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Jita TradeAlt
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:53:00 -
[121]
A lot of people seem to have difficulties understanding that a titan doesn't ever need to get more than a meter outside of deathstar's shield. Which I can understand since it's a completely insane concept to be able to fire the most powerful weapon in the game remotely.
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Mr Mozzie
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.02.12 13:59:00 -
[122]
The problem with nerfing a titan is that if they have a ***** in their armour, people will go out of their way to kill titans and they could all be destroyed.
That wouldn't be fair to the people who invested so much money trying to build them.
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Veriaxor
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Posted - 2007.02.12 17:19:00 -
[123]
Titans are a completely unbalanced and broken element to Eve, thrown in as a way to counter blobs without getting rid of the reasons why blobs are absolutely necessary to 0.0 warfare.
It's the worst example of mudflation I've ever seen. There needs to be some way to lock it down, and it needs to lose it's remote "I win" button. |
Shmachura
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.02.12 17:31:00 -
[124]
 Originally by: Scav Silver
Originally by: Shmachura
... I live in a nice house in the First World...
Just that proved my argument.. Thank ya..
Not that your barely-coherent post deserves a response but for your sake I'll help you out since I'm a philanthropist. Yes the world is unfair, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to right as many wrongs as possible. If you see a bank being robbed, do you just shrug and say "life is unfair" rather than calling the police?
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Scav Silver
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.13 02:10:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Shmachura
Not that your barely-coherent post deserves a response but for your sake I'll help you out since I'm a philanthropist. Yes the world is unfair, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to right as many wrongs as possible. If you see a bank being robbed, do you just shrug and say "life is unfair" rather than calling the police?
HAHA.. Only if I can get my friends to read this.. They'll say, "Probably, Scav is doin' the robbery.." And no.. I won't call the police, nor would I say "life is unfair.." Furthermore, I'm goin' to stop talkin' to ya.. I won't give free lessons in logical thinkin' to ya..
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-=Baby Seal Killer=- |
James Duar
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.13 02:14:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Scav Silver
Originally by: Shmachura
Not that your barely-coherent post deserves a response but for your sake I'll help you out since I'm a philanthropist. Yes the world is unfair, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to right as many wrongs as possible. If you see a bank being robbed, do you just shrug and say "life is unfair" rather than calling the police?
HAHA.. Only if I can get my friends to read this.. They'll say, "Probably, Scav is doin' the robbery.." And no.. I won't call the police, nor would I say "life is unfair.." Furthermore, I'm goin' to stop talkin' to ya.. I won't give free lessons in logical thinkin' to ya..
Probably for the bests since retards [like you] aren't suited to it.
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Virger
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Posted - 2007.02.13 02:27:00 -
[127]
wah?
Titans are a 130 billion investment, they should be immune to ewar. To kill a titan requires a well planned strategy but they are most certainly killable.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.13 02:34:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Virger
wah?
Titans are a 130 billion investment, they should be immune to ewar. To kill a titan requires a well planned strategy but they are most certainly killable.
Care to propose it?
Just because it costs 130 billion ISK doesn't mean it should be unkillable. It doesn't even mean it should be a particularly effective solo-pwnmobile.
The complaint being leveled here, quite rightly, is that what we have is a ship that can warp into absurd situations and there's 0 chance of it dying provided it's not being piloted by a chimp.
Carriers and Dreads IMO are probably the most balanced cap ships in EVE - powerful, but if they're not careful they die easily. They depend on a support fleet. Titan's and Motherships really don't except for the 1 cyno-alt.
A Titan with a base warp core strength of 100 would be a far more sensible vehicle then what we have now. It's still practically unkillable, but you'd be retarded to warp it into the middle of a 150 man fleet since that fleet might just have that many warp disrupters - and in that case, then you need your support fleet to bail you out.
IRL examples are generally frowned upon, but I'll do one anyway - the modern aircraft carrier is basically the deadliest tactical weapon on Earth (nukes = strategic or are ammunition for the carrier). But - it will go down surprisingly easily without it's support fleet - it might put up a strong fight, but it will be very vulnerable if it tries to solo take on a fleet of smaller vessels.
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The Speaker
The Clue Factory
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Posted - 2007.02.13 02:48:00 -
[129]
People, just give up trying to get Titans balanced. Really, you're most probably wasting your breath.
Titans and some of their capabilities will only eventually be balanced and made right if and when more alliances build them (emphasis on the 'if'). Not anytime before.
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Read.
