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Qolde
Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.26 21:08:00 -
[1]
In 0.0, I understand the emotional reason for an NBSI policy, and in some cases, I endorse it. If you see a known pirate corp in local, shoot at them. If you see a neutral battleship warp into your belt, prepare your guns. If a neutral person is in your outpost system, blow them the hell up. If ANYONE in a NPC corp is in 0.0, by all means, send them back to Ryddinjorn.
But, if some random neutral that you have no prior engagement with shows up in a random system in 0.0, do you have to shoot them? Is there no room for diplomacy? No chat in local to get a little info on their current goals? What if you have a common enemy? Sure, you could loot their hauler on general purposes just because you can, and they might have some nice loot. But would it not be wiser to talk them into sharing their loot with you, so that you both may grow? Does not every single current alliance have enough targets without starting a new war with every neutral they see?
Would it be possible, for an alliance to be truly neutral as ISS once was? I know that an alliance or corp cannot go without shooting things every once in a while, nor can they go without making friends with someone's enemy, therefore becoming guilty by association. But could they break out the NAPmobile and just be a purely defensive industrial corp in 0.0 with enough militant friends to insure their own safety? Sort of like Trust claimed to be(not saying they were or weren't neutral), but with more friends? Something like a neutral trade hub, almost NPClike, where the other alliances don't mind enemies docking there because it just keeps the fun pew pew action going due to the availability of ships outside of their own sovereign areas, and relieves some of the strain from their own logistics division. One where the alliance that controls the system doesn't get involved in any battles that take place in their system, except one's that threaten the sovereignty of their own system. I'd like to know how many people would shoot at them just because they were not blue, even though their record of neutrality were proven. I'd also like to know how many alliances would help them if violence came their way, just for the fact that the alliance would always be providing support for the PVP community.
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Joshua Foiritain
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.26 23:01:00 -
[2]
Claiming/controlling space takes a lot of effort, building and maintaining or defending infrastructure even more so. Random people coming in freeloading on your stuff and running whenever danger comes around the corner are very much disliked.
Then theres of course spies and alt chars doing logistics. -----
$Forum + $Bob + $Devs == $ForumPostCount+++++; |
Qolde
Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.26 23:25:00 -
[3]
Who dislikes the pew pew?
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Badhands
Gallente Badgator Ltd
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Posted - 2007.02.27 00:00:00 -
[4]
I believe Syndicate and Outer Ring are as close as it gets.
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Nhaz
Pyrrhus Sicarii
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Posted - 2007.02.27 04:46:00 -
[5]
whats to discuss?
If its not Blue. Shoot it. this isn't for emotional reasons. this is for practical reasons.
the best reason being pretty simple. No identification time required. no time wasted figuring out if the Non blue is hostile or not. its simple. _____________________________________________
It's NOT paranoia, If they REALLY ARE out to get you! |
Kovid
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.27 05:14:00 -
[6]
NBSI is a system of control for enclosurist territorialists. To think people can "own" space is silly. Space holds infinite resources that anyone can enjoy. And NBSI is used by groups who can not use all the space they occupy since they can't be everywhere at once. People with initiative and a little ability can operate in space that others would claim as their own. It's their own fault if they were not there first. The people who complain are often freeloaders who hunt or mine all day and balk at someone in "their" system and whine to their friends when they get blown up instead of taking responsibility for themselves.
There are NRDS, "Not Red, Don't Shoot", alliances out there. However the alliance I am in, The Star Fraction, does not claim any systems. And I don't think they ever will by the nature of the alliance dogma. There are other NRDS claiming alliances, even those that hold sovereignty but I can't speak for them since I don't know how well other people enforce their policies . I can tell you I treat NRDS very seriously.
If you allow a more lenient policy like NRDS and let people dock in 0.0 stations trade can flow outside of empire without convoys or carrier runs. Trade hubs in empire and low sec could be less important. 0.0 market prices would drop for alliances that did so. No longer would you have to pay 50-100k for a shuttle or something else stupid. Or just having a market stocked for that matter. The argument that neutral bring no benefit is countered by the market they bring to the area which is huge. Plus it brings people to you that you would never have met or shot.
And there are variations of NRDS. I have heard of NRDS claiming alliances who don't beleive in freespace. Apparently they will not shoot you as long as you are not using their resources. But this is hersey and I wil not vouch for this. Unfortunately NRDS is a next step of evolution. The fact we are not there yet is clear and is why it has not taken hold yet. But I will continue to fight for it and remove the memetics that contain NBSI.
---------------------------------- An informal Star Fraction FAQ | ---------------------------------- |
Anaximander Monk
Mandala Group
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Posted - 2007.02.27 05:19:00 -
[7]
Neutrality and Pacifism are not necessarily synonymous. You could even consider roving pirates without political affiliation as 'neutral'.
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The Comatorium
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Posted - 2007.02.27 05:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kovid NBSI is a system of control for enclosurist territorialists. To think people can "own" space is silly. Space holds infinite resources that anyone can enjoy.
NBSI is not only about controlling Space. Knowing your foe is far from a luxe and if Neutral passes by and get popped... well its too bad.
Whoever have lived in 0.0 know the menace of Neutrals or Red spots in Local. in NPC space you cannot know who is there for dancing or just passes by. So you shoot and you guess after that.
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Qolde
Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.27 06:21:00 -
[9]
Okay, Kovid is saying exactly what I'm thinking. The reason to not always shoot every neutral is simple. For dimplomacy and trade. I know there are certain systems that must be protected from neutrals and hostiles and maybe even some blues at all costs, but what I'm saying is like, that's the military zone of your claimed space, protected on all sides by your military. But at the edge of your claimed space, why not have a market outpost where you don't shoot neutrals, unless you know they are a threat. Of course it's a little risky, but think of the rewards. Your industrial sector would go NUTS, if you are close enough to empire to bring traders from empire to spend all their iskies in your market, as well as fulfill those insane buy orders, and the lacking named items market in your region. I know im not the only person who notices that no matter where you live, if you want some named items of another race than that of the pirates you're fighting, you're pretty much SOL. The competition aspect of this place has always been more than just ship versus ship combat. But it seems like the industry and trade sector is still stuck in empire. I know right now may not be the time for so much extra friendly trade with this Royal Rumble going on between so many factions, but even so, trade between even enemies would do nothing but boost both parties equally.
Of course my idea of a neutral alliance that let neutrals dock at the station would eventually turn into a regular alliance with blue's and red's, but the difference would be that most neutrals would be treated as blue until further notice. I'm not sayin oh, go park your ship in an asteroid belt and try to chat with a guy from a corp called PWNALLMINERZZZ, I'm saying if you see a neutral in local, chat with him and find out why he's there, check the bio, corp, and alliance description. If it looks like he could just be visiting your region for trade purposes or exploring, let it slide. I'm saying, why is the only regular market style trade that happens in 0.0 from one alliance member to another member of the same alliance? Why are only designated diplomats the only people in an alliance charged with keeping the peace? Shouldn't it be everyone's responsibility?
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Hardin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.27 09:45:00 -
[10]
The CVA does not operate NBSI in its space.
Nor does Ushra'khan and I also believe IAC have an NRDS policy.
The CVA allows neutrals to enter its space and hunt Sansha's and mine to their hearts content.
We do restrict the construction of POS for strategic reasons, although neutrals who have been around long enough and have established a good reputation with us can be granted POS rights.
We do not charge rent to neutrals who use our space.
We give everyone entering our area the benefit of the doubt. This occasionally can be painful when someone proves unworthy and goes on a rampage however in 90% of cases neutrals entering Amarrian 0.0 tend to be responsible citizens looking to earn some ISK.
Those who do transgress our no piracy rules get added to our KOS list forever. Their only way off is if they make an apology and pay compensation.
Managing NRDS is not easy, it is certainly not a policy for the lazy. It takes effort to manage a proper KOS list and disseminate details not only to your own alliance but to other friends and trustworthy neutrals in your region.
However NRDS does have some unique benefits:
1) Intel gathering. Neutrals using our space often provide us with useful forewarning on enemy incursions. This is not 100% reliable and the information is sometimes sketchy at best but in many cases it allows us to either gather a fleet to counter the threat - or get safe - depending on the size of the incoming).
2) Economics. Lots of neutrals living in your space creates a market. If you are the established alliance in the area it is highly likely that your industrialists will be well positioned to supply the needs of local neutrals.
3) Defence. You can never rely on neutrals to defend your space for you - indeed you cannot even rely on their gratitude - however over time some neutrals who live in your space will develop such a stake in the area that it is in their interest to defend against piratical incursions. This may be in the form of intel (as listed above) but often the more PvP focused neutrals will actively help if you are willing to cultivate relations with them. This leads on to the next benefit.
4) Recruitment. If you have a lot of neutrals living in your area you do over time get to know who are worthy and who are just parasites living off your protection. You will over time get to know who the 'worthy' are - who you can rely on in a fight, who you can rely on to provide solid intel, who you can rely on to take the initiative and mount anti-piracy operations of their own! The 'worthy' tend to make good recruits. Why recruit a corporation that you have little hard knowledge of when you can recruit corporations that have a track record.
The CVA never recruits any corporations which have not lived in our space and contributed to its defence for at least six months often more - and as a result we know our corporations are solid and wont quit when the **** hits the fan. It also means they (generally) understand our ethos and they way we operate before they join...
In my own opinion NBSI is a policy for the lazy. It is possible to operate NRDS if you are willing to put the effort in and are willing to put up with the occasional ****s who simply exploit your protection and hospitality... I believe the benefits outweigh the disadvantages...
Of course we also have our own roleplay reasons in extending Amarrian law and order to 0.0...
------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607
AMARR VICTOR |
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Tobiron
Cohortes Vigilum Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.27 11:43:00 -
[11]
Speaking as a previously neutral status type, I can confirm that having an open skies policy is a far more beneficial in the long run. Originally I found Providence by accident while trying to find my long lost half sister who I share an Amarr father with. Once I realised that I could enjoy the benefits of 0.0 Space with out the fear of being fried by the locals I started to invest in the area, setting up trade agreements and generally settling down. Over time things have evolved and I am now very proud to be a member of CVA. In my time in the region we have had many instances where hostile forces make concerted efforts to pirate or be a general pain in the back side. There have also been elements of subterfuge and espionage that have led to conflict in the area. However, on the whole, things work because of the inclusion of neutral/blue parties that have a vested interest in the area.
If you want to be totally selfish you can say that making a little margin out of a massive open market is much better than a large margin out of a closed small one. Also, I really donĘt think that having NBSI really benefits security because if you have something someone wants badly, they will find a way to get Intel with out resorting to NPC corp shuttles.
By the way, if you think that NRDS means less pew pew then you are very wrong. It just means that you will be up against faction fitted tech II ships rather than shuttles.
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.02.27 13:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hardin
The CVA never recruits any corporations which have not lived in our space and contributed to its defence for at least six months often more - and as a result we know our corporations are solid and wont quit when the **** hits the fan. It also means they (generally) understand our ethos and they way we operate before they join...
Although not directly NBSI related, I like this part. _______ I came, I read, I lol'ed. |
Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.02.27 15:22:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 27/02/2007 15:18:50
From the perspective of low sec as opposed to 0.0, my alliance employs Not Red Don't Shoot.
If you have pirate written all over your bio, you get set to red very fast, but shooting people just because you don't know who they are doesn't make you any friends, especially if those people might be your new neighbours that you just don't know yet
Also living in the south we have a BBAI (big alliance avoid it) policy, so get shot by BoB or FIX and best to just leave it at that and call it an unfortunate loss. But mostly they don't care for locals from what i can see anyway so engagements are rare
Khaldari KPA Recruiting |
Kali Ananda
Minmatar Deep Space Consortium Gods of Night and Day
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Posted - 2007.02.27 17:14:00 -
[14]
I welcome the opertunity to kill and shoot anyone, anywhere. Kali Ananda DPSC Director
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The Comatorium
Unscoped Myriad Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.27 18:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kali Ananda I welcome the opertunity to kill and shoot anyone, anywhere.
HOO RAH! If we dont do that itd be as stupid as bringin concord out of empire.
Out there it works on the Predator-Prey rule, the jungle laws.
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Kovid
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.27 19:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tobiron By the way, if you think that NRDS means less pew pew then you are very wrong. It just means that you will be up against faction fitted tech II ships rather than shuttles.
Despite the numbers of targets NBSI leads to weakness in some people.
---------------------------------- An informal Star Fraction FAQ | ---------------------------------- |
Qolde
Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.28 00:27:00 -
[17]
I think it's a true sign of power to be able to not even worry about neutrals in your system. In my opinion, it's like NBSI is code red, Defcon 1, when the **** is hitting the fan. Of course, right now theres always someone at least farting in your general direction if you live in 0.0.
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG
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Posted - 2007.02.28 00:53:00 -
[18]
NBSI or NRDS.
The reasons behind NBSI are quite clear. Clear and simple rules of engagement help your pilots in determining wether the encountered pilot is a potential threat, scout or perhaps helping some cap ships cyno in. On a further note, quite a few alliances/corps practice NBSI in all of 0.0, not just the space they claim sovereignity over.
NRDS. Will propably help trade and will bring more residents to the given area. However, it is rather problematic due to it enabling neutral scouts mapping an area ready for an ivading force. Probing defences etc. And most directors/ceos with diplomatic experience usually know who to contact for standings to get friendly access to pretty much any given area. Thus, I belive the balance of the risk profit ratio hangs heavily in favour of the NBSI policies.
___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Dirf Olep
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Posted - 2007.02.28 03:03:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hardin The CVA does not operate NBSI in its space.
(Most of reply is not quoted due to text limit)
I agree with the above, and not just because I live in their space. ^_^
Ratting is a way of life for me, and because of all the neutral traffic selling makes me alot of money. And what doesn't sell is reprocessed and sold for even more profit. Not to mention that a good amount of the neutrals take up arms to help, especially when in the same system.
On a downside though it's a real pain in the but to feel safe with so many neutrals. You always have to read bios, and ask intel on peoples bios that are lacking. Or if there corp name sounds hostile. Although 10 times out of 10 a hostile who is close enough to see you is already locking or running. (As in the same belt or gate) I've got a few killmails myself from BOB and random pirates trying to do there thing.
Yes, the NRDS policy is abit tedious. But in the end, I think you really do gain more from it. Besides... If you really want some PvP there is almost the entire rest of the game with 0.0 NBSI policy. Sooooo, if there not blue ^_^ you better darn well be shootin, lol.
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Kovid
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.28 04:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Laboratus NBSI or NRDS.
The reasons behind NBSI are quite clear. Clear and simple rules of engagement help your pilots in determining wether the encountered pilot is a potential threat, scout or perhaps helping some cap ships cyno in. On a further note, quite a few alliances/corps practice NBSI in all of 0.0, not just the space they claim sovereignity over.
NRDS. Will propably help trade and will bring more residents to the given area. However, it is rather problematic due to it enabling neutral scouts mapping an area ready for an ivading force. Probing defences etc. And most directors/ceos with diplomatic experience usually know who to contact for standings to get friendly access to pretty much any given area. Thus, I belive the balance of the risk profit ratio hangs heavily in favour of the NBSI policies.
Your risk profit ratio does not include spies in alliances. This is a plain and simple fact of every alliance of size greater than one. Every major alliance fears the shadowy spy in their ranks and can do very little to nothing about them. They force them to treat their masses different, limit information among its own members and so one. This comes to the point of paranoia where operations like freighter convoys are announced the day of the operation and lack support because no one knew about it. NBSI didn't matter in the convoy attack because by the time they knew there was a "not blue" it was too late for the ambush as ships appeared in space en masse suddenly.
This is one case and there are many more. NRDS keeps you on your toes. If you see a neutral, you make a contingency plan on the spot. And yes you can have spies in NRDS alliances. But NBSI does not stop mapping out of areas or leaking of intelligence. It does not stop en masse ambushes. Probing defences can be seen in NRDS alliances when people spot large numbers of ships traveling. It's not like an NRDS alliance can't communicate to each other. It's not like they can't see 5-10 ships that are neutral suddenly warp into system by system all belonging to the same alliance or corp. They stick out just like in NBSI if you set your standings.
The balance of risk vs profit hangs heavily in favor of NRDS. New things are frightening to try for some.
It's not like it's never been done as people have said here. So the proof is there.
But memetics are burned into humanity, scaring people into thinking freespace and NRDS is bad.
---------------------------------- An informal Star Fraction FAQ | ---------------------------------- |
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Plan Neun
Caldari Ganja Unlimited CORE.
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Posted - 2007.02.28 09:37:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Plan Neun on 28/02/2007 09:34:37
Originally by: Qolde In 0.0, I understand the emotional reason for an NBSI policy, and in some cases, I endorse it. If you see a known pirate corp in local, shoot at them. If you see a neutral battleship warp into your belt, prepare your guns. If a neutral person is in your outpost system, blow them the hell up. If ANYONE in a NPC corp is in 0.0, by all means, send them back to Ryddinjorn.
But, if some random neutral that you have no prior engagement with shows up in a random system in 0.0, do you have to shoot them? Is there no room for diplomacy? No chat in local to get a little info on their current goals? What if you have a common enemy? Sure, you could loot their hauler on general purposes just because you can, and they might have some nice loot. But would it not be wiser to talk them into sharing their loot with you, so that you both may grow? Does not every single current alliance have enough targets without starting a new war with every neutral they see?
Would it be possible, for an alliance to be truly neutral as ISS once was? I know that an alliance or corp cannot go without shooting things every once in a while, nor can they go without making friends with someone's enemy, therefore becoming guilty by association. But could they break out the NAPmobile and just be a purely defensive industrial corp in 0.0 with enough militant friends to insure their own safety? Sort of like Trust claimed to be(not saying they were or weren't neutral), but with more friends? Something like a neutral trade hub, almost NPClike, where the other alliances don't mind enemies docking there because it just keeps the fun pew pew action going due to the availability of ships outside of their own sovereign areas, and relieves some of the strain from their own logistics division. One where the alliance that controls the system doesn't get involved in any battles that take place in their system, except one's that threaten the sovereignty of their own system. I'd like to know how many people would shoot at them just because they were not blue, even though their record of neutrality were proven. I'd also like to know how many alliances would help them if violence came their way, just for the fact that the alliance would always be providing support for the *snip* community.
Please remember that CAS is an In-Character forum - Karass Sayfo
Ganja Unlimited follow the NBSI rules strictly in the areas where we have commitments. In other areas we use common sence, so no we dont shoot at everyone and everything if not agroed. The reason why we do this has something to do with our corpname and our image. We dont find it natural that a corp with a corpname like ours behave exeptional agressive towards neutrals.
Plan Neun |
mamolian
Vortex. Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.28 22:12:00 -
[22]
Edited by: mamolian on 28/02/2007 22:08:35 After practicing NBSI and NRDS, Ideally I prefer the NDRS approach.. although trying to keep the more PVP styled players entertained, and focused on abiding by NDRS policy.. is often more trouble than its worth.. Let em shoot each other, and let the cloning vats sort it out.
-------------------------------
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Kovid
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.03.01 01:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: mamolian Edited by: mamolian on 28/02/2007 22:08:35 After practicing NBSI and NRDS, Ideally I prefer the NDRS approach.. although trying to keep the more PVP styled players entertained, and focused on abiding by NDRS policy.. is often more trouble than its worth.. Let em shoot each other, and let the cloning vats sort it out.
PVP styled players?
Well NRDS can be as hostile as the corporation that sets the standings wants it to be. And then there are CONCORD sanctioned wars. The thing is with so many NBSI people shooting NRDS minorities, it gives NRDS practically the same opportunities as NBSI. The thing is with NRDS the people who deserve to get shot, get shot.
---------------------------------- An informal Star Fraction FAQ | ---------------------------------- |
Qolde
Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.01 04:02:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Plan Neun
Ganja Unlimited Plan Neun
Awesome. Why do you think I'm wearing shades?
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Jereth Ravyn
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.02 10:33:00 -
[25]
NRDS only really works when hostiles get reported accurately and standings are set quickly. On an alliance-wide scale, this is very difficult to manage, and as was stated before, NBSI is a much quicker and simpler form of threat identification.
Personally, I feel that ISS's former NRDS policy was the catalyst for the chain of events that have led us to the current state of affairs. Not to bore you all with ISS history or do any chest thumping, but I beleive all NRDS alliances can learn something from studying the ISS.
Sadly, NBSI will be the best policy until the political climate of EVE changes.
...so in summary: if you dont like pew pew pew, stay out of 0.0, and if that bothers you... go play WoW or something
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Nautark Mniachei
The Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2007.03.02 14:21:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jereth Ravyn
Sadly, NBSI will be the best policy until the political climate of EVE changes.
And how do you expect the political climate to change if you stick to NBSI?
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tost
Viper Squad Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.03.02 14:36:00 -
[27]
K.A.O.S 4tw
Kill All On Sight !
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Kovid
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.03.02 16:51:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jereth Ravyn NRDS only really works when hostiles get reported accurately and standings are set quickly. On an alliance-wide scale, this is very difficult to manage, and as was stated before, NBSI is a much quicker and simpler form of threat identification.
Personally, I feel that ISS's former NRDS policy was the catalyst for the chain of events that have led us to the current state of affairs. Not to bore you all with ISS history or do any chest thumping, but I beleive all NRDS alliances can learn something from studying the ISS.
Sadly, NBSI will be the best policy until the political climate of EVE changes.
...so in summary: if you dont like pew pew pew, stay out of 0.0, and if that bothers you... go play WoW or something
I value the opinion of ISS people for their run at neutrality, but I think there has always been something amongst them that has caused problems. They always have seemed to have problems with their system as people have always claimed for quite a long time. Without being a part of them I really can't say what it could be or if it was speculation and purely outside forces blaming them incorrectly.
But I have run NRDS personally in 0.0 and empire for a couple months only after living in 0.0 NBSI for a long time. I have had no trouble with the policy. In those two months in the busy areas of empire I lost one ship due to a neutral and me falling asleep at the wheel in empire. That alliance was then set to red and have paid the price many times over for their hostility. It's a simple process. In empire most people are just going about their business getting one place to another. In 0.0 I assume anyone neutral could be hostile and place myself in a situation I can handle. Plenty of times I have been tanked along with my mates that we did not shoot them in 0.0 when we had the upper hand. They were suprised we didn't. It's simple. You are neutral or not red, I don't shoot.
NBSI and NRDS you CAN assume neutrals are hostile temporarly. NRDS just makes you not fire on them until they confirm they actually are. I've been suprised once by NRDS and lost a frigate while exploring.
Play WoW???
---------------------------------- An informal Star Fraction FAQ | ---------------------------------- |
The Yzzerman
Mortis Angelus Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.02 17:00:00 -
[29]
I can confirm that providence is a great are to hunt in And the loot is good aswell Cva people are nice and friendly!
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Jereth Ravyn
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.03 00:30:00 -
[30]
I guess really the point I am trying to make is that both NBSI and NRDS can work... NBSI relies on quickly setting friends to blue, and NRDS relies on quickly setting hostiles to red. If it takes a corp/alliance too long to manage their standings, then it won't matter if they use NBSI/NRDS... its all the same really, except that in that scenario, the NRDS organization might lose some ships, and the NBSI organization might kill some "innocent" ships.
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Horatio Nately
Caldari 808 Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.03.03 18:02:00 -
[31]
*snip* for OOC - Karass Sayfo ---------------------------------------
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Qolde
Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.04 06:27:00 -
[32]
Besides pirate entities, who would pick a fight with a purely neutral alliance in 0.0?
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Jereth Ravyn
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.04 08:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Qolde Besides pirate entities, who would pick a fight with a purely neutral alliance in 0.0?
The tricky part of that question is the term "purely neutral". NRDS is in no stretch of the imagination "purely neutral". I would argue that there is no such thing as a purely neutral alliance... especially one in 0.0 space. And there are plenty of non-pirate entities that would pick a fight with even semi-neutral alliances. As a matter of fact, there have been other semi-neutral alliances (NRDS) that have started major POS wars against other semi-neutral alliances... I don't want to go off on a tangent, but suffice it to say that the answer to your question is "lots of people".
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Graalum
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.03.05 02:18:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Plutoinum
Originally by: Hardin
The CVA never recruits any corporations which have not lived in our space and contributed to its defence for at least six months often more - and as a result we know our corporations are solid and wont quit when the **** hits the fan. It also means they (generally) understand our ethos and they way we operate before they join...
Although not directly NBSI related, I like this part.
qft
Originally by: Qolde Besides pirate entities, who would pick a fight with a purely neutral alliance in 0.0?
Bored people?
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Rabbitual Ferrier
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Posted - 2007.03.05 14:52:00 -
[35]
Originally by: The Comatorium
Originally by: Kali Ananda I welcome the opertunity to kill and shoot anyone, anywhere.
HOO RAH! If we dont do that itd be as stupid as bringin concord out of empire.
Out there it works on the Predator-Prey rule, the jungle laws.
Er that would be the hunt for a pack, single out the easy prey (young, weak, old) and then hope to catch them, before sleeping it off under a tree for a couple of days, and then repeat until Breeding time?
Basically NBSI is essentially 'Privateering' for 0.0 space. It keeps the PVP mentality happy and defence is assured. Its quite a simplistic approch to the complex idea of ruling 'space'.
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Drasery
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Posted - 2007.03.05 22:37:00 -
[36]
NBSI is the only pratical approach to deal with the scumbags of EVE. Law abiding citizens should stay in law abiding places or join up with a company that can provide them access to 0.0. Most of us have paid dearly for ability to tap into the riches of deepspace. If someone starts a convo with me i'm not a pod of steal i'll talk and if they seem geinune probably not attack unless it's part of our soveirgn protected space. I don't want to let them go just to find out they killed a compatriot of mine latter. In the words of Mother from that great classic movie "Full Metal Jacket", "Better Him then me!" Fly safe
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Cythrawl
Caldari Central Defiance
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Posted - 2007.03.06 18:03:00 -
[37]
Neutrality and NBSI are always going to be a touchy subject.
Central Defiance for instance believes in the use of NBSI. But at the same time we respect the neutrality of other alliances, such as Ushra'Khan and Sylph Alliance, who we've flown for at one time or another. In fact, we demand it of our pilots to follow the rules of their space when there out of said respect.
The bit people start nagging at is when you look at the majority of our members, we live in low-sec empire space. That means when we go off and blow up hostiles and potential threats, we start loosing sec status. Mine's in the dump right now. That gives us those nice flashing bars when you run into us in local. Flashing bars tend to make everyone think only one thing, pirate.
Most people do yell 'Pirates!'(we prefer ninjas) and go screaming away from us. Granted, they're allowed that reaction, and if they're not blue it's probably a smart thing, but those who are a member of our list of friends know that we provide a hard-line form of stability and security for those who are interested in safe low-sec livelihoods. We do dirty work to keep our friends safe, but we're not just indiscriminate roving killers.
Another thing is, while certain alliances run a neutral policy, they have concessions such as starter corporation pilots with no prior job history are kill on sight. This is understandable in an age when spies invade your space constantly to give recon to hostile pilots.
This doesn't make the alliance a liar about their neutrality, but announces that they're not going to allow foolishness from possibly neutral, but most likely hostile or ill-intending, targets entering into their space.
True neutrality is an illusion and anyone thinking that you can allow everyone do their own will in a place you want to call home is asking to be run over rough-trodden by those with the intent to make good off those weaker than themselves.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=
DEFY Killboard
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Silvestri
FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.03.06 21:45:00 -
[38]
It's tricky right now with the whole war going on. You don't know if a neutral noob warping in is a spy for an oncoming fleet. So you get rid of it. Right now IAC is NBSI for the Catch region. Other then that we're normally NRDS. The way we've been keeping tab on neutrals is this. IF you are in a strictly noob corp...we check your history...if your a noob you die. Noobs have no reason to be in 0.0. Play in empire and train....get money..you need it in 0.0. If you're a neutral alliance or corp you pass when we are NRDS. There has been some issues as of late. But war is war...I agree to both NRDS and NBSI. It's situational ya know? If you can't survive in 0.0 by any means necessary...don't go... maybe talk in local...
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Rohab
Aegis Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.03.08 03:09:00 -
[39]
communists vs capitalists? socialists or nationalists...
For me the only way is NBSI. I hate alts anyway.
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Beowulf scot
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Posted - 2007.03.12 13:15:00 -
[40]
IAC allow me to npc in the region and im greatfull for them allowing me to do that. If i am npcing in IAC space and someone attacks an IAC member in my system i always go to there aid no matter what standings i have with the person attacking them. I got drunk and ended up in Venal and atempted to do the same thing but got my arse handed to me on a plate. "60 jumps after a bottle of bourban but it seemed a good idea at the time".
I think nbsi is a good thing but if someone jumps in and sits on a gate and asks permission to carry on and do some npcing then they should be given a chance.
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TaldarianII
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Posted - 2007.03.13 10:04:00 -
[41]
Edited by: TaldarianII on 13/03/2007 10:02:15 Well, the problem with neutral guys are that they could be comming by peacefully. Or they could be planting an enemy cyno for invasion, so NBSI here. No point in risking a POS because of some random neutral guy, if he should be a scouting alt then losing a shuttle/pod wouldn't be much of a loss anyway right? .
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Thomas Maleficus
Caldari all professions
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Posted - 2007.03.13 15:38:00 -
[42]
There are problems no matter how you look at it. NBSI means potentially sparking war, or losing a potentially good ally. NRDS leaves you vulnerable to attack. I personally would like to see a situation (not likely to happen) wherein all alliances post a channel to contact on a can at their borders so people can notify the alliance they are entering. May take some resources and a commitment to keep somone on channel to allow or disallow entry. At least if people are warned, now entering NBSI, or no if you come in here we'll shoot to kill, may solve some of the hard feelings. Then again, it's 0.0, people ought to know better going in, it's not empire out there.
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Finlander09
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Posted - 2007.03.14 04:38:00 -
[43]
NBSI is piracy. piracy is BAD
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Qolde
Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.14 17:35:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Thomas Maleficus NBSI means potentially sparking war, or losing a potentially good ally.
I've seen this happen at least twice.
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Cybarite
Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2007.03.15 19:36:00 -
[45]
I don't have a huge amount of experience with 0.0, or at all for that matter, but I have seen over the last month that an NRDS policy can be harmful. I've lived in ED's 0.0 territory for about a month, so far I have yet to see a single nuetral who wasn't (A) A macrominer (B) An altscout (C) taking SS's of our PoS's or (D) a ganker looking for kills. We lose ships every so often because people don't hit safespots as soon as nuetrals show up in local, at least once a day a fleet of nuetrals shows up looking for trouble, it's not like we're ebil pirates or anything, but experience is a harsh teacher and we're learning to shoot first ask questions later.
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Calebes
Gallente The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.15 23:59:00 -
[46]
Let me bring philosophy and ethics back into this discussion, instead of all this daily-life-routine conversation.
How do I see the difference between NRDS and NBSI? Quite simple: NRDS is 'innocent until proven otherwise', whereas NBSI is very simply 'quilty until proven otherwise'.
Ponder this, and have a fun day.
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Aewaytor
Mortis Angelus
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Posted - 2007.03.16 01:30:00 -
[47]
Originally by: mamolian
After practicing NBSI and NRDS, Ideally I prefer the NDRS approach.. although trying to keep the players entertained, and focused on abiding by NDRS policy.. is often more trouble than its worth.. Let em shoot each other, and let the cloning vats sort it out.
Good post.
When one of the main factors in going down to 0.0 is the fighting, a NRDS policy gets boring very quickly. Hell, even NBSI gets tiresome as it means having to jump a lot further afield to get some targets.
Anyone who operates a NRDS policy must commended for their discipline. Unfortunately, it's not something I have
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Oli4Oli4
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.03.16 07:07:00 -
[48]
Originally by: tost K.A.O.S 4tw
KILL KILL KILL
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Johlie
Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.03.16 17:52:00 -
[49]
In 0.0 I assume every nuetral not in a shuttle or nub frig hostile. If they dont attack me, then thats all well and good. However nine times out of ten they are hostile, and thats why I practice an NBSI policy.
I like these acronyms, KAOS is fitting for kill all on sight, as is NRDS for not red dont shoot it :P.
-------------------------
-=If I win I can't be stopped! If I lose I shall be dead.=- |
Vexed Angel
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Posted - 2007.04.19 18:52:00 -
[50]
I have recently started traveling to 0.0 to wet my feet. Being in a non allied corp whos base is in empire makes for a difficult journey through 0.0. From the news you would think that bob are "the bad guys" yet with all you folks practicing NBSI you have set yourself as the dark force. The basic problem is that once an alliance squad engages me I have no choice but to defend myself which in turn puts me to a red status for the rest of the alliance. I then never had the chance to work any sort of diplomacy and because of 2 pilots have lost standing with hundreds in return. So as it is I have had to run from a few engagements just to eliminate the possibility of being hunted by larger forces. So in the end apologize in local for the engagement but you did shoot first and I was tanking 3 BS's so I wouldnt consider myself a threat at that time... What this amounts to is people want to fluff their killboards, it really hasn't got alot to do with security in those cases.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.20 12:23:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Thomas Maleficus NBSI means potentially sparking war.
You say it like sparking a war is a bad thing. Wars are good for everyone except the ones who lose it (and depending on how resounding the loss it might even be good for them). ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Nyabinghi
Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.04.20 14:53:00 -
[52]
I suppose it all comes down to the local Alliances preferences. Some are more possessive of their space than others, some are more at risk of losing their space to other Alliances. Basically the onus is on the traveler to make an effort to let the controlling Alliance know he/she is not a threat (I recommend fresh baked banana bread). Be sure at the very least the minute an Alliance member spots you in local an investigation has been started to find out who you are and whether or not to shoot you.
***
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BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.22 12:29:00 -
[53]
As a relatively new recruit to Agony Unleashed, I am not able to make an official comment on behalf of my corporation and alliance. However, I can speak for myself, and I believe that my attitudes are consistent with Agony's guiding philosophy.
The ancient peoples of Earth practiced what they called 'martial arts', as eloquently described in Sun Tzu's The Art of War. Musashi captured the spirituality of the warrior in his Book of Five Rings, while Clausewitz's insights in On War remain essential for anyone who wishes to truly understand how to win at the strategic level. Those of us who join Agony Unleashed understand, on some level at least, that war is an Art.
Art, by its very nature, is something that everybody wants to share. And so Agony pilots share their art in two ways. The first way in which we share our art is through our training academy - and by sharing it we are enriched; as the ancient Romans said "He who teaches, learns." The second way in which we share our art is by performing it.
As ours is a spontaneous performance art, we practice neither NBSI nor NRDS. Rather, are rules of engagement are "NASI" - "Not Agony Shoot It". As with all rules of engagement, mistakes are made from time to time. Fortunately, the number of Agony ships lost due to these errors remains at acceptable levels.
I believe that peaceful trade has a very important place in our society. That very important place is known as 'highsec'. I salute Qolde and Guardian Heroes Inc for their bold vision to increase trade in 0.0. As with all other bold visionaries, I encourage them to bring along a suitably prepared and equipped escort.
Come meet me in 0.0 and we can make beautiful art together
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Audri Fisher
Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.04.22 21:26:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Calebes Let me bring philosophy and ethics back into this discussion, instead of all this daily-life-routine conversation.
How do I see the difference between NRDS and NBSI? Quite simple: NRDS is 'innocent until proven otherwise', whereas NBSI is very simply 'quilty until proven otherwise'.
Ponder this, and have a fun day.
Very nice way to put it.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.04.22 21:30:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Audri Fisher on 22/04/2007 21:27:15
Originally by: Vexed Angel I have recently started traveling to 0.0 to wet my feet. Being in a non allied corp who's base is in empire makes for a difficult journey through 0.0. From the news you would think that bob are "the bad guys" yet with all you folks practicing NBSI you have set yourself as the dark force. The basic problem is that once an alliance squad engages me I have no choice but to defend myself which in turn puts me to a red status for the rest of the alliance. I then never had the chance to work any sort of diplomacy and because of 2 pilots have lost standing with hundreds in return. So as it is I have had to run from a few engagements just to eliminate the possibility of being hunted by larger forces. So in the end apologize in local for the engagement but you did shoot first and I was tanking 3 BS's so I wouldn't consider myself a threat at that time... What this amounts to is people want to fluff their killboards, it really hasn't got alot to do with security in those cases.
That is because we can't verify that you aren't allied with BoB. It is paranoia true, but as history has shown us, it is justified paranoia. The is an ancient expression for this, "the people who have gone before you have ****** it up for everyone else" about the killboard padding remark, Fix pads my killboard enough w/o you TYVM
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Timmeh 2000
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.04.23 10:50:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Timmeh 2000 on 23/04/2007 10:51:06 Transmission intercepted and cleaned of the madmen interruptions. For questions, get in touch with our staff in Yulai or send us a transmission to [email protected]
This is an In Character role-playing forum - please remember to stay in character at all times. Please see the links in my signature for tips on roleplaying, and more importantly - the rules for this forum.
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Ansuru Starlancer
The Phoenix Rising
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Posted - 2007.04.28 20:28:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Ansuru Starlancer on 28/04/2007 20:30:02
If you don't wish to get shot, contact a diplomat and get standings set before you go nosing around someone's space. It's that simple.
If we don't know who you are, for all we know you're an alt spy for an enemy, or you're scouting for an incoming attack fleet from a new enemy. In New Eden, if enemies aren't destroyed the moment you spot them, they go around blowing your stuff up. I'd rather cause the occasional true neutral to lose a few hours' work than be ganked by a swarm of reds because I ignored a faux-neutral in local who was acting as a spotter for them.
If a few non-hostile neutrals get caught in the crossfire, well, that's war. If a friendly alt-scout gets popped...he should have had standings fixed before he came in. CCP could probably make it a bit easier to get standings set, but that still doesn't change the reality of the situation.
Let me put it in a different context.
Say you're leading a Marine patrol squad in Iraq and you come across someone you don't know, someone who has no identification, and they're poking around the perimiter of an area you're supposed to be securing so your buddies can sleep safe.
Let's also say they have a very mean looking AK47 and a large bag of something on their back...you don't know what that something might be. It could be food they're hoping to trade with the rich foreigners...or it could be a sack full of plastique bricks. The weapon could just be for self-defense in a nation gone lawless, or it could be intended to harm that secret "friend" of yours over in squad 4.
You might not shoot him right away, depending on the surrounding tactical situation...but you certainly point your weapon at him and tell him to freeze and get his bloody hands in the air (consider this equivilant to lock, scram, web in Eve).
Now, assuming he doesn't jump around and start firing at you (most people in Eve will do just that!), you still have a standoff, with the potential for enemies to be creeping up on you every second you delay.
In Iraq, you have the option of closing, disarming, and hauling him off to detention while you find out what he was up to.
In Eve, if you can't satisfy yourself of his friendly intent immediately (you've done this long before warping in on top of him, thanks to the ability to check corporate affiliations and ask if anyone knows he's friendly), you have nothing to gain by letting him pass, and potentially everything to lose by delaying while the enemy fleet gets closer. So you skip all the intervening gibberish and just blow him away as soon as you have him locked.
You want to see NRDS become more common?
Get CCP to allow the rapid taking of prisoners...you send a cargo drone full of armed Marines across to the target ship, the pilot and crew are detained (the pilot must click [Yes] on a Surrender? dialog window), the ship is flown by them to the nearest friendly starbase/station, its assets are placed under alliance control, and the pilot has a real opportunity to prove his affiliations.
If it turns out that he's friendly, he can be given his things back (or not, if he strayed into a Pirate Alliance's space...but that's a risk of doing business in deep space!).
If he's not friendly...well, rather than give him a jump clone in your station, you might as well send him to a brand new body without any of the built-up aches and pains or fancy expensive implants of this one.
The end :)
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Oli4Oli4
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.04.29 23:36:00 -
[58]
Originally by: tost K.A.O.S 4tw
Kill All On Sight !
KILL KILLL KILLLLLLLL
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Adeptus mecanicus
The Flaming Sideburn's Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.04.30 11:34:00 -
[59]
well it's hard to open a dialoge with a neutral in your space while killing him coz you want to kill him b4 his friends show up or he manage to sneak away. regarding bubble camps well.....you have 30 sec to make your case tbh i support nbsi coz then you stake your claim by force and clean out the area, and anyone that enters do it at their own risk. NRDS seems not to work to well since i think IAC tried it and now have to have a NBSI purge of their area due to piracy and infiltration.
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Pezzle
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.30 18:02:00 -
[60]
NRDS works just fine. Added risks, rewards and responsibility.
CVA maintains NRDS and will continue to do so in the face of meatsacks, clone jacks and other forms of spies.
IAC policy has been reported many times as NRDS. They have occassional periods of NBSI in their space for their own reasons.
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Ansuru Starlancer
The Phoenix Rising Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.05.04 19:59:00 -
[61]
I just find it amusing when people wax profane about NBSI and evil "enclosurist territorialists."
Any nation on earth would object, and object forecefully if unauthorized military forces crossed their border and started rooting around, hauling resources off to who-knows-where and setting up shop.
As I said, you want in, talk to a diplomat beforehand and get standings set. If you have to pay a fee for those standings, do so. Otherwise, on your own head it be.
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Jack Forge
Gallente Prox XII Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.14 21:18:00 -
[62]
agree __________________________________________________ Stupid is as stupid does... |
Kabajashi San
Minmatar Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.05.14 22:13:00 -
[63]
I would like to add another point to the discussion which in general is quite interesting. The real question as I see it is what you want to do with the space you claim your own. If you want it to generate income from production and trade, to profit from it in terms of connections to possible allies and new recruits then clearly NRDS is your way to go. If you just want to hold it to rat or mine in peace or just to claim it for the purpose of claiming it, then NBSI is your way. Either way is understandable but from my personal opinion as an alliance you come out better with the first, as an individual pilot you may come out better with the latter.
Also many alliances use mixes of both systems like IAC connected to strategic terms of the individual area or UK connected to RP reasons of the individual pilot.
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Gaius Sejanus
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.05.15 22:26:00 -
[64]
Quote: If ANYONE in a NPC corp is in 0.0, by all means, send them back to Ryddinjorn.
This is the one that I find the most laughable. The implication being that NPC corporation members are somehow intrinsically more dangerous than others, and that they have no accountability.
The exact same thing can be said for anyone else. No pod pilot is ever truly accountable to anyone else. No pod pilot is more or less dangerous than another. Their corporate affiliation has no effect on this (and come to that, how hard would it really be to whip up a 1-pilot corporation just to lose the NPC corp name? A million isk doesn't even qualify as pocket lint money).
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Vistoxia Marigos
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Posted - 2007.05.17 04:44:00 -
[65]
Neutrality? There is not much of it in this world, who is truly neutral? IIS I would not call neutral, certainly they maintained a fairly simple stance to diplomacy, if you shoot us we'll shoot you, and fair enough I say, but not neutral.
These "NPC" corps, mostly educational institutions as I under stand the term, try to maintain neutrality, I am not aware of any wars ever being waged (officially at least) against them, they appear to try to maintain neutrality, but they are still shot at. Other than that, I know of no-one neutral, every corporation has it's grievances, rightly or wrongly.
NBSI, is simply the easy way out of diplomacy, they have stated we'll shoot first, and ask questions later, if at all.
NRDS, this does not mean you're safe if they don't know you, it means they may well stop you ask first. But you still could be declared red on a moment's notice, depending on the authority of the people asking the questions, even members of these "NPC" corporations.
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Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.18 19:46:00 -
[66]
Although NBSI does serve its purpose I have one problem with it.
The mentality that comes with it. Too many times do corp members running under the NBSI flag smell entirely to much like piracy.
It turns into not about defending a territory but more into how many kills can we get today and I could care less on how we get them or who we **** off doing it.
And I definitely do not enjoy arguements over who looted that nautral because they wanted the mods to sell on the market.
NRDS is a much better system but it does take more thought and consideration in what you are doing. I was in a corp that was friendly to CVA in the past and it was great. Sense then I was introduced to NBSI and well as stated above I was severly disappointed after seeing NRDS first.
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Kadriel
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.05.22 06:37:00 -
[67]
NBSI is the simplest, most efficient system out there. Neutral = red, so no effort required to update a lamer KOS list. Plus, the theraputic value of poppin somebody in ur area is very real. If you think any player will sit down, have a cup of tea while asking the players history, his intentions etc.. I have some propery to sell you. Plus theres no reason to ask, are they red, are they red? And, there is no emotional reason for nbsi. It's just simple logic.
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Janu Hull
Caldari Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.22 18:29:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Kadriel NBSI is the simplest, most efficient system out there. Neutral = red, so no effort required to update a lamer KOS list. Plus, the theraputic value of poppin somebody in ur area is very real. If you think any player will sit down, have a cup of tea while asking the players history, his intentions etc.. I have some propery to sell you. Plus theres no reason to ask, are they red, are they red? And, there is no emotional reason for nbsi. It's just simple logic.
That isn't logic, its laziness. Street thug mentality complete with colors, turf, and gangsigns. Its not logical, its willful ignorance. Subhuman thinking. That kind of tribalism is why homo sapiens are typing these words instead of neanderthals, and why the Matari are spread across half a dozen states, mostly under the leadership of others, rather than working cooperatively instead of standing as one against their oppressors.
If it works for you, enjoy it. To critique those who put forward the effort to engage in actual human contact and diplomacy is to identify yourself as nothing but a pack animal.
This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless... |
MotoTsume
Gallente Clan Black Scorpion
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Posted - 2007.05.24 00:18:00 -
[69]
Edited by: MotoTsume on 24/05/2007 00:16:46 My experience is if you kill everyone on sight, you eventually become stagnant and never grow, cause you will very likely never get very much new blood in your corps and or alliances.
NRDS allows growth in an area and also in the corps and alliances in those areas,as the people there get to know the neutrals. Yes some will eventually be enemies but a lot will end up allies or even new corp and or alliance members.
NBSI dont lend itself to this quite as well.
edit:spelling and grammar.
It's just a game........Or is it?????
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Azirapheal
Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.29 15:51:00 -
[70]
my former corp relied on NGSI (not green shoot it) although that was just because we had no standings with anyone, free reign - didnt stop you from individually making pacts and agreements with other pilots, but meant that there was no bind on the rest of the corp
Hango touched me in the night! I also stole all of your socks. |
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Ventro69
Caldari Manson Family FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.12 09:22:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Ventro69 on 12/07/2007 09:23:14 I didn't move my entire corp and 3 billion worth of BPO's to 0.0 so that enemy alts can fly around in my home system. That's about as emotional as it gets when I shoot a neutral. He's definately not there to chat about the weather, so no, I won't engage in friendly conversation about his goals, hopes and dreams. That's what chat rooms and therapy is for. If you're not blue to me, there's a 5-point plan in place for you. It goes a little like this.
Scram, web, F1, F2, F3.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.07.12 12:44:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Ansuru Starlancer I just find it amusing when people wax profane about NBSI and evil "enclosurist territorialists."
Any nation on earth would object, and object forecefully if unauthorized military forces crossed their border and started rooting around, hauling resources off to who-knows-where and setting up shop.
As I said, you want in, talk to a diplomat beforehand and get standings set. If you have to pay a fee for those standings, do so. Otherwise, on your own head it be.
Thats the point though. You are holding up ancient planetside territorial customs as a template for how you should run your funky new posthuman space empire. Its a little like a modern industrialised power citing the wisdom of cavemen hunter gatherer ethics above global economies.
NBSI is when all is said and done a lazy standings regime for those who expect others to come to their door and beg for standings or be shot at by the local "road blocks". Its the politics of tribal warlords with a few guns trying to bully the local taxi drivers for spare change.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Ventro69
Caldari Manson Family FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.12 13:17:00 -
[73]
"few guns trying to bully the local taxi drivers for spare change." - My home base is 18 jumps from empire. If you're there, your'e either so lost that pod killing you, will be doing you a favour by putting you back in a station you know. Or, you are like I said before, my enemy's alt.
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Esdi
Minmatar Meridian Dynamics FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.12 18:33:00 -
[74]
Ventro is right. We live 20+ jumps out of empire. If you've gone this far, well...
I was part of an NRDS alliance living out in 0.0, and it was more of a pain then anything. NBSI is simpler and efficient. If you want to do business in our space, contact a diplomat and arrange for a temporary NAP. And if you haven't done that and come into our system(s), well, stay in warp. :)
But, all in all, its about preference. I don't want to have to wonder if that neutral that came in is a spy alt or something. I'd feel better just going in and shooting him and sorting it out later.
--Esdi -Chief Industrial Officer -Aggro Magnet Extraordinaire
Why Meridian? |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.07.14 15:12:00 -
[75]
The moral issue is not really about whether you are NRDS or NBSI. NBSI does not equal isolationist terrotorialism, and NRDS does not equal antpiracy. How you tag the people you shoot is a matter of bureucracy, and different modes suit for different areas of space.
What matters is how you choose who to shoot.
If you control deep space, and control it well, it is relatively easy to make sure that anyone who enters your space knows it is your space and knows who to contact first for blue status. If you are a nice guy, you grant access to anyone who promises to behave, if they just ask. Those who refuse to honor your request to do so -- well, how likely it is they are there in good intentions anyway? NBSI works and is much easier bureaucratically. Especially if you face a threat of invasion, it might the only viable option. On the other hand, going NBSI and roving areas controlled by others is nothing much short of piracy.
On the other hand, if you operate in low-sec, you have no way in hell you can manage to set all neutrals who would not harass you; instead if you want to shoot only people who (or who's corpmates) have no qualms shooting you first, you need to find out who those people are and set them red. NBSI leads to you shooting harmless traders and antipirates and potential new allies. It leads to de facto piracy and ****ing off people who do not need ****ing off. On the other hand, just saying you are NRDS does not mean you are a nice guy -- after all, with suitably active directors you could easily set everyone you spot red and then go pewpew on them, which would again be nothing short of piracy.
So, the question is not whether in general NBSI or NRDS is the right choice. The practical question is how do you use the standings system in your alliance, in your area, in your situation, to avoid shooting people who do not need shooting.
And the moral question is defining who needs to be shot.
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. "When pirates hate your guts, you know you are doing something right." |
Kovid
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.07.15 08:23:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Ventro69 "few guns trying to bully the local taxi drivers for spare change." - My home base is 18 jumps from empire. If you're there, your'e either so lost that pod killing you, will be doing you a favour by putting you back in a station you know. Or, you are like I said before, my enemy's alt.
Who are you to tell someone where they can or can't go? They might be passing through to boost the local enconomy.
Paranoia leading to aggression is an old concept that only causes trouble. Paranoia leading to caution is common sense.
---------------------------------- An informal Star Fraction FAQ | ---------------------------------- |
Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Glauxian Brothers Ground Zeero
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Posted - 2007.07.15 10:20:00 -
[77]
Or then you can let everyone shoot whoever they want. It's not like people are there to shoot npc's.
I'm sure there's reason, place and time for every policy.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition New Eve Order
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Posted - 2007.07.16 05:26:00 -
[78]
I cannot speak for my entire alliance, however, as for The Ninja Coalition, we operate under a NBSI for combat ships, and a NRDS for.. "industrial" ships.. haulers and miners.
However, we control neither a low sec space, nor a spot in 0.0; however, we are more of a travelling corporation.
There are certain areas, which I believe, that operating under a mutual NBSI policy, can lead to respect, and often, an unofficial alliance.
For example:
If I am engaging the the locals in low sec, and another force that is not known comes in and sets up gatecamps, often, both myself and my corp, will work together with the people we usually engage, to get rid of the foreigners.
NBSI can also be beneficial to both parties, especially if they are both locals, and often shoot each other, when one of the parties has other things that he or she must do. Here is another example of a sort of.. respect I suppose:
I was attempting to earn some ISK from my agent, when he sent me on a courier mission through low sec, in an area in which I often go hunting for prey. I set up my Hoarder, and when I jumped through, there was a massive gatecamp operated by a local pirate corporation. While I was still cloaked, I gave my greetings, and told them I had to run a courier mission, and I couldn't participate in some good ol' fashion "pew pew" as it is called there. They replied with disappointment, and told me they haven't seen me in awhile, etc.. and let me pass through without worries.
My 2 isks on the matter. Diplomancy through aggression.
My opinion is my own, not of my corp or my alliance. If you have problems, we can have a "who can do L4 missions faster" duel >:) |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.07.16 15:26:00 -
[79]
There are no neutrals.
------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
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Thoric Frosthammer
Fallen Angels Inc INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.07.16 20:52:00 -
[80]
This is a nonsense post. If you're in our home system and you didnt ask first to get blue standings, you die. If you're flying in a region we're involved in combat with and you aren't blue, odds approach unity that you are on the other side, or are an alt belonging to a member of the other side, so die.
If we don't see you enough to ever kill you, then you have nothing to worry about, so why care that you're neutral?
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Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.16 21:10:00 -
[81]
Heh, you believe ISS was ever neutral. How cute.
Originally by: Khavi Vetali
Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
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Ventro69
Caldari Manson Family FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.17 09:19:00 -
[82]
"Who are you to tell someone where they can or can't go? They might be passing through to boost the local enconomy."
Setting up POS's and claiming sovereignty is who I am and my alliance are. Our economy is just fine thank you. As I said before, we have billions invested in BPO's. Allowing "free traders" is depriving alliance members of an income.
I have said more than enough on this topic.
If you're not blue you're goo!
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Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.17 18:18:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Originally by: Ansuru Starlancer I just find it amusing when people wax profane about NBSI and evil "enclosurist territorialists."
Any nation on earth would object, and object forecefully if unauthorized military forces crossed their border and started rooting around, hauling resources off to who-knows-where and setting up shop.
As I said, you want in, talk to a diplomat beforehand and get standings set. If you have to pay a fee for those standings, do so. Otherwise, on your own head it be.
Thats the point though. You are holding up ancient planetside territorial customs as a template for how you should run your funky new posthuman space empire. Its a little like a modern industrialised power citing the wisdom of cavemen hunter gatherer ethics above global economies.
NBSI is when all is said and done a lazy standings regime for those who expect others to come to their door and beg for standings or be shot at by the local "road blocks". Its the politics of tribal warlords with a few guns trying to bully the local taxi drivers for spare change.
Ah, what a suprise, a member of Star Fraction speaking out of their rear.
When all is said and done, NBSI keeps trash (such as your entire alliance) out of my front yard, as well as spies, alts of spies, alts of hostiles, and hostiles we do not have set red.
Strangers are a potential problem if left alone. Thus they should be harshly discouraged from running around in one's space, or your enemies will quickly take advantage of things to run the alts in.
Originally by: Khavi Vetali
Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.07.18 22:45:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 18/07/2007 22:46:56
Originally by: Berrik Radhok Ah, what a suprise, a member of Star Fraction speaking out of their rear.
Almost as much as a surprise as a member of GoonFleet flaming people on the forums and bringing nothing substantive to the discussion. (try begining your point without a cheap attack and you'd do better).
Star Fraction is recruiting
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DAGMA20
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Posted - 2007.07.25 12:45:00 -
[85]
NBSI is not just a controlling 'territorial' thing, its rather wise. If you have a neutral in local and he doesn't engage you or pretends in local that he is only moving through, and then a whole bunch of your hostile enemies jump in and wtf pwn you you start to realise neutrals are not that nice. Plus neutrals are also useful for daily scouting and intel gathering, so pew pew is always the best solution.
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Spaceman Gene
The Raging Armada Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.07.27 01:31:00 -
[86]
BRUCE uses a combination of NRDS and NBSI and like this thread, our members have widely varying opinions about both. We currently set systems we tend to claim and wish to keep more clean/secure as NBSI and travel lanes as NRDS. We certainly claim a right to self-defense (Fight or flight) should a neutral initiate combat. And our leadership is prompt at setting standings to Red or Blue on case by case basis. Personally, I believe this our systems that you must treat as NBSI for "national security" reasons and others that, like has been pointed out provide benefit if kept NRDS. Some benefits can be increased trade, new friends, and controlling how many enemies an alliance chooses to make. Neutrals that are truly that will and do respect the NBSI systems, while Neutrals that deserve a redbox will not, repeatedly.
Food for thought, there may be enough room for both schools of thought.
Regards, Gene
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Desiderious
Gallente Setenta Corp Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.07.28 08:44:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Kovid If you allow a more lenient policy like NRDS and let people dock in 0.0 stations trade can flow outside of empire without convoys or carrier runs. Trade hubs in empire and low sec could be less important. 0.0 market prices would drop for alliances that did so. No longer would you have to pay 50-100k for a shuttle or something else stupid. Or just having a market stocked for that matter. The argument that neutral bring no benefit is countered by the market they bring to the area which is huge. Plus it brings people to you that you would never have met or shot.
Might I add a few slight problems with this approach. First of all hostiles could ruin your market right before a big attack making you very vulnerable. They could simply buy out all the ships on market, and launch their attack. Also if you were to open up space to everyone, it wouldn't mean too much unless everyone else along the pipe back to empire did as well. ----------------------------- Oink ^OO^ Your sig is too large. Please resize it so that it fits within 400x120. -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
Gecko O'Bac
Aquilae Stellaris Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.07.28 12:54:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Ansuru Starlancer I just find it amusing when people wax profane about NBSI and evil "enclosurist territorialists."
Any nation on earth would object, and object forecefully if unauthorized military forces crossed their border and started rooting around, hauling resources off to who-knows-where and setting up shop.
As I said, you want in, talk to a diplomat beforehand and get standings set. If you have to pay a fee for those standings, do so. Otherwise, on your own head it be.
I agree. I lived in 0.0 space for almost all my capsuleering life. It's not about being bloodthirsty, it's about a lot of OTHER things: 1) Speed. NBSI is by far the easier and faster method of FOF Identification. You want to pass, even to come and contribute economy? No problem with that... As Fallen soul now, Ion core and Lotka Volterra before, we did that. BUT you have to ask for standings first. I'm not going to allow unathorized immigration in my space.
2) Defense of the weak. Any alliance, especially big ones, is bound to have lots of people who are new to the capsuleering job, be it mining or fighting. Since, from experience, most "neutrals" are in fact the bloodthirsty bunch we are accused of being, shooting them prevents an expense of Alliance/Corp/members funds to repair the damage done (I'm talking of BSs popped while ratting in belt for example)
3) Defense of the economy. There is a completely different approach here from NRDS and NBSI groups. 0.0 based NBSI alliances, with claimed space, usually have a functional enough economy, all driven by THEIR members, often with mutual agreement on prices. Plus they often have the chance to bring their almost 0-cost-of-production items in empire by means of capital transport. We have richer belts, we have all the production research slots we need, we have industrial capsuleers. What we don't want to have is "neutral" people coming in and disrupting the economy. And citing Ventro (I think), we don't want neutral capsuleers funded by enemies to come and buy all the assets we need for ourselves.
4) Defense of the territory. With all those neutrals flying around you can't really tell if some are organising more than just a shopping spree. And you don't really need to be in the same corp/alliance to organise a fighting gang. Plus, and this is especially true for alliances actively engaged in war (but almost for any 0.0 claiming alliance since every system is precious), you can't EVER underestimate the possibility of a single neutral being the cyno generator for a capital fleet.
5) Intelligence. It's already easy enough taking safespots and sniping spots with a covert ops without having a neutral flying appearently harmlessly around in your system and get precise info on what you're doing and when you're doing it.
6) Training. Well firing between allies isn't the same like firing on an unknown menace. Plus you usually have the advantage of being just 1 or 2 neutrals at time instead of being a full gang of enemies.
7) Money. Well yeah, I suppose you loot 'em after you pop 'em, right? And probably you salvage their wreck too. That's what we do. It's not like you can live off it but it is a nice addition to your wallet nevertheless. And you can never know when that faction item will drop...
That's the core of it. I might mention "fun", as there are people who actually enjoy shooting whoever is in range just for the fun of it. But that's not really the driving issue here.
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Ungdall
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.03 20:48:00 -
[89]
As I see it, the case of deciding between NBSI and NRDS can often come down to the goals, ideologies and size of the group in question. Actually, it sems the case will always come down to those three (and more) things. The decision is not one that can be applied in blanket cases.
A small corporation or alliance will have a far eaisert time dealing with neutrals because they stand a better chance of knowing just who their enemies are. Thsi is because information is far aise to be had concerning allies/hostiles when there is only small group of people.
Also, in cases where people speak of how allowing neutrals in will help the market, this need not always be the case. IN large alliances there is suffeciant demand and supply within the alliance to create a fully functional market with a stable econoy supplying all you might need.
A case for NBSI is easy to find when you look at how massive Goonfleet is. Due to our size, we must operate on NBSI, The number of enemies we have is almost infite, and as I understand it, we have only so many slots in which to set group Red. Also, those we have set red will have their own allies whom we do not know of. In this case it becomes an avalanche of enemies we had no clue existed.
From this you begin to have roaming gangs of people unknown to you, but with full hostility of their side.
Also, it doesn't matter if some unknown neutral wanders into our space, it is thei responsibility to know where they are and to be aware of the local political clime and beliefes. We get to shoot, they get to die.
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Taintedbeef
Industrial Warlords Southern Connection
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Posted - 2007.08.22 22:58:00 -
[90]
I don't see why people cry about alliances choosing to be NBSI. Yes, they have thought about it on their own, and no, your opinion isn't going to matter to them. NBSI is about keeping anyone who isn't your friend out of your space, want to come in, better open a chat window before you start mooching off someone else's hard work. If you go to any area largely without sovereignty you will find crappy ores, and crappy rats, there is a reason. If you want a good system with good rats, and relative security you have to fight for it, or pay for it, thats simply the way the world works.
Every week there is another person crying about the last ship they lost because of NBSI. I am sorry for your loss, maybe you should open a chat window before you start ratting, mining, or hauling in a system someone else controls. Even better why don't you go back to empire if you are unwilling to lose a ship here and there, that is the nature of .0, and as long as there is .0 space, there are going to be pirates, and corps who don't like you because you aren't their friend.
I have lived in .0 under an alliance and without. You can rat in .0 without you just have to learn to be more careful, and be less trusting, NRDS work only after you've lost ships and money, NBSI works now. Similarly large alliances, or groups of alliances have no reason to trust anyone outside of their alliance. When 90% of the people flying though your space are in your larger alliances, 7% hostiles, and 3% neutrals you have no reason to take the risk that those 3% aren't hostiles, or scouts. Generally if I see a neutral or hostile in system I'll wait to jump because there is a chance there will be 50 ships on the other side of that gate. So next time you want to fly as a neutral remember that everyone else in that system is flying to a POS, docking, or having to wait around till you leave to jump out of system all because you did not take the time to make friends before entering the system, and with that realize you are costing all of those people money. That my friend is why you should not complain about NBSI. NBSI is mean to you only because you did not take the time to research who lives in an area and talk to them before coming into their systems and trying to make money.
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Zxenis
Caldari Devious - Special Forces Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.08.24 21:24:00 -
[91]
You let a few illegals in and next thing ya know your hospitals and schools are overrun. Come in through legal means and all you have to worry about are the reds
NBSI ftw.
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. Niccolo Machiavelli (1469 - 1527) |
Director Stoned
Band of Developers
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Posted - 2007.08.28 04:59:00 -
[92]
Policy in my sapce is simple: NBQIIIIHOLYTRINTTTRI
Not Blue Qusetion It, If It Is Hostile Or Locks You Then Run, If Not Then Try To Ransom It.
There is a little more give and take then a direct NBSI policy but it's a little more flexible and allows you to make ISK better then the other policies i've encountered.
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MotoTsume
Gallente Clan Black Scorpion
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Posted - 2007.09.13 22:42:00 -
[93]
Am I the only one that finds it severely ironic that Star Faction members have been posting here how they are all about NRDS, yet Star Faction members regularly violate NRDS policies and attack anything they can when in providence?
---------- www.mototsume.ca It's just a game........Or is it?
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redialer
Minmatar The African Contingency Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.09.13 23:03:00 -
[94]
It's NBSOS, because these guys say one thing, do another.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.09.14 07:58:00 -
[95]
Originally by: MotoTsume Am I the only one that finds it severely ironic that Star Faction members have been posting here how they are all about NRDS, yet Star Faction members regularly violate NRDS policies and attack anything they can when in providence?
Star Fraction is as pretty much everyone with any sense knows - absolutely NRDS. Providence on the other hand is full of organizations that take their lead from Slavers of the CVA and set people the CVA don't like to -10 KOS. This leads random people to shoot at the SF and consequence of this is that the random people get a -10 KOS from us and elevated to the position of targets for future engagements.
If you have any questions about how your organization came to be -10 from the Star Fraction simply send an evemail to our diplomats and ask. We have very detailed records and in most cases we can pinpoint the date/time and even weapon types employed against our vessels that earned your -10 status.
If you believe we have wrongfully fired on a neutral (ie an organization that hasn't previously fired on us) then feel free to provide details of the engagement either here, or in private discussion with our diplomatic staff.
If we have made a mistake we will reimburse and apologise.
Be aware though that unsubstantiated slurs without hard data will generally be dismissed as a work of CVA loyalist trolls attempting (without success) to besmirch the reputations of people who have practised NRDS without fail since the beginning of the capsule pilot Diaspora.
So - lets have your data please.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Adrian Steel
Caldari The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.09.20 10:11:00 -
[96]
Unlike NRDS, NBSI is a self-fulfilling prophecy. As you fire on every neutral that comes to what you consider as "your space", they in turn will consider you an enemy. The chances then become higher that they send in a gang to retaliate. They lose ships and you lose ships: everyone loses.
Then there are individuals like me who (before I joined Star Fraction) explicitly went into 0.0 space to have some target practice, because I knew that the locals there would consider me an enemy on sight. In cases where I knew the locals were NRDS, I would respect them and not fire on them, knowing they would do the same.
I believe in free passage through the void. If you are going to insult me and prevent me this free passage by firing on my vessel, I will return in kind. Your hostility to those who have not pandered to you for standings only causes you headaches on the long term, to compensate for the short term ease of not having to bother with setting people as enemies who are truly your enemies.
The easy way out will be your own undoing. Organizations like the Star Fraction have come about explicitly because NBSI policies have aggravated so many. Our very existence has caused you more harm. We are the firearm you hold, which you fire at your own feet.
I've never seen such convoluted masochism as the NBSI policy.
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Serenity Celestine
Wrath Of Khaine Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.21 07:29:00 -
[97]
I see alot of NBSI alliances claiming they operate in such a way to keep it simple and keep hostiles/hostile alts out. They shoot anything that isnt blue that enters their space and dont consider it piracy cause they are "defending their space from (possible) hostiles" I cant say that I dont see a certain amount of logic in that, but I dont agree with how most carry that out.
Pretty much all NBSI alliances that boarder 0.0 space set up gate camps with bubbles and kill anything that enters that isnt blue. This in my book is piracy. Its one thing to kill suspicious looking neutrals that have been hanging about just a little too long for comfort, in a system that is important to your alliances security. But most take it too far imo.
At some point in their Eve career most pod pilots want to at least experience a little 0.0 space, so they plot a course for the nearest 0.0 system and hope for the best. All to often they meet their doom at the hands of and indiscriminate blob with way to many warp bubbles deployed. THIS IS PIRACY by just about any standards. Its one thing to be NBSI way out in 0.0 near HQ systems for security reasons, but entirely another to have a gank squad sitting at an entrance to 0.0 23/7.
It is pretty easy to tell a noob looking for adventure from an alt spy, and typically noobs dont go way out into 0.0 and hang around strategically important systems, hostile alts/spies do.
So I say to those alliances that use NBSI "to keep out hostiles" as an excuse to slaughter anything that enters 0.0, you are indeed pirates, and no better than the blob of 20 -10 sec status BS camping some random gate in low sec.
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Arondor
Digital Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.21 16:27:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Adrian Steel Edited by: Adrian Steel on 20/09/2007 10:21:01 Unlike NRDS, NBSI is a self-fulfilling prophecy. As you fire on every neutral that comes to what you consider as "your space", they in turn will consider you an enemy, regardless of their original intentions. The chances then become higher that they send in a gang to retaliate. They lose ships and you lose ships: everyone loses.
to me this seems like : everyone wins!
pew pew
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Hunters Presence
Amarr Nuclear Engagement
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Posted - 2007.09.27 18:50:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Serenity Celestine So I say to those alliances that use NBSI "to keep out hostiles" as an excuse to slaughter anything that enters 0.0, you are indeed pirates, and no better than the blob of 20 -10 sec status BS camping some random gate in low sec.
Indeed... but it suits them to do so. Even if they didn't have this convenient excuse, they'd still do it.
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Clerence Thomas
Gallente Black Lotus Heavy Industries Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2007.09.27 20:24:00 -
[100]
Having been around for a long time, simply put probably the best arrangement is a hybrid. NBSI in a protected, declared home space and NRDS in a more open "public" space. Personally, I am industry. I *HATE* "pew pew" with a passion, however since I live and work in 0.0 I depend on those that enjoy it to help me out. And don't for one minute think that because I don't like combat I won't be out there on the line defending my alliance when i'm needed. -- "There are over 500 million fire arms in worldwide circulation. That is one fire arm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is... How do we arm the other eleven?"
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Phrixus Zephyr
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.27 20:41:00 -
[101]
We'd operate NRDS if everyone didn't shoot us wherever we go.
: sad panda :
Originally by: consider telos ..then we had a fight and he was so dead and then I like became champion of eve and then ccp gave me a medal and a t-shirt and asked me to go out with him on a date to mcD' |
Nez Perces
Amarr Black Spot.
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Posted - 2007.10.01 02:33:00 -
[102]
I'm a little late with this discussion.. but here goes anyways...
There is no practical purpose for having any space claiming system besides NBSI. All variations of allowing neutrals into 0.0 have already been tried and they are at best an uphill struggle and at worst a catalyser for the hemorrhage of combat pilots, from ones alliance.
Most combat pilots want to log onto the game, shoot stuff and have a good time.. period.. they do not wanna waste time playing diplomats in space and by allowing neutrals into your claimed space, you are effectively forcing every combat pilot to become a diplomat... and it gets old fast.
The only entities that still harp on about neutrality in 0.0 are ideologues (e.g Jericho Fraction), role players (e.g CVA) and people who have little or no experience in 0.0
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Jaeger J
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Posted - 2007.10.01 12:19:00 -
[103]
Look if you can not understand the need to shoot anyone not 100% friendly when they enter your space then you spend way to much time in empire or have no clue just how valuable assets are in this game. Who the hell wants to deal with spy chars and random spam in your home area. The real question is why are people walking into a strangers house and acting suprised when they get boot?
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Tzesaeia
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Posted - 2007.10.07 13:10:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Tzesaeia on 07/10/2007 13:15:16 Edited by: Tzesaeia on 07/10/2007 13:13:56 As I read this post I miss one thing all the time:
Humanity
In the code of the Samurai: Bushido "by Inazo Nitobe" it is stated as one of the true essentials of beeing a warrior.
Brave Honour Loyality Politness Sincerity Humanity Justice
Although those are not binding to anyone not feeling as a warrior in the traditional manner, they bind all of you who quoted Sun Tzu and others to justify NBSI policy. Out of the traditional warrior philosophy NBSI is not acceptable. If you don't see this stop reading books and start the true way by getting a teacher and practising an art.
All who practise NBSI because they are frightenend to get shot at first or to get spied at and act out of their fear are weak judging by traditional warrior philosophies.
Weak in the hearts, ruled by their fear they are doomed to live a unhonourus life full of dissapointment and disssatisfaction. There victories won't fill them with true pride and their losses will produce more doubts and make them weaker. They'll get no pity neither of their enemies nor of anyone else.
They'll always stay suspicous and cautious, even with their closest allies, what will on the other hand be feld by those and there allies will not fight fully hearted for them, as they won't for there allies.
The bonds they once had will brake over those mistrustfulness and they will become lonely, isolated and weak. In the end they will fall.
Fear is not a failure it is there to help you die when you should and live than you should. A true warrior fears war. While he is seeking for death he knows of the worth of life and what his power in life can change for him, his family and his lord. He always judges a situation and he will know, when it is time to die and, when it is time to life. He will never allow himself to be guided by his fear - his guide is in his heart, the way, his Sensei and his lord.
A true warrior would never risk his life for no reason. Attacking anyone regardless if he is friend or foe or, if he at all is willing to fight you, is great foolishness. As it is even worse, if one lets himself be guided by his emotions esspecially by fear. You risk to die without reason. You can't anymore help your Lord when he is in real danger, you can't anymore defend you home form a true enemy. You died without purpose.
You can bring this philosophy down to a real Eve situation. You see a neutral in the local channel scan for him and attack him. He kills you in selfdefence befor he could even try to tell you that he is comming without harmfull intends and that he just passed a enemy group of wich he thinks is going to attack your Space. He kills you befor you could talk with each other. You won't have the chance to fight his gang, since yor ships was destroyed and you woke up on a Station too far from the combat area. Several of your corp m8s get into the ambush of your enemy and die because nobody warned them.
A even worse scenario would be that, because of your NBSI policies the neutral don't even considers to help you anymore, since he knows you are hostile to him whilst your enemy who might practises NRDS is not. So he helps your enemy by reporting that he met you instead of warning you. Even if you had overcome him and slaughtered him befor he could talk, in Eve, he is still able to report in a channel of your enemy. You're enemy will be ready for you and overcome you with ease or avoid you attacking someone else in your alliance or safely flying home, planning a new attack. In any case you loose while you could have won.
Fear is never a good guide. Don't allow yourself to be ruled by it. It produces pain and leads into perdition.
Instead let yorself be guided by your heart and an open mind. Be ready for every possibilty. Anyone can be friend or enemy even your closest associates. You have to think over possibilities in advance adn you'll be prepared for the actions of your fellow men.
A true warrio
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Tzesaeia
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Posted - 2007.10.07 13:11:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Tzesaeia on 07/10/2007 13:11:33 reserved
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Tzesaeia
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Posted - 2007.10.07 13:12:00 -
[106]
reserved
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Sirrakhis
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.10.14 14:17:00 -
[107]
Not Blue Shoot It. i.e. - We don't have the patience and demeanor necessary to debate your legitimacy with you and find it far easier to shoot first and provoke a far more interesting (and hopefully action-packed) response.
NBSI was specifically developed a couple years ago so we would be capable of shooting pilots of The Star Fraction without having to discuss and debate the legitimacy of doing with them for hours beforehand.
There are vaults filled with data log detailing encounters where hundreds of good pilots were not armed with enough literacy to wage a battle of words, much less a war. This is a testament to The Star Fraction. Their ability to debate issues into eternity is matched only by their willingness to do so. NBSI was the natural reaction from the rest of EVE to alleviate a severe deficiency in wars of words...sadly, this often still holds true, and should in no way diminish The Star Fraction's accountability for forcing so many alliances in EVE to adopt this policy.
We're discussing evolution of initiating combat, plain and simple. Your Friendly Neighborhood Whip-*****er
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Adrian Steel
Caldari The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.10.15 00:16:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Sirrakhis Not Blue Shoot It. i.e. - We don't have the patience and demeanor necessary to debate your legitimacy with you and find it far easier to shoot first and provoke a far more interesting (and hopefully action-packed) response.
NBSI was specifically developed a couple years ago so we would be capable of shooting pilots of The Star Fraction without having to discuss and debate the legitimacy of doing with them for hours beforehand.
There are vaults filled with data log detailing encounters where hundreds of good pilots were not armed with enough literacy to wage a battle of words, much less a war. This is a testament to The Star Fraction. Their ability to debate issues into eternity is matched only by their willingness to do so. NBSI was the natural reaction from the rest of EVE to alleviate a severe deficiency in wars of words...sadly, this often still holds true, and should in no way diminish The Star Fraction's accountability for forcing so many alliances in EVE to adopt this policy.
We're discussing evolution of initiating combat, plain and simple.
See! When Concord did anti-booster billboard campaigns aimed at pod pilots, it was with good reason. Many have lost their ability to verbalize themselves after taking Ibis-sized quantities of boosters into their bodies.
It appears the boosters haven't affected your verbal expression in the slightest Sirrakhis. Unfortunately, you're still mentally deficient !
Remember rookies! Boosters kill brain cells!
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Destable
Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.10.15 01:21:00 -
[109]
/me grins at this whole thread.
Hows that for even lower level verbalization? Really, whatever needs to be said on this subject has been said well by so many people, including myself, over the last 4.5 years that all have in me tonight is a chuckle that the discussion is still going on. Also amused at how the jabs remain so consistent to those with an opposing view.
I'll personally bite again though. I love you guys kinda.
Dest.
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Desius
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:19:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Sirrakhis ....Their ability to debate issues into eternity is matched only by their willingness to do so. ....
I thought you were talking about me for a minute there....
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
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redialer
Minmatar The African Contingency Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.10.16 02:09:00 -
[111]
Still, Not Blue Shoot On Sight or NBSI :)
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E Vile
Fifth Exiled Legion SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.18 06:07:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Claiming/controlling space takes a lot of effort, building and maintaining or defending infrastructure even more so. Random people coming in freeloading on your stuff and running whenever danger comes around the corner are very much disliked.
Then theres of course spies and alt chars doing logistics.
Agreed
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Audri Fisher
Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.11.05 22:24:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Serenity Celestine I see alot of NBSI alliances claiming they operate in such a way to keep it simple and keep hostiles/hostile alts out. They shoot anything that isnt blue that enters their space and dont consider it piracy cause they are "defending their space from (possible) hostiles" I cant say that I dont see a certain amount of logic in that, but I dont agree with how most carry that out.
Pretty much all NBSI alliances that boarder 0.0 space set up gate camps with bubbles and kill anything that enters that isnt blue. This in my book is piracy. Its one thing to kill suspicious looking neutrals that have been hanging about just a little too long for comfort, in a system that is important to your alliances security. But most take it too far imo.
At some point in their Eve career most pod pilots want to at least experience a little 0.0 space, so they plot a course for the nearest 0.0 system and hope for the best. All to often they meet their doom at the hands of and indiscriminate blob with way to many warp bubbles deployed. THIS IS PIRACY by just about any standards. Its one thing to be NBSI way out in 0.0 near HQ systems for security reasons, but entirely another to have a gank squad sitting at an entrance to 0.0 23/7.
It is pretty easy to tell a noob looking for adventure from an alt spy, and typically noobs dont go way out into 0.0 and hang around strategically important systems, hostile alts/spies do.
So I say to those alliances that use NBSI "to keep out hostiles" as an excuse to slaughter anything that enters 0.0, you are indeed pirates, and no better than the blob of 20 -10 sec status BS camping some random gate in low sec.
The point is to kill the hostile alts BEFORE they get to strategicaly important systems. once they get in, it may be to late.
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