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Boosting of logoff tactics a miscalculated side effect?

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Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.22 11:24:00 - [181] What if my ISP connection breaks every couple of hours. And what if my only other internet choice is 28.8 modem conection (yay for Pulse Code Modulation) that disscons every 5 minutes. So i should just not play EVE or any other MMO, right?
Kitiara Armitage Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.03.22 11:54:00 - [182] honestly I've always wanted to see a safety field added to gates so you can't activate weapons within or on anything in a 20km radius of it :P Gate camping is a lame tactic in and of itself, so when the campers complain about lame tactics being used against them, it's just amusing :P __________________________________
xHomicide Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.22 12:41:00 - [183] Edited by: xHomicide on 22/03/2007 12:38:11 Mechanic should be: Player clicks log out 1 minute counter displays on screen, the player remains ingane, watching his character. During this log out period if the player does anything or gets attacked the 1 minute counter is canceled. After 1 minute the ship disappears from space. When a player is agressed a 15 minute global timer is set. During this 15 minute period the player's ship will remain in space even if the player has logged out. If a player attempts to start the 1 minute logout process while they have a 15 minute agro timer a confirm/cancel dialog should inform them that their ship will remain in space for another 15 minutes. If a player attempted to log out at a gate: 1) They should start the 1 minute logout process 2) They should be attacked, canceling the logout process and giving them a 15 minute global timer Players would be fully aware of their 15 minute log out timer. They would be fully aware when their ship would and wouldn't disappear as they log out. If a player losses connection it would be treated as if they had logged out. A 1 minute logout process would be set. If they get attacked during this period a 15 minute agro timer is set. After 1 minute the 15 minute global timer would seize to update, leaving the ship in space for 15 more minutes, then disapear. Really a rather simple solution and the solution most MMOs use to logout/lagout. --- Razor CEI
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE The Foundation.	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:12:00 - [184] Originally by: Kitiara Armitage honestly I've always wanted to see a safety field added to gates so you can't activate weapons within or on anything in a 20km radius of it :P Gate camping is a lame tactic in and of itself, so when the campers complain about lame tactics being used against them, it's just amusing :P Gate camp is only way to have combat in game. Its not lame. If it was not intended feature.. why would be bubbles? If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
BluOrange Gallente Militis Fortuna	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:21:00 - [185] How's this for a fix? "Entering a warp bubble (by jumping, warping, or just flying in) counts as player aggression, and therefore starts a 15 minute aggression timer"
Gaius BaItar	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:37:00 - [186] To log or not to log off, that is the questionà I wonder how come CCP canÆt separate logging off from disconnects on a software level. How hard is to recognize a æquitÆ command and make the distinction between quitting and loosing connection. When you quit the game, you know you get a timer before your ship disappears, so you prepare this event. Having a warning timer on your screen would be even better. When you disconnect, itÆs out of your hands. There is no æquitÆ command, so the software æshouldÆ detect this and behave appropriately. IÆve never disconnected myself to save a ship and IÆll never do. I like Eve to be as close to reality as possible. Saving a ship by logging off is not a tactic you could use if you were in space æin real lifeÆ. But not everyone is like me. On the other hand, sometimes my client disconnects itself out of the blue. I have a fairly good internet provider, no problems with other games, but Eve is different and decides to eject me every now and then. Luckily it didnÆt happen during a fight. I hope this issue is under evaluation right now and weÆll get an answer soon.
