| Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Hellmar
   |
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:04:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Hellmar on 14/12/2003 22:07:05
As promised we will start to address the squatters with Castor. Squatters are player corps/alliances that reside at NPC stations, kill the members of the corp owning the NPC station and even refine the loot from said killings at no cost at the station. This is of course only the first step to address them, docking fees are the ultimate of course.
We have done the following:
- The "we take" part of refining is now calculated from the net yield of the refine, not the unrecoverable part. This makes players with uber skill still affected by "we take", thus no squatting unless with alts, but there is little fighting that
 , at least they have to be uber alts now due to new skills 
- There are 17 new specialty skills added. 16 skills per ore type for refining and one Scrapmetal Processing for reprocessing
- Since release we have had support for station equipment quality and that is now worked into the over all effect. Equipment quality ranges from 20%-50% combined with skill mean that a refiner that has trained refining, refining efficiency and the specialty skill required can refine at no loss at 50% and 40% stations. At 30% stations his net efficiency is 91.8%. This is excluding all "we take" due to standing
- Most of these information is now shown in the reprocessing window and how your skills and standing affect your return
- Currently all stations are 50% and will stay like that for some time. We are data mining existing refinery and market transaction logs to define the refinery equipment quality for stations.
- Currently all corporations use the same values for "we take" standing discount or surcharge, we will evolve the severity the corporations regard good and bad standing as their corporate cultures get more defined.
Please review and give us your comments.
|
Morkt Drakt
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:27:00 -
[2]
 Quote:
The "we take" part of refining is now calculated from the net yield of the refine, not the unrecoverable part. This makes players with uber skill still affected by "we take", thus no squatting unless with alts, but there is little fighting that , at least they have to be uber alts now due to new skills
Me not understand the bit about squatting and alts....
|
Victoria Madison
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:32:00 -
[3]
You're not the only one confused here Morkt.
|
ClawHammer III
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:33:00 -
[4]
Quote:
Quote:
The "we take" part of refining is now calculated from the net yield of the refine, not the unrecoverable part. This makes players with uber skill still affected by "we take", thus no squatting unless with alts, but there is little fighting that , at least they have to be uber alts now due to new skills
Me not understand the bit about squatting and alts....
I think he means that this is an attempt to combat why my corp calls ôloot miningö. The simplest solution to me would be to decrease the amount of loot drops. Most of the stuff they drop is worthless anyway. ThatÆs the main reason why it is recycled.
|
ga'ia
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:36:00 -
[5]
eh? 
__________________________________________________________ |
Morkt Drakt
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:37:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 14/12/2003 22:38:57
I know the aim Claw, just the method is entirely unclear.
I "think" hes saying that if the playr char that refines the loot is also one that killed the NPC that the loot came from, and that that NPC faction owns the station, then the "we take" element will be much higher.
In which case:
How do you determine this?
and:
Alts or non-hunting refiners completely bypass this anyway so...
erm..
more details pls 
|
Arthur Guinness
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:43:00 -
[7]
The we-take part will be affected by the standing that's what it means.
bad standings from killing lots of npc's = bad recycle results.
basically it means, refiner shouldn't kill npc's and they should do missions to gain standings. |
Halo Jones
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:46:00 -
[8]
what i think they mena, is if u stay in a rat infetsed area, kill the rats, lose standing to the station, now the station will fine your corp, by increasing the 'we take' component
thus if u have a trained refine alt at the station, they wont lose fation, so thats a 'workaround' for the initial we take.
isn't 50% one hell of a lot, for basic players?
Oberon Incorporated. |
Victoria Madison
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:49:00 -
[9]
I didn't know this is such a big problem. I've killed lots of Serpentis rats, but I've never been to a Serpentis station.
Hmmmmm...would love to have Hellmar clarify things a bit. 
|
nono
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:52:00 -
[10]
17 new skills? 16 PER ore type?
So instead of nerfing two skills people have trained forever to get (REF/REF EFF)you introduce another set of skills 17! in total to achieve the same effect? Are we going to need lvl 5 in each specialty too? 85 levels?!
|
PsychoClown
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:55:00 -
[11]
So your reducing ways to get mega even more.
|
Artean
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 22:59:00 -
[12]
Players have demanded an increased specialization in EVE since day one. This is an additional step in that direction. |
Chepe Nolon
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 23:01:00 -
[13]
I like it. Now I won't train refining at all. One thing I felt when starting with eve, was that everybody could do everything, as long as they played long enough.
|
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 23:05:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 14/12/2003 23:14:20
Edited by: Jash Illian on 14/12/2003 23:06:54
Looks like:
- Refining + Refining Efficiency 5 != 0 loss any more. May now need a specialization skill for the ore type being refined not to waste minerals
- Stations have a quality level for their refining equipment. Stations with subpar equipment can cause you to lose minerals while refining regardless of your skill
- NPC corps currently charge the same rate for refining at their stations. Will change sometime in the future based on the NPC corporation's culture (mining corps charge less/more for refining at their station than military corps)
- NPC corps ignore standings when charging for using their refinery. Will change in the future based on your standings towards that corporation
So in the end a station in Fountain might have subpar equipment (since they're pirates, not miners), might charge more for using their refineries (since they're not miners, they need more minerals) and will charge more for using their refineries if you or your corp been out killing their corpmates all day.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Blueblooded
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 23:06:00 -
[15]
Quote:
So your reducing ways to get mega even more.
That could be compensated with more ore respawn and the reintroducing of arcanor...right?
----------------------------------------
"The royal blood is blue, hence my name"
|
Morkt Drakt
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 23:10:00 -
[16]
He means 1 per ore type (1 extra skill per ore type) and 1 for "scrap/loot" making 17 in all.
|
Halo Jones
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 23:13:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Halo Jones on 14/12/2003 23:17:22
Edited by: Halo Jones on 14/12/2003 23:16:26
16 ores types? eh?
1 Veldspar
2 Scordite
3 Pyroxeres
4 Plagioclase
5 Omber
6 Kernite
7 Jaspet
8 Hemorphite
9 Hedbergite
10 Gneiss
11 Dark Ochre
12 Spodumain
13 Crokite
14 Bistot
15 Arkonor
and our new best friend
16 Mercoxit/morphite gah can't remember which is which
17 Scrap metal
Oberon Incorporated. |
PropanElgen
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 23:14:00 -
[18]
Oh great. Nerfing refiners too.
What is up with the nerfbat swinging these days?
All the angels and the puny men of god looked away...
Frightened to death by the evil that was born on that day!
|
Morkt Drakt
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 23:21:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 14/12/2003 23:22:17
it looks like a nerf superficially but its a bit deeper than that and may well work out rather well... certainly encourages some dedicated specialisation and (down the line) hoepfullly positive standings will count just as much as negative standings for specific refinery corps/players.
Interesting times.
(Especially for those in sovereign space)
|
Stoop
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 23:30:00 -
[20]
From the way I am reading it, you only need to train the skill to lvl 1 and then you can refine that ore type. Even if the skill is a lvl 8, thats still only a couple hours per one. And dont tell me you have all 17 different things to refine right now. Within a few horus you could train all the skills that are immediately pertinent to you.
If this is the case, ti really doesnt cause speciliazation, its not that big of a deal to lose 1 day time for all of this.
|
Darkwolf
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 23:32:00 -
[21]
You know the irony?
Hellmar wishes to stop 'squatters', so he introduces SIXTEEN new skills to mess up ORE refiners, and only ONE skill to mess up LOOT refiners.
Thus, your loot squatter just trains up one skill to an acceptable margin, and off he goes. Your ore refiners, all over EVE, suddenly find they have to train 6 or so of those skills to remain competitive (no miner exclusively mines just one ore - remember how we need proportions of all minerals to build stuff?).
Madness.
|
Darkwolf
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 23:34:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Darkwolf on 14/12/2003 23:40:40
Finally, I can edit this post - I had to make a post in a different board first.
Damn double posts.
|
nono
|
Posted - 2003.12.14 23:40:00 -
[23]
Edited by: nono on 14/12/2003 23:43:22
With Hellmar dropping these wonderful changes and disappearing we can only speculate eh?
