EVE Search - In-Depth: D2 have only themselves to blame.

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Corporation, Alliance and Organization Discussions

In-Depth: D2 have only themselves to blame.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:37:00 - [1] Disclaimer 1: This thread is not intended as flamebait. I personally have nothing but respect for D2. They certainly have members who act like clowns, that much is true. Every alliance does however, so why hold the actions of a few against them? Their leadership has proven to be relatively respectful and disciplined. I am not here to flame the alliance or any of itÆs members. I mean no disrespect by sharing my opinions of what constitutes the plain facts surrounding the Erebus loss. This thread is meant to be a constructive and non-flamed discussion of what the facts of the matter are. Furthermore, this stuff is intended as something of a ôguideö for the Titan pilots out there. I am by no means an expert in this matter, so refer to Disclaimer 2. Disclaimer 2: IÆm not close-minded. IÆm open to the possibility that something I state here isnÆt factually correct, or that IÆve missed something. IÆm largely going off the top of my head here and just thinking logically. I encourage anyone who sees an error or oversight to point it out and correct it. Preferably in a non-flamey way. Disclaimer 3: I realise thereÆs already a stupid amount of threads about the Erebus loss, but I feel that the facts of the matter, and the arguments against/for the legitimacy of the kill are scattered between them all and not clearly stated in one, easily-accessible post/s. The point of this thread is to condense them into the one thing. Disclaimer 4: IÆm certainly not a neutral party in this conflict. Some of you might want to immediately label me as a fanboi/pet/blind devotee of BoB simply because I have a stake in this conflict. ThatÆs fine, but the facts I say here speak for themselves. If you want to argue something here, argue the facts, not my allegiance. If you think my allegiance has clouded my judgment, then I strongly suggest you provide a good reasoning behind why you hold this view, and furthermore, that you specifically address where my judgment has apparently failed me and provide proof as to why/where it has. First and foremost, these are the simple and unarguable facts of the matter surrounding the loss itself. -There was a spy inside D2 -That spy was somehow made aware that the Titan was logging off, or, was incredibly on the ball and was able to realise that it was about to log off. -The Titan logged off outside of the POS shield, allowing it to be aggressed as it logged. It was aggressed with a smartbomb. There was no passive targeting involved. -The Titan logged off whilst aggressed, and did not realise this fact in sufficient time to react. -Band of Brothers capitalized on the above facts ruthlessly, and mobilized an Anti-Titan fleet on the scene in under 5 minutes. Whilst it was opportunism on their behalf, it was no accident. -Band of Brothers acted in an extremely underhanded fashion, and yet, entirely within acceptable gameplay rules. They did not cheat to kill this Titan. They did not exploit to kill this Titan. It was a legitimate kill. This picture provides proof of the mechanical facts listed above (Outside POS, No passive targeter, Titan was aggressed). http://shadowforce.wiredhub.net/bob/2007.02.16.17.58.48.jpg Continued...give me a few moments to get next posts up plz.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:38:00 - [2] ItÆs my opinion that D2 only have themselves to blame for their Erebus loss, and this is why: They made mistakes in two interrelated areas. 1.They didnÆt think hard enough about possible ways they could lose the Titan. 2.They were recklessly nanve about and/or recklessly ignorant of the nature of gameplay allowed (and arguably even encouraged) in Eve. On Number 1: They didnÆt think hard enough about possible ways they could lose the Titan and had what seems to be zero contingency plans/countermeasures ready. This is in my opinion, one of their most massive failings, and the fault of the Titan loss does not rest singularly on Wotankin alone here, not in the slightest. What is a Titan people? It is a supercapital vessel that can only be built by an Empire. It represents an investment of hundreds of hours, hundreds of people and in hard ISK terms, hundreds of billions. When you factor in itÆs fitting and the support it must necessarily have to be effective, you are not talking a single hundred billion ISK, you are talking multiple hundreds. Given this rather profoundly amazing fact, D2 should have as an Alliance brainstormed every single possible way in which the Titan could die. Even the most outlandish and extreme possibility should have struck them as just that, a possibility. A possibility that needs to have a counter. Most important and obvious amongst those possible ways should have been the simple and blatant fact that if aggressed, it would not be safe to log out. It is amazing that this is how it died. This is something that the death of CyvokÆs Titan should have told them in very clear terms was something to watch out for. The death of CyvokÆs Titan should have told them that if there was an aggressed Titan to be killed, then it would be scanned down and executed. They should have realised from CyvokÆs loss that BoB scouts and/or spies would be watching that Erebus very, very, closely and that any moment they had the chance to catch it, they would not let the opportunity pass and would capitalize on it ruthlessly. It appears obvious to me, that they did not take any of this into account in any significant way. The plain fact that a Titan logged out in front of a POS, outside the shields, in front of many, many people, screams to me that they were astonishingly careless. By doing this, they opened themselves up to the Titan getting flagged with aggression. This is something they should have been aware of was a possibility. It was entirely preventable, and that is an astonishing fact. They had all the tools available to ensure that it was not a possibility, and they did not use them.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:38:00 - [3] This is how you log out a Titan if you want to log off. There is no counter to it, and it is 100% failsafe. It should have been standard procedure for D2. It was clearly, not. 1 a). Do not announce in gang/Teamspeak that you are planning to log out. Only your most trusted of trusted high command should be aware of this, and only moments before you plan on doing so. b). Do not announce it to anybody. 2. Drop from any gang you're in and turn on all damage logs. 3 a) Instantly warp from inside your POS, to your own personal deep safespot you have made in that system. b) Jump to a system where you have a personal deep safe. Preferably use your own Cyno alt to do this. Otherwise, drop instantly from the gang you used to Cyno with. Warp to your personal deep safe from the POS you cynoÆd to. 4. Cloak instantly when you arrive at the safespot. 5. Wait for 20 minutes. 6. Open your log. Ensure that there is absolutely no aggression on you. Whilst it should be impossible for you to have been aggressed whilst cloaked, this step takes all of 5 seconds and should always be done. 7. Double check that 20 minutes have passed.* 8. Open your folder that stores gamelogs. Go to the Program Files>CCP>Eve>Capture and be ready to open to the gamelogs folder. 9. Open a new client of Eve. Enter your username and password but do not log in. 10. Close the currently running client. 11. Open the gamelogs folder, ensure one last time that there is no aggression reported in the gamelogs. 12. If you are clear, close your readied client and go enjoy your Macaroni Cheese/Family Guy/Girlfriend/Day of work without any sleep because youÆve been trying to Doomsday fleets all night/etc If you want to be seriously certain. At this point you can log in a personal Covert Ops account, cloak and warp yourself to the safespot, and watch your Titan log out safely. If the Titan pilot wants to simply go afk, they do steps 1-4. They do NOT go afk at a POS. If the house is burning down, they should simply warp to a friendly POS, drop gang, and approach the Control Tower and pray that the people with access to that POS do not betray them and offline it. Betrayal by Tower-Offline is about the only way you should really lose a Titan by underhanded tactics, and there are ways even around that, such as having an emergency Cyno readied for any moment those shields drop. I will not go into contingency plans for what to do if you are somehow aggroÆd, that is somewhat out of my league. Nor will I go into any contingency plans for how to save yourself from a client crash whilst aggroÆd. I do not know if it is possible to even counter, thought I do believe it is given the appropriate hardware being on standby, however in all honesty, my speculation on a contingency plan for these things would be rather worthless. However, if you follow the above steps religiously, you should by all means be clear for logging safely.. Two other things. - The creation of a personal deep safe spot is vital, it is necessary, it is not optional. You should not be logging out in a system without one. It is a necessary tool to ensure the safe exit of your Titan from the field. If a deep safe cannot be created in a particular system because it is too small, then you simply do not log out in that system. Going afk should** be safe, however. - Additionally, you should have a covert ops alt on standby at all times, ready to make a deep safespot in any system you need one. This is just as mandatory. If you have hundreds of billions of ISK invested into a Titan, you can spare the couple of hundred million a Covert Ops character costs. Not having one is an unacceptable liability. This character can be used for visually watching yourself log too, to give you 100% certainty that you are safe.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:39:00 - [4] As you can see, this method and the contingency plans are excessively paranoid, and employ countermeasure after countermeasure after countermeasure. You are immune to scanning because youÆre cloaked. You are immune to betrayal because nobody can gang warp to you, nobody knows your safespot location and nobody/almost nobody knows youÆre even planning on logging out. You are aware of any aggro laid down upon you and you are invulnerable to it even if there has been, because youÆve waited out the timer. Even if somehow, some way, you are still nabbed, you are able to log back in very quickly and at least attempt to salvage the situation. These are incredibly simple steps to take, relative to the logistics Eve sometimes asks of you, this is a piece of cake, and thatÆs not bad considering what youÆre doing, which is ensuring a 100b+ piece of equipment is 100% safe. I am hardly an expert in Capitals, I donÆt fly them and I barely know how they work. What I do know is what everybody flying one should and could know, and that is how to log out 100% safely. IÆll repeat it again, this should be standard operating procedure for anyone flying a Titan, the things are simply too closely watched, too important to act otherwise. Some will say: ôWell a Titan pilot has a real life too you know, itÆs absurd to expect them to have to go through this process each and every time they want to logö. To those people I say, pick your Titan pilots wisely. Flying one of these things is an incredible responsibility and certain things will be expected of you. Your Titan pilot should accept that if he is flying one, he needs to leave at least 20 minutes free to log out safely. Your Titan pilot should accept that they will need to personally provide themselves with the resources to safespot safely in a way that is immune to betrayal and errors. It is an alliance-wide investment, it should always be treated as such. These are things D2 did not do people. They didnÆt even do the most basic of steps I listed here. They logged that Titan in front of people, not at a safespot, and in a fashion that allowed it to be aggressed. This is unforgivably reckless, and BoB is an unforgiving opponent. Which brings me to the Number 2 failing: They were recklessly nanve and/or recklessly ignorant of the nature of gameplay allowed (and arguably even encouraged) in Eve. Things D2 should have assumed to be true and acted upon and yet failed to. -They were thoroughly infiltrated and/or susceptible to betrayal. -That given the chance, BoB would use an underhanded tactic to destroy their Titan without any hesitation. -Their Titan was being watched extremely closely by those spies, leaving exactly zero room for error or And most importantly of all, probably the single biggest mistake they made. Something D2 should accept is part of the game they are playing. -That spies and betrayal are part of it. LetÆs not be nanve here people. Spies, betrayal, intrigue, backstabbing, underhanded tactics, thievery, scammingàthis is the bread and butter of EveÆs dark side. Furthermore, letÆs be realistic, it is not new at all. It was not invented in the last 48hrs, it was only manifested in a new and profoundly devastating way.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:39:00 - [5] LetÆs open our eyes and realise that this is something that actually adds to Eve, this isnÆt some ôdownward spiralö, quite the contrary. Furthermore, letÆs accept the plain fact that this is what CCP want for the game. This is what separates their game from the rest. In other games, if you scam someone, thatÆs considered ôunlawfulö and you are punished for it. As far as I can tell from years of Eve play, CCP view that as a sandbox mentality of arbitrary rules, and one that leaves absolutely zero room for dynamic and creative approaches to gameplay. Over the years, it has been CCP policy to not only ônot stamp this outö but to let it thrive. I am supremely confident that the realistic and ruthless nature of Eve brings many a subscriber into the game. Think about Istvaan ShogaatsuÆs heist for one. That is an epic story, truly amazing. Not only that, but itÆs Roleplay too. It is the most realistic RP you can get in any game out there to play. People who say the Titan deaths whilst offline itself not being RP are correct in the purely mechanical sense. But that is just a sad and unavoidable fact of game mechanics being incompatible with RPÆed realities. There are lots of examples of this in Eve, and Titan deaths are just one of many. Our physics, for one, are not RP perfect. There are lots of things that arenÆt. However, the intrigue, the betrayal, all of that is true roleplay. YouÆre all roleplaying here people, maybe some of you just donÆt know that. That is what Eve is all about. YouÆre right in saying itÆs underhanded and ôunfairö. ThatÆs precisely how the game is intended to work from all the signals CCP sends in the plain facts that they did not punish Istvaan or any other scammer in the vastly dark history of Eve. That is just one example. Go to Jita any day of the week, and youÆll see miniature versions of this happening daily. New Eden is filled with shady, shady people. You guys wanna know what is more valuable than a Titan and more dangerous than the Doomsday it can pump out? Trust. This is the game we play guys, best accept that and take the lessons learned from this, accept that the fault lies purely with you, and come back with some fire in your belly. See you on the field, and good luck.
Laythun Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:39:00 - [6] erm was this even necessary? D2 posted. Thats it. Like do we need an analysis of this? really? and truly? do we? Black Lance Brother
Exelsior Colossus Enterprises	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:40:00 - [7] I was about to say you have more disclaimers than the rest, until i realised it's not just the first post Currently reading it but so far I agree.
Constantinee Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:40:00 - [8] sweet lord nooey cna you ever keep it to ONE post lol but /signed Omerta Syndicate
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:41:00 - [9] Read the post mate. Disclaimer 3.
Habraka Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:42:00 - [10] Originally by: Laythun erm was this even necessary? D2 posted. Thats it. Like do we need an analysis of this? really? and truly? do we? It's a roleplay thing .

NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:45:00 - [11] Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 16:42:28 It doesn't help to make a new 9037803783 page topic about the D2 titan loss as long the titan pilot didn't know at all that BoC had did something to his ship so it didn't disapear as it should when there is no enemy agression. How many ***** times do we have to say that the agression timer was not meant to be used in this way, it was meant to avoid peoples to log WHILE they are in fight. I have sayed this like 100000 billion times today, and you still don't get it Yeah i may whine a lot in your eyes, but i have a reason for it though. Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred**
Eamz Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:46:00 - [12] The aggression timer was not implemented to be abused in this way, hence bob exploited the aggression timer to achieve something that was not intended to be possible when the timer was introduced. If it isnt exploiting, i dont know what is.
Nobues DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:47:00 - [13] Edited by: Nobues on 17/02/2007 16:44:40 Edited by: Nobues on 17/02/2007 16:44:15 So here my thinking of it. You shouldn't have to think about how you can lose something when you log out, you shouldn'thave to think about how low a alliance like BOB will go to do something. BOB are low scrum right right now, there lower then that peace of gum on the bottom of your shoe. BOB HAS YET TO KILL A TITAN! They exploited 2 deaths of a titan but they have yet to kill them. To kill something that counts they have to be loged in the game fighting anything else does not matter. and before you say "but your do the same thing", no I will not if I see the titan person log out, he logs out. I want my kills to be face to face honorable kills.
Kanthras	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:48:00 - [14] Wow. Very nice post, indeed! I 100% agree with everything in there.. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Sargonius Minmatar Legion Du Lys Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Eamz The aggression timer was not implemented to be abused in this way, hence bob exploited the aggression timer to achieve something that was not intended to be possible when the timer was introduced. If it isnt exploiting, i dont know what is. /Signed Exploits s bad but true
Laura Baretta Minmatar Caelestis Caedes	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:52:00 - [16] Edited by: Laura Baretta on 17/02/2007 16:49:17 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 16:46:32 It doesn't help to make a new 9037803783 page topic about the D2 titan loss as long the titan pilot didn't know at all that BoC had did something to his ship so it didn't disapear as it should when there is no enemy agression. How many ******* times do we have to say that the agression timer was not meant to be used in this way, it was meant to avoid peoples to log WHILE they are in fight. I have sayed this like 100000 billion times today, and you still don't get it Yeah i may whine a lot in your eyes, but i have a reason for it though. I can guarantee that alot of peoples will quit EVE over that if that doesn't get fixed soon, because it's going to happen soon again if it's not fixed. Ships in EvE were never meant to be superfast, especially BS and Nanophoons. Still, I see a ton of Nanophoon and other Nano BS flying around. Do you see where your logic is flawed? PS.: This doesnt have to happen again soon if Titan Pilots read this post and live by it.
Marcellog	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:56:00 - [17] http://shadowforce.wiredhub.net/bob/2007.02.16.18.04.22.jpg How does Titan arrived in Moon 12 after logged?
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Laura Baretta Edited by: Laura Baretta on 17/02/2007 16:49:17 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 16:46:32 It doesn't help to make a new 9037803783 page topic about the D2 titan loss as long the titan pilot didn't know at all that BoC had did something to his ship so it didn't disapear as it should when there is no enemy agression. How many ***** times do we have to say that the agression timer was not meant to be used in this way, it was meant to avoid peoples to log WHILE they are in fight. I have sayed this like 100000 billion times today, and you still don't get it Yeah i may whine a lot in your eyes, but i have a reason for it though. I can guarantee that alot of peoples will quit EVE over that if that doesn't get fixed soon, because it's going to happen soon again if it's not fixed. Ships in EvE were never meant to be superfast, especially BS and Nanophoons. Still, I see a ton of Nanophoon and other Nano BS flying around. Do you see where your logic is flawed? PS.: This doesnt have to happen again soon if Titan Pilots read this post and live by it. Is my Fiat Punto fast? no Can i make it super fast? yes And the nano bs ships doesn't have a frack ting with this titan thing to do anyways. Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred**
joshua cane Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:57:00 - [19] exuro mortis is know in all universe = bob alt corp
simcor Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:57:00 - [20] OMFG Jade has returned as Nooey

Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:57:00 - [21] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 16:46:32 It doesn't help to make a new 9037803783 page topic about the D2 titan loss as long the titan pilot didn't know at all that BoC had did something to his ship so it didn't disapear as it should when there is no enemy agression. How many ******* times do we have to say that the agression timer was not meant to be used in this way, it was meant to avoid peoples to log WHILE they are in fight. I have sayed this like 100000 billion times today, and you still don't get it Yeah i may whine a lot in your eyes, but i have a reason for it though. I can guarantee that alot of peoples will quit EVE over that if that doesn't get fixed soon, because it's going to happen soon again if it's not fixed. simply solution and its even coded into the game. Turn combatmessages ON. A popup box will report any damage and if you click "log" in your menue it will display damage done to your ship after you entered the current system. Simple but effective. Aggressing the titan in this case is like aggressing a freighter before he manages to log to save his her ship. You can claim all you want that this feature is not "working as intended" sadly it wont change the outcome. That he choose to ignore all safty features is his thing and he has to take the blame for it. Especially if you fly the most exspensive ship of your whole alliance...
Atreus Minmatarius Fatalix Inc. Schism.	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:58:00 - [22] forget about who kileld the titan and who's the titan was for a second... TWO titans have been killed offline. A ship which is meant ot be a pillar of power and damn near indestructable. At this point those beasts have been rendered pretty much useless. That is perfectlly ok with you Nooey and everyone who agrees with you?? You place no fault on CCP for broken game mechanic and many ways to abuse it? You are giving guide to log off that takes 20-30 min.. are you insane?? This is a game after all. Let's say me (let's say i'm titan pilot ) has to log of due to RL and I have to spend half an hour just logging off couse ccp can't fix it's problems? This is not how it is supposed to be. Your blame is not properly placed...
EvilFlyingMonkey Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:59:00 - [23] The d2 titan kill was pathetic, cyvoks one was acceptable, why... because he screwed up, and people should be punished for screwing up. This was premeditated, bob wanted this kill to be this way, they have made it clear that it is about winning at all costs, not a good fight. It says everything about there character. It says more about the community for this game when a good percentage of you except this scenario as legitimate. -------------------------------------------- Beware of the flying Monkeys Monkeys in outta space, protecting the freedom of the human race. Back home where i belong.
Dezra Ad Mortem Incurrite	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:03:00 - [24] CCP should implement a warning before you close the client, something like "You have been agressed and you ship will not dissapear for the next 15 minutes, do you still want to quit?" At least that way some ahole cant pull a fast one like the one D2 suffered. Eve has taken a turn for the worse, seems like BoB will stoop to the lowest level to kill a ship. I honestly cant see why some are impressed that BoB now has killed 2 Titans, while the pilots have been unable to control it. That should rather make ppl think, that its to much of a coincidence.
Edde Bebbi Amarr The Griffin	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:04:00 - [25] At the end of the day, if this was a goonswarm or RA kill on an LV titan, Everyone, and by that I mean 99% of you flamers, would be saying "good job, nice move" Why were there no crys of OMG LAME when they brought 1000 to LVs titan in production, used the first 200 to crash the node and the rest to hold the system while the defenders tried to log on. Why were there no crys of 'lame' from you guys when D2 were caught using an official website to get BoB IPs? Why didnt you cry 'lame' when an ISS director offlined an entire systems worth of towers for goonswarm? How is THAT intended by the game mechanics? Why wernt you crying lame about the recent hacking on so many different servers? I'll tell you why; because when its done to BoB and allies it is considered genious, when its done by them its considered lame. Thats all there is to it. You Hate BoB.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:04:00 - [26] Talk about how the game should be all you like guys. It's a good discussion to have by all means. The point remains however. If you do not embrace the current reality of how things are, you will lose a Titan and have nobody to blame but yourself. It is not CCP's fault you refused to act according to the current reality of game mechanics. Acting according to your perception of how the game should be will only end badly for you. That is the only point I made.
Powdder CL0CKW0RK 0RANGE	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:06:00 - [27] don't kid yourself. while the method used to kill this ship is perfectly within game rules and mechanics its still a wimpy way to go. To somehow make this out to be D2's fault is low, very very low. Right in line to BoB's way of thinking. I hope like hell the rest of the eve community continues to ostracize BoB's actions and and I hope to see yet MORE of the community stand against BoB due to the underhanded way they are playing this game. Pow
V0rador Amarr Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:06:00 - [28] if i burn a candle and pray to chuck norris god , i wonder if my ship stay online or not humm. Tick Tock Tick Tock
Fabian Amrhein ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Nooey Disclaimer 1: This thread is not intended as flamebait. I personally have nothing but respect for D2. They certainly have members who act like clowns, that much is true. Every alliance does however, so why hold the actions of a few against them? Their leadership has proven to be relatively respectful and disciplined. I am not here to flame the alliance or any of itÆs members. I mean no disrespect by sharing my opinions of what constitutes the plain facts surrounding the Erebus loss. This thread is meant to be a constructive and non-flamed discussion of what the facts of the matter are. Furthermore, this stuff is intended as something of a ôguideö for the Titan pilots out there. I am by no means an expert in this matter, so refer to Disclaimer 2. Disclaimer 2: IÆm not close-minded. IÆm open to the possibility that something I state here isnÆt factually correct, or that IÆve missed something. IÆm largely going off the top of my head here and just thinking logically. I encourage anyone who sees an error or oversight to point it out and correct it. Preferably in a non-flamey way. Disclaimer 3: I realise thereÆs already a stupid amount of threads about the Erebus loss, but I feel that the facts of the matter, and the arguments against/for the legitimacy of the kill are scattered between them all and not clearly stated in one, easily-accessible post/s. The point of this thread is to condense them into the one thing. Disclaimer 4: IÆm certainly not a neutral party in this conflict. Some of you might want to immediately label me as a fanboi/pet/blind devotee of BoB simply because I have a stake in this conflict. ThatÆs fine, but the facts I say here speak for themselves. If you want to argue something here, argue the facts, not my allegiance. If you think my allegiance has clouded my judgment, then I strongly suggest you provide a good reasoning behind why you hold this view, and furthermore, that you specifically address where my judgment has apparently failed me and provide proof as to why/where it has. First and foremost, these are the simple and unarguable facts of the matter surrounding the loss itself. -There was a spy inside D2 -That spy was somehow made aware that the Titan was logging off, or, was incredibly on the ball and was able to realise that it was about to log off. -The Titan logged off outside of the POS shield, allowing it to be aggressed as it logged. It was aggressed with a smartbomb. There was no passive targeting involved. -The Titan logged off whilst aggressed, and did not realise this fact in sufficient time to react. -Band of Brothers capitalized on the above facts ruthlessly, and mobilized an Anti-Titan fleet on the scene in under 5 minutes. Whilst it was opportunism on their behalf, it was no accident. -Band of Brothers acted in an extremely underhanded fashion, and yet, entirely within acceptable gameplay rules. They did not cheat to kill this Titan. They did not exploit to kill this Titan. It was a legitimate kill. This picture provides proof of the mechanical facts listed above (Outside POS, No passive targeter, Titan was aggressed). http://shadowforce.wiredhub.net/bob/2007.02.16.17.58.48.jpg Continued...give me a few moments to get next posts up plz. oh man : ) why you dont post with your BOB main ? i hate this bobalt posts ... ; )
Laura Baretta Minmatar Caelestis Caedes	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:10:00 - [30] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Laura Baretta Edited by: Laura Baretta on 17/02/2007 16:49:17 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 16:46:32 It doesn't help to make a new 9037803783 page topic about the D2 titan loss as long the titan pilot didn't know at all that BoC had did something to his ship so it didn't disapear as it should when there is no enemy agression. How many ******* times do we have to say that the agression timer was not meant to be used in this way, it was meant to avoid peoples to log WHILE they are in fight. I have sayed this like 100000 billion times today, and you still don't get it Yeah i may whine a lot in your eyes, but i have a reason for it though. I can guarantee that alot of peoples will quit EVE over that if that doesn't get fixed soon, because it's going to happen soon again if it's not fixed. Ships in EvE were never meant to be superfast, especially BS and Nanophoons. Still, I see a ton of Nanophoon and other Nano BS flying around. Do you see where your logic is flawed? PS.: This doesnt have to happen again soon if Titan Pilots read this post and live by it. Is my Fiat Punto fast? no Can i make it super fast? yes And the nano bs ships doesn't have a frack ting with this titan thing to do anyways. OK so you didn't get hat I was trying to tell you. You say: Friendly Fire shouldnt add an aggro timer. fact: Friendly Fire adds an aggro timer. It is in game so it is legit. I say: Nano BS shouldn't go so fast, they are imbalancing and not how CCP envisioned BS warfare. fact: Nano BS are fast and in game, in perfectly legit manner. They are currently the flavor of the month also and used (abused?) by alot of pilots. Legit. Its legit, until CCP decides to nerf it. Your argumentation "Friendly Fire shouldn't add aggro timer" is totally useless, and that wont change, no matter how often you tell people trying to explain this to you that THEY don't get your warped logic. Just give up on your little crusade, get in your capsule and shoot bob :)

Edde Bebbi Amarr The Griffin	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:10:00 - [31] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 16:46:32 It doesn't help to make a new 9037803783 page topic about the D2 titan loss as long the titan pilot didn't know at all that BoC had did something to his ship so it didn't disapear as it should when there is no enemy agression. How many ******* times do we have to say that the agression timer was not meant to be used in this way, it was meant to avoid peoples to log WHILE they are in fight. I have sayed this like 100000 billion times today, and you still don't get it Yeah i may whine a lot in your eyes, but i have a reason for it though. I can guarantee that alot of peoples will quit EVE over that if that doesn't get fixed soon, because it's going to happen soon again if it's not fixed. simply solution and its even coded into the game. Turn combatmessages ON. A popup box will report any damage and if you click "log" in your menue it will display damage done to your ship after you entered the current system. Simple but effective. Aggressing the titan in this case is like aggressing a freighter before he manages to log to save his her ship. You can claim all you want that this feature is not "working as intended" sadly it wont change the outcome. That he choose to ignore all safty features is his thing and he has to take the blame for it. Especially if you fly the most exspensive ship of your whole alliance... Nope it's not, when a freighter try to log off while he's still cloaked at the gate, then he KNOWS that he is going to be attacked, and therefor try to log off to save his ship. The thing with the titan is something totally different, because he logged off while he was sure he was safe and no enemier around him then. And the titan pilot had to log because of rl stuffs, and not because he knows he was about to get attacked. The titan pilot being an idiot doesnt suddenly make it an exploit. At the end of the day, if this was a goonswarm or RA kill on an LV titan, Everyone, and by that I mean 99% of you flamers, would be saying "good job, nice move" Why were there no crys of OMG LAME when they brought 1000 to LVs titan in production, used the first 200 to crash the node and the rest to hold the system while the defenders tried to log on. Why were there no crys of 'lame' from you guys when D2 were caught using an official website to get BoB IPs? Why didnt you cry 'lame' when an ISS director offlined an entire systems worth of towers for goonswarm? How is THAT intended by the game mechanics? Why wernt you crying lame about the recent hacking on so many different servers? I'll tell you why; because when its done to BoB and allies it is considered genious, when its done by them its considered lame. Thats all there is to it. You Hate BoB.
Ascend Alt eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:12:00 - [32] First - the bob fanboism of exuro mortis knows no bounds Second - you have WAY too much time on your hands.
Powdder CL0CKW0RK 0RANGE	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:13:00 - [33] Originally by: Edde Bebbi At the end of the day, if this was a goonswarm or RA kill on an LV titan, Everyone, and by that I mean 99% of you flamers, would be saying "good job, nice move" Why were there no crys of OMG LAME when they brought 1000 to LVs titan in production, used the first 200 to crash the node and the rest to hold the system while the defenders tried to log on. Why were there no crys of 'lame' from you guys when D2 were caught using an official website to get BoB IPs? Why didnt you cry 'lame' when an ISS director offlined an entire systems worth of towers for goonswarm? How is THAT intended by the game mechanics? Why wernt you crying lame about the recent hacking on so many different servers? I'll tell you why; because when its done to BoB and allies it is considered genious, when its done by them its considered lame. Thats all there is to it. You Hate BoB. seeing as RAGoons are fighting Lv/BoB most of the eve community is giving RAGoons a nod to fight the best way they can. While LV/BoB wont get that nod because they have been fighting with such underhanded tactics for soooo long (YEARS). The bottom line is this; BoB and LV deserve to be kicked to empire space for their actions past present and future. Don't believe me? Then ask yourself this; WHY DOES THE EVE COMMUNITY HATE THEM SO MUCH? is it because they smell funny?? I hardly think so. ALL I can hope for is the rest of the community continues to stand agiant them. Pow
Shin Ra BURN EDEN GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:13:00 - [34] Would it be so difficult to make a visible time that lets you know when its safe to log off. With so many weird and wonderful things that can agress you, often without you knowing (passive targeters or friendly ship failing an ecm on you maybe?), i can't see it being that difficult to make a timer like that.
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:14:00 - [35] Originally by: Laura Baretta It is in game so it is legit. Even when it's ingame it doesn't mean that it's supposed to be used like some peoples are understanding it to work. Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Atreus Minmatarius Fatalix Inc. Schism.	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:14:00 - [36] how hard it is to put agression timer?? and yeah of course you can blame somebody else when a problem so easyly fixed remains a problem
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:17:00 - [37] Originally by: Powdder don't kid yourself. To somehow make this out to be D2's fault is low, very very low. How is it not D2's fault? Care to explain? If a nubcake nobody like me can figure out how to keep a Titan safe, why couldn't an alliance of thousands? Sure hindsight is 20/20 and I never thought of this on my own until post-event. Are you telling me that it's acceptable than an alliance their size didn't braintstorm for every possible way to lose it? Are you saying it's BoB's fault for doing what Eve has always been about? Are you saying it's CCP's fault for implementing game mechanics almost a year ago that were subsequently ignored/overlooked by D2? Quote: Right in line to BoB's way of thinking. And CCP's. (And I can just imagine how some people will latch on to that one, don't even bother, tbh) Quote: I hope like hell the rest of the eve community continues to ostracize BoB's actions and and I hope to see yet MORE of the community stand against BoB due to the underhanded way they are playing this game. Pow Hey guess what, so does Molle by all accounts. Remember his words? "More, bring MORE". You act like they're frightened of consequence. They welcome it with open arms. If the entire universe gets up in arms about this sort of thing, great. That's a good thing, that's action and consequence. That's what seperates Eve from countless other games, it's the players taking actions, not the GM's (again, don't bother latching on to that, seriously). Do you honestly think that if they cared so much about that, they'd have ever sanctioned an act like this?
sakana Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:17:00 - [38] i read the first disclaimer and got bored when i saw how many posts it went on for.... ------------
Edde Bebbi Amarr The Griffin	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:19:00 - [39] Originally by: Shin Ra Would it be so difficult to make a visible time that lets you know when its safe to log off. With so many weird and wonderful things that can agress you, often without you knowing (passive targeters or friendly ship failing an ecm on you maybe?), i can't see it being that difficult to make a timer like that. Yeo good idea. Doesnt make the loss an exploit though now does it
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:24:00 - [40] Originally by: Nooey Talk about how the game should be all you like guys. It's a good discussion to have by all means. The point remains however. If you do not embrace the current reality of how things are, you will lose a Titan and have nobody to blame but yourself. It is not CCP's fault you refused to act according to the current reality of game mechanics. Acting according to your perception of how the game should be will only end badly for you. That is the only point I made. Bright one, why do you think this war is going on? Because only BoB/LV/FiX/MC are happy with the current reality, everybody elses doesn't. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])

Edde Bebbi Amarr The Griffin	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:27:00 - [41] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: Nooey Talk about how the game should be all you like guys. It's a good discussion to have by all means. The point remains however. If you do not embrace the current reality of how things are, you will lose a Titan and have nobody to blame but yourself. It is not CCP's fault you refused to act according to the current reality of game mechanics. Acting according to your perception of how the game should be will only end badly for you. That is the only point I made. Bright one, why do you think this war is going on? Because only BoB/LV/FiX/MC are happy with the current reality, everybody elses doesn't. No its because of the bull**** and lies that keeps getting posted here and believed. Go read the top 20 threads. Notice how anything said in the OPs is automatically taken as fact. For example DICE losing a titan or BoB using Passive targetting exploits to kill D2s titan People on here are idiots, and sheep. They will believe ANYTHING that reflects badly on BoB and allies. This has nothing to do with the actions of Bob etc, this is just ignorant, biased people and their petty little conspiricy theories.
Ascend Alt eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:30:00 - [42] Originally by: Nooey How is it not D2's fault? Care to explain? If a nubcake nobody like me can figure out how to keep a Titan safe, why couldn't an alliance of thousands? Sure hindsight is 20/20 and I never thought of this on my own until post-event. LMAO, way to answer your own question
Atreus Minmatarius Fatalix Inc. Schism.	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:31:00 - [43] Edited by: Atreus Minmatarius on 17/02/2007 17:29:25 Originally by: Audri Fisher People on here are idiots, and sheep. They will believe ANYTHING that reflects badly on BoB and allies. This has nothing to do with the actions of Bob etc, this is just ignorant, biased people and their petty little conspiricy theories. Oh... you mean that thing that CCP admited to?
Korthan Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:32:00 - [44] I honestly find all this "Bob haxploits with Dev/ISD/blah blah blah powers" hilarious when the simple fact of the matter is that D2 lost their Titan to BOB; i don't see how much more complicated it can get unless I'm just that dumb or blind.
Mextor Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:34:00 - [45] Originally by: Fabian Amrhein Originally by: Nooey stuff oh man : ) why you dont post with your BOB main ? i hate this bobalt posts ... ; ) First, None of us in Exuro Mortis are BoB alts Originally by: joshua cane exuro mortis is know in all universe = bob alt corp Second, was BoB helping us kick your ass all over Curse a few months back when we moved out there for a bit. Full Stats
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:41:00 - [46] Originally by: Ascend Alt LMAO, way to answer your own question How does the fact that I'm one person, not tasked with the responsibility of keeping a Titan safe, and hence didn't think about these things prior to their happening, in any answer that question? Of course I only thought of it post-event, what do you expect? Why would I sit here brainstorming ways to keep a Titan safe when... I don't own a Titan. I'm not responsible for anyone who does. (If you make the awfully dangerous assumption of course, that I'm not a BoB alt) What exactly are you trying to say here? Do you realise that your reply actually implies an admittance on your behalf that D2 only realised these facts in hindsight?
Boliknar The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:41:00 - [47] Edited by: Boliknar on 17/02/2007 17:38:32 Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Laura Baretta It is in game so it is legit. To add to this so ANYTHING in game is legit. So its legit to logoff then logon another toon on the same account so your ship disappears even agressed hell its not an exploit its ingame right. Its ok to find a broken complex and farm it so stfu about what to think RA did because it was in game right? Next time think before ya post something so silly.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:42:00 - [48] Originally by: Nooey Think about Istvaan ShogaatsuÆs heist for one. That is an epic story, truly amazing. Actually, it was largely Digitalcommunist's heist as far as planning and mechanics were concerned. Now you've got the same person chiefly responsible for that whole shebang pretty much playing bob's spymaster. As detailed by kugutsumen, digitalcommunist was in charge of a plan to infiltrate d2 with a group of purchased alts, which wouldn't be a first for him either. the lot of it is sort of amusing if you think about it.
Breed Love FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:43:00 - [49] The game mechanics aren't broken. What is broken is alliances who give titans/moms to people with most sp/isk instead of actual skills. Oh and these forums are so broken too . ----- Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker At this time I am more disgusted by the player base then with the dev to be honest! QFT!!
Mss Alt Gallente The Alt Foundation	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:56:00 - [50] Maybe there are still people that consider EVE only a game as it should be considered. Spend lots of time to ensure that nobody uses crappy game mechanics to kill my ship totally sucks. And people who use crappy game mechanics are LAME. Doesn't matter if they are RA/GOON/D2/BOB etc.

