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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1650
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Posted - 2016.03.05 01:18:11 -
[361] - Quote
Niko Zino wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:only way to lose it is to destroy it yourself Undocking and getting podded works as well. You will end up in your medclone for sure, but if you undock in a clone that was in a different spot, you effectively loose a clone.
just the implants
if you had 6 clones b4 you were podded you have 6 after
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1650
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Posted - 2016.03.05 01:20:53 -
[362] - Quote
nitro oxide wrote:-1 jump clone charge. I'm happy for change trying to move eve on the route to everything player owned but this just seems a step in the wrong direction. Take away the medical clone update charges then bring it back in a different format.
Instead of tax tax tax why not keep jump timers for npc stations and get rid of it for citadels?
because getting rid of JC timers opens a new can of worms
Citadel worm hole tax
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nitro oxide
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
8
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Posted - 2016.03.05 01:29:26 -
[363] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:nitro oxide wrote:-1 jump clone charge. I'm happy for change trying to move eve on the route to everything player owned but this just seems a step in the wrong direction. Take away the medical clone update charges then bring it back in a different format.
Instead of tax tax tax why not keep jump timers for npc stations and get rid of it for citadels? because getting rid of JC timers opens a new can of worms
I got worms =ƒÿÇ |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3024
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Posted - 2016.03.05 02:06:50 -
[364] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
just the implants
if you had 6 clones b4 you were podded you have 6 after
If your jump clone is actually in the same location as your medical clone it's possible to lose them. But since I saw somewhere in things that CCP were talking about clone swapping in Citadels with no timer it sounds like they are addressing some of the behind the scenes code, so that may no longer occur anyway. It will also be possible to lose jump clones in Citadels when the Citadel is destroyed. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1650
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Posted - 2016.03.05 02:34:08 -
[365] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
just the implants
if you had 6 clones b4 you were podded you have 6 after
If your jump clone is actually in the same location as your medical clone it's possible to lose them. But since I saw somewhere in things that CCP were talking about clone swapping in Citadels with no timer it sounds like they are addressing some of the behind the scenes code, so that may no longer occur anyway. It will also be possible to lose jump clones in Citadels when the Citadel is destroyed.
thats just another reason NOT to use them in a citadel
Citadel worm hole tax
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Excellion
Nexus Mercator
0
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Posted - 2016.03.05 02:41:45 -
[366] - Quote
I played EvE for a (little) while years ago and ended up re-subbing with a new account last month, and somehow ended up taking a liking to trading, a job which will likely be thrown on its head by the proposed tax and citadel changes. For the short and medium term i suspect the following things would occur:
- A 6% broker markup on purchase and sales orders will means a 12% difference between buy and sell prices. Station-to-station trading profitability by buying and selling immediately is just 6% (For me at least).
- Virtually every trader and manufacturer uses courier contracts to move trading items around. If i interpret correctly that courier contracts will not be available on citadels on release i cannot see them gaining any traction as trade hubs. This should be considered a core feature and a blocker for release. (Again, provided i read that correctly).
- Per-station broker fees are doing to be annoying for dedicated trading. For each potential trade one would have to consider the individual fee of of the station to correctly determine profitability. If that fee can just be changed at will at any time it would have to be checked for before every single trade - there is plenty of scamming, so why no 100% random tax change tactic?
If all the changes listed are bundled into a single patch i would argue they are being pushed too fast and with too much tunnel vision towards the goal of positioning citadels at the expense of the current stations. I can't claim years of experience as either an EvE player or as an economist, but i believe citadels could be implemented quite nicely without hemorrhaging stations.
- If citadels are more effective or efficient at refining and producing than stations it would attract miners and industrialists.
- Miners and industrialists need haulers to move raw goods and finished products.
- Cheaper finished products attract traders who will want to buy cheap and sell low.
- More traffic to a station means commercial potential, thus increasing trade.
Couple the above with a gradual increase in NPC station tax and people will migrate on their own, while also giving Citadels some time to settle and stabilize. To use a very silly analogy: If you want birds in your garden place some nest boxes and have them move over on their own. Running into a neighbors garden and throwing birds over the fence, nest and eggs included will not win you any affection, even if your garden ends up being the more preferable spot. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1650
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Posted - 2016.03.05 03:09:11 -
[367] - Quote
Excellion wrote:I
- If citadels are more effective or efficient at refining and producing than stations it would attract miners and industrialists.