You there Hellmar or to busy enjoying the show to reply? Popcorn anyone?
On with the speculation on this wonderous world of specialization.
You train Refining and then Refining efficiency to be able to refine at the most efficient level. Somewhere around a months time (average). To go to this level you have specialized somewhat already as most will use thier time for other skills.
Now you need a new skill to refine EACH ore. If for instance they are all rank 1 (Ref Eff is rank3)you will need approx 17 weeks to get back to where you were when you trained up to lvl5 RefEff. NPC standings asidde from this.
Talk about moving the goal post into the next district. Can we look forward to 17 new navigation/gunnery/missle/engineering/electronics.....etc. skills as well?
And like the 17 new research skills will we have to blow agents for these as well?
|
SerpentBlade
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 00:32:00 -
[24]
WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE...
Can we just see how this all turns out before you people explode about what it may turn into. So this game is forcing you to specialize.. i'd say its about time, and perhaps you'll now have to be specializing in certain ores only.
Flame me all you want.. but the only thing i EVER see on these boards is whining about something you aren't even sure about. I've finally snapped while reading this thread. So a refiner now needs more skills (which you don't know what they actually do, be it give ore bonuses and whatnot). How about we wait for some sort of confirmation on whats coming out, before you people start running your mouth about you being displeased... i saw it on another post, so credit to whoever first said it: "Games evolving, start doing it yourselves"
-------------------------
I don't have a signature. |
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 00:35:00 -
[25]
Edited by: j0sephine on 15/12/2003 00:38:43
"Talk about moving the goal post into the next district. Can we look forward to 17 new navigation/gunnery/missle/engineering/electronics.....etc. skills as well?"
... There already is separate skill for each gun type and size, as well as for each missile type and for each class of equipment, plus additional skills to increase efficiency. Ironically enough it makes more than 17 skills in just the Gunnery branch, with other combat equipment requiring well over 30 extra skills.
The miners only now receive the same treatment. (and still to limited degree)
"And like the 17 new research skills will we have to blow agents for these as well?"
Try 25 skills, that's the Science skill tree in Castor. :s
|
Blueblooded
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 01:02:00 -
[26]
I think that it is good to make more specialized characters - and this change might make the refining profession more valueble...but
16+1 skills is alot...I would rather had seen maby 4+1:
1 skill for common ore (veldespar - Omber)
1 skill for semi rare ore (kernite - Gneiss)
1 skill for rare ore (Dark Ochre - Arkonor)
1 skill for deap core ore (the new one..=)
1 skill for reprocessing
And to make it more worth the time, set the rank to at least 5 as with the new research skills...
----------------------------------------
"The royal blood is blue, hence my name"
|
Long Reach
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 01:10:00 -
[27]
I believe the sqauters he refers to are convoy killers who just wait till they can dock after smacking a convoy down that just left station and for example sahtogas which is claimed by blood raiders, hunting there killing blood raiders then going to the blood raider logistical support base to recycle.
|
Uuldahan
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 01:11:00 -
[28]
On the paper it's good.
More specialisations -> various ways of playing -> each player has his own strategy / departments in corps make sense -> feeling to be unique -> better.
|
Reah
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 01:16:00 -
[29]
if refining becomes standing based
it wont matter mutch for those who operate mostly in 0.0 space as u dont lose standings there and thus the worst ur gonna be is neutral
or am i wrong? or are u planing to make it so that u can gain/lose strandings in non empire space? :)
|
Morkt Drakt
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 01:17:00 -
[30]
Im not sure i understand the angst from these changes - the position is equal to all palyers so everything remains relative.
All it does is encourage, rather create, the opportunity for specialisation.
|
nails
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 01:47:00 -
[31]
All of this looks cherry to me, whatever can slow this damn game down a little, it progresses WAY too fast.
------------------
http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
|
Kaylon Syi
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 01:55:00 -
[32]
Quote:
From the way I am reading it, you only need to train the skill to lvl 1 and then you can refine that ore type. Even if the skill is a lvl 8, thats still only a couple hours per one. And dont tell me you have all 17 different things to refine right now. Within a few horus you could train all the skills that are immediately pertinent to you.
If this is the case, ti really doesnt cause speciliazation, its not that big of a deal to lose 1 day time for all of this.
Are you missiong the big picture ? I could have a level 1 of anything in the game but if I want the skill to make me money or keep my but alive I need to train it higher than lvl 1.
Thus if I find a belt with Dark Ochre and want to make my time count... I need to have the best refine ability for Dark Ochre or find someone who does. Im not gonna mine DO and then waste everything at lvl 1. I'm sure that there will be a bonus per lvl trained like the other skills.
|
Annatar
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 02:06:00 -
[33]
Intresting, intresting.
More specialisation would be good for the community. But hey, i mean 17 New Skill¦s does that make sense? 3 Skills in Meachanic, and 1 at leadership, 1 at trade, but 17 in Mining...
i like the way you deal CCP if you nerve err.. i mean "specialised" something than you do with full force. like with a 1400mm Scout on a Shuttle. The Post above about 4+1 New skills sounds good.
Next time i open my Skills i have a 45 sec. lag due load laggggg.. *just kidding*
--------------------------------------------
Never argue with an Idoit, they will drag you down to their Level and beat you with experience. |
Cao Cao
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 03:27:00 -
[34]
Ace idea, Hellmar. I like it, and I have an alt with refining 5 / refinery efficiency 5. Too many people can do just what I have done --- now the people who truly want to specialize in refining have a way to distinguish themselves from people like me who drop three weeks and get the l33t abilities.
Very very good.... I think the developers are finally learning how to develop.
|
Luther Pendragon
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 08:11:00 -
[35]
yay! excellent changes! more specializations, more chances for more people to pay a role, spreading the wealth and creating dynamic player interact.
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
MyZteRio
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 08:25:00 -
[36]
Coming Tuesday i finally reach RE5 and am now punished for training it, this is just great.
In one post i see no warp field inhibitor on every gate so i say hey why not renew for 6 months.
Now i read this and it counts 17x more to not doing so.
Abit of extra couldn't hurt, but 17 skills is madness.
Maybe 3 would be ok:
- Low Ores Rank 2
- Mid Ores Rank 3
- High Ores Rank4
Or something like this if u really want to kill miners and refiners do it the 17 skills way.
Im a treu miner refiner and now when i mine i shoot rats to defend myself, the dock at station and get punished for defending myself?
So harder rats will hurt me when mining and refining nerf will hurt me when refining.
At least i can still haul the old way else it would be triple hurt.
Sometimes u amaze me to how u can do all this and still think it will get better.
Why do u always think up crazy stuff need alot of *****ing then realize what u did and change it back again to something better?
Anyway, i will see how it turns out on tq after patch, but prepare for the "Eternal Flame."
Why am i not surprised?
-------------------------------------------------------------
A virtual Life takes 1/2 a lifetime, if it's worth living. |
Luther Pendragon
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 08:37:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 15/12/2003 08:38:21
Quote:
Coming Tuesday i finally reach RE5 and am now punished for training it, this is just great.
Punished? Yeah right. This is the chance where you have just caught up with all the other people with lvl 5 skills and are now on an even footing with them to be one of the very few best to specialize in a niche field. The others have been lvl 5 for months and now a runt like you who just trained up has now exactly the same chance to be the best speicalist? I dont feel sorry for you at all.
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
Artean
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 09:07:00 -
[38]
Punished? Are u just plain stupid, or was it a bad joke? |
Pod Me
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 09:20:00 -
[39]
I *think* I like this idea, so long as these are not just enabling skills. By that I mean "don't have skill you can't do it, have lvl1 skill you're perfect".
So long as there will be additional benefit to training the skills beyond lvl1, this is a nice idea, otherwise it'll just clutter up the character sheet.
|
MyZteRio
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 09:39:00 -
[40]
Read punished as in i trained as long as others but cannot get the same result from it.
Ok so EVE changes, everyone knows and i accept that, thats in part what makes it fun.
Also i wanted to specialise in refining abit so i trained 3 weeks to get to RE5 above also the Refining 5.
Now i will get punished to specialise because i must train 17 skills to attain my first set goal.