BossNova Guiding Star Industries	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:59:00 - [51] What a bunch of sad, lonesome bandwagoning whiners. I like how none of them bother to respond to logical arguments and keep saying the most retarded stuff. For example, respond to the nanophoon argument, paraphrased thusly: Agression timer is being used in a different way from that of CCP's intention. Haxploit. Thus, Nanophoons being used in a different way from that of CCP's intention is also a haxploit. If you also believe that D2 should get their titan back, you should believe anyone who's lost his ship to a nanophoon should get his ship back. Now, if you don't respond to this, I will repost my message.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:59:00 - [52] Originally by: NightmareX Nope it's not, when a freighter try to log off while he's still cloaked at the gate, then he KNOWS that he is going to be attacked, and therefor try to log off to save his ship. The thing with the titan is something totally different, because he logged off while he was sure he was safe and no enemier around him then. And the titan pilot had to log because of rl stuffs, and not because he knows he was about to get attacked. So therefor, you are still wrong dude No matter how much you like to ride on that freighter example, There are tools to prevent this from happening, your pilot turned them knowingly OFF. He died. To debat whether its working as intended or if it has a sideeffect is pointless. All shades of logging with aggression were and have been covered months or years before. That the pilot was stupid enough to log without thinking about spies or atleast INSIDE the pos field really tells everything there needs to be told.
other mickey Gallente Galaxy Punks Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:02:00 - [53] Edited by: other mickey on 17/02/2007 18:00:37 People should not need to spend 20+ minutes just making sure they can log off to go and enjoy REAL LIFE. This is just a game. 1. The mechanics should allow one to log off safely when they wish to stop playing the game without spending 20 minutes to do so. 2. Currently, there is such a mechanic. When u log your ship disappears in space. 3. To prevent abuse of this mechanic, another has been introduced so that if u log mid-combat, your ship stays in space for 15 minutes allowing your enemies to probe it and kill it. 4. However, since the only way to log-off a mom/titan is to log in space, you now need to spend 20+ minutes trying to make sure you can log-off safely to go back to the real world without wasting all the time and money spent on enjoying your game. So, where are we? Back to step one 1 guess. Not because the game is flawed, well it is, but only because some players will stop at nothing to win, even if it means abusing game mechanics to do so. But in the end, Bob are just playing the current state of the game. People in Eve log-off to avoid combat. Bob counter this by only fighting players that are logged off. Genius!
Lorn Yeager Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:04:00 - [54] Originally by: Eamz The aggression timer was not implemented to be abused in this way, hence bob exploited the aggression timer to achieve something that was not intended to be possible when the timer was introduced. If it isnt exploiting, i dont know what is. If that is the case, I have a fleet megathron I'd like to get back as well.
Breed Love FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:07:00 - [55] Originally by: other mickey Edited by: other mickey on 17/02/2007 18:00:37 People should not need to spend 20+ minutes just making sure they can log off to go and enjoy REAL LIFE. This is just a game. When you posess something thats taken several months for several hundred or even thousand people to produce it is no longer "just a game". Therefore you must have some responsibility and make some sacrifices, or if you can't, maybe you shouldnt be in that titan? ----- Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker At this time I am more disgusted by the player base then with the dev to be honest! QFT!!
Boliknar The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:08:00 - [56] Originally by: BossNova What a bunch of sad, lonesome bandwagoning whiners. I like how none of them bother to respond to logical arguments and keep saying the most retarded stuff. For example, respond to the nanophoon argument, paraphrased thusly: Agression timer is being used in a different way from that of CCP's intention. Haxploit. Thus, Nanophoons being used in a different way from that of CCP's intention is also a haxploit. If you also believe that D2 should get their titan back, you should believe anyone who's lost his ship to a nanophoon should get his ship back. Now, if you don't respond to this, I will repost my message. Actually Nanophoons are acting just like they (the nanophoons themselves) were designed act. So if you want to try and argue with logic you might just wanna check your arguement first... MmmKay
BossNova Guiding Star Industries	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:08:00 - [57] Originally by: other mickey Edited by: other mickey on 17/02/2007 18:00:37 People should not need to spend 20+ minutes just making sure they can log off to go and enjoy REAL LIFE. This is just a game. 1. The mechanics should allow one to log off safely when they wish to stop playing the game without spending 20 minutes to do so. 2. Currently, there is such a mechanic. When u log your ship disappears in space. 3. To prevent abuse of this mechanic, another has been introduced so that if u log mid-combat, your ship stays in space for 15 minutes allowing your enemies to probe it and kill it. 4. However, since the only way to log-off a mom/titan is to log in space, you now need to spend 20+ minutes trying to make sure you can log-off safely to go back to the real world without wasting all the time and money spent on enjoying your game. So, where are we? Back to step one 1 guess. Not because the game is flawed, well it is, but only because some players will stop at nothing to win, even if it means abusing game mechanics to do so. But in the end, Bob are just playing the current state of the game. People in Eve log-off to avoid combat. Bob counter this by only fighting players that are logged off. Genius! People should be able to prevent the loss of their ships by making them move really fast. 1. There should be mechanics in the game to allow this. 2. Currently, there are such mechanics, including nanofibers, MWDs, and inertial stabilizers. 3. Unfortunately, unsavory types abuse these mechanics and create nanophoons. So, where are we? Some players will stop at nothing to win, even if it means abusing game mechanics to do so.
BossNova Guiding Star Industries	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:14:00 - [58] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 18:08:10 Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: NightmareX Nope it's not, when a freighter try to log off while he's still cloaked at the gate, then he KNOWS that he is going to be attacked, and therefor try to log off to save his ship. The thing with the titan is something totally different, because he logged off while he was sure he was safe and no enemier around him then. And the titan pilot had to log because of rl stuffs, and not because he knows he was about to get attacked. So therefor, you are still wrong dude No matter how much you like to ride on that freighter example, There are tools to prevent this from happening, your pilot turned them knowingly OFF. He died. To debat whether its working as intended or if it has a sideeffect is pointless. All shades of logging with aggression were and have been covered months or years before. That the pilot was stupid enough to log without thinking about spies or atleast INSIDE the pos field really tells everything there needs to be told. Well well, friendly fire is still not an enemy agression. The agression system was not meant to be agressed by friends, but by enemies you are fighting. Even when you have an enemy in your corp, you should not be ablr to start a new aggro in ANY ways. Wrong. Spying and internal backstabbing are part of the game. Sorry I don't have a handy devblog link like I did in the other post re: nanophoons, but I don't think anyone is going to challenge me on this one. It would follow that CCP intends for friendly fire to agress someone.
Boliknar The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:14:00 - [59] Originally by: BossNova Originally by: Boliknar Originally by: BossNova What a bunch of sad, lonesome bandwagoning whiners. I like how none of them bother to respond to logical arguments and keep saying the most retarded stuff. For example, respond to the nanophoon argument, paraphrased thusly: Agression timer is being used in a different way from that of CCP's intention. Haxploit. Thus, Nanophoons being used in a different way from that of CCP's intention is also a haxploit. If you also believe that D2 should get their titan back, you should believe anyone who's lost his ship to a nanophoon should get his ship back. Now, if you don't respond to this, I will repost my message. Actually Nanophoons are acting just like they (the nanophoons themselves) were designed act. So if you want to try and argue with logic you might just wanna check your arguement first... MmmKay http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=427 ^ We call that "boned" where I come from. Read your initial arguement you stated that "NANOPHOONS" were not being used by CCPs intentions. 1) CCP never deisgned a Nanophoon its a combination of different mods. so not designed specificaly as a ship. 2) If you leave out the first part that CCP never actually designed the nanophoon and instead focue that is was a player made developement then it is acting exactly like "IT " was designed to do. Get it now?
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:15:00 - [60] Originally by: BossNova Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 18:08:10 Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: NightmareX Nope it's not, when a freighter try to log off while he's still cloaked at the gate, then he KNOWS that he is going to be attacked, and therefor try to log off to save his ship. The thing with the titan is something totally different, because he logged off while he was sure he was safe and no enemier around him then. And the titan pilot had to log because of rl stuffs, and not because he knows he was about to get attacked. So therefor, you are still wrong dude No matter how much you like to ride on that freighter example, There are tools to prevent this from happening, your pilot turned them knowingly OFF. He died. To debat whether its working as intended or if it has a sideeffect is pointless. All shades of logging with aggression were and have been covered months or years before. That the pilot was stupid enough to log without thinking about spies or atleast INSIDE the pos field really tells everything there needs to be told. Well well, friendly fire is still not an enemy agression. The agression system was not meant to be agressed by friends, but by enemies you are fighting. Even when you have an enemy in your corp, you should not be ablr to start a new aggro in ANY ways. Wrong. Spying and internal backstabbing are part of the game. Sorry I don't have a handy devblog link like I did in the other post re: nanophoons, but I don't think anyone is going to challenge me on this one. It would follow that CCP intends for friendly fire to agress someone. Yeah the spying stuff and that are when peoples are online, this is about a player who logged off with an aggro that he shouldn't have had at all. Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred

Boliknar The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:17:00 - [61] Originally by: Zalt O I can fully endorse what Nooey is saying. He's right, D2's Titan loss is their own fault. Everyone always claims BOB uses underhanded tactics all the time... well, PLAN FOR IT if you believe it so. -Stop flaming his thread- And post with yer main fanboi or get owned wait you wont only unidentified anti-bob alts get snipped...sorry I forgot.
Atreus Minmatarius Fatalix Inc. Schism.	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:18:00 - [62] Originally by: BossNova So, where are we? Some players will stop at nothing to win, even if it means abusing game mechanics to do so. fair enough... question: Should those ppl (who are found to ABUSE game mechanics) be punished in any way?
BossNova Guiding Star Industries	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:18:00 - [63] Originally by: Boliknar Originally by: BossNova Originally by: Boliknar Originally by: BossNova What a bunch of sad, lonesome bandwagoning whiners. I like how none of them bother to respond to logical arguments and keep saying the most retarded stuff. For example, respond to the nanophoon argument, paraphrased thusly: Agression timer is being used in a different way from that of CCP's intention. Haxploit. Thus, Nanophoons being used in a different way from that of CCP's intention is also a haxploit. If you also believe that D2 should get their titan back, you should believe anyone who's lost his ship to a nanophoon should get his ship back. Now, if you don't respond to this, I will repost my message. Actually Nanophoons are acting just like they (the nanophoons themselves) were designed act. So if you want to try and argue with logic you might just wanna check your arguement first... MmmKay http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=427 ^ We call that "boned" where I come from. Read your initial arguement you stated that "NANOPHOONS" were not being used by CCPs intentions. 1) CCP never deisgned a Nanophoon its a combination of different mods. so not designed specificaly as a ship. 2) If you leave out the first part that CCP never actually designed the nanophoon and instead focue that is was a player made developement then it is acting exactly like "IT " was designed to do. Get it now? 1) CCP never designed the strategy BOB used to kill the titan. It was a combination of different tactics. So not designed specifically as a ship OR as strategy. 2. If you leave out the first part that CCP never actually planned out the whole strategy and instead focus that it was a play made development, then it is acting exactly like "IT" was designed to do. Get it now? (Really, you should stop now. I can't believe you just tried to argue that nanophoons aren't an abuse of game mechanics because *CCP didn't physically build Typhoons with nanofibers, inertial stabilizers, and MWD already installed*. It's like you're arguing FOR me!)
BossNova Guiding Star Industries	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:19:00 - [64] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: BossNova Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 18:08:10 Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: NightmareX Nope it's not, when a freighter try to log off while he's still cloaked at the gate, then he KNOWS that he is going to be attacked, and therefor try to log off to save his ship. The thing with the titan is something totally different, because he logged off while he was sure he was safe and no enemier around him then. And the titan pilot had to log because of rl stuffs, and not because he knows he was about to get attacked. So therefor, you are still wrong dude No matter how much you like to ride on that freighter example, There are tools to prevent this from happening, your pilot turned them knowingly OFF. He died. To debat whether its working as intended or if it has a sideeffect is pointless. All shades of logging with aggression were and have been covered months or years before. That the pilot was stupid enough to log without thinking about spies or atleast INSIDE the pos field really tells everything there needs to be told. Well well, friendly fire is still not an enemy agression. The agression system was not meant to be agressed by friends, but by enemies you are fighting. Even when you have an enemy in your corp, you should not be ablr to start a new aggro in ANY ways. Wrong. Spying and internal backstabbing are part of the game. Sorry I don't have a handy devblog link like I did in the other post re: nanophoons, but I don't think anyone is going to challenge me on this one. It would follow that CCP intends for friendly fire to agress someone. Yeah the spying stuff and that are when peoples are online, this is about a player who logged off with an aggro that he shouldn't have had at all. But the aggro was achieved while he was ONLINE.
Righteous Fury Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:20:00 - [65] Originally by: NightmareX Well well, friendly fire is still not an enemy agression. The agression system was not meant to be agressed by friends, but by enemies you are fighting. Even when you have an enemy in your corp, you should not be able to start a new aggro in ANY ways from a corp / alliance member. Would you STOP crying about this already? If friends and allies werent meant to give you aggression flags, that "feature" of the pvp timer system would have never been implemented in the first place or would have been removed in short order. The game has been this way for over a year, if you haven't gotten used to it now then its your own fault. If you don't like it, crying exploit isnt the solution. Go write yourself an intelligently worded post in the New Ideas/Features forum and see about getting it changed. Until then, knock it off.
Klaus Stoertebeker Riders of Rohan	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:25:00 - [66] Edited by: Klaus Stoertebeker on 17/02/2007 18:22:18 Originally by: Laura Baretta You say: Friendly Fire shouldnt add an aggro timer. fact: Friendly Fire adds an aggro timer. It is in game so it is legit. bull**....so if I find a bug and abuse it its ok, because its in the game so its legit? honestly: idio...argh, I didnt want to swear on the forums... Originally by:** Laura Baretta Your argumentation "Friendly Fire shouldn't add aggro timer" is totally useless, and that wont change, no matter how often you tell people trying to explain this to you that THEY don't get your warped logic. because it doesnt fit with your point of view? who are you to decide whats useless and whats not? well, you reached status "ignorant idi(grr...nearly did it...)" now ;)
Eamz Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:27:00 - [67] what i dont understand is how bobs exploiting is any different from say zombie attacking yulai. What they did was within the game mechanics, they didnt break any rules, but they were all banned.
Diego Cali Caldari The Roots	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:27:00 - [68] Originally by: Righteous Fury Originally by: NightmareX Well well, friendly fire is still not an enemy agression. The agression system was not meant to be agressed by friends, but by enemies you are fighting. Even when you have an enemy in your corp, you should not be able to start a new aggro in ANY ways from a corp / alliance member. Would you STOP crying about this already? If friends and allies werent meant to give you aggression flags, that "feature" of the pvp timer system would have never been implemented in the first place or would have been removed in short order. The game has been this way for over a year, if you haven't gotten used to it now then its your own fault. If you don't like it, crying exploit isnt the solution. Go write yourself an intelligently worded post in the New Ideas/Features forum and see about getting it changed. Until then, knock it off. The reason friendlies can also start the agression timer is due to shield/energy/armor transferring. If friendlies were able to do so without causing agression, we'd get loads of weird situations. ------ Touring the universe, one planet at a time!
BossNova Guiding Star Industries	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:29:00 - [69] Originally by: Klaus Stoertebeker Edited by: Klaus Stoertebeker on 17/02/2007 18:22:18 Originally by: Laura Baretta You say: Friendly Fire shouldnt add an aggro timer. fact: Friendly Fire adds an aggro timer. It is in game so it is legit. bull**....so if I find a bug and abuse it its ok, because its in the game so its legit? honestly: idio...argh, I didnt want to swear on the forums... FF is not a bug. It is an intended game feature. This is different from abusing actual programming oversights, like for example shooting wrecks. Originally by:** Klaus Stoertebeker Originally by: Laura Baretta Your argumentation "Friendly Fire shouldn't add aggro timer" is totally useless, and that wont change, no matter how often you tell people trying to explain this to you that THEY don't get your warped logic. because it doesnt fit with your point of view? who are you to decide whats useless and whats not? well, you reached status "ignorant idi(grr...nearly did it...)" now ;) No, because it doesn't fit with CCP's point of view. Take it up with them on the Ideas forum. Have a nice day.
Leon 026 Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:30:00 - [70] This is perhaps one of the most intelligent posts/threads in CAOD yet. Seriously people, a Titan is a strategic weapon, you dont leave nukes lying around - you're excessively paranoid about them and make sure that every action has a contingency plan should things go wrong. ------- Leon 026 Once I was fallen, now I have wings

Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:30:00 - [71] Originally by: NightmareX ...this is about a player who logged off with an aggro that he shouldn't have had at all. Hey look! We agree on something.
Ctharth M'8'S	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:32:00 - [72] Originally by: Eamz what i dont understand is how bobs exploiting is any different from say zombie attacking yulai. What they did was within the game mechanics, they didnt break any rules, but they were all banned. Bob didnt pr. definition exploit. There where no defined mechanichs or statements to disallow what they did. you could argue that trying to get around concord was trying to get around game mechanics and therefore doing something that the game was not intended to. Concord is for sure a defined mechanic to protect high sec. to a certain degree.
Dschingis Kahn Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:35:00 - [73] Edited by: Dschingis Kahn on 17/02/2007 18:32:14 http://freenet-homepage.de/winchip2/2007.02.16.18.19.49.PNG Ah CCP.....
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:38:00 - [74] Originally by: Dschingis Kahn Picture that offers no explanation of why D2 logged a Titan in front of people, not at a safespot, and not after waiting 20 minutes to ensure it's safety. Compelling counterargument, that.
BossNova Guiding Star Industries	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:46:00 - [75] Originally by: Dschingis Kahn Edited by: Dschingis Kahn on 17/02/2007 18:35:59 Edited by: Dschingis Kahn on 17/02/2007 18:32:14 http://freenet-homepage.de/winchip2/2007.02.16.18.19.49.PNG By chance ther was a admin in system before the titan kill was happen..nice ccp You're a real winner. Keep with the irrelevant character assassination attempts, instead of the points in the argument. It makes you look good.
Emrod Legion Du Lys Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.17 19:37:00 - [76] I hate Bob fanatic....i hate it very much.Its like everybody are wrong and Bob are good, very suck! And CCp close their eyes for a lots of thing....yeah i begin, me and a lots of people think that my eve account can be close once and for all...its sad because i love this game but now when you know you can win in a normal way or loose in a honor way...why continued to figth anyways? You want to win Eve Bob...hahha ok! You gonna soon play alone on it :p Welcome in Bob online
DeckardIRL Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 19:55:00 - [77] First class post. The fact the D2 did a Cyvok beggars belief... not that I am complaining Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
DeckardIRL Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 19:55:00 - [78] First class post. The fact the D2 did a Cyvok beggars belief... not that I am complaining Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
Ascend Alt eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.17 19:57:00 - [79] Originally by: Nooey Originally by: Ascend Alt LMAO, way to answer your own question How does the fact that I'm one person, not tasked with the responsibility of keeping a Titan safe, and hence didn't think about these things prior to their happening, in any answer that question? Of course I only thought of it post-event, what do you expect? Why would I sit here brainstorming ways to keep a Titan safe when... I don't own a Titan. I'm not responsible for anyone who does. (If you make the awfully dangerous assumption of course, that I'm not a BoB alt) What exactly are you trying to say here? Do you realise that your reply actually implies an admittance on your behalf that D2 only realised these facts in hindsight? Your statement was effectively, I never thought of this but now that it has happened it was entirely obvious that something like this would happen so why didnt D2 think of this in advance, even though I have just admitted its not something that would even cross your mind. Its almost as funny as your Exuro Mortis are not bob fanbois comments.
Ascend Alt eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.17 19:57:00 - [80] Originally by: Nooey Originally by: Ascend Alt LMAO, way to answer your own question How does the fact that I'm one person, not tasked with the responsibility of keeping a Titan safe, and hence didn't think about these things prior to their happening, in any answer that question? Of course I only thought of it post-event, what do you expect? Why would I sit here brainstorming ways to keep a Titan safe when... I don't own a Titan. I'm not responsible for anyone who does. (If you make the awfully dangerous assumption of course, that I'm not a BoB alt) What exactly are you trying to say here? Do you realise that your reply actually implies an admittance on your behalf that D2 only realised these facts in hindsight? Your statement was effectively, I never thought of this but now that it has happened it was entirely obvious that something like this would happen so why didnt D2 think of this in advance, even though I have just admitted its not something that would even cross your mind. Its almost as funny as your Exuro Mortis are not bob fanbois comments.

Ascend Alt eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:01:00 - [81] Originally by: Leon 026 This is perhaps one of the most intelligent posts/threads in CAOD yet. Seriously people, a Titan is a strategic weapon, you dont leave nukes lying around - you're excessively paranoid about them and make sure that every action has a contingency plan should things go wrong. No mate, its a game, a game that people with real lives play, you cannot equate a ship in an imaginery space game to a thermonuclear weapon m'kay. If I was guarding a nuclear weapon it probably would not be acceptable for me to walk away from my post when my mum/gf/bf/partner calls me downstairs for my tea. The same does not apply to a computer game. Is it not reasonable to expect there to be a tool which allows me to do that safely without having to worry about people sploiting dodgy game mechanics?
Eamz Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:05:00 - [82] Originally by: Ctharth Originally by: Eamz what i dont understand is how bobs exploiting is any different from say zombie attacking yulai. What they did was within the game mechanics, they didnt break any rules, but they were all banned. Bob didnt pr. definition exploit. There where no defined mechanichs or statements to disallow what they did. you could argue that trying to get around concord was trying to get around game mechanics and therefore doing something that the game was not intended to. Concord is for sure a defined mechanic to protect high sec. to a certain degree. Neither was there any statement saying you cant fire in 1.0 and therefore fight concord. But they still got banned. You know in your heart CCP did not introduce the aggro timer to allow something like this to happen. It is completely unrealistic and is an exploit. And to all those asking for their own ships back, i actually think this SHOULD be treated differently seeing as it is actually quite an important ship, one that warrents its own landmark after it dies.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:09:00 - [83] Originally by: Ascend Alt Your statement was effectively, I never thought of this ( and why would I? Since I'm no Titan pilot or responsible for any Titan pilots) but now that it has happened it was entirely obvious that something like this would happen (to me) so why didnt D2 think of this in advance considering there's what, a few thousand of them, and they DID have the responsibility of keeping the Titan alive, unlike me. Even though I have just admitted its not something that would even cross my mind, it's definetly something that should have crossed theirs Close...but not quite. Bolded parts added so you get the point. Quote: Its almost as funny as your Exuro Mortis are not bob fanbois comments. Yes...yes...fanboi/bobalt/chimpanzee/master chef/britney spears left breast... Try using logic.
karumba	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:10:00 - [84] using spies is lame. if you had defeated the titan in full glory, no contest hats off. If you need a spie for it? Low, lousy and just lame. Sure, legit kill. Can BoB be proud? Well you could have been a lot prouder if you did not use spies so actively.
Dromololla	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:11:00 - [85] MOST SAFE WAY TO LOG TITAN: whatever you got aggresion or not - log, but asap login your alt at SAME account as your titan pilot. Your titan will simply dissapear at that point.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:14:00 - [86] Signature quote removed - It was too much for my little virgin eyes. Jacques([email protected])
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:16:00 - [87] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 17/02/2007 20:13:14 The ppl now crying about friendly aggro never start the tune when they profit from a freighter beeing aggroed by its web frig, 2 corpm8npcers duking it out with their leetsetups infront of a station and getting caught by hostiles or if ppl get aggro from a 1o1 with a hostile while sharing a gang. However in this single situation ofc the system is wrong and needs changing ! The aggro system has been inplace for ages. How you receive aggro and how timers are managed is well documented all over the forums. To cry exploit just because you havent understood the beforementioned explinations or because u simply ignore them doesnt make it a haxploit or something which needs fixing. IF the titan had logged inside the pos Field nothing would have happened. If he had logged at his own deepspace, cloaked, nothing would have happened. If he had logged in his own pos or in his own system just with his own cyno alt (or one of a person he 100% trusts) nothing would have happened. The titanpilot was careless, much liky cryvoc and he paid the ultimate bill. p.s. to all future titan pilots. If i was in your shoes and would logoff i would tell a probe guy who i trust 100% to watch me dissappear or msn / sms me if i dont. This way youre 100% save.
HellSpeed angels of darkness LTD Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:22:00 - [88] Edited by: HellSpeed on 17/02/2007 20:19:10
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:28:00 - [89] Originally by: Torshin if you had the chance to aggro Shrike as he logged would you take it? We wouldn't use a tactic like that in EVE, so he will only die to us whe he IS online. Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Torshin TARDZ Gods of Night and Day	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:29:00 - [90] k i hope the rest of your allaince is as honorable as you and that your word rings true. Offical Tardz Poo-litical Anal-yst

USN CVN72 Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:39:00 - [91] If the passive targeter is proven to lock things inside the POS shields then the D2 pilot has nothing to worry about he will get the titan reimbursed. Why don't u guys test the passive targeter in your own pos to see if it actually allows you to lock something and aggresses them. If it works for you than it definatly shouldnt work in a POS shield. This is a glitch and is reason for reimbursement. As far as bob having spys in D2 high command and in the active gang is cause for huge concern. If i were any alliance i would not use high assets in the beginning of any war with bob i would not tell anyone in your alliance of your military tactics till the very day that you plan on implimenting it to reduce the amount of intel the enemy receives from their spys. I would also change your TS PW every DAY!!! to ensure communication security. Finally, which i have yet to see happen in a alliance war with bob - impliment true diversion fleets announce in communication channels intentions of attacks in various locations at the same time.. This will keep your enemy guessing. Think of Normady Invasion... Remember BOB are Experts at implimenting their tactics on every enemy they face. they have a very organized REAL LIFE STRUCTURE running the BOB Alliance. If you want to play against them you have to become as organized and careful as they are especially when using your prize assets Titans, Motherships and the rest of your capital fleet. Enough Said... USN OUT!!!
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 20:44:00 - [92] Edited by: Nooey on 17/02/2007 20:41:46 Originally by: Ascend Alt Anyone (from whichever side of whatever conflict they are on) devoting the kind of energy and forethought to a game that you suggest (i.e. engaging in lengthy brainstomring sessions to try to figure out every possible angle of attack), really, really needs to get a life. Well, lots of things ingame require a lot of thought, that yes, you're right, require one to take the game very seriously and put a lot of effort into it. I'm in your camp, believe me, I just play to have fun, that's why I'm not in some huge alliance planning cyno nets/large scale logistics/countermeasure tactics for supercapital safety/etc. The scale of the invasion D2 brought about was epic and had to have required a great deal of thought. More thought would have gone into that, than into thinking about ways a Titan can die. Quote: If you want to say that they should do this and that "well that is why bob rule and the rest of eve suck" then be my guest.. I'm not flaming D2, as I said in the OP, I respect them and the way they've carried themselves in the war for the most part. I'm not here to say "lolnooburtehsuxxor" at all. I'm here to point out there it's not CCP's fault, it's not BoB's fault, it's entirely D2's. The loss was completely avoidable, 100%. There were so many ways it could have been avoided, but they were rather astonishingly overlooked. Saying anything else is just innaccurate/making excuses/shirking personal responsibility. My point is that, if an alliance treats their Titan with the "It's a game" attitude, which is fine, then they have nobody to blame for it's loss but themselves if said attitude results in reckless behaviour. Originally by: USN CVN72 If the passive targeter is proven to lock things inside the POS shields then the D2 pilot has nothing to worry about he will get the titan reimbursed. Please, for the love of god, read the original post with the facts. Look at the picture linked. There was no use of passive targeters and the POS was outside the shield.
Troubadour Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 21:16:00 - [93] Originally by: NightmareX I can guarantee that alot of peoples will quit EVE over that if that doesn't get fixed soon, because it's going to happen soon again if it's not fixed. hopefully people like you. seriously. Quit whining just because you are losing.
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 21:25:00 - [94] Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 21:23:07 Originally by: Troubadour Originally by: NightmareX I can guarantee that alot of peoples will quit EVE over that if that doesn't get fixed soon, because it's going to happen soon again if it's not fixed. hopefully people like you. seriously. Quit whining just because you are losing. Hehe wrong And your saying we are loosing, hahahahahahahahahahah, have you seen what we have done to LV so far? And when LV is gone or are in empire to mine veldspar, then it's BoB's turn for that. Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Kanthras	Posted - 2007.02.17 21:27:00 - [95] Originally by: USN CVN72 If the passive targeter is proven to lock things inside the POS shields then the D2 pilot has nothing to worry about he will get the titan reimbursed. The spy didn't use a passive targeter. The Erebus was outside the POS shield and the spy used a micro smartbomb to aggro him. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Nastratu Minmatar Serefon Creatin	Posted - 2007.02.17 22:36:00 - [96] Originally by: NightmareX Nope it's not, when a freighter try to log off while he's still cloaked at the gate, then he KNOWS that he is going to be attacked, and therefor try to log off to save his ship. The thing with the titan is something totally different, because he logged off while he was sure he was safe and no enemier around him then. And the titan pilot had to log because of rl stuffs, and not because he knows he was about to get attacked. So therefor, you are still wrong dude Well this is like war and stuff if you haven't noticed? Which means he could have been attacked any time any place. As OP has said, the alliance should have brainstormed different possibilities of losing their Titan. Believing that there are no enemies around you is naive, because you can be most certain that your alliance has been infiltrated by spies. He made a mistake being so sure that he is safe. Being unaware of danger on victim's part does not make the use of aggro timer some kind of invalid technique to scan him out and gank him. I am very certain there have been numerou cases in the game when people logged off thinking they are in no danger, just like the D2 Titan pilot did, not during combat, and they got probed out and killed. He was at war with an alliance that already ganked a Titan, flying a 150 bil investment. I would not be feeling safe with that anywhere. And logging off thinking that you are safe why you are not does not make use of aggro timer to kill your ship an exploit. If you get killed like this it is because you made a mistake in judgement. Originally by: Fabian Amrhein oh man : ) why you dont post with your BOB main ? i hate this bobalt posts ... ; ) Yes, anybody making sense has to be with BoB. Anyone throwing senseless flames around and lacking logic must be a true D2 member. Is this what you're trying to say? ;)
Third Down Hard Rock Cafe	Posted - 2007.02.18 00:07:00 - [97] Originally by: Nooey 1 a). Do not announce in gang/Teamspeak that you are planning to log out. Only your most trusted of trusted high command should be aware of this, and only moments before you plan on doing so. b). Do not announce it to anybody. 2. Drop from any gang you're in and turn on all damage logs. 3 a) Instantly warp from inside your POS, to your own personal deep safespot you have made in that system. b) Jump to a system where you have a personal deep safe. Preferably use your own Cyno alt to do this. Otherwise, drop instantly from the gang you used to Cyno with. Warp to your personal deep safe from the POS you cynoÆd to. 4. Cloak instantly when you arrive at the safespot. 5. Wait for 20 minutes. 6. Open your log. Ensure that there is absolutely no aggression on you. Whilst it should be impossible for you to have been aggressed whilst cloaked, this step takes all of 5 seconds and should always be done. 7. Double check that 20 minutes have passed.* 8. Open your folder that stores gamelogs. Go to the Program Files>CCP>Eve>Capture and be ready to open to the gamelogs folder. 9. Open a new client of Eve. Enter your username and password but do not log in. 10. Close the currently running client. 11. Open the gamelogs folder, ensure one last time that there is no aggression reported in the gamelogs. 12. If you are clear, close your readied client and go enjoy your Macaroni Cheese/Family Guy/Girlfriend/Day of work without any sleep because youÆve been trying to Doomsday fleets all night/etc Jesus wept; you're the guy who writes our staff HR manuals, aren't you? There's not a chance in hell that CCP intended logging off to be that hard. A train of thought that leads to the word 'petitionable'. /SM
Liet Traep Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.02.18 00:10:00 - [98] Nooey mate hindsight is 20/20. I personally would have logged it off behind the pos shields. But then again I'm not a Titan pilot. I really think a visible aggression timer would be a great thing and i really would like if damage from corp or alliance mates didn't trigger aggo timer. How many people have lost ships because they're bored and firing at each other at a gate camp and then they're aggroed when hostiles come in. (It happens all the time. people get bored at a camp for hours.) D2 could have done things differently and will in the future. But imagine a paradise. An Eve without BoD where such precautions aren't necessary..... (I personally think an Eve without BoD would be filled with puppies and kittens and people singing and ships dancing in formation!) It's a big deal that BoD killed the Erebus but it's also kinda sad. Pathetic even. It should have gone down fighting. instead it went down in a borderline exploit of the aggro timer in a very underhanded fashion. I'm not suprised BoD got accused of cheating the way it went down. It'd be really nice if one these things got lost in a straight up fight. Good post Nooey. Very thoughtful. But maybe this loss is still a little raw. I doubt anything you say will sink in at this time. Oh and when did you become a BoD alt? You're logged in all the time as Nooey. I didn't think you had time to be a sekrit alt of the nefarious BoD?
David H'Levi Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.18 00:13:00 - [99] I think you've just outlined a clear problem. Being a titan pilot sucks. Period. You're time in EVE is no longer your own, it takes you at least half an hour to log out safely, you are at your alliance's beck and call, and you have to fly around in huge fleets clicking a doomsday button for hours upon hours a day. Your method is certainly about as close to foolproof as you can get, and if I ever owned a titan, I'd probably follow it as closely as possible. But the bottom line is that this is extremely difficult, and bad things will occur. Fortune is a fickle mistress, handmaiden of victory, and when you're flying something that large, and that complicated, Fortune will inevitably work against you at some point. Then you'd better hope that your friends and allies are better than your enemies. snip Sig not appropriate. Please email [email protected] linking the sig to find out why -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) I must admit, I like the violet.
Heilongjiang YASA.	Posted - 2007.02.18 00:15:00 - [100] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 17/02/2007 20:45:41 Originally by: Torshin if you had the chance to aggro Shrike as he logged would you take it? We wouldn't use a tactic like that in EVE, so he will only die to us whe he IS online. We just want to make sure that Shrike or any other hostile titan pilots will see their titan go down while they are logged on, nothing is better than that Now that's the way to kill a Titan, Man up and do it properly. ....still waiting expectantly for those 3 sweet words... BoB Titan Down

