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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
770
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Posted - 2016.05.06 18:45:42 -
[661] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:37k alpha if perfect application and max DPS fit and none of them have been killed. good thing my guardian tanks well over 100k and my friendly reps cycle much faster than the fighters volley.
oh yeah also forgot you are not doing any dps because my lone griffin has perma jammed all of your fighters and two of your friends fighters
And I'm totally deploying carriers in situations where a griffin would be surviving long enough to keep my fighters jammed while you chew through the 900k EHP of my carrier that is getting reps as well.
Mhmm.. see now this is just inane. I don't care if your logi can tank 100k buffer, good on you, you've got bigger problems in the other 30 people in my fleet shooting you as well.
Flying caps unsupported is dumb and has always been dumb and trying to pretend you'd ever be in a situation like that with/against me is banal. |
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Best Kept Frozen. LowSechnaya Sholupen
127
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Posted - 2016.05.06 18:52:49 -
[662] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:37k alpha if perfect application and max DPS fit and none of them have been killed. good thing my guardian tanks well over 100k and my friendly reps cycle much faster than the fighters volley.
oh yeah also forgot you are not doing any dps because my lone griffin has perma jammed all of your fighters and two of your friends fighters And I'm totally deploying carriers in situations where a griffin would be surviving long enough to keep my fighters jammed while you chew through the 900k EHP of my carrier that is getting reps as well. Mhmm.. see now this is just inane. I don't care if your logi can tank 100k buffer, good on you, you've got bigger problems in the other 30 people in my fleet shooting you as well. Flying caps unsupported is dumb and has always been dumb and trying to pretend you'd ever be in a situation like that with/against me is banal. Ok, and if there are 30 other people in your fleet, they should be able to handle any fleet smaller than the point where they enemy fleet can swat carriers' fighters like flies. In such situations they could just shoot the fighters and probably still come out isk positive even if they don't kill many of you. |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
770
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Posted - 2016.05.06 18:58:01 -
[663] - Quote
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:37k alpha if perfect application and max DPS fit and none of them have been killed. good thing my guardian tanks well over 100k and my friendly reps cycle much faster than the fighters volley.
oh yeah also forgot you are not doing any dps because my lone griffin has perma jammed all of your fighters and two of your friends fighters And I'm totally deploying carriers in situations where a griffin would be surviving long enough to keep my fighters jammed while you chew through the 900k EHP of my carrier that is getting reps as well. Mhmm.. see now this is just inane. I don't care if your logi can tank 100k buffer, good on you, you've got bigger problems in the other 30 people in my fleet shooting you as well. Flying caps unsupported is dumb and has always been dumb and trying to pretend you'd ever be in a situation like that with/against me is banal. Ok, and if there are 30 other people in your fleet, they should be able to handle any fleet smaller than the point where they enemy fleet can swat carriers' fighters like flies. In such situations they could just shoot the fighters and probably still come out isk positive even if they don't kill many of you.
If my fighters were getting primaried then they're doing their job. Play the objective. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2451
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Posted - 2016.05.06 19:41:12 -
[664] - Quote
again its not that carriers are useless it's that there is no reason to use them over other tools. your gang drops a carrier to deal with my sub cap fleet. great now my fleet drops a dread. i can now either clear off your subs faster than you can clear mine then deal with you or i can kill you then refit to deal with the sub caps.
a dread does a carriers role better the only down side is it can't move for 5 min but a decent tackle will make sure the same is true for your carrier
Citadel worm hole tax
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Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Best Kept Frozen. LowSechnaya Sholupen
127
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Posted - 2016.05.06 23:48:04 -
[665] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:again its not that carriers are useless it's that there is no reason to use them over other tools. your gang drops a carrier to deal with my sub cap fleet. great now my fleet drops a dread. i can now either clear off your subs faster than you can clear mine then deal with you or i can kill you then refit to deal with the sub caps.
a dread does a carriers role better the only down side is it can't move for 5 min but a decent tackle will make sure the same is true for your carrier Actually there's another downside to dreads: If you're fighting a mobile fleet, they can either close in and possibly get under the dread's guns, or take the fight elsewhere and leave the dread sitting there. Against a battlecruiser/battleship fleet or for fighting over stationary objects like structures or nodes, a dread is definitely the better choice though. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2456
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Posted - 2016.05.06 23:52:28 -
[666] - Quote
even then though if you are up against a mobile fleet a carrier is not going to do well keeping up nor are it's fighters.