If it is so this will be ingame for sure yes i will also have an advantage for already having this base skill i realise that, but 17 skills is madness.
I agree with that it would be good to have some extra skills for refining to make it a better specialisation.
But do i really train 17 skills to sit in station making isk's from refining?
U can state yeah but fighting has so many skills also etc etc.
A miner needs hauling skills besides mining skils to haul, drone skills or gunnery skills to defend when solo mining refine skills to refine what he mined, do we really need 17 skills to make it a specialisation?
So in short punished is a strong word i know for what i mean. But 17 skills is a very big change aswell. Noone is going to sit in station refining to make money.
-------------------------------------------------------------
A virtual Life takes 1/2 a lifetime, if it's worth living. |
Vector Victor
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 09:54:00 -
[41]
Quote:
Read punished as in i trained as long as others but cannot get the same result from it.
Ok so EVE changes, everyone knows and i accept that, thats in part what makes it fun.
Also i wanted to specialise in refining abit so i trained 3 weeks to get to RE5 above also the Refining 5.
Now i will get punished to specialise because i must train 17 skills to attain my first set goal.
Uhm, youre still not getting it. REF and REFEFF skills are not being nullified, the new skills have ADDED benefits ABOVE REFEFF.
Granted, in the future, stations will take into effect standing and other factors to increase the amount thats wasted when refining, BUT thats why you get the added skills to SPECIALIZE even further to countermand these.
Being against more specialization of classes in a game that only has miners and fighters just mindboggles me
At least after this we will have Researchers, Manufacturers, Miners, Refiners and Fighters - either as primary og secondary specialization/profession
|
BlackPlague
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 10:11:00 -
[42]
So i guess when they introduce ... "ammo skills" you will be jumping up and down for joy?
I can see it now... Im trained for antimatter, carbonized lead, and radio crystals.
Hey... you want specialization!
Additional skills to achieve what i already spent weeks in getting.... that's gonna keep me motivated... (not to mention the increased travel times...etc that will reduce the productivity anyway)
Patch Peeps... step AWAY from the nerfbat..
My Siggie Scares Seleene... Boo! |
MyZteRio
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 10:12:00 -
[43]
Quote from my previous post.
I agree with that it would be good to have some extra skills for refining to make it a better specialisation.
But do i really train 17 skills to sit in station making isk's from refining?
U state i am against further specialisation but when u quote, quote rest as well and read what i type all the way. What i state is that in my opinion (so thats not i say its a fact) 17 skills is going over the top.
Just quoting what u need to twist is too easy.
-------------------------------------------------------------
A virtual Life takes 1/2 a lifetime, if it's worth living. |
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 10:23:00 -
[44]
"So i guess when they introduce ... "ammo skills" you will be jumping up and down for joy?"
... Might surprise you, but i suspect most people affected by it would love the idea of say "Advanced Antimatter Ammo Usage" skill that'd increase damage dealt by antimatter ammo by 5% per level. I know i would :s
"Additional skills to achieve what i already spent weeks in getting.... that's gonna keep me motivated..."
You are reading way too much into simple statement:
"There are 17 new specialty skills added. 16 skills per ore type for refining and one Scrapmetal Processing for reprocessing"
... nowhere it says these skills replace your current skills, or how they affect the play at all.
|
BlackPlague
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 11:12:00 -
[45]
Quote:
... Might surprise you, but i suspect most people affected by it would love the idea of say "Advanced Antimatter Ammo Usage" skill that'd increase damage dealt by antimatter ammo by 5% per level. I know i would :s
You say "advanced" with "increased damage"... that's not what's being introduced. Along the same lines... if you could only hit like a frigate in one sector... a civ gat gun in another, and full force in another, unless you trained for these new per type ammo skills..... etc etc.
Quote:
You are reading way too much into simple statement:
"There are 17 new specialty skills added. 16 skills per ore type for refining and one Scrapmetal Processing for reprocessing"
... nowhere it says these skills replace your current skills, or how they affect the play at all.
The "we take" part of refining is now calculated from the net yield of the refine, not the unrecoverable part.
My Siggie Scares Seleene... Boo! |
Blueblooded
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 11:32:00 -
[46]
A modified idea...
Isn't it mineral extraction? then maby you should have like a Tritanium extraction skill to maximize the amount of tritanium extraxted, if you get my point...
Instead of having 16 skills, one for each ore type you could have 8, one for each mineral type instead witch affect the amount extracted of that specific mineral.
It feels more logic...I think 
----------------------------------------
"The royal blood is blue, hence my name"
|
Cikster
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 12:13:00 -
[47]
Quote:
A modified idea...
Isn't it mineral extraction? then maby you should have like a Tritanium extraction skill to maximize the amount of tritanium extraxted, if you get my point...
Instead of having 16 skills, one for each ore type you could have 8, one for each mineral type instead witch affect the amount extracted of that specific mineral.
It feels more logic...I think
I agree with this, 1 skill per mineral sounds much more locical then 1 skill per ore.
Maybe there should be 1 skill per gun insted of 1 skill per size of gun. (sorry, just hope hellmar does not read this comment of mine)
|
Kerr AVON
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 13:21:00 -
[48]
nice idea Blueblooded.
Mineral extraction is an interesting way to go - higher level skills for zydrine/mega.
I love extra specialisation, as I have Refining 5 / Refining Efficiency 5, and would like to add more value to my character in this field.
_____________________
Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself
Combat Your 250mm Railgun II perfectly strikes Blood Arch Engraver, wrecking for 737.7 damage. |
Ruffles
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 13:50:00 -
[49]
I am sorry, but I agree with Darkwolf and MyZteRio.
To distract from the market that is Loot-harvesting, and make that more involved I can understand. After all, it isn't as mind numbingly boring as mining the ore.
I don't care what you say to be honest, you also should consider the commercials. People play to have fun, and if this is going to impact as massively on the mineral supply chain as I can picture, then you have a very poor understanding of fun.
I do NOT, may I repeat that do NOT, nor do I believe anyone else that has mined for hours on end finds it FUN. Most people I know spend hours reading books or web pages, and just dragging ore from hold-to-can.
Hellmar, seriously, refining additional skills. Nice idea.
Quantity of implementation: A little silly I am sorry to say. Really I don't see why you haven't just introduced a Recycling Skill to address the loot-harvest mining you seem to be concerned about.
I really don't intend to spend my time mining all the time, and mining more hours because of potentiall big cuts like this might bring may very well bore some customers.
Hell I have mined for months as my characters main contribution to the corp is mining and building. I have a lot of patience, but even now the mining is starting to annoy me. Its brainless, lacking involvement, lacking variation, lacking lots.
If this has as big an impact on the available supply of minerals, you could see more people 'having' to mine more to just get the same output that the factories won't change. Lets face it, unless you have changed the factories output, the demand will be the same, the supply will be weaker.
That additional mining time isn't exciting.
Thats your big issue here. The losses are respectible, the number of additional skills a little toooo over the top as regards the One-for-each-ore type in an honest opinion.
SerpentBlade: Sorry bud, but you have to factor in the work-to-fun ratio. This is a PAID for game after all, and if you want to spend your months paying to sit and watch a rock even more, thats fine for you. The work-to-fun ratio is already too high in my opinion when it comes to mining (well, where is the fun to be brutially honest?) and you really have to factor that into choices like this. That additional mining time won't interest that many people I am sorry to say. Its not a whine, thats an honest piece of constructive criticism.
If you like it or not, people have already left the game due to the comparison to a big mining simulator with less involvement/interaction. Bare in mind these are customers, and you need to keep their attention. Mining more just won't do that. Sorry.
|
Redundancy
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 13:51:00 -
[50]
From what I've read in the first post, this will reduce the station camping because now the 'we take' part remains a big art of the equation regardless of how high your own efficiency skills are. If you're blowing up their convoy ships outside the station, you're going to be paying them a lot of it in terms of the we-take. Additionally, once they've finished data mining for what they're looking for, they can reduce the quality of the equipment at those stations where the effect is worst.
Redundancy |
drunkenmaster
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 13:54:00 -
[51]
I think this is a cool idea.