Shadowfax2121 Gallente Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.02.18 00:21:00 - [101] All aboard the hate train! Hate D2 or BOB! w00t!
Gungankllr Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.18 00:36:00 - [102] Edited by: Gungankllr on 18/02/2007 00:33:08 The bottom line in my opinion is you shouldn't have to complete the twelve labours of Hercules in order to log off if something comes up. I understand that being a Titan Pilot is a tremendous honor and extreme care should be exercised when being trusted to pilot one, but I also believe that there should be some sort of game mechanic that prevents events such as this from occurring. Crafting an elaborate plan in order to kill a ship after it logs off stinks. At what point did Eve become so utterly devoid of any sort of any joy in anything but negative aspects? When we lost our mothership, I was pretty angry, I'll admit. I made a few posts referencing that it was lost due to lag, and for that I appologize to the MC. Lag in fleet battles is normal, and it's not like it wasn't expected. We lost our mothership because MC took some giant brass balls and fired them through our forehead using a cannon. THAT IS HOW SUPERCAPITALS SHOULD DIE, not this "Let's plan around doing everything we can so they can't fight back" strategy. I didn't think it was possible for BoB to fall any lower on my respect chart, but I guess I'll have to paint on some more levels of negative.
Sky lv Chicas Locas Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.18 00:37:00 - [103] Edited by: Sky lv on 18/02/2007 00:42:21 Originally by: Dezra CCP should implement a warning before you close the client, something like "You have been agressed and you ship will not dissapear for the next 15 minutes, do you still want to quit?" At least that way some ahole cant pull a fast one like the one D2 suffered. Eve has taken a turn for the worse, seems like BoB will stoop to the lowest level to kill a ship. I honestly cant see why some are impressed that BoB now has killed 2 Titans, while the pilots have been unable to control it. That should rather make ppl think, that its to much of a coincidence. !!!!! Seriously give us a damn warning that we have to CONFIRM before we log off. Killing 2 titans while offline lol I see why bob is so "great". The first one is questionable but I think legit, this D2 titan was a pure exploit. Why for the reason many of stated OVER AND OVER. The agro timer was NOT meant to be used like this it WAS meant to KEEP lamers from logging off to avoid death, thats it. Not so when someones hasnt been involved in pvp for hours and he closes his client then comes back to a egg, exploiters ftL! But if I was d2 I might take this as a good thing, see people with no fear no resort to this kinda underhanded exploiting game play, they would have wanted to kill it in battle. Personally I think bob knows it needs to do everything and anything possible to win this, unlike any other war they have had in the past.
Man1ac Xenobytes Stain Empire	Posted - 2007.02.18 00:42:00 - [104] Originally by: Laura Baretta ... Its legit, until CCP decides to nerf it. Your argumentation "Friendly Fire shouldn't add aggro timer" is totally useless, and that wont change, no matter how often you tell people trying to explain this to you that THEY don't get your warped logic. Just give up on your little crusade, get in your capsule and shoot bob :) Loads of BS. Carrier cargo bug was "legit until CCP nerfed it"? People got banned because they abused it.
Gabriel Heavenlost	Posted - 2007.02.18 01:08:00 - [105] Well thought out OP. Its just a shame EVE can't be played anymore. Now we have live it. Remember when you could stack damage mods without a percentage penatly? While not being a hack or exploit, the game mechanic that allowed for this was one that detracted from gameplay and as such was fixed. Many many games, digital or not, have 'broken' mechanics that can be easily abused for the benefit of the abuser. This is something BoB seems to excel at. Any veteran gamer will recognize this as Munchinism.
Dirtee Girl Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.18 01:28:00 - [106] wow you know it only takes about 30 seconds to tell the truth bull**** takes longer dont forget to link this in you app
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.18 01:48:00 - [107] Originally by: Nooey OP An extremely strong post, excellent use of logic, you just outclassed 99% of the people on this forum. Almost a shame we're currently on the same side, I would think a debate with you could enjoyably strain the braincells. Blog
Wicke Gallente Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.18 02:34:00 - [108] To be bluntly honest, the OP is 100% correct. I know my Alliance has a group of folks constantly searching and testing the game mechanics to gain a complete understanding of 'threats' to Cap Ships and POS's. Why anyone wouldnt do that is beyond me.
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:14:00 - [109] Bottom line here is, a person should not be afraid to log off or go through 20-25 minutes of procedure to log off. Even if he is flying a titan. Aggression timer is to prevent your opponent from logging off in combat. Period. I know that I would not want to be treated like this by my enemies, and would never intentionally treat anyone so. You can explain your reasonings until blue in the face, but the problem is not in the logic, but in difference of opinions on what is fair gameplay. I dislike people who make winning at whatever cost their ultimate goal.
Paradoxex Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:15:00 - [110] Could D2 have done something else to ensure their titan was no killed in any fashion? Sure. I just hope you feel the same way about the LV-Goon incident. In both cases the aggressing parties took advantage of an aspect of the game mechanics that for whatever reason has been allowed to exist. The fact that CCP has allowed it to exist is precisely why BoB in the first example and Goons in the second were knowledgeable enough to use the respectiv instances of game mechanics to their advantage. That said, it's still a sad state of affairs for the game, and I find your attempt to spin it lacking. I also find your vision for the game one that will cause CCP's universe to fall flat in short order should you be correct. Eve is about space combat. It is meant to simulate what we envision space combat in the future, with a given back story, to be like. That includes massive space fights, epic explosions, and a real sense that combat strategy on a massive scale not only matters. This also includes a sense of real loss and gain, and in doing all this we help shape the universe. We cause change in Eve. Of course, itÆs still a simulation, and so we have to go back to real life for most of the day. So that creates a tension, where people leave the world they shape for periods of the day. Managing this transition is not easy, and this is where many MMOÆs become great or lackluster. The idea is to make it as fair and seamless to everyone involved as is possible. So people expect this game to be as realistic as is possible. Well, the sad fact is, being aggressed as you leave the game solely so that due to a line of code in the gameÆs script you will be susceptible to being killed while not in the gameà.is not realistic. Had the Erebus pilot stayed online, he would have lived undoubtedly. The spy in question exploited a line of code that allowed him to make the game very unrealistic. ItÆs a fallacy in Eve, and itÆs one they need to correct. People pay for the realism in the games they play, and in that they derive fun. When games start seeming like they are less ôrealö and more constrained by peculiar lines of codeàthey stop playing. You assert that if you can perform an action in Eve and it has not been explicitly outlawed, that makes it legal, nay, even correct to do. You also assert that implicitly, CCP encourages this behavior. The facts donÆt support this on either account. Petitions exist in part for the specific appeal of exploited bugs on the server. An accurate definition of a bug is a part of the game that does not function as it is intended, but the developers have not found or implemented a fix to it. Implied in this is that they donÆt agree with its usage, and that is why they have a policy to reimburse players for these losses. Anecdotal evidence has limited usage, but maybe it will help here. I lost a ship last month to an enemy that dropped drones on my outside a station, warped to a pre-made bookmark 200k away, and let his drones continue to attack me. He was using a vexor. If you know ôgame mechanicsö then you know that heÆs exploiting a bug that allows drones to keep attacking even after their owner has left his range of control. I petitioned; CCP reimbursed me. Why? The enemy used a tactic that clearly was in the game. It had clearly not been outlawed. Yet CCP gave me back my ship. Clearly, indisputably, your idea that just because a tactic CAN be used, means it is legal, doesnÆt hold wait. People canÆt petition lag. They can petition broken mechanics. This is arguably, but pretty convincingly, a broken game mechanic. CCP implemented aggro timers to be used to keep people from logging off in the heat of battle without consequence. That isnÆt what happened here. Someone exploited the game mechanic to actually put him in danger as he logged off.

Paradoxex Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:16:00 - [111] As for BoB, they lose a lot more in these exchanges than D2, or anyone else for that matter. Putting aside accusation of developers helping them and what not, they hurt themselves by blowing up titans in this way. Months ago, and for far longer than that, BoB was known as an alliance of formidable might and worthy of dread. People lived under their banner, and those who didnÆt feared them enough to have to acknowledge that they impacted their game play in Eve. They were also seen as fairly honorable. They didnÆt smack in local as much as others, and they generally won because they had high SP characters who knew how to play the game. Actions like the killing of D2Æs titan in the manner that it took place change that perception for many players. BoB is beginning to be seen as a group of players hell-bent on winning the game regardless of the means they have to employ to achieve it. They blow up big ships using exploits that 90% of the community is appalled at, and the other 10% turn their head from. To the best of my knowledge, the majority of BoB didnÆt know about the recent developer-T2 incident until it became public for everyone. For me personally, it was hard to sully their achievements of the entire alliance as a result of one personÆs abuse. This incident is much harder to ignore. Band of Brothers is not just an alliance in the real world. ItÆs a well-known mini-series about a bunch of people who held honor and loyalty as the highest of virtues as they made it through or died in the hardest of times. Many of these individuals died in the name of honor. Why an alliance with such power and noble founding principles would resort to tactics that are perceived as despicable is beyond me, and seemingly contradictory to the name, and thus founding principles of the alliance itself. The end result of these actions is that people will forever challenge the successes of the alliance. It matters much less now who wins this conflict. BoBÆs past and future success is shrouded in dubious actions and questionable tactics. By killing D2Æs titan in this way BoB may be closer to winning this war, but they are far closer to losing the type of legacy many of them no doubt want them to leave behind. At the end of the day, CCP and BoB didnÆt have the last say in whether or not D2Æs Erebus lived. D2 did. You are correct, they didnÆt cover every base. To say it is all their fault is to make presumptions that arenÆt supported by current game policy or explicitly stated by the gameÆs developers. CCP does promote a sinister environment that includes allowances that donÆt exist in other games. It does not promote the explicit exploitation of mechanics to achieve results clearly contrary to their intention. Your argument comes down to one analogy. Say I give you a gun and tell you itÆs only be used to defend yourself. So you shoot me in the head with it, unprovoked. You seem to be arguing that I should have never given you the gun. In real life, some people would agree. What you arenÆt acknowledging, however, is that in real life youÆd also go to jail. And I think you should, as you disobeyed instructions and did something that was clearly not intended or implied. CCP should weigh in on this, but whatÆs likely is that they will continue their policy on avoiding the big game play issues and letting the community sort itself out. Still, they helped create this. BoB likewise exploited the game play in a way that was not intended, and they should be held accountable for that too. And they are, by the community at least. Other than the cheating accusations, nothing wrong is happening here. It would be nice to claim the world is black and white and fault should be assigned to one party...but that simply isn't the reality we face.
Gungankllr Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:24:00 - [112] Edited by: Gungankllr on 18/02/2007 03:20:26 Paradoxe, your post is the most logical, intelligent articulate post I have ever read in three plus years of reading these forums. Now only if somebody that matters would act on it.
Gabriel Heavenlost	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:32:00 - [113] Originally by: Paradoxex As for BoB, they lose a lot more in these exchanges than D2, or anyone else for that matter. Putting aside accusation of developers helping them and what not, they hurt themselves by blowing up titans in this way. ... It would be nice to claim the world is black and white and fault should be assigned to one party...but that simply isn't the reality we face. Quoted for truth.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:33:00 - [114] Edited by: Avernus on 18/02/2007 03:31:36 Originally by: Gungankllr Edited by: Gungankllr on 18/02/2007 03:20:26 Paradoxe, your post is the most logical, intelligent articulate post I have ever read in three plus years of reading these forums. Now only if somebody that matters would act on it. It is a good post, and well argued, except that it falls short in one area; the arguement is that it is foolish to not account for game mechanic possibilities, not an arguement that using the mechanics to your advantage is morally justified. Edit; just to clarify the above, I am referring to the OP's arguement being based on accounting for game mechanics and protecting yourself from it. Blog
Uinein Caldari Constructive Influence	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:37:00 - [115] CCP make the rules if it was an exploit D2 should get their Titan back. D2 should have been more careful. If D2 admitted that it was a fair kill albeit underhanded, why are all of you foaming at the mouth over something that you didn't contribute to at all?
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:40:00 - [116] I'll also argue that Paradoxex misrepresents the OP's arguement as being a justification for how the titan was taken down. To quote the OP: Quote: - Band of Brothers capitalized on the above facts ruthlessly, and mobilized an Anti-Titan fleet on the scene in under 5 minutes. Whilst it was opportunism on their behalf, it was no accident. - Band of Brothers acted in an extremely underhanded fashion, and yet, entirely within acceptable gameplay rules. They did not cheat to kill this Titan. They did not exploit to kill this Titan. It was a legitimate kill. Reading the above language, the OP hasn't justified the usage of mechanics to one's advantage. What he has done is very throughly argued the failings to protect yourself from possible mechanics as a direct failing of the Titan's alliance. Again, Paradoxex's arguement is a fairly made one, but it missed the message that the OP wrote. Blog
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:49:00 - [117] Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/02/2007 03:46:18 After reading your posts Avernus... I would like to ask you a question. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to. Would you have authorised an operation such as the one undertaken by BoB to kill D2's Titan? Would you have let FIX pilots go deep undercover to explicitly take advantage of game mechanics to trigger that aggro timer?
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:55:00 - [118] Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/02/2007 03:46:18 After reading your posts Avernus... I would like to ask you a question. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to. Would you have authorised an operation such as the one undertaken by BoB to kill D2's Titan? Would you have let FIX pilots go deep undercover to explicitly take advantage of game mechanics to trigger that aggro timer? Me personally, no, but that is simply a personal choice, and I tend to hold FIX to my personal choices for better or worse. I also don't expect others to play Eve the way I play it. Before you ask why we would align ourselves to someone that would use mechanics to their advantage, I'll give you the answer (because I imagine that is actually what is on your mind and where this is leading); simply put, mechanics and playstyle are not the only thing by which I judge other people/alliances. The reasons why FIX is friends and allies with BoB are many and well documented. Blog
Allen Deckard Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:56:00 - [119] exactly when was it that it became a big supprise to anyone that bob are exploiters and cheets? Just currious. Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free
sweetheart Black Reign FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.18 04:01:00 - [120] Edited by: sweetheart on 18/02/2007 03:59:50 Ahh crap who cares !! Seems like all anyone wnats to do nowdays is to get 10:1 against someone for the superblob . .............................................. To Win is Everything

Gungankllr Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.18 04:11:00 - [121] Yet another bottom line: Nothing anybody says on these forums are going to change the way BoB is, or the way they play. The only people that matter in the slightest bit in this matter, or any really is the people with the gold bars next to their names. Everyone on these forums could sit for days and make intelligent discourse on the subject, but that isn't going to change anything. The point of this game is that it's very flexible. You can mine one minute, to PVP another, to NPC yet another, the list goes on. With that inherent flexibility comes the possibility for abuse, and without strong, decisive leadership keeping the train on the tracks, you get things like this happen. I'm still dumbfounded that BoB developed a plan to kill the D2 Titan when it was offline. Does't matter how lame I think that is, nor how lame anybody else thinks it is. Going again with bottom lines, they killed the D2 titan. That's all they care about, and that's why this game in general is circling the bowl. I miss the days of a 1 vs. 1, or decent fleet battles. Killmails lessened this game, just as BoB did, and still does.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2007.02.18 04:35:00 - [122] Originally by: Avernus Me personally, no, but that is simply a personal choice, and I tend to hold FIX to my personal choices for better or worse. I also don't expect others to play Eve the way I play it. Before you ask why we would align ourselves to someone that would use mechanics to their advantage, I'll give you the answer (because I imagine that is actually what is on your mind and where this is leading); simply put, mechanics and playstyle are not the only thing by which I judge other people/alliances. The reasons why FIX is friends and allies with BoB are many and well documented. Thankyou for the honest answer. Actually I wanted to know your take on the matter from a personal point of view and there was no ulterior motive to my question, other than to find out whether it would be something you would authorise. For the record; and I have given this substantial thought whilst I waited for you to respond, had I been in a position to authorise such an operation I would have had to weigh up very heavily how badly that Titan needed to die. I would have been very tempted to give the operation the green light if the future of my alliance depended on it and I mean absolutely depended on it. However, in doing so I would realise that taking such a step would be helping to take the game towards a pretty dark place, where fun is no longer the objective. ... and then probably after much deliberation.. would have decided that if thats what it takes to win... I wouldn't want to. Ofc this is all highly subjective....and as far as I can tell no exploits were involved... and thats what matters right? ......
Allen Deckard Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.18 04:40:00 - [123] "However, in doing so I would realise that taking such a step would be helping to take the game towards a pretty dark place, where fun is no longer the objective." Personally I think eve went down this road a long time ago. [waits for new mmo] Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free
Gabriel Heavenlost	Posted - 2007.02.18 04:42:00 - [124] Actualy, the bottom line is money and the most important people are the paying subscribers. Im sure if a large chunk of players cancelled their subs those people with gold bars would take notice. Without us CCP can not pay the bills and Tranquility gets sold to the highest bidder. Look at Asheron's Call 2, Mankind, Shadowbane...the list goes on. When subscribers aren't happy they take their money elsewhere.
Tar Kovsky Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.18 04:42:00 - [125] Scenario A: Ship is at POS for an hour. Gets a call for help. Warps in, is outnumbered, gets bubbled before firing a shot. Scenario B: Ship is at POS for an hour. Pilot announces on TeamSpeak that he's going to log. Spy overhears and manages to damage ship because part of it extends outside the shields. A lot of people seem to think that the pilot in scenario A should get aggro to prevent logging, but that the pilot in scenario B should not. And yet there's not really a whole lot to distinguish them other than intent, which the game can't measure.
USN CVN72 Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.18 04:52:00 - [126] Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/02/2007 03:46:18 After reading your posts Avernus... I would like to ask you a question. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to. Would you have authorised an operation such as the one undertaken by BoB to kill D2's Titan? Would you have let FIX pilots go deep undercover to explicitly take advantage of game mechanics to trigger that aggro timer? Me personally, no, but that is simply a personal choice, and I tend to hold FIX to my personal choices for better or worse. I also don't expect others to play Eve the way I play it. Before you ask why we would align ourselves to someone that would use mechanics to their advantage, I'll give you the answer (because I imagine that is actually what is on your mind and where this is leading); simply put, mechanics and playstyle are not the only thing by which I judge other people/alliances. The reasons why FIX is friends and allies with BoB are many and well documented. you talk to much Avernus... hope your boyz r doing well down south because soon your dead meat
Snodgey2004 Mega Modal M0nkeys	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:06:00 - [127] Originally by: USN CVN72 Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/02/2007 03:46:18 After reading your posts Avernus... I would like to ask you a question. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to. Would you have authorised an operation such as the one undertaken by BoB to kill D2's Titan? Would you have let FIX pilots go deep undercover to explicitly take advantage of game mechanics to trigger that aggro timer? Me personally, no, but that is simply a personal choice, and I tend to hold FIX to my personal choices for better or worse. I also don't expect others to play Eve the way I play it. Before you ask why we would align ourselves to someone that would use mechanics to their advantage, I'll give you the answer (because I imagine that is actually what is on your mind and where this is leading); simply put, mechanics and playstyle are not the only thing by which I judge other people/alliances. The reasons why FIX is friends and allies with BoB are many and well documented. you talk to much Avernus... hope your boyz r doing well down south because soon your dead meat God forbid an official rep of an alliance and a paying subscriber might I add use the forums in such a way eh , and I noticed it was Nez doing the asking , Avernus was obviously answering - is usually polite to answer a question don't you think ?
Paradoxex Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:11:00 - [128] Edited by: Paradoxex on 18/02/2007 05:07:52 Let me reiterate...in no way am I arguing that D2 doesn't share some of the blame. The OP is right in that they should have safe guarded against every way that their titan could have been destroyed. This point is accepted. What I disagree with is that BoB and even CCP are not to be blamed at all. I highly doubt anyone can coherently argue that the aggro timer was introduced so that large ships could be taken down in the manner that the Erebus was. It just wasn't an intended use of that game mechanic. Not to parse words, but that's pretty close to the definition of an in-game exploit. Can you argue that it was an innovative usage of a game play problem that hasn't been fixed? Sure...but I think if we take a step back we realize that when we start relying on game mechanics issues to succeed in a game, we are very close to that game not being fun anymore. Again, people pay for realism, and this sort of game play shatters that illusion for us all. BoB did nothing explicitly illegal, that's true. What they did was shameful though, and totally contrary to the values associated with their name, and contrary to an idea that they fiercely defend: That they are simply better PvP pilots than everyone else in the game. This had nothing to do with equipping or piloting a ship. Nothing. Other people realize this, and are criticizing BoB for it. Again, I can't figure out why there's a problem with this. I know CCP has a set of policies regarding what they can say about specific losses and subjects that may already be under petition. That said, some clarification of what leeway players have in using these gameplay mechanics subversively would be appreciated. It's easy to go on a case-by-case basis when caracals and dominixes are the only ships being blown up. When a titan blows up, however, in a manner as controversial as this, the community takes notice, and as such keeping a quiet lip is starting to do more harm for the integrity of the game then speaking out would. There is blame to go around here, and if you applied the OP's logic to everyday circumstances, you would realize that rarely, if ever, is blame one-sided. That's the ultimate point of the OP, and what I take issue with.
USN CVN72 Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:11:00 - [129] Originally by: Snodgey2004 Originally by: USN CVN72 Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/02/2007 03:46:18 After reading your posts Avernus... I would like to ask you a question. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to. Would you have authorised an operation such as the one undertaken by BoB to kill D2's Titan? Would you have let FIX pilots go deep undercover to explicitly take advantage of game mechanics to trigger that aggro timer? Me personally, no, but that is simply a personal choice, and I tend to hold FIX to my personal choices for better or worse. I also don't expect others to play Eve the way I play it. Before you ask why we would align ourselves to someone that would use mechanics to their advantage, I'll give you the answer (because I imagine that is actually what is on your mind and where this is leading); simply put, mechanics and playstyle are not the only thing by which I judge other people/alliances. The reasons why FIX is friends and allies with BoB are many and well documented. you talk to much Avernus... hope your boyz r doing well down south because soon your dead meat God forbid an official rep of an alliance and a paying subscriber might I add use the forums in such a way eh , and I noticed it was Nez doing the asking , Avernus was obviously answering - is usually polite to answer a question don't you think ? Avernus talks to much. Fix knows what im saying soon they will pay for being aligned with Bob/ After LV fix will be next...
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:18:00 - [130] Edited by: Avernus on 18/02/2007 05:19:58 double post Blog

Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:19:00 - [131] Originally by: Paradoxex Edited by: Paradoxex on 18/02/2007 05:07:52 Let me reiterate...in no way am I arguing that D2 doesn't share some of the blame. The OP is right in that they should have safe guarded against every way that their titan could have been destroyed. This point is accepted. What I disagree with is that BoB and even CCP are not to be blamed at all. I highly doubt anyone can coherently argue that the aggro timer was introduced so that large ships could be taken down in the manner that the Erebus was. It just wasn't an intended use of that game mechanic. Not to parse words, but that's pretty close to the definition of an in-game exploit. Can you argue that it was an innovative usage of a game play problem that hasn't been fixed? Sure...but I think if we take a step back we realize that when we start relying on game mechanics issues to succeed in a game, we are very close to that game not being fun anymore. Again, people pay for realism, and this sort of game play shatters that illusion for us all. BoB did nothing explicitly illegal, that's true. What they did was shameful though, and totally contrary to the values associated with their name, and contrary to an idea that they fiercely defend: That they are simply better PvP pilots than everyone else in the game. This had nothing to do with equipping or piloting a ship. Nothing. Other people realize this, and are criticizing BoB for it. Again, I can't figure out why there's a problem with this. I know CCP has a set of policies regarding what they can say about specific losses and subjects that may already be under petition. That said, some clarification of what leeway players have in using these gameplay mechanics subversively would be appreciated. It's easy to go on a case-by-case basis when caracals and dominixes are the only ships being blown up. When a titan blows up, however, in a manner as controversial as this, the community takes notice, and as such keeping a quiet lip is starting to do more harm for the integrity of the game then speaking out would. There is blame to go around here, and if you applied the OP's logic to everyday circumstances, you would realize that rarely, if ever, is blame one-sided. That's the ultimate point of the OP, and what I take issue with. Here's the thing, the OP hasn't condoned the actions that brought about the death of the Titan. That is the only real sticking point I have. Blog
Maraleith	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:19:00 - [132] I don't see what the issue is myself. This is the game CCP wants. Not one decided by tactics or strategy but through underhanded deceit and deception. So be it. It's why factional warfare will never work. Anything that depends upon in-game tactics and racial ship balance for integrity is doomed to failure when a LONE spy can cause a titan to be lost. Well done BoB on your victory. I call it a pyrrhic victory but you don't see that. In some ways I do hope you do win - then when you see what damage you have done to the integrity of the game you profess to love; maybe you will realise you have destroyed it for everyone. You really are lame.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:20:00 - [133] Edited by: Avernus on 18/02/2007 05:19:06 triple post Blog
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:22:00 - [134] Edited to remove way too much quotable material... and once again to fix the quotes I just broke. Originally by: USN CVN72 you talk to much Avernus... hope your boyz r doing well down south because soon your dead meat Quote: Avernus talks to much. Fix knows what im saying soon they will pay for being aligned with Bob/ After LV fix will be next... Fortunately some of us who do talk to much at least have the advantage of having correctly read the original post and don't go off on unrelated (and already negated) tangents. By definition, that would mean those who know what they are responding to are constructively (or destructively) adding to a thread; whereas if you have no clue to begin with, combined with a lack of basic reading comprehension, your contribution turns into nothing more than a wet fart in polite company. Blog
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:31:00 - [135] Edited by: Nooey on 18/02/2007 05:29:00 Paradox that's a really good post, and it's one I hope CCP take notice of. Please try and understand I'm not trying to "spin" anything at all. My post is not intended be, nor do I think it is, any kind of justification for the current state of game mechanics that allowed this Titan to die. It is a simple observation of how things currently are, and a secondary observation that given how they are, d2 should have acted differently, especially given what they were protecting and who they were fighting - an alliance known eve-wide for winning at any cost. I personally don't like the way Titans are dying at all. I don't like the way Cyvok died, I don't like the way LV's died and I don't like the way D2's died. Two quotes, one from this post, and one from another thread I posted in a few days ago. Originally by: Nooey Talk about how the game should be all you like guys. It's a good discussion to have by all means. The point remains however. If you do not embrace the current reality of how things are, you will lose a Titan and have nobody to blame but yourself. It is not CCP's fault you refused to act according to the current reality of game mechanics. Acting according to your perception of how the game should be will only end badly for you. That is the only point I made. Perhaps I appeared sarcastic there, I was actually be serious. Talk about it all you like, I don't really care that it's something of a derail of the specific topic here. It's a discussion that must be had for the good of the game and gamers. Quote: I find it profoundly dissapointing that a Titan was destroyed without a fight. Again. Hopefully you can see I'm not justifying BoB's actions beyond saying two things: - They didn't exploit - Underhanded gameplay tactics that remain non-exploitative are a longstanding feature of Eve, and this style of play is arguably encouraged by CCP. However, the question is, should this style of play be encouraged when it results in such massively important losses? That's something I think most of the community, even quite a lot of BoB would agree, shouldn't be encouraged. But they will play the game that CCP lets them until CCP doesn't let them anymore. To do anything less and to not push the limits of possibility would, in my opinion, also detract from BoB's legacy. For what it's worth. I wouldn't have sanctioned an operation like this. I do think the way that supercapitals are dying know is a terrible thing. I do think CCP needs to change it so that a 12-step, 20-minute process isn't mandatory like it is now. But it is mandatory, for the moment. My point is that, until things do change, it is the responsibility of any alliance interested in Titan-preservation to act based upon the current situation, and to accept that it's their fault if they lose a Titan failing to do so. I can understand like Liet says, that it's still too raw to bring up and have a 100% good discussion about, but honestly guys, the time to discuss this with more than just flames is right now. If we just whine about it, CCP will take less notice, if we constructively engage with the fundamental issues of "is it legitimate now and should it be legitimate in the future" then they will sit up and listen to the community. Perhaps my point is best summarized by saying, I don't think D2 deserved to lose the Titan that way, but they certainly brought it upon themselves. P.S. <3 Avernus. Thank you.
Arlenna Molatov Caldari The 59th Parallel	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:36:00 - [136] Originally by: USN CVN72 Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/02/2007 03:46:18 After reading your posts Avernus... I would like to ask you a question. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to. Would you have authorised an operation such as the one undertaken by BoB to kill D2's Titan? Would you have let FIX pilots go deep undercover to explicitly take advantage of game mechanics to trigger that aggro timer? Me personally, no, but that is simply a personal choice, and I tend to hold FIX to my personal choices for better or worse. I also don't expect others to play Eve the way I play it. Before you ask why we would align ourselves to someone that would use mechanics to their advantage, I'll give you the answer (because I imagine that is actually what is on your mind and where this is leading); simply put, mechanics and playstyle are not the only thing by which I judge other people/alliances. The reasons why FIX is friends and allies with BoB are many and well documented. you talk to much Avernus... hope your boyz r doing well down south because soon your dead meat And here folks is a PRIME example of people who take events that happen in a game and can't let go of them once they walk away from the PC. This is what more and more peolpe are seeing. ACTUAL INTENDED HATRED of people ove an internet line...in a MAKE BELIEVE GAME! That why Eve and this very community is going down the wretched toilet. USN being its very poster child...... ...wow
USN CVN72 Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:58:00 - [137] Originally by: Avernus Edited to remove way too much quotable material... and once again to fix the quotes I just broke. Originally by: USN CVN72 you talk to much Avernus... hope your boyz r doing well down south because soon your dead meat Quote: Avernus talks to much. Fix knows what im saying soon they will pay for being aligned with Bob/ After LV fix will be next... Fortunately some of us who do talk to much at least have the advantage of having correctly read the original post and don't go off on unrelated (and already negated) tangents. By definition, that would mean those who know what they are responding to are constructively (or destructively) adding to a thread; whereas if you have no clue to begin with, combined with a lack of basic reading comprehension, your contribution turns into nothing more than a wet fart in polite company. Avernus - i will respond to you with a Smile and a hug!!! real soon you and i will be in the same system fighting...
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.18 05:59:00 - [138] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov And here folks is a PRIME example of people who take events that happen in a game and can't let go of them once they walk away from the PC. This is what more and more peolpe are seeing. ACTUAL INTENDED HATRED of people ove an internet line...in a MAKE BELIEVE GAME! That why Eve and this very community is going down the wretched toilet. This used to be such a great community..and game. Now all you see are threats, whines, crying...call-outs, people looking in dictonaries to find a different way of putting down others. And no, not all of it is ....RP. Most of it in this whole forum is real. And that is totally pathetic. Ah it's ok... USN is like my personal Eve stalker. It's a good working relationship in truth, his complete opposition to me combined with his lack of skill in these forums appears to only serve to bolster my own points and arguements. Blog
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.18 06:01:00 - [139] Originally by: USN CVN72 Originally by: Avernus Edited to remove way too much quotable material... and once again to fix the quotes I just broke. Originally by: USN CVN72 you talk to much Avernus... hope your boyz r doing well down south because soon your dead meat Quote: Avernus talks to much. Fix knows what im saying soon they will pay for being aligned with Bob/ After LV fix will be next... Fortunately some of us who do talk to much at least have the advantage of having correctly read the original post and don't go off on unrelated (and already negated) tangents. By definition, that would mean those who know what they are responding to are constructively (or destructively) adding to a thread; whereas if you have no clue to begin with, combined with a lack of basic reading comprehension, your contribution turns into nothing more than a wet fart in polite company. Avernus - i will respond to you with a Smile and a hug!!! real soon you and i will be in the same system fighting... Thanks for the intel... I'm sure if it's accurate the rest of Roadkill will be appropriately appreciative of you telling us in advance. Blog
USN CVN72 Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.18 06:11:00 - [140] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 18/02/2007 05:35:15 Originally by: USN CVN72 Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/02/2007 03:46:18 After reading your posts Avernus... I would like to ask you a question. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to. Would you have authorised an operation such as the one undertaken by BoB to kill D2's Titan? Would you have let FIX pilots go deep undercover to explicitly take advantage of game mechanics to trigger that aggro timer? Me personally, no, but that is simply a personal choice, and I tend to hold FIX to my personal choices for better or worse. I also don't expect others to play Eve the way I play it. Before you ask why we would align ourselves to someone that would use mechanics to their advantage, I'll give you the answer (because I imagine that is actually what is on your mind and where this is leading); simply put, mechanics and playstyle are not the only thing by which I judge other people/alliances. The reasons why FIX is friends and allies with BoB are many and well documented. you talk to much Avernus... hope your boyz r doing well down south because soon your dead meat And here folks is a PRIME example of people who take events that happen in a game and can't let go of them once they walk away from the PC. This is what more and more peolpe are seeing. ACTUAL INTENDED HATRED of people ove an internet line...in a MAKE BELIEVE GAME! That why Eve and this very community is going down the wretched toilet. This used to be such a great community..and game. Now all you see are threats, whines, crying...call-outs, people looking in dictonaries to find a different way of putting down others. And no, not all of it is ....RP. Most of it in this whole forum is real. And that is totally pathetic. Dear Arlenna, if you think that there is hatred from this post than you are absolutly reading and taking these threads way to serious... those that have been part of this game since 2003 have a game history. i wont go into detail as this isnt about me. This is just propaganda against fix. In no way do i hate anyone in this game. Avernus is a class act in game and in real life i am told. Remember this is a game... USN I am role playing

