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Boosting of logoff tactics a miscalculated side effect?

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Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 00:10:00 - [1] Edited by: Ryysa on 20/03/2007 00:08:04 From the patch notes: Quote: Logging off inside a warp disrupt bubble (mobile warp disrupt or interdictor bubble) no longer triggers an emergency warp. Now we all know what happens if someone who is not aggressed logs out. His ship disappears within a minute, no matter if he gets aggressed within that one minute. Iirc the cloaking time on a gate is 30 seconds-ish? Now imagine the following situation: 1. Interdictor bubble is up on a gate, hostile jumps in. Hostile does not have aggression timer. 2. Hostile logs off. Before, he would attempt to emergency warp immediately out of the bubble, breaking his cloak. And the people on the gate had one minute to kill him. Now he will remain cloaked for 30 seconds, because no warp will be initiated, even while he is logged off. And you will have only 30 seconds to kill his ship. Now, unless I missed something, jumping into a camp and logging has just become even more attractive than it was before. Discuss. N.F.F. Recruitment
Seana Elria E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.20 00:13:00 - [2] Edited by: Seana Elria on 20/03/2007 00:10:31 I thought the logoff timer was 2 minutes, but even if it were simply 1, with 30 seconds of being cloaked, the remaining 30 seconds would be plenty of enough time (considering you can't tank while logged off aside from passive shield tanking) for a determined gatecamp (that has enough dps) to kill most anything. The odd battleship might slip through if it has alot of hp, but anything smaller than that still will die quickly.
Supay Caldari The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2007.03.20 00:14:00 - [3] Edited by: Supay on 20/03/2007 00:11:10 If in a passively tanked BS, or BC, then it might save them. However, remember that their tank will not be running whatsoever and any smaller ships are going to get murdered. It will still be a pain for people who aren't fitted for speed ganking when faced with large ships as it'll take too long to chew through the hitpoints. But considering the number of frigate->cruiser sized vessels which love to logoff, it's going to be a field day popping those who don't read patch notes and love logoffs. Also, they'll still be there when they log back in. If you're camping that spot, that is their night ruined. Personally, anyone who insists on logging on me still will find me bubbling them for the next few hours, regardless of how boring it is. Only one signature image is permitted on the forums, please pick one -Sahwoolo I'll be eating out of your bins!
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.03.20 00:14:00 - [4] Then within that 30 seconds you shoot him, and he gets agro and stays for 15 mins. What I want to know is, will logging off and logging in with another char in the same account still cause instant ship disappearance despite bubbles, agro or whatever? --- Originally by: Foopadoo Hell hath no fury like an internet nerd scorned.
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 00:15:00 - [5] Originally by: Seana Elria I thought the logoff timer was 2 minutes, but even if it were simply 1, with 30 seconds of being cloaked, the remaining 30 seconds would be plenty of enough time (considering you can't tank while logged off aside from passive shield tanking) for a determined gatecamp (that has enough dps) to kill most anything. Yes, but let's say it's not a gatecamp. Let's say you have a roaming gang of 3-4 people, a raven jumps in and logs. You have for example minmatar recon, and interdictor/points to hold him down, maybe even some sensor dampeners. So you are telling me that encouraging blobbing even further is fine? Don't forget, the time that is cut further also must include getting in range and locking the target. N.F.F. Recruitment
Supay Caldari The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2007.03.20 00:16:00 - [6] Originally by: Marquis Dean Then within that 30 seconds you shoot him, and he gets agro and stays for 15 mins. What I want to know is, will logging off and logging in with another char in the same account still cause instant ship disappearance despite bubbles, agro or whatever? If he logged off before you aggroed, he will not get the aggression flag. Which is why people will be logging off while still cloaked after jumping. Only one signature image is permitted on the forums, please pick one -Sahwoolo I'll be eating out of your bins!
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 00:16:00 - [7] Edited by: Ryysa on 20/03/2007 00:12:29 Originally by: Marquis Dean Then within that 30 seconds you shoot him, and he gets agro and stays for 15 mins. NO HE DOES NOT. HE DOES NOT... READ IT AGAIN HE DOES NOT. P.S. Capslock is the cruise control for cool ;) N.F.F. Recruitment
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.03.20 00:17:00 - [8] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 20/03/2007 00:12:29 Originally by: Marquis Dean Then within that 30 seconds you shoot him, and he gets agro and stays for 15 mins. NO HE DOES NOT. HE DOES NOT... READ IT AGAIN HE DOES NOT. P.S. Capslock is the cruise control for cool ;) Oh. I didn't know that. Well then the nerf only really solved half the problem then. --- Originally by: Foopadoo Hell hath no fury like an internet nerd scorned.
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 00:21:00 - [9] Edited by: Ryysa on 20/03/2007 00:17:26 Yes, and it made the other half, which is the more important one, a LOT worse. This is the reason for the thread. N.F.F. Recruitment
Daenethx Gallente Fallen Angel's Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 00:45:00 - [10] This will stop people logging when being warp scrammed, they have aggro. If the coward wants to log in a bubble then give him a longer aggro timer... Still won't catch frigates that log cloaked when there is no bubble, but it's a step in the right direction =]
B1G DAVE Mining and Research Industrial Organisation Hell Hounds	Posted - 2007.03.20 01:01:00 - [11] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 20/03/2007 00:17:26 Yes, and it made the other half, which is the more important one, a LOT worse. This is the reason for the thread. How did it make it worse? It will go from before, having no chance to kill someone, to now, have a very good chance of killing someone that logs. Its not the end of the world, and I'm just happy that at least something has been changed. Just a pity it wasn't the same for if someone is warp scrambled and they log.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.20 01:02:00 - [12] Originally by: B1G DAVE Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 20/03/2007 00:17:26 Yes, and it made the other half, which is the more important one, a LOT worse. This is the reason for the thread. How did it make it worse? It will go from before, having no chance to kill someone, to now, have a very good chance of killing someone that logs. Its not the end of the world, and I'm just happy that at least something has been changed. Just a pity it wasn't the same for if someone is warp scrambled and they log. Before, if someone logged, you could still scramble them if their ship didn't warp fast enough. Now, they DO NOT WARP OUT, and so do not decloak! --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.03.20 01:10:00 - [13] How long is the cloak timer at a gate? Isn't it longer than 30 seconds? Like, a minute or two? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.20 01:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Hllaxiu How long is the cloak timer at a gate? Isn't it longer than 30 seconds? Like, a minute or two? 30 seconds is the cloak time, 1 minute is the logoff timer. So you have 30 seconds to kill the ship at the gate. This means that anything but a giant blob is generally screwed with regards to killing larger ships, and even a large blob might have difficulty killing a freighter. --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.20 02:01:00 - [15] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Hllaxiu How long is the cloak timer at a gate? Isn't it longer than 30 seconds? Like, a minute or two? 30 seconds is the cloak time, 1 minute is the logoff timer. So you have 30 seconds to kill the ship at the gate. This means that anything but a giant blob is generally screwed with regards to killing larger ships, and even a large blob might have difficulty killing a freighter. I am not sure when the 30 second timer starts for the player jumping in but I wouldn't be surprised if it is a bit less for them as their screen loads. I know I have heard of people getting ganked coming out of a lagged to hell station before they even knew they were being attacked. That and remember it will take some moments for the pilot to assess the situation and choose to logoff. Granted all these things may add up to no more than seconds but they seem to be important seconds in the attempt to blow up the ship. For instance between load time and sorting out that he wants to logoff there may only be 15-20 seconds left on the timer allowing a bit more time for the camp to nail him. But yeah...a freighter would be hard to drop in under a minute to all but very large camps.
Blind Man Kemono. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 02:03:00 - [16] yep, the real problem is logging off while cloaked after jump in because it hurts low-sec and 0.0, whereas the loggoff out of bubbles was only in 0.0
WhiteTiger	Posted - 2007.03.20 02:16:00 - [17] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: B1G DAVE Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 20/03/2007 00:17:26 Yes, and it made the other half, which is the more important one, a LOT worse. This is the reason for the thread. .... Before, if someone logged, you could still scramble them if their ship didn't warp fast enough. Now, they DO NOT WARP OUT, and so do not decloak! Wrong. Currently as long as they ctrl-Q before the jump-in cloak is over no amount of points will hold them, they will align and warp off. Bumping might work, but I haven't really tried it. This doesn't make things any worse than before, since it wasn't possible to kill someone quick with ctrl-q before and now at least you have 30 secs... This mostly just fixes system defense with bubbles, since now you can't just jump-in, log off, log on, and be out of the bubble.
Nalar Marnith Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.20 02:17:00 - [18] Edited by: Nalar Marnith on 20/03/2007 02:23:45 Scenario: Tard encounters gatecamp and logs. Old system: Instawarp (assuming it worked), 60 seconds to probe and kill tard. New system: 30 seconds (min) to kill tard. So if you're an uber probe guy, you'd be doing pretty well to find and warp to someone within 30 seconds. I don't know about you guys but my BS gets into warp pretty damn slowly. So you're looking at around the same time really. Also have you verified that logging in a bubble doesn't instantly de-cloak you?
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.20 02:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Nalar Marnith Edited by: Nalar Marnith on 20/03/2007 02:15:05 Scenario: Tard encounters gatecamp and logs. Old system: Instawarp (assuming it worked), 60 seconds to probe and kill tard. New system: 30 seconds (max) to kill tard. So if you're an uber probe guy, you'd be doing pretty well to find and warp to someone within 30 seconds. I don't know about you guys but my BS gets into warp pretty damn slowly. So you're looking at around the same time really. Also have you verified that logging in a bubble doesn't instantly de-cloak you? I think you are missing it: New System: Tard sees he is in a bubble and logs off. His ship does not warp anywhere and decloaks itself in the bubble. You have 30 seconds (probably a bit more but we'll say 30 seconds) to target lock him and blow him up as he won't go anywhere so neither do you. Most bubble camps should be able to drop anything short of a battleship in that time and might even get some battleships depending on the camp and the battleship's tank.
Nalar Marnith Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.20 02:29:00 - [20] Edited by: Nalar Marnith on 20/03/2007 02:29:10 Originally by: Humpalot I think you are missing it: New System: Tard sees he is in a bubble and logs off. His ship does not warp anywhere and decloaks itself in the bubble. You have 30 seconds (probably a bit more but we'll say 30 seconds) to target lock him and blow him up as he won't go anywhere so neither do you. Most bubble camps should be able to drop anything short of a battleship in that time and might even get some battleships depending on the camp and the battleship's tank. No I get it, I just didn't write it very well. That last paragraph was in reference to the old system. I will correct it, but it's recorded for posterity anyway ;)
RaWBLooD	Posted - 2007.03.20 02:36:00 - [21] oh stop whining, they cant log back in until you are done with the gatecamp.
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 03:18:00 - [22] Edited by: Ryysa on 20/03/2007 03:20:25 Originally by: WhiteTiger Wrong. Currently as long as they ctrl-Q before the jump-in cloak is over no amount of points will hold them, they will align and warp off. Bumping might work, but I haven't really tried it. Err... perhaps you should go out and pvp more. If someone logs and you put a point on them, they won't warp off. They will stay there scrambled until their 1 minute (if not aggressed) or 15 minute timer runs out. Quote: This doesn't make things any worse than before, since it wasn't possible to kill someone quick with ctrl-q before and now at least you have 30 secs... Read to what i wrote again, i don't know why you make up ** on the fly. Before, you had 1 minute to kill them, now you would have 30 seconds. Quote: This mostly just fixes system defense with bubbles, since now you can't just jump-in, log off, log on, and be out of the bubble. Yes, it fixes this, but it makes killing any casual person who jumps into your dictor (not neccesserely at your gate camp) exactly two times harder. Originally by:** Nalar Marnith Scenario: Tard encounters gatecamp and logs. New system: 30 seconds (min) to kill tard. It might actually be longer depending on how fast they log. Correct. Quote: Old system: Instawarp (assuming it worked), 60 seconds to probe and kill tard. Wtf is up with your instawarp. Why do you have to PROBE anyone? If they log, put a point on them, VOILA scrambled, now you have 60 seconds to kill them (According to the old system), no probing needed. I don't care about a shuttle logging on me or a frig. Those were the only ones you couldn't scramble fast enough before they left your bubble. But i do care about a battleship/battlecruiser gaining god damn near invincimode. Just think about it. Passivetanked drake is the safest ship for 0.0. If you ever get in trouble just LOG, anything short of a 20-30 man fleet can not touch you. Quote: So if you're an uber probe guy, you'd be doing pretty well to find and warp to someone within 30 seconds. I don't know about you guys but my BS gets into warp pretty damn slowly, so getting the gang to the target eats a chunk of time. So you're looking at around the same time really. No, because probing was not involved in the first place. Quote: Also have you verified that logging in a bubble doesn't instantly de-cloak you? Nope, but I don't see why it would. Originally by: Humpalot New System: Tard sees he is in a bubble and logs off. His ship does not warp anywhere and decloaks itself in the bubble. You have 30 seconds (probably a bit more but we'll say 30 seconds) to target lock him and blow him up as he won't go anywhere so neither do you. Most bubble camps should be able to drop anything short of a battleship in that time and might even get some battleships depending on the camp and the battleship's tank. Have you ever considered the goddamn fact that pvp in eve is more than stupid gatecamps? That if a battleship logs on your 4-5 man mid-sized roaming gang, which has an interdictor, you just might NOT kill him within 30 seconds but you might have been able to kill him within 60 seconds? Originally by: RaWBLooD oh stop whining, they cant log back in until you are done with the gatecamp. Go die, seriously, why do you post this **** here. If you think pvping in eve is just gatecamps, I seriously suggest you go and uninstall. N.F.F. Recruitment
Nalar Marnith Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.20 03:46:00 - [23] Edited by: Nalar Marnith on 20/03/2007 03:42:59 Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 20/03/2007 03:20:25Wtf is up with your instawarp. Why do you have to PROBE anyone? If they log, put a point on them, VOILA scrambled, now you have 60 seconds to kill them (According to the old system), no probing needed. I don't care about a shuttle logging on me or a frig. Those were the only ones you couldn't scramble fast enough before they left your bubble. But i do care about a battleship/battlecruiser gaining god damn near invincimode. Alright, so what you wanted was for people to agree with you, not discuss. There's no need to have a go at anyone who may not have a complete understanding of the mechanic. My apologies for misunderstanding the mechanic there. I've never logged off in a bubble, nor had it happen to me so I'm not 100% on the mechanic. Also, you're basing all this on an assumption yourself. It may be possible that your ship will try to warp when in a bubble, but be jammed the same way it would've if you'd had a point.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 04:12:00 - [24] I remember reading somewhere that shooting a ship in space, while pilot is logged off, will set aggro timer. I think it was either in some dev blog or dev post. If this doesn't work, if shooting a logged off ship at the gate doesn't set aggro timer, then it's clearly a bug. It should be fixed. Aggro timer should be independent of pilot online status. Aggro timer should be tied only to the ship itself, not pilot.
Kuma Korosu	Posted - 2007.03.20 04:19:00 - [25] So now if I warp/jump into a gate camp and I get disconnected, I'm basically dead, right?
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.20 04:22:00 - [26] They should make it so logoff drops the after-jump cloak (essentially the logoff initiates emergency warp out which is doing an "action" thus dropping the cloak and then the warp drive goes kaput as it tries to engage and finds itself in a bubble). Problem solved...
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.03.20 04:44:00 - [27] Edited by: Farrellus Cameron on 20/03/2007 04:40:47 NVM. ----------------------------------------------------
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 04:45:00 - [28] Originally by: Nalar Marnith Alright, so what you wanted was for people to agree with you, not discuss. There's no need to have a go at anyone who may not have a complete understanding of the mechanic. My apologies for misunderstanding the mechanic there. Incorrect - I was merely slightly annoyed by people posting things that they have made up themselves, instead of offering valid points onto the subject. Quote: I've never logged off in a bubble, nor had it happen to me so I'm not 100% on the mechanic. That's why you test things. Quote: Also, you're basing all this on an assumption yourself. It may be possible that your ship will try to warp when in a bubble, but be jammed the same way it would've if you'd had a point. Why would it? Jump into a bubble then try to press the warp button while cloaked. You will get a message about warp disruption zone bleh bleh, and you won't uncloak. So why would logging off be any different? Originally by: Humpalot They should make it so logoff drops the after-jump cloak (essentially the logoff initiates emergency warp out which is doing an "action" thus dropping the cloak and then the warp drive goes kaput as it tries to engage and finds itself in a bubble). Problem solved... No, they actually should just make it so that if you get aggressed while logged off you get the 15 minute timer, and make it so that if you log within a pos bubble you don't warp away from it. N.F.F. Recruitment
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.20 04:48:00 - [29] Quick summary for those who CBA to read: New game mechanic DECREASES rate of survival for following ships if they log off after jumping into a bubble: 1. Frigs. 2. Industrials or other ships with loads of wcs. 3. Shuttles. New game mechanic INCREASES rate of survival for following ships: 1. Cruiser sized and up Hope that makes sense. And imo, killing battleship > killing shuttle. N.F.F. Recruitment
Jenn Atreides	Posted - 2007.03.20 06:59:00 - [30] This will prevent people from logging as soon as they see the jumping notification appear. It works like this, Lets make up a fictional name say uh...Goonieswarm. The Goonieswarm FC tells everyone to get in jump range. Once in jump range he tells them to all jump and as soon as the jumping notification appears he tells them to log off. Then they all log on again and of and on and off and on and off. Then one person is told to log in and make a SS. Then the rest of them log in and that guy invites them as soon as they appear in local they warp to member and then go back to the camp and fight it or they proceed to POS where they open cyno and bring in dreads or whatever, ( just as a side note if they have enough notice the goonieswarm((fictional tm)) can get a thousand people together and do this thusly killing the node. We all know that the people jumping in get preference over the people camping, this too would effectively allow them to destroy the campers) So what this should do is prevent people from doing as above. If you don't emergency warp from inside a bubble then effectively they are inside the bubble as soon as they log during the jumping session change. So this should give the campers a field day in the killing department as all the goonieswarm ships would just decloak and sit there inside the bubble waiting to be shot at. This doesn't address the intentional node crashing event but if CCP actually fixed things rather then succombing to a knew jerk reaction they would build in a simple code that tells the player that they simply cannot log out during a session change. That would have fixed the illness rather then bandaging the wound. Jenn

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