The more skills available the better.
any monkey can spare the time to get Ref and RefEff, it's hardly specialising.
Now it will make a difference.
I can't understand all the moaning that people are being nerfed, though. everyone with refeff5 will *still* have refeff5 after the patch.
The only difference will be the people who want to shave a little more off the cost will train up the necessary skills to do that.
It's not like you'l lbe banned from refining this stuff if you haven't learnt the skill.
I wish the other skill areas had trees as complex as this one, the gunnery one, and the new science ones.
.
|
Ruffles
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 13:57:00 -
[52]
Blueblood, that is a far better thought to be fair. Its far more logical idea which has more merit then the current slight overdose of skills imo.
Redundancy, I still don't see why the additional 16 skills are needed for miners to hit the same issues though?
If this is some means to address this convo-nailing-refining situation you are talking about, what is the reasoning for the ore skills? Why not just make a Equipment Recycling skill if thats the main focus?
|
Shevar
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 13:59:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Shevar on 15/12/2003 14:00:26
ARCH why is this put into castor this late? Hadnt you guys put in a code stop last week? Shouldnt you guys just patch more often so you dont have to put stuff in last min... Since i really dont see why the hybrid weapons balance, new faction systems, bs npc's should be put back again for this..
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Albar Gray
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 14:00:00 -
[54]
As I see it mining and refining are 2 completely different things. I can mine real good  , but can't refine for **** . That's what my corp mates are for, filling in where I don't have the skills.
And I don't see why this should cut your income as a miner. If you sell your ore, then the new fractional pricing sould possibly see you getting richer.
And if as a refiner, there are less minerals, then increase the price when you sell them on, or try to get the ore cheaper. Specialise in an area and make your profit there.
The market is dynamic, and mineral supply to the big manufacturing corps will change with time. There is no reason why all, if any reduction has to be carried by the refiner.
-----------------------------------------------
IÆm not schizophrenic...
ThatÆs my alt
|
Deus
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 14:04:00 -
[55]
introducing these skills like this is nuts.
A better way for "specialisation" would definately be the per mineral, or the low/mid/high/recycle.
I'd put money on it that to get the same refine as you did with just ref and prod eff5, your going to need lvl5 in the particular asteroid skill and probably 5.0+ standing with the corporation/faction. (once they implement all the changes properly)
Now they need to introduce skills for each ammo type, skills for "mining" each asteroid type, etc etc.
STK Scientific
Vae, puto deus fio! |
Ruffles
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 14:39:00 -
[56]
Quote:
I'd put money on it that to get the same refine as you did with just ref and prod eff5, your going to need lvl5 in the particular asteroid skill and probably 5.0+ standing with the corporation/faction. (once they implement all the changes properly)
Lacking further information on it, this is all we can likely assume the effect will be. Please, if someone has more information I would love to hear it (Please give us an answer on that one hellmar).
IF this is the case, it would be more akin to saying your weapon ammo will do 25% or 50% less damage then they currently do until you spec level 5 in each ammo type. Would this be a more acceptable conversion for you combat turret spec'd people already (purely a question)?
Refining and mining aren't completely seperate, and I am not complaining about my individual ability to make money, please don't view this that way. I am saying if you instantly reduce the output of refining the same quantity of ore, and require specialisation to get the same result you previously had, the supply of minerals on a GLOBAL scale will not continue to meet the ability to consume those resources in construction.
That will mean more mining to meet the same requirements, which is where and why I brought in the link.
Yes I have a curse of viewing too many links down from a cause, sorry about that, and you will likely always see me posting comments about negative effects. Sorry again, but someone has to surely put in the counter views?
|
Balack
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 15:02:00 -
[57]
Could somebody who know's for CERTAIN please answer the following questions to stop all this pointless chatter and speculation:-
- What are the skill training multipliers?
- Where will we get the skills from ( agents for market)?
- Currently RE5 gives you +30%, has this changed?
Balack.
Also my preferred choice would also be based on the minerals not the ores
|
Juan Andalusian
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 15:09:00 -
[58]
Quote:
"So i guess when they introduce ... "ammo skills" you will be jumping up and down for joy?"
... Might surprise you, but i suspect most people affected by it would love the idea of say "Advanced Antimatter Ammo Usage" skill that'd increase damage dealt by antimatter ammo by 5% per level. I know i would :s
"Additional skills to achieve what i already spent weeks in getting.... that's gonna keep me motivated..."
You are reading way too much into simple statement:
"There are 17 new specialty skills added. 16 skills per ore type for refining and one Scrapmetal Processing for reprocessing"
... nowhere it says these skills replace your current skills, or how they affect the play at all.
Give me 20 more skills for ammo types, another 20 for turret range types, another 20 for turret size types and i 'll be your gimp for life.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Newg Runecasting
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 15:35:00 -
[59]
Quote:
- Currently RE5 gives you +30%, has this changed?
Me Thinks it's 32%
_______________________________
Newg Runecasting -- CEO
-(o)-
Red Eye
|
Uuldahan
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 15:49:00 -
[60]
Yeah introduce as many skills as you can CCP. I was thinking the other day about a skill specialisation per ship? This could be a good idea to drive some ships better than others? Also, That'd make sense, each ship'd have some bonus relative to their style 
|
PreTender
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 15:53:00 -
[61]
How is this going to effect the people with 5/5 refining skill ?
are they going to be the same as now and the new skill will only make it better
or are they going down in minerals ? and im just talking about the ore refining not loot
__________________________
http://www.eve-extra.com |
QSquared
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 16:15:00 -
[62]
As an Freelance miner I'm kinda worried, I never trained my refine skills up, I trained my mining skills up, and sold to the master refiners. Now that I have reached ref 5 ref eff 4 it's feasible for me to refine my own minerals, and I don't have to rely on buy orders for specific ores, and will never have to worry abotu selling off trit, and rarely pyr.
However... am I now going to have all my hard-erned refining skills nerfed? was this a big wast eof tme in the last month going from refine 1 to ref5 ref eff4? shoudl I stop training Ref-eff five and save myself 2 and 1/2 weeks? whats the deal? it's kinda confusing.
Also what squaters, are they killing the transport loot drops or rat loot drops? because I liek to kill rats, but the value of everythign they drop is so worthless that I just end up refining 95% of it all. Will that be nerfed? I mainly just want a nice ol' sec status, will stations be ****ed at you for killing rats? that makes no sence....
~Q
~Q |
Camoss
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 16:23:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Camoss on 15/12/2003 16:26:30
This is really gonna be a kick in the pants for people like me who have very limited time to play EVE. I'm having troubles as it is trying to earn enough to buy a Thorax for myself.
Now I have to spend my very-hard-earned ISK on a new skill to get the best out of my refining? Give us little guys a break we don't have a bank account of a billion ISK!
|
PreTender
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 16:38:00 -
[64]
yeah or what of those people like me who trained a long time to get both skills at lvl 5
__________________________
http://www.eve-extra.com |
Uuldahan
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 16:42:00 -
[65]
Quote:
Edited by: Camoss on 15/12/2003 16:26:30
This is really gonna be a kick in the pants for people like me who have very limited time to play EVE. I'm having troubles as it is trying to earn enough to buy a Thorax for myself.
Now I have to spend my very-hard-earned ISK on a new skill to get the best out of my refining? Give us little guys a break we don't have a bank account of a billion ISK!
You aren't obliged to buy them. But if you want to be more efficient, you'll have to.
|
Pod Me
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 16:45:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Pod Me on 15/12/2003 16:48:22
Edited by: Pod Me on 15/12/2003 16:47:53
Quote:
Since release we have had support for station equipment quality and that is now worked into the over all effect. Equipment quality ranges from 20%-50% combined with skill mean that a refiner that has trained refining, refining efficiency and the specialty skill required can refine at no loss at 50% and 40% stations. At 30% stations his net efficiency is 91.8%. This is excluding all "we take" due to standing
Maybe you guys missed this bit, the bit I've emboldened?
Looks like the key is having good refine, refinery efficiency, speciality skills, a good standing with the corp owning the station and being in a good station.