Nikandros Lee	Posted - 2007.02.18 06:15:00 - [141] Originally by: Tar Kovsky Scenario A: Ship is at POS for an hour. Gets a call for help. Warps in, is outnumbered, gets bubbled before firing a shot. Scenario B: Ship is at POS for an hour. Pilot announces on TeamSpeak that he's going to log. Spy overhears and manages to damage ship because part of it extends outside the shields. A lot of people seem to think that the pilot in scenario A should get aggro to prevent logging, but that the pilot in scenario B should not. And yet there's not really a whole lot to distinguish them other than intent, which the game can't measure. I see what you are saying here, but the big difference is the bubble. It shouldn't matter if you have aggro or not, if you are bubbled or scrammed you should stay, if you aren't, you should disappear. The point is someone trying to escape from a fight, or someone trying to go back to RL. There is a major difference in terms of intent, and in terms of game code.
USN CVN72 Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.18 06:19:00 - [142] Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Arlenna Molatov And here folks is a PRIME example of people who take events that happen in a game and can't let go of them once they walk away from the PC. This is what more and more peolpe are seeing. ACTUAL INTENDED HATRED of people ove an internet line...in a MAKE BELIEVE GAME! That why Eve and this very community is going down the wretched toilet. This used to be such a great community..and game. Now all you see are threats, whines, crying...call-outs, people looking in dictonaries to find a different way of putting down others. And no, not all of it is ....RP. Most of it in this whole forum is real. And that is totally pathetic. Ah it's ok... USN is like my personal Eve stalker. It's a good working relationship in truth, his complete opposition to me combined with his lack of skill in these forums appears to only serve to bolster my own points and arguements. hehe Avernus now your making me laugh... ya i dont have any skill in the forums winks
Arithon Draedus NQX Logistics	Posted - 2007.02.18 06:43:00 - [143] Originally by: Nooey You guys wanna know what is more valuable than a Titan and more dangerous than the Doomsday it can pump out? Trust. LoL...........you are very much correct........but not in the way that you think! What is more valuable that a Titan and more dangerous than a DD? It IS Trust...........EvE TRUST! (www.evetrust.com) This corp is huge and if you think that the funds aren't there to build another one then you are not as smart as you think.....That is if they don't already have multiple ones in the oven right now! oh BTW......Are you a Titan Pilot? If not......STFU
Tab'Fren TBC Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.18 07:01:00 - [144] Legit/not legit... I have no opinion because I don't know the facts. One thing I'm sure of though, it was lame how it was done.
Ronin Reborn Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.18 07:31:00 - [145] Edited by: Ronin Reborn on 18/02/2007 07:29:41 Not going to comment on the legitimacy of the titan kill, I just want to state two things and ask a question. Game mechanics are inhuman, predictable things. They apply equally to everyone, this is not to say that I like/dislike all of them but you should certainly know how they work if you've been selected to be a titan pilot. I seriously doubt that any group involved is 100% innocent in this war. It seems everyone uses spies, or at least utilize information gathered by them. Other, more malicious things have been done on many different sides in many different wars. I'm not going to point fingers at anyone because frankly, I don't have that many digits. Now for my question: Whats to stop a titan pilot from using an alt to setup a cyno field as far away from hostiles as possible and cyno-ing away before logging? It would seem that the sheer logistics of manuvering a fleet to pop a titan within a 15 minute window, after probing him down, would be a tough ticket. Off topic:How in Hades did nanoBS make it into this thread?!
Cigney Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.18 08:26:00 - [146] Quote: Scenario A: Ship is at POS for an hour. Gets a call for help. Warps in, is outnumbered, gets bubbled before firing a shot. Scenario B: Ship is at POS for an hour. Pilot announces on TeamSpeak that he's going to log. Spy overhears and manages to damage ship because part of it extends outside the shields. A lot of people seem to think that the pilot in scenario A should get aggro to prevent logging, but that the pilot in scenario B should not. And yet there's not really a whole lot to distinguish them other than intent, which the game can't measure. That's why there's a Petition button. Intent does matter. If it didn't, the only thing CCP would respond to is stuck petitions. As has been pointed out in this thread already, though, people get their ships back every day when attacked in ways that subvert the intent of the game code. It's CCP's game. They're the only ones with an opinion here that matters. Hopefully they'll choke off this line of gameplay. And it wouldn't matter if it was Darwin's Contraption that got nuked by D2 instead of D2's ship by BoB, I'd still be completely disgusted that massive gameplay efforts were being expended to kill someone's ship who wasn't playing. The future of Eve: beautiful fleets of ships in space, capitals and supercapitals floating magestically in space, fingers poised over the triggers of their mighty weapons, all waiting for... ...someone to log because his wife calls, or he has to take a dump. Stirring space opera there, folks.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.02.18 11:37:00 - [147] To me this comes down to one simple thing. Trust! 1. You have to be able to trust your allies, if not, whats the point in having an alliance? 2. You have to trust the game it self. That the game mechanism is working as its ment. As i see both those two were broken here. Someone in the alliance of D2 broke that trust and did a hostile act against an ally. The second part. Well. Game wasnt inteded for this to happen or be used in this way. And im pretty sure i read something in the rules of EVE that if you use the game in a way that its not ment for, its an abuse, exploit or what you want to call it. To me this is pretty easy. Some people broke the "rules" of EVE. So reimburse the Titan and punnish the rule breakers. If this kind of act is allowed to go on, we havent seen the worst of it. Limits tend to be pushed further and furter. My question is when will CCP draw the line? and how? It would not be enough to reimburse the Titan to make a statement that this is going to far. Would also have to punnish the people who took part in this. Only that way you will get people to stay within the rules of how EVE was ment to be played. As CCP has not acted toward this exploit, i guess we will see more exploit to come. And way worse examples then this one. Limits will be pushed when it comes to exploits....trust me on this. And the more CCP sits passive and does nothing, the harder it will be to stop the abuse and exploiting. Ive seen this in many games. And in the end, it is the ones who knows the most exploits and able to use them that wins. If CCP doesnt get their act together and stop the exploits right away, this game will be all about exploits....sadly but true. EVE is like a familly. CCP is the parents and the playerbase is the kids..... And everyone being a parent knows that if you dont set limits to your children, they will push the limits further and further. And in the end, the kids will be really hard to controll or make them follow the rules you try to set. Its human to do this, and its not BOB nor D2's job to make sure the rules are followed. As a "parent" to us all, CCP is the one who sets the rules, and punnishments, and makes sure that everyone follows the rules as ment.
Nalia Telandar	Posted - 2007.02.18 14:01:00 - [148] Fellow Eve'ers, I have to say I agree with most of what the original poster says. I used to play a MUD that involved Chaotic Player Killing; when someone PK'ed you in these regions you lost a level (standard XP grind) and they were able to steal up to 3 pieces of your gear. It's kind of like the system that Shadowbane and Ultima (pre-carebear shards) had and I found that the people who died in CPK usually died from treachery or from carelessness. The risk to gain ratio was simply too high for anyone to engage in these areas in a 1v1 duel. Originally by: Happster To me this comes down to one simple thing. Trust! 1. You have to be able to trust your allies, if not, whats the point in having an alliance? I think that to succeed in a cutthroat hard-core PVP game you should assume the guys you are fighting really are all cheating, and that a good 5-10% of the guys in your clan/guild/corp are spies and ready to screw you over at a moments notice. I'm not saying I wouldn't like it to be a bit different, but I don't have the capacity to make that happen. Sometimes the organizational bodies and people you run into will be honest straightforward and friendly. Most times they are going to be roleplaying as if they are a thug with quadruple murders on his felony rap-sheet. :P I have been wondering recently if any of the existing corporations/alliances segment out their userbase using a cell-based org setup, much like terrist/counter-terrorist ops roll with. Assuming (from my out of the air estimates) you are going to have 5 or 10 spies for every 100, it makes sense to limit the damage possibilities to a minimum and simply never give them access to high value targets/opportunities. Goonsquad? People bring up the goon guys a lot. They say that the goons are intentionally bringing 1000's of guys to each node to force crash it. I am not a member of this alliance, but I have some doubts about this happening. My impression of the alliance is that they are the zerg of the game; used for softening up heavies and purging a system of all support ships so their capship using allies can take it. Zergs in most games I play don't have any sort of co-ordinated planning going on, they just all glom on target after target (here it would be systems). If what I have been reading is true, their average ship cost is less than 1 million ISK, which leads to the second factor. If the enemy has like 50 Tier 2 battleships, 10 Carriers, and 3 MS's, the goons have to bring like 600 guys minimum without the fight being a suicide strike. It is a vicious circle really. Lastly, I would like to bring up the 10:1 odds deal and the other quote regarding pyrrhic victory. I will state right off that I am enlisting to fight against the guys entrenched in the south. With all the spying going on, I have willingly agreed to severe restrictions and will basically end up as an orebot for the course of the war. I am brand new to the game, I have never heard of any of the alliances before last week and I certainly cannot hate people I have never spoken to or seen. I have, however, read the official and unofficial statements regarding the "events" (<--- it feels like an Orwell world these days ). I am joining the fight because killing the alliances in the south seems to be the only thing I can do to make CCP pay attention. 10:1 odds is a decent start, but I would personally like to see 50:1 if possible. For me this isn't a war, it isn't about battles, killing Band of Brothers is a message to CCP. If Band of Brothers wins a battle against 30,000 or 40,000 people I also think that it will be pyrrhic, as a lot of the game will cancel their subs and once you go below a certain number of active players it ends up as a useless ghost town. For those who made it this far, I thank you for investing the time.
steamy The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2007.02.18 14:17:00 - [149] I must say I agree with the OP. On the other hand, it seems like people are more focused on finding things to complain about, then on the actual gameplay. I have seen several people complaining that were congratulating spies offlining pos'es, kicking spies by out of game means etc etc. BoB/BoD or whatever name you want to give them, used, some controversially, ingame mechanics. mechanics that could have been detected easily. this leaves me to say this: Ouch and stuff, who cares, life goes on. don't forget to have fun. Steamy If you only look at the road ahead, Life isn't worth the trip -- Dante
bulabuba Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2007.02.18 14:44:00 - [150] It's meta-gaming. It's lame. Legal and right aren't the same thing. All that has been demonstrated in this instance is that, to some people, winning is more important than playing. It's obvious that the cov ops pilot in this situation was sent there to do just what he did. He was shadowing the titan, waiting to aggress it when he saw in some private coms channel that it was about to log. It was a setup, to exploit (yes, exploit) the game mechanics for an advantage. The exploit can be closed. Warping out of a POS at log off is unnecessary anyway, and should be fixed. Whether it needs to be fixed depends on the sense of sportsmanship (or lack thereof) in the player community. In the case of Eve, obviouly, it needs fixing, because there are powerful elements among us who will exploit any advantage to win, including manipulating the game mechanics in ways the devs never intended. Aside from all of that, just vote with your guns. If this kind of "do anything to win" mentality isn't OK with you, blow up their stuff, and make them disband, so that they'll serve as an example to others of what we, the players of eve, won't tolerate. ----------------------------------------------- Are GoonSwarm ever going to be allowed to build up in any way in 0.0 space again? No. -DB Preacher[BoB]

SaorAlba Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.18 15:23:00 - [151] Guys get over it. We have. Learn you lessons. We do. Our moral has risen over this. Join in. lets all beat the crap out this bunch of cheaters. How can anybody be proud of being in Bod? How can you be proud supporting them in anyway? Together we can end this. Fly your corp up and roam around in there space. Hunt them and there minions down like the dogs they are. Don't stand aside.
USN CVN72 Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.02.18 15:30:00 - [152] Originally by: SaorAlba Guys get over it. We have. Learn you lessons. We do. Our moral has risen over this. Join in. lets all beat the crap out this bunch of cheaters. How can anybody be proud of being in Bod? How can you be proud supporting them in anyway? Together we can end this. Fly your corp up and roam around in there space. Hunt them and there minions down like the dogs they are. Don't stand aside. I AGREE 100% lets get back to fighting in-game and let ccp handle the other issues...
Zimi Vlasic F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.02.18 15:41:00 - [153] Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Avernus Me personally, no, but that is simply a personal choice, and I tend to hold FIX to my personal choices for better or worse. I also don't expect others to play Eve the way I play it. Before you ask why we would align ourselves to someone that would use mechanics to their advantage, I'll give you the answer (because I imagine that is actually what is on your mind and where this is leading); simply put, mechanics and playstyle are not the only thing by which I judge other people/alliances. The reasons why FIX is friends and allies with BoB are many and well documented. Thankyou for the honest answer. Actually I wanted to know your take on the matter from a personal point of view and there was no ulterior motive to my question, other than to find out whether it would be something you would authorise. For the record; and I have given this substantial thought whilst I waited for you to respond, had I been in a position to authorise such an operation I would have had to weigh up very heavily how badly that Titan needed to die. I would have been very tempted to give the operation the green light if the future of my alliance depended on it and I mean absolutely depended on it. However, in doing so I would realise that taking such a step would be helping to take the game towards a pretty dark place, where fun is no longer the objective. ... and then probably after much deliberation.. would have decided that if thats what it takes to win... I wouldn't want to. Ofc this is all highly subjective....and as far as I can tell no exploits were involved... and thats what matters right? ...... Personally I have to admit that before BoB did this, I wouldn't have authorized this type pf move. However, now, today, I wouldn't hesitate. Fight fire with fire. Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer
Scius Amarr Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:59:00 - [154] legit kill, i spose we could get ccp to put a window up as you log out ' you are about to log off with agression are you stupid' press 'Yes' To many ' i have morals' bs, they never exploited they never twisted the games mechanics, if your agressed and log you stay in space, simple. Standard practice to scan out logged of pilots.
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2007.02.18 22:33:00 - [155] 1) I dont know how far you can cyno in a titan, but it should be clear to jump out to an empty system before logging. 2) Stop ripping on BoB ffs, they are good pilots and they actually have to organize and execute plans. I don't understand all this. BoB worked HARD. Just because the titan pilot wasnt online doesnt mean it was easy. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=465618
Jason Marshall Emerald Empire	Posted - 2007.02.18 22:39:00 - [156] Ill praise bob when they manage to take down a titan that has an aware pilot who isnt loged off. Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
Jason Marshall Emerald Empire	Posted - 2007.02.18 22:39:00 - [157] Ill praise bob when they manage to take down a titan that has an aware pilot who isnt loged off. Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.18 22:50:00 - [158] Originally by: Nalia Telandar Goonsquad? People bring up the goon guys a lot. They say that the goons are intentionally bringing 1000's of guys to each node to force crash it. I am not a member of this alliance, but I have some doubts about this happening. My impression of the alliance is that they are the zerg of the game; used for softening up heavies and purging a system of all support ships so their capship using allies can take it. Zergs in most games I play don't have any sort of co-ordinated planning going on, they just all glom on target after target (here it would be systems). If what I have been reading is true, their average ship cost is less than 1 million ISK, which leads to the second factor. If the enemy has like 50 Tier 2 battleships, 10 Carriers, and 3 MS's, the goons have to bring like 600 guys minimum without the fight being a suicide strike. It is a vicious circle really. I agree to this, but the game can't really handle zerg armees. Disorder/chaos e.g. because of node crashes is the enemy of any advanced fleet, tactics, expensive ship. _______ I came, I read, I lol'ed.
Saul Reaver	Posted - 2007.02.18 23:58:00 - [159] Originally by: Nobues Edited by: Nobues on 17/02/2007 16:44:40 Edited by: Nobues on 17/02/2007 16:44:15 So here my thinking of it. You shouldn't have to think about how you can lose something when you log out, you shouldn'thave to think about how low a alliance like BOB will go to do something. BOB are low scrum right right now, there lower then that peace of gum on the bottom of your shoe. BOB HAS YET TO KILL A TITAN! They exploited 2 deaths of a titan but they have yet to kill them. To kill something that counts they have to be loged in the game fighting anything else does not matter. and before you say "but your do the same thing", no I will not if I see the titan person log out, he logs out. I want my kills to be face to face honorable kills. So what you are saying is that if you had the chance to kill an Enemies Titan you would not attack it. RUBBISH, You know very well what you would do. If i were an Alliance leader and found out that ANY of my pilots passed on a chance to kill an Enemy Titan i would show them the door without hesitation.

Serathu Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.02.19 00:16:00 - [160] May I remind you that you are not permitted to post in this forum if you are not showing your corporation and alliance identifiers or if you are in an NPC corp. Posts that break this rule will be removed and warnings issued where necessary. \| Forum Rules \| CAOD Rules \| CRC Website \| [email protected] \|