- Miners and industrialists need haulers to move raw goods and finished products.
- Cheaper finished products attract traders who will want to buy cheap and sell low.
- More traffic to a station means commercial potential, thus increasing trade.
Except the drilling platforms are going to be much more efficient than citadels at this and currently citadels can't be used to build things
Citadel worm hole tax
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Robert Parr
Iron Tiger T3 Industries
41
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Posted - 2016.03.05 03:40:09 -
[368] - Quote
I am failing to see the point whatsoever. As am I
It seems like all con and no pro. Pretty Much, Yes.
What's the pro's of this change, from any angle? It is supposedly going to nudge people to move into citadels, and as with all changes in EVE, the pro of this is for well organized groups to benefit on the backs of those who are not (i.e. the little guy...you and I)
Who is it meant to help? Goonie Birds and their lackies, as per usual [/quote] |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1652
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Posted - 2016.03.05 03:48:09 -
[369] - Quote
Robert Parr wrote:I am failing to see the point whatsoever. As am IIt seems like all con and no pro. Pretty Much, Yes.What's the pro's of this change, from any angle? It is supposedly going to nudge people to move into citadels, and as with all changes in EVE, the pro of this is for well organized groups to benefit on the backs of those who are not (i.e. the little guy...you and I)Who is it meant to help? Goonie Birds and their lackies, as per usual [/quote]
it wont take all that much organization to set one of these up
also eve is about players interacting and working together so yes parts of the game are going to be built around that
Citadel worm hole tax
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Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
837
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Posted - 2016.03.05 03:56:30 -
[370] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Niko Zino wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: except once you make a clone you have it forever
Till you loose it, like a ship. Except you don't have to pay an undocking fee. only way to lose it is to destroy it yourself Unless it has changed, a jump clone needs to be reinstalled each time you jump to it, so not really "forever" they need to be replaced after each use. Jump clones in Citadels are nothing like forever, unless you belong to an invulnerable group who has no risk of losing one. Citadel dies, so does your 5 mil isk jump clone.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
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Robert Parr
Iron Tiger T3 Industries
41
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Posted - 2016.03.05 04:05:14 -
[371] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Charles Burger wrote:This "covering costs" thing is obviously ridiculous since NPCs don't have costs or wallets or ISK... or am I missing something here? if npcs offered jump cloning for free. you have no reason to use a reduced rate citadel version. if you're not using the citadel version then the owner has no way to recoup the fuel costs of having that service module running.
Remove the cool down timer for JC when using a citadel
OR
No extra fuel consumption for the clone vat module
OR
Provides additional bonuses for citadel owners taking the risk such as access to a portion of the tax stream already taken by NPC stations without incurring any additional fees
OR
a combination of the above
OR
any other alternative that does not involve screwing over small corps and individuals
It's really simple people get pissed when you start screwing with their sense of fair play (i.e. let them eat cake, no taxation without representation, CCP, Greed is Good ...any of this ringin a bell???) |
Robert Parr
Iron Tiger T3 Industries
41
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Posted - 2016.03.05 04:11:14 -
[372] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Niko Zino wrote: With the price of a fully fitted t1 frigate every time they want to change scenery, they just won't consider it 'free' anymore, and it will make our job a lot harder, entrenching 'null-sec' even more for casual pvpers.
Upping the installation cost of the JC isn't troubling, but the recurring fee, I'm totally scratching my head as to what problem it's supposed to address.
My 2c
Actually, it's the cost of a fully t2 fit frig. I say this because it cost 5 mil to jump to a clean clone, then the next day 5 mil to jump back. That is steep and gets back to the whole "clone costs more than the ship I lost" dilemma. Will ccp give us a chance to refund implant cost on the jump clones That will now just collect dust?
"collect dust"
Very clever, very witty +1 |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
94
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Posted - 2016.03.05 04:16:40 -
[373] - Quote
I'm not a professional trader, but like most people I do quite a bit of buying and selling stuff. I do this almost exclusively in Jita, and not because Jita always has the "best price" I could possibly find. Often enough that is not the case.