Citadel worm hole tax
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Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1388
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Posted - 2016.05.07 09:14:25 -
[667] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:The only logi a carrier might alpha is some hilarious snowflake piece of trash fit. Don't buy into the "carrier alphas all the things zomg nerf" spiel some people are sperging, it's utterly false.
Multiple carriers....maybe, if you have like....12-24 of them. My thanatos can alpha for 27k raw damage. I don't think I've ever encountered a logi cruiser that can survive 324,000 raw alpha as you suggest. Infact apart from t2 cruisers and above, most vessels would be having a hard time surviving 2x missile volleys, when accounting for the 1600 or so DPS they're eating over the 8 second reload. A fully dps fit thanatos can whack something for 37000+ in one volley while doing a good 2100dps natively. So I disagree with what you've said and I hope you have something to back up your claim.
Go test it on sisi, I have but still no one believes me. 37k at 0 resists and a stationary target drops massively the second it moves or isn't shield BC signatures.
I was taking hits for under 300 with like 8k raw armor. I posted the logs somewhere on here. Check my post history. |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
770
|
Posted - 2016.05.07 11:12:04 -
[668] - Quote
Fighters have marginally better application than torps and cruise, respectively |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2462
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Posted - 2016.05.07 11:31:41 -
[669] - Quote
soo slightly better than the worst lol.
i still think the only thing carriers need is to let their fighters warp on grid so they can take advantage of the range. at that point i think they would be viable in a fleet
Citadel worm hole tax
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Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1388
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Posted - 2016.05.07 12:12:06 -
[670] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Fighters have marginally better application than torps and cruise, respectively
Yes, which is why alpha logi is fking preposterous.
Happy? It wasn't even linked.
4 DDA, 4 FSU, 2 omni
TEN damage and application mods.
Still barely scratching it - look at the hits, that fit has over 8600 raw armor HP. |
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
770
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Posted - 2016.05.07 14:13:38 -
[671] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Fighters have marginally better application than torps and cruise, respectively Yes, which is why alpha logi is fking preposterous. Happy? It wasn't even linked.4 DDA, 4 FSU, 2 omni TEN damage and application mods. Still barely scratching it - look at the hits, that fit has over 8600 raw armor HP. ed: linked the missiles hit for 320ish.
Ok so please post the fit of the logi that was being shot. |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1389
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Posted - 2016.05.07 14:36:42 -
[672] - Quote
It was this
[Guardian, Guardian copy 1] Damage Control II 1600mm Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Armor Thermal Hardener II Armor EM Hardener II
Alumel-Wired Enduring Sensor Booster 10MN Afterburner II
Large Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer Large Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer Large Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer Large Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Ancillary Current Router II
I know it doesn't fit, but it was sisi, so mods needed to be T2 and reppers offline. The real TQ one is actually tankier. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2462
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Posted - 2016.05.07 15:07:13 -
[673] - Quote
Lol I was going to say that's a heretical fit
Citadel worm hole tax
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Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1390
|
Posted - 2016.05.07 15:14:36 -
[674] - Quote
Yeah, you gotta play with the pieces you have on sisi though
But I mean, the tank is pretty typical, if hobo. |
Syrias Bizniz
Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation
463
|
Posted - 2016.05.07 16:19:45 -
[675] - Quote
ITT:
"On grid with my carrier are several ships that are really nasty and can **** me up, AND a Guardian, the most tanky and lowsig Logi out there.
I should try to kill the Guardian." |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2463
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Posted - 2016.05.07 16:21:37 -
[676] - Quote
What if we made the MWD charge based rather than cool down with an appropriate reload once docked. Would add a lot more choice for a carrier pilot about how far to extend his fighters as well the more it was used the more dpm you give up for reload.
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2463
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Posted - 2016.05.07 16:22:50 -
[677] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:ITT:
"On grid with my carrier are several ships that are really nasty and can **** me up, AND a Guardian, the most tanky and lowsig Logi out there.
I should try to kill the Guardian."
Considering no well tanked ship will be killed by your alpha if you don't get rid of the Guardians you'll find your target back at full health in time for your second Salvo
Citadel worm hole tax
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Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
944
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Posted - 2016.05.07 23:18:43 -
[678] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:What if we made the MWD charge based rather than cool down with an appropriate reload once docked. Would add a lot more choice for a carrier pilot about how far to extend his fighters as well the more it was used the more dpm you give up for reload. Not really, the biggest problem with projecting fighters further from your carrier is that they die so easily. Without the ability to warp, Light fighters are only viable within a reasonable recall range - Unless your prepared to spend hundreds of millions of isk and use it as ammo (once it is launched it is gone), which really isn't a viable approach when your fighters can make up more than half the cost of your ships fittings.
What seems most interesting right now, is that the price of light and superiority fighters both T1 and T2, is going up not down. 198 mil for a squad of T1 Satyr's 444 mil for a squad of T2 Satyr's 40 mil for a squad of T1 Firbolg's 139 mil for a squad of T2 Firbolg's
Even if those prices halve over time due to researched BPO's, they are still a disposable commodity required to field carriers. Are those sort of prices going to encourage players to use an all but disposable ship (without lots of - somewhat effective - Triage to try and keep them alive) or will they just see less and less use?
Light Fighters are basically designed as "single use" modules - Their price should reflect this, even at 50% of current prices they are still to expensive to use in the way they have been designed.
Argue all you like the effectiveness or not of light fighters vs guardians, the costs associated with fielding carriers needs to come down A LOT.
CCP's presumption that all Eve players are rich and will willingly throw isk away, is wrong.
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2467
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Posted - 2016.05.08 00:18:57 -
[679] - Quote
The prices are fine if you are building them yourself (about 81 mill per t2 light flight) however do to them sharing parts with citadels the support fighters are expensive right now. I agree the on grid warp would be better in just trying to throw as many ideas out as I can
Citadel worm hole tax
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Sgt Ocker
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
944
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Posted - 2016.05.08 01:29:31 -
[680] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:The prices are fine if you are building them yourself (about 81 mill per t2 light flight) however do to them sharing parts with citadels the support fighters are expensive right now. I agree the on grid warp would be better in just trying to throw as many ideas out as I can After playing around with a Super on TQ; A light fighter with a limited range MJD ability, 50KM jump with 90 second cooldown. With a zero spoolup time, would give them the ability to quickly move to engage a target. At more than 50 or 60K from the carrier, they just take too long to return so will often die before you can recall them - Is a decent trade off for the ability to engage quickly...
Building them yourself may be an option but right now, I'm not up for the 30 odd days of training to do that. Capital ship construction - For light fighters. Really?
My opinions are mine.
If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care
It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
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Cambria Steele
Furnace Thermodynamics
7
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Posted - 2016.05.10 18:47:21 -
[681] - Quote
(Page 1) To preface my argrument, I believe change is a positive attribute for any game and especially one trying to continue to grow after so many successful years. This even takes into account that New Eden is a technologically advanced universe therefore it makes senser there would be scientific developments to fix ongoing problems (and no i do not think any comparisons between Real Life ships and Eve are useful nor relevant). And advocating for carrier changes technically would not be in the best interest of small scale pvp such is the play style I have chosen to pursue in Eve but I supported it anyways.
I believe and have believed for some time carriers needed to be modified. Their role had become stale for years and were relegated to fancy healers with an unusable drone bay or a mediocre NPC ratting ship. They fortunately received a reprieve in the form of Drone Damage Amplifiers and became a more effective drone/fighter projection platform BUT at the expense of their own safety. Not only did their potential opponents also received this module, while it was effective at boosting damage output for all ships with drones and fighters (tracking was still the same), there was a sacrifice in for form of dedicating the carriers low module slots to damage instead of tank or utility module. The inclusion of the DDA into New Eden was widely seen as a good innovation and welcomed by the capuleseers. The change played directly into the risk/reward profile of Eve Online.
Now comes the Citadel patch with many changes which includes additional changes to capitals. As stated earlier, I believe carriers needed additional changes and was open to the opportunities. Many thousands of us took to the Singularity to test out the new capital changes with baited anticipation of what was to come (the Doomsday changes alone would have been enough!!!! Titans needed love because all they were for years was an expensive bridging ship that could DD from time to time). Many tests were conducted and explosions were had by all. Capitals were fun again. Though after playing around for a while, it became obvious the landscape of capitals was going to change drastically. The Titans were beasts finally. Supers were OMG WHAT and RIP armor supers especially after the new shield Slave implants. Dreads seemed like the basic glass cannon but cool until tested versus citadels then the novelty wore off. Strictly an anti-capital ship but mainly carriers and gone were the gays of dread bombs to kill a titan and supers will be a struggle. HAW dreads seemed like a potentially fun addition AND THEN I undocked a regular carrier. HAW dreads became useless almost instantaneously. Why in the vast universe of New Eden would I EVER risk a few billion ISK to tracking error or range of a HAW Dread again? As testing on Singularity proved one logically would or should not. As the damage and projection stood on Singularity, it was hard to find someone who did not think the numbers would be modified before going live! They were just too amazing so it had to be a base from which the Devs and CCP worked down from.
Then on the 27th of April the patch went LIVE and the carrier jumped into the Tranquility cyno to change the current meta drastically. Turns out the Singularity numbers were not a starting point but instead THE point on which we had to judge carriers. Within a day, the carrier transformed from a support ship in fleets to THE FLEET. A standard carrier has all but eliminated the role of standard dreadnoughts unless your fleet already owns the field and demoted it to the "Can I bring a Drake" class of ship. And HAW Dreads? Don't waste your isk brother for less damage, projection, tracking and mobility. So how did it change the game and why do I care? Well after fighting carriers in the wild of New Eden, there is no point not to use them over everything else and here is why it needs to get some review.
Basic Review Needed but more fine tuning: -The base speed of fighter squadrons from carriers is drastically increased(2305m/s), alright we can deal with this. -The squadron can go over 13,000m/s and travel across 300km+ in one micro warp drive burst? This too can be dealt with but not with scrams because the cycle still operates at full capacity as if nothing happened. This should be reviewed as it is the only ship in the game where this is the case. -The standard weaponry on the fighter which needs to be reloaded? Standard but can adapt. It is a drone built for damage and based on out a capital ship, it needs to have the ability to do so. -The 'alpha' weaponry on the fighter. Those numbers are just eye watering amazing. The poor sucker who can't escape. Luckily there is only one or two shots before reload. Wait, nope, not true. NINE shots and on a relatively short fire cycle. - The base insurance payout on a carrier is remarkably high so fielding it is not that big of a risk for the best ship out there. The insurance tables are what they have been forever and we all know it's the worst managed insurance company ever. - Reload time while fighters in space and refueling back in the carrier. Once again manageable to a degree but needs consideration. As of now, there is no reason not to constantly fire all weapons and micro back to carrier. The empty fighters can go from hundreds of kilometers away from the carrier to fully refueled and back out on target again in under 45 seconds. This is a little extreme with the application and projection already available. |
Cambria Steele
Furnace Thermodynamics
7
|
Posted - 2016.05.10 18:48:33 -
[682] - Quote
(Page 2) FULL CONSIDERATION AND REVIEW NEEDED: - Fighter Tracking and damage application ability. Not even negotiable or manageable. This needs to be addressed. Everything in Eve Online uses tracking or some aspect of it in the calculations for damage application. Even the Doomsdays of Titans have tracking and signature restrains and these are AoE weapons again. There is currently ZERO need to use anything but the fighters. Support Fighters are not needed nor why would anyone want to use them? The Fighter does everything better. |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1393
|
Posted - 2016.05.10 19:08:02 -
[683] - Quote
So many things are wrong with your "facts" I don't even know where to start. |
Truian
Furnace Thermodynamics
1
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Posted - 2016.05.10 20:18:06 -
[684] - Quote
What a cop-out reply |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1393
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Posted - 2016.05.10 20:57:24 -
[685] - Quote
Why spent time and energy on a long reply, when the post is full of garbage?
Examples:
>The empty fighters can go from hundreds of kilometers away from the carrier to fully refueled and back out on target again in under 45 seconds >Fighter Tracking and damage application ability. Not even negotiable or manageable. This needs to be addressed. Everything in Eve Online uses tracking or some aspect of it in the calculations for damage application. Even the Doomsdays of Titans have tracking and signature restrains and these are AoE weapons again >-The base speed of fighter squadrons from carriers is drastically increased(2305m/s) >Wait, nope, not true. NINE shots and on a relatively short fire cycle.
Shitposts get "cop out replies" |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2493
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Posted - 2016.05.10 23:57:59 -
[686] - Quote
yeah im not sure if she even looked at a carrier let alone flew one
you forgot the part about how carriers completely replaced the role of dreads in fleets. so now i know she has never used one of these against a capital or structure at the very least.
again carriers right now are not bad they are just not the best at anything or good at everything giving them a very limited use of other cheaper and lower sp ships
Citadel worm hole tax
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Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Best Kept Frozen. LowSechnaya Sholupen
130
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Posted - 2016.05.11 07:28:56 -
[687] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:yeah im not sure if she even looked at a carrier let alone flew one
you forgot the part about how carriers completely replaced the role of dreads in fleets. so now i know she has never used one of these against a capital or structure at the very least.
again carriers right now are not bad they are just not the best at anything or good at everything giving them a very limited use of other cheaper and lower sp ships To be fair, there are now some situations where carriers are very effective. Mainly as overkill in a micro gang setting. I've been having success and fun gate camping and picking on small numbers of cruisers and/or battleships, but there's no way I'd use a carrier in a fleet. To be viable in larger battles they need fighters with longer range and less ammo concerns, like sentry drones or the long range heavy fighters. The current fighters are very good for popping a few subcaps, but kind of terrible if the battle isn't over in 2-3 minutes or if there's enough spare DPS on the field to shoot the fighters. Even a lone ECM ship can cause huge problems, though that can be mitigated to some extent by pulling and relaunching the fighters, hoping to alpha it before the jammers finish cycling.
Carriers have a use, but it's radically different than other capitals and they don't really have a place in the same fleet as the others. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2496
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Posted - 2016.05.11 10:50:17 -
[688] - Quote
maybe a long range fighter (similar to the long range heavy fighter). It would have less tank (or fewer fighters) higher base speed longer range guns (about 15-20k for the volly) slightly more alpha but a longer cycle time (over all = or a bit less DPS than the close range)
EDIT:
as for mitigating ECM it really only works against frig/t2 ecm ships the rest are much to far out to be caught by the fighters in time :/ (hell all of them can get enough jam from 100km)
Citadel worm hole tax
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Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Best Kept Frozen. LowSechnaya Sholupen
131
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Posted - 2016.05.11 11:10:49 -
[689] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:maybe a long range fighter (similar to the long range heavy fighter). It would have less tank (or fewer fighters) higher base speed longer range guns (about 15-20k for the volly) slightly more alpha but a longer cycle time (over all = or a bit less DPS than the close range)
EDIT:
as for mitigating ECM it really only works against frig/t2 ecm ships the rest are much to far out to be caught by the fighters in time :/ (hell all of them can get enough jam from 100km) Even at 100km it can be doable with a little extra fighter speed. If you pull the fighters immediately when the ECM cycle starts, that's 1 second to recall + 5 to refuel + 1 to launch + 1 to activate MWD and tell them to move, leaving 12-13 seconds for the fighters to engage before the ECM can be activated again. It's not unreasonable for fighters to cover 90km and fire their missiles in 12 seconds. Also keep in mind that multispectral ECM has less range and racial ECM of the wrong type isn't quite 100% effective on most ships. |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1395
|
Posted - 2016.05.11 11:23:10 -
[690] - Quote
Refuelling isn't 5 secs. |
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