papaPadla Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.19 00:50:00 - [161] Originally by: Shin Ra Would it be so difficult to make a visible time that lets you know when its safe to log off. With so many weird and wonderful things that can agress you, often without you knowing (passive targeters or friendly ship failing an ecm on you maybe?), i can't see it being that difficult to make a timer like that. The voice of reason -------------------------------------
trk4 Amarr Freeform Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.19 00:54:00 - [162] Originally by: Bryg Philomena 2) Stop ripping on BoB ffs, they are good pilots and they actually have to organize and execute plans. I don't understand all this. BoB worked HARD. Just because the titan pilot wasnt online doesnt mean it was easy. I agree, deal with the fact that you all got outwitted. Legal or not the Titan was lost, and whining about it wont change anything here on the forums.
Wicke Gallente Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.19 01:58:00 - [163] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 18/02/2007 05:35:15 Originally by: USN CVN72 Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 18/02/2007 03:46:18 After reading your posts Avernus... I would like to ask you a question. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to. Would you have authorised an operation such as the one undertaken by BoB to kill D2's Titan? Would you have let FIX pilots go deep undercover to explicitly take advantage of game mechanics to trigger that aggro timer? Me personally, no, but that is simply a personal choice, and I tend to hold FIX to my personal choices for better or worse. I also don't expect others to play Eve the way I play it. Before you ask why we would align ourselves to someone that would use mechanics to their advantage, I'll give you the answer (because I imagine that is actually what is on your mind and where this is leading); simply put, mechanics and playstyle are not the only thing by which I judge other people/alliances. The reasons why FIX is friends and allies with BoB are many and well documented. you talk to much Avernus... hope your boyz r doing well down south because soon your dead meat And here folks is a PRIME example of people who take events that happen in a game and can't let go of them once they walk away from the PC. This is what more and more peolpe are seeing. ACTUAL INTENDED HATRED of people ove an internet line...in a MAKE BELIEVE GAME! That why Eve and this very community is going down the wretched toilet. This used to be such a great community..and game. Now all you see are threats, whines, crying...call-outs, people looking in dictonaries to find a different way of putting down others. And no, not all of it is ....RP. Most of it in this whole forum is real. And that is totally pathetic. This is what is also wrong with the politics around the world today. Blind hatred = not thinking for youself and the lack of ability to rise above the conflict and objectively weigh the situation. At a time in our existence where the highest number of literate people exist, this blind hatred is remarkably ironic. And its sad.
Dire Lonestar Caldari Global Isk Network Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:11:00 - [164] The voice of moral any bob? :D -- Another one bites the dust!
Kampfgoessn The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:25:00 - [165] an Blob, Shm BoD, Shm BoC, Shm BoB pet Post again ... me /move BloB, Shm BoD, Shm BoC, BoB to singularity server -------------------------------------- - = Trust = - X-Trading Company [XT]
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:26:00 - [166] In pvp you loose ships and make your enemy loose ships. The best part in Eve is that loosing ships or POS dont mean you loose. It means you get to loose some more. It means it does not matter. You have carebears or other income to get more ships. It means that PVP is about loosing ships. I like loosing ships. Its the reward of making someone else that does not want to loose their ship that makes me all warm inside. Note to all. I like PVP. I might not kill you today or next week but I will be trying for months and years and decades. As long as I live the evil Bob will go boom and all that believe evil play is right. You wish you dont know truth cause boom is fun and your my target. snip you signature may not exceed 24000 - Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
SPQRMocton Minmatar Hand Of Bethke	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:50:00 - [167] Without reading the pages in between I would just like to point out that what the OP said is (and this is my opinion) is exactly true, those that claim the timer wasn't intended for that ,the devs did't want it to happen that way ,and all the other blah blah blah just need to realize that bob is serious about wiping out all holders of zero space, plain and simple they make no apologies for their actions ,they don't feel bad about it ,they love to kill you assets and even more when you whine that they cheated it makes them happy ! Now was the action underhanded and sneaky HELL YA ! but it did it's job to remove a dangerous asset to them , now I have always made it a habit to check my logs when I log out in a ss and also use my covert alt to make sure that I am off scanner , and I don't even have a cap ship , that being said it is to no avail to say this or that should be changed , I don't see anyone crying that gravity makes water go to it's lowest point anywhere because they accept the reality of it and it is just dealt with as a constant. So stop saying it's not fair ,accept the reality of log out kills and use the proper methods to avoid them ,the one thing that is a constant in all of this is bob does have spy's placed in high positions of most if not all of the forces facing them they have planned this very thing for a loooooong time and have contingency plans for most things it seems I respect their planning and organization skills , they really play to win and that is why eve has such a large fan base , you can play anyway that makes you happy. Now It certainly is a big bummer that the titan was lost and how but it's is a far greater victory in terms of planning and morale then an actual straight up fight that it was lost in. So the best thing to do is learn from it and never let it happen again , It's not paranoid to trust only yourself when dealing with multi billion isk ships and keeping some responseability only to your self. Plan on someone being trecherous to you and deal accordingly , that doesn't mean trusting no one at any time ,it just means trusting what you can afford to lose only. Nice to see a well thought out post and also nice propaganda piece meant to get the allaince to start distruting one another. The key for the alliance is not to just blindly trust but to look at the higher goal and trust that you all want the same thing, play your hand but keep your cards hidden If You work to insure Loyalty points With a Corp be sure you can spend them someday
SPQRMocton Minmatar Hand Of Bethke	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:50:00 - [168] Without reading the pages in between I would just like to point out that what the OP said is (and this is my opinion) is exactly true, those that claim the timer wasn't intended for that ,the devs did't want it to happen that way ,and all the other blah blah blah just need to realize that bob is serious about wiping out all holders of zero space, plain and simple they make no apologies for their actions ,they don't feel bad about it ,they love to kill you assets and even more when you whine that they cheated it makes them happy ! Now was the action underhanded and sneaky HELL YA ! but it did it's job to remove a dangerous asset to them , now I have always made it a habit to check my logs when I log out in a ss and also use my covert alt to make sure that I am off scanner , and I don't even have a cap ship , that being said it is to no avail to say this or that should be changed , I don't see anyone crying that gravity makes water go to it's lowest point anywhere because they accept the reality of it and it is just dealt with as a constant. So stop saying it's not fair ,accept the reality of log out kills and use the proper methods to avoid them ,the one thing that is a constant in all of this is bob does have spy's placed in high positions of most if not all of the forces facing them they have planned this very thing for a loooooong time and have contingency plans for most things it seems I respect their planning and organization skills , they really play to win and that is why eve has such a large fan base , you can play anyway that makes you happy. Now It certainly is a big bummer that the titan was lost and how but it's is a far greater victory in terms of planning and morale then an actual straight up fight that it was lost in. So the best thing to do is learn from it and never let it happen again , It's not paranoid to trust only yourself when dealing with multi billion isk ships and keeping some responseability only to your self. Plan on someone being trecherous to you and deal accordingly , that doesn't mean trusting no one at any time ,it just means trusting what you can afford to lose only. Nice to see a well thought out post and also nice propaganda piece meant to get the allaince to start distruting one another. The key for the alliance is not to just blindly trust but to look at the higher goal and trust that you all want the same thing, play your hand but keep your cards hidden If You work to insure Loyalty points With a Corp be sure you can spend them someday
SPQRMocton Minmatar Hand Of Bethke	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:50:00 - [169] Edited by: SPQRMocton on 19/02/2007 18:07:58 Without reading the pages in between I would just like to point out that what the OP said is (and this is my opinion) is exactly true, those that claim the timer wasn't intended for that ,the devs did't want it to happen that way ,and all the other blah blah blah just need to realize that bob is serious about wiping out all holders of zero space, plain and simple they make no apologies for their actions ,they don't feel bad about it ,they love to kill you assets and even more when you whine that they cheated it makes them happy ! Now was the action underhanded and sneaky HELL YA ! but it did it's job to remove a dangerous asset to them , now I have always made it a habit to check my logs when I log out in a ss and also use my covert alt to make sure that I am off scanner , and I don't even have a cap ship , that being said it is to no avail to say this or that should be changed , I don't see anyone crying that gravity makes water go to it's lowest point anywhere because they accept the reality of it and it is just dealt with as a constant. So stop saying it's not fair ,accept the reality of log out kills and use the proper methods to avoid them ,the one thing that is a constant in all of this is bob does have spy's placed in high positions of most if not all of the forces facing them ,they have planned this very thing for a loooooong time and have contingency plans for most things it seems ,I respect their planning and organization skills , they really play to win and that is why eve has such a large fan base , you can play anyway that makes you happy. Now It certainly is a big bummer that the titan was lost and how ,but it's is a far greater victory in terms of planning and morale then if it was lost in an actual straight up fight. So the best thing to do is learn from it and never let it happen again , It's not paranoid to trust only yourself when dealing with multi billion isk ships and keeping some responseability only to your self. Plan on someone being trecherous to you and deal accordingly , that doesn't mean trusting no one at any time ,it just means trusting what you can afford to lose only. Nice to see a well thought out post and also nice propaganda piece meant to get the alliance to start distrusting one another. The key for the alliance is not to just blindly trust ,but to look at the higher goal and trust that you all want the same thing, play your hand but keep your cards hidden If You work to insure Loyalty points With a Corp be sure you can spend them someday
SPQRMocton Minmatar Hand Of Bethke	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:50:00 - [170] Edited by: SPQRMocton on 19/02/2007 18:07:58 Without reading the pages in between I would just like to point out that what the OP said is (and this is my opinion) is exactly true, those that claim the timer wasn't intended for that ,the devs did't want it to happen that way ,and all the other blah blah blah just need to realize that bob is serious about wiping out all holders of zero space, plain and simple they make no apologies for their actions ,they don't feel bad about it ,they love to kill you assets and even more when you whine that they cheated it makes them happy ! Now was the action underhanded and sneaky HELL YA ! but it did it's job to remove a dangerous asset to them , now I have always made it a habit to check my logs when I log out in a ss and also use my covert alt to make sure that I am off scanner , and I don't even have a cap ship , that being said it is to no avail to say this or that should be changed , I don't see anyone crying that gravity makes water go to it's lowest point anywhere because they accept the reality of it and it is just dealt with as a constant. So stop saying it's not fair ,accept the reality of log out kills and use the proper methods to avoid them ,the one thing that is a constant in all of this is bob does have spy's placed in high positions of most if not all of the forces facing them ,they have planned this very thing for a loooooong time and have contingency plans for most things it seems ,I respect their planning and organization skills , they really play to win and that is why eve has such a large fan base , you can play anyway that makes you happy. Now It certainly is a big bummer that the titan was lost and how ,but it's is a far greater victory in terms of planning and morale then if it was lost in an actual straight up fight. So the best thing to do is learn from it and never let it happen again , It's not paranoid to trust only yourself when dealing with multi billion isk ships and keeping some responseability only to your self. Plan on someone being trecherous to you and deal accordingly , that doesn't mean trusting no one at any time ,it just means trusting what you can afford to lose only. Nice to see a well thought out post and also nice propaganda piece meant to get the alliance to start distrusting one another. The key for the alliance is not to just blindly trust ,but to look at the higher goal and trust that you all want the same thing, play your hand but keep your cards hidden If You work to insure Loyalty points With a Corp be sure you can spend them someday

Empyre ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:04:00 - [171] Originally by: steamy this leaves me to say this: Ouch and stuff, who cares, life goes on. don't forget to have fun. that link brightened up my morning, thanks! People argue when their personal views are at odds, whereas a debate is a more formal method of analyzing the angles of an issue.
Empyre ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:04:00 - [172] Originally by: steamy this leaves me to say this: Ouch and stuff, who cares, life goes on. don't forget to have fun. that link brightened up my morning, thanks! People argue when their personal views are at odds, whereas a debate is a more formal method of analyzing the angles of an issue.
Empyre ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:04:00 - [173] Originally by: steamy this leaves me to say this: Ouch and stuff, who cares, life goes on. don't forget to have fun. that link brightened up my morning, thanks! People argue when their personal views are at odds, whereas a debate is a more formal method of analyzing the angles of an issue.
Giamilton Gallente Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:23:00 - [174] Edited by: Giamilton on 19/02/2007 18:27:36 Titan Pilots beware, if you are not prepared to stay logged in until downtime, don't even log on. Logging is broken. At gates guys jump in see the gang and hit ctrl-q, you target and start to damage them, then poof they dissapear. Meanwhile friendly aggro sets the timer on a Titan and is destroyed and he is fwih unable to even log-on to fight. It's hard to balance a game, I wouldn't want to be CCP. This is getting lame though. I hate logoffskies yet interupted internet connections need to be accounted for. I say all ships stay in space for 5 minutes after log-off, period. If they are un-aggroed they dissapear, if they are aggroed during the 5 minutes the timer is set to 15 minutes after 15 the ship dissapears from the game regardless. So in a fight and log-off you stay for 5+15 minutes. Out of a fight and log-off you stay just 5 minutes. Just my 02 isk. Props to those of you that don't control-Q when you run across my gang at a gate you just jumped through. Maybe no log-off within 2 minutes of changing sessions? I give up, pretty soon we will all be flying nano-i-stab battleships and logoffski every time it looks like we might actually lose.
Giamilton Gallente Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:23:00 - [175] Edited by: Giamilton on 19/02/2007 18:27:36 Titan Pilots beware, if you are not prepared to stay logged in until downtime, don't even log on. Logging is broken. At gates guys jump in see the gang and hit ctrl-q, you target and start to damage them, then poof they dissapear. Meanwhile friendly aggro sets the timer on a Titan and is destroyed and he is fwih unable to even log-on to fight. It's hard to balance a game, I wouldn't want to be CCP. This is getting lame though. I hate logoffskies yet interupted internet connections need to be accounted for. I say all ships stay in space for 5 minutes after log-off, period. If they are un-aggroed they dissapear, if they are aggroed during the 5 minutes the timer is set to 15 minutes after 15 the ship dissapears from the game regardless. So in a fight and log-off you stay for 5+15 minutes. Out of a fight and log-off you stay just 5 minutes. Just my 02 isk. Props to those of you that don't control-Q when you run across my gang at a gate you just jumped through. Maybe no log-off within 2 minutes of changing sessions? I give up, pretty soon we will all be flying nano-i-stab battleships and logoffski every time it looks like we might actually lose.
James Snowscoran Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.19 19:07:00 - [176] Edited by: James Snowscoran on 19/02/2007 19:05:46 Originally by: Jason Marshall Ill praise bob when they manage to take down a titan that has an aware pilot who isnt loged off. Yeah, and they should open a convo to ensure the pilot isn't afk too. It is also common courtesy to call off the attack if the pilot has a bad hair day or someone was mean to him at school/uni/work. And it goes without saying that you give a pilot time to assemble a defensive fleet if you want to attack a titan, what are we, savage barbarians? I'm utterly disgusted by this recent opportunistic trend of ganking anything you can get your hands on while striving to ensure the enemy has as little chance to retaliate as possible. Utterly despicable gameplay. I sincerely hope the Coalition of Traditional Family Values stand firmly against this moral corruption that is infesting our children with bad habits and pop music. -----
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.19 19:16:00 - [177] Originally by: Wicke At a time in our existence where the highest number of literate people exist, this blind hatred is remarkably ironic. And its sad. Unfortunately, the same education systems that impart literacy don't impart learning how to think. Independant thinking is something most people have to learn outside of school and higher education. Meh... I'm going off topic. Blog
Cupdeez Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 20:18:00 - [178] Edited by: Cupdeez on 19/02/2007 20:14:52 Funny a bob alt trying to justify the killà BOD we donÆt care you are still scum and we are coming to clean it up!! D2 will live they show that every day they fight you. Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip
James Snowscoran Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.19 22:30:00 - [179] Originally by: Cupdeez Edited by: Cupdeez on 19/02/2007 20:14:52 Funny a bob alt trying to justify the killà BOD we donÆt care you are still scum and we are coming to clean it up!! D2 will live they show that every day they fight you. Well, the probability that you're a D2 alt is higher than the probability Nooey is a BoB alt -----
jdok Gallente The Burning Orphans Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.20 22:09:00 - [180] It's simple. If you fly a titan, Eve IS your life. Accept responsibility for it.

Orrin Danestarr Minmatar Merchants Trade Consortium NxT LeveL	Posted - 2007.02.20 22:44:00 - [181] Edited by: Orrin Danestarr on 20/02/2007 22:44:14 Whether or not its a game mechanic, tis still dirty and under handed by any means of the word. Its a game indeed, even if you lose a capital of a titans stature, it can be replaced. D2 accepted the loss and moved on. Lets all do the same. They probably have more than 1 anyhow. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME
Brigitte	Posted - 2007.02.21 08:05:00 - [182] you 4got disclaimer 22 you talk 2 much
Plan Neun Caldari Ganja Unlimited CORE.	Posted - 2007.02.21 08:25:00 - [183] Yes its noted that BoB is very good at to shoot down Titans in logg off sequence. "I Will Drug You and Fluff You, through the permafrost"
Inthemix Division Solaris	Posted - 2007.02.21 08:37:00 - [184] Originally by: Cupdeez Edited by: Cupdeez on 19/02/2007 20:14:52 Funny a bob alt trying to justify the killà BOD we donÆt care you are still scum and we are coming to clean it up!! D2 will live they show that every day they fight you. Thank you for your greats comments mister d2fanboi. Just let me reassure you, you are not ridiculous
Vertigel Symorain Gallente Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.21 10:09:00 - [185] Originally by: Nooey Talk about how the game should be all you like guys. It's a good discussion to have by all means. The point remains however. If you do not embrace the current reality of how things are, you will lose a Titan and have nobody to blame but yourself. It is not CCP's fault you refused to act according to the current reality of game mechanics. Acting according to your perception of how the game should be will only end badly for you. That is the only point I made. This quote from page one is still the best statement I've read on EVE-O for quite some time. Why CCP felt it would be a good idea to turn off the visible aggro timer for low-sec I don't know, but anyone beeing agressed by a war-target in high-sec can tell you the aggro timer shows up there. -VS-
Bach Caldari Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.02.21 13:13:00 - [186] Being on page 7 this probably won't get alot of reads but I'll give it a go anyway. The greatest comedy of this thread is all the pocket lawyers sounding off about the legal issues and written language violation or non-violations. Probably watching too many law and order episodes or some other popular television drama these days. Reality check time. Common sense isn't dead. Bottom line, a players asset was removed from the game by other players while he was not logged into the game. Thats not very different from using a spy or a hack to get his account password and logging in while he is asleep and just deleting his account. The end result is the same. Its just some players doing whatever it takes to win. No holds barred, no rules, total war with no respect to personal privacy or even respect for a challenging opponent. This is the real problem. If you want to blame someone blame CCP. They have provided an environment that is breeding this behavior just as any pub selling alcohol is helping to breed drunk drivers. The steaks have become so high in Eve that players feel justified in doing whatever it takes to win. Many say you have no choice that its just the way the game has become and to a degree that is true. But you do have a choice. I cancelled both my accounts yesterday. If you don't like the environment offered for gaming then just move on. There are plenty of good games out there that aren't all about back stabbing, fraud or invasion of privacy as acceptable "in-game" tactics for combat. I'll keep watch and may be back again but CCP gots some cleaning up of the mess they're creating to be done first. <salute>
Phoenicia Macabre Votum Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.21 13:55:00 - [187] One could argue that BoB found the thermal exhaust port... While Vader was on the can... And the turbolasers were being scrubbed... And the TIE fighters were held up by Smithy, the docking manager... Actually nm, I haven't a clue what I''m talking about... Peace is a lie, there is only BOOBIES!
mallina Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.21 14:13:00 - [188] lame beyond all belief, if you ask me. is it really neccessary for Titan pilots to not be allowed a life? when something as simple as logging out to do stuff in RL requires the utmost secrecy and security incase there MIGHT be a spy ready to agress you its a total and utter exploit of game mechanics and it shouldn't be allowed. the logout system was NOT designed to allow this and with a passive targeter/failed ecm jam its practically undetectable. 'within game mechanics' or not, its bad for EVE. if you cant see that you need to step back and look at things for a bit
Le Cardinal ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.21 14:19:00 - [189] D2 has already made a statement about this so you should all leave this thread to die. iirc titan pilot logged at pos. The moment it warped away and came outside the pos shield d2 spy triggered smartbomb and aggroed titan. The titan pilot was already offline and wasnt aware of aggro before someone got hold of him. It took time before he managed to log back in, maybe due to system lag, or other problems. When he got back in he was already nossed to death (afaik), and had no chance of getting out. End of story. BoB didnt haxsploit here. They merely took advantage of game mechanics as they are today. And with a portion of luck too. (spy being in right position). I will not comment on wether game mechanics are flawed or not. Titan is dead and its not due to bad pilot. It was only bad luck and a well executed plan by bob. This is my opinion and mine alone. Leave this thread to die now plz. It has run its purpose a long time ago. D2 will survive and continue to kick ass
Aberash eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.21 17:10:00 - [190] Originally by: Nooey Talk about how the game should be all you like guys. It's a good discussion to have by all means. The point remains however. If you do not embrace the current reality of how things are, you will lose a Titan and have nobody to blame but yourself. It is not CCP's fault you refused to act according to the current reality of game mechanics. Acting according to your perception of how the game should be will only end badly for you. That is the only point I made. All that point really says is: theres no point flying nice shiny ships that a lot of effort and isk making has gone into, because game mechanics mean you will most likely loose it without even knowing. And therfore unless you exploit these game mechanics you cant achieve anything.. I dont know how you have accepted that yourself

Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.21 17:16:00 - [191] Considering that Nooey gave a step by step guide as to how you could make that loss impossible, I somehow don't think that was his point. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Swift Wind 6rasshopper Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.21 17:55:00 - [192] Originally by: Powdder don't kid yourself. while the method used to kill this ship is perfectly within game rules and mechanics its still a wimpy way to go. To somehow make this out to be D2's fault is low, very very low. Right in line to BoB's way of thinking. I hope like hell the rest of the eve community continues to ostracize BoB's actions and and I hope to see yet MORE of the community stand against BoB due to the underhanded way they are playing this game. Pow /signed. BoC you've done it now, even the carebears are gunnin' for you...
karumba	Posted - 2007.02.21 18:20:00 - [193] Originally by: Powdder don't kid yourself. while the method used to kill this ship is perfectly within game rules and mechanics its still a wimpy way to go. To somehow make this out to be D2's fault is low, very very low. Right in line to BoB's way of thinking. I hope like hell the rest of the eve community continues to ostracize BoB's actions and and I hope to see yet MORE of the community stand against BoB due to the underhanded way they are playing this game. Pow /signed.


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.