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Neko Makai
Black Lance
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.13 02:52:00 -
[130]
Titans will be nerfed when targeted shots come into play. Can anyone say jump drive DISABLED?
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
The Keep
THE R0CK
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Posted - 2007.02.13 03:56:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Eskalin
yet another thread about nerving the game titans can be killed aand just cause your corp dosent have one you want to po0p in our punch bowl. suck it up quit the winging . if you unhappy with how ccp conduct the game quit playing. i for one am fed up with people who cant think outside the box tacticly screaming nerfbat when they get owned. realy just suck it up and get beter at the game
Or keep Somebody *cough* out of BoB?
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Cethrie
The Pretty Things
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Posted - 2007.02.13 04:10:00 -
[132]
Absolutely an utterly not signed.
If someone turns up in a Titan and you can't kill it .. leave... its a simple as that. Titans can't chase you, they can't even warp around the system effectively (i.e they are bloody slow).
Eve is about teamwork. Get a team and go kill it. When the enemy turns up with 30 t2 battleships and you have 4 cruisers, you don't come on here and whinge that they should be nerfed. You work out a tactic and you go kill them. Its the same for a Titan, its just you are going to need another tactic, apart from hoping the pilot logs with aggro  .
Titans are a huge untaking to build and should have an equally high undertaking to destroy. Remember when the Pirate faction stole one of the Empire's Titans (think it was the Serpentis stealing the Gallente Navy's Titan)? Might be a clue as to what the dev's think should take a Titan out. Half of Eve piling onto it to kill it. Multiple waves of everytype of ship dieing and dieing some more till its dead. This is the way they should go down, in flames with all guns blazing and so much destruction there is a ripple effect on the markets in eve as demand far outstrips supply to refit and resupply what was lost. i.e a monumental event. Insert any other scenario you can imagine, but it certainly wont be one were 10 guys in battleships destroy it.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.13 04:18:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Cethrie
Absolutely an utterly not signed.
If someone turns up in a Titan and you can't kill it .. leave... its a simple as that. Titans can't chase you, they can't even warp around the system effectively (i.e they are bloody slow).
Eve is about teamwork. Get a team and go kill it. When the enemy turns up with 30 t2 battleships and you have 4 cruisers, you don't come on here and whinge that they should be nerfed. You work out a tactic and you go kill them. Its the same for a Titan, its just you are going to need another tactic, apart from hoping the pilot logs with aggro .
Titans are a huge untaking to build and should have an equally high undertaking to destroy. Remember when the Pirate faction stole one of the Empire's Titans (think it was the Serpentis stealing the Gallente Navy's Titan)? Might be a clue as to what the dev's think should take a Titan out. Half of Eve piling onto it to kill it. Multiple waves of everytype of ship dieing and dieing some more till its dead. This is the way they should go down, in flames with all guns blazing and so much destruction there is a ripple effect on the markets in eve as demand far outstrips supply to refit and resupply what was lost. i.e a monumental event. Insert any other scenario you can imagine, but it certainly wont be one were 10 guys in battleships destroy it.
Which isn't how it will happen, because they won't ever be in that fight. You might note people aren't saying they shouldn't be hard to kill or able to kill lots of things.
What they are saying, is that there should be some conceivable way to make them fight you.
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.13 04:19:00 -
[134]
The titan is not "unkillable" as you guys say. If that titan just sat there you would eventually kill it with enough dreads. The titan obivously will not fight a 1v100, neither does it have a reason to fight. EvE seems to be a cat and mouse game where you have to trap your opponent. In a real war an army does not try and chase or trap another army, they don't fight to kill each other but to get land, defend there outpost, etc. Why should a titan fight when it has nothing to protect?
A real war two parties are fighting to protect something, like their outpost etc. SInce outposts and land are so undervalued compared to ships, fights are more about killing ships than completing an objective. Since when do people fight wars to kill the army(ships), they fight to win(objective).
There should be something more expensive for a titan to not run. A station that is worth more than a titan, the most important thing to his corp. You will see a battlefield outside a outpost. The enemy will have an objective where he will blow up the outpost and all assests will be lost. While the defenders will fight to their death trying to buy time till they get help from alliances or whatever. Naturally outposts will need to have more guns etc so attacking is harder, just to not make it so easy.
Well anyways as long as the titan has nothing to defend it will always run, and so will the rest of the fleet? They have nothing to gain by defending; thats why the only strategy used in this game is gank squads.
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Nim9i5
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Posted - 2007.02.13 04:21:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Nim9i5 on 13/02/2007 04:19:39
As well there are npc stations in 0.0(free protection), and outposts dont blow up after taken over? so wheres the risk? The only risk in this game is losing your ship and some pos's.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.13 04:22:00 -
[136]
It's not that it has nothing to defend either, it's that it can attack things, warp into 100v1 situations, and there is no risk that it will be destroyed because you can't make it commit to that fight without doing things which will get people banned (can spam so it can't warp).
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TwIsTeDSoLdIeR
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Posted - 2007.02.13 04:27:00 -
[137]
I cannot fly titans or motherships 'yet' so i cant say from experiance but from i hear from people and see they are bugged it could do with being on one of the priority lists of fixing.
If its broken fix it 
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.13 10:11:00 -
[138]
It would take a gank Erebus 4215 seconds to eat through the armor of a tank Avatar...without armor reps.
_________________________
~Thor Xian, Material Defender
"For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One."
Got Alliance?
Contact me ingame for alliance creation services. |
The Slayer
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
Fatal Persuasion
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Posted - 2007.02.13 10:15:00 -
[139]
How hard does a nanophoon bump them?? Coz thats the only conceivable way I can think of to kill them.
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Bazman
Caldari
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.13 11:02:00 -
[140]
Use Nanonaglfars, duh!
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Vincent R
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Posted - 2007.02.13 11:46:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Vincent R on 13/02/2007 11:42:57
Originally by: Cethrie
Absolutely an utterly not signed.
If someone turns up in a Titan and you can't kill it .. leave... its a simple as that. Titans can't chase you, they can't even warp around the system effectively (i.e they are bloody slow).
Eve is about teamwork. Get a team and go kill it. When the enemy turns up with 30 t2 battleships and you have 4 cruisers, you don't come on here and whinge that they should be nerfed. You work out a tactic and you go kill them. Its the same for a Titan, its just you are going to need another tactic, apart from hoping the pilot logs with aggro .
Titans are a huge untaking to build and should have an equally high undertaking to destroy. Remember when the Pirate faction stole one of the Empire's Titans (think it was the Serpentis stealing the Gallente Navy's Titan)? Might be a clue as to what the dev's think should take a Titan out. Half of Eve piling onto it to kill it. Multiple waves of everytype of ship dieing and dieing some more till its dead. This is the way they should go down, in flames with all guns blazing and so much destruction there is a ripple effect on the markets in eve as demand far outstrips supply to refit and resupply what was lost. i.e a monumental event. Insert any other scenario you can imagine, but it certainly wont be one were 10 guys in battleships destroy it.
The point here isn't one titan. I agree with you there, building a titan is a huge undertaking and should be a massive advantage to the alliance that has one.
The problems start when one alliance has three titans or more. It becomes impossible to do anything, because if you attack one of them the others can just cyno/jump in and take out the entire fleet. With different damage types it becomes impossible to tank it even in specifically fitted battleships. Carriers will be useless as well against this, since their fighters will be taken out by the superweapons.
I don't think motherships are particularly imbalanced compared to titans. Sure, they're very difficult to kill and do good damage, but at least they're not hugely imbalanced and you can handle them by working together and killing their fighters.
Titans however are just ridiculous in that they can clear the entire battlefield and make it 100% impossible to do anything against, for example, a POS siege since the enemy can just doomsday their own dreads to get rid of any opposing fleets.
Unfortunately, I think titans will destroy this game in the long run unless something is done soon, because when some alliances get multiple titans it will be impossible to stand against them.
This doesn't take into account the loss of fun involved here. In a year or so, any ship that isn't a capital will be totally useless in alliance-level warefare. It will be impossible for new alliances to rise and fight the old ones, because a capital fleet is such a huge financial undertaking.
Where is the fun in only capital fleets? I love EVE and think a huge fleet battle is the coolest thing I've ever seen in a game, and it would sadden me greatly if nothing is done to halt what is happening. Support fleets will be meaningless in six months unless something is done. Smaller alliances will have no chance at all to survive.
Please, please, please CCP, look at the situation and try to extrapolate what EVE will look like in a year if nothing is done, and do something about the titan superweapon. It is one of those things that are insanely cool the first time you see it, and looks good on paper as well, but it just throws the game balance out the window once an alliance has multiple titans. |
Alha Qmar
Caldari
Xenon Logistics
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Posted - 2007.02.13 11:52:00 -
[142]
Shutup whinees, when you yourself ever get to fly one of these babies you'll want them to be the way they are now.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.13 12:05:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Alha Qmar
Shutup whinees, when you yourself ever get to fly one of these babies you'll want them to be the way they are now.
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Poolpy
dev zero
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Posted - 2007.02.13 12:16:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Vincent R
The problems start when one alliance has three titans or more.
Like just now ?
Imho ccp screwed with the balancing.
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Jita TradeAlt
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Posted - 2007.02.13 14:16:00 -
[145]
It seems like I have to remind people again that titans do not ever have to get more than a meter outside of a POS bubble, since it can doomsday remotely. I've only ever seen a titan warp to grid to doomsday once or twice.
If he warps to a 200 man fleet with neut battleships then sure, he's an easy kill. But since he doesn't ever need to get into harms way like that then it isn't a very relevant scenario.
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Veriaxor
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Posted - 2007.02.13 14:17:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Vincent R
Edited by: Vincent R on 13/02/2007
This doesn't take into account the loss of fun involved here. In a year or so, any ship that isn't a capital will be totally useless in alliance-level warefare. It will be impossible for new alliances to rise and fight the old ones, because a capital fleet is such a huge financial undertaking.
This is the root of the problem. We're rapidly approaching a complete shift in game balance, and making obsolete battlecruisers/battleships in 0.0 warfare. Alliances with multiple titans will be almost completely unstoppable. Flying capital ships in combat roles will be a necessity, as anything smaller will be insta-poppped by titan superweapons. And there is no surer way to take the "fun" factor out of people's play than for them to lose ship after ship against a weapon they can't counter fired by a ship they can't hope to destroy.
And as you need to hold 0.0 space to build titans, and soon can't hope to take or hold 0.0 space without titans... well, anyone not already secure out there might as well just pack it in.
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Tammarr
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Posted - 2007.02.13 14:31:00 -
[147]
What you are outlining Veri is a very possible scenario coming closer each day...
esp with pos warfare the way it is :-/
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jokerb
Caldari
FATAL REVELATIONS
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.13 14:39:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
To all you amazing battle strategists posting in this thread please remember no MS has been killed EVER
so that means no posting:
1. Lol just nos it
2. Bump it
3. Bump it
Actually we got real close to one the other day Doing just that. Ask Helen. A timely fleet warp out in a lagfest is about the only thing that saved her(the support fleet had nothign to do with it :P ) . It is possible Everyone needs to bring it. It = a lot of guns and some risk takers. Otherwise, to the OP put your swimmies back on and get out of the deep end.
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Powdder
CL0CKW0RK 0RANGE
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Posted - 2007.02.13 15:28:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Jita TradeAlt
Currently these ships, thanks to their immunity to ALL ewar, are unkillable barring the use of exploits and/or being flown by complete idiots.
As a bonus to being unkillable, the titan can deliver a smartbomb that can wipe out entire fleets with no risk. Having been on the receving end a couple times then I really don't see what CCP thought it would add to the game. Sitting on a gate then suddenly getting blown up by something you can't kill is really not fun at all.
My suggestion would be that they could get warp scrammed like every other ship in the game and that the titan would have to be there in person to deliver the doomsday. Give them a million more in HP and hundreds of fighter drones, I don't care, just give me a chance to kill them. Having motherships/titans solo gatecamping and shurring off 100 man fleets just screams broken gameplay.
Feel free to share Titan killing tactics below, I liked the nano-naglfar one from the last thread.
Your argument is completely screwed. You are totally wrong and you need to quit the game. 1 TITAN HAS ALREADY DIED!!!!!!!!! tell you what, you spend 6 months as a corp building a mother ship (not even a titan) then have a group of 20 or so pirates kill it because you where warp scrambled/webed/ewared down to nothing. THIS is why ewar has been nerfed so many times. THIS is why big capitols have immunity. I mean what do you want?? everyone standing around holding hands while peeing on a campfire?? COME ON!!!!
EVE IS A VIOLENT GAME!!! the death penalties are harsh, get over it. I swear to god in the last week privateers have been whined about, nanoships, and now big caps. WHERE WILL IT END????
Pow is P?OED
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Veriaxor
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Posted - 2007.02.13 15:55:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Powdder
Your argument is completely screwed. You are totally wrong and you need to quit the game. 1 TITAN HAS ALREADY DIED!!!!!!!!!
It died because Cyvok logged off before his aggression timer had expired, and his titan was probed out and destroyed - unpiloted, and unprotected. Using this as an example to prove titans are killable is ridiculous.
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