I remember well when I was living in the Tash-Murkon area (where I was born). When I tried to cobble together a new ship fit, I invariably found that I had to fly here and there to gather up the needed parts. In Jita it's "buy, buy, buy, ..., done". I also remember well when I had some stuff listed for sale even in Amarr, and it just wouldn't get sold in spite of having the lowest sell price, for weeks and weeks. I took it over to Jita, and a couple of days later I had the cash.
The huge variety of sell orders in Jita is important. The massive volume of buy orders in Jita is important.
For better or worse, I'm unlikely to move my (non-professional) trading out of Jita just because it is a bit cheaper in a citadel somewhere. Not because I'm afraid of that citadel getting blown up, or its owner playing nasty games with the charges, or whatever. Frankly, I rarely have so many trades going on as to be seriously affected even if I had to write them off as a loss. It's also not that I'm not "greedy", I sure am. I will not move out of Jita because of its "supermarket" nature. Being able to buy and sell here and now is worth quite a bit of "convenience premium" to me.
Realistically, the only thing that would make me move my trading out of Jita to some citadel is if that citadel would become a better supermarket than Jita. If Chribba opens a citadel in high sec, then maybe that could be the case. But raising taxes will not make me move to some random citadel in high sec, much less to one in low or null sec. It will just make me poorer. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1652
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Posted - 2016.03.05 04:39:27 -
[374] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Niko Zino wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: except once you make a clone you have it forever
Till you loose it, like a ship. Except you don't have to pay an undocking fee. only way to lose it is to destroy it yourself Unless it has changed, a jump clone needs to be reinstalled each time you jump to it, so not really "forever" they need to be replaced after each use. Jump clones in Citadels are nothing like forever, unless you belong to an invulnerable group who has no risk of losing one. Citadel dies, so does your 5 mil isk jump clone.
it has never been that way every time you jump you "install" a clone where you jumped from so you always have the same number unless you try to put two in the same station
Citadel worm hole tax
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Robert Parr
Iron Tiger T3 Industries
41
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Posted - 2016.03.05 05:02:59 -
[375] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Robert Parr wrote:I am failing to see the point whatsoever. As am IIt seems like all con and no pro. Pretty Much, Yes.What's the pro's of this change, from any angle? It is supposedly going to nudge people to move into citadels, and as with all changes in EVE, the pro of this is for well organized groups to benefit on the backs of those who are not (i.e. the little guy...you and I)Who is it meant to help? Goonie Birds and their lackies, as per usual
it wont take all that much organization to set one of these up
also eve is about players interacting and working together so yes parts of the game are going to be built around that[/quote]
Sure it won't.....It also won't take much organization to kill it either....and that little organization simply does not have the resources to afford to replace it
Eve is about the large blocks working together to Frack over the little people....the nice part used to be that I could a least in my own little way give the proverbial middle finger to them and do what I wanted when I wanted....with these changes, not so much anymore. It will take a little more effort but I will find a way around it and still do whatever the **** I want. I'm just vainly hoping beyond hope that CCP will actually listen to the feedback and re-think all of these changes in favor of incentivizing rather than penalizing. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1652
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Posted - 2016.03.05 05:28:22 -
[376] - Quote
Robert Parr wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Robert Parr wrote:I am failing to see the point whatsoever. As am IIt seems like all con and no pro. Pretty Much, Yes.What's the pro's of this change, from any angle? It is supposedly going to nudge people to move into citadels, and as with all changes in EVE, the pro of this is for well organized groups to benefit on the backs of those who are not (i.e. the little guy...you and I)Who is it meant to help? Goonie Birds and their lackies, as per usual it wont take all that much organization to set one of these up also eve is about players interacting and working together so yes parts of the game are going to be built around that Sure it won't.....It also won't take much organization to kill it either....and that little organization simply does not have the resources to afford to replace it Eve is about the large blocks working together to Frack over the little people....the nice part used to be that I could a least in my own little way give the proverbial middle finger to them and do what I wanted when I wanted....with these changes, not so much anymore. It will take a little more effort but I will find a way around it and still do whatever the **** I want. I'm just vainly hoping beyond hope that CCP will actually listen to the feedback and re-think all of these changes in favor of incentivizing rather than penalizing.
okay the goal is to get the player run markets into player run citadels what carrot would you say will get player to be willing to do that?
Citadel worm hole tax
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
493
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Posted - 2016.03.05 05:41:09 -
[377] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:If Chribba opens a citadel in high sec, then maybe I've never met Chribba, but I love how he's the de-facto patron saint of this game.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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PAPULA
Black Aces I N F A M O U S
76
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Posted - 2016.03.05 05:51:39 -
[378] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station
Everytime i jump 5milion ? i think i will not use any clone jumping, because this 5mil every time you jump is insane.
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Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF Bad Intention
29
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Posted - 2016.03.05 07:06:24 -
[379] - Quote
EDIT: Things got messed up and half the post didn't go through. I'm too lazy to type it all again. |
Kaivar Lancer
Placid Import and Export
910
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Posted - 2016.03.05 07:52:31 -
[380] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
okay the goal is to get the player run markets into player run citadels what carrot would you say will get player to be willing to do that?
- have a citadel go into "Freeport" mode which is permanent and irrevocable. It means permanent docking rights for the public, and a cap on broker fees (up to 4.5%, which is the NPC minimum IIRC). With this much certainty, my chances of trading in a "freeport" citadel rises significantly. And it will help differentiate a trade-oriented citadel from the others. |
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2252
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Posted - 2016.03.05 08:13:59 -
[381] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
just the implants
if you had 6 clones b4 you were podded you have 6 after
If your jump clone is actually in the same location as your medical clone it's possible to lose them. But since I saw somewhere in things that CCP were talking about clone swapping in Citadels with no timer it sounds like they are addressing some of the behind the scenes code, so that may no longer occur anyway. It will also be possible to lose jump clones in Citadels when the Citadel is destroyed. thats just another reason NOT to use them in a citadel That's a good point. It would be stupid to store high-value clones in a Citadel for longer than just the swap. For players having more than one expensive clone this will not be feasible.
The only solution for this would be to include inactive jump clones into the asset safety mechanism.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
493
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Posted - 2016.03.05 08:40:53 -
[382] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:That's a good point. It would be stupid to store high-value clones in a Citadel for longer than just the swap. For players having more than one expensive clone this will not be feasible.
The only solution for this would be to include inactive jump clones into the asset safety mechanism. Which won't work, because it could mean that your clone would be safety'd into a station you already have a clone in. You go to jump in, server crashes because the code currently can't handle that.
The whole jump-clone tax is erecting another obstacle between players and the sandbox. It's needless, it's petty, and counter-intuitive. Some of CCP's best work recently was removing obstacles to content, not constructing more. Who can pay it and who can't, really doesn't matter. It's completely unnecessary anyway since nobody is going to be incentivized to build a seven-billion isk structure and defend it against wardecs just to save five million on the occasional jump.
Get rid of the notion that taxing jump clones, by any amount, is a good idea. In the best case scenario it accomplishes nothing, and in the worst case scenario it dis-incentivizes people from using the service which is currently still a cornerstone of EvE, which will have negative trickle-down effects on the rest of the game.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3024
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Posted - 2016.03.05 08:53:35 -
[383] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote: Which won't work, because it could mean that your clone would be safety'd into a station you already have a clone in. You go to jump in, server crashes because the code currently can't handle that.
They could of course just fix that piece of code to handle it and then it would work. But it's certainly an issue one way or another. |
motie one
Secret Passage
59
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Posted - 2016.03.05 09:18:22 -
[384] - Quote
I have been watching how this plays out on twitter reddit and here. I feel terribly sorry for the poor devs having to handle this. The comments from them seem at this point to be around finding a way to make people abandon NPC stations and force players into Citadels, with the least amount of pain while still forcing people. A nightmare task.
This reeks of a manager having given instructions, and the devs trying to comply without destroying everything they have worked towards.
This is a complete betrayal of CCP's vision to engage players and I think the quote was "to surprise and delight"?
I hope the devs FULLY DOCUMENT, where this idea came from and who commanded this destructive path.
Because when CCP Seagull sees that her Roadmap has been completely compromised, and set back for at least a year, not counting the reaction and feelings of the playerbase, that will need to be un-buggered, someone will be looking for a new career, where driving your customers at the point of a whip is acceptable.
Managing a game environment is clearly not one of their skills.
So get Back to CCP Seagulls vision, encourage behavioural changes by making Citadels, better than stations, not by making the rest of space downright painful and unpleasant to live in.