If you're missing any of those the result will be lower yield, but having 5 + 5 you've already got a head start on anybody with lesser skills. Where's the panic?
|
Dianabolic
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 17:09:00 -
[67]
Quote:
Edited by: Camoss on 15/12/2003 16:26:30
This is really gonna be a kick in the pants for people like me who have very limited time to play EVE. I'm having troubles as it is trying to earn enough to buy a Thorax for myself.
Now I have to spend my very-hard-earned ISK on a new skill to get the best out of my refining? Give us little guys a break we don't have a bank account of a billion ISK!
Then don't train it - nor refine it - sell it to me, I'll buy it at a rate that you won't make refining it yourself.
THIS IS THE POINT!
|
QSquared
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 17:12:00 -
[68]
Quote:
Edited by: Camoss on 15/12/2003 16:26:30
This is really gonna be a kick in the pants for people like me who have very limited time to play EVE. I'm having troubles as it is trying to earn enough to buy a Thorax for myself.
Now I have to spend my very-hard-earned ISK on a new skill to get the best out of my refining? Give us little guys a break we don't have a bank account of a billion ISK!
So So So F'ing true. Sigh. hope it's not as bad as it seems it probably isn't I'm more worried about travel times and pirate cvamping, seems liek we'll be trapped on jump-in now by default, and terribly screwed if we're using autopilot, because if we aren't we have 1 minute cover-time but if we are we begin moving instantly....
~Q |
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 17:20:00 -
[69]
"yeah or what of those people like me who trained a long time to get both skills at lvl 5"
Uhmm, they still have the advantage over people who didn't train those skills to the top level... because you need both the 'old' and 'new' skills for maximum efficiency?
|
Luther Pendragon
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 17:53:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 15/12/2003 17:57:18
Actually, this should be coupled with advanced mining skill...1 for each roid class. I think they should come in at the same time, mining and refining skills.
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
GFLTorque
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 18:29:00 -
[71]
"...affecting Squaters..."
As player owned stations are NOT in use yet, and there are some corps like ours that are based in 0.0 systems (as I thought was desired), I certainly hope that killing NPC's in the same system as the only STATION within 10 systems does not keep you from fully utilizing that one and only station.
If it does, then corporations will head right back to the super highway and Empire space.
|
StealthNet
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 19:08:00 -
[72]
Be careful CCP: you guys are tweaking things that are working, making things so much complicated.
The learning curve of this game is already steep, and instead of making things SIMPLER, you are making them harder to operate, understand and make.
Thats a really explosive combination.
I hope you guys have ever read a book called The Mythical Man-Month. It is starting to appear that you guys are trying to fix everything and in fact, you will get nothing fixed by introducing new code.
_______________________________________________
|
SerpentBlade
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 20:08:00 -
[73]
Edited by: SerpentBlade on 15/12/2003 20:10:33
As more time progresses, the more skills people can finish off... so without more skills to each specialty, people end up turning into all around characters. By adding new refining skills, you now have to make refiners work a bit hard to be the best at refining, preventing them from becomming masters of 1, 2, or even 3 other things in the game. We need specialization now, as to not allow people to end up being masters of all aspects of the game.
More skills = specialization. More time = despecialization. More skills now, the better
-------------------------
I don't have a signature. |
Teeth
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 20:26:00 -
[74]
Any chance the output of roids in general will be increased to accomodate for these changes so people still get the same raw stuff before and after patch?
|
Anima1
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 22:20:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Anima1 on 15/12/2003 22:26:02
Quote:
I think this is a cool idea.
The more skills available the better.
any monkey can spare the time to get Ref and RefEff, it's hardly specialising.
Now it will make a difference.
I can't understand all the moaning that people are being nerfed, though. everyone with refeff5 will *still* have refeff5 after the patch.
The only difference will be the people who want to shave a little more off the cost will train up the necessary skills to do that.
It's not like you'l lbe banned from refining this stuff if you haven't learnt the skill.
I wish the other skill areas had trees as complex as this one, the gunnery one, and the new science ones.
As for any monkey can refine LOL not many people take the 20+ days total to get that skill. I know you dont have it. Though your gunnery rank is prolly 4 to 5 on everythin.
Yep this is good for you cause miners/producers will be busy specializing now instead of catching up to you on gunneryskills. YOu come in try to promote this, kiss devs arses.
Does anyone see a target here besides me??? MINERS/PRODUCERS getting nerfed. mr si you should be supporting the miner/producer side cause the wealthier we are the more wealthy you will become in general.
MORE SKILLS TO DO THE SAME D**NED THING WE BEEN DOIN. Cuts into my time that i have spent here and the projection of where I wanna be in the game. Now everything must be done in a team or nothing. Small corps are gonna die everywhere and only be reduced to mininig dirt. Means more bodies for pirates or more bodies for megacorps.
Pls devs, let us keep on doin our solo thing if we wanted to. I know I dont wanna worry bout 10 other guys who needs what, I have to study while I mine, I cant have my eyes on them, and the book at the same time. You let guys do missions solo, but that is not everyones profession nor desire to do. I have done a whopping 12 missions. I wont do anymore, I would rather fight, burn rock all day, or burn in hell.
I see it this way, if im burning rox im keepin the systems from overloading, im not moving round to the same places your researchers/mission puppets are going, which will eventually lead to more systems overloading with players. Your current system that is inplace wont handle it.*** MARK these words.
Think about the most extreme carebear, then think bout the most extreme pvpers. Meet in the middle. Force wars by introducing a Mega Super Highway. Somethin that would warp you 25 to 30 jumps into a region. The more wars, the more ships, the more minerals, we all get happy.
|
Paul Dubois
|
Posted - 2003.12.15 22:57:00 -
[76]
Definitely going to have a major impact on the income of those who 'farm' npc pirates in their own space.
Only place to get NPC cruisers generally is outside of empire space, for a lot of people the recycling of the junk you mainly get forms a good part of the income you make. But of course killing rats drops your standing with them which means that they will take a large chunk of your recycling if youre doing it in thier own territory :-)
Which together with the fact that the price people will pay for rare pirate drop modules is going to drop with tech 2 modules coming in will mean a substantial drop in income for those who farm npc pirates in their own territory. How much of a drop remains to be seen. Plus with the introduction of the new skill for recycling loot you have a decision to make about whether to pump skill points in to it or not.
Assuming, of course, that my understanding of this is correct. All in all, a lot of hard choices going to have to be made in all areas cos from now on you really can't be good at everything, youre gonna have to choose - specialise and be good in one area or generalise and just be okay in most things.
|
Marvel Master
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 00:50:00 -
[77]
Hello hellmar,
please remove this new 16 skills to refine ore.
Better, delete the entire new patch.
You write, that EVE can be played by Freelancers. If i need 16 skills to refine my ore, then i need the help from a corporation.
Marvel
|
Dianabolic
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 00:58:00 -
[78]
Massively MULTIPLAYER online game.
U could play this game as a solo - perhaps SPECIALISE in refining scordite.
Or building Tech II Reactor Control Units.
Or supplying implants or research skills.
Or hauling.
Or spying.
Or researching, supplying Tech II bp's.
So, who can't be a freelance?
The more skills, the more opportunity to make money. Bring it on.
|
Braccas
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 01:15:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Braccas on 16/12/2003 01:19:14
Ehm..i¦m more one of the calm people around. Like everybody i got my own thoughts about tweaks, nerfs, patches however you may call it.
Maybe it¦s just a guess or the way i explain things to myself, but did anyone of you sometimes think about CCP could have had these things laying on their desks for a long time?
It¦s not like 4 people script a little here a little there, but developers getting things to run that were supposed to be in the game back when it was in an early state of design.
We truely came to a point where people even whine about specialized skills!?! I mean, hey...that¦s exactly what i expect from this awesome game. On top of that i bow down on bloodsweating coders who¦re implementing stuff that was planned to hit the screen much later.
Go contemplate and you¦ll discover that you¦re not whining about the game, but about yourself lacking imagination and creativity.
@devs: Aces! Keep it up!
|
Kalar Vrask
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 02:40:00 -
[80]
Quote:
Massively MULTIPLAYER online game.
U could play this game as a solo - perhaps SPECIALISE in refining scordite.
Or building Tech II Reactor Control Units.