Fanjita	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:52:00 - [187] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 22/03/2007 05:26:44 From the patch notes: Quote: Logging off inside a warp disrupt bubble (mobile warp disrupt or interdictor bubble) no longer triggers an emergency warp. Now we all know what happens if someone who is not aggressed logs out. His ship disappears within a minute, no matter if he gets aggressed within that one minute. Cloaking time is 1 minute, logoff timer when not aggro is 1 minute. Even though you can see the character after he logs off, he is not really decloaked (you can't lock). EDIT: Ok, so... Currently it is like this: [00:00] Character 1 Jumps in. [00:02] Character 2 Launches Interdictor Sphere [00:05] Character 1 Logs off and decloaks. [01:00] Character 1 Becomes Lockable by Character 2. [01:05] Character 1 Disappears. Character 2 has 5 seconds to kill Character 1. Here is a video kindly provided by Hoshi that shows what is meant. And this is how it was before the patch: [00:00] Character 1 Jumps in. [00:02] Character 2 Launches Interdictor Sphere [00:05] Character 1 Logs off and decloaks, starts to attempt emergency warp. [00:05] Character 1 Becomes Lockable by Character 2. [01:05] Character 1 Disappears. Character 2 has 1 minute to kill Character 1. Ok, so basically, now it is completely pointless to use dictor bubbles in 0.0. Because anyone who jumps into your dictor and is not aggressed can just log, and he will be safe 95% of the time if he logs really fast. This is a horrible exploit, I hope CCP come up with a fix /soon/. EDIT2: I just checked what happens when you log back in after you disappear in a bubble at a gate, you appear 1 million km away from the spot you disappeared at. So this entire patch makes the logging problem worse, and if you think about the LV incident with nodecrashes/logging etc, this will just make these tactics even more effective. - This paragraph is currently disputed, will need to conduct more tests. So in fact, even though CCP wanted to nerf logoff tactics, they boosted them in every possible aspect. The only situation in which this patch would help is if a heavily stabbed up ship which already has pvp timer jumps into your gatecamp. But the patch breaks ten times more than it fixes. EDIT3: Proposed Changes: 1. Make ship instantly decloak and become lockable if it logs after jumping into bubble. 2. Make ship which is currently not on a PvP aggro timer, receive a 15 minute timer if he is aggressed while he is already logged off. 3. Make ship without aggro timer disappear from space within 20 seconds. 4. Make ship which logs out in POS forcefield not leave it after logging, just like with an interdictor bubble. Discuss, but please watch the video (it was made after patch) before you post. We managed to hijack someones large bubble in pf the other night :) now a falcon jumped in and immediately logged off we all saw him no one could lock him when we finally got lock poof he vanished :( well thats a load of crap we thought the old logoffski is better now than before. we carried on camping got a few kills half an hour later the falcon logged back in and appeared in exactly the same place he logged needless to say hes off getting a new falcon and clone so if you hang around you can get them but not always a feasible option out in 0.0
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:56:00 - [188] Edited by: Ryysa on 22/03/2007 13:53:00 Originally by: Gaius BaItar To log or not to log off, that is the question… I wonder how come CCP can’t separate logging off from disconnects on a software level. How hard is to recognize a ‘quit’ command and make the distinction between quitting and loosing connection. Yeah right, then people will just hit a button in their firewall or plug the cord. Quote: When you quit the game, you know you get a timer before your ship disappears, so you prepare this event. Having a warning timer on your screen would be even better. When you disconnect, it’s out of your hands. There is no ‘quit’ command, so the software ‘should’ detect this and behave appropriately. What i wrote above. Originally by: Kitiara Armitage honestly I've always wanted to see a safety field added to gates so you can't activate weapons within or on anything in a 20km radius of it :P Gate camping is a lame tactic in and of itself, so when the campers complain about lame tactics being used against them, it's just amusing :P Ok, just a tiny fact for you. Most of eve pvp happens at gates, since they are natural chokepoints. Define gatecamping? Let's say you are moving with a 4 man roaming squad, 1 scout ahead. Scout jumps through, says HEY GUYS there's a raven on other side. Ok, so raven jumps into the squad, squad puts bubble, raven logs, he is invincible. Is that gatecamping? Honestly, stop derailing my thread, it has nothing to do with gatecamping. You are actually trying to justify exploiting, because you are bad at the game, maybe get better at the game using legitimate means (HI SCOUT???) instead of trying to exploit and cheat your way through it? I think I am going to go mental if I see one more "zomg camping is lame" comment here. This has nothing to do with camping. I started this thread and I really hate gatecamping, I think it's the most skillless way to pvp in eve, but it doesn't have to do anything with the fact that you are invulnerable in 0.0 if your enemy has an interdictor and you jump into it. If you want to discuss the "lameness" of pvp tactics in this game, then please start your own goddamn thread and whine there. N.F.F. Recruitment
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:02:00 - [189] Gatecamping greifers are lame. They should be bannished to Counter Strike.
jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:05:00 - [190] A Guy in a raven ctrl q'ed on me and some buddies today. We killed him anyway. Guess if your camp is that overpowered they will log, you may as well not use a bubble and just scram them instead. Or bubble the out gate. Or both gates... -- Latest Vid: Domination!
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:11:00 - [191] Originally by: jamesw A Guy in a raven ctrl q'ed on me and some buddies today. We killed him anyway. Guess if your camp is that overpowered they will log, you may as well not use a bubble and just scram them instead. Or bubble the out gate. Or both gates... Well that means that either the raven took forever to realize that he should log. Or you didn't have a bubble up. Pick one :o N.F.F. Recruitment
Idunyken Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:26:00 - [192] Edited by: Idunyken on 22/03/2007 14:23:27 A simple solution (not that I think it's likely to be taken into consideration while the devs are trying to solve this startup problem ): Currently ships that log get an automatic command to warp to a random location 1 million km away. I propose that the ship is given an extra command to increase to max speed JUST BEFORE being given the command to warp. This will have no affect on the warp speed if the commands come only a split second apart and will trigger a decloak if the ship had just jumped thru a gate. (edit for typo)
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:38:00 - [193] It decloaks already. That is not the problem. The problem is that the decloaked ship is not lockable for 1 minute, just like when you undock.
Idunyken Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:49:00 - [194] Originally by: Aramendel It decloaks already. That is not the problem. The problem is that the decloaked ship is not lockable for 1 minute, just like when you undock. It's 30 seconds, not a minute When you undock you become lockable the moment you do something like lock someone or try to move, whether it's been 30 seconds or not. My idea still stands.
Gaius BaItar	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:53:00 - [195] Edited by: Gaius BaItar on 22/03/2007 14:51:44 Originally by: Ryysa Yeah right, then people will just hit a button in their firewall or plug the cord. Of course they would. A dedicated logoffski guy would do anything to save his ship. Right now itÆs too easy. Simply close the window or press ctrl-q to escape a ætightÆ situation. ItÆs done in 1 sec. Why not make it harder? When you pull the plug, itÆs not only you who gets out of the game, but your alts too, if they share the connection. Any way to discourage this log off behavior is good, imo. IÆd say 1 minute timer before vanishing is a good compromise (a passive tanked ship could survive, though). All they have to do is start the timer when the ship becomes visible and can be targeted.
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:24:00 - [196] Edited by: Ryysa on 22/03/2007 15:20:58 I don't know about you. But I can block eve from using internet with 1 mouse click. Maybe you live in stone age? That without harming any other applications. N.F.F. Recruitment
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:28:00 - [197] sometimes you wonder if the features are tested before being implemented ------ Relaxed corp recruiting
Ryysa North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:35:00 - [198] Originally by: Splagada sometimes you wonder if the features are tested before being implemented Hehe QFT :P N.F.F. Recruitment
Mangus Thermopyle Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.22 16:11:00 - [199] I honestly have a hard time feeling sorry for the griefers when they cant kill enough miners and mission runners. If anything, high sec in empire should be made more safe, not less. And I dont speak for my own sake (I live in 0.0), but for the new players and corps who often dont even know what it means to be wardecced. The situation with bubbles and logging is different. Anyone who lives in 0.0 knows the risks, but chooses to live there anyway. If you jump or warp into a bubble, there should be no way to get out except manually flying away or fighting it out.
Gaius BaItar	Posted - 2007.03.22 16:26:00 - [200] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 22/03/2007 15:20:58 Maybe you live in stone age? Hmmà thanks for making me aware of that. BTW, is fire invented yet? 'Cause I have this idea about hitting two stonesà I agree with you, log off is easy to do, no matter how you do it. No need to shoot me for an idea, though.
Dr Slice OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.03.22 16:31:00 - [201] Ryysa's logic is difficult to refute here. It reminds me of something that happened at work today. I.T. worked on one of our machines to "clean it up" and improve performance. Afterwards, the computer was slower than ever before. Two thumbs up CCP
Fenderson OLE Mining Corp Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2007.03.22 17:16:00 - [202] i dont understand CCPs desire to obfuscate logoff/agression timers. Why not just SHOW PEOPLE THEIR DAMN TIMERS!!! that way you could be a little more liberal with it, and do things like making logging in a bubble give agro timer, because people would be able to know when they are aggrod and when they can log off. so give anyone who logs in a bubble an agro timer, and LET THEM KNOW THEY HAVE IT! sigs are for the weak
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.22 17:25:00 - [203] Originally by: Idunyken It's 30 seconds, not a minute When you undock you become lockable the moment you do something like lock someone or try to move, whether it's been 30 seconds or not. My idea still stands. You still miss the point. Yes, I know it's 30 secs when undocking. When loggin in a bubble however, it's not. But the priciple, "you see me but cannot lock me" is the same. Let me repeat: It decloaks already. That is not the problem. Got it this time? Not unlcoaking is not the problem. Not uncloaking is not the problem. Not uncloaking is not the problem. The problem is that you cannot be locked without being cloaked for 1 minute after you jump in if you log in the bubble. It's been described several times in this thread already. Read it up.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.03.22 17:52:00 - [204] I get the feeling the devs want to confuse us so nobody really knows how the timers work and not being able to fully exploit them. Ship lovers click here
Idunyken Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.03.22 20:41:00 - [205] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Idunyken It's 30 seconds, not a minute When you undock you become lockable the moment you do something like lock someone or try to move, whether it's been 30 seconds or not. My idea still stands. You still miss the point. Yes, I know it's 30 secs when undocking. When loggin in a bubble however, it's not. But the priciple, "you see me but cannot lock me" is the same. Let me repeat: It decloaks already. That is not the problem. Got it this time? Not unlcoaking is not the problem. Not uncloaking is not the problem. Not uncloaking is not the problem. The problem is that you cannot be locked without being cloaked for 1 minute after you jump in if you log in the bubble. It's been described several times in this thread already. Read it up. No, I do get that...let me try and get the wording right... From what I gather the reason that you are invulnerable when logging in a bubble after jumping a gate is because the ship has not been given any commands, the 'warp off' one you normally get is invalid cos of the bubble. Therefore the invulerable timer is still in effect. I know you still appear, I watched the video . If a command that is valid (such as 'increase speed') is given then the invulerable timer would be cancelled and the ship would be lockable. That any better?
Eksist	Posted - 2007.03.22 20:49:00 - [206] I've quickly read the pages in this thread so I may have missed it so get your knives ready... I'm interested in the situation where the attackers have managed to successfully aggro a player before they log off. Is it still possible to ctrl-q and log on an alt to make your main char disappear long before the 15-minute aggro timer is up? I'm very new and while I understand the frustration at people going poof in front of attackers before aggro, I'm actually more concerned about the escape mechanisms that exist if the attackers do manage to do everything right and successfully engage a target before they logoff (from a stealthed position for example). Does the get-out-of-jail-free alt relog still exist?
sakana Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.22 20:52:00 - [207] an untanked ship, even a BS doesnt take long to kill in a cruiser, its very easy to do so before they disappear...unless ofc their passive tanked :) ------------
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:25:00 - [208] I got the best solution. remove the abilty to place bubbles on gates, and then people won't be pansies and spawn camp gates. Problem solved.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:27:00 - [209] Originally by: sakana an untanked ship, even a BS doesnt take long to kill in a cruiser, its very easy to do so before they disappear...unless ofc their passive tanked :) You do know that as it is currently you have around 5 to 10 sec to kill the ship. And that includes the time to lock it. Unless you have enough ships there to pop it in 1 volley it will survive. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:29:00 - [210] Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 22/03/2007 21:29:30 "Gate camp is only way to have combat in game. Its not lame. If it was not intended feature.. why would be bubbles? " Total BS. There are plenty ways for combat in this game that doesn mandate camping gates. It is just that it takes effort and you have to actively play instead of sit on your arse listening to mp3's while you do homework. Look people are playing this game, PVP them where ever they are playing. If they are running missions try to hunt them down, if they are mining hunt them down, if they are traveling run them down, if they are ratting pvp them there complexes? get them there... If that isnt enough then whine to CCP to provide more places for pvp encounters to occur beyond zone lines ( which is all a gate is ). Really it is comical to hear people tell of their PVP in eve. "this falcon logs off on us while we are camping and a few hours later he logs into our same bubble camp that we been sitting at for hours and we kill and pod him RAWR!" Egad PVP is eve is truly pathetic.

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