And someone needs to have a career counselling chat with personnel. |
Kaivar Lancer
Placid Import and Export
910
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Posted - 2016.03.05 09:38:29 -
[385] - Quote
Suppose we forget in trying to motivate traders to move into citadels. What about customers? What incentive do customers have in basing themselves in a citadel vs an NPC station? As it stands, it's much more convenient to base yourself in an NPC station. NPC stations have agents, can't be blown up and can't have docking rights revoked. If someone buys from a citadel, chances are they'll buy what they need, and any excess will be couriered it over to an NPC station for safety and convenience.
My trade slots are precious. Am I going to use my precious trade slots in a citadel with a smattering of pilots? Or am I going to sell in an NPC station where 90% of my customers are huddled? I will definitely choose the latter. However, the higher NPC fees are just going to inconvenience everyone.
Inconvenience = less fun. |
Niko Zino
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2016.03.05 10:19:01 -
[386] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Niko Zino wrote:
Undocking and getting podded works as well. You will end up in your medclone for sure, but if you undock in a clone that was in a different spot, you effectively loose a clone.
just the implants if you had 6 clones b4 you were podded you have 6 after
Now that's a trollish / pedantic answer. You have a reason to have another clone. It's in a different part of space, or it has specific implants. When you loose the pod, you loose both of these things that carried the need for a JC in the first place.
So, effectively (and I quote myself) you loose a JC. Maybe not technically, yes.
CAS, the NPC Corp that Does StuffGäó
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Queen of Rocks
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2016.03.05 11:22:46 -
[387] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Those are fair points we've been discussing internally. Initial figures show us maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost 157m ISK a month, we wanted to provide means for the owner to recoup that cost and even make a profit in general.
I expect most Cloning Bays will be installed in NullSec citadels (and WH), and allowing the owner to charge a modest fee for their use makes sense. The convenience of having a jump clone and ships/equipment in the same location will make most users happy to pay the fee. (Including myself as I mostly use jump clones to access my PI planets.)
However there is nothing wrong with maintaining the status quo in Empire for a bit longer. I don't see player setting up massive networks of Clone Bay Citadels for profit, and neither would I be quick to entrust my jump clones to a citadel that can be destroyed for lulz or taken down by the owner because he got bored with it.
Of course, once Citadels (and new markets) have been established and players are more comfortable with them it would be easy to revisit the issue and see whether a NPC tax makes sense. |
Kaivar Lancer
Placid Import and Export
911
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Posted - 2016.03.05 11:38:50 -
[388] - Quote
Queen of Rocks wrote: However there is nothing wrong with maintaining the status quo in Empire for a bit longer. I don't see player setting up massive networks of Clone Bay Citadels for profit, and neither would I be quick to entrust my jump clones to a citadel that can be destroyed for lulz or taken down by the owner because he got bored with it.
It's not even that. If a citadel owner decides to leave Eve and his citadel runs out of fuel, the clone bay and market hub goes kaput. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1652
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Posted - 2016.03.05 12:08:16 -
[389] - Quote
Niko Zino wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Niko Zino wrote:
Undocking and getting podded works as well. You will end up in your medclone for sure, but if you undock in a clone that was in a different spot, you effectively loose a clone.
just the implants if you had 6 clones b4 you were podded you have 6 after Now that's a trollish / pedantic answer. You have a reason to have another clone. It's in a different part of space, or it has specific implants. When you loose the pod, you loose both of these things that carried the need for a JC in the first place. So, effectively (and I quote myself) you loose a JC. Maybe not technically, yes.
But you would never have to re buy one and that's the issue woth just a having an initial cost
EDIT
Now with all this I don't think there should be a raised cost at all for jc because I don't think there needs to be an incentive to add a clone bay
Citadel worm hole tax
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Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1321
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Posted - 2016.03.05 13:15:35 -
[390] - Quote
Queen of Rocks wrote:neither would I be quick to entrust my jump clones to a citadel that can be destroyed for lulz or taken down by the owner because he got bored with it.
This, the only high sec clones I have exist in high sec BECAUSE of the safety. If you think I'm putting them in places where they can be destroyed whilst I'm extended afk and not even using them, then you are huffing bleach.
I'm pretty sure we all have that "vacation clone" |
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