Or supplying implants or research skills.
Or hauling.
Or spying.
Or researching, supplying Tech II bp's.
So, who can't be a freelance?
The more skills, the more opportunity to make money. Bring it on.
Yes, but your points are all 'ors'.
And lets face it, how goddamn boring will it be if all you do is refine? Specialisation is one thing, 17 skills for refining?
I think 17 skills is over the top. I think this is a half-cocked attempt at nerfing the player bases income, and therefore slowing down player progress because they can't get their patches & content out quick enough. Of course that could be due to stupid last-minute ideas like this.
|
FREAKZILLA1
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 06:13:00 -
[81]
u have got to be F-ing kidding me  I thought that 1254 was an excellent patch, but this patch just plain sucks all around, other than roid respawns and bs npc's, 17 skills!!
|
Slithereen
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 06:32:00 -
[82]
Instead of an Ore Refining Skills (17), I propose a simpler and more direct subsitute.
Mineral Refining Skills
Tritium
Pyerite
Mexallon
Isogen
Noxcium
Zydrine
Megacyte
So instead of 17 skills, you only have seven.
The purpose of these skills is to maximize yield and reduce wastage of a particular mineral regardless of what type of ore or loot.
Thus a refininer with Isogen Refinement skills would get more isogen whether the person is mining Omber, Kermite or Jaspet, or if it's from loot.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
|
Tarlamara Laeladithar
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 07:10:00 -
[83]
As a refiner/production specialist, Ive spent the time getting ref and ref eff to lvl 5 as well as every other industrial skill except Factory Managment.
When the new skills get here Ill pick them up to and hopefully get better at what I do then I am now... although being 99% efficient at this point while refining seems to indicate that just my current skills will yield less then that after patch with out the new ones.
Personally I find it annoying... im never going to be able to stop working on this character and finish my researcher which now needs a ton more skills too... but I will live with it.
What bothers me is the 'we take' is now based on the Net minerals refined... that means us uber specialized refiners are going to be paying more cause were better at what we do and our net yield will be larger.
Maybe it should just be a lump sum based on the total amount and modified by faction standing.....
Although I dont know how Im going to effect faction standing much considering Im flying a mammoth for hauling and only have the basic weapons skills that I started with on this character which means... yay go civ gatling.
So to sum most of that up....
Why the hell do I have to pay more because im better at what I do?
--------------------
"Wait a minute here... Im the specialist why do I have to fly to you to refine your ore. You bring your 4.0M scordite here, I'll wait. |
Braccas
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 09:17:00 -
[84]
Quote:
...Personally I find it annoying... im never going to be able to stop working on this character and finish my researcher which now needs a ton more skills too... but I will live with it...
There¦s my point. When exactly did you finish your real life character?
|
Kipkruide
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 09:53:00 -
[85]
Uhm not to be dissing the dev's but i take it they took into account something for 0.0 space,
It's a bit hard to mine there without killing a lot of the region specific type pirates, since the stations are there too are we going to be uber penalized for being in 0.0 space, which has nothing to do with 1) loot camping stations and 2) getting out of empire space which the devs seem to want for high end corps and chars.
I don't give a rats ass if they nerf loot campers to death but i will get slightly annoyed if they kill all stations for us in 0.0 space since most peeps here have a -9/10 standing towards the relevant faction.
|
Ruffles
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 10:00:00 -
[86]
Specialisation. Yes, what a wonderful thing, or is it?
Did I join this game to specialise to mine all hours of my free time? Hell no.
As the reporter from Gamespot put it. Investing time in the Mining skill isn't a choice as much a necessity. This games economy is based on minerals and the output of the market, in theory...
I joined this game for the eventual PvP potential it has. The more and more I look at it, the less and less I wonder why I bothered with other skills. It seems that the more and more specialised you get, the worse and worse the potential will be for others not already specialised in those combatting types.
Just be extremely careful how much 'specialisation' you put into incredibly mundane and BORING tasks! Its a game. Remember that last bit, entertainment should be the key here for people, not months of mundane. Yes, its good for your reoccuring revenue. If people find it fun enough to do.
Personally, I look forward to the day when mixed fleets arrive, and newbie people can also join the freys in their frigates and have fun. Not feeling they are training totally pointless skills and getting bored doing those mundane tasks, but just enjoying themselves and not feeling like risking their current ship is above their afordability.
|
Stradivarious Hawke
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 11:29:00 -
[87]
Perhaps I'm wrong but it seems to me that , judging by what the devs said ,with these changes you will still get less minerals than you can do now,even with all the proper skills at level 5 and good standings, ie more time required for a lower return.
Perhaps it makes more sense that stations belonging to factions you're on friendly terms with would charge you less but still ! .. having to specialize this much is a bit too extreme,more so if you end up getting less than before anyway.
And muplitplying skills in order to specialize in ammo types ? maybe not ..
Nemo me impune lacessit |
Dragothmar
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 11:57:00 -
[88]
Errrr let's see... I have a song!
&# Swing that funky nerf bat white boy &# ow! &#
yeah ok so I butchered a disco classic...
at least they're adding something new though - I approve of the new stuff(TM) but why does something new always involve nerfing something old? (ahem! New AB system (new) and travel times (nerfed) ahem!) isn't there a niche somewhere where you could just cram in something entirely new that changes the way we play and yet make the old ways still do-able?
*Wesside?*
*Nah, NOOOORTHSIIIIHEEEEEED in da house!* |
Chatelaine
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 13:03:00 -
[89]
Quote:
u have got to be F-ing kidding me I thought that 1254 was an excellent patch, but this patch just plain sucks all around, other than roid respawns and bs npc's, 17 skills!!
More skills = more content
This new patch will include an enormous amount of new content, that everyone screamed for: More content! Where is the content? I'll quit if you don't give me more content!!!
WTF are you guys crying about now? Now you don't want more content??? You have problems coping with change? Get used to it!
I say, bring it on! Flood the game with new thing to do, new skills to train etc etc.
|
Cao Cao
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 13:14:00 -
[90]
Quote:
Any chance the output of roids in general will be increased to accomodate for these changes so people still get the same raw stuff before and after patch?
In case you haven't noticed, the whole point is to reduce the rate at which people make money in the game. They don't like people mining in battleships, they don't like so many people in battleships period. The idea is that people make money too easily, thats why DCM takes special, low-turret ships to do.
|
Bhal'rog
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 14:28:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Bhal'rog on 16/12/2003 14:29:53
I also think the new skills are designed to limit stip mining by all the Joe Schmoos in battleships. Now peeps have to be more selective in the ore they mine. It should leave plenty of the lesser ores for the n00bs.
It also has the added effect of making a refiner a true profession, instead of something that eventually everyone can do.
|
Dianabolic
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 15:06:00 -
[92]
Quote:
Yes, but your points are all 'ors'.
And lets face it, how goddamn boring will it be if all you do is refine? Specialisation is one thing, 17 skills for refining?
I think 17 skills is over the top. I think this is a half-cocked attempt at nerfing the player bases income, and therefore slowing down player progress because they can't get their patches & content out quick enough. Of course that could be due to stupid last-minute ideas like this.
Aye, fair point (especially the last one).
So don't specialise in one area, I won't be - that's not to say that specialisation isn't a good thing. It IS a good thing - planning out training for a whole corporation to try and cover skills to maintain self sufficiency just got a whole lot harder. I do wonder, if these skills had been in-game from the start would people still be whining?
|
Gimmeelots
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 15:12:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Gimmeelots on 16/12/2003 15:29:16
Hellmar would you be kind enough to respond to the responses you have received from this post?
Many players have raised many concerns for and against these changes ,all my concerns have already been asked by other people.
So please respond with clarification to these many concerns, please do not let this go on unanswered , Thankyou.
Well i guess we will not get any clarification from Hellmar, server is going down for patch.
|
DeepFreeZe
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 15:35:00 -
[94]
You know... I though this was supposed to be a "Fun" game to play. By the time I have reached a "playable" level, everything is changed. Sounds like the whole game should be scrapped and come out with a new one down the road. Leave this one alone until then.
|
Zolton
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 15:38:00 -
[95]
Sounds like this will put my corp under. I am paying to play this?
|
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 15:42:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 16/12/2003 15:44:59
Whawhawhawhawhaaaa!
Quit the whining already !
17 skills of which you only need lvl 1 to be able to refine the ore type. You can skip all but the lowest and highest ores anyway since no-one mines them. So that leaves only about 6 to start with.
Look at a PvP specialised char, those need at least 50 skills at level 4-5 to be ³ber. A miner/refiner can be with only 21 skills Including DCM, the new mining skills and REF REF-EFF)
An NPC farmer still needs 30 or more skills to be efficient at his job. And if you've done that for 3 weeks it gets just as boring as mining/reining does. And on top of that no-one makes as much isk as a miner/refiner can.
So quit being an ******* and accept that you need to choose what to do. I chose, adn as a consequence i can not build, research, refine, or lead a corp. Big deal.
Rod
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 15:47:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 16/12/2003 15:50:01
And btw, if this puts your corp under, it would have gone under any way. Corps need to be fexible to adapt to a changing environment.
If your corp relies on one skilled refiner you'd better start by recruiting another one fast. If you have more, you only need to plan who starts with what ore refine skill, so you have no overlap.
Guys, common, think about this before flaming away at ccp and starting up the fires of doom.
Nothing big is changing here, you'll all be used to it in three weeks..
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Chatelaine
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 15:58:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Chatelaine on 16/12/2003 16:00:37
Quote:
- The "we take" part of refining is now calculated from the net yield of the refine, not the unrecoverable part. This makes players with uber skill still affected by "we take", thus no squatting unless with alts, but there is little fighting that , at least they have to be uber alts now due to new skills
Great! This also makes room for profit when player-owned-stations are in, no?
Quote:
- There are 17 new specialty skills added. 16 skills per ore type for refining and one Scrapmetal Processing for reprocessing
Great! Good refiners (R5/RE5) are no longer at "end-game" and can keep on developing/specializing.
Quote:
- Since release we have had support for station equipment quality and that is now worked into the over all effect. Equipment quality ranges from 20%-50% combined with skill mean that a refiner that has trained refining, refining efficiency and the specialty skill required can refine at no loss at 50% and 40% stations. At 30% stations his net efficiency is 91.8%. This is excluding all "we take" due to standing
Great! Ore will have to be moved around for better service that will create real pirating opportunities and need of escort.
Quote:
- Most of these information is now shown in the reprocessing window and how your skills and standing affect your return
Great!
Quote:
- Currently all stations are 50% and will stay like that for some time. We are data mining existing refinery and market transaction logs to define the refinery equipment quality for stations.
OK. (everyone: refine/recycle all you've got, before the patch!!!). Why not degrade quality gradually instead, for a smoother transition?
Quote:
- Currently all corporations use the same values for "we take" standing discount or surcharge, we will evolve the severity the corporations regard good and bad standing as their corporate cultures get more defined.
Great! This is truly something I have waited for and was kinda expecting from day one. Now standing will have an economical impact.
Of course all this is going to reduce the current profitability for me and everyone else but since it affects everyone and has many nice side effects I say: two thumbs up!
|
nono
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 16:02:00 -
[99]
Edited by: nono on 16/12/2003 16:03:17
@ BLAINE
Mining
Astro Geology
Refine
Refine Eff
Drones
Mining drone operation
Drone interfacing
Electronics
Engineering
Navigation and the slew that go with it 5 or more? (don't remember all off the top of my head I'm not in the game atm.)
Mechanic for expanders
Anchoring and its prerequisits
Sheild skills
Capacitor skills
Ship skills from Spaceship command all the way up to Battleships
Gunnery and many related weapons skills because we're not all Idiots.And many more to be an effective miner.
Yep they all add up to 'FOUR' skills.
You really are the educated one aren't you.
Now we only have to train 18 more to be miner refiners again. The 18th being DCM. OH wiat!!!!! In order to do that we will also have to have science 5 and possibly another ship skill to won't we?
|
Invicitii xchiir
|
Posted - 2003.12.16 22:45:00 -
[100]
do the SOCIAL and various TRADE skills have any effect on this?
|
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2003.12.17 00:11:00 -
[101]
Quote:
Edited by: nono on 16/12/2003 16:03:17
@ BLAINE
Mining
Astro Geology
Refine
Refine Eff
Drones
Mining drone operation
Drone interfacing
Electronics
Engineering
Navigation and the slew that go with it 5 or more? (don't remember all off the top of my head I'm not in the game atm.)
Mechanic for expanders
Anchoring and its prerequisits
Sheild skills
Capacitor skills
Ship skills from Spaceship command all the way up to Battleships
Gunnery and many related weapons skills because we're not all Idiots.And many more to be an effective miner.
Yep they all add up to 'FOUR' skills.
You really are the educated one aren't you.
Now we only have to train 18 more to be miner refiners again. The 18th being DCM. OH wiat!!!!! In order to do that we will also have to have science 5 and possibly another ship skill to won't we?
Ok let's weed this out so we get a dedicated miner/refiner (not hauler/miner/refiner/defender/ceo) shall we ?
Mining, Astro Geology, Refine, Refine Eff, Drones, Mining drone operation, Drone interfacing, Ship skills (frig, cruiser, BS, command) + add 6 of the new ore refining skills to start with. total: 17.
Now to spice things up and become really ³ber you would like electronics lvl 5 so you can fit all miner II's without adding too many CPU's in lowslots i guess. And mechanics for the expanders, right ?
Ok, but its a choice you make since you want to ba able to be your won hauler, or because you dont want to drag ore to your container every 2 seconds. well, though luck m8, your a miner/refiner not a hauler. While NPC hunting i cant afford to equip my BS with expanders just so i can reduce the amount of trips to my secure container...
Why you need engineering is beyond me atm, but you could have a point if its a prequisite.
Gunnery skills and navigation skills are only needed if you go solo. It adds nothing to your efficiency as a miner/refiner (except in time maybe) if you have protection and hauling availiable in your group (as it should be imo).
The point you missed is that i meant the total of skills that set you apart as a miner/refiner. Half of the skills you want to have have no bearing on your chosen profession, but are regarded as required for safe or comfortable gameplay for any profession (navigation/gunnery/engineering skills/electronics skills etc.), whereas a combat oriented pilot requires these skills to be able to survive the encounters that are part of his duties.
Oh , and you're misquoting me btw. I never said you would need 4 skills. I'm not stupid m8.
My point was that the castor skillchanges for refiners arent that bad at all if you compare the skills you need to be good at your job with those others need.
I also tried to make clear that you dont really need to learn them all right away to be as effective as you were. Just the few skills concerning the regularly mined ores.
All in all it's not that bad.
Rod
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Fritz Ionar
|
Posted - 2003.12.17 06:47:00 -
[102]
Great change! More specialisation, thank you CCP!
And good points from Rod Blaine. But why stopp at miner/refiner? That IMHO is 2 diffrent jobbs. Combine them and you can't expect to be as effective as some one who specialices on only one of them.
Can't wait to see more skills for specialicing in other areas as well. |
Matrix Lawnmower
|
Posted - 2003.12.17 07:13:00 -
[103]
Ah  I love to read all this mambojambo people whining about new things and more about changing old. Who have said that in RL you never should lower someones paycheck..? Well Eve is a game though and I am getting to like it even more when I see the developers are putting effort to it trying to make it somehow more realistic maybe and more challenging.
Grreat!
|
Loud Bob
|
Posted - 2003.12.17 09:11:00 -
[104]
Good Call Hellmar.
The introduction of these new skills should things more interesting. It won't make things complicated because it will only take 2 or 3 skills to get to refine the ore you are mining. After all who mines scord & veld when they are mining omb & kern.
PLUS, as far as I can tell, killing npc rats will only increase your standing with the local stations therefore reducing the WE TAKE part of the refine. Because bow many people have seen Amarr rats in Amarr territory.
NONE. Generally, the rats are enemies of the local stations. So, unless your are knocking off convoys your faction standings will not go down.
Therefore, if your mining and defending yourself (lets say in 0.8 space) and havle the skills to refine scord, plag & pyro, then you will be able to make a reasonable amount of isk.
I say again, things are looking good.
|
FingerThief
|
Posted - 2003.12.17 09:43:00 -
[105]
Edited by: FingerThief on 17/12/2003 09:44:12
Quote:
Good Call Hellmar.
The introduction of these new skills should things more interesting. It won't make things complicated because it will only take 2 or 3 skills to get to refine the ore you are mining. After all who mines scord & veld when they are mining omb & kern.
Most stripminers do !
e.g. you start mining at one end of the belt and work your way thru all ores to the other end of the belt !
|
Lockheed
|
Posted - 2003.12.17 10:18:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Lockheed on 17/12/2003 10:22:58
Quote:
Ah I love to read all this mambojambo people whining about new things and more about changing old. Who have said that in RL you never should lower someones paycheck..? Well Eve is a game though and I am getting to like it even more when I see the developers are putting effort to it trying to make it somehow more realistic maybe and more challenging.
Grreat!
It should be a challenge when you first start. Not a continual battle of learning new skills to accomplish the same thing you were doing. If your idea of fun/challenging is being nerfed to relearn, you must be a n00b. This is an attempt to get the existing players to get another account, and more team play. Small corps will die, that is where the main population is atm. I dont think they will like it. Bs's being slowed to a standstill or using all cap just to get to 1300m/s is ignorant. For those of you that stay in the game, my hat is off to you. I spent a lot of time generating an awesome character only to be nerfed down to a medium level player. With seeing mostly bad comments from players that have been here longest, I have to agree with them. 6 payments 6mill skill points means nothing i guess.
I will be loggin in every now and then to check to see if changes are made. If not, im giving my stuff away to a person, or someone that has helped me a lot in the game. Then ending myself(ingame). Heh, eve is not the only form of relaxing games to play. True crime seems to be my christmas present.
learning refining skills for each ore ? GOD! I was on my path to ref eff, now i have to be faced with 16 more skills im not ready to deal with this. I have so many skills as it is, 6.8 mill skills is as far as i had planned to go with this character. Pls update new clones and prices for them if people stay here. That will help the guys your rippin' off ccp.
________________
On a pale horse. |
Ruffles
|
Posted - 2003.12.17 12:13:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Ruffles on 17/12/2003 12:14:34
Quote:
Hellmar
As promised we will start to address the squatters with Castor. Squatters are player corps/alliances that reside at NPC stations, kill the members of the corp owning the NPC station and even refine the loot from said killings at no cost at the station. This is of course only the first step to address them, docking fees are the ultimate of course.
Hellmar, I like some of the other work and ideas recently, but this one is just plain and obvious money-grabbing.
You are, reminds me of secure containers, combatting one issue: Mass Convoy Loot Harvesting and Refining. With One, yes 1 and only 1 skill for that.
You then slap in 16 others for the mining industry in general.
I hate to say it but thats just blantantly greedy.
You want pvp? Great, so do I. You want people to build? Great, so do I - I would love to see the market working well. Is mining more hours then we currently do fun?
No. It isn't fun when you started, it isn't fun now, and it sure as hell is massively over the top in this respect.
Quote:
Cao Cao
In case you haven't noticed, the whole point is to reduce the rate at which people make money in the game. They don't like people mining in battleships, they don't like so many people in battleships period. The idea is that people make money too easily, thats why DCM takes special, low-turret ships to do.
Incredible. Sorry I disagree. So you as a pirate can still only have combat skills, and generic other skills, and reap in millions, but everyone that has to work for it if they want to see the market work, really work, has to dedicate additional months of additional account PAID FEES to doing the same job?
What is the encouragement for people to stay doing legal things? Surely more people then I see the advantages of being a pirate post this patch more so then ever before, especially with the coming warp inhibitors.
Two sides of a fight only exist whilst people see the benefits of remaining on either side.
I think this game has huge potential, but forcing people to specialize for weeks and months to do something as pathetic as this? You really have no interest in their fun surely?
Yes, as a commercial decision this is great. More time people are forced to pay to do something incredibly boring and non-fun. I hope this isn't the only reason.
Quote:
Loud Bob
The introduction of these new skills should things more interesting. It won't make things complicated because it will only take 2 or 3 skills to get to refine the ore you are mining. After all who mines scord & veld when they are mining omb & kern.
With all due respect I think its the attitude like that that give the mining en-mass the name it seems to have.
WE MINE MOSTLY Scord and Veld. I think its quite apparent you have no idea how much Tritanium and Pyerite a factory will chew through. You will NOT get that from mining Omber, Kernite and the higher ores. No where NEAR the quantities you will require. I, as only one person, can happily deplete our entire reserves of millions of tritanium very very very fast.
Yes we mine in battleships for those minerals. Why? Because mining is incredibly boring, and the less time people in my corp have to spend doing it, the more time they can actually enjoy some of the fun parts of the game. Be careful how much you are forcing people to do crap work.
The fun-to-work ratio for anyone other then a pirate is probably too high already in my opinion.
Quote:
Lockheed
This is an attempt to get the existing players to get another account, and more team play. Small corps will die, that is where the main population is atm.
It still amazes me that CCP think this game is best as an all big-corp experience. Do a little economics research, 60-80% of most governments economic income is from Small to Medium sized companies in real life. Yes big companies can be good, but they sure as hell don't out number the smaller, and more often profitable and efficient companies. You are continually ignoring this point and I fear monopoly perils will come your way eventually to your marketplace.
|
Col Hitman
|
Posted - 2003.12.19 08:44:00 -
[108]
Ok, I don't post too much but I tend to read the boards alot and love seeing the fireworks... I got one question / comment, I have been out in Fountain and have seen all the new NPC Battleships and such, but what I haven't seen is any ore biger then Dark Orch. Where is all the Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite and Spodumain hiding? Am I blind? Several corp mates also went out looking when I brougt this up and all they found was Dark O also...
|
SithEwok
|
Posted - 2003.12.19 22:38:00 -
[109]
Col Hitman,
contact me ingame
|
Lockheed
|
Posted - 2003.12.19 23:02:00 -
[110]
Quote:
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 16/12/2003 15:44:59
Whawhawhawhawhaaaa!
Quit the whining already !
17 skills of which you only need lvl 1 to be able to refine the ore type. You can skip all but the lowest and highest ores anyway since no-one mines them. So that leaves only about 6 to start with.
Look at a PvP specialised char, those need at least 50 skills at level 4-5 to be ³ber. A miner/refiner can be with only 21 skills Including DCM, the new mining skills and REF REF-EFF)
An NPC farmer still needs 30 or more skills to be efficient at his job. And if you've done that for 3 weeks it gets just as boring as mining/reining does. And on top of that no-one makes as much isk as a miner/refiner can.
Rod
You say no one makes as much isk as a miner/refiner... I SAY BULLSHNIKIES
Pirates run n hide till time to come out. They have dual or 3 accounts, they use 1 alt at a gate to come in, 1 alt at the outgoing gate while the main character rushes to the gate to where you are comming in. You jump, your warp scramed, your dead. Now the cargo you were just carrrying you prolly waited 2 weeks to deliver. maybe 20millz worth of minerals. Now take into the account that there are 100's of people doing this in a day. Some carrying special bp's, some carrrying minerals. The pirates may not get all, but the stuff they do get is worth far more than a miner could make in about 5months of mining, well... 8mos due to the new refine skills and faction bs rating you get less minerals from the ore you pull. ITs not worth being a miner anymore. Pirate corps fighting pirate corps for control over a trade route is where the isk is at. Though I will never be a pirate... its just lame and the earning potential for pirates is way overbalanced. The ol dual mwd travel should be back. I have busted many a blockade with them, but the pirates still get the guys that cannot use mwd's or have not trained the skills for it.
Was my only defense stripped from me. Now i have to feel like im being babysitteed just to take my own goods into empire. Scheduling with an entire corp is not working even in a mega corp something needs to be done and now.
________________
On a pale horse. |
JPFAmarr
|
Posted - 2003.12.20 02:32:00 -
[111]
The scrap metal skill is listed on the market but none are available. Was it missed, is it an agent rewards, is it a drop?
Generic Corporation |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |