryptor. None of the others seem worth it.

I spent an arseload of ISK on building my interfaces and then CCP went and made them 5x cheaper to build and decreased bpc's from 40 runs to 14.

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Originally by: Derrys

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Sure, Invention may not be profitable if all you want to do is click a few buttons to rent a lab slot and expect to make insane amount of money doing that. But it's very profitable for those who actually generate the datacores, or those who go to the trouble of obtaining them without spending an arm and a leg.

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Originally by: Bombcrater

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Using your own datacores in invention is only worthwhile if the profit exceeds the market value of the datacores.

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Quote:

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Either invention adds value or it doesn't. Where the cores are coming from doesn't affect that at all -- it's the relationship between the market price of cores and the finished modules/ships that's critical.

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Originally by: Derrys

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On the other hand, the act of turning datacores into T2 BPCs requires pretty much nothing. You buy an interface and click a few buttons to rent a lab slot. There's nothing to it, so of course margins are razor-thin.

The fact that the lucrative part of the process is the one that requires some actual effort shouldn't surprise anyone. If CCP did change the system back so that you regularly got 40-run BPCs, then all that would happen is that the price of datacores would rise proportionately.

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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With the nerf of runs, there is no safety net at all consider failed jobs.

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Quote:

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Yes, datacores still sell for 20m, the cheap data interfaces is the reason for that. Once people start find out the invention isnt all its *****ed up to be, that will change.

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Originally by: Derrys

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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With the nerf of runs, there is no safety net at all consider failed jobs.

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Increasing the number of runs wouldn't help with this problem at all. In fact, it would make it worse.

Think about it. The reason datacore prices are so high is that demand exceeds supply. If you increase the number of runs of Invented BPCs, that will only increase the demand for datacores, while the supply will remain more or less constant. Prices will rise. Sure, more money will be made through Invention, but it'll mostly go into the pockets of the datacore producers, just like now.

Quote:

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Yes, datacores still sell for 20m, the cheap data interfaces is the reason for that. Once people start find out the invention isnt all its *****ed up to be, that will change.

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Then you're pretty much saying the problem will fix itself. Trust the market. It'll find a good equilibrium soon enough if you just give it time to stabilize.

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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CCP screwed this up major with make data interfaces drop like candy and require a nickle to build, and at same time nerf the runs. A few high demand modules you may turn some profit on doesnt make invention successfull.

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Quote:

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When people notice they cant harvest the big bucks for their datacores less people get willing to harvest them to sell. The datacores that is required for the few mods that you can turn a buck on will go up until a point you wont make any on them.

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Originally by: Derrys

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Sure, the day will come (probably in a few months) when the profits of Invention will drop somewhat. Enough people will be Inventing the high-demand modules that the price will fall to a reasonable level. I think that's great. That will be the end of the T2 BPO overlords -- they'll have only a slight ME/PE advantage over the inventors. When that day comes, I'll shift my focus from moneymaking to keeping my corp supplied with cheap T2 modules at below market price, and I'll still be happy.

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Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 6244

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Think about this for a second:

T2 congolmerate determines that in order for invention to be profitable datacores have to drop below X price.

They decide to maintain buy orders for X+1 in order to ensure that they are never profitable.

They minimize losses by doing invention themselves, ergo only people with a ton of money and T2 bpos can actually do any invention. They continue to maintain huge profit levels, and eliminate competition.

I hope CCP thought about this angle when they designed this flawed system. but it sure dosen't look that way.

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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T2 BPO Overlords? I think you got a few bolts lose in your nugget. Not all t2 bpo's is a gold mine, in fact just a very few is of the whole total.

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Quote:

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Imho it failed, because the cost of invention jobs + the build of the item ended up higher than the t2 modules was available for on the market.

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And yes Im happy you made your wallet fat on invention so forth that invention is your happyland atm, but as you might have noticed there is many on this forum that doesnt share that view.

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Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 6244

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T2 congolmerate determines that in order for invention to be profitable datacores have to drop below X price.

They decide to maintain buy orders for X+1 in order to ensure that they are never profitable.

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Originally by: Derrys

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I haven't heard any cogent arguments about how Invention is broken. In particular, I'm still waiting to hear a single good reason why people would be paying 20M per datacore if Invention weren't profitable. Seriously, why would they throw their money away if it didn't work for them?

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Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 6244

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Think about this for a second:

T2 congolmerate determines that in order for invention to be profitable datacores have to drop below X price.

They decide to maintain buy orders for X+1 in order to ensure that they are never profitable.

They minimize losses by doing invention themselves, ergo only people with a ton of money and T2 bpos can actually do any invention. They continue to maintain huge profit levels, and eliminate competition.

I hope CCP thought about this angle when they designed this flawed system. but it sure dosen't look that way.

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 6244

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Think about this for a second:

T2 congolmerate determines that in order for invention to be profitable datacores have to drop below X price.

They decide to maintain buy orders for X+1 in order to ensure that they are never profitable.

They minimize losses by doing invention themselves, ergo only people with a ton of money and T2 bpos can actually do any invention. They continue to maintain huge profit levels, and eliminate competition.

I hope CCP thought about this angle when they designed this flawed system. but it sure dosen't look that way.

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It looks like this is comming to life once invention could be a danger to superrich t2 bpo owners.
A Hulk bpo owner could buy all Gallente starship datacores , say under 20 mill value, screwing all afford to invent a hulk bpc.
Sure the datacore sellers would make some isk but Hulk prices would not drop ...
So how is invention going to work?
I must have missed something :)

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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It looks like this is comming to life once invention could be a danger to superrich t2 bpo owners.
A Hulk bpo owner could buy all Gallente starship datacores , say under 20 mill value, screwing all afford to invent a hulk bpc.
Sure the datacore sellers would make some isk but Hulk prices would not drop ...
So how is invention going to work?
I must have missed something :)

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Originally by: Biancia

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Edited by: Biancia on 09/02/2007 03:26:48

Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Originally by: Minmatar Citizen 6244

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Think about this for a second:

T2 congolmerate determines that in order for invention to be profitable datacores have to drop below X price.

They decide to maintain buy orders for X+1 in order to ensure that they are never profitable.

They minimize losses by doing invention themselves, ergo only people with a ton of money and T2 bpos can actually do any invention. They continue to maintain huge profit levels, and eliminate competition.

I hope CCP thought about this angle when they designed this flawed system. but it sure dosen't look that way.

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It looks like this is comming to life once invention could be a danger to superrich t2 bpo owners.
A Hulk bpo owner could buy all Gallente starship datacores , say under 20 mill value, screwing all afford to invent a hulk bpc.
Sure the datacore sellers would make some isk but Hulk prices would not drop ...
So how is invention going to work?
I must have missed something :)

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To be honest .... anyone doing invention should have there own research agents going and not depend on the market to supply ( that doesn't mean they are free when calculating profitability of invention )

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Breakthrough

Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Edited by: Effei Gloom on 11/02/2007 22:11:12

Breakthrough

updated with job 5-6

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Originally by: El Yatta

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This is because the proto cloak I BPO is still treated as a T2 bpo, with insane copy times and research times. The only solution really is to buy and research NINE other cloak BPOs in order to be able to do a batch every 10 days, and buy 9 more lab arrays to do copying simultaneously. So another 1.8bn then, plus an immense drain on a lab's resources and a lot more hassle.

CCP needs to change the now t1 cloak BPO's stats to reflect its t1 status.

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Originally by: Evil Oreo

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CCP's aim in invention was to allow a way for people to enter the T2 market profitibly, thus increasing supply, thus lowering prices. All it has done, as many have mentioned, is created an expensive hobby.

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Even if you use your own datacores, they still have the market value

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Originally by: Derrys

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For that reason, no, you'll never be able to make huge piles of money simply by buying datacores off the market and turning them into T2 equipment, which is the complaint I'm seeing here.

All that said, I'll reiterate what I've posted several times: I've had no problem at all making a significant profit with Invention, even assuming I'd bought the datacores off the market. It's just a matter of running the numbers and using good sense.

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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My biggest consern is not so much make much profit out of it. I want to use the invention to build tech2 modules for corp at cheaper cost than it would to buy it from the market.

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Quote:

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The datacores itself got a market value.

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Quote:

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No point in invention if you can sell the datacores at higher profit for your time spent than items produced through invention.

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The nerf on the runs + failed jobs made invention in generel not worth it. As someone said its an expensive hobby.

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Originally by: Derrys

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Originally by: Evil Oreo

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CCP's aim in invention was to allow a way for people to enter the T2 market profitibly, thus increasing supply, thus lowering prices. All it has done, as many have mentioned, is created an expensive hobby.

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That ignores the crucial fact that the only reason datacores have value in the first place is because of Invention. That's important because it means blanket statements such as "Invention is just an expensive hobby" are shortsighted -- if nobody were doing Invention, nobody would be selling datacores either.

The truth is more subtle: the relative value of selling datacores and performing Invention is subject to market forces. It's possible (likely, in fact), that the datacore market is temporarily inflated because so many people are willing to try Invention for the novelty factor, even if they end up taking a loss. However, that won't be the case for very long, and eventually things will settle into an equilibrium.

Exactly what that equilibrium will be depends on the relative difficulties of the two parts of the process: producing datacores and turning them into T2 BPCs. The fact of the matter is that the second stage is trivially easy; Inventing items is effortless if you have the datacores. Producing the datacores is more difficult. It a larger investment of skill training, and it takes time: either time for your agents to accumulate RP, or time spent looking for Hacking complexes and acquiring datacores that way.

For that reason, no, you'll never be able to make huge piles of money simply by buying datacores off the market and turning them into T2 equipment, which is the complaint I'm seeing here.

All that said, I'll reiterate what I've posted several times: I've had no problem at all making a significant profit with Invention, even assuming I'd bought the datacores off the market. It's just a matter of running the numbers and using good sense.

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Originally by: Chips Ahoy

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I guess what I was trying to get at is that the value of datacores seem to be over inflated compared to the income potential of invention. The same thing happened to salvage loot and rigs and now it has stabilized, and I am confident that invention will balance out.

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I would just think that CCP would have made this value more obvious so you would alot of people saying "Woohoo new cash!" and because of the introduction of more t2 mods, a noticible price decrease.

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Originally by: Derrys

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Originally by: Chips Ahoy

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I guess what I was trying to get at is that the value of datacores seem to be over inflated compared to the income potential of invention. The same thing happened to salvage loot and rigs and now it has stabilized, and I am confident that invention will balance out.

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It will. There are two reasons datacore prices are so high right now: first, the T2 reseeding is still going on, so people are hoarding their RP hoping to get lucky. When this batch of BPOs is seeded, they'll cash out and dump datacores on the market.

And second, there are an awful lot of people experimenting with Invention right now. It's just the novelty value. People are playing around and not particularly concerned with making money, so they're paying way too much for datacores and driving prices up. That'll stop pretty soon too.

Quote:

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I would just think that CCP would have made this value more obvious so you would alot of people saying "Woohoo new cash!" and because of the introduction of more t2 mods, a noticible price decrease.

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It'll happen, at least for the items with huge markups such as T2 guns, cloaks, and EANM's. Just give it time to work.

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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The invention path is flawed, and waiting and give it time wont fix that imho :/

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Originally by: Derrys

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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The invention path is flawed, and waiting and give it time wont fix that imho :/

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I guess we just have different expectations about what Invention is supposed to accomplish. To me, its main purpose is to nerf the ISK-printing machines that some people received in the lottery (Cerberus, T2 weapons, etc.), and if I can make a little money off it along the way, so much the better.

I never expected it to compete with the mid-level T2 producers, who really don't make that much money, and I certainly never thought it would be cost effective to Invent every single T2 item in the game.

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Edited by: Effei Gloom on 11/02/2007 22:11:12

Breakthrough

updated with job 5-6

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From what I could see from your sales post on that Vaga bpc. You ended up with a hard to sell expensive trinket. :/

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Edited by: Effei Gloom on 11/02/2007 22:11:12

Breakthrough

updated with job 5-6

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From what I could see from your sales post on that Vaga bpc. You ended up with a hard to sell expensive trinket. :/

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Again: why should i sell under price? if none likes to have it, i will build it and make full profit.
When it has not instandly sold, it only shows my price met its value.

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Originally by: Sally

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Look, you must draw a line somewher. Is 14 mil for T2 1400 too much? If it costs 1 mil to produce? Is 8 mil too much? Is 5 mil fair? Keep in mind, only year ago 1400 T2 costs 2 mils, and there was no complains, they was "special" and "expencive" enouth. You must draw a line somewhere, and IMO 3x of real production cost is MAXIMUM anyone should be able to charge regardless of how special that BPO is. That is the point there developers should aim when balancing invention. After all, we want a FREE market in eve, not some kind of artificial communist monopoly.

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Originally by: Bravest

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>> Why should I sell something for 3x as much as it costs to make it when people will buy them instantly for 20-30-40-50-60x as much as it costs me to make? <<

Buy or die (to the player that has it).
Well - it applies at least sometimes...

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Originally by: Mirirar

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you're paying way too much for datacores. learn to find them yourself, it's NOT hard. You could easily pull as many as you've been buying in a day.

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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...or i had bad luck so far.

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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If you find the datacores in exploration sites, you buy them from your R&D agents or from market its all the same price/value.

Only alternative are buy orders...

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Originally by: Ione Hunt

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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If you find the datacores in exploration sites, you buy them from your R&D agents or from market its all the same price/value.

Only alternative are buy orders...

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Depending on module/ship, I don't even care about the price of datacores because of the huge profit margin. But you're on the right track with buy orders, now you just have to place 'em in the right systems/regions and you'll save a ton of isk.

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Originally by: Ione Hunt

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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If you find the datacores in exploration sites, you buy them from your R&D agents or from market its all the same price/value.

Only alternative are buy orders...

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Depending on module/ship, I don't even care about the price of datacores because of the huge profit margin. But you're on the right track with buy orders, now you just have to place 'em in the right systems/regions and you'll save a ton of isk.

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sure is it possibly to trade with Datacors, but i would like to see invention working, i am not much of a trader.

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Originally by: Ione Hunt

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Originally by: Ione Hunt

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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If you find the datacores in exploration sites, you buy them from your R&D agents or from market its all the same price/value.

Only alternative are buy orders...

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Depending on module/ship, I don't even care about the price of datacores because of the huge profit margin. But you're on the right track with buy orders, now you just have to place 'em in the right systems/regions and you'll save a ton of isk.

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sure is it possibly to trade with Datacors, but i would like to see invention working, i am not much of a trader.

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Heh, me too. I'm not trading in datacores, invention works for me. The only sad thing is, that only a handful of modules of the T2 market are worth being invented. However, if you find such a module or ship, you won't moan about the price of datacores anymore because you'll still make a good profit even if you buy the datacores right from market in Jita.

PS: Sorry for not telling you the module, but if you want you can convo me and I'll give you a few hints I made over 1.5bil in 3 days (maybe 2hrs of work in total), so I really think you're making something wrong...

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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Originally by: Ione Hunt

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Originally by: Ione Hunt

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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If you find the datacores in exploration sites, you buy them from your R&D agents or from market its all the same price/value.

Only alternative are buy orders...

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Depending on module/ship, I don't even care about the price of datacores because of the huge profit margin. But you're on the right track with buy orders, now you just have to place 'em in the right systems/regions and you'll save a ton of isk.

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sure is it possibly to trade with Datacors, but i would like to see invention working, i am not much of a trader.

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Heh, me too. I'm not trading in datacores, invention works for me. The only sad thing is, that only a handful of modules of the T2 market are worth being invented. However, if you find such a module or ship, you won't moan about the price of datacores anymore because you'll still make a good profit even if you buy the datacores right from market in Jita.

PS: Sorry for not telling you the module, but if you want you can convo me and I'll give you a few hints I made over 1.5bil in 3 days (maybe 2hrs of work in total), so I really think you're making something wrong...

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"Now you see me, now you dont" the module in question is not that hard to figure out

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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I wont say there are mods or ships that cant be invented to make isk.

What this post is about is Minmatar Invention of 500%-800% overpriced T2 moduls and ships!

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Originally by: Ione Hunt

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at least until people can invent Hulks

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Originally by: Vastation

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Can you do remote invention the same way you can do remote research?

If so, do the ingredients have to be at the POS if you're inventing at a POS or can they be at a station.

Thanks,
V

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Originally by: Kaaii

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Originally by: Vastation

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Can you do remote invention the same way you can do remote research?

If so, do the ingredients have to be at the POS if you're inventing at a POS or can they be at a station.

Thanks,
V

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The mobile labs have 5 invention slots. Id say prolly yes, to both.



================


Has anyone figured in character stats into the equation? I mean are you inventing with intel 12 or 30? What about memory? Im guessing these two skills would be/are primary success modifiers but i've not seen any posts regarding stats vs invention.

Can those above post there intel/mem stats too, when pass or fails?

Just got me thinking on this...

Kaaii

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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updated with job 9 - failure -

score: 1 win / 4 loss = 20% (1 of 5 total) - 30% (best descryptor) = -10% base chance


"Sadly you were unable to produce anything of value in this job.

This is far from an impossible job, but one that might require a few tries before succeeding."

loss: 281 mil isk
total loss: 1285.2 mill isk

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Quote:

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9. Stabber (1/4)

- Stabber bpc me:50 10 runs 2.5 mill
- Stabber 6.5 mill
- Datacore - Mechanical Engineering 8 160 mill
- Datacore - Minmatar Starship Engineering 8 56 mill
- Assembly Instructions 35 mill
- (Cryptic Data Interface 0 isk)
Skills: MInmatar Encryption Methods IV
Mechanical Engineering IV
Minmatar Starship Engineering IV

total: 281 mill isk

"Sadly you were unable to produce anything of value in this job.

This is far from an impossible job, but one that might require a few tries before succeeding."

loss: 281 mil isk
total loss: 1285.2 mill isk

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Originally by: RyMcQeN I

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Quote:

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9. Stabber (1/4)

- Stabber bpc me:50 10 runs 2.5 mill
- Stabber 6.5 mill
- Datacore - Mechanical Engineering 8 160 mill
- Datacore - Minmatar Starship Engineering 8 56 mill
- Assembly Instructions 35 mill
- (Cryptic Data Interface 0 isk)
Skills: MInmatar Encryption Methods IV
Mechanical Engineering IV
Minmatar Starship Engineering IV

total: 281 mill isk

"Sadly you were unable to produce anything of value in this job.

This is far from an impossible job, but one that might require a few tries before succeeding."

loss: 281 mil isk
total loss: 1285.2 mill isk

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Just to clarify, you need the Cryptic Ship Data Interface for this right? Not just the Cryptic Data Interface?

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Originally by: Devian 666

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The only thing currently holding up the high price of data cores is the 4 cores per day striction. There are a lot more potential data cores that could be released everyday, especially given that most people have to go out of their way to pick them up.

More data core supply means, hopefully, lower prices.

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Originally by: maarud

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they are only found in exploration or via minmatar agents, so they are alot harder to get than other datacores.

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Originally by: HighBirdDeuce

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Can someone explain the reason for using a multiple run BPC in the process. Wouldn't a one run do just as well?

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Originally by: HighBirdDeuce

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is it a 1 for 1 relationship betweent he bpc number of runs and the invention and the possible number?

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Originally by: maarud

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Originally by: HighBirdDeuce

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is it a 1 for 1 relationship betweent he bpc number of runs and the invention and the possible number?

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In regards to the BPC, the figures on it are drastically reduced when they are turned into a T2 BPC, these figures include the ME, PE and number of Runs.

Hence, the higher ME, PE and Runs on the BPC you use in invention, the better your T2 BPC will be, hence max runs is optimal.

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Originally by: Hermes Massai

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Because datacores have no intrinsic value. Their only use is in Invention, thus their value is determined by what you can invent using those datacores and the value of the item you are trying to invent. The price is also influenced by demand and supply, but Invention effectively caps it.

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Originally by: Dyeadmheet

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Ok, here's another datapoint. I don't really want to give away all the details on what I'm making since it's one of the few profitable things to make, and I still need to sell 42 of these before the price goes down below the profitable level. All I'll say is that it's a module and I believe the same rules to apply to most modules. This is the only type of module I've tried though. I always used a max run BPC.

Job #1:
Encryption 3, Supporting Skills 3
The "+4 run 1.3 success multiplier" decryptor, Best available named item
Great news! You were successful in producing a new Tech II blueprint!

Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much.

Blueprint details:
Number of Runs: 14
Material Level: -7
Productivity Level: -2

Job #2: Same as above, failed.

Job #3: Got Encryption 4 by this time. Succeeded with: "You have a good feeling this job is perfectly suited to someone of your talents."

Job #4: Succeeded with: "You have a good feeling this job is perfectly suited to someone of your talents."

Job #5: Succeeded with: "Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much."

Job #6: "Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much."

Job #7: Failed

Job #8: "You succeeded, but you have a nagging feeling that you can't count on it every time."

So I get the feeling that the message has to do with how close the random number came to the success threshold. (Like if the chance is 75% you get some sort of "you barely made it" if the die roll is 74. But if the chance is only 30% you get the same message if the die roll is 29.)

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Originally by: Maric

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Edited by: Maric on 09/03/2007 07:29:01
Raise Your relevant skills to one lvl5 and two lvl4. With items above You will have success rate 75-80%. However, it DOES NOT apply to ship inventing.

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Originally by: Dyeadmheet

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Edited by: Dyeadmheet on 10/03/2007 01:44:55

Originally by: Maric

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Edited by: Maric on 09/03/2007 07:29:01
Raise Your relevant skills to one lvl5 and two lvl4. With items above You will have success rate 75-80%. However, it DOES NOT apply to ship inventing.

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How many attempts is the 75-80% estimate based on?

Sadly it looks like this is going to become sort of like having Production Efficiency 5, except that you'll need level 5 in several skills that take much longer to train. You're going to need level 5 in everything to compete with others with level 5 in everything. This means that it will basically be necessary to have an additional "invention" account for those that don't already have one. :(

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Originally by: All Clear

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My question is this: where does it say that the encryption skill is required, e.g. to invent T2 1400s, you'd need minmatar encryption methods trained to at least 1.

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Originally by: All Clear

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This may be a silly question, but I haven't yet tried invention and I think I need a little clarification.

I've seen mention in this thread and elsewhere that one the 'invention requirements' is to have trained the specific encryption method of the data interface you'll be using in the invention job. I've seen speculation that the higher this particular skill is trained the 'better' the chance of a successful project.

My question is this: where does it say that the encryption skill is required, e.g. to invent T2 1400s, you'd need minmatar encryption methods trained to at least 1.

I don't see it anywhere, although I do understand that you have to have those skills trained to build a particular data interface. The skill req doesn't show up in my invention ui, nor does it make any mention of skilllevel bonuses given towards related tasks.

Where is this information coming from? Is it pure speculation, or an educated guess? Has anyone tried installing an invention job without that related skill trained?

Thanks a lot.

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Originally by: Dyeadmheet

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Edited by: Dyeadmheet on 10/03/2007 01:44:55

Originally by: Maric

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Edited by: Maric on 09/03/2007 07:29:01
Raise Your relevant skills to one lvl5 and two lvl4. With items above You will have success rate 75-80%. However, it DOES NOT apply to ship inventing.

---

How many attempts is the 75-80% estimate based on?

Sadly it looks like this is going to become sort of like having Production Efficiency 5, except that you'll need level 5 in several skills that take much longer to train. You're going to need level 5 in everything to compete with others with level 5 in everything. This means that it will basically be necessary to have an additional "invention" account for those that don't already have one. :(

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yes i think you have got the chance to train all relevant skills to lvl 5 now till ccp makes invention more comfortable (happened 3 times now that lvl 5 was required but later lowered to lvl3 )

so its the good question if an inventor should train all to lvl 5 to find out later lvl 3 give max chances.

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Originally by: Dyeadmheet

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Edited by: Dyeadmheet on 10/03/2007 01:44:55

Originally by: Maric

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Edited by: Maric on 09/03/2007 07:29:01
Raise Your relevant skills to one lvl5 and two lvl4. With items above You will have success rate 75-80%. However, it DOES NOT apply to ship inventing.

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How many attempts is the 75-80% estimate based on?

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Originally by: Hettere Lema

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My skills :
Minmatar Encryption Methods V
Mechanical Engineering V
Minmatar Starship Engineering V

I tried 4 inventions with best decryptor & stabber & good bpc (15 runs ME 50 / PE 50)

=> only 1 was a success (5 runs vaga).

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 Probability ME PE Runs 

Amarr
War Strategon 1.3x -3 2 4
Classic Doctrine 1.1x -2 5 1
Formation Layout 1.0x -1 3 0
Sacred Manifesto 0.8x 0 4 2
Circular Logic 0.4x -4 1 9

Caldari
Installation Guide 1.3x -3 2 4
Prototype Diagram 1.1x -2 5 1
Tuning Instructions 1.0x -1 3 0
User Manual 0.8x 0 4 2
Alignment Chart 0.4x -4 1 9

Gallente
Stolen Formulas 1.3x -3 2 4
Test Reports 1.1x -2 5 1
Collision Measurements 1.0x -1 3 0
Engagement Plan 0.8x 0 4 2
Symbiotic Figures 0.4x -4 1 9

Minmatar
Assembly Instructions 1.3x -3 2 4
Advanced Theories 1.1x -2 5 1
Calibration Data 1.0x -1 3 0
Operation Handbook 0.8x 0 4 2
Circuitry Schematics 0.4x -4 1 9

Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky

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Edited by: Dominique Vasilkovsky on 15/03/2007 16:39:37
nvm.

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Originally by: AGENT KW

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Where are the decryptors CCP ?

The 1.4 patch notes make no mention of an increase in the drops rates of decryptors. Withour these ship invention, including Hulk is completely broken.

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Originally by: AGENT KW

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Where are the decryptors CCP ?

The 1.4 patch notes make no mention of an increase in the drops rates of decryptors. Withour these ship invention, including Hulk is completely broken.

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Originally by: Cygnet Lythanea

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I think that the sucess rate on Nanofiber II's might be broken... I've tried it quite a few times and had no success. Nor has anyone I've talked to. Have any of you had any successes with inventing nanofiber II's?

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Originally by: Suittam

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Just for info regarding decryptors.

I am looting about 10/hour out of a Minmatar Cosmos hacking complex, so they are there.
Haven't checked the exploration sites for a few days, but i'm guessing the drop rate has probably been increased in the Radar sites aswell.

Also got a minmatar encryption methods sb out of the same complex, so they are dropping aswell.

--------------

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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We found lots of encryption method books from mini cosmos and all the decryptors except the "assembly instructions". You found any of them lately?

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Originally by: Fergus Runkle

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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We found lots of encryption method books from mini cosmos and all the decryptors except the "assembly instructions". You found any of them lately?

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That mirrors my experience as well. Also we have tried the Gallente hacking ccosmos complexes and not found one "Stolen formula", although quite a few of the others. Judging from the prices of the Amarrian "War Strategon" I'd say the same is happening there.

Perhaps the best chance decryptors no longer drop from cosmos at all, purely exploration now .. (ie another nerf for empire / boost for 0.0)

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Originally by: Fergus Runkle

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Originally by: Ruffio Sepico

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We found lots of encryption method books from mini cosmos and all the decryptors except the "assembly instructions". You found any of them lately?

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That mirrors my experience as well. Also we have tried the Gallente hacking ccosmos complexes and not found one "Stolen formula", although quite a few of the others. Judging from the prices of the Amarrian "War Strategon" I'd say the same is happening there.

Perhaps the best chance decryptors no longer drop from cosmos at all, purely exploration now .. (ie another nerf for empire / boost for 0.0)

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there are different lvls of cosmos hacking sites, if yours dont drop the best descryptors move to the harder version of the same spawn, normal its 1-2 jump out and be prepared to tank some nice ratz

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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Edited by: Effei Gloom on 24/03/2007 13:53:41

I think tvink still drops them (traun never did so far i know) and there are low sec cosmos constellation :)

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Originally by: Adunh Slavy

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Every invention job should produce something, even if the ME/PL is low, just like every exploration scan should produce something, every salvage attempt should produce something, even if just one low end circut board.

This trend of "give the user nothing for thier efforts" is a looser. How many people would keep miing if sometimes the mining laser produced zero ore?

Dear CCP - learn from the Casinos. They only win 5% more than the gamblers and do even worse at Roulette. You already have our chips, we want free drinks. :)

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Originally by: maarud

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Go play WoW if you want easy mode

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Originally by: CorpPunishment

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Skills at 4/4/4 9/9 Failures so far (deimos and ishtars).. Wondering whether Faction/Corp standings have any bearing on the jobs?

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Originally by: CorpPunishment

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Skills at 4/4/4 9/9 Failures so far (deimos and ishtars).. Wondering whether Faction/Corp standings have any bearing on the jobs?

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Originally by: Givemeyours

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Edited by: Givemeyours on 29/05/2007 08:33:47

Originally by: CorpPunishment

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Skills at 4/4/4 9/9 Failures so far (deimos and ishtars).. Wondering whether Faction/Corp standings have any bearing on the jobs?

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I think the standing matters a lot! Done some Inventtions in Empire (around 15-20) and only got 2 successfull jobs... Skills are 4/4/3. Before that i invented at a private POS and have a lot more success...

P.S.: I have a negative standing to the corp where i made my empire inventions... So i¦ll try the next days with better standings and then report you :D

PPS: Im talking about modules only! :)

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Originally by: Twobits PieCake

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To use base item for ship invention or not?

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Originally by: Effei Gloom

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i would be more interested to see actual invention jobs and not random brabble or whining about prices.

Keep it simple, post your invention jobs with win/loss, so others can think about too.

Datacores arent for free doesntmater which way you get them.

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Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron

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The point is you're keeping an accounting of the situation and you're making a huge mistake. It's like you were paying $40,000US for used cars and complaining that your used car lot was loosing money. Of course it is. You're paying ten-times what you should pay for your